Yes this is definitely, definitely true. It's just so tempting to use the full artwork because if you get lucky and get one perfect, then you can use it right away! But at least to start the process of dialing it in and knowing how much your printer will stray from dead-centre calibration, starting with a "wireframe" print or even just two rectangles is smart.
Why not save even more by printing both sides on 2 seperate sheets of paper and alingn them afterwards? You could even leave white pixels for alignment outside or were you drill later.
There is a saying that applies here: "There's a right way, and a cheap way. The right way is always perfect, but with enough skill the cheap way can be good enough."
Interesting! I have also experimented with a low-cost professionally printed vinyl, but I was never satisfied with how "solid" the black/opaque portions looked, they always seemed obviously backlit and washed out to me, kind of like the first test in this video. Did you get better results?
Another method I've seen is print the normal image on paper, then print the reversed image on transparency. You then line up the two with the transparency on top and both printed surfaces touching and glue them together. This gives you two printed layers right next to each other, so there's no "paralax", AND outer surfaces with no ink on them. You kind of "half-laminate" the print. It's also far easier to line up as you're not trying to make the printer do it.
@@68HC060 The point of the reversed image is that the transparency's "back" side, with no printing on it, becomes the outer surface. The normal image on the paper eliminates the need for a mask AND doubles the ink density the light shines through.
@@No1sonuk - That's how I understood it; however, if you print the normal image on the transparency and put the paper (mask) under it, I think you'd get a slightly better quality. I know it would probably only be a minor improvement (if any). The most important part is to get the ink on both sheets as close together as possible.
That CMY technique for extra density is a great idea. One caveat: some laser printers will be “smart” and save you toner and replace CMY with K. My older HP laser does that, and you can’t turn that feature off. I discovered that when printing stuff out for a digital pen. It sensed dots in the IR band. Black dots with blue text worked perfectly - the pen ignores the blue and detected the black. The manufacturer recommended using CMY for text and K for the dots. But this HP laser (2600? A common one) would see the CMY and replace it with K. Grey component replacement was the term.
I think I would try printing the mask layer on transparency film. You would need two or three to get the full black, but it is a method few people remember is out there.
This is interesting, I've seen a few comments like this and now that I think about it, I expect the Canon printer I was using was doing this to some extent too, although I definitely did notice a lot of difference in the texture and amount of light transmittance doing full registration-black.
@@bobsmith369 Good point. There was probably some magazine that rated printers based on how many pages they got per cartridge, and HP needed to meet that target, perhaps :)
Great idea! I would recommend doing the registration of both sides with only an *outline* rather than the full, solid black print. You'll save a LOT of toner ($) and it will line up perfectly a lot easier. I'm going to try it with 64# vellum paper rather than the thick white.
Thanks Michael, true that you can run a few tests with just an outline to save on toner, and then switch to printing full registration black once you've got it close to dialed-in.
And probably add second layer of acrylic sheet on the top to make protect printed paper from dirt and scratch. If the button threads make it possible. If not the bottom acrylic plate should have got bigger holes to fit the nut in.
@@thomasinlondon2849 The issue with using a 2nd sheet of paper is the thickness. Adding a 2nd sheet dims the backlighting a fair bit as well as deludes the white color more into "yellow".
I don't know when I will ever need to make a control panel, but I'm glad the youtube rabbit hole brought me to your video. I've been wanting to make some zero-clearance cutting guides for a few power tools and your idea to use the dollar store picture frames would be perfect! Thanks for sharing!
oh very true! For that application, I would definitely try sandwiching any guide artwork you want to print or etch inbetween two layers of the dollar store picture frames.
Quick heads up, when trying to get the duplex print to line up - DONT print whole thing out, just print small areas of corners etc . This will save time and printer ink.. I have got some great ideas from this to try something that might work even better than this - If i get it to work - Ill update this!
Whoa! This vid is 2 years old and I haven't seen it before?! Crazy because this was so good. Seriously. Am going to deep-dive your vids. Loved your presentation.
Cool idea! ...And if the trial and error printing of the flipped image on the reverse side of the paper is too much of an nuisance, perhaps just printing the second , B&W layer on a second page and stacking them would yield a good result, too.
I just had students reprint the design multiple times on the same face on transparency. It works really well and you don't need to worry about flipping/alignment. Ripping some of the diffusion layers out of dead lcd panels helps spread the light nicely too.
I would love to see this! Did you post results online anywhere? I did experiment a bit with transparency and acetate but never got good results, still never looked "opaque, solid material" always looked like "backlit movie poster" to me.
@@EricFergusonCinema I'm not sure I still have images as I subsequently moved to encouraging them to etch paint off with a laser engraver instead. One problem we had was getting good adhesion of the transparency to the acrylic, with spray adhesives we had. The other was cutting/drilling through the transparency neatly to put buttons in. It was doable, just tricky.
That's what they did on Star Trek sets. Inkjet on foil (multiple times if needed). If colors don't touch each other without black border you don't even need to print color layer, just put some pieces of colour film where you need color.
why not just print out the other side on a second piece of paper and press fit the two pieces between the acrylic? Wouldnt that be faster and cheaper as you dont need the trial and error? Also, its been a while since this video, is the second part going to happen soon?
One can also use multiple transparency sheets stacked on top of each other. This is what I do for making masks for homemade electronic PCBs (copper boards coated with UV-sensitive etch resist). One might combine these clear sheets with an opaque top layer.
@0:58 Just would like to point out he's not using a "Desktop laser engraver", he's using a air assisted Co2 cutter he picked up off ebay. So dont go out and pickup a cheap little desktop diode engraver and expect it to easily cut through acrylic or PCB's.
True that it's not one of the hobbyist diode ones, but it is indeed a pretty small unit that he's using. I believe he has a K40 which is about 20 inches deep, 30 inches wide. A Glowforge would also work, or an Xtool P2.
@@EricFergusonCinema Glowforge i would advise against. It's a extremely overpriced 40w tube. For what you would pay for a glowforge pro you could quite literally buy a 150w full sized industrial cutter.
Nice idea! You could even go a level further. Again, literally. If you sandwich the back-to-back printed sheet between 2 plexiglass layers, you could make the printed sheet removable, thus interchangeable. This could work if you want to have a multipurpose button box with different functions depending on the game, or space-/aircraft. You still need to make good and tidy cutouts on the top acrylic/plexiglass sheet and the printed sheet, though..
True! This would work especially well if you were building a panel with capacitive sensors, which will sense through the paper and acrylic and therefore require no through holes for panel mount components.
Thank you for acknowledging the warthog project ...I too am building a cockpit based on his designs and I must say it is fantastic. I have all the equipment .. Put everything aside and I will say. It is an incredible amount of fun to figure it all out and to put it all together. I only have one issue, and that is how to make the a o a indicator work on the a10c lol
Instead of printing on a single sheet, why not print the main design on one sheet, and then the black print on another sheet. Then you just layer them.
yes, this does work although lining them up perfectly and getting that glueup perfect can be pretty challenging, even a small difference in registration really doesn't look good. I saw someone take my process here and iterate on it it by doing two sheets and stapling the pages together first (outside of the area that would later be cut out) and thought that was clever.
@@EricFergusonCinemano he is right. The best way is to print on 2 different sheets and then spray glue them together. It is much easier to get to them to line up this way. You must print registration makes to make it easier. This is the method that graphic designers use to make physical mockups of things like magazines. 2 sheets with registration marks and then spray glue. Also illustrator is much better suited for this to keep things vector. Actually your design already has faux registration marks in it. The crosses you have there to center your drill. Just keep those crosses on both sides.
If you hit the plexiglass with some sandpaper it will diffuse the light a bit more too. Make it not as harsh. You'll still get some bleed unless you do use paint/laser combo, but that looks decent for a quick panel set up. 👍
Could do, although in my experience you can get pretty ideal results just by carefully managing choice of paper: if it's a heavy-weight stock with a very fine texture (ie not the cheapest copy paper), you'll get great diffusion. Then it's just down to how you space out the LED backlighting to avoid hotspots. Zero bleed with the print-both-sides technique shown in this video, but it's *very* close. Even a tiny bit less black toner than what I managed to get to with this print would pretty much ruin the effect by making the black regions feel subtly backlit. You can also make it bleed by blasting an unreasonable amount of light at it (think: holding it up to the sun at noon), but any amount of LED backlighting I tested worked perfectly. The biggest issue in the panel in this video is the shadowing from components under the panel, but that just comes down to designing the print more carefully with the physical size of the components in mind.
If you laminate the paper before mounting it can help in three ways. It prevents the spray glue from seeping into the paper and making blotches. It also gives the top surface a bright clear-coated look that also protects the image.
Thanks! Although nowhere near as impressive as your cockpit. I've paused work on this spaceship panel while I experiment with different materials to print on. Paper really does work extremely well but I worry that it won't hold up over time since there's really no way to wipe it clean (the toner-covered areas are fine, but anything white turns to pulp). So, waiting for a sample of this: www.riteintherain.com/printer-paper-20-pound#paper-colors_white_sizes_letter_packs_200-pack#8511
@@EricFergusonCinema I actually started my project using similar paper templates before I got a laser cutter, however I never tried backlighting them. Rather than glue the paper to the plastic, I had mine sandwiched between two pieces of clear acrylic.
@@thewarthogproject That definitely seems like the best way to really protect it, and actually I see some commercial sims are doing this now at flight schools, no doubt at least in part to make it easier to wipe down between users. I really think it sacrifices some of the realism though: adding any glossy coating breaks the realism and feels like an arcade machine. I'll keep searching for a perfect material that can run through a laser printer!
If you can get the registration to hold tightly, and you have a sufficient uncoated stock, you could put the paper in for another pass of the back side. Printers will limit themselves to not lay down 400% ink to allow each process to dry. 300-330% is the general limit; but your advice still stands to set the image to maximum value and make the printer limit itself as it wants.
Nice video. Although it is 2 years old, I wanted to mention yet another method of adding contrast to laser prints, on standard paper, vellum paper or different transparencies. I've made tons of offset print templates for less demanding product manuals this way. Simply put the print together with a cotton ball soaked in acetone under the low cardboard lid (we used the box in which vellum paper was packed in) and leave for about 5 minutes. The print contrast should be improved significantly, but of course you should optimize all other parameters before trying it.
This is pretty good. -You could likely also just print several masks on other sheets of paper and layer those masks and finaly put the front on top of them. -That would be an easy way to 'align' them - but remember that each piece of paper would dim the light further (which can produce a good effect or bad effect, so you'll need to experiment). If you go with the "alignment" style, just print an 'X' on each side of the paper until you have it dialed in, then you won't waste so much ink/paper.
Looks like an Artemis display! I did something similar using an inkjet printer printing on transparencies. I just printed 2 copies, lined them up perfectly together to assemble which made the dark deep enough. You could probably do the same thing with regular paper, although that might affect the transparency of your text, etc. Lots easier than trying to line up a double sided print though.
100% excellent tip about what to do, definitely a lot of improvement to be had in how to accomplish it, first of all, buy using a printing design software like indesign, giving you actual control over what is printed and how. but I love you explaining, subscribed!
May be printing cross hairs at 4 corners for alignment. Print the back and front design on separate papers. This method works for commercial press that layers one color at a time by using the cross hair for alignment.
Check out a material now sold by Tyco called Rayfast Raymark. This is available in A4 sheets, you print directly on to it, then you put it in an oven and the top surface is cured sealing in the ink and making it resistant to oils and solvents.
Interesting, so you just run the transparency/acetate through the printer again, and print toner right on top of a layer of toner? How do you deal with registration mistakes, or is it still "trail and error and a bit of luck" as in this video?
@not sure about if laser can do two passes, but ink should be able - unfortunatelly the slide things are one sided. With registration you just have to hope it’s pulling it in consistently
Also, look into cellophane sheets. You can get a pack of 200 sheets, 10 different colors for around $15. The. With some art knife work, you can make those colors POP. There’s also vinyl cutters like Cricut that you can get a deal on for secondhand.
WOW This is thinking outside the box at its finest. The light bulbs are going off where ever I look. The only thing I can think of is that no refreshments / Beer will be allowed near any of my cockpits lol Great stuff thanks for the video!
@@Dutch3DMaster I think this was an issue with some older desktop laser printers that couldn't get up to temperature, but it's much less of a problem now. The black toner surface on this print is reliably solid plastic, not powdery, doesn't smudge. Perhaps over time will break down?
@@EricFergusonCinema Not really sure if temperature was to blame honestly, the thing I have noticed is that laser printers have been getting fast at printing. My brother used magazine paper to do toner transfers for PCB etching, and the printer from 1994 we had printed a very deep black which adhered very well to the PCB material. When that printer went defective in 2012 we got a new one that printed a page incredibly fast (compared to the 10 seconds it took for the old one to output 1 page from the moment it started to leave the printer, the new one layed it down within a second). My brother has problems with the amount of adhesion on the PCB material ever since we have that printer and he suspects it's the printing speed that's to blame, along with economy modes that might still be active in firmware and which you can't switch off. That printer had serious trouble printing the transparent overhead projector sheets (in the sense that the print on it was incredibly vulnerable to even touching the print, let alone accidently scrape it with a fingernail), but a color laser printer I bought second hand has proven to be a whole lot better at it, I can rub my fingers on the sheets and even run my nails over them and the print stays on...
Hello, nice process, thanks for sharing. May U-I let you know that, unless you did it on purpose, the way you attacj your toggle switch is not OK. The washer with the tab is ment to be placed at the back of the front plate. The tab is originally bent and ment to poke into a hole drilled beside the main hole. The purpose is to avoid the switch from turning. Best regards, J.
Have you tried printing on 0.5mm (or thinner) sheets of abs? That is much more light dense, and does well for backlighting. Another technique to try is use a piece of (opaque) acrylic, and sandwich it between a top layer and bottom layer of the print. You might not need a bottom layer with opaque acrylic.
Maybe a stupid question, but If I've designed a panel in Fusion 360, how can I then design the graphics in Photoshop and have it align properly with the Fusion360 file? From what I can see, I can't simply export a Fusion sketch and then open it into Photoshop.
Absolutely great job Eric! This is awesome for prototyping and quickly developing something that looks decent. I will be recommending your video. Thanks for posting ✌✌
Another idea: If you only need black and white, then you could likely 3D-print black material onto the acrylic sheet. Again, remember that you want to print mirrored, because you'd want the shiny acrylic as the top. 😉 Edit: If you want 'white', you could fill with silicone - you can even just fill with some 'plastic' colors if you need to.
Another option for your light hiding could be to print just the gauge and buttons, cut them out, and marking them with a sharpie. Then tape over that area, put the guide back on, and cut around the edge. Now you got your gauges taped. Maybe a light sand with high grit and some matte black paint before removing the tape and applying your final print.
Really cool process! I use 1/16" aluminum to make my panels, but i LOVE the idea of backlit plexi. Can i suggest you check out Inkjet Waterslide decals? I'm not sure how smooth your color blocks would show up compared to that heavy paper.
Have you tried it with inkjet printers? I have seen people make photo masks for PCB manufacture with an inkjet printer and clear plastic sheets designed for inkjet. You could also just send the same sheet through several times printing the mask on the front instead of the back - that should make the alignment a lot easier.
Hey thank you very much. Very interesting way to get good results. One thing you didn't talk about : How do you actually backlit the panel ? I mean, what do you use and how do you put it at the back of the panel ?
Hi thanks for your comment! In this video all the backlighting is simply with a cellphone flash pointed upward at the back of the panel. That's it! You could achieve similar (probably better) results with LED strip lights. They come in adhesive roll and are easy to work with: just affix them to the bottom of any case or box. Deep picture frames work well, see here using an IKEA picture frame: artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/low-cost-weapons-panel-12255047
The best way (and the hardway) to make panels and gauges is using aluminium panels and use the silk screening method to print everything on the panel. It will look like the real deal. This method can be difficult and expensive but it's def worth it. I thought I just mention this although this method won't work if you need backlight panels.
I note the registration issue with printing the mask on the rear of the paper; would it be possible to print the mask NON-REVERSED on a separate piece of paper (which would thus be in-register), and then glue the two sheets together? The masking ink is where you want it (on the reverse of the first sheet, or at least at zero distance from it :-) ). You just have an extra layer of paper. It might be beneficial to use thinner paper for the second sheet.
This is a brilliant idea, i will absolutly try this for my next button box. How about the idea to laminate the print to make the surface more durable? You could use flat laminating film for that to keep the surface flat? Ever tried this?
Thanks! Yes, you need both layers to fully obsure the light and get a rich black background. One layer, even with 100% registration black, still looks somewhat washed out. Printing on both sides to build up two thick layers of black toner is the key to getting this panel to look "solid"
@@EricFergusonCinema But the question was: How would this work if I printed both layers on separate pieces of paper, and glued them together? Does the light still shine through properly?
@@peterwilhelmsson4168 still shines through, but the two layers decrease the amount of light dramatically. Perhaps doable with the right combination of papers, or with one layer of transparency.
@@peterwilhelmsson4168 Over on the Artemis SBS forums, there's a person building a panel right now using this method, but two sheets of paper carefully lined up first with a painter's tape "hinge", and then spray glued. It does backlight! Noticeably less light transmission than a single layer, but absolutely workable. artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/low-cost-weapons-panel-12255047?pid=1331872677
@@peterwilhelmsson4168 I have used overhead projector sheets layered 2 or even 3 times (in my case because the icons are black and the backlight area is either red or yellow/orange. (It's not for a flightsim setup, but for a bus dashboard). It's a proces that well...sucks because it's time consuming and it takes steady hands (which I do not have) but it worked.
How well does it work if you use lighter paper, but print the front and back on two pages? Could save a lot of time and printing on alignment, since you can just do each once and glue them together. Also, these are meant to be used. What do you do to protect that paper layer from wear? I could see clear spraypaint or maybe a thin coat of modpodge...
Wow. This is effing brilliant. Here's some thoughts...Have you tried using transparency material for inkjet/laser (clear plastic won't work - they make a special material for this)? The white areas in the artwork should actually come out transparent because there's no white ink in a printer. Ink is actually super expensive. One thing I would do is create an outline shape to use to line things up so you don't have to use a lot of ink until you work out the kinks. Just. Brilliant. 💯
Thanks! Yes you can definitely use a printable acetate transparency sheet as part of this process if that's the look you're going for, in this case I wanted white because that's generally how aircraft cockpit panels look: white lettering while viewed in daylight, but backlit-white at night when backlit. Definitely true that getting your printer settings dialed in with a wireframe design could save a lot of toner compared to running it full registration-black like I show in the video.
When you have a broke LCD screen take it apart. There is a sheet of light diffusion plastic in there. For the guys in the comments talking about light diffusers. Back yo the project... why not just print 2 or 3 sheets and placing them on top of each other ?
Great video. Thanks for the info. I'll be using this soon to create a button panel for DCS. So the trial-and-error process of lining up both sides of the print...what would you say to just using two pieces of paper then lining them up easily because they're both the exact same size? This could also have the added benefit of allowing you to use thinner paper because now you're doing two sheets instead of one. You wouldn't even need to flip the design in Photoshop. Just line 'em up with the printed sides both facing towards the user.
Love it, I hope you might consider posting a video or messaging me when you're done! Yes: the two-pieces-of-paper method does indeed work, it creates some fiddly questions about how to mount them to eachother accurately, but it does work. Just test lots of papers to get a backlit look that you like. When backlit, most thin copy paper looks, well, like backlit paper. Thicker higher-quality papers backlight more evently, which is why I started down the path you see in this video.
@@EricFergusonCinema Ok, I did a test using 2 sheets of regular old printer paper. It looks ok. I wasn't in a very dark room, so I'll have to see if there's bleed through when the lights are off. I'll make a video in the next day or two and share it here. Thanks again for the idea!
hello, I want to craft a VTOL RC aircraft this summer, but I don't know where to begin, especially about comuputer science, do I learn C++ program ? how much time does it take ?
Save ink/toner aligning by printing just the outline until you've dialled in your settings
👆bro uses 400% of his brain👍
Yes this is definitely, definitely true. It's just so tempting to use the full artwork because if you get lucky and get one perfect, then you can use it right away! But at least to start the process of dialing it in and knowing how much your printer will stray from dead-centre calibration, starting with a "wireframe" print or even just two rectangles is smart.
Why not save even more by printing both sides on 2 seperate sheets of paper and alingn them afterwards? You could even leave white pixels for alignment outside or were you drill later.
There is a saying that applies here: "There's a right way, and a cheap way. The right way is always perfect, but with enough skill the cheap way can be good enough."
Something to consider is most libraries have a 3d printer/ laser engraver/ vinyl cutter they let you use for free..
@@ralphnapierii1184 Not where I live lol.
That's really good
im not planning on building anything that uses this, but damn that is a great "good enough" solution.
thank you for sharing this.
I had the local print shop put my panel design onto vinyl advertising sheet stock. It's normally adheres to window glass. A1 width was £8.
Interesting! I have also experimented with a low-cost professionally printed vinyl, but I was never satisfied with how "solid" the black/opaque portions looked, they always seemed obviously backlit and washed out to me, kind of like the first test in this video. Did you get better results?
@@EricFergusonCinema It may depend on the printer type. An inkjet vinyl printer may not do as well as a dye sublimation printer, for example.
Another method I've seen is print the normal image on paper, then print the reversed image on transparency. You then line up the two with the transparency on top and both printed surfaces touching and glue them together.
This gives you two printed layers right next to each other, so there's no "paralax", AND outer surfaces with no ink on them. You kind of "half-laminate" the print.
It's also far easier to line up as you're not trying to make the printer do it.
holy crap this is actually brilliant! I need to try this.
@@akaHarvesteR th-cam.com/video/k8ooTohtTqM/w-d-xo.html
wouldn't it be slightly better to print the 'normal image' on the transparent and the mask on the normal paper ?
@@68HC060 The point of the reversed image is that the transparency's "back" side, with no printing on it, becomes the outer surface. The normal image on the paper eliminates the need for a mask AND doubles the ink density the light shines through.
@@No1sonuk - That's how I understood it; however, if you print the normal image on the transparency and put the paper (mask) under it, I think you'd get a slightly better quality.
I know it would probably only be a minor improvement (if any).
The most important part is to get the ink on both sheets as close together as possible.
That CMY technique for extra density is a great idea.
One caveat: some laser printers will be “smart” and save you toner and replace CMY with K. My older HP laser does that, and you can’t turn that feature off.
I discovered that when printing stuff out for a digital pen. It sensed dots in the IR band. Black dots with blue text worked perfectly - the pen ignores the blue and detected the black.
The manufacturer recommended using CMY for text and K for the dots. But this HP laser (2600? A common one) would see the CMY and replace it with K. Grey component replacement was the term.
I think I would try printing the mask layer on transparency film.
You would need two or three to get the full black, but it is a method few people remember is out there.
This is interesting, I've seen a few comments like this and now that I think about it, I expect the Canon printer I was using was doing this to some extent too, although I definitely did notice a lot of difference in the texture and amount of light transmittance doing full registration-black.
HP saving you toner by default ? Color me surprised !! Must be a feature that slipped through management.
@@bobsmith369 Good point. There was probably some magazine that rated printers based on how many pages they got per cartridge, and HP needed to meet that target, perhaps :)
Great idea! I would recommend doing the registration of both sides with only an *outline* rather than the full, solid black print. You'll save a LOT of toner ($) and it will line up perfectly a lot easier. I'm going to try it with 64# vellum paper rather than the thick white.
Thanks Michael, true that you can run a few tests with just an outline to save on toner, and then switch to printing full registration black once you've got it close to dialed-in.
Use two sheets of paper stuck together, a lot more efficient.
Right on! Was thinking two layers of vellum myself 👍
And probably add second layer of acrylic sheet on the top to make protect printed paper from dirt and scratch. If the button threads make it possible. If not the bottom acrylic plate should have got bigger holes to fit the nut in.
@@thomasinlondon2849 The issue with using a 2nd sheet of paper is the thickness. Adding a 2nd sheet dims the backlighting a fair bit as well as deludes the white color more into "yellow".
I don't know when I will ever need to make a control panel, but I'm glad the youtube rabbit hole brought me to your video. I've been wanting to make some zero-clearance cutting guides for a few power tools and your idea to use the dollar store picture frames would be perfect! Thanks for sharing!
oh very true! For that application, I would definitely try sandwiching any guide artwork you want to print or etch inbetween two layers of the dollar store picture frames.
Quick heads up, when trying to get the duplex print to line up - DONT print whole thing out, just print small areas of corners etc . This will save time and printer ink.. I have got some great ideas from this to try something that might work even better than this - If i get it to work - Ill update this!
how is your project going? Excited to see an update if you have made progress!
Everything I’ve been building in my head clicked in to place as soon as you showed the dollar store picture frames!! Thank you so much!!
Love it! What are you building?
Print it twice, glue it together. Less light shine through I guess. But easier to line up?
Whoa! This vid is 2 years old and I haven't seen it before?! Crazy because this was so good. Seriously. Am going to deep-dive your vids. Loved your presentation.
Cool idea!
...And if the trial and error printing of the flipped image on the reverse side of the paper is too much of an nuisance, perhaps just printing the second , B&W layer on a second page and stacking them would yield a good result, too.
But then first mirror the image. Otherwise it will not work.
I just had students reprint the design multiple times on the same face on transparency. It works really well and you don't need to worry about flipping/alignment.
Ripping some of the diffusion layers out of dead lcd panels helps spread the light nicely too.
I would love to see this! Did you post results online anywhere? I did experiment a bit with transparency and acetate but never got good results, still never looked "opaque, solid material" always looked like "backlit movie poster" to me.
@@EricFergusonCinema I'm not sure I still have images as I subsequently moved to encouraging them to etch paint off with a laser engraver instead. One problem we had was getting good adhesion of the transparency to the acrylic, with spray adhesives we had. The other was cutting/drilling through the transparency neatly to put buttons in. It was doable, just tricky.
One of these days I'll get around to making my own panel for KSP instead of having students make them.
That's what they did on Star Trek sets. Inkjet on foil (multiple times if needed). If colors don't touch each other without black border you don't even need to print color layer, just put some pieces of colour film where you need color.
why not just print out the other side on a second piece of paper and press fit the two pieces between the acrylic? Wouldnt that be faster and cheaper as you dont need the trial and error?
Also, its been a while since this video, is the second part going to happen soon?
Just over 2 solid years later, and it's still the last video of the channel. I really hope they weren't hit by the human malware going around...
Then the whites will be much darker. 1 Transparency + 1 Paper is the answer though.
Wouldn’t it be easier just to print two page
2 years later, still hoping for the next video. This was great.
Clever. Reminds me of the old star trek displays that Adam Savage covered.
One can also use multiple transparency sheets stacked on top of each other. This is what I do for making masks for homemade electronic PCBs (copper boards coated with UV-sensitive etch resist). One might combine these clear sheets with an opaque top layer.
@0:58 Just would like to point out he's not using a "Desktop laser engraver", he's using a air assisted Co2 cutter he picked up off ebay. So dont go out and pickup a cheap little desktop diode engraver and expect it to easily cut through acrylic or PCB's.
True that it's not one of the hobbyist diode ones, but it is indeed a pretty small unit that he's using. I believe he has a K40 which is about 20 inches deep, 30 inches wide. A Glowforge would also work, or an Xtool P2.
@@EricFergusonCinema Glowforge i would advise against. It's a extremely overpriced 40w tube. For what you would pay for a glowforge pro you could quite literally buy a 150w full sized industrial cutter.
This is what they did for the Star Trek TNG panels.
Nice idea!
You could even go a level further. Again, literally.
If you sandwich the back-to-back printed sheet between 2 plexiglass layers, you could make the printed sheet removable, thus interchangeable.
This could work if you want to have a multipurpose button box with different functions depending on the game, or space-/aircraft.
You still need to make good and tidy cutouts on the top acrylic/plexiglass sheet and the printed sheet, though..
True! This would work especially well if you were building a panel with capacitive sensors, which will sense through the paper and acrylic and therefore require no through holes for panel mount components.
Thank you for acknowledging the warthog project ...I too am building a cockpit based on his designs and I must say it is fantastic. I have all the equipment ..
Put everything aside and I will say. It is an incredible amount of fun to figure it all out and to put it all together.
I only have one issue, and that is how to make the a o a indicator work on the a10c lol
Instead of printing on a single sheet, why not print the main design on one sheet, and then the black print on another sheet. Then you just layer them.
yes, this does work although lining them up perfectly and getting that glueup perfect can be pretty challenging, even a small difference in registration really doesn't look good. I saw someone take my process here and iterate on it it by doing two sheets and stapling the pages together first (outside of the area that would later be cut out) and thought that was clever.
@@EricFergusonCinemano he is right. The best way is to print on 2 different sheets and then spray glue them together. It is much easier to get to them to line up this way. You must print registration makes to make it easier. This is the method that graphic designers use to make physical mockups of things like magazines.
2 sheets with registration marks and then spray glue. Also illustrator is much better suited for this to keep things vector.
Actually your design already has faux registration marks in it. The crosses you have there to center your drill. Just keep those crosses on both sides.
I love the old washing machine panel control design style. Great idea.
Eric have you joined the Star Wars Room Builders Group? There's 10,000 people who would love this content.
If you hit the plexiglass with some sandpaper it will diffuse the light a bit more too. Make it not as harsh. You'll still get some bleed unless you do use paint/laser combo, but that looks decent for a quick panel set up. 👍
Could do, although in my experience you can get pretty ideal results just by carefully managing choice of paper: if it's a heavy-weight stock with a very fine texture (ie not the cheapest copy paper), you'll get great diffusion. Then it's just down to how you space out the LED backlighting to avoid hotspots. Zero bleed with the print-both-sides technique shown in this video, but it's *very* close. Even a tiny bit less black toner than what I managed to get to with this print would pretty much ruin the effect by making the black regions feel subtly backlit. You can also make it bleed by blasting an unreasonable amount of light at it (think: holding it up to the sun at noon), but any amount of LED backlighting I tested worked perfectly.
The biggest issue in the panel in this video is the shadowing from components under the panel, but that just comes down to designing the print more carefully with the physical size of the components in mind.
Awesome results without getting a dedicated laser engraver. Subbed to see the evolution of those instruments.
If you laminate the paper before mounting it can help in three ways. It prevents the spray glue from seeping into the paper and making blotches. It also gives the top surface a bright clear-coated look that also protects the image.
Outstanding work!
Thanks! Although nowhere near as impressive as your cockpit. I've paused work on this spaceship panel while I experiment with different materials to print on. Paper really does work extremely well but I worry that it won't hold up over time since there's really no way to wipe it clean (the toner-covered areas are fine, but anything white turns to pulp). So, waiting for a sample of this: www.riteintherain.com/printer-paper-20-pound#paper-colors_white_sizes_letter_packs_200-pack#8511
@@EricFergusonCinema I actually started my project using similar paper templates before I got a laser cutter, however I never tried backlighting them. Rather than glue the paper to the plastic, I had mine sandwiched between two pieces of clear acrylic.
@@thewarthogproject That definitely seems like the best way to really protect it, and actually I see some commercial sims are doing this now at flight schools, no doubt at least in part to make it easier to wipe down between users. I really think it sacrifices some of the realism though: adding any glossy coating breaks the realism and feels like an arcade machine. I'll keep searching for a perfect material that can run through a laser printer!
Looks great! Is there any reason not to use two sheets glued together, if alignment is so finicky though?
I was thinking this the whole time.
If you can get the registration to hold tightly, and you have a sufficient uncoated stock, you could put the paper in for another pass of the back side.
Printers will limit themselves to not lay down 400% ink to allow each process to dry. 300-330% is the general limit; but your advice still stands to set the image to maximum value and make the printer limit itself as it wants.
Nice video. Although it is 2 years old, I wanted to mention yet another method of adding contrast to laser prints, on standard paper, vellum paper or different transparencies. I've made tons of offset print templates for less demanding product manuals this way. Simply put the print together with a cotton ball soaked in acetone under the low cardboard lid (we used the box in which vellum paper was packed in) and leave for about 5 minutes. The print contrast should be improved significantly, but of course you should optimize all other parameters before trying it.
This is pretty good.
-You could likely also just print several masks on other sheets of paper and layer those masks and finaly put the front on top of them.
-That would be an easy way to 'align' them - but remember that each piece of paper would dim the light further (which can produce a good effect or bad effect, so you'll need to experiment).
If you go with the "alignment" style, just print an 'X' on each side of the paper until you have it dialed in, then you won't waste so much ink/paper.
Looks like an Artemis display!
I did something similar using an inkjet printer printing on transparencies. I just printed 2 copies, lined them up perfectly together to assemble which made the dark deep enough. You could probably do the same thing with regular paper, although that might affect the transparency of your text, etc. Lots easier than trying to line up a double sided print though.
I was looking for some print transfer videos, but i think I've landed on a cool spaceship 😅❤ thank you bro
You could also fiddle with printer settings to apply more black.
I strongly agree! -But it might not be a good idea to print on the same sheet twice, as it would go "wavy", when it gets too wet from all the ink.
Really well done. Love the idea of "pretty good for a $hit ton of less money and time"
100% excellent tip about what to do, definitely a lot of improvement to be had in how to accomplish it, first of all, buy using a printing design software like indesign, giving you actual control over what is printed and how. but I love you explaining, subscribed!
Great approach; thanks for sharing it. I'm borrowing this method for SimRacing and building a centre console.
May be printing cross hairs at 4 corners for alignment. Print the back and front design on separate papers. This method works for commercial press that layers one color at a time by using the cross hair for alignment.
Check out a material now sold by Tyco called Rayfast Raymark. This is available in A4 sheets, you print directly on to it, then you put it in an oven and the top surface is cured sealing in the ink and making it resistant to oils and solvents.
Btw laser printers can print on transparent slides - works for making pcb masks. Or use the slides for ink jets, then you can even print it double.
Interesting, so you just run the transparency/acetate through the printer again, and print toner right on top of a layer of toner? How do you deal with registration mistakes, or is it still "trail and error and a bit of luck" as in this video?
@not sure about if laser can do two passes, but ink should be able - unfortunatelly the slide things are one sided. With registration you just have to hope it’s pulling it in consistently
Also, look into cellophane sheets. You can get a pack of 200 sheets, 10 different colors for around $15. The. With some art knife work, you can make those colors POP. There’s also vinyl cutters like Cricut that you can get a deal on for secondhand.
Loving the idea so far. Would love to see you wiring it up. I'm definitely looking to make a budget button box so im following along.
Velum layers might be useful too. Cool idea! Thanks for sharing ✌️
I found my way here from the Artemis Forums and am so looking forward to the next vid in this series!
WOW This is thinking outside the box at its finest. The light bulbs are going off where ever I look. The only thing I can think of is that no refreshments / Beer will be allowed near any of my cockpits lol Great stuff thanks for the video!
Haha yes that's a concern; although you can spray it with a few coats of cheap acryllic clear and that'll protect it.
You'll probably want to seal the print anyway to avoid smudges, black toner has a habit to not stick very well...
@@Dutch3DMaster I think this was an issue with some older desktop laser printers that couldn't get up to temperature, but it's much less of a problem now. The black toner surface on this print is reliably solid plastic, not powdery, doesn't smudge. Perhaps over time will break down?
@@EricFergusonCinema Not really sure if temperature was to blame honestly, the thing I have noticed is that laser printers have been getting fast at printing.
My brother used magazine paper to do toner transfers for PCB etching, and the printer from 1994 we had printed a very deep black which adhered very well to the PCB material.
When that printer went defective in 2012 we got a new one that printed a page incredibly fast (compared to the 10 seconds it took for the old one to output 1 page from the moment it started to leave the printer, the new one layed it down within a second).
My brother has problems with the amount of adhesion on the PCB material ever since we have that printer and he suspects it's the printing speed that's to blame, along with economy modes that might still be active in firmware and which you can't switch off.
That printer had serious trouble printing the transparent overhead projector sheets (in the sense that the print on it was incredibly vulnerable to even touching the print, let alone accidently scrape it with a fingernail), but a color laser printer I bought second hand has proven to be a whole lot better at it, I can rub my fingers on the sheets and even run my nails over them and the print stays on...
im happy some people are making tutorials in the ACTUAL life. Most of the people make tutorials for games like minecraft
Hello, nice process, thanks for sharing. May U-I let you know that, unless you did it on purpose, the way you attacj your toggle switch is not OK. The washer with the tab is ment to be placed at the back of the front plate. The tab is originally bent and ment to poke into a hole drilled beside the main hole. The purpose is to avoid the switch from turning. Best regards, J.
Have you tried printing on 0.5mm (or thinner) sheets of abs? That is much more light dense, and does well for backlighting.
Another technique to try is use a piece of (opaque) acrylic, and sandwich it between a top layer and bottom layer of the print. You might not need a bottom layer with opaque acrylic.
Thankyou for helping us poor people. Impressive stuff, convincing enough for me and I'm picky.
Nice work! Looks linke someone is preparing for Artemis :D
Yes! Planning on using this method for a bunch of different projects, but the panel you're seeing here is indeed for Artemis SBS.
What game were you making your panel for?
Did you ever make a video about the Arduino?
Maybe a stupid question, but If I've designed a panel in Fusion 360, how can I then design the graphics in Photoshop and have it align properly with the Fusion360 file? From what I can see, I can't simply export a Fusion sketch and then open it into Photoshop.
Absolutely great job Eric! This is awesome for prototyping and quickly developing something that looks decent. I will be recommending your video. Thanks for posting ✌✌
Another idea:
If you only need black and white, then you could likely 3D-print black material onto the acrylic sheet. Again, remember that you want to print mirrored, because you'd want the shiny acrylic as the top. 😉
Edit: If you want 'white', you could fill with silicone - you can even just fill with some 'plastic' colors if you need to.
0:16 where you get 2$ laser printer?
Another option for your light hiding could be to print just the gauge and buttons, cut them out, and marking them with a sharpie. Then tape over that area, put the guide back on, and cut around the edge. Now you got your gauges taped. Maybe a light sand with high grit and some matte black paint before removing the tape and applying your final print.
This was a truly inspiring video, thank you for sharing! so, can’t wait to see the spaceship you’re working on!
Really cool process! I use 1/16" aluminum to make my panels, but i LOVE the idea of backlit plexi. Can i suggest you check out Inkjet Waterslide decals? I'm not sure how smooth your color blocks would show up compared to that heavy paper.
Have you tried it with inkjet printers? I have seen people make photo masks for PCB manufacture with an inkjet printer and clear plastic sheets designed for inkjet. You could also just send the same sheet through several times printing the mask on the front instead of the back - that should make the alignment a lot easier.
Thanks for this info, it's very useful. When are you going to upload the electronics portion of this project?
Hey thank you very much. Very interesting way to get good results. One thing you didn't talk about : How do you actually backlit the panel ? I mean, what do you use and how do you put it at the back of the panel ?
Hi thanks for your comment! In this video all the backlighting is simply with a cellphone flash pointed upward at the back of the panel. That's it! You could achieve similar (probably better) results with LED strip lights. They come in adhesive roll and are easy to work with: just affix them to the bottom of any case or box. Deep picture frames work well, see here using an IKEA picture frame: artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/low-cost-weapons-panel-12255047
The best way (and the hardway) to make panels and gauges is using aluminium panels and use the silk screening method to print everything on the panel. It will look like the real deal. This method can be difficult and expensive but it's def worth it. I thought I just mention this although this method won't work if you need backlight panels.
I note the registration issue with printing the mask on the rear of the paper; would it be possible to print the mask NON-REVERSED on a separate piece of paper (which would thus be in-register), and then glue the two sheets together?
The masking ink is where you want it (on the reverse of the first sheet, or at least at zero distance from it :-) ). You just have an extra layer of paper. It might be beneficial to use thinner paper for the second sheet.
This is a brilliant idea, i will absolutly try this for my next button box.
How about the idea to laminate the print to make the surface more durable? You could use flat laminating film for that to keep the surface flat? Ever tried this?
This very very clever! I'm gonna use this.
Awesome!!! Im about to start a simulator build and this is the route I think I'm going to take
Nice ! I'm sad to don't have the next videos :)
Awesome idea with amazing results!
Is there a reason to do a double sided print instead of two layers of paper?
Thanks! Yes, you need both layers to fully obsure the light and get a rich black background. One layer, even with 100% registration black, still looks somewhat washed out. Printing on both sides to build up two thick layers of black toner is the key to getting this panel to look "solid"
@@EricFergusonCinema But the question was: How would this work if I printed both layers on separate pieces of paper, and glued them together? Does the light still shine through properly?
@@peterwilhelmsson4168 still shines through, but the two layers decrease the amount of light dramatically. Perhaps doable with the right combination of papers, or with one layer of transparency.
@@peterwilhelmsson4168 Over on the Artemis SBS forums, there's a person building a panel right now using this method, but two sheets of paper carefully lined up first with a painter's tape "hinge", and then spray glued. It does backlight! Noticeably less light transmission than a single layer, but absolutely workable. artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/low-cost-weapons-panel-12255047?pid=1331872677
@@peterwilhelmsson4168 I have used overhead projector sheets layered 2 or even 3 times (in my case because the icons are black and the backlight area is either red or yellow/orange. (It's not for a flightsim setup, but for a bus dashboard).
It's a proces that well...sucks because it's time consuming and it takes steady hands (which I do not have) but it worked.
Could you use an edge lit plexi glass sheet (like they use for front lit displays like the kindle paperwhite) instead of the light box?
How well does it work if you use lighter paper, but print the front and back on two pages? Could save a lot of time and printing on alignment, since you can just do each once and glue them together. Also, these are meant to be used. What do you do to protect that paper layer from wear? I could see clear spraypaint or maybe a thin coat of modpodge...
Amazing!!! We will wait for the next step!!
About a decade ago I found an "iron on" foil that only attatches to the black ink for the rear to make it completely opaque
How about printing your mask layer on laser acetate sheets, if you can still find them? Registration can then be trivial.
thx for the idea, i will definitely try it out in my current projekt
I would love to see what you build!
Nice work. Thanks for sharing 👍
Awesome technique, thanks for the great tip!
Awesome, glad to see this is already shared on our buidlers group!
nice method. missing the follow up video.
That is fantastic!! Thank you for sharing your methodology!
Excellent idea and thanks for sharing
Did you ever finish your space ship panel?
Wow. This is effing brilliant. Here's some thoughts...Have you tried using transparency material for inkjet/laser (clear plastic won't work - they make a special material for this)? The white areas in the artwork should actually come out transparent because there's no white ink in a printer. Ink is actually super expensive. One thing I would do is create an outline shape to use to line things up so you don't have to use a lot of ink until you work out the kinks. Just. Brilliant. 💯
Thanks! Yes you can definitely use a printable acetate transparency sheet as part of this process if that's the look you're going for, in this case I wanted white because that's generally how aircraft cockpit panels look: white lettering while viewed in daylight, but backlit-white at night when backlit. Definitely true that getting your printer settings dialed in with a wireframe design could save a lot of toner compared to running it full registration-black like I show in the video.
I saw another method which does this for the back layer.
That's fantastic! love it!
Regular desktop printer, or a laser jet printer?
GREAT stuff!!!!!!!!! Thx for sharing!!!
When you have a broke LCD screen take it apart. There is a sheet of light diffusion plastic in there.
For the guys in the comments talking about light diffusers.
Back yo the project... why not just print 2 or 3 sheets and placing them on top of each other ?
Great video. Thanks for the info. I'll be using this soon to create a button panel for DCS. So the trial-and-error process of lining up both sides of the print...what would you say to just using two pieces of paper then lining them up easily because they're both the exact same size? This could also have the added benefit of allowing you to use thinner paper because now you're doing two sheets instead of one. You wouldn't even need to flip the design in Photoshop. Just line 'em up with the printed sides both facing towards the user.
Love it, I hope you might consider posting a video or messaging me when you're done! Yes: the two-pieces-of-paper method does indeed work, it creates some fiddly questions about how to mount them to eachother accurately, but it does work. Just test lots of papers to get a backlit look that you like. When backlit, most thin copy paper looks, well, like backlit paper. Thicker higher-quality papers backlight more evently, which is why I started down the path you see in this video.
See here for an example of someone using the two-sheets method: artemis.forumchitchat.com/post/low-cost-weapons-panel-12255047
@@EricFergusonCinema Ok, I did a test using 2 sheets of regular old printer paper. It looks ok. I wasn't in a very dark room, so I'll have to see if there's bleed through when the lights are off. I'll make a video in the next day or two and share it here. Thanks again for the idea!
Part 2 and day now right?
Why not print the back mask on a separate sheet and glue them together?
Great tips, thank you! Are you planning on making that arduino button tutorial? I look forward to more!
What about backlit film for printers? Would you still have the same problem with the light bleed in the black and other colors?
Great work!
hello, I want to craft a VTOL RC aircraft this summer, but I don't know where to begin, especially about comuputer science, do I learn C++ program ? how much time does it take ?
Wow, that is awesome, thank you 🙂
You are a genius! Thank you for this great inspiration!
how about printing 2 pages and stacking? bottom page with no color just white? or 3 pages? no alignment issue?
qual tipo de papel é usado?
eu fiz e ficou como o da sua primeira imagem!