Making a Riser Block | K&W Facing Borer Upgrade | Part 1
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2022
- We are starting the upgrades for our Kitchen & Walker Horizontal Facing Borer! First up we need to make the riser block that will be used to raise the column on the facing borer. In this video we show the step by step of machining up the hollow bars that will be the supports for the bolts in the riser block. We then assemble and weld all of the plates together that make up the riser block. We also need to mill the surface of the top and bottom plates perfectly true to keep the accuracy and surface area for when the column is mounted onto the riser block. To do that we are going to be using our 1950s SIP Hydroptic No 6 Jig Borer. It is the first job that we will be using the jig borer for in the workshop and as we expected it performs beautifully!
WATCH NEXT: Making the new bolts • Making BIG Hex Bolts |...
Unloading & Tour of the Kitchen & Walker: • We Have NEVER Seen Thi...
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It's the first job we're doing on our jig borer and it's definitely not watch parts 😅 Let us know in the comments how you think it went! 😎👍
WATCH NEXT: Making the Big Bolts th-cam.com/video/J4Yy6oD1nis/w-d-xo.html
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Great Video but could we have a bit less "music" next time? There is nothing better than the sound of grinding and sizzling.
G'day Kurtis, Karen and Homey great video as always and awesome project. Have a good weekend mates
@@joegibbs448
How can they not be after being turned?
@32:00 PSYCHO! hahahahaa! I really can't tell if I'm hearing the machine, or some subtle music edit.
I was wondering what your supplier used to cut parts plasm water jet or other?
I really enjoy the respect Kurtis has for his back. He really avoids needlessly lifting heavy shit.
Speaking from my experience you will never be the same physically after a severe back injury, kudos to Curtis for not lifting heavy weights needlessly
Karen's videography and editing skills are killer. She has the vision to see the final edit up front and get the footage to make it happen. Fantastic!!!!
Agreed, very nice touch and gives us a precise, close look at your handiwork
Karen's videographer skills reflect her professionalism in her craft, beauty and brains great combination
I love how you guys are like the only channel that does bloopers at the end of each video. I love it!!!
Yeah I haven't seen anybody else doing that. It's awesome
I know this is the first channel that has ever done the bloopers. I love the cursing too! That’s keeping shit real!
I love your use of the steady rests (bar rests, whatever you want to call them lol) when welding. When I was back in college learning welding and fabrication, we were taught to weld free hand, with nowhere to rest your arm. This is all well and good, and it taught you great accuracy.
When I started my fist job out of college, there were three other apprentices and myself, all vying for the same job. I decided I needed an edge over my colleagues, and started using steady rests. My welds were always spot on. The other apprentices took one look at me and turned their noses up. Amateur they called me. We don't need them. Suffice to say, after the 6 months probation, they all got let go, and I got the 4 year apprenticeship.
I wondered about what that was for when Kurt first pulled it out, then it made sense to me.
I should have one like a sliding T-square to help mine out. And an on-site tutor!
Use every advantage available!
I try to use props whenever I can when welding. Mainly because I damaged my right arm in a wreck in 03 but it's always handy.
I'm just a hobbyist but using clamps or anything really to have a place to rest your arms when welding is a great idea. It's something I picked up from watching this channel and IC Weld. There is no reason to make things harder for yourself than they need to be. Work smart.
You learn to do things the hard way so you can if you have to but it's stupid to make it hard for yourself when not necessary. Just like shooting, you learn to shoot from any position if necessary but obviously you always use the most accurate one you can, you don't shoot standing if you can shoot prone.
Karen's photographic skills continue to impress. How does she have the time to do all the other jobs whilst editing out Kurtis's swearing? Love the welding skill.
This is why we don't make more videos 😂
@@CuttingEdgeEngineering Be quicker just to beep it all out... more fun too!
She’s pointing the camera where the action is. And hitting rec before he talks, and stop after he talks or thr action ended...
That's not swearing, that's what Australian sounds like ... I should know ... 😄
@@richardmeyer418 Unfortunately youtube doesn't like our aussie language... kunts.
There are a few people on youtube that actually make my skills improve and you're definitely one of them. Much appreciated.
One of my favorite minigames is “how’s he gonna flip that?”
Pretty sure you could give Kurtis a forklift and a sling, and he could flip the pyramids.
Did you see him flip the coin with just the forks?
It’s always nice to be able to have a piece leftover. You’ll never know when you might need it. Found that out dozens of times. 1:19 AM here in Montana watching my favorite machinist.
Agreed! Thanks for watching very early there
Your neighbor here in Idaho.
It's 1:30 am PDT in the Northwest Corner of Washington.
I used to live in MT. Now retired in the Philippines and it’s a warm 83F here at 5:00PM. Glad to see how this machine really works - definitely not wrist watch parts.
02:10 Watching from Northern California. Yep, best machining channel on YT!
Welcome back “Man of Metal”. I wait all week for this video, and you have never disappointed! 😉👍🇦🇺
Hope you enjoy this one!
He is. No tin in him though.
That scene with clock in background and speeding the play process was an excellent idea. Love it !!!
Curtis is a welding Robot, never seems to make a mistake
Congrats the both you on here big the channel has gotten in 2 years close to 10,000,000 views all up, 440,000 subscribers!!
It’s cool to see amazing Aussie channel killing it 🤘🏻🇦🇺🤘🏻
Gday Kurtis and Karen, definitely an industrial riser block, it was good to see the jig borer in action, the first cut showed there was very little warping in the top plate after it was welded up, awesome video as always, have a great weekend mate, Cheers
Hey mate, yeah only removed about 1mm each side and cleaned up nicely 👌 will hopefully get some time to do the next part of the upgrade soon! Cheers enjoy your weekend too mate
Every time I watch a video I learn something new, thank u for sharing ur knowledge with us. This is what the internet was made for not some stupid tic toc dance.
Pay attention young folk u just might get an education.🇺🇲
3:01am and getting to see new parts for the facing borer. Can't wait to see this machine in action in the future. More options means more work and more opportunities for us viewers to learn about your craft and retain a deeper understanding of machining.
Hey mate, that's bloody early for you there. Thanks for watching & supporting the channel!
This gentlemen never failed to impressive me with his engineering skill. As usual the ending is the best.
At first I was thinking "Man, 27mm bolts that long are going to be a pain to get and hella expensive..." Then I remembered Curtis could whip up a set of those out of scrap laying around in his sleep. Awesome video as always, loving the new music you're adding Karen!
1st Karen is the best camera/photographer/editor on TH-cam!!!! Also love the single swing of the ballpeen to straighten the plates out. Miss that sound.
Been watching your vids for a while now and am really impressed by the quality of Karen's camera work, editing and the overall production values. Always fascinated by the projects you work on, as it gives a really great insight into metal fabrication. I'm a Chef in Michelin level dining, so obviously this dramatically improves my capabilities... 😀 👍
Such a riser block may be just what you need to get to the Michelin 2-star level ! 😉👍
Well obviously if you’re going to raise the bar in fine dining, you need a way to safely support it
Shut up you blokes you're making me hungry.
@@TonyFromSydney Go hit up Nat, you champion, he'll sort you out fella. He's local to you 😵
10:14 in Germany. The weekend is starting! That said - may everyone have a good one!
I know you are not the type to build flimsy, lightweight stuff Kurtis - still I was surprised how massive that block is. Built to last, like it should be.
Jawoll. Agreed😎
&Greetings von se Dschörmens😂🤠
Built ridged to give high precision and repeatability.
I'm afraid, Karen gets her birthday presents wrapped in 2mm steel sheets ....
@@pmfx65 5 mm, 2 mm is too flimsy for her presents and she might get a peak before opening time!
@@pmfx65 No problem, she just has Homey open it for her.
Some of the best welding I have ever seen! Kurtis is like an artist with a brush using that Mig gun! Love the photography; it shows exactly what we need and want to see. Great video, guys! 👏👏👏
Thanks very much 😀
@@CuttingEdgeEngineering i'am fully agree...
The post production on this is awesome! Hats off!
I really enjoyed watching that big old machine milling that riser block. It's so cool to see those old machines that were built to last forever still doing what they were designed to do. Kudo's to Karen for her excellent filming and editing. Well done!
Workmanship and editing skills never fails to impress, two diamonds in the rough for sure.
Hey kurtis, I’m that guy.
I’m a welder in nyc and I would like to suggest that next time put a pipe in holes to prevent movement or shifting,
Cheers mate,
That guy
Awesome work. Love watching a skilled tradesman doing his thing.
16:05 Kurtis, when I was working on the building of a Bridge, welding the assembled plates (+90mm) of each module... I noticed about how each corner where 3 plates on different planes meet, were designed with a "rathole" 🐀 to avoid the corner, just like they always do on shipbuilding at shipyards.
Since then, each and every corner where 3 sides meet, I try to have a "rathole" to avoid ending all the welds there, and avoid massive tensions and cracks forming on that corner.
May not seem necessary for every case, but if able, it's a nice design to include when ever possible.
Cheers from Spain.
Adding to this comment, again based on shipbuilding, I'd have thought there would have been some round holes, say 150 mm dia. for access so the top plate could have been welded on the inside.
I assume, becase everything is in compression additional welding of the top plate was deemed unnecessary.
Bob
@@robertlevine2152 That's a great idea, and a nice explanation!
Talking deeply into it: People use to think that "ratholes" main use would be to be able to weld below the corner... but the main structural purpose it's to avoid having a 3-sided corner with a concentration of welds.
I've seen "ratholes" of only 2in/5cm for plates of around 100mm thickness, which badly let you weld it below the corner (may be with Stick Welding).
Without having a corner, and a concentration of welds, not only you avoid the crack formation on the corner due tension... it also makes the structure less rigid, more flexible, and able to deform instead of cracking, so important safety measure!
About the 150mm holes, I know which you mean, the ones to pass your hand with the torch to inside already assembled "cubes".
Similar to those, there are others big as 1m, intended to go inside "rooms" behind panels already installed.
All this it's so interesting for a welder, from a structural design point of view.
Welders can learn a lot from Shipbuilding and Bridge Building, or any other big structure exposed to high fluctuating forces.
Welders who come from making Buildings or Yellow Goods, make a lot of misstakes about how Ships have to be welded to be able to resist those dynamic forces from the sea.
I've extended too much, but that's becouse this theme it's a passion to me!
@@samos_sainz I am too familiar with ratholes. They do limit weld concentration in corners. On ships, particularly in wet spaces you must wrap the welds around ratholes. I spent my career as a naval architect and marine engineer working with tankers. On oil or water tight bulkheads the welds are complete, similar to what Kurtis has done for his riser.
This discussion, I would wager, is unimportant in that it is a riser on a stationary machine. My guess is that the only load the riser will see is compressive, from the weight. There should be little or no dynamic loading. I doubt very much if there will be anything that will cause fatigue.
From my experience with ship machinery foundations and alignments, Kurtis may find it difficult to mate the riser with the existing borer. Even though he machined the riser "flat" and "parallel", there's no guarantee that the borer is milled to the same plane. Normally you shim machinery to get proper alignment. It is difficult to align large flat surfaces like the riser. For large machinery, i.e. main engines, a poured resin, such as Philadelphia Resin, is used.
Bob
@@robertlevine2152 I'm impressed for your career trayectory... and I'm glad with you for having the oportunity to talk about all this.
It's my passion, so I enjoy it every time I learn more of it.
Grateful, Robert... for this talk with you.
Regards from Spain.
Wow great convo guy's👏
Kurtis, as always, love your exquisite machining, and Karen's fantastic video footage. Can't wait for part 2.
I love being able to see the wheels through the welding mask
That jig borer has got to be one of the top ten hobby shed mills of all time. Maybe top five!
Watching the jig borer in action was a treat, just because she is old doesn't mean she can't do a good job. I've never seen such a modification before so I find this very interesting, so I'm eagerly waiting for part 2. Nice to see the sun has returned to the gold coast, we had a week of hot weather in Wales, but the rain and clouds have returned. Good machining Kurtis, nice videoing Karen and good sniffing Homey, take care and be well.
Always a treat to see those old machines getting use out of them, instead of getting tossed for scrap.
Also I think we need an “Ah Fack Off” mug, inspired by the bloopers. Have a great weekend you three!
More than one,an f off train,f off rain and many others.
@@mathewritchie Why not make a complete set so that you can choose a mug to suit your mood on the day? Or for when visitors drop in for a cuppa, each person knows which is their mug?
@@markfryer9880 my thoughts exactly.
@@markfryer9880 Make sure the mugs hold at least 500ml (preferably 600ml+) and I'll buy a set or two!
It's amazing how these old machines work so perfectly
Incredible how a plastic sling can take all that weight. Riser block looks amazing
Compared to the many other videos I watch on you tube your method of recording and editing is quite good. I have learned much watching your vids and thank you for them!! BTW, thanks for not hitting us with blaring music. Great work!!
Karen's video production skills have risen to professional levels. I am really inspired to work on improving mine now.
Karen has really been stepping up her game with the production quality! I really liked the split screen and the shot where the camera was attached to the lathe tool slide. Cool prespective. Carl does his usual magnificent job describing the job. No matter how tired I am on Thursday night/Friday morning (show comes up at midnight in Arizona), I stay up and awake to watch this weeks adventures in machining.
I agree, she has natural talent. I've noticed another channel attempt to copy her style, that channel is the getting ready, to get ready in case you need to be ready. :)
@@jamesdrake2378 That has to be one of the most convoluted channel description that I've ever read! I have no idea what to even look for to compare their inferior work to Karen's
@@mooseflunky4569 hint, a type of nuclear weapon plus 79 .
@@jamesdrake2378 it's been a week, and I still haven't figured this out. 😕
@@mooseflunky4569 Who cares.
What a brilliant idea grinding that old breaker bar into an alignment punch. I am going to do that with one of my broken tools that I couldn't bring myself to throw away.
Righto, guys! Here are some feelings I get when I watch your videos, really really happy, pleased, chuffed (British), delighted, elated, ecstatic, euphoric, exultant, jubilant, rapt, thrilled. Love the content. Give you guys a thumbs up everytime!
Morning Kurtis, I have been fabricating & machining my entire 40+ year career, I started out in machine building, then went into over the road construction truck fabricating, now I'm in Drive Train Development for one of the big three, it amazes me the knowledge that you have in welding material together, it's a science to you, with me it was, "hey, we don't want it to break"!! Very nice job Kurtis!! Y'all be safe!!!
God Bless!!!
6:17 That's an amazing camera angle! 😲
Karen, as creative as always... always newer than ever!
By the way, on the previous video (Shipping Container Shelter Pt. 2), I liked so much that you were the protagonist... giving your voice to the video, explaining the process.
You have to try that more often...
We love you, Karen! 🥰
Cheers from Spain!
Not only an amazing Cat Engineer, now a K&W Fabrication Engineer. Amazing
Great job. Welding/machine. Kurtis.
Karen Wonderful job on filming.
Sunset in rain great one. Homeless watching the property.
Noon here when I started watching today. Thankyou all have great day stay safe an healthy
Wow Kurtis, you weld like a boss!!! I used to do the same fabrication and welding some odd 14 years ago. Can say I really miss it looking at you working.
We also made big crane pedestals (50 mm thick, 300 Tons) and windmill masts, generator encasings (20 meters x 6 meters) etc. etc. I used to weld with 1,6 mil gauge wire, 80-20 mix (cheap buggers 🤣) occasionaly hitting in excess of 300Amps and sometimes had to lay down an A 20 weld. It's all "Z" now, I know. I now work at a repair shop at Schiphol where it's all thin gauge steel and weld not so much any more but they know if it has to welded for eternity they give it to me🤤. Nice to see someone putting so much quality in their work!!!
Greetings from Noord Holland, The Netherlands.
Btw...nice touch with the clock!! And I didn't know Würth also had an Australian division!! We have all of our stuff by Würth here.
Hey mate, cheers for the support always great to connect with a fellow machinist. Once a machinist, always a machinist as they say. Take care mate 😎👌
2:30 AM. Was hoping for a upload from CET.
I think you made it strong enough.
Karen's video work is amazing and the editing process is awesome.
I do miss Homie getting to open his mail.
Enjoyed the show and keep em coming.
he has had some packages arrive this week so he will probably be opening mail in the next video 😂🐾
The clock in the background of the timelapse is a great touch
Last shot of the rain while the sun sets brought back memories, i lived in Vic during 04 to 08 and that was such an awesome sight, smell and feeling. Aussie sunsets were awesome then add a good downpour at the end of a long day ..... 👍
Goddamn, that's real magic editing there Karen!! Bloody great job there! Love the slow effect and the drop in. You kicked it out of the ball park! Love the video, definitely got me engaged all the way through!! It's 2:20am here in Idaho, USA 🇺🇸 looking forward to part 2!
I came for Kurtis's solid craft and wasn't disappointed but Karen you're next level. Dual cameras, split screens, carriage cam, and now animations! Your edits get tighter each week, too.
The visual effects from the weld...COOL!
The clock in the background is a touch of class! Thanks guys
Crikey! I nearly missed the Hydroptic. It's Friday arvo and that means Kurtis and Karen. EXCELLENT work guys! "Is that my tea towel"? Comedy GOLD!
hey mate, good to see your comment here glad you enjoyed this weeks vid 👍
Been following this channel and I have to say a big Well Done to your lovely camera lady for getting in on all the difficult angles and following the actions! Thanks
Got that surface finish looking like a factory new Haas table 👏 👏
Also like to mention your forklift driving skills are top notch
We used to build frames by laser cutting an opening to weld, just like you did but the only difference is that we would make there was a piece of plate stick out in the slot. Just like a puzzle. Some times the assembly would stay together pretty strongly even before being welded.
These little animations in Solidworks? take quite a while to do, just for us viewers.
I really appreciate the worksmanship, keep up the good work!
I was so excited for this video. I’ve been so eager to see the Hydroptic in action. Did you guys ever think you’d amass nearly half a million subscribers in 2 years. You’ll be at a million before you know it.
We had no idea we would get so much support worldwide 🤯
@@CuttingEdgeEngineering When you keep putting out quality content like this, it is no surprise really.
You are the true definition of a Master Craftsman!
Brilliant as usual. You guys certainly get some biblical rain in your part of the world.
That’s one heck of a riser block. I’ve made a few for woodworking bandsaws and once for a column on a drill press, but the scale of your riser block is next level, but then again the piece of machinery that is being raised is next level.
I love your design, and I’d say it went together very well.
I’m looking forward to the next video.
Cheers from Tokyo!
Stu
Riser block, or launch platform for SpaceX!
Brilliant once again. I was surprised at how little pulling there was after welding, judging by the first pass on the Hydroptic.
Thanks to all three of you. It's a great start to my weekend here in Yorkshire, UK.
I don't think that Space X meds anything that heavy.
Doing the layout in CAD then sending it to your supplier is an excellent process. Very simple ...the slots in that one piece is excellent design.
I don't know why but watching lathes, mills and jig borers cut metal is so goddamn satisfying and hypnotic. It's almost as fascinating as watching a glass blower do his magic.
Nice bit of modelling on riser block, coupled with some precision fabrication, many don't realise how accurate fabricators can work to 👍😎.
Sequential welding is the key 🔑.
Great work from Karen, and a not too shabby fabricator 👌.
Thanks for sharing and best regards from the Black Country UK 🇬🇧
Awesome to watch a machine so well built that it’s a piece of history and to see it get put to such good use.
Parting tools are gnarly. They handle so much tool pressure, thanks geometry.
Love the Sip. I ren em in the 70ies and early 80ies. Now days it's all CNC. Watching you run one was prolly the 1st time I've seen one make chips in 35 years.
i get the feeling that is what a kitchen table looks like at you guys' gaff. Great vid, thanks for posting.
Reattached bases to two boom cylinders (my biggest ones yet), made and installed two front driveshafts of an 8R 410, I think it´s beer o´clock and time to watch someone from the other side of the world do the same thing I do for a living. 😁
Cheers guys, have a great weekend.
Best MIG welding photography I've seen.
The tacks to the beat of the sound track was pretty bloody well done.
When you build a coffee table you build it to last! 😄 Nice to see the new machine doing what it does, the intersecting patterns from the leading and trailing edges are very nicely uniform. I look forward to seeing the work on the borer!
Excellent work on the design and build of the riser block, and to see the big Swiss Jig Borer in action was a real treat. As always, I watch and try and take away what I can and apply it to my much more mundane projects in my little garage. All the best, Mart in England.
Years ago, due to a brain issue they put me out to pasture. Now I fabricate thru Kurts hands thru these videos.
Gods Speed Mate ! Karen does wonderful video & editing. Hey, is that my Tea towel?
hey mate thanks for watching you take care
That riser block is a credit to your skillset Kurt .The jig borer was an awesome buy .
Curtis, I am amazed how much you apply yourself to be very knowledgeable about metallurgy. Not your typical machine shop with a motto of knock her down 10 and weld er up! That really impresses me along with the pride you take in your work. I am an electrician of 35+ years and I tell you I feel you in the amount of pride, care and attention you invest in every job, even those for your own shop. I feel so encouraged to see a young man with the passion and grit to do his best every time all the time! It is exciting to watch the jobs move forward, This project is particularly inspiring in that it seems to be coming right out of your head onto the computer and into reality! What a thrill to see the computer rendering become a reality! I am a fan be encouraged and keep on welding!
The quality and consistency of your welds Kurtis are top notch! I truly respect your craftmanship and attention to detail. It is no wonder you are so successful at what you do and your repeat business.
I'm a computer nerd, I don't know anything about machining, but I got my CEE t-shirt!! Proud to wear it!
Nice camera work on turning the hollow bars. Variations on a theme makes the repetitive work easy to watch.
And I have to say I think your most vital piece of machinery is that forklift.
I love the little animation put in! That's awesome!
Yay thanks for commenting about that! 😁 Karen
The extra clamp for the steady hand is a great hack. I will remember that when the next project is on👍
do whatever you can to get comfortable 👍
Work smart, not hard
makin’ parts for the machine that makes parts on the machine that makes parts to make parts, love it! 👊👍👍
The loading and unloading with the forklift are the scariest parts 🫣
Once again you have shown an advanced knowledge of materials and how to assemble a valuable component to improve your capability to serve your customers.
Kurtis, Glad to see you using Spray Transfer, so much cleaner with little to no spatter. As you probably noticed the higher heat with spray transfer can eventually overheat an air cooled mig gun. I had to go to a water cooled gun when welding 3/4" with 0.052 wire. As always great video
I never knew I wanted to see the deburring tool in slow motion.... Pretty cool shot.
Well I learnt something… I bought a job lot of tools from a bankrupt sale and I had no idea what the hand tool with the swively head was for. Now I know, for debarring internal edges. Your videos are great to watch. Keep posting.
Absolute top job on this Kurtis, way cheaper than a casting (if you can even find someone to do that now) or a solid billet and way lighter. I reckon once you change out the dull cartridges on that cutter head you'll barely even notice tool marks on jobs at all especially after you get some experience running the jig borer.
Hey Kurtis - while I am exceedingly fond of Boker knives, I've had a Buck for over 20 years and it's still great. - This was a terrific build, really looking forward to seeing much of the borer in action. The hydroptic workout was awesome!
Making it work. If a solid block is too costly, we'll just fabricate a hollow riser.
I love it!
Finding a way and implementing it!
Please keep the vids coming!
Thanks guys! :)
simple philosophy, Adapt, Improvise, and Overcome
Gotta believe that Isaac @ICWeld would approve of those weld beads! Love the clock in the background!
I like it. It has a classical beauty to it. Was gonna say you should fill it up with concrete, but since you faced it, it's a bit late for that. None the less, it should be quite a strong neck on account of the cylinder spacers. Nice job and great film work!
I wondered how far I'd have to scroll down to find someone mention concrete, I had the same idea.
Hell yeah, great to see the SIP in action and even better that's it's making a part for another machine. All the best.
Closeup view of the soldering is amazing!
Hello, I am a fan of your videos. I am surprised by the level of technique that you have, also the wonderful tool that you have
my most sincere congratulations
Carlos Eduardo from Colombia South America
Thank you very much!
I appreciate you placing the clock for the time-lapse, I thought you made really good time on the project and thought to myself just before you mentioned that you burned a half a spool of wire I'm like damn he's probably burned a full roll of wire! You know Kurtis you could probably make some money using your skills welding 😉🤣 Lol... you're a damn good metal burner!
A work of art as usual Kurtis! I've run a few auto welders and weld robots, your welds would embarrass a most of them! That new Hydroptic facing machine is sweet, going to be a vital machine in your shop. Bravo to the video crew for following this piece so expertly! Well done......you too Homeless! Have fun. 3:50 am SE Missouri.
When you have a multi part series, the work warrants multi parts, unlike some others who just drag out work for extra content. Thank you for that and greetings from the NJ Bayshore. I forgot to say good camera work and I've noticed that some other channels have given CEE the highest form of a compliment, that is copying the techniques you two use.