Fake Black Belts: We Need Belt Standards - Kama Talk
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ม.ค. 2025
- Professor Dave and Ryan talk this time about fake black belts and how we need a belt standardization.
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I got a Brown Belt in Shaolin Kung Fu in 9 months... It has taken me 3 years in Gracie Jiu Jitsu to get a 1 stripe Blue Belt. I threw the Brown Belt away... It became completely meaningless. I cringe when I hear about whole families being black belts after 2 or 3 years in Tae Kwon Do or whatever other martial art. With Jiu Jitsu, you can't fake it. You either know what you are doing or you don't and you have to constantly prove it on the mats!
+Jason B, exactly right!
Youth to Adult belt transition is probably arbitrary. in the past 4 months at my son's academy Iv'e seen 3 sixteen year old's turn that age and start taking classes with the adults. All of them had been taking youth classes before. 2 of them started as white belts and one was started as a blue belt. There are two others that are about 12 that have been training with adults as well, who wear their youth belts. from what I've heard the highest transition that can be awarded going from youth to adult at 16 is purple, and 19 is the young age for black belt,
I would like to add that these two 12 year olds have been training for 5 plus years, plus their fathers ( one Black Belt and the other a 4 stripe Purple) are with them and do the techniques with them. Pretty much everyone knows them and works with them the same as they would a smaller training partner. One of the better blue belts is a 17 year old that weighs about 150 pounds and can pretty much thrash every other blue belt there.
At KJJ, we run kids through the traditional white/yellow/orange/green belts. At age 16 and above, their next belt change will be to a blue (or if they're extraordinary, a purple). I've had a 9th grader begin KJJ and start in the adult class. Upon completion of the white to blue curriculum, I put him straight to green. At 16, Prof Dave told me to switch his belt out to blue (I was going to keep him at green as if it were his blue and skip to purple when the time came), instead. I have two 11th graders who still have orange belts because hey aren't ready for blue yet.
We begin to have kids transition into the adult class at 9th grade, unless they're particularly large vs the juniors' class, then we'll bump them up earlier. Still wearing kid belts, though.
The problem with belts in ANY Gung Fu style is: they don't have standards. If your school is using belts, then it's something your Shifu set up, so when you tell us you are a brown belt in "Shaolin Gung Fu," it tells us nothing to the proficiency.
The use of Belts doesn't necessarily make your school bad, but for most schools and styles, Brown is the colour right before Black, and sometimes before Red; so the fact you earned it in 9 months is highly suspicious. You may be at a McDojo.
I have a black belt. Bought it at wal-mart. It keeps my pants up with devastating efficiency.
Forget belts. Do jiu jitsu because you love jiu jitsu. It's simple and complicated and a beautiful art.
+werywerywile, we tell that to every person outside our school who ask about rank.
Exactly!
I agree. Just roll. belts are just pretty decorations.
I agree and dissagree. I had a striking background before starting Jiu-Jitsu. I hated the belt systems in the striking arts cause they weren't a measurement of skill WTF TKD for example. I agree belts shouldn't be the goal but they are a good measurement of skill in Jiu-Jitsu.
It keeps people encouraged & whether literally everyone is willing admit it or not a sense of accomplishment is important part of human nature.
They are both sitting with their legs in triangles, lulz.
I find myself doing the same all the time. It’s very comfortable probably has to do with the innate ability of sitting down with a form of base and hip relaxation for sure.
I love my white belt! its tattered, beaten up, and well used. I thankfully get to wear it all the time! Love your historical videos as well.
Worn out belts are the best! Bummed my dawg chewed up my fave worn out belt last year. 😢🤬
+Kama Jiu-Jitsu
they are, they tie well, smell horrible, and remind you of all the times youve been hip thrown on your rear end by a belt grip. I still even like to wear my old gi tops that are torn and tattered. hope your dog was able to digest whatever he chewed up....
What you now?
I dedicated 19 years training and teaching but I don't know what a blackbelt is anymore. I am a purple who was given an opportunity after a year at a new school to skip brown, work on a few specific things and test for black. I was only a purple because I taught MMA for 6 years and stopped formal BJJ training for myself. I was even offered help to open an affiliate school. However due to a family emergency I had to move states away so none of this came to fruition. I have continuously been offered to fly back and visit to test however I never took this kind professor up on the offer. I know that most people would kill to still have this opportunity but for me I'm torn. Time has passed, I'm 46 and I have stepped away from BJJ for years. I see the changes and hear of the latest moves etc. I'm from a different era and I wonder now am I still of a blackbelt level? I have gone to visit schools lately and I see the changes first-hand. I am of direct Carlson Gracie lineage and I sought out one of his oldest blackbelts (now a Coral) thinking I would find the old way again. I was wrong, things were being taught for points during the class. After class, I asked him about this and told him what I was thinking . He said its what people want nowadays, the latest moves and medals. In conclusion, I will stay what I am, a purple. I have no desire to be part of this, the message of jiu jitsu is lost and the meaning of having a blackbelt is gone in my opinion.
You are right, there needs to be standards etc. There also needs to be a refocus on fundamentals and understanding that a student having a blackbelt is a representative of his teacher and jiu jitsu. Not just a future employment opportunity or something to brag about.
+R W, that's sad to hear. I (Ryan) just heard the same thing Wednesday night about another Carlson, Sr coral belt who was training some guys and was only focusing on teaching competition concepts, including calling out points. Maybe that's only to prepare for an upcoming tournament? I'm sure they're not all like that... i hope they're not all like that...
The foundations are nvr changing, look for ab academy that has the fighting jiujitsu method with solid foundation of jiujitsu for self defense. You'll be fine, the new moves, in my view, are due to the lack of foundational techniques being taught, to counter a solid attack, e.g. berimbolo instead of proper guard attack and maintenance to overcome obstacles of a guard pass etc...
I hope I do not come off in a bad way but I'm going to be open with you guys and preface by saying that many times what I type does not come out the best because for communication in person I depend heavily on inflection which of course is not present with this medium. I hope I do not offend anyone as I like the Kama channel very much and have much respect for anyone who would turn down a promotion after 2 decades in the game (you very likely perform at the black belt level with that much mat time) Ok onto my thoughts.
in BJJ we always hear (and usually say ourselves more then a few times) "check your ego at the door" but we can't let it just be a lipservice catchphrase. Just like we pride ourselves on our belts carrying the meaning of the skills it takes to earn them our words must also carry the meaning they seem to imply or they are as shallow as those of the booing fans when a fight hits the ground at an mma event. In my opinion, deciding for someone else what is or is not a worthy goal for THEIR training is the height of ego. As far more experienced martial artists it is fine to determine the best ways for them to accomplish the goals they set for themselves within the martial art, but deciding for them what goals are good or bad is not what we are there for. Student 1 wants to lose 25 pounds to take stress off of his heart, student 2 wants to feel safe walking to their car alone at night, student 3 wants to try it out because they have heard good things, and student 4 wants to chase medals and get into MMA. Which of them are wrong? None of them! All of those goals are perfectly acceptable within the tent of BJJ. So if people want to teach in a way that tournaments are a big focus that should be fine, and if other people want to teach in a way that they look at defending attacks from behind that should be fine. And to the guy who refused the offer of the Black Belt promotion, consider that maybe you were right to do so for one because it is what makes you feel comfortable but also because a black belt is a teacher and a leader, and leadership is best done by example. If you disagree with the school as it is, train there but show them that finishes mean something. Remind them that submitting someone means all their points are meaningless. Maybe you can spark the change you would see in that particular gym if not the entire world. I try not to talk this much but I am pretty passionate about this. I was hurt by a desire to focus on nogi and was pretty much brow beaten and out voted into effectively only training in the gi and as a result I spent years and a good few thousand dollars developing a skillset that I didn't really want to a respectable level and am mediocre at the skillset I wanted.
Principles and concepts never change regardless of the individual technique they're disguised as. You may get surprised or tricked by a move you've never seen (due to a specific grip, way the opponent moves, etc) but it won't trick you more than a few times at most as long as you make an effort to understand it. If you're of a high enough level, I'm sure you'll find similarities between it and a technique you already know.
This topic is the reason why I decided to train at a Gracie School, because I know that what ever rank I can get, is legit. Even in the white belt levels, one can be sure, that the aquired skills are real.
A solid foundation of jiujitsu for self-defense/fighting using jiujitsu is what makes a black belt it's the gold standard in gracie jiujitsu.
All the Gracie family members know jiujitsu for self defense/fighting, and can use this foundational jiujitsu in sport jiujitsu competitions readily and easily....
Hi,
I'm loving all your videos. Great information.
I run a small training group in my town as a purple belt and we focus on the Self Defense / Vale Tudo aspects of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. I do have a couple of students that compete occasionally and do well even though we don't train differently for tournaments. My question and video request is about sandbagging. For example, I was at a tournament watching some lightweight white belts compete and noticed a guy just crushing his competition, my student included. I was amazed at his level and then I overheard someone on his side claiming "oh yeah he's won this division 3 years in a row"
Now does that seem right?. This is a yearly tournament and this would be his 4th year as a white belt.
What is your position on sandbagging like this? How long should a person be held at a certain rank.? Average time to promote and some basic requirements? Especially for someone who focuses on Self Defense Gracie Jiu Jitsu
Remember training in Karate as a kid and it was all about getting the next belt.. my training these day I see a belt holds my gi together I train to learn the techniques
there are two big problems I see with standards for black belts. first is settling on what they would realistically be and second is when someone is so old they have all the knowledge but lost a good bit of the ability do you tell them they have lost their black belt?
I suppose you could circumvent that by saying well once you meet these standards you are a black belt and you can never lose it but I still see the first problem as nearly insurmountable to be honest.
the only standard that should be is to quote the lineage, at the minimum tell people who made you a black belt. this should deal with fakes easily enough and if one particular person is putting out crap black belts well.....that info would get around at some point.
Doesn't help when Rener Gracie is giving out Blue belts to online students!
Rener Gracie can do as he pleases.
What he is doing is correct ,why? Because it uses belts to what they truly mean ,an indicator that you learned a specific number of techniques not an indicator of skill
Key words ...blue belt.
It actually has a Specific belt name, that signifies that you have completed the "30 something" techniques Combatives portion of their curriculum. Its not an official Blue Belt.
I’ve been training in karate for 15 years and it took me 12 years to achieve my black belt. I have just recently received my 2nd degree, and it would have taken me a lot longer to get it if I hadn’t made it a serious life style and hadn’t trained like crazy for it. It should take dedication to receive a black belt.
I've submitted several black belts at a blue belt level and they were all much older guys. When they rolled with people similar size / age they they do really well. Both are world champs. One just won Worlds in their division. A 65 yr old black belt is going to struggle with a super strong blue / purple belt. That's just the truth.
Secret formula...
Took me more than 10 years of hard hard training to get to black belt in karate. Now kids the age of 5 are getting their black belts. That's just how it works and times are a-changing.
You are you and what you know is inside and that is not an affiliation or a belt or a stripe. You learn for yourself.
7:43 I think what the idea you were trying to get at was that the Black Belt is only a Black Belt in certain positions and maybe a White in others and a Purple in some. It happens a lot, people get focused on certain techniques and positions that they like to play at that they sometimes neglect other techniques and positions. I once knew a guy like that, he was a Purple Belt and was really good at leg locks and passing guard, but the guy struggled to put lesser ranked people into an armbar.
There was a 3 stripe blue I use to train with who I personally watched tap 2 black belts and a brown in the same night. He toyed with purples. Now, 5 years later he is purple. I agree there needs to be a universal standard.
The problem is that its hard to gauge technique when people can compensate with athleticism. For example a 65 year old black belt woman who stands at 5'1" and weight 110 lbs might have great knowledge of technique but might get tapped out by a 25 year old 6'3" and 265 lb male white belt just because the white belt is so much larger and stronger.
My professor got his black belt from Romero Jacare Cavalcanti, one of Roll's blackbelts. What do you think of Alliance blackbelt standards? Heavy on the competition focus I suppose.
+Nathan Higgins my assumption, is they know self defense, coming down from Jacare.
Nathan Higgins hey we are practically cousins. My professor also got his black belt from Jacare.
Hear me out.
My old next door neighbour used to dance at the royal school of ballet. When she was stood talking to you her feet where always in position. As I grew (in now 6'4") shed some times be on toes whilst talking to me. Dancing was in her muscle memory
I see the same thing with how both of these guys sit. Getting people in triangles is muscle memory for then. Oss!
On the sport side bjj belts really only show what level an athlete competes at. The Gracie academy actually has a standardized test simulation that determines if a blue belt is awarded, so in that case the belt signifies competence in skill set with regard to self defense.
And started judo at age 18 got a blackbelt at age 23
Blue Black discussion - good point - New Person in the door ( Black Belt Judo 6 years / Wrester 8+ years solid experience ) - He starts as a BJJ White belt and transitions to Blue belt in a year or 2 +/- yet s/he may have 6-10 years of ground fighting under his belt ( BUT - as he's not done his time to refine to BJJ Methods s/he transitions slowly through the belt system ) , BJJ Blackbelt may well be challenged ( possibly beaten by this blue belt ).
I love these videos because the topics are on point!!🙏🙏this video is on the ball.💯💯💯
Thanks for the comment!
I agree professor. There had to be certain standards to be a black belt.
In the traditional arts you would see people create their own style instead of gaining rank through legitimate means. Then you see them promote themselves to the top ranks.
Isn’t that what Helio and Carlos did?
I agree with this, and ten Nicky Rod showed up, and Cole Abate..... Exceptions that prove the rule I suppose
Nicky Rod was already an accomplished wrestler. A LOT of overlapping knowledge and skills.
How do you feel about school’s run by Carlos side of the family? I currently attend a Carlson Gracie School our Professor was belted by Grand Master Carlson. The only thing Ive come to notice in my travels, is that there isn’t a self defense curriculum in any of the Carlson affiliate’s. Our Professor comes to our location once a week, as it’s in the same state; just 45 mins from the main school. Our location is run by a brown n Purple belt. I’ve honestly have been thinking of starting Ryron and Rener’s combatives as I did that in the military, and working my way towards a Gracie University Black Belt for self defense. while continuing my everyday training at the Carlson school and towards that black belt. What are your thoughts on multiple avenues of instruction in those forms. And would that not legitimize my training in the future?
If your school doesn’t offer what you want to learn, it’s up to you to learn it where you can learn it.
Don't blame those who wear the "fake" belts..blame those who startet something without real structure, or without a "standard" way of grades..I used to do tea Kwon do, twice a year a "grand master" would come to Belgium to roam most schools , to take exam..that's when you got a new belt or didn't..if in BJJ, let's say, the Gracie's don't want to use such a method, or a representative,(and then this person needs to be standerized),then it is up to the trainer's to make the judgement..this means there will be different standards from gym to gym..get over it, that's the sport..who cares, it should only care to the practitioner , does he just want the belt, or does he actually take pride in his/her sport and be as good as he/she can get at his belt..I am still white belt,and I don't want my blue belt before I prove to myself that I can beat our white belts, and even a few of our blue belts..but again, it's not up to me, but up to my trainer to make that judgement..you will always find someone who will beat you , so saying a black belt should always be able to win of a lesser belt is bullocks..he might have a bad day, didn't sleep well, problems at home,an injury...moste martial arts take exams for new belts..so if you are good at memorising moves, you shoot up the belts in no time, doesn't make you a fake, you follow the standards that they art had set..does it make you good at it..(in a fight).. no..so basically, most bjj people always go on about belts are not important, you should not strive for belts,well, either don't use colored belts then, or just accept the fact that there is a flaw in the system, and fix it..if I get my blue belt from Joe down the street bjj, and I beat a Gracie blue belt in a tournament, that doesn't mean my blue belt is real and the other one is fake, nor does it mean my gym has better standards than the Gracie gym....
There will become different standards of blackbelt judged by who graded them. How much more valued is a black belt in Judo from Gene Lebell vs the random Judo dojo down the road?
People generally ask for the highest standards from their students because it is a direct reflection on the trainer.
We try to. Most don’t.
My goodness fake black belts are everywhere mate. Great video
it all depends on the person, it took me 2yrs to receive a black belt TKD and I worked my ass off for it, Had to know the forms self defense techniques Breaking and student creed of each belt. I would double tested and triple tested passed them all with flying colors, Then afterwards I taught for 15yrs while studying different martial arts for 20yrs. Stopped testing at third degree would've been 5th tho, Stopped because I truly knew that I really loved teaching at the time. Finally got the owner to get the Gracie guys in gym Thanks JW Wright/ GrapplingConcepts and it all changed his mind and the game! Mindset and everything changed I knew it would wake him up and the owner even admitted he knew hardly anything about real fighting or technique he stopped training in TKD he was 5th degree even started wearing just a black belt in class while teaching TKD too then started hard core training in BJJ. He was blue belt with a couple of stripes last time I checked on him and having a blast with BJJ. Royler Gracie was a very humble experience when he came to the gym with the crew, Nap, Tap or Snap. Peace.
Selecting a good bjj school has become tricky for someone new to the art. I’m starting this week at Carlson Gracie and I hope I made a good choice.
I hope so, too.
The big discrepancy in standard comes from gi vs no-gi. You might be a black belt in gi but no where near a black belt in no gi. Because no-gi translates better to self defence and is more practical it means more in my opinion. If you want to make a standard therefore it would mean more if the standard was based in no-gi rather than gi.
Awesome video! This is something I have been saying for years. There has to be standards. No one should get a black belt in Gracie Jiu-jitsu without being proficient in the self defense aspect. Also sandbagging needs to stop. Its sad when I see new blue belts all fired up for their first competition only to see them destroyed by some guy who should be close to brown belt.
the sandbagging is the nature of the game of BJJ competitions. i used to train with Ralph Gracie BB Sean Roberts, who has always been a phenom. He was destroying a lot of unsuspecting black belts from his purple belt days. however, when competing, other schools who had someone like Sean were doing the same. remember lloyd irvin's brown belt kumite, where he introduced the world to keenan cornelius? sean was in that competition (as was tonon, aj, and several other top black belts of today) and took second to keenan. after it was done, sean said keenan was so good, he would beat most black belts, which quickly became evident.
the point is, that if everyone in competition is sandbagging, it's all good, because the playing field is even. just like PEDs in competition. if everyone is doing them, is it so "unfair" anymore?
the point of the video was that many people wearing black belts, simply are not. sure, you can account for G=T+P, but i've seen enough black belts succumb to decent (but not sandbagged by any means) blue belts to know they had "low T" (which means something completely different to some of us old guys, but that's for another VLOG), which means their jiu-jitsu was incomplete.
Thanks for another great video and perspective on this issue. In my opinion there is certainly two distinctive differences in what we call " fake" Black (or Brown, Purple or Blue, for that matter) belts. The first is mostly a matter or school or instructor standards. Some may be legit Black Belts but just have no idea how to run a school. teach. or ensure there is a standard. While sometimes the student my be "in" on this, its often the instructor simply trying to keep his student base pleased.
The other fake black belts are like Rapheal Torres, David Lang and Jay Queiroz who were never legit BJJ players.
Some people just have to work harder to obtain a certain level, and then you get some people that just have a natural talent or ability, but still have to work through the particular Martial Art requirement to obtain or reach a required grade level, all martial arts and it does not matter what the particular art it is, all styles have a syllabus and there are certain requirements within each syllabus that state time spans for progression from one grade to the next. This sometimes can depend on ones age or ability if they might be someone that has a physical disabilities. Most martial arts have a section within their syllabus for persons that have certain issues, and allowances are sometimes made for these issues.
Yes you can spot a fake black belt in any self defense but here's another thing to this as well. Can you be a black belt from 10 years of age till 25 then be like okay I did this and then get caught up in life stopped rolling for 15 to 20 years then rollin again only to forget almost everything.
Toco was bluebelt for 8 years.
I was 4 years whitebelt, 4 years bluebelt 5 years Purple.
how do you check your black belts bona fides? I am in the Philippines I do not know how to check out my black belts?
that's a tricky question, these days. a lot of black belts are "legit" because of who they received the black belt from, but when you go to train with/learn from them, they're not what was expected.
there are a lot of registries (IBJJF, JJGF, among many others), but it's still hit and miss.
just go and try schools out and see what you feel when there.
@@KamaJiuJitsu thanks
Once again another great video thank you
In teakwondo I started when I was 12 and got a blackbelt at16
And started judo at 18 and got my blackbelt by age 23
You always forget the Machado Bros! Still teaching! 😉
Great discussion guys 👍
Thanks!
they lock up a triangle even when they sit
It can be very difficult to cross reference an individua'ls martial arts abilities within general styles (Karate, Jui-Jitsu, Kung Fu etc.). I dont even try.
I practice Atemi Ryu Ju-Jitsu, we have a set of requirements for each belt so basically all Black Belts have the same knowledge (not to be confused with athletic abilities). I really enjoy the limited Brazilian JJ classes that I've taken, and yes I do note a variety of skill levels depending on which BJJ school I'm visiting. But generally they have all been good.
Can you say something about the Valente brothers? I've watched some of their videos and they talk about growing up in Brazil and spending considerable time with Helio as they were growing up. It seems they were primarily trained by him as was Helio's sons. But he was older then. Is this correct? Would they be identifiable as men who trained and received their black belts directly from Helio, who are actively running an academy and represent the old school ways?
Their father was a red belt who trained under Hélio for over 50 years. From their website: "The Valente family is the only family other than the Gracie family to have four black belts and professor diplomas awarded directly by Grandmaster Hélio Gracie."
I got a brown belt in dan zan ryu jiu jitsu (japanese ju jitsu) as a 13 year old in a year training 2xs per week and it was bullshit, started gracie jiu jitsu at 24 and after 12 years still a purple belt
Also are we training 15 hrs aday in jujitsu or training 8 hr a week for 15 years.
I love your dog what a beautiful animal.
I have two black belts in ITA and kuikiwon taekwondo styles. I am earning my 3rd black belt in karate. taekwondo is legit especially kuikiwon.
I don't think its always fair to judge a crappy blackbelt. Some schools have weak standards. Some schools are built for business and they need to keep the lights on.
Good video. Thankfully, I do think people are waking up to this. The efforts of people like you, Rickson Gracie, Pedro Sauer, The Gracie Academy, etc. have resonated with many, and you can start to see the beginnings of a counter-movement in the art. Cheers from the Pedro Sauer Association, and please keep up the work.
there is a huge issue with people that other people don't accept as a black belt. Standards are only standards to those that accept those standards, everyone else considers that Dictatorships. Not all martial arts are about self defense or real combat. One group, no matter how right they think they are, have the right to dictate everyone. How would you like it if a McDojo group decided standards to martial arts.... not very pleasant is it. People who want over all standards only what their over all standards. I've said it for years now BJJ is going to be handing out belts like candy, just like everyone else in a matter of 5 years. I see it . Black belt use to mean something but not anymore. I have standards, you have standards, they have standards. Can never change, have to take the good with the bad. No matter what there will always be those that just don't measure up to what you expect. And there will be those that see you not measuring up to their standards either. I know you are talking about JJ but where does it stop. Take an inch want a mile. Human nature. I don't comprehend your species, humans are just not right.
Are there any black belts to train under in the UK that you would consider up to the standard you speak of to your knowledge?
+Know Hype Roger Gracie and his father Mauricio Gomes, for sure.
Kama Jiu-Jitsu Thank you for your response, I will look them up. You have a new sub.
I respect the belt system/ rank in bjj, but I notice a lot of discrepancy between skill level and belt level. Another alternative I've been thinking about is a "gray belt" movement, where everyone just has a gray belt and f the whole belt system.
+DustinDiBree1 GMs Carlos, Sr and Helio had that. It was called a white belt (navy blue for instructors).
both teachers sitting in the triangle lock position...I sleep with my legs in triangle lock,, it's very comfy
+poeguru88, haha! The things we observe, sometimes!
+Kama Jiu-Jitsu I practice Gracie jiu jitsu and I study Takemusu Aiki,, an intention based form of aikido that uses beneficent intention to overpower aggression,, it would be so awesome to train with you guys sometime and exchange knowledge, I know I'd learn so much!!!
+poeguru88, I'm intent on choking and smashing. Is that the same?
+Kama Jiu-Jitsu hahaha sure!! I would call that tough love :)
so we do an "intention-based" form of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. awesome!
The blackbelt in bjj isn't as special anymore because of there are way more or them. It's basically inflation killing the value
You’re exactly right
BJJ is the most respected martial art because it has yet to go the McDojo route. However, I think that can change, but that's primarily based on school politics as opposed to a shift in the BJJ world. Still, this is a problem as people will be promoted to purple and brown belt without the experience and skill. I don't think it'll happen solely in sport schools or traditional/Gracie schools. It will happen everywhere.
BJJ completely went the mcdojo route
the reason why it's relatively easy to spot a fake black belt, instructor or that new BB guy in your school...is because it's a "trial by fire" type of martial art.
You have to be on mat with your students and whoever walks inside the gym
You have to roll with your students to impart your supposed knowledge.
Your knowledge and skill are tested all the time by live sparring, whatever the intensity and duration of it
If you can't technically and martialy surpass your students...
If you can't defend and submit them in a clear and expedient fashion...(at least while they're lower and less experienced belts)
If you can't present viable, non esoteric answers to their questions and fighting questions...
You probably don't have a place in the BB league and even less in the instructor one.
+Eduardo Pires, very well stated. Thank you for that!
Kama Jiu-Jitsu thanks. I enjoy your videos a lot
So what is the standard for belts in Jiu Jitsu? I do judo and have a grading book on what is required - Does Kama have the same? i think if its not written it will never be clear.
Given that most of the "curriculum" in jiu-jitsu is pretty much learned from white through purple belts, having clear cut standards and requirements for the early belts is cut and dried. Once you get to the upper levels, a lot of it has to do with "degrees of execution" of a technique/concept/philosophy. That makes the upper belt levels (up to black) more subjective.
Now compared to judo, students can progress to black belt faster because the true "degrees of execution" doesn't really happen until black belt. As it was once explained to me, equivalent "levels of mastery" in jiu-jitsu to judo is - jiu-jitsu black belt = judo third degree black belt. Or conversely, judo black belt = jiu-jitsu high blue/low purple belt.
People may beg to differ, which is fine. I'm no authority on judo by any means.
@@KamaJiuJitsu I sort of agree with your level mastery comparison but it depends on what dojo they walk into you - Meaning if a jiu jitsu black belt walked into a judo dojo his level of judo throws is probably a blue belt level, thats only because jiu jitsu probably focuses on 20% throws 80% ground thats my understanding.
When i was competing in judo at brown belt i would beat black belts all the time 1st,2nd,3rd degrees - you have to have competition points to do your judo gradings and i had heaps of points to do my grading but it was up to me if i wanted to do the grading, i could just not be given my black belt even though i have the knowledge to obtain one. Thus judokas can be hard to read at a tournament as you can stay on your same belt for years if you wish and have the skill set of a black belt. From your video i was getting that a lower belt should not be able to beat a black belt in Jiu Jitsu , is this correct?
My understanding of your grading system that belts are awarded to students from their coach when they display the knowledge criteria for that level. Is this written in a grading book on what you need to know for each belt grading for Jiu Jitsu? The reason i ask about this as when i studied for my belts i had to know all the throws,hold downs and submissions by name ( japanese name ), my sensei would say the name in japanese to me i had to demonstrate it. Does Jiu Jitsu techniques take from Japanese language or is it English spoken now?
Also love your channel it has been informative on Jiu Jitsu which is why i come here. I did Tohkun Ryu Ju Jitsu years ago which i really enjoyed.
let me clarify... i'm not saying a high blue/purple belt walks into a judo studio and beats a black belt in judo. what i'm saying that based on technical knowledge in their respective art, a judo black belt has been exposed to (and can demonstrate an ability to execute) the entire curriculum of judo. for the BJJ practitioner, the same should be the case by the time a person gets to high blue/purple belt. i think in an actual fight, either will have enough tools to beat finish each other with equal proficiency (although they may use a different means to finish each other).
when we discuss proficiency in their respective art, given the typical timeline to achieve their respective ranks (again, "typically" speaking), a 3rd dan black belt in judo will have a similar understanding/ability to execute to a proficient level as what a new black belt in jiu-jitsu would.
still, not saying who will prevail if they were to meet up in a match (due to rules) or a fight (depends on the circumstances).
hi im wondering if you think training mma alongside sport jiu jitsu is an acceptable substitute for training self defence jiu jitsu?. obviously there are still differences in space management/top pressure between a trained fighter and untrained idiot solely trying to make space and hit you at any opportunity. but do you think if you are aware of these differences and also the risk of things like school yard headlocks etc then it is sufficient?
I’ve made my choice, but I might just wrestle or do judo instead, if traditional Gracie Jiu-Jitsu were not available.
My professor got his black belt under JD Shelley, was his first black belt actually
Sadly that’s where the monopolization of things comes into play as well. I agree there should be some form of standard. Who sets the standard ? What will that affiliation standard require for school owners? Payment to Gracie only? I’m not hating on the gracies, but I’m currently a blue belt in bjj and have recently pushed my bjj training to the Side and have primarily focused on training judo / JJ self defense resulting in my purple belt with them after 2 yrs (in judo). I have been told I am fighting and rolling at a purple belt level with others who don’t train in my schools. I am currently under a non bjj standard. 🤷 were not ibjjf or kodokan affiliates either, my bjj school....not a Gracie school.
Throwing a few things out there for a big BJJ Affiliation Gracie Barra / Kama / Alliance etc... just talking standards are you talking people aged 16-30 with heavy Jits training.... They get a Black Belt after 7,8,9 + years training 6,7,8,9,10+ times a week train with Mega 1000's of hours mat time rolling.
Now if someone goes in there and trains as above but say they are 50, stamina wise they're likely not to have as much Stamina, maybe less flexibility, Maybe heavier ( not always ) may not training to complete in UFC/BJJ/MMA comps, maybe they can only train 4 times a week for 7 / 8 / 9 years - maybe they train as they enjoy it and enjoy teaching others Assume they get there BJJ BlackBelt - Does that make them a legit black belt as if they Rolled with the 25 year old BJJ blackbelt above they'll possibly get beaten .... Are they still legit ?
I disagree guys so u telling me an mma guy thats does bjj doesnt know selfdefense?
Black belts can never be special,simply due to the fact that the skill ceiling is so high with jiujitsu ,you can make the standards as tough as you want but you are still going to have a world of diference between a black belt just promoted and a man with 10 more years of training
yes but a blackbelt of any resprectable BJJ School - should have done say 7 8 9 10+ years and have say 2000 hours + mat time, under the watchful eyes of other Blackbelts.
So as a minimum - all BJJ Blackbelts should be able to submit a non trained attacker in 15 seconds.
But there will always be diffences in blackbelts if someones a World Class Competitor training 30 HRs a week training hard core with other BJJ BBs, and one runs a school as s/he enjoys it and trains 4 times a week, rolling with his/her students.
I think one of the most awesome aspects of BJJ is that they don't hand out belts. It keeps people grounded.
sadly, many do, these days.
What if they earn black belt in like 4 years max? They're just a phenomenal athlete like pre D1 wrestler or Judoka.
Is that fake.
Also how do you all feel about the other side of bjj? No gi mma oriented or 10th planet?
You all never talk about that. Just the gi sport peeps. I'm curious.
We don’t speak about one particular school/system that we don’t have an intimate knowledge of.
As far as someone earning a black belt in 4 years... in most cases (imho), those recipients don’t know the whole art; but they’re probably/definitely black belts in the system they learned.
It’s just highly unlikely they earned that black belt in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
A lot of truth in this conversation. IBJJF is doing to jiujitsu what the ATA did to taekwondo
If ever make it back to Texas, im going to train with you.
come on by!
To be quite fair to the other "paper plates," can you not use them to eat? It is really ridiculous to question one's path to Black Belt if it had been done so legitimately. While curriculum may differ from gym to gym, Jiu Jitsu is ultimately JIU JITSU.
Define “legitimate.”.
@@KamaJiuJitsu One who has gone through a school recognized by either IBJJF or GJJ entities. There are too many fakes out there. Sorry for responding so late. TH-cam just notified me of this response!
You will hear this debate for EVERY belt color in BJJ. " He is not really a blue belt, or Purple, Brown", and on and on. On the flip side, many schools that say "Our Blue belts, Purple, Brown, are HIGH LEVEL". That's because the school holds their ranks back so they can win tournaments in the divisions that they compete. Of course you're a high level belt color. The blue is actually purple, the purple is a brown, brown is actually a black. Bla,bla,bla...................
If your belt color is important to you, go for it. Nothing wrong with that. I wear a white and enjoy my training WITHOUT THIS NONSENSE. By the way, I tap Blue, Purple, Brown, and Black belts.
Guess what they say .......................... "Hey, your not a white belt"! Hahahahahahaha!
the solution to belt inflation is right in one of your other videos. sandbagging in competition is the solution.
Here is the video I'm talking about. th-cam.com/video/g5aCRB_NnBg/w-d-xo.html
by pressuring schools to compete they will have to sand bag, or withhold belts in order to do well. This will put downward pressure on belts and prevent instructors from giving out belts that aren't earned. however you do need to enforce consistency in the school across the whole school, and not allow just the competition students to sandbag.
I have a black belt. $12.99 from JC Penny - Mr. Miyagi quote using today's prices.
So by chance are you saying that because more and more Gracies are disappearing from the teaching circle (Helio's son's) that eventually what BJJ was meant to be will be gone? We have a lot of gyms here that are sport with absolutely no self defense gyms. And they are run by black belts, belted by other black belts. SO in twenty years, will BJJ be the next tae kwon do, useless in real life but look flashy???
+Shawn Williams., we're just making observations, here. If you go under the assumption that when Helio Gracie's sons were running the show, meaning the day to day teaching duties of an Academy, and given their faithful adherence to their father's teaching methods, it was safe to assume that a black belt produced by one of Helio's sons (in the day-to-day operation of the Academy) will be entirely legitimate. As time goes on, if that black belt doesn't continue to hold the same standards for self-defense or shifts the focus of the art to competition and MMA, it only makes sense that the Art will be different, even if the difference is ever so slight. Now take that down a couple generations of black belts, and a black belt three or four generations down the line will not be teaching the same thing that Helio's sons were teaching. We think we're seeing that already, and that's what Rickson is trying to stop with the establishment of the Jiujitsu Global Federation.
We're not trying to say one is better or worse. All we're trying to say, is if a black belt is going to call his art Gracie jiujitsu, shouldn't it be exactly the same as what Gracie jiujitsu has always been, at least on a fundamental level? Every school calling themselves a Gracie jiujitsu school, should all have the same basic fundamental programs, teaching methods, and methodology. Once those core concepts are taken into account, play around with it all you want.
It just seems odd to have a school say they're teaching Gracie jiujitsu with none of their students knowing how to get out of all the major head locks, for instance.
Thats exactly what I think is going to happen to Jiu-jitsu. It already is to an extent. You will do in a fight what you practice in the gym. If self defense against punches and kicks are not part of that you will not magically rise to the challenge. A large % of what I see in sport only schools is less than useless in a fight. Most will in fact get you hurt badly. Can your top sport blue belt completely run over the pure Gracie brown belt? Its likely on the mat in pure grappling. Now add in some punches and a 30 pound weight disadvantage and watch the sport guy get his ass handed to him.
+dragonballjiujitsu did you mean sport brown belt vs gracie blue belt?
The last sentence hits the nail on the head.
Capoeira Angola does not have a belt system, but you knew who was better based on time and skill. The only issue is there are no Capoeira Angola tournaments. BJJ is largely centered around the tournament circuit, thus belts signify skill level. I like that there are only 5 belts in BJJ as opposed to taekwondo schools that can have 8-10 belts.
there should be no Kata black belts . only full contact matches .
I'm pretty familiar with most legit instructors in BJJ. All I have to ask is "Black Belt under who?" That'll tell me what kind of black belt they are. Obviously anyone under Rickson's lineage is legit in all aspects of jiu-jitsu. The Machados are great at sport jiu-jitsu, but they don't really emphasize the stand up self defense techniques that Helio stresses are important. I was lucky enough to get my blue belt from Royce shortly after UFC 4 & there was ONLY an emphasis on jiu-jitsu for real fights back then, as there wasn't much of a tournament scene back then in the USA. There were maybe 2 or 3 small tournaments a year in this country back then, for white & blue belts ONLY.
+David Hannah you are definitely of the old-school mentality! The problem is, as time has gone on, the lineage sometimes doesn't mean much. This is especially true when you have affiliates and associations. A lot of times, the black belt comes with paying the money to the master to become an affiliate. I've seen it happen more than a few times, and it's made me realize that in a lot of cases, Jiu-Jitsu is simply a business.
Kama Jiu-Jitsu I know what you mean! The higher the number of affiliates someone has, the more questionable their black belts are going to be, lol!
i am not necessarily saying that. but it can happen from time to time.
I think you guys just like to hear yourselves talk. Go train
Hi Kama. Im 6months into jiujitsu and am a 1-stripe white belt, but am really at the level of about a purple belt. How can I raise this issue with my coach?
😂
Don't compare to your sport to mma fighting , boxing and kick boxers are in a different league to your sport
Nicky Rod was a blue belt and he beat black belts.
Khabib is a white belt.
The idea of superhumans being the only real "blackbelts" is over.
Ultimately, worrying about what someone else is doing is a pointless exercise. You have to have a lot of nerve to put a black belt on in BJJ and not know how to defend yourself against an average normy or a blue belt. It also takes a lot of nerve to say someone is a fake because they don't do the same moves as you either. Especially in an art as endless in techniques as it is. I don't mean any disrespect, it's just such a dull topic that is usually only discussed by insecure people and i think you are both way above it.
no disrespect taken. thanks for commenting!
The 14 dislikes I see must be those black belts. Lmao
You’re prolly right.
@@KamaJiuJitsu Renzo Gracie is the school here
And a register.
the IBJJF has one. hasn't helped.
I'm shure MICA GALVÃO would kick some black belt ass around here, even as a blue belt, even in a real figth, even 16yo.
I heared lot of "fake black belt" videos or belt discussion. Why don't you get rid of it for good? if there is problem with it. Or yourself just afraid of loosing money?
😆. You don’t know us, do you?
not really :) I never heared any belt issue or fake wrestler or boxer so far.. so there is a major issue about belt system - getting rid of it is not such a bad idea :)
understandable reasoning to an extent but you really can't apply a universal, objective standard to something that is largely subjective and context-dependent. It's impossible but also just faulty thinking because contexts differ drastically and so you may be comparing apples to oranges. Competition rule-sets are going to differ, and that will impact styles and training methods. Even common self-defense conditions differ from place to place, so if you emphasize self defense you then have to consider what self defense approach is optimal. What if someone competes frequently and yet lives in a place where it's statistically unlikely that they'll have to actually fight anyone worse than drunk uncle Bob at the annual family reunion? Flexibility and decentralization is necessary due to these kinds of facts.
+Cruz Bryan, completely valid points.
1 Standard is what is needed in BJJ
You’re exactly right.
BOTH!!!!
Da boys practicing their couch triangles
i think this is what rickson global feeration is attempting to do. unify the certification process
+infoguy1978 that is correct, sir.
Those who got their black belt to easily...if I was their teacher, I will bust them down to white belt till they master the MASTER BJJ STANDARD...I HAVE SPOKEN!!! :D
Im proud to say that I belong to Alliance. The Alliance has a full fundamentals curriculum that is very self defense oriented. Then the intermediate and advanced curriculums. And the lineage traces to Rickson and Rolls.
THIS is why I went the Danzan (Kodenkan) route. I researched the Sensei before enrolling. He is a fifth degree from Russell Rhodes - a badass and the inheritor of the Kenpo-Judo art itself. If I get black from him, its black. End of story. BJJ is great and I have trained in an MMA school that utilized it for ground work, it is legit but BJJ seems to be going the way of the American TKD Assoc. without the formal aspects of form and progression - which are really fruity by the way.
As far as the frauds - us old GI´s have a saying for that, it is called ´´stolen valor.´´ If you didn´t earn it, don´t wear it.
What snobs
Thank you.
That was not a complement. I find you and your cultish views obnoxious
Thank you, anyway. I find your opinions valuable to the conversation. Keep them coming!
Lol. Self defense? God that's Pretentious. Tell that to marsoc raiders, swcc guys, seals, ada guys, infantryman etc who died in country mastering self defense.
I remember a white belt showed up to the gym in sd and tapped the I instructor. He happened to be an active seal. And the instructor is a world class competitor. As I'm sure you know.
Does that mean the black belt isn't a world class competitor or just the seal capitalized in the moment.
Fuck I can go on and on. Terrible.
The only thing a belt means is when you started your journey. A fight is a fight and a roll is a roll. You never know what the other person knows until you bump fists.
as you already know, SEALs, SF, MARSOC, Rangers, Delta, et al are extraordinary individuals among a group of (also) extraordinary individuals. there are extraordinary black belts for sure, but really, jiu-jitsu is a way/path for the NON extraordinary to become their best. and you must acknowledge that someone's best may still not match up well with the aforementioned individuals on their worst days. to compare an individual who lives and breathes what they do best as an operator to the rest of the population (even if they are trained in BJJ) is not an apples to apples comparison.
same as comparing an NFL player's abilities in football vs a high school championship team captain.
not even on the same level.
but then do you denigrate the high school player just because he wants to play to the best of his abilities, yet the NFL professional runs circles around him?
Kama Jiu-Jitsu thanks for actually replying. I do watch your vids alot. And you have good content. I transitioned to bjj after I left active duty.
So as I said , I guess, my main argument is the belt means nothing except when you started your journey.
I think it would be awesome if you addressed it in a video continuation about how you're talking about people in the ranks who don't have prior experience.
Just my opinion though, and I'm still gonna watch your vids whether you do it or not. Just disagree on this topic
Weird analogy
JJGF
Sorry but sounds like you have a big ego...we are under Helio, we are better