“Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already. Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon. Exactly what the fairy tale does is this: it accustoms him for a series of clear pictures to the idea that these limitless terrors had a limit, that these shapeless enemies have enemies in the knights of God, that there is something in the universe more mystical than darkness, and stronger than strong fear.” GK Chesterton. So Horror helps us to prepare to be Knights of God.
“too much gore, too much sex” YES! I am guiding my 13-year-old daughter through the world of horror/weird literature and film. I warned her from the outset that there was so much more garbage than quality material, and how to choose wisely.
"I don't have the time to sort through them..." Nailed it. I'm a hopeless sci-fi/horror buff, and these last weeks I just can't find anything in either genre to watch because as Matt says they're so filled with gratuitous and unnecessary sex and crap. It's almost qualifiable as soft porn with a dark theme. I found myself digging through classic films from the 60s and 70s and was immensely entertained.
I wrote my horror novel The Social Exorcist: A pastor’s supernatural journey to the Catholic faith, because too many people get their education on the demonic from Hollywood, instead of from the Catholic magisterium
@@quinnlarnachjones Yes, It's published. I can't provide the link nor mention where, because the TH-cam algorithm will remove my post, but I'm sure you can find it online.
I'm not sure I would fully agree that horror, as a genre, is more filled with trash than any other legitimate genre. What we call Romance genre that isn't just overtly pron is still perpetuating awful views on relationships and love, for example.
I sometimes feel that when I find good horror, I can also reclassify it. Like, The Exorcist is really a drama about a struggling priest rediscovering his faith in a powerful way.
I think there is value in "cosmic horror" that makes us contemplate how small and fragile we are in the grand scheme of things--true fear--but most horror seems to be just a glorification of violence and all manner of disturbing depravity. Very rarely do I find horror that isn't just gross. There's successfully conveying the threat of your antagonists, and then there's "trash horror" as they refered to it lol. I can put up with a lot in my fiction if the story is ultimately about hope and redemption, but much of horror seems to put the disturbing violence in the spotlight, essentially being the reason people consume it. There's a reason the term "torture porn" was coined, a fittingly disgusting phrase for a disgusting type of movie. Horror is no longer horror, horror has become a gross-out contest.
After this show with Emma, I started watching/listening to yalls stories in order and commenting on them. Some are really good. Recurrent themes from PWA pop up in them.
Shyamalan’s “Devil” is a great example of horror that is “good” not just “well done.” It also tells you why it is important to tell these stories, even if it is a bit on the nose about it. If you believe the devil and the forces of evil are at work in the world, you must to also believe that the power of righteousness prevails against them. No genre more readily recognizes, nor more accurately depicts, that truth - even if it’s not always totally accurate. You may see Ving Rhames say a quick (sincere?) prayer before running out guns blazing in a MI movie, but in any given horror film, the power of the cross itself - and faith in its power - may be the key to defeating evil. That’s why horror is so great.
I love horror. Back in my teens and early 20s I was into horror punk, psychobilly and old school horror movies. I used to make horror punk songs with a Christian message in the lyrics. Horror has a way of bringing the dark reality of life back into remembrance, but also can show that there is good that springs forth from tragedy.
Just recently finished the first draft of a horror novel. I focused so hard on making the struggle of the book be darkness vs. Light. I think horror is even more effective with a tinge of hope left by the end. If the endings are bleak and make the struggle against evil seem pointless I deem that media as bad horror media.
Here is a fine line(which nobody today tries to navigate anymore) and it all lies in the conclusion drawn. And that is revealing the seduction of evil. I find Dracula and some vampire tales terrifying. They offer eternal youth and sex and fancy clothes and all the pleasure in the world. They seduce you to ignore that little voice that tells you something is terribly wrong. Many today glamorize it, but it is better served by showing it all turns to ash in the daylight. It is admittedly hard to not offer those temptations without an R rating, but the seduction of evil is the horror that sticks with me and "scares me straight."
The thing is, "Horror" as a genre, places the emphasis on horror. It in a sense glorifies the ugly and perverse and draws attention to what is bad - not to watch it be defeated, but to make people curious and interested in it. An evil antagonist type of character can be shown in other genres, but that's not the focal point of the story. Instead, the focus is on the good guys battling the evil (and usually winning).
There are absolutely horror films that glorify evil like you say, but I would respectfully push back against that being what the Horror genre is innately. Bram Stoker's Dracula for instance puts a lot of emphasis on good defeating evil. Many of the good ones are about us rooting for the protagonist to triumph. Even though I don't think they are perfect even the Conjuring movies put a lot in the protagonists and acknowledge God.
I believe there is an appropriate application of the Horror genre. Frank Peretti has done a great job exploring Christian themes with Horror. A Christmas Carol really flirts with Horror quite a bit when you think about it. Bram Stokers Dracula is horror but puts a lot of emphasis on good and its victory over evil. Even movies like some of The Conjuring films have has positive aspects such as stressing the existence of God
I grew up with horror and loved it, went to the conventions, met some of the actors, love watching how they make the films and effects and feel inspired to write stories of my own. Jason, Freddy, Leatherface, Jigsaw, Michael Myers-- all those characters in the horror canon, I grew up with, I follow the actors and their careers. So you can say horror is in my blood. So now what as a Christian, Orthodox btw. I don't feel different as a Christian. I try to do the right things and try to live a moral life. I feel like the world is more dangerous than others do. I lock my doors and don't like strangers approaching me on the street if they seem iffy. Afraid. But in my soul, i feel peace and something of God. People call me, "a godly woman.". I just smile and say thanks. But that's nuts, godly, me? Well, thanks for covering this, Your horror soaked friend 😊
Horror stories are effective when they successfully undermine (or enable you plausibly to suspend) your belief in a narrowly rational universe. A staple of the genre is a character that is in denial about a horrific reality until it overtakes him. The genre is thus a rebuke to rationalist hubris and complacent materialism. It operates in a universe that is mysteriously open, liberating the reader or viewer from the oppression of one-dimensional rationalism (and its pecksniff enforcers).
I am a novelist who explores the fallen nature of society. While not horror the stories are realistic and do not hold back on our sin. Thanks for the thoughts as I write inspired deeply by Flannery O'Connor.
I think it’s really interesting and you both make excellent points. Because that genre is so full of inappropriate material that it would be easy to condemn the whole thing. But horror novels didn’t start that way-typically they were using some kind of supernatural, or science fiction element to pose a disturbing or deep question about human nature like Frankenstein, or Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Horror itself isn’t evil I would say it’s all about if you lose sight of what the horror elements in it represent, and then it becomes an excuse to showcase a lot of evil without any relevant themes. And like she said, people tend to be sensitive to supernatural evil for some reason even though in every story we need something representing an evil force to be assailing our protagonists: dragon, witch, villain, killer etc. as long as the manifestation of evil is combatted and we don’t encourage it, then horror doesn't have to be evil. I write fiction and I’m a Christian so this is something I come across debating a lot whenever supernatural dark elements of evil are represented in my books
Now I want to read your horror book. I loved the Xfiles and the old Twilight Zones. Anyway I thought I couldn’t watch horror movies anymore. Btw I like the old tv cop show Columbo! Pretty clean detective show.
Sadly, Sturgeon's Law applies well to Horror, but the gems are well worth wading through the muck. Still waiting for Sibling Horror 2! Keep up the great work!
I generally feel the same... Most horror seems to be a glorification of violence and all manner of disturbing depravity. Very rarely do I find horror that isn't just gross or off-putting. There's successfully conveying the threat of your antagonists, and then there's "trash horror" as they refered to it lol. I can put up with a lot in my fiction if the story is ultimately about hope and redemption, but much of horror seems to put the disturbing violence in the spotlight, essentially being the reason people consume it.
I struggle to get on board with value in horror. Unless its simply the menace or fear of an enemy or antagonist. Shelob in LOTR or something like that has a horror aspect i suppose, but its a terrible enemy to be defeated. I think a lot of horror now is full of not just the overtly demonic but also the covertly demonic, demonic intentions. I struggle to express it well, but the word that I often come up with is simple 'nastiness'. Pure delight in harm, gore, death, torture, terror, etc. almost a lust for perverse violence. Something like 'Saw', or 'the Hostel', which are going back a bit now, really just seem to enjoy the perverse suffering of others. Someone who I can appreciate his talent, but dislike his art, is Tarrantino. I know he doesnt make horror, but I still sense this same kind of spirit in him where he will often just try to set up excuses for lavish displays of nastiness or perverse violence. Hence why he chooses antagonists like Slave owners, Nazi's, murderers, etc. then shows their gratuitous violence or evil; therefore, in his mind, opening the door for his protagonists to partake in gratuitous nastiness in 'justified' response.
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“Fairy tales, then, are not responsible for producing in children fear, or any of the shapes of fear; fairy tales do not give the child the idea of the evil or the ugly; that is in the child already, because it is in the world already. Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.
Exactly what the fairy tale does is this: it accustoms him for a series of clear pictures to the idea that these limitless terrors had a limit, that these shapeless enemies have enemies in the knights of God, that there is something in the universe more mystical than darkness, and stronger than strong fear.” GK Chesterton. So Horror helps us to prepare to be Knights of God.
“too much gore, too much sex” YES! I am guiding my 13-year-old daughter through the world of horror/weird literature and film. I warned her from the outset that there was so much more garbage than quality material, and how to choose wisely.
"I don't have the time to sort through them..." Nailed it. I'm a hopeless sci-fi/horror buff, and these last weeks I just can't find anything in either genre to watch because as Matt says they're so filled with gratuitous and unnecessary sex and crap. It's almost qualifiable as soft porn with a dark theme. I found myself digging through classic films from the 60s and 70s and was immensely entertained.
I wrote my horror novel The Social Exorcist: A pastor’s supernatural journey to the Catholic faith, because too many people get their education on the demonic from Hollywood, instead of from the Catholic magisterium
Have you published it?
@@quinnlarnachjones yes. It’s on Amazon
@@quinnlarnachjones Yes, It's published. I can't provide the link nor mention where, because the TH-cam algorithm will remove my post, but I'm sure you can find it online.
I'm not sure I would fully agree that horror, as a genre, is more filled with trash than any other legitimate genre. What we call Romance genre that isn't just overtly pron is still perpetuating awful views on relationships and love, for example.
Me, a Catholic, thinking about writing a horror piece:
Horror can help us to learn how to respond to terrifying situations in a right way.
I sometimes feel that when I find good horror, I can also reclassify it. Like, The Exorcist is really a drama about a struggling priest rediscovering his faith in a powerful way.
I think there is value in "cosmic horror" that makes us contemplate how small and fragile we are in the grand scheme of things--true fear--but most horror seems to be just a glorification of violence and all manner of disturbing depravity. Very rarely do I find horror that isn't just gross. There's successfully conveying the threat of your antagonists, and then there's "trash horror" as they refered to it lol. I can put up with a lot in my fiction if the story is ultimately about hope and redemption, but much of horror seems to put the disturbing violence in the spotlight, essentially being the reason people consume it.
There's a reason the term "torture porn" was coined, a fittingly disgusting phrase for a disgusting type of movie. Horror is no longer horror, horror has become a gross-out contest.
After this show with Emma, I started watching/listening to yalls stories in order and commenting on them. Some are really good. Recurrent themes from PWA pop up in them.
Shyamalan’s “Devil” is a great example of horror that is “good” not just “well done.” It also tells you why it is important to tell these stories, even if it is a bit on the nose about it.
If you believe the devil and the forces of evil are at work in the world, you must to also believe that the power of righteousness prevails against them. No genre more readily recognizes, nor more accurately depicts, that truth - even if it’s not always totally accurate.
You may see Ving Rhames say a quick (sincere?) prayer before running out guns blazing in a MI movie, but in any given horror film, the power of the cross itself - and faith in its power - may be the key to defeating evil.
That’s why horror is so great.
I love horror. Back in my teens and early 20s I was into horror punk, psychobilly and old school horror movies.
I used to make horror punk songs with a Christian message in the lyrics. Horror has a way of bringing the dark reality of life back into remembrance, but also can show that there is good that springs forth from tragedy.
Just recently finished the first draft of a horror novel. I focused so hard on making the struggle of the book be darkness vs. Light. I think horror is even more effective with a tinge of hope left by the end. If the endings are bleak and make the struggle against evil seem pointless I deem that media as bad horror media.
Here is a fine line(which nobody today tries to navigate anymore) and it all lies in the conclusion drawn. And that is revealing the seduction of evil. I find Dracula and some vampire tales terrifying. They offer eternal youth and sex and fancy clothes and all the pleasure in the world. They seduce you to ignore that little voice that tells you something is terribly wrong. Many today glamorize it, but it is better served by showing it all turns to ash in the daylight. It is admittedly hard to not offer those temptations without an R rating, but the seduction of evil is the horror that sticks with me and "scares me straight."
The thing is, "Horror" as a genre, places the emphasis on horror. It in a sense glorifies the ugly and perverse and draws attention to what is bad - not to watch it be defeated, but to make people curious and interested in it. An evil antagonist type of character can be shown in other genres, but that's not the focal point of the story. Instead, the focus is on the good guys battling the evil (and usually winning).
There are absolutely horror films that glorify evil like you say, but I would respectfully push back against that being what the Horror genre is innately. Bram Stoker's Dracula for instance puts a lot of emphasis on good defeating evil. Many of the good ones are about us rooting for the protagonist to triumph. Even though I don't think they are perfect even the Conjuring movies put a lot in the protagonists and acknowledge God.
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I believe there is an appropriate application of the Horror genre. Frank Peretti has done a great job exploring Christian themes with Horror. A Christmas Carol really flirts with Horror quite a bit when you think about it. Bram Stokers Dracula is horror but puts a lot of emphasis on good and its victory over evil. Even movies like some of The Conjuring films have has positive aspects such as stressing the existence of God
Stephen King. Horror with usually good endings. And an amazing writer.
I grew up with horror and loved it, went to the conventions, met some of the actors, love watching how they make the films and effects and feel inspired to write stories of my own. Jason, Freddy, Leatherface, Jigsaw, Michael Myers-- all those characters in the horror canon, I grew up with, I follow the actors and their careers.
So you can say horror is in my blood. So now what as a Christian, Orthodox btw.
I don't feel different as a Christian. I try to do the right things and try to live a moral life. I feel like the world is more dangerous than others do. I lock my doors and don't like strangers approaching me on the street if they seem iffy. Afraid.
But in my soul, i feel peace and something of God. People call me, "a godly woman.". I just smile and say thanks. But that's nuts, godly, me?
Well, thanks for covering this,
Your horror soaked friend 😊
Horror stories are effective when they successfully undermine (or enable you plausibly to suspend) your belief in a narrowly rational universe. A staple of the genre is a character that is in denial about a horrific reality until it overtakes him. The genre is thus a rebuke to rationalist hubris and complacent materialism. It operates in a universe that is mysteriously open, liberating the reader or viewer from the oppression of one-dimensional rationalism (and its pecksniff enforcers).
I wish this video on horror was longer. Great discussion
I am a novelist who explores the fallen nature of society. While not horror the stories are realistic and do not hold back on our sin. Thanks for the thoughts as I write inspired deeply by Flannery O'Connor.
I think it’s really interesting and you both make excellent points.
Because that genre is so full of inappropriate material that it would be easy to condemn the whole thing. But horror novels didn’t start that way-typically they were using some kind of supernatural, or science fiction element to pose a disturbing or deep question about human nature like Frankenstein, or Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Horror itself isn’t evil I would say it’s all about if you lose sight of what the horror elements in it represent, and then it becomes an excuse to showcase a lot of evil without any relevant themes. And like she said, people tend to be sensitive to supernatural evil for some reason even though in every story we need something representing an evil force to be assailing our protagonists: dragon, witch, villain, killer etc.
as long as the manifestation of evil is combatted and we don’t encourage it, then horror doesn't have to be evil. I write fiction and I’m a Christian so this is something I come across debating a lot whenever supernatural dark elements of evil are represented in my books
Now I want to read your horror book. I loved the Xfiles and the old Twilight Zones. Anyway I thought I couldn’t watch horror movies anymore. Btw I like the old tv cop show Columbo! Pretty clean detective show.
Sadly, Sturgeon's Law applies well to Horror, but the gems are well worth wading through the muck.
Still waiting for Sibling Horror 2! Keep up the great work!
It Follows is a great horror movie.
I really don’t like horror stories. They feel demonic and make me feel uneasy
I generally feel the same... Most horror seems to be a glorification of violence and all manner of disturbing depravity. Very rarely do I find horror that isn't just gross or off-putting. There's successfully conveying the threat of your antagonists, and then there's "trash horror" as they refered to it lol. I can put up with a lot in my fiction if the story is ultimately about hope and redemption, but much of horror seems to put the disturbing violence in the spotlight, essentially being the reason people consume it.
They felt the same way at Jesus death
I struggle to get on board with value in horror. Unless its simply the menace or fear of an enemy or antagonist. Shelob in LOTR or something like that has a horror aspect i suppose, but its a terrible enemy to be defeated. I think a lot of horror now is full of not just the overtly demonic but also the covertly demonic, demonic intentions. I struggle to express it well, but the word that I often come up with is simple 'nastiness'. Pure delight in harm, gore, death, torture, terror, etc. almost a lust for perverse violence.
Something like 'Saw', or 'the Hostel', which are going back a bit now, really just seem to enjoy the perverse suffering of others.
Someone who I can appreciate his talent, but dislike his art, is Tarrantino. I know he doesnt make horror, but I still sense this same kind of spirit in him where he will often just try to set up excuses for lavish displays of nastiness or perverse violence. Hence why he chooses antagonists like Slave owners, Nazi's, murderers, etc. then shows their gratuitous violence or evil; therefore, in his mind, opening the door for his protagonists to partake in gratuitous nastiness in 'justified' response.
Would love to see the argument for/against metal music. Think Shane covered it in his interview a little bit
Personally i like horror. I really like horror react videos if the persons reacts are good (e.g. Coryxkenshin, Joe Bart, etc).
Subscribe to our horror podcast: www.youtube.com/@siblinghorror
I love your show, but not horror stories. So, I wrote my own book which is currently being published.