Is Furnace Array Hopper Locking Necessary?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ค. 2022
- Testing how much locking hoppers reduces lag and what could be the best way to do it.
Test was done in the 1.19 snapshots
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Outro: Reckless by Olivaw / olivaw Creative Commons - Attribution 3.0 Unported- CC BY 3.0 creativecommon... Music provided by Music for Creators • Reckless - Olivaw - เกม
I appreciate like the deep dive into what causes lag in current versions. I didn't realise that they significantly reduced redstone dust lag in recent versions
hope they improves it more because for a bad technical player like me, making dustless designs are hard :(
It could definitely still be better, see: Alternate Current mod, but it should really only be an issue for big, complicated builds with a lot of flashing dust.
@@junyong0716 There is no need to avoid redstone dust now, unless there is a LOT of it getting constantly powered and unpowered. It's so much better than before.
I like to optimize stuff for lag efficieny just for the sake of it. It's often similar to the joy of improving the rate of a farm.
And it also keeps my room a bit cooler, especially in summer...
Megachad
°c/tick rather than mspt
"the joy of improving farm rate"
Wouldn't be so much of a joy when you have to build 256x256 bedrock remover
@@octobsession3061 You mean five of them!
Though I don't mind building the machines themself too much. Placing the pistons on the other hand...oh boy
As someone who plays vanilla survival with regular usage of /tick warp, the best way to get the most out of an AFK session is to optimize your farm for maximum rates AND lag efficiency at the same time, such as to minimize the MS of server time used per unit of resource produced.
For my use cases, a farm that uses 40 MSPT to produce 100k resources per hour is worse than a farm that uses 2 MSPT to produce 10k resources per hour, since the latter would result in twice as much resources per real-time second. Similarly, an enderman-based XP farm that produces 36k XP/h and uses 5 MSPT would score the same as another mob farm that uses 25 MSPT to produce 180k XP per hour.
Really like the latest videos as an upload concept. Doing a high-end farm and a super high-end farm(1728 furnace array) and then explaining the subsystems (minecart unloading) and other science behind them and other options for optimisation. Would really enjoy this for flying machine based contraptions!
I'd like one for a perimeter monster
Voiding did a great series on flying machines
@@PutridXII You probably also want to checkout voiding's series on flying machines if you want to learn about world eaters
@@Heilzmaker thanks for the plug
@@Heilzmaker omg its heilz
nice var loader lol
from std
My guess for the spawning algorythk is that you have blocks changing Y-position so it has to recalculate the spawning in those directions and also lighting changes as the blocks move and change how light is being blocked.
But I wouldn’t have expected this
Plus the added spawning space given by all the surfaces of those observers and what not.
For the unloading I think it could also be the sticky piston unloading a block for one place to load it in another place
"I'm just doing this video for science"
I like this
can you do the same kind of tests for villagers? like the magma block trick vs the 3 carpets vs the honey vs being in minecarts etc...
I’d love to see that!
Next video: Is it necessary to kill your villagers?
Yes please!
Edit: I remembered this completely wrong. It was the server that handled a lot of "get entities", and that made up like 30% of computing. A significant amount was used by "controls" (3.5%) "travel" (9%) and "push" (4%) despite them being immovable. You can probably do better lag busting.
---
I did a small test with 400-ish villagers in an empty world. They were both encased in and surrounded by glass blocks, so they could neither pathfind nor see anything, but my framerate still had a seizure. -Running the performance debug (i think it's f3 + L these days) it looked like 70-80% of all client lag was caused by the villagers querying other villagers in range, which is 16 blocks or something. I didn't look much at server lag, but i don't think it was -_-as-_- severe.-
So, reduce lag by spreading your villagers out a bit? 🤔
@@volbla Testing for server lag is what really matters in this case. If your client has bad performance when near a lot of entities you can just drop your render distance or use a mod like Tweakeroo to temporarily stop entities from rendering, the villagers would be invisible but you can still interact with them.
You convinced me to finally move the village with my trading hall (that I build when I started playing and knew barely anything about the game) out of the spawn chunks. I always put composter on the hoppers yet I always avoided moving all those villagers, your casual comparison with lag caused by mobs made me realise just how stupid that is.
I have found a use for smokers as a sort of conditional pulse extender that you can use to read "binary" item streams of unstackable items. But never for actually cooking anything lmao
That sound really interesting. Can you explain how exactly the reading works, because the only way I can come up with is using tools made out of wood and any other material for the binary numbers. Either it can be used as fuel or it can not. But in that case normal furnaces would do the job just as good.
@@2000Meilen I'm assuming by having a stream of items that can be smelted in the smoker (ie porkchops) and ones that can't (ie cobblestone). Let's you use farmable stackable items vs nonhstackable items that need to be crafted (ie wood pickaxe).
How does it work?
@@InfoTeddy I obviously don't know how OP is using it, but you could have a setup that dispenses either a cobblestone or a raw porkchops depending on what is happening in the world, then a comparator can be used to detect if it goes into the smoker or not, and you can have different outcomes. As the OP said he's using it for a variable pulse extender, I would assume he's using a latching circuit that is reset either by detecting an item that BYPASSED the smoker (nearly instant), or when it detects an item being REMOVED from the smoker, which would add the delay of the item being smelted in the smoker.
@@InfoTeddy The fuel maybe? Wooden tools burn in 10 seconds and fishing rods, bows or crossbows take 15.
It'd be nice if there was some client side mod which would identify chunks which are causing lag. It's always the case on HC where areas are laggy, such as spawn area now, and nobody ever knows why. Surely there's some way to highlight areas that have an over average tick load.
I used a mod for that purpose a while ago: LagGoggles. It's very cool. I think it does what you are describing
Iskall's Villagers
@@beautifulnova6088 TH-cam offered to translate your comment which is so funny. Hallo! 😂
The players on HC overuse glowing signs which is really what's contributing to their lag problems.
@@ForeverLaxx if glowing signs truly are the issue, then Mojang should optimize them. I'd be surprised if this is a large portion of the issue, but who knows.
Great Vid, I love seeing deeper dives into technical aspects of the game.
I like your comparisons: "killing two random cows", "like 5 villager" :)
As an Admin on a public server THANK YOU for specifically telling players to not go overboard with their builds. Everyone wants cool builds and contraptions but when multiple people have them it’s painful for everyone else.
This. I'm probably one of the most technical players on the server I play on yet the farms I only have for personal use are some of the smallest while other people are making farms like they need to supply the entire population of China with 100 pumpkins a day
@@roguereaver634 if I'm not allowed to fill my perimeter with a single melon farm what's the point
@@roguereaver634 Blame the tutorial channels. Most of them showcase the biggest, highest yield farms whether that's something you need or not. More people should check out ianxofour's farms as his are, in contrast, usually much smaller, less complicated, and more friendly to servers while still yielding more than enough for a handful of players.
Yeah, tell me about it. Not something I've had to experience myself, but over-the-shoulder global weather controllers...headache after headache. Local ones don't work when the entire thing is interconnected.
@@Shuroii 🍉🌇🛑🛑Creative mode users only. Set random tick speed to ZERO.
Love videos like this, super interesting to learn- especially as it seems like the major causes of lag changes every few versions (such as redstone dust)
Semi technical player, so getting some good info and numbers on lag is great! Would love to see more videos on major lag contributors in redstone farms (and/or other areas) and best practice to reduce.
@13:31 I make that setup in my single player, but it's not to reduce lag, it is so I can stop items flowing to get the XP from the output and to aggregate nonstackables (iron/gold armor) that I am smelting until I get a decent amount of items.
I was about to write the same thing!
I've played minecraft for 10 years, and for the life of me I can't figure redstone out. But I still watch your videos just because of how informative and well put together they are. Especially the peaceful series, I've watched the majority of that 3 times now lol
Everyone starts somewhere. It can be very complicated because some items do multiple things.
Redstone signal strength drops by 1 each block so if u have a max signal strength, it would go 15 blocks. There are ways to extend this.
Redstone torch produces a max strength signal to adjacent items. Powering the block the torch is attached to, turns it off.
Redstone block also produces a max strength signal and powers adjacent items.
Redstone repeater takes a signal (no matter what strength) and outputs a max signal. It also adds a delay based on what u set it at.
Observers watch the block adjacent to the face for a change. If something becomes powered or moves across it, it sends a quick max strength signal.
Redstone comparator in general is used to detect the items of a container. It outputs a signal strength relative to the fullness of the container. It also takes redstone signal as an input, then outputs a signal that is -1 strength of the input. Ie 15 going in, 14 coming out. Due to this mechanic, ppl use them a lot as pulse extenders. Because different items have different pulse lengths. A button stays on longer than an observer detecting something. You could make the really fast observer signal last 20+ seconds with enough comparators and repeaters. They are also used to compare (imagine that) signals. If the comparator has a redstone signal input from the side, it will only power on the output side if the input side is as high as the signal strength on the side.
There is a lot more complicated things that go on, but understanding the basics goes a LONG way.
That's because it's blood.
This is a really interesting video for my wool farm design. It’s already fairly optimized, but I learned some new things!
I honestly find hopper locking is relative to player preference. Yes, alot of the higher tech community is picky on how many hoppers are locked, but in my opinion, with a furnace array, if you are not in an already laggy server and you don't leave the array loaded for a long time you don't necessarily need hopper locking. Yes this kinda repeated the video, but a similar opinion helps.
A TL;DW comment is always nice :)
Animé pfp users opinion have no value
@@-xGenesis too long; didn't write? XD jk, i got it lol
also lithium basically fixes hopper lag so y'know...
@@rgbforever4561 minecraft screenshots = good, anime pfp = bad, got it
How much better did redstone dust get in comparison to previous versions, e.g. 1.12?
I felt that bit with other people having like 500 cats around
Meanwhile a basic comparator fadeout-clock is an issue .-.
Cats is love
Cats is life
@@octobsession3061 Cat is lag
@@TheRealWormbo cat is log 🪵
Ilmango: No more furnace array videos!
Also Ilmango:
Very interesting! Thank you for the explanation!
Are "killer hoppers" still in the game?
yes, but the performance mod "lithium" deals with them nicely
As someone who is aware of hopper lag but isn’t too technical, I just put composters on top of all my open top hoppers.
That's a great start! Making sure that contraptions with a lot of hoppers are not loaded all of the time is the second step 😅☺️
06:09 "More Ofen" unintentional pun there
Really enjoyed this video… Absolutely fascinating and really useful, you should do a whole series about Minecraft lag science doing a deep dive into various causes of lag and the most efficient way to deal with each of them.
This is by far more interesting than any of my lectures at university ever were
I think that the redstone dust version is not slower as the dust is only in a line - there isn't any "shortest path finding" caused by cycles that you may have to do when using it in a grid (especially when the grid is full square), you have just one posible path to go through these interactions.
The repeater may be even faster as it doesn't search in all the 6 faces of block for activable redstone but only one.
Outside of the fact that this is an Ilmango video, the thumbnail was enough to get me to click and watch with eagerness!
Fantastic info and assessment!
Yeah, help is help, even a small not really neccesary contribution, if 30 of guy in server lock hopper or put composter on top of hopper line, it will help server with more noticable.
Ilmango!
I had an idea for a wood farm, but I broke my hand and don’t want to risk it not healing properly. The idea involves not moving the wood, but letting tnt rain down from above. If the dirt underneath is in the blast zoned, you could try to use a double piston extender to push the wood up. Minecarts or hoppers should be enough to collect all the wood. This design wouldn’t give you saplings of course. Hope it works and produces a good amount of wood. You probably already thought about it and know some reason not to build it bc of a major flaw.
Would an inverted detector rail be a big help for lag prevention? A detector rail that emits a signal by default and then turns off for a brief period when a cart runs over it.
Do composters on top of full hoppers reduce lag when items are moving through them? If you have a chain of 1000 hoppers filled with coal and a furnace on the end, you'd expect the hoppers to briefly be able to check for items on top whenever the furnace needs another fuel item.
Yes they do, because searching for item entities is MUCH more expensive than checking an adjacent inventory
Composter on top is always worth it, unless the hopper is completely filled most of the time. In the case of a furnace array the low-tech answer for your fuel hoppers is simply filling your fuel hoppers, in case of a storage system this is true for shulker box supply hoppers. In other words, you already only need to worry about the hoppers that transport the items to process, i.e. the input hoppers for items to smelt/sort.
@@andrewlalis afaik composters help because they _arent_ an inventory (not even a block entity) but hoppers have specific code to extract from them still which causes significantly less lag than item entity/inventory checks.
Also note that on Paper, the repeater/comparator locking method works even better since it by default uses a much more optimised redstone engine.
Ilmango target audience: Ilmango.
This is a major reason I nearly always just go for a modest furnace array in my base that I can run roughly all the time vs some massive thing I have to go out of my way to afk at. Though I will say a lot of the more advanced furnace set ups would double or triple in size to try and get the locking system fitted in without messing with anything else.
you can use portal chunk loading so you don't need to AFK next to it
I wish Mojang would work more on multithreading
I think time ago you tasted hopper lag and fund out differences between the items that the hopper has and the items a chest above the hopper has. I don't know if it still the same.
Other thing is hoppers do produce lag and much time are for the transportation of items, for example a line of hoppers. The problem with that is even the intention is only to move an item from a hopper to another the hoppers still trying to find items above them. So, here's my idea, the creation of a new item that is a tube. It would replace the hopper in this case and as it won't try to constantly search for items above it would have les lag. I like this idea, and some times people would told me adding items to a game already have to much and an inventory problem is not good. But mojang is already adding a good amount of items, and some if them I would say they are not much useful, so... I don't think a new item that is useful is a bad thing
I think I'm part of another subset that needs to lock. I play on a small multiplayer server, normally
I wonder why hoppers check for entities above rather than entities checking for hoppers below? A lot of entities would of course do the same amount of work as a lot of hoppers now, but only when the farm is active.
purely speculative but i think part of it might be something like
If entities checked for hoppers
you have 6 stacks of itwms dropping onto a hopper. They all ask the hopper to get in at the same time, but the hoper can only hold 5 stacks
How does the game handle this? idk randomly tells certain groups of items to chill, because they only pick up so mamy items in a tick. They keep constamtly asking the hopper to get in but sorry only so many can get in.
vs
Hopper checks for stuff above them: Oh nothing k.
If there is something i'll choose some of you to come in me. Alright next check. oh still more things okay.
i'm sure they could do either tbh but it"s probablynot worth reworking the entirety of entity code to add a check for the block below.
@@radishhat5736 My first approach would be to make entities notify hoppers whenever they enter or exit the hopper's range. The game could maintain a map from hoppers to entities based on that, removing hoppers from the map when their entity sets become empty. Only hoppers in the map would need to process entities, and they would already know which ones are in range.
thank you for this video I've been waiting for it since the first furnace array video
I love the epic furnace array at the beginning
I saw in a video of someone else, that the lag redstone dust creates comes in big part of the light update of the sourounding area. He used simply some stady light sources against it. If the light is already 15, it will not be changed by extra light. Your test was on daylight, so I don't know if this counts for your video, but for other havy redstone stuff undergrounds/at night it could change a lot.
Thank you very much
I found this type of video gold for my server
The thumbnail is... special :D
I only put a lever on my furnace (3 people on the server at most) because it lets me lock it near the end to grab something out for the xp.
I always thought hoppers would drain more resources than that, really informative! I would like to know all the other little tips to keep the lag down on a server
12:31 based Mango
I used hoppers in a decorative build (part of robots) and could only lock some of them. But I filled them up hoping it helped. I feel confirmed in my choice!
Some of your videos have so many hoppers over so much distance that I have to install chunk loaders under my neighbors' computers just so I can watch them.
you can tell this is a response video to a certain someone who commented on the last smelter related video
11:33 Something to consider in early versions is that light speed had a delay each morning and evening.
People said it looked terrible. I'm sorry. But it's very accurate.
I love this kind of analytical videos
thanks for the video, it was actually really helpfull since i'm planning on building a 256furnace array on my personal server(for me and my friend) and i was wondering if it would affect the server or not, this solved my questions. Also, i'm one of those who always put composter over hopper and i have teach my fellow friends to do the same and now i can give them number to tell them by how much it help. reducing from 1.4ms to 0.3ms is quite a lot(relatively), we all build medium to really large redstone contraptions(and share them as to not build the same redstone contraption twice or more) my futur furnace array and my last redstone project combined have over 1000 hopper and they are not the last projects i have in mind, obviously they aren't being all loaded all the time but for some redstone contraptions we put chunkloaders and some others are being used often so if someone is afk farming somewhere, in the end it will add up and start causing lag. i'm glad to see we are already doing best practice for the futur of the server :)
Still my favorite part about these videos is the intro
Great video, very detailed and scientific!
I think this is more useful if you want to build a bib-big sorting system. Like sorting every single item, and for each a shulker loader, and multiple chest for them. That type of system needs more hopper and usually people build it in their bases, so I started thinking, I will have to build an locking system to it for turn off mode
Um depends really, on how many other farms you wanna load at once, how powerful your computer/server is, and just the scale of the furnace in general. Also depends on location i guess. If it's in the spawn chunks and it's got like 1728 furnaces your spawn is screwed without hopper locking
Why would you do that though 😂😂
ilmango has made lag test and comparison videos in the past for hoppers, redstone, entities, light updats, water etc. but the last one of those videos was about 3 years ago. The game has changed a lot since then so I'd love to see a new general/all-encompassing lag video.
working on that right now. There will probably be 2 videos. the second one will be all the stuff I forgot about and people suggested
@@ilmango Sweet, good to know. Thanks for the reply.
Hermitcraft, please take note. I'm looking at you Mumbo!
Thanks for the deep-dive into this! But I wonder, can hoppers cause client lag? I have an item-sorting-system that causes a lot of FPS lag, I always suspected the hoppers, but can't say for sure. Do you have any tips to maybe troubleshoot this?
Could you do a deep dive into sorting systems and lag? I want to build a large system without lagging the realm.
A few years back the most lag was due to hopper filters, when hoppers had random items they could not filter out.
These new thumbnails are great. They need some polishing and a single style maybe, but keep trying them.
New thumbnails?
No longer just a minecraft screenshot but also effects and graphics like the ghost
@@niceowl As long as it doesn't turn into the messy clickbait s***show that most popular YT thumbnails are these days...
I'll aways prefer the clean and professional look
Those who know vs those who don’t know
I wonder if having some item entities in the world increases unlocked hopper lag? I mean checking empty list may be significantly faster than checking non empty list.
Hoppers only check the block right above.
That would depend on how the game optimizes checking items for pickup. I don't know how the game does it, but it's highly unlikely that every hopper checks every item everywhere. The game might just check every item in the all chunks that the hopper collection volume intersects, but I don't actually know. I'm actually kind of curious how mojang solved this problem.
The best hoppers are the friends we made along the way,
What happened to 4x4?
Speedy thing goes in, speedy things come out. Very simple.
Much less of a headache when its buried...as long as people on Earth don't forget about them.
That could be awkward. Also, why did I just eat coffee?
I'd like to know the effect of item entities nearby (e.g. water transport). Would the number of items multiply the number of hopper-collection checks?
The only redstone lag efficiency I know to do is composters on top of hoppers. Doubt it helps much, but it feels like 'good practice' when planning to tackle larger farms down the line.
This is the moment Imango became Lalo Salamanca
my guess on this: the redstone dust is probably more laggy than the hoppers :D
I think there is a little mistake in your testing, if the array/list of entities is more or less empty then the hoppers will have less coordinates of items to check. But in a normal world the entity list is full of entities where every hopper has to go trough that list, check if its an item, check if the coordinates match, check its internal state if that item can fit and then remove it from the entity list and add it to its own inventory to an item stack or create one.
I had that problem on a private Sevtech server where hoppers were a good cause of lag, especially in large strainer setups with our farms nearby. Add conveyor belts with items traveling trough the whole base to the mix and you can see where we went to Lagtown.
Would love to see ilmango go onto the Hermitcraft server and do a video of him figuring out all the lag at spawn and fixing it
Basically just killing all the villagers and animals would probably solve like 90% of it
item frames and the armor stand mod probably are major contributors, too
@@colehanna4040 i was surprised how many villagers impulse had when he moved them, and iskall85's breeder making infinite villagers wouldn't have helped either lol
Scicrafters are odd birds, but I love them
I've been playing for ages, and I should prolly know this, but I don't .. soo .. why composters? If I understood it correctly the goal is to block the hopper top from checking for item entities. Would any block of height 1 do? Or does it have to be composters?
I once asked myself the exact same question and checked the code. Even if you place a block above a hopper, it will still perform checks. An item could be pushed into the block and the hopper would still catch it. If a chest (or any block that stores items) is placed upon the hopper, the check becomes much cheaper, since it only has to check the related block entity. Composters are even better because it only needs to check the block state.
@@Malangs92 thank you very much!
i am that single player with the lever on the 2 furnace version! i dont care about lag but i am greedy about xp so even though i have that lever i only flip it to get xp and then turn it back off :D
Keeping it real.
Not everyone needs locked hoppers
This was the exact question I had when I joined a server recently, in particular there was a player's shop that was filled with hoppers and it felt extremely laggy with my FPS dropping for some reason to 10 from 30.
After helping and optimizing his hoppers and replacing what chests that could be with barrels, the lag actually improved significantly, and my FPS didn't drop. It was totally worth it.
if you are already running a clock every 10 seconds, is it better to insert the items using a dropper?
You still need the minecarts to distribute the items into the droppers then in that case
Can droppers even interact with furnaces?
I clicked just because the thumbnail is hilarious
So is having a furnace array in the spawn chunks a bad idea? I thought it would be smart so I can do other things while all the items are smelting, but now I realize it's a lot of hoppers that are constantly loaded.
You can achieve the same by using nether portal chunk loading
I swear I love banksy
what a lovely guy!
10:32 could it be due to the item having to produce an outcome that would be ejected but get/triggers the if of the movement to the next container entity? Would be spawning flag thinking about it now.
Spawning specifically refers to mob spawning. Items don't "spawn" from inventories.
@@TheRealWormbo well, no, but I could see where flagging an entity as "spawning" before classing it properly could be a feasible process
A lot of what I do is guesswork, and intuition. Most of this we never get to use, or build. And that's just peachy.
Gets a little irritating when the Mathematics groups haven't caught up. Matching the guesses to their proper time and space is difficult, and not something the control group gets to do.
Edit: I mean, literally, THIS IS PRACTICAL. A lot of fires start this way. People forgetting to lock their systems down, and switch them off when unneeded. Not everyone is as friendly as the Doctor on Voyager. Something to think about for science. Technically, we hae. Technically, we have holograms and candy grams already.
did auto hopper unlocking furnace array with 64 furnaces like 3 minutes before ilmango published this video
Maybe I'm being demanding, but a video on best practices towards anti-lag wouldn't be a bad idea. :3
Interesting and informative
Hermicraft need this video !!
13:10 calling out all of my servermates lol
i make servers with my friends of 10 people, so only i and one of my friends like to play the tecnical way. We always try to reduce the most lag possible
I liked this video!
Can you read my mind this is the second video this weak on things i needed to know
The moment a industrial district is strained by x hoppers per chunk literally all loaded area around the player being farms and stuff
Heh, over in Bedrock all my furnaces have levers on them for a really squirrel reason that has nothing to do with lag; the furnace exp bug. They patched it, but the habit remains.
A mod that let's you see what is actually causing you lag would be very useful.
Carpet mod does that
Do you know what of observer and 2gt repeater is better in terms of lag?
Do item entities in the same subchunks make any difference?