I'm not against electronic shifting at all, I just don't want to have to keep something else charged, and like the simplicity of a mechanical system. Hoping we continue to have the option of electronic vs mechanical in the future!
I used the Sram AXS system on my ten days on the GDMBR. Extra battery and charger, but never needed to charge during my ten days. The lack of shifter cables allowed me to set my bags up easier. I also have two of the tips of my fingers amputated so the lack of grip strength didn’t affect my shifting on the long days in the saddle.
I used etap AXS on my gravel bike for about 18 months before I switched back to mechanical shifting. My primary motivation for switching back was that I wanted to simplify my bike maintenance routine and regularly charging my etap batteries added one more little thing I had to remember to do. Additionally, even though I regularly charged my derailleur batteries, I did find myself without shifting when one of my CR batteries in the shifter itself decided it was done. After that, I decided to regularly replace those CR batteries which added yet another , albeit much less frequent, maintenance task to my bike, and to be honest it felt really wasteful doing so since I had no idea how much juice was left in them before I tossed them out of principle of preventative maintenance. I do often miss the crisp shifting and robot noises, but I also enjoy a bike that doesn’t ask a lot from me. Great video Neil
Love all the videos you guys create. One nerdy comment about the break-in period for mechanical shifting. I worked as a bike mechanic for 10 years and heard the 'shift cables will stretch' explanation Many times as well. However, when I attended the John Barnett bike maintenance course they shared a slightly different explanation - the cables don't stretch at all (it's a braided steel cable, how much stretch could that allow?). They asserted that any secondary adjustment was likely due to the cable housing settling into the end caps. (Like, if the housing wasn't cut exactly square, the first shifts would compress the housing into the end cap slightly). Anyway, I thought their explanation made a lot of sense and was pretty interesting and wanted to share, whether or not it is 'the truth'. Cheers and all the best for a rad 2022!
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. Damn cable housing always making it difficult for us! More reason for clean cuts and diligences in the first place. Rock on!
It is, indeed, the truth. If you grind the ends of your housing with a dremel on the install, and make sure to settle everything in right away, then cable "stretch" doesn't exist.
@@kimkrimson I just use a cut off wheel like a grinding disc and just get the end nice and flat. You have to do it in short bursts or it gets too hot and melts the plastic all weird.
For me one of the best advantages about electronic shifting is the ability to set up multiple shift positions. Having switches on the aero bars is the greatest thing ever
You know, one thing that might make electronic shifting appealing to me would be really broad cross-compatibility. Like if I bought a Shimano 13-speed MTB shifter 10 years from now, it would be compatible with a 10-speed road derailleur from 5 years ago, in on either a 10-speed or 13-speed drivetrain, or anything in-between. Currently I have bikes with friction shifter, bikes with 20-year-old rear derailleurs, bikes with road shifters running MTB rear derailleurs, etc. Sometimes this is tricky or takes Goat Links or Problem Solvers to make this work, but other times you luck out and it works great on its own. With electronic shifting, there is no real reason for derailleurs and shifters to NOT be compatible. Length of a derailleur cage could limit gear range, but other than that, why not? THAT would be a selling point I would be interested in.
Archer Components D1x is pretty much what you're describing: taking any mechanical rear mech and feed the cable to a wireless actuator. You then tells the system how many gears there are.
@@greatgoofy I concur. I have used the Archer D1x for several years and it’s a really easy package to setup and adjust - and it’s brand agnostic. They even mix component brands on their YouTub channel just to prove how versatile it is. The D1x, it has advantages over Shimano and SRAM with the set up and adjustments. But the down side is its form factor. Still a great company with very personal customer support!
@RollinRat I hear ya. I tried to order a pair of thru axles for my bike last week. The number of "standards" is obscene. Why couldn't they just pick one thread pitch and 1 or 2 lengths when they switched to Boost? Ridiculous. As for friction shifting, my favorite bike is my touring bike (a bike that can do anything), 3x10-speed friction shifting, its always flawless.
I love my SRAM AXS system on my Trek Top Fuel, and plan to update my Borealis fatbike to AXS as well. As a woman with small hands, shifting is so much faster and easier. I just ordered a Pivot Les with AXS, that I plan on doing the GDMBR on. Carrying a couple of extra batteries isn’t an issue, as they’re small and light. Love these types of videos.
I have GRX Di2 on my gravel bike and AXS on my hard tail. I love it! Set it and forget it. Last year I went on a 5 day trip with a buddy he was constantly adjusting his mechanical set up. I just had to make sure I was charged before we left, and I didn’t have any issues.
Both are perfectly functional. I use the thickest shift cables available and never have to adjust my mechanical setup once installed properly. And even if I have to, it's literally a 5 second job. With the thinner shift cables I had nothing but problems, pure trash.
With electronics, there's not much to go wrong... Fixing a 10-speed, 11-speed, 12-speed drivetrains in, let's say Africa, where you can only get a 9-speed replacement parts, is... Well, make a guess!
@RollinRat so that's settled... any derailleur will work, just need to buy a cable too. The same goes also for electronic shifting. Why would anyone need to have a 500 usd unit shipped over? If you go for 1 month bike packing in South America, Asia, Africa, you better go with 2 x 9 drivetrain, no electronics, no modern technologies, no hydrolic brakes,... Since I will never do that, I assume my longest trip would be 1-2 weeks, I'm fine with electronics and 2 batteries with me. Mind the prices will drop significally very soon, Shimano is about to release new electronic stuff any day now.
What we need is a hub gear with electronic shifting and a built in dynamo as a sealed wireless unit, because if you are moving you are shifting, then add a small dynamo at the front to power the controller and it should be a little more 'set and forget'.
Your video content is amazing...very detailed, engaging yet simple to understand. What is the blue steel MTB frame hanging behind you in this vid? Keep up the awesome work.
Thanks Paul. That bike is a steel hardtail made by Proudfoot Cycles. They are no longer around but they made great bikes, I've been contemplating building it back up, I just need to find the time.
Mark Beaumont biked the entire length of Africa unsupported using a carbon fiber bike with Shimano Di2 electronic shifting, which only needs recharging every 5000 kilometers. I myself use electronic shifting on a carbon bike for bikepacking, a Rose Backroad Limited Di2 modified with a Garbaruk extra long rear derailleur cage to accommodate a Shimano XT 11-47 cassette. The Shimano GRX Di2 is lighter than its mechanical counterpart, as all Shimano electronic group sets are. It is ultra reliable. I see no need to bring an extra Di2 battery because of the extremely long life of the internal battery.
Im a big Di2 fan. Ive built a handful of gravel bikes with it with zero issues. I also built a rigid touring mtb with a combination of Ultegra and xtr components. I intentionally went with a cable operated hydraulic brake system so I could switch between drop bars and flat bars with a simple bar change with levers, grips, shifters, cables, etc permanently installed on each handlebar set. The xtr gear indicator is great in a drop bar application as a replacement for your upper junction box with the obvious added benefit of a gear indicator but also a battery level indicator as well. A good option, if your components allow for it, is to mount a Di2 battery in the steering stem. This way you have a single Di2 cable routed towards the rear of the bike and its easier to access than a seat-post mounted battery.
My Shimano Di2 allows me to pair Ultegra on drop bars with a 2x11 XT drivetrain on my Salsa Fargo ti. That's really cool. Bikepacking...yup. Racing...that too. Problems?...none so far.
my 200cents on this topic: i think theres more nuance in the electronic vs not. good mechanical are arguably better for bikepacking, but not all bikes can use them. e.g. sram eagle with sram cables and hoses is perhaps a better choice as cable stretch isnt a problem and these shift extremely well, while on 2x axs and others are arguably saving a lot of setup time and so on. also, electronic drive trains derailleur hanger can and will bend too. the axs protection mainly protects the expensive derailleur itself, so that the hanger bends or break rather that the servo gears (which is great actually). imo while all the electronic tips in this video are good, the pro and cons section is misleading. i also have various drive trains my my 2016 sram eagle has 10000kms and quite a few week-long bike packing trips, been taken on planes, and around the world. one advantage is that if it breaks really bad im more likely to be able to piece it back together or get a replacement shifter. on the plus side of axs, i can easily remove it before a flight and put it back as setting it up takes 1min, to avoid damage during transport for example. its also great where puttin eagle requires hacks, or where the frame doesnt align just right for 1x, or where i use 2x (i also like di2, but axs can be swapped so easily...)
All good points. The fact that you could say get a 12 speed mechanical system to work with 11 speed mechanical system in a pinch is certainly an upside. And removal of the AXS or even Di2 rear derailleur is so easy, that's a great travel hack. This video had a few variations at its inception but this is how it was born, I think it could have easily been "mech vs electronic" video, but I wanted to simply talk about electronic shifting with a few comparisons along the way. Thanks for the words!
Marji Gesick 😂. I’m signed up this year with 3 friends. We’ll all be running SRAM AXS on our Mt Bikes. Will definitely be carrying an extra battery or two. #freshmeat
Just switched to AXS on my mt bike. It's absolutely not necessary, but I love it and will probably add it to more bikes. It's the little things that just make it more of a pleasure to use.
Two issues for me. First is the price, darn expensive. I'm still struggling with the notion that bikes have cross the $1k barrier, which is now about an electronic groupset's starting point. Second I'm pretty sure that if I actually try electronic I'll go down the rabbit hole and find mental justification to retrofit most of my bike fleet to electronic, which takes me back to the first issue. On a more serious note I do look at my growing pile of dead rechargeable batteries from lights, battery banks, etc and would prefer not to add another source to them if I can avoid it. Disposal is a hassle, and I'm guessing more people than not improperly chuck them into the trash rather than hunting down a proper electronic recycling drop location, which is a hassle, and hence my growing pile of castoffs.
@RollinRat You keep repeating that. There is always something that can go wrong, no technology is fail safe. I started riding a bike with electronic shifting last year, also traveled about 3000km in about a month, riding across bumpy Spanish backroads and single tracks, lots of dirt, across Sierras and over the Pyrenees. Maybe not some real world touring though, maybe I am a sucker. However I know how to prepare and try to pack accordingly. I bring two batteries and a charger, very lightweight, a battery lasts about 1000 km and I could even charge using my dynamo hub. Absolutely not an issue. A derailleur hanger I used to carry before electronic shifting as well. Should my shifting for some reason not work anymore there are differnet options. I could just ride single speed, could even take of the derailleur and find a magic gear. If I happen to find a bike shop I could put a mechanical derailleur on the bike and just clamp the shifter somewhere. I would be more worried about finding a 12 speed-shifter or a cassette fitting my driver. Also not a problem specifically concerning electronic shifting. One more method would be to find a cog and drill some holes to attach it to the hub instead of the break disc and ride the bike with a fixed gear. I get the point people make about riding 26" bikes with rim brakes and technology two to four decades old when getting to remote places. And when I put together my bikepacking rig I thought a lot about electronic or mechanical shifting and hydrolic or mechanical breaking. But I decided to build the bike as I enjoy it and so far I do not experience the electronic shifting to be a particular weak link in my setup. The comfort the electrics give my chronically numb hands far outweigh the potential problems. Honestly, have you ever tried electronic shifting and really made up your mind? I would rather consider it shameless calling people suckers for having a different opinion. Cheers and stay safe out there.
I used Di2 for a muddy cyclocross season, and it performed flawlessly. I loved that I didn’t have to replace cables every week. That said, when I went back to mechanical, I didn’t think twice about it. Electronic shifting is awesome, but (at least for me), it’s not a game changer.
Why not? I still have a buch of 9 speed shimano mtb components. My gear is well maintained and thus crisp shifts. Besides that, it is rock solid build quality not to forget compatibility with 9 speed road levers. IMO It's the environmentally soundest way: to continue using what you have till its worn down before getting something new. ...and Electronics? eh.. too expensive.
look at the Archer components system, it can be configured to shift any rear mech with 2 to 20 gears (you chose) and the cost looks very very reasonable compared to the usual suspects
Shimano has a catch up to do in this area. Sram GX AXS is the best product in last years. Soon the price will come down to more reasonable 300 EUR for the whole package... Perhaps next year already? I (we) will definitely switch to electronic shifting at some point in time... Sram with GX is making this point in time come closer.
One thing i really like about shimanos road di2 shifters is that they are more compact than the mechanical hydro ones (i have small hands), and they feel higher quality because there is no wobbly play in the lever action. i also percieve the braking to be more direct and stronger from the tops but i guess thats due to a better reach with small hands. apart from friction shifting and some hacks they are also the only way to get a modern shimano 2x/3x mtb drivetrain to a monjstergravel/touring bike with dropbars.
I’m in the process of switching over to Rival AXS. For me it was less about the electronic shifting and more about how comfortable the Rival levers feel in my hands. Also Rival is available with a 43/30 chainring combo which paired with a 10-36 gives me a perfect range for the terrain I ride. Right now I’m running a cobbled together system which gives me a similar gear range but it doesn’t shift nearly as well since it’s assembled with parts from 5 different companies rather than just one. Do I worry about my electronic system dying in the middle of Outer Mongolia? Nope, not one bit because….I never plan to make such a trip! Longest trips I plan on taking are only 3-5 days due family obligations and other hobbies. All that said, the cost is still hard to swallow. Hard to imagine a third tier group set costing more than DuraAce or SSC did back in my racing days.
Never going back to mechanical. Stuff breaks now and then and don’t worry about it. The shimano system also cuts power to front derailleur when battery low so you still get longer use of the rear. I wish shimano shift levers were larger though.
The video was already really long, and I could have touched on this, but the RX815 levers are hands down the best lever I've used, the lever feel paired with the 18mm higher brake axis gives me confidence on the ups but certainly on the downs. I think the issues with drop bars generally is the ability to brake, but the rx815 levers handles this very well!
Just to fly my #retrogrouch flag I want to give a shout out to the lowly Friction Thumb Shifter. The most versital & all the reliable ease of use I'll ever need.
I had Shimano Di2 on my TT bike and I used to charge it every 6 months! It was so durable. Upgrading firmware was easy (the down part was that de E-Tube app only ran on Windows and wasn´t available for MacOs). The battery work fine for almost 6 years until I had had to buy a now one. Don't know if I would run eletronic shifting on my gravel bike for bikepacking (mainly because of the price) but if I do I know it will be great. Great video. Cheers!
I don't have anything against electronic shifting. If I was building a XC or road race bike, I might build it up with electronic shifting. But I'm not. Few people are. And I just can't see any compelling reason for it. It shifts faster and more precisely? With minor exception, my bikes shift flawlessly. I don't doubt electronic shifting is better yet but would I actually gain anything from this? Not everyone is a great mechanic and therefore their bikes may not shift great. But if you can't set-up a mechanical shifting system, is an electronic/mechanical transmission really going to be easier to handle? My biggest reason for a lack of interest in electronic shifting is that I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO CHARGE MY BIKE IN ORDER TO RIDE IT. I don't want to have to worry about it on a long ride or multi-day trek, I don't want another thing to think about as I'm rushing to get a ride in after work. Or having to deal with the battery running out of voltage in the cold or wearing out after a few years of use. In the end, I don't see any reason to spend extra money on something that provides no value to me, and makes my life even more complicated than it is.
I agree some times I rush home to ride after work, would be a pain to discover my batteries are discharged and so my ride is over :-( Also batteries are not really ecological especially those CR2032 in the levers . . . But having no shifting cables is appealing in a sense 😇
I did a bike packing trip with a friend, borrowed his bike with Di2, never charged it, stuck in one gear the entire time. Luckily it was the perfect gear and it wasn’t bad. When it’s charged it works real nice.
I agree, but I also always ride with lights, and a head unit that require charging so they always get charged, so I would just charge at the same time. Likewise, you can always have a spare battery in the base of AXS especially. I can see the merits of both. It’s why I’m going to try AXS and if I don’t love it either swap it to another bike, or sell it, but everything other than battery charging seems to think I’ll love it. Plus, it doesn’t require the work arounds I’d need for a “mullet” build
I am Ele-curious, this video has convinced me that i should give them a go. SRAM sounds far easier than Shimano, and lighter due to the smaller batteries, even with carrying a spare for the SRAM. The cost may be prohibitive though.
I have the AXS system on my road and gravel bikes, but I have had some issues with the shifters eating batteries that really gives me concerns about using bikepacking. The derailleur batteries are rock solid - I haven't ridden them since November and I had enough charge to ride today if I had wanted to when I put them in the charger.
A cool setup and super clean looking. But I’ve alway liked mechanical linkages over electronics. Part of the reason I have a hard time trading in my 22 year old truck.
I checked with several top riders who would not use electronic shifting if they had even thought it would hinder them in success in racing, and they all use it. I bought SRAM AXS. However I also hear lots of complains on the Facebook user page? So ….. I do hope it’s all OK. I suspect it’s going to be the future of much shifting but not all.
Both have benifits. I definitely like the electric for the ability to have shifters on aerobars and better shifting. Mechanical is good enough for me if setup well. I'll stick to mechanical for now. A bike should simplify your life. Mechanical is more bombproof and accessible at this present time with more options on the road when touring and longer service life. The electronics eventually die and parts get outdated faster. I am however a fan of dynamos. Electronics will get there eventually and the price will get down in a decade.
I’m about to have a fully custom frame built up and I’m really struggling deciding between 2x9 with down tube shifters or full on electronic shifting. I’m not totally a retrogrouch per se, and I know the performance is great and the weight penalty is minimal, but there’s just something offensive about the idea of needing to update my bicycle’s firmware.
I just got a brand new 2022 Kona sutra LTD It came with rival, mechanical, which I must say, feels fantastic on and off the road. It’s kind of tantamount to an automatic watch, simply, more tactile. If I were to do another comparison, it would be the manual transmission in a car, unequivocally slower than the modern twin clutch transmissions , but better in the mechanical way
One thing I like about electronic shifting is that once the initial adjustments are made, and you don't mess with them, if your shifting degrades you can quickly deduce that you've bent your derailleur hanger. Compared with housing and cables slowly being exposed to contamination, plastic housing liners being constantly worn on by cables in the act of shifting, and the development of corrosion all affecting the level of resistance and precision of shifting. Not having to think about any of that and what is the right level of compromise before deciding to replace is my favorite part about electronic shifting.
The main thing that puts me off electronic shifting is repairing both on the road and at home. With a mechanical mech, no matter how much you prang it you can usually bodge it to get it working and get you home, then just buy the replacement bit you need to repair it. If an electronic motor or circuit board dies, you brake a connector etc your really expensive mech is toast.
I'm running axs gx on my mountain bike and honestly love it easy to manage just carry a battery cache or run dynamo if you can for longer distance rides.
I have built my touring bike with mechanical shifting, just because of that "what if it fails on the Mongolian steppe" thought, while the rest of my bikes all use Di2. And I have to admit there are times when I feel so very over with mechanical shifting. With perfect shifting gradually going out of adjustment so you're after a while kind of used to having crappy shifting, and then you fiddle with that barrel adjuster and it's fine again. I also kind of dislike how shifting the front and rear derailleur feels totally different. DI2 is just fit and forget, and on a long trip I'll bring a bunch of powerbanks anyway so charging won't be a problem. I seriously consider converting it to DI2. Or maybe running DI2 most of the time and convert it back to mechanical whenever I plan to go on a seriously long trip.
I'd love to see a video about clothing and layering etc. I'm so over wearing overpriced Rapha lyrca and want to get some baggies but not sure what I need!
I run full housing and avoid washing my bike with a hose. I often get 2-3 seasons out of a shift cable, which is about the same lifespan that I get out of the actual derailleur. Everything mechanical wears out eventually; the same amount of riding will wear out the swing pivots on a mechanical derailleur or an electronic, but you'll have a much bigger bill to replace the electronic. I'll stick with mechanical instead of charging my derailleur 15 times a season.
got axs on roadbike and bevore that DI2 .... love it both alsways shifts flawless unless battery is death, one of the best things I love is how easy it is when to adjust the rear shifter just push a few buttens.... I usaly just do it when riding.... then you can easy hear if its running good :) My DI2 battery died after 1 year.... got a new one do for free. where I live its pretty flat Netherlandss....so not that mutch shifting DI2 battery last me 4 months riding 10hrs a week. usaly charged it bevore the road season starts, half way and in the end bevore I stored my bike for the winter and pick up the gravelbike.... Now with the Axs system I usaly charge it every 2 weeks and my garmin warns me when to charge it.... only when doing big events or days like 10hrs or so I charge them to be save. for my bikepacking I use mechanical.... just because I dont want the hassle with it. and got to much electronics to charge any way. running a SON dynamo with Forumlader converter, daily charge my phone/garmin/watch/1drone dyi mini battery on a good day of riding and some spare power for small power bank
I have a Di2 system on one of my gravel bikes, but have not expand that in the herd due to cost. Really enjoy the Di2 system, clean, predictable and reliable shifting……the cost v benefit vs other items (like a frame to build up a bike with the stuff laying around) doesn’t prioritize this as high as other things.
having no experience with Shimano DI2 I'm really shocked how short the battery life of these huge batteries is and how often you have to charge them! I have SRAM Red Etap on my TT bike and those small batteries work fine for an entire season without recharging, should be good for weeks or month's on touring bikes. Nonetheless I would not use them for backpacking either (though you can easily take fully charged replacement batteries as they are so small); because if anything happens to any electronic shifting system out there you simply cannot do anything - repairing those is impossible. On the other hand a mechanical shifting system can always be fixed if you are a bit used to maintenance
Still not convinced. More weight. More cost. Possibly another item that can fail. And yet another component to maintain periodically (namely, charging). This is a great video and I'm glad other brands aside from SRAM and Shimano were covered. We really need to lessen the power of the duopoly here. Sure they make great products, but they have a huge sway in industry focus. It's also half the reason many folks out there can't purchase new bikes. And now that the newest Dura Ace models are di2 only, it's very well possible that the next Ultegra models will be electronic only too. Pretty soon, the road/gravel enthusiast will have little choice but to pay extra for these non-imperative features in the name for profits.
I think you need to choose your systems accourding to your bike preferences and places you go. I'm from Costa Rica and I can't imagine having an issue with electronic shifting here, in the middle of a jungle or far away from a boutique cycling shops the only place here where you will find anything if you do... and if something happen prices for replacement and inports can leave you in a really bad situation. True, mechanic can fail too but is mechanic, at the end you can find somebody with an idea of how to fix it, if you haven't done it, because the system is simple. Having to carry extra bateries seems to me like more problems when you want to go as light as you can for a trip. My personal advise is always to know where you are going... if is in the middle of nowhere then simple is better, if you are close to a boutique bikeshop then go for electronic.
What brand is that square (top view) external battery pack that you use to charge your SRAM batteries? Link? Also recently seen the PedalCell. It appears to be hundreds better than a dynamo hub... charges faster.... also even at a hike-a-bike pace, at least what I have seen in the TH-cam ads.... doesn't work with carbon rims though.
I'm seriously considering XT di2 for my next build because it's about the same price as GRX 1x11 and XT di2 can be reprogrammed to the GRX di2 levers. I don't like the proprietary chargers I wish someone would just development a USB C adapter.
Best idea for Di2 I got from Jay Petervary's video explaining his long distance racing set-up. If you're having frame bags on your bike anyway, just give up a little storage space and route your battery in the bag instead of hard to reach inside your seat post: th-cam.com/video/4HKOLR81S7U/w-d-xo.html
I recently set up and sold a bikepacking specific 1994 Cannondale rig. I had bags made on Etsy and worked with the craftsman to add a pocket inside the frame bag for the DI2 battery and internal routing for the wiring (along the top tube w/Velcro attached to keep it in place). Wish I had pictures.
I am interested in Di2 because I can afford it not because electronic shifting is a game changer. Problems with electronics will occur unexpectedly. Standards in electronics evolve very fast. Soon no more parts, no more batteries. No more gradual upgrades, we have to upgrade the whole system. We will live in a different world. Convenient but much costlier.
I've never used e shifting and don't see myself using it either. I'm sure these systems work great and are reliable I just don't think shifting is that big of a deal. I'm running 1x12 with gripshift and can go up and down the cluster at will. Not that hard.
I've talked to bike mechanics who all said electronic shifting is nice but, definitely a non necessity and more complicated to set up. Also, there is the risk of software bugs. As per why I'll Never run an electronic shifting system is that it is one more thing I have to charge, cables are more reliable (use common sense and don't do big trips w/fresh cables plus, let them stretch first, check shifter cables pretrip), and just the simple fact that purely mechanical shifting has worked for the last 60 years with periodic updates speaks to the durability and relative simplicity of mechanical shifting. Additionally, haven't yet broken a shifter cable; they've ended their lives super-stretched beyond ideal operational parameters when I had them replaced but, that's about it.
imo the main issue is that most mechanical drivetrains require constant adjustments to work great and these adjustments require a skilled mechanic (home or not). electronics make all this easy. a modern 1x mechanical is imo every bike as precise and reliable as electronic, if slightly longer to initially setup. my sram eagle setups are particularly bulletproof especially of you use the proper cables and hoses (ie sram's), you dont even have a burn in period or anything like that. last i needed to touch my derailpeur is 2y ago, and it gets riden for many hours every week of the year .. and its a mtb. it jumps. it falls. it gets bounced around. so while you're right imo, theres soe nuance, electronic isnt bad either, and old drivetrains are worse :)
@@kangsterizer I use the Box 1 1x11 and so far, so good(!). So yes, i agree with you on the reliability of the new-gen 1x mechanical systems; haven't had to twiddle with it like one had to back in the late 80's or 90's. Additionally, even if I was leaning towards electronic shifting, i would be waiting for the next generation that was 100% internally geared(!).
The wireless AXS system is certainly not more complicated to set up. Just attach derailleur and shifter to bike. Pair them and set the high and low gears and that's it. No having to thread cables through frames and retweak as cables stretch. I just wish it was a lot cheaper.
I'm running axs on my top fuel. Nothing complicated about the setup whatsoever. In fact, way less maintenance than mechanical. The only real downside I can see right now is sram doesn't offer a long cage replacement. They should change this. It's become a moral issue at this point.
@@troycarpenter3675 You have to worry about buggy software upgrades, water/electricity mixing, and battery life with e-shifting. Adding to the list of issues i have also is the negative environmental and human-rights issues that come with Lithium mining (violation of tribal sovernity with proposed mine on Nevada/Oregon boarder area that was also an area where many Native Americans were genocided by the American government at that moment in time; something to think about...) Too much e-b.s. cropping up on bikes and computer crap too(!). Bikes are supposed to be purely mechanical, Affordable, and purely human-powered vehicles that are zen-simple to use and maintain. The boundaries between bike and two or four-wheeled vehicles is starting to seriously blur and not for the better.
And really hard to repair. I actually broke this one on purpose thinking I could fix it, and the two small wires are so small, I gave up. That part was cut out of this video. ;)
The Ultegra Dura-Ace groups, which I argue are not great bikepacking groups, are now 2×12 and the Di2 electronic shifting system was reengineered as a wireless cockpit, but it still uses E-tubes to connect everything else. It's a starts, but I'm scratching my head trying to think how they could make a wireless system without compromising the awesome battery life.
Another potential issue/annoyance I read about is (some/all?) electronic shift designs wait to shift until the cassette is in the exact. right. place. for optimal shifting, while a rider climbing through rocks/logs/bumps may want that shift *NOW* down to the millisecond, not 1/2 of a crank revolution later when the *shifter* decides it's now the best time.
So the rider should also be able to time their triggering the shifter down to the millisecond. I am definetly not that kind of rider and that's probably why I never experienced that problem. But I can tell that my AXS shifts into a larger cog way faster than the double tap shifter on my other bike. Also afaik cassetes have different points to engage with the chain to lift it onto the next larger cog and you just can't shift it any millisecond you like, neither with mechanical nor electronic shifting. Don´t forget the shifting is still working mechanically but the method of engaging the derailleur is different.
I haven't used electronic shifting and probably won't in the future. I can't justify the price difference. Also I feel like I don't want to increase electronic waste. I already produce too much of that as is. Lastly I don't trust the software/hardware 100% not to fail on me.
Well no, electronic shifting doesn't remove the mechanical stage, there is still the derailleur which is mechanical, it just introduces electronic control of that mechanical stage, it's simple control mechanics.
I'm not against electronic shifting at all, I just don't want to have to keep something else charged, and like the simplicity of a mechanical system. Hoping we continue to have the option of electronic vs mechanical in the future!
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I used the Sram AXS system on my ten days on the GDMBR. Extra battery and charger, but never needed to charge during my ten days. The lack of shifter cables allowed me to set my bags up easier. I also have two of the tips of my fingers amputated so the lack of grip strength didn’t affect my shifting on the long days in the saddle.
Carpenter?
I used etap AXS on my gravel bike for about 18 months before I switched back to mechanical shifting. My primary motivation for switching back was that I wanted to simplify my bike maintenance routine and regularly charging my etap batteries added one more little thing I had to remember to do. Additionally, even though I regularly charged my derailleur batteries, I did find myself without shifting when one of my CR batteries in the shifter itself decided it was done. After that, I decided to regularly replace those CR batteries which added yet another , albeit much less frequent, maintenance task to my bike, and to be honest it felt really wasteful doing so since I had no idea how much juice was left in them before I tossed them out of principle of preventative maintenance. I do often miss the crisp shifting and robot noises, but I also enjoy a bike that doesn’t ask a lot from me.
Great video Neil
Love all the videos you guys create. One nerdy comment about the break-in period for mechanical shifting. I worked as a bike mechanic for 10 years and heard the 'shift cables will stretch' explanation Many times as well. However, when I attended the John Barnett bike maintenance course they shared a slightly different explanation - the cables don't stretch at all (it's a braided steel cable, how much stretch could that allow?). They asserted that any secondary adjustment was likely due to the cable housing settling into the end caps. (Like, if the housing wasn't cut exactly square, the first shifts would compress the housing into the end cap slightly). Anyway, I thought their explanation made a lot of sense and was pretty interesting and wanted to share, whether or not it is 'the truth'. Cheers and all the best for a rad 2022!
Interesting, thanks for the explanation. Damn cable housing always making it difficult for us! More reason for clean cuts and diligences in the first place. Rock on!
It is, indeed, the truth. If you grind the ends of your housing with a dremel on the install, and make sure to settle everything in right away, then cable "stretch" doesn't exist.
Yup, true story. Barnett graduate as well 🍻
@@SnootchieBootchies27 amazing. What dremel "head" (bit?) do you use for this?
@@kimkrimson I just use a cut off wheel like a grinding disc and just get the end nice and flat. You have to do it in short bursts or it gets too hot and melts the plastic all weird.
For me one of the best advantages about electronic shifting is the ability to set up multiple shift positions. Having switches on the aero bars is the greatest thing ever
You know, one thing that might make electronic shifting appealing to me would be really broad cross-compatibility. Like if I bought a Shimano 13-speed MTB shifter 10 years from now, it would be compatible with a 10-speed road derailleur from 5 years ago, in on either a 10-speed or 13-speed drivetrain, or anything in-between. Currently I have bikes with friction shifter, bikes with 20-year-old rear derailleurs, bikes with road shifters running MTB rear derailleurs, etc. Sometimes this is tricky or takes Goat Links or Problem Solvers to make this work, but other times you luck out and it works great on its own. With electronic shifting, there is no real reason for derailleurs and shifters to NOT be compatible. Length of a derailleur cage could limit gear range, but other than that, why not? THAT would be a selling point I would be interested in.
Archer Components D1x is pretty much what you're describing: taking any mechanical rear mech and feed the cable to a wireless actuator. You then tells the system how many gears there are.
@@greatgoofy I concur. I have used the Archer D1x for several years and it’s a really easy package to setup and adjust - and it’s brand agnostic. They even mix component brands on their YouTub channel just to prove how versatile it is. The D1x, it has advantages over Shimano and SRAM with the set up and adjustments. But the down side is its form factor. Still a great company with very personal customer support!
@RollinRat I hear ya. I tried to order a pair of thru axles for my bike last week. The number of "standards" is obscene. Why couldn't they just pick one thread pitch and 1 or 2 lengths when they switched to Boost? Ridiculous.
As for friction shifting, my favorite bike is my touring bike (a bike that can do anything), 3x10-speed friction shifting, its always flawless.
I love my SRAM AXS system on my Trek Top Fuel, and plan to update my Borealis fatbike to AXS as well. As a woman with small hands, shifting is so much faster and easier. I just ordered a Pivot Les with AXS, that I plan on doing the GDMBR on. Carrying a couple of extra batteries isn’t an issue, as they’re small and light. Love these types of videos.
I have GRX Di2 on my gravel bike and AXS on my hard tail. I love it! Set it and forget it. Last year I went on a 5 day trip with a buddy he was constantly adjusting his mechanical set up. I just had to make sure I was charged before we left, and I didn’t have any issues.
Both are perfectly functional.
I use the thickest shift cables available and never have to adjust my mechanical setup once installed properly. And even if I have to, it's literally a 5 second job. With the thinner shift cables I had nothing but problems, pure trash.
Which one do you like more?
Maybe your friend should take it to a mechanic next time because that isn’t normal.
The most important thing to remember is that electronics can go bad, unexpectedly. And fixing in a remote location is, well, make a guess!
With electronics, there's not much to go wrong... Fixing a 10-speed, 11-speed, 12-speed drivetrains in, let's say Africa, where you can only get a 9-speed replacement parts, is... Well, make a guess!
@RollinRat so that's settled... any derailleur will work, just need to buy a cable too. The same goes also for electronic shifting. Why would anyone need to have a 500 usd unit shipped over? If you go for 1 month bike packing in South America, Asia, Africa, you better go with 2 x 9 drivetrain, no electronics, no modern technologies, no hydrolic brakes,... Since I will never do that, I assume my longest trip would be 1-2 weeks, I'm fine with electronics and 2 batteries with me. Mind the prices will drop significally very soon, Shimano is about to release new electronic stuff any day now.
Awesome video as always. Keep up the good work, your website is a treasure and deserves all the attention. Cheers!
Thanks Kenny G!
What we need is a hub gear with electronic shifting and a built in dynamo as a sealed wireless unit, because if you are moving you are shifting, then add a small dynamo at the front to power the controller and it should be a little more 'set and forget'.
Your video content is amazing...very detailed, engaging yet simple to understand. What is the blue steel MTB frame hanging behind you in this vid? Keep up the awesome work.
Thanks Paul. That bike is a steel hardtail made by Proudfoot Cycles. They are no longer around but they made great bikes, I've been contemplating building it back up, I just need to find the time.
Mark Beaumont biked the entire length of Africa unsupported using a carbon fiber bike with Shimano Di2 electronic shifting, which only needs recharging every 5000 kilometers.
I myself use electronic shifting on a carbon bike for bikepacking, a Rose Backroad Limited Di2 modified with a Garbaruk extra long rear derailleur cage to accommodate a Shimano XT 11-47 cassette. The Shimano GRX Di2 is lighter than its mechanical counterpart, as all Shimano electronic group sets are. It is ultra reliable. I see no need to bring an extra Di2 battery because of the extremely long life of the internal battery.
SEAM electronic setups can be heavier. Pretty sure GX AXS is.
Im a big Di2 fan. Ive built a handful of gravel bikes with it with zero issues. I also built a rigid touring mtb with a combination of Ultegra and xtr components. I intentionally went with a cable operated hydraulic brake system so I could switch between drop bars and flat bars with a simple bar change with levers, grips, shifters, cables, etc permanently installed on each handlebar set. The xtr gear indicator is great in a drop bar application as a replacement for your upper junction box with the obvious added benefit of a gear indicator but also a battery level indicator as well. A good option, if your components allow for it, is to mount a Di2 battery in the steering stem. This way you have a single Di2 cable routed towards the rear of the bike and its easier to access than a seat-post mounted battery.
My Shimano Di2 allows me to pair Ultegra on drop bars with a 2x11 XT drivetrain on my Salsa Fargo ti. That's really cool. Bikepacking...yup. Racing...that too. Problems?...none so far.
my 200cents on this topic: i think theres more nuance in the electronic vs not. good mechanical are arguably better for bikepacking, but not all bikes can use them. e.g. sram eagle with sram cables and hoses is perhaps a better choice as cable stretch isnt a problem and these shift extremely well, while on 2x axs and others are arguably saving a lot of setup time and so on. also, electronic drive trains derailleur hanger can and will bend too. the axs protection mainly protects the expensive derailleur itself, so that the hanger bends or break rather that the servo gears (which is great actually). imo while all the electronic tips in this video are good, the pro and cons section is misleading. i also have various drive trains my my 2016 sram eagle has 10000kms and quite a few week-long bike packing trips, been taken on planes, and around the world. one advantage is that if it breaks really bad im more likely to be able to piece it back together or get a replacement shifter. on the plus side of axs, i can easily remove it before a flight and put it back as setting it up takes 1min, to avoid damage during transport for example. its also great where puttin eagle requires hacks, or where the frame doesnt align just right for 1x, or where i use 2x (i also like di2, but axs can be swapped so easily...)
All good points. The fact that you could say get a 12 speed mechanical system to work with 11 speed mechanical system in a pinch is certainly an upside. And removal of the AXS or even Di2 rear derailleur is so easy, that's a great travel hack. This video had a few variations at its inception but this is how it was born, I think it could have easily been "mech vs electronic" video, but I wanted to simply talk about electronic shifting with a few comparisons along the way. Thanks for the words!
I made a DIY wireless system from an old shimano mechanical derailleur and I like how the adjustability is much better than mechanical systems.
Marji Gesick 😂. I’m signed up this year with 3 friends. We’ll all be running SRAM AXS on our Mt Bikes. Will definitely be carrying an extra battery or two. #freshmeat
Just switched to AXS on my mt bike. It's absolutely not necessary, but I love it and will probably add it to more bikes. It's the little things that just make it more of a pleasure to use.
Two issues for me. First is the price, darn expensive. I'm still struggling with the notion that bikes have cross the $1k barrier, which is now about an electronic groupset's starting point. Second I'm pretty sure that if I actually try electronic I'll go down the rabbit hole and find mental justification to retrofit most of my bike fleet to electronic, which takes me back to the first issue.
On a more serious note I do look at my growing pile of dead rechargeable batteries from lights, battery banks, etc and would prefer not to add another source to them if I can avoid it. Disposal is a hassle, and I'm guessing more people than not improperly chuck them into the trash rather than hunting down a proper electronic recycling drop location, which is a hassle, and hence my growing pile of castoffs.
@RollinRat You keep repeating that. There is always something that can go wrong, no technology is fail safe. I started riding a bike with electronic shifting last year, also traveled about 3000km in about a month, riding across bumpy Spanish backroads and single tracks, lots of dirt, across Sierras and over the Pyrenees. Maybe not some real world touring though, maybe I am a sucker. However I know how to prepare and try to pack accordingly. I bring two batteries and a charger, very lightweight, a battery lasts about 1000 km and I could even charge using my dynamo hub. Absolutely not an issue. A derailleur hanger I used to carry before electronic shifting as well. Should my shifting for some reason not work anymore there are differnet options. I could just ride single speed, could even take of the derailleur and find a magic gear. If I happen to find a bike shop I could put a mechanical derailleur on the bike and just clamp the shifter somewhere. I would be more worried about finding a 12 speed-shifter or a cassette fitting my driver. Also not a problem specifically concerning electronic shifting. One more method would be to find a cog and drill some holes to attach it to the hub instead of the break disc and ride the bike with a fixed gear. I get the point people make about riding 26" bikes with rim brakes and technology two to four decades old when getting to remote places. And when I put together my bikepacking rig I thought a lot about electronic or mechanical shifting and hydrolic or mechanical breaking. But I decided to build the bike as I enjoy it and so far I do not experience the electronic shifting to be a particular weak link in my setup. The comfort the electrics give my chronically numb hands far outweigh the potential problems. Honestly, have you ever tried electronic shifting and really made up your mind? I would rather consider it shameless calling people suckers for having a different opinion. Cheers and stay safe out there.
I used Di2 for a muddy cyclocross season, and it performed flawlessly. I loved that I didn’t have to replace cables every week. That said, when I went back to mechanical, I didn’t think twice about it. Electronic shifting is awesome, but (at least for me), it’s not a game changer.
Why not? I still have a buch of 9 speed shimano mtb components. My gear is well maintained and thus crisp shifts. Besides that, it is rock solid build quality not to forget compatibility with 9 speed road levers. IMO It's the environmentally soundest way: to continue using what you have till its worn down before getting something new. ...and Electronics? eh.. too expensive.
look at the Archer components system, it can be configured to shift any rear mech with 2 to 20 gears (you chose) and the cost looks very very reasonable compared to the usual suspects
Shimano has a catch up to do in this area. Sram GX AXS is the best product in last years. Soon the price will come down to more reasonable 300 EUR for the whole package... Perhaps next year already? I (we) will definitely switch to electronic shifting at some point in time... Sram with GX is making this point in time come closer.
One thing i really like about shimanos road di2 shifters is that they are more compact than the mechanical hydro ones (i have small hands), and they feel higher quality because there is no wobbly play in the lever action. i also percieve the braking to be more direct and stronger from the tops but i guess thats due to a better reach with small hands. apart from friction shifting and some hacks they are also the only way to get a modern shimano 2x/3x mtb drivetrain to a monjstergravel/touring bike with dropbars.
I’m in the process of switching over to Rival AXS. For me it was less about the electronic shifting and more about how comfortable the Rival levers feel in my hands. Also Rival is available with a 43/30 chainring combo which paired with a 10-36 gives me a perfect range for the terrain I ride. Right now I’m running a cobbled together system which gives me a similar gear range but it doesn’t shift nearly as well since it’s assembled with parts from 5 different companies rather than just one. Do I worry about my electronic system dying in the middle of Outer Mongolia? Nope, not one bit because….I never plan to make such a trip! Longest trips I plan on taking are only 3-5 days due family obligations and other hobbies. All that said, the cost is still hard to swallow. Hard to imagine a third tier group set costing more than DuraAce or SSC did back in my racing days.
Electronic for the win! Love it on my road bike and will upgrade my gravel bike this year. Side note, what shirt are you wearing?
hahaha , i was thinking the same thing "nice shirt!" :p
Never going back to mechanical.
Stuff breaks now and then and don’t worry about it.
The shimano system also cuts power to front derailleur when battery low so you still get longer use of the rear.
I wish shimano shift levers were larger though.
The video was already really long, and I could have touched on this, but the RX815 levers are hands down the best lever I've used, the lever feel paired with the 18mm higher brake axis gives me confidence on the ups but certainly on the downs. I think the issues with drop bars generally is the ability to brake, but the rx815 levers handles this very well!
Di2 can be charged while in use with a fairly small battery bank to full.
Just to fly my #retrogrouch flag I want to give a shout out to the lowly Friction Thumb Shifter. The most versital & all the reliable ease of use I'll ever need.
This!! The whole video made friction more appealing
I had Shimano Di2 on my TT bike and I used to charge it every 6 months! It was so durable. Upgrading firmware was easy (the down part was that de E-Tube app only ran on Windows and wasn´t available for MacOs). The battery work fine for almost 6 years until I had had to buy a now one. Don't know if I would run eletronic shifting on my gravel bike for bikepacking (mainly because of the price) but if I do I know it will be great.
Great video. Cheers!
I don't have anything against electronic shifting. If I was building a XC or road race bike, I might build it up with electronic shifting. But I'm not. Few people are. And I just can't see any compelling reason for it. It shifts faster and more precisely? With minor exception, my bikes shift flawlessly. I don't doubt electronic shifting is better yet but would I actually gain anything from this? Not everyone is a great mechanic and therefore their bikes may not shift great. But if you can't set-up a mechanical shifting system, is an electronic/mechanical transmission really going to be easier to handle?
My biggest reason for a lack of interest in electronic shifting is that I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO CHARGE MY BIKE IN ORDER TO RIDE IT. I don't want to have to worry about it on a long ride or multi-day trek, I don't want another thing to think about as I'm rushing to get a ride in after work. Or having to deal with the battery running out of voltage in the cold or wearing out after a few years of use. In the end, I don't see any reason to spend extra money on something that provides no value to me, and makes my life even more complicated than it is.
I agree some times I rush home to ride after work, would be a pain to discover my batteries are discharged and so my ride is over :-( Also batteries are not really ecological especially those CR2032 in the levers . . . But having no shifting cables is appealing in a sense 😇
Here here
I did a bike packing trip with a friend, borrowed his bike with Di2, never charged it, stuck in one gear the entire time. Luckily it was the perfect gear and it wasn’t bad. When it’s charged it works real nice.
I agree, but I also always ride with lights, and a head unit that require charging so they always get charged, so I would just charge at the same time. Likewise, you can always have a spare battery in the base of AXS especially. I can see the merits of both. It’s why I’m going to try AXS and if I don’t love it either swap it to another bike, or sell it, but everything other than battery charging seems to think I’ll love it. Plus, it doesn’t require the work arounds I’d need for a “mullet” build
I am Ele-curious, this video has convinced me that i should give them a go. SRAM sounds far easier than Shimano, and lighter due to the smaller batteries, even with carrying a spare for the SRAM. The cost may be prohibitive though.
JayP won the divide B2B on Di2 as well
I have the AXS system on my road and gravel bikes, but I have had some issues with the shifters eating batteries that really gives me concerns about using bikepacking. The derailleur batteries are rock solid - I haven't ridden them since November and I had enough charge to ride today if I had wanted to when I put them in the charger.
Why am I not using electronic shifting?... 1. Price 2. can't find an AXS HRD brakeset to even try finish the mullet build
A cool setup and super clean looking. But I’ve alway liked mechanical linkages over electronics. Part of the reason I have a hard time trading in my 22 year old truck.
I checked with several top riders who would not use electronic shifting if they had even thought it would hinder them in success in racing, and they all use it. I bought SRAM AXS. However I also hear lots of complains on the Facebook user page? So ….. I do hope it’s all OK. I suspect it’s going to be the future of much shifting but not all.
Both have benifits. I definitely like the electric for the ability to have shifters on aerobars and better shifting. Mechanical is good enough for me if setup well. I'll stick to mechanical for now. A bike should simplify your life. Mechanical is more bombproof and accessible at this present time with more options on the road when touring and longer service life. The electronics eventually die and parts get outdated faster. I am however a fan of dynamos. Electronics will get there eventually and the price will get down in a decade.
I’m about to have a fully custom frame built up and I’m really struggling deciding between 2x9 with down tube shifters or full on electronic shifting. I’m not totally a retrogrouch per se, and I know the performance is great and the weight penalty is minimal, but there’s just something offensive about the idea of needing to update my bicycle’s firmware.
I just got a brand new 2022 Kona sutra LTD
It came with rival, mechanical, which I must say, feels fantastic on and off the road. It’s kind of tantamount to an automatic watch, simply, more tactile. If I were to do another comparison, it would be the manual transmission in a car, unequivocally slower than the modern twin clutch transmissions , but better in the mechanical way
One thing I like about electronic shifting is that once the initial adjustments are made, and you don't mess with them, if your shifting degrades you can quickly deduce that you've bent your derailleur hanger. Compared with housing and cables slowly being exposed to contamination, plastic housing liners being constantly worn on by cables in the act of shifting, and the development of corrosion all affecting the level of resistance and precision of shifting. Not having to think about any of that and what is the right level of compromise before deciding to replace is my favorite part about electronic shifting.
Excellent point.
The main thing that puts me off electronic shifting is repairing both on the road and at home. With a mechanical mech, no matter how much you prang it you can usually bodge it to get it working and get you home, then just buy the replacement bit you need to repair it. If an electronic motor or circuit board dies, you brake a connector etc your really expensive mech is toast.
I'm running axs gx on my mountain bike and honestly love it easy to manage just carry a battery cache or run dynamo if you can for longer distance rides.
I have built my touring bike with mechanical shifting, just because of that "what if it fails on the Mongolian steppe" thought, while the rest of my bikes all use Di2. And I have to admit there are times when I feel so very over with mechanical shifting. With perfect shifting gradually going out of adjustment so you're after a while kind of used to having crappy shifting, and then you fiddle with that barrel adjuster and it's fine again. I also kind of dislike how shifting the front and rear derailleur feels totally different. DI2 is just fit and forget, and on a long trip I'll bring a bunch of powerbanks anyway so charging won't be a problem. I seriously consider converting it to DI2. Or maybe running DI2 most of the time and convert it back to mechanical whenever I plan to go on a seriously long trip.
I'd love to see a video about clothing and layering etc. I'm so over wearing overpriced Rapha lyrca and want to get some baggies but not sure what I need!
I run full housing and avoid washing my bike with a hose. I often get 2-3 seasons out of a shift cable, which is about the same lifespan that I get out of the actual derailleur. Everything mechanical wears out eventually; the same amount of riding will wear out the swing pivots on a mechanical derailleur or an electronic, but you'll have a much bigger bill to replace the electronic. I'll stick with mechanical instead of charging my derailleur 15 times a season.
got axs on roadbike and bevore that DI2 .... love it both alsways shifts flawless unless battery is death, one of the best things I love is how easy it is when to adjust the rear shifter just push a few buttens.... I usaly just do it when riding.... then you can easy hear if its running good :)
My DI2 battery died after 1 year.... got a new one do for free. where I live its pretty flat Netherlandss....so not that mutch shifting DI2 battery last me 4 months riding 10hrs a week. usaly charged it bevore the road season starts, half way and in the end bevore I stored my bike for the winter and pick up the gravelbike....
Now with the Axs system I usaly charge it every 2 weeks and my garmin warns me when to charge it.... only when doing big events or days like 10hrs or so I charge them to be save.
for my bikepacking I use mechanical.... just because I dont want the hassle with it. and got to much electronics to charge any way.
running a SON dynamo with Forumlader converter, daily charge my phone/garmin/watch/1drone dyi mini battery on a good day of riding and some spare power for small power bank
I have a Di2 system on one of my gravel bikes, but have not expand that in the herd due to cost. Really enjoy the Di2 system, clean, predictable and reliable shifting……the cost v benefit vs other items (like a frame to build up a bike with the stuff laying around) doesn’t prioritize this as high as other things.
having no experience with Shimano DI2 I'm really shocked how short the battery life of these huge batteries is and how often you have to charge them! I have SRAM Red Etap on my TT bike and those small batteries work fine for an entire season without recharging, should be good for weeks or month's on touring bikes. Nonetheless I would not use them for backpacking either (though you can easily take fully charged replacement batteries as they are so small); because if anything happens to any electronic shifting system out there you simply cannot do anything - repairing those is impossible. On the other hand a mechanical shifting system can always be fixed if you are a bit used to maintenance
Still not convinced. More weight. More cost. Possibly another item that can fail. And yet another component to maintain periodically (namely, charging).
This is a great video and I'm glad other brands aside from SRAM and Shimano were covered. We really need to lessen the power of the duopoly here. Sure they make great products, but they have a huge sway in industry focus. It's also half the reason many folks out there can't purchase new bikes. And now that the newest Dura Ace models are di2 only, it's very well possible that the next Ultegra models will be electronic only too. Pretty soon, the road/gravel enthusiast will have little choice but to pay extra for these non-imperative features in the name for profits.
They’ll just have to give Microshift or Gevenalle a shot? There are alternatives out there, they just aren’t as well known.
I think you need to choose your systems accourding to your bike preferences and places you go. I'm from Costa Rica and I can't imagine having an issue with electronic shifting here, in the middle of a jungle or far away from a boutique cycling shops the only place here where you will find anything if you do... and if something happen prices for replacement and inports can leave you in a really bad situation. True, mechanic can fail too but is mechanic, at the end you can find somebody with an idea of how to fix it, if you haven't done it, because the system is simple. Having to carry extra bateries seems to me like more problems when you want to go as light as you can for a trip. My personal advise is always to know where you are going... if is in the middle of nowhere then simple is better, if you are close to a boutique bikeshop then go for electronic.
Giving AXS a shot on my Stagrazer (buying parts as I go). Worst case scenario I don’t love it and it goes on another bike 🤷🏻♂️
What brand is that square (top view) external battery pack that you use to charge your SRAM batteries? Link?
Also recently seen the PedalCell. It appears to be hundreds better than a dynamo hub... charges faster.... also even at a hike-a-bike pace, at least what I have seen in the TH-cam ads.... doesn't work with carbon rims though.
Love the smooth and easy shifts of Di2, never having to use the left shifter, and the long battery life. Don't love the initial wire routing setup.
I'm seriously considering XT di2 for my next build because it's about the same price as GRX 1x11 and XT di2 can be reprogrammed to the GRX di2 levers. I don't like the proprietary chargers I wish someone would just development a USB C adapter.
Best idea for Di2 I got from Jay Petervary's video explaining his long distance racing set-up. If you're having frame bags on your bike anyway, just give up a little storage space and route your battery in the bag instead of hard to reach inside your seat post: th-cam.com/video/4HKOLR81S7U/w-d-xo.html
Good idea, and for folks that already run dropper posts and using Di2, many are doing this.
I recently set up and sold a bikepacking specific 1994 Cannondale rig. I had bags made on Etsy and worked with the craftsman to add a pocket inside the frame bag for the DI2 battery and internal routing for the wiring (along the top tube w/Velcro attached to keep it in place). Wish I had pictures.
I've enjoyed his knowledge and experience as well.
I am interested in Di2 because I can afford it not because electronic shifting is a game changer. Problems with electronics will occur unexpectedly. Standards in electronics evolve very fast. Soon no more parts, no more batteries. No more gradual upgrades, we have to upgrade the whole system. We will live in a different world. Convenient but much costlier.
I've never used e shifting and don't see myself using it either. I'm sure these systems work great and are reliable I just don't think shifting is that big of a deal. I'm running 1x12 with gripshift and can go up and down the cluster at will. Not that hard.
I've talked to bike mechanics who all said electronic shifting is nice but, definitely a non necessity and more complicated to set up. Also, there is the risk of software bugs.
As per why I'll Never run an electronic shifting system is that it is one more thing I have to charge, cables are more reliable (use common sense and don't do big trips w/fresh cables plus, let them stretch first, check shifter cables pretrip), and just the simple fact that purely mechanical shifting has worked for the last 60 years with periodic updates speaks to the durability and relative simplicity of mechanical shifting. Additionally, haven't yet broken a shifter cable; they've ended their lives super-stretched beyond ideal operational parameters when I had them replaced but, that's about it.
imo the main issue is that most mechanical drivetrains require constant adjustments to work great and these adjustments require a skilled mechanic (home or not). electronics make all this easy.
a modern 1x mechanical is imo every bike as precise and reliable as electronic, if slightly longer to initially setup. my sram eagle setups are particularly bulletproof especially of you use the proper cables and hoses (ie sram's), you dont even have a burn in period or anything like that. last i needed to touch my derailpeur is 2y ago, and it gets riden for many hours every week of the year .. and its a mtb. it jumps. it falls. it gets bounced around.
so while you're right imo, theres soe nuance, electronic isnt bad either, and old drivetrains are worse :)
@@kangsterizer I use the Box 1 1x11 and so far, so good(!). So yes, i agree with you on the reliability of the new-gen 1x mechanical systems; haven't had to twiddle with it like one had to back in the late 80's or 90's. Additionally, even if I was leaning towards electronic shifting, i would be waiting for the next generation that was 100% internally geared(!).
The wireless AXS system is certainly not more complicated to set up.
Just attach derailleur and shifter to bike. Pair them and set the high and low gears and that's it. No having to thread cables through frames and retweak as cables stretch. I just wish it was a lot cheaper.
I'm running axs on my top fuel. Nothing complicated about the setup whatsoever. In fact, way less maintenance than mechanical. The only real downside I can see right now is sram doesn't offer a long cage replacement. They should change this. It's become a moral issue at this point.
@@troycarpenter3675 You have to worry about buggy software upgrades, water/electricity mixing, and battery life with e-shifting. Adding to the list of issues i have also is the negative environmental and human-rights issues that come with Lithium mining (violation of tribal sovernity with proposed mine on Nevada/Oregon boarder area that was also an area where many Native Americans were genocided by the American government at that moment in time; something to think about...)
Too much e-b.s. cropping up on bikes and computer crap too(!). Bikes are supposed to be purely mechanical, Affordable, and purely human-powered vehicles that are zen-simple to use and maintain. The boundaries between bike and two or four-wheeled vehicles is starting to seriously blur and not for the better.
When they come out with a wireless system that can accommodate a triple, that's when I'll get interested.
That broken etube wire hurt me in my soul. They are the wolds most expensive tiny pieces of wire
And really hard to repair. I actually broke this one on purpose thinking I could fix it, and the two small wires are so small, I gave up. That part was cut out of this video. ;)
Couldn't you shift the gears of someone riding next to accidentally (or maliciously)?
No.
@@ickeausberlin36 well not yet anyways, I'm sure people are working on it!
@@davetbassbos Sorry, I though you had a serious question, not a suspicion covered in a rhetorical one. My fault.
@@ickeausberlin36 no, my fault, I was being a wise guy. I'm kind of a retro-grouch who is still suspicious of integrated shifters! cheers!
Thank you for your review and opinion.
Did you know DI2 is now wireless too?
Cheers
The Ultegra Dura-Ace groups, which I argue are not great bikepacking groups, are now 2×12 and the Di2 electronic shifting system was reengineered as a wireless cockpit, but it still uses E-tubes to connect everything else. It's a starts, but I'm scratching my head trying to think how they could make a wireless system without compromising the awesome battery life.
Another potential issue/annoyance I read about is (some/all?) electronic shift designs wait to shift until the cassette is in the exact. right. place. for optimal shifting, while a rider climbing through rocks/logs/bumps may want that shift *NOW* down to the millisecond, not 1/2 of a crank revolution later when the *shifter* decides it's now the best time.
So the rider should also be able to time their triggering the shifter down to the millisecond. I am definetly not that kind of rider and that's probably why I never experienced that problem. But I can tell that my AXS shifts into a larger cog way faster than the double tap shifter on my other bike. Also afaik cassetes have different points to engage with the chain to lift it onto the next larger cog and you just can't shift it any millisecond you like, neither with mechanical nor electronic shifting. Don´t forget the shifting is still working mechanically but the method of engaging the derailleur is different.
I could see me trying eagle e-tap on my mtb first
I haven't used electronic shifting and probably won't in the future.
I can't justify the price difference. Also I feel like I don't want to increase electronic waste. I already produce too much of that as is. Lastly I don't trust the software/hardware 100% not to fail on me.
Well no, electronic shifting doesn't remove the mechanical stage, there is still the derailleur which is mechanical, it just introduces electronic control of that mechanical stage, it's simple control mechanics.
Booo! Friction shifters for life!! …
😂
Lol, how does cable rub ruin a frame? If you want to keep your frame looking brand new, maybe bikepacking isn't the best choice.
Single speed with a dynamo is elektrik
more than 100% not worth it
The possibility of that is 0%.
thats how gear wars have begun 😂