For the people commenting about the mic directly in front of the sub array: No, it's not used live. It's only for demonstration. The feedback path that he describes is a parasitic effect of any live sound gig, even without the demo mic. Having the demo mic there is simply a way to exaggerate the effect to make the point.
@@powdermnky007 Ehh...sorta, but not in a way that is useful. What you're describing is exactly what we call feedback, which is usually a bad thing, and the entire purpose of this trick is to *avoid* feedback. The reason it's bad is because it's an endless iterative process. If you take 1x sound from the mic and run it through the electronics, then you get 1x sound from the speaker. That then combines with the original 1x to put 2x into the mic. That 2x goes through the electronics and comes out the speaker. That then combines with the original 1x to put 3x into the mic. That 3x goes through the electronics and comes out the speaker. That then combines with the original 1x to put 4x into the mic. That 4x goes through the electronics and comes out the speaker. Etc. If you have the "volume control" any higher than exactly 1:1 (we don't actually call them that because we have tons of them that are subtly different), then it's even worse. 1x in might produce 1.1x out, add the original 1x, then 2.1x in produces 2.31x out, etc. Pretty soon, you're just playing a square wave at full power. Not good. The trick in this video makes it come out differently from how it went in, so that it still sounds good, but multiple iterations of that difference make it unplayable and so it dies there.
I think I hate you guys...you made me learn something before 6:00 am. I am definitely going to try this out and see how it can be applied to our system. Thanks for make a great video.
So is this basically a subharmonic synth effect for ur subs? Like if I used a dbx subharmonic synth or the one in my dbx driverack the effect would be the same?
The X/M32 also has a pitch bender in the effects library, though I'm not sure if it has the same functionality as the Yamaha plugin to work the same. The routing would be similar to how he has it rigged in the CL5. Not familiar with A&H boards, though.
use a dedicated drive rack with a built subharmonic synthezier. or any sub harmonic synthezier. aka epicenter BUT , THE real trick of this is only using on the instruments wanted, and 2 very carefully controlling you high pass and low pass on the signal 2 prevent the subs from unloading, and to prevent this effect picking up higher frequencies
Do you have high pass filters to block signals below 30 Hz being sent to the power amplifiers for the subs. If the subs can'r reproduce anything below 30 Hz surely you're wasting power without a HPF?
so essentially you used a epicenter or what they call a subharmonic synthizer, this is a genius idea, i presume your also using high pass crossovers on subs as well to stop sub 30hz from paly to stop the thrid lower octave feeback, as allowing it pass would unload the sub and cause over excursion
It’s a great trick requiring enough setup time that you’d want it pre-programmed. The full path should reside in an aux to limit its use to percussives and maybe upright bass. It may require several channel presets for an easy recall. I don’t know if any non-Avid SR consoles are capable of multiple channel presets or not. In ProTools where I spend most of my time, very complicated channel presets are a breeze, with unlimited channel count, and they can be added to any existing scene. So convenient to for complex enhancements such as this.
Great trick but it's not so clear how to achieve it. The mic you use in the instance has the only purpose of capturing the bass feedback and pitch it down into the "unreproducible" zone? or it is one of the mic we have to use to amplificate the instrument (that is supposed to feedback) and we have to pass it trough this pitch/low pass routing ? Do all this unwanted infrasub energie that the woofer can't reproduce, put under strain the power amp ? thank you
Great questions! We do use the microphone itself in the main arrays to amplify the general sound of the instrument. But if we can't get enough gain in the low frequency, we sneak in a little bit of that effect. You can think of it like a regular reverb send, except that the return goes only to the subwoofer aux. And as far as the infrasub frequencies, we're using Nexo/Yamaha products which have steep filters for that kind of stuff, so even if I send a bunch of it to the amps, it will not pass through. Perhaps other systems with less protection would suffer, but you could also put a strong high-pass filter on the effect return at 30Hz or whatever.
We do use the microphone itself in the main arrays, it picks up the general sound of the drum or whatever, and then the internal routing through the downpitch effect fed to the subs gives the sound that extra bump.
Descriptiom is so unclear… do you have some step by step article? Because i do not understand what is aux path what is return path and where is the pitch modulator used….
the drive rack runs the whole sound system typically so this would not work because you would end up sending this to the whole system BUT if you had a dedicated drive rack for this purpose and only for this purpose im sure you would be able to pull it off.
This is a genuine question that isn't being said with any tone or hostility or anything.... The SM57 has such a severe low end roll off, why are you using that mic for this trick? Love your channel, man.
Perfect solution to kill all the tonality from a PA system in a chase to get more sub . Try mixing a classical orchestra on this system. Wich instrument to pick for youre "side-chain"?
agreed. phase nightmare. way to over-complicate things for the sake appearing clever. seems to me the sub deployment has some obvious flaws in the first place.
@@weareallbeingwatched4602 OK, so its been a year but blame the YT algorithm.. This works well only for bass instruments whose first harmonic is effectively the same as the fundamental. That way the 1 octave pitch shifted 1st harmonic adds to the unprocessed fundamental. meanwhile the pitch shifted fundamental is below anything that can be reproduced. The second harmonic is not relevant since it is rejected by the low pass filter. Wont work is there is no significant first harmonic, sounds crap if the instrument pitch changes rapidly or notes are short.
2:13 I love the sound of that rattling when you tap that microphone! Awesome! 😃
For the people commenting about the mic directly in front of the sub array:
No, it's not used live. It's only for demonstration. The feedback path that he describes is a parasitic effect of any live sound gig, even without the demo mic.
Having the demo mic there is simply a way to exaggerate the effect to make the point.
This is correct.
Hey if you mic the subs and run that back through the pa it would double the bass!!! ;)
@@powdermnky007 Ehh...sorta, but not in a way that is useful. What you're describing is exactly what we call feedback, which is usually a bad thing, and the entire purpose of this trick is to *avoid* feedback.
The reason it's bad is because it's an endless iterative process. If you take 1x sound from the mic and run it through the electronics, then you get 1x sound from the speaker.
That then combines with the original 1x to put 2x into the mic. That 2x goes through the electronics and comes out the speaker.
That then combines with the original 1x to put 3x into the mic. That 3x goes through the electronics and comes out the speaker.
That then combines with the original 1x to put 4x into the mic. That 4x goes through the electronics and comes out the speaker.
Etc.
If you have the "volume control" any higher than exactly 1:1 (we don't actually call them that because we have tons of them that are subtly different), then it's even worse. 1x in might produce 1.1x out, add the original 1x, then 2.1x in produces 2.31x out, etc.
Pretty soon, you're just playing a square wave at full power. Not good. The trick in this video makes it come out differently from how it went in, so that it still sounds good, but multiple iterations of that difference make it unplayable and so it dies there.
@@powdermnky007 you have an EQ for that ;)
I think I hate you guys...you made me learn something before 6:00 am. I am definitely going to try this out and see how it can be applied to our system. Thanks for make a great video.
So is this basically a subharmonic synth effect for ur subs? Like if I used a dbx subharmonic synth or the one in my dbx driverack the effect would be the same?
what about frequency cut for low? i mean i would like just to cut the 80hz on the sub. then let the 20 to 50 hz do their job . was that fine?
Hello, why pa sub in left side? Is any problem come use sub left & right side cardioid?
how can we do this on a console other than a Yamaha, like Allen and heath, Midas or Behringer
The X/M32 also has a pitch bender in the effects library, though I'm not sure if it has the same functionality as the Yamaha plugin to work the same. The routing would be similar to how he has it rigged in the CL5. Not familiar with A&H boards, though.
use a dedicated drive rack with a built subharmonic synthezier. or any sub harmonic synthezier. aka epicenter BUT , THE real trick of this is only using on the instruments wanted, and 2 very carefully controlling you high pass and low pass on the signal 2 prevent the subs from unloading, and to prevent this effect picking up higher frequencies
This channel is amazing, love your videos
Do you have high pass filters to block signals below 30 Hz being sent to the power amplifiers for the subs. If the subs can'r reproduce anything below 30 Hz surely you're wasting power without a HPF?
Should do to stop you blowing the speakers up - especially in a 6th order bandpass cab.
Never seen this or would have thought. Very interesting!! Very awesome
so essentially you used a epicenter or what they call a subharmonic synthizer, this is a genius idea, i presume your also using high pass crossovers on subs as well to stop sub 30hz from paly to stop the thrid lower octave feeback, as allowing it pass would unload the sub and cause over excursion
Most modern pro subs have HPF built-in to their management unit,either a processor or the amp itself,and limiters too.
Holy cow, and here i thought DP was just for making demon voice noises 😆 🤣
It’s a great trick requiring enough setup time that you’d want it pre-programmed. The full path should reside in an aux to limit its use to percussives and maybe upright bass. It may require several channel presets for an easy recall.
I don’t know if any non-Avid SR consoles are capable of multiple channel presets or not. In ProTools where I spend most of my time, very complicated channel presets are a breeze, with unlimited channel count, and they can be added to any existing scene. So convenient to for complex enhancements such as this.
Do you not run into the issue of the amps going into protect mode ?
Great trick but it's not so clear how to achieve it. The mic you use in the instance has the only purpose of capturing the bass feedback and pitch it down into the "unreproducible" zone? or it is one of the mic we have to use to amplificate the instrument (that is supposed to feedback) and we have to pass it trough this pitch/low pass routing ? Do all this unwanted infrasub energie that the woofer can't reproduce, put under strain the power amp ? thank you
Great questions! We do use the microphone itself in the main arrays to amplify the general sound of the instrument. But if we can't get enough gain in the low frequency, we sneak in a little bit of that effect. You can think of it like a regular reverb send, except that the return goes only to the subwoofer aux. And as far as the infrasub frequencies, we're using Nexo/Yamaha products which have steep filters for that kind of stuff, so even if I send a bunch of it to the amps, it will not pass through. Perhaps other systems with less protection would suffer, but you could also put a strong high-pass filter on the effect return at 30Hz or whatever.
Hi. Can you please explain bass frequency in detail.
This is a very interesting idea.
About drums it's enough to do a pitch shift of about a semitone, to get rid feedback.
interesting
So do you actually use the microphone for this effect during the show? Or is it just routed internally?
We do use the microphone itself in the main arrays, it picks up the general sound of the drum or whatever, and then the internal routing through the downpitch effect fed to the subs gives the sound that extra bump.
Asking for a friend Can I do this on m32 ?
Descriptiom is so unclear… do you have some step by step article? Because i do not understand what is aux path what is return path and where is the pitch modulator used….
INTERESTINg AF!!!! LOVE IT!!! ; )
Wow! That's great. How can I replicate this in a mixer such as one from soundcraft 🤔
RTM?
if you have pitcher... yes
I think all SI series and Vi series from soundcraft have a pitch shift effect, so it’s eaxactly the same setup
Flipping Brilliant.
Im using an analog mixer on the bar that i work and i have a driverack there can i do the pitch thing on the drive rack?
You probably need an outboard reverb unit with pitch shift for doing this.
the drive rack runs the whole sound system typically so this would not work because you would end up sending this to the whole system BUT if you had a dedicated drive rack for this purpose and only for this purpose im sure you would be able to pull it off.
awesome
Can we use in other mixer like SQ7 or 6
If possible than how
I think the Hypabass effect ($50) is the same on the SQ line. Haven't tested it out though.
👍
hagan con subtítulos en español por favor
Hii Devin can we use this technique in dj setup.
This is a genuine question that isn't being said with any tone or hostility or anything.... The SM57 has such a severe low end roll off, why are you using that mic for this trick? Love your channel, man.
❤️❤️❤️❤️👍👍👍🇱🇰
I don't mean to be "that guy", but why not just use a subharminic synth?
Neat method, TH-cam completely and utterly destroys your demonstration, couldnt hear a thing!
use headphones
@@lordclancharlie1325 no
Sounds fine on my main living room stereo system.. The difference is quite obvious
Perfect solution to kill all the tonality from a PA system in a chase to get more sub . Try mixing a classical orchestra on this system. Wich instrument to pick for youre "side-chain"?
agreed. phase nightmare. way to over-complicate things for the sake appearing clever. seems to me the sub deployment has some obvious flaws in the first place.
Add more woofers.....
Oh dear dude, no way am I fixing feedback with a pitch shifter. What the hell.
Weareallbeingwatched are you kidding or serious..?
@@DanMarcelino I'm fully serious m
Weareallbeingwatched ahh.. then I’m afraid you’re missing the benefit and the genius of this technique 😔
@@weareallbeingwatched4602 OK, so its been a year but blame the YT algorithm..
This works well only for bass instruments whose first harmonic is effectively the same as the fundamental. That way the 1 octave pitch shifted 1st harmonic adds to the unprocessed fundamental. meanwhile the pitch shifted fundamental is below anything that can be reproduced. The second harmonic is not relevant since it is rejected by the low pass filter.
Wont work is there is no significant first harmonic, sounds crap if the instrument pitch changes rapidly or notes are short.
Autotune fixes everything...