3:50 "Bend pin towards string until you pass pure and then when the pin unbends it brings it up to pure" This leaves the NSL tension at the tight edge of "ready to go". One hard blow and it probably will go sharp. The better technique for me is to bend it flat, hear it flat, let go, hear it less flat. Now I know NSL tension is at the top. Then massage/bend/tilt/flagpole the pin away from the string. Must work with the tiniest of pressure. Pitch goes sharp, locks into place. Let go. Now unbending of pin lowers NSL tension a tiny bit. Best place for NSL tension is near the top, not at the top. You are the only other person I know who is talking about this stuff. Keep it up. People are struggling with stability.
This and one other piano really had me stumped. I really think I know what you're saying, but as soon as I massage it up (or any direction): PING! I'm not saying I shouldn't try. I'm just saying that after trying healthier methods several times, I'm going to bang the crap out of it to giterdun. I'm not saying that is the right way or the only way at all. I'm just saying that is what I will do when I'm desperate...when I give up. With this piano, using that method, it ended up stable. I've done it this way for several years now and it holds really well. I can't explain why. I gotta find that other video of the REALLY bad piano. It will blow your mind. It made me insane...not that I had far to go. 🤣
As a complete beginner in these stuff I find such videos and the rich discussion in the comments FASCINATING. A big thanks first of all to Maggie but all commentators too, for contributing to the science and craft of piano tuning in such a graspable specific way. It's like having a mini online pianotuner therapy session 😅
So glad! Do you know about my theory playlist? It starts out basic but gets into tuning theory by #17. th-cam.com/play/PL6RYO1N8Y1hHMFSz5ybKU4zO4BflLSxKv.html&si=fGpJ-NRU2hs20n6y
Thank you so much! I am checking these and they are great! A question: I wonder if it is possible to use an ukulele to train my ear hearing and counting beats. I do not have a tuning lever and since uke strings they are single and so easy to tune/detune thought to give it a try. However it seems to be harder than actual piano strings (from recordings or from my not so tuned piano). Is it just my beginner ear or are the beats not so clear in that little cheap 30$ instrument perhaps because of lack of sustain, or some other factor? Any ideas?
@@milton.lemonpie The problem with a uke is that the strings are short and the bridge is not necessarily in an ideal location to keep the harmonics of the strings clear. It will be harder to hear the beats. BUT, it's technically still usable even if very difficult. It might be a good idea to just listen to your piano as is, without tuning it. For example, you can listen to running major thirds that should slow down as you move downward and speed up as you move upward. Listen for the change and note any discrepancies. You can do the same with sixths and tenths. You can also practice checks (or aural gauge tools) as taught in my later tuning theory videos. That might be the best way to start. ;-)
Thank you for sharing this! This is invaluable information. Every little bit helps. When it comes to hammer technique, persona informal explanations are often way easier and more realistic to grasp and use than book explanations
Thank you for this demonstration! Every video I watch teaches me more for which I am grateful. My upright piano has pins which go squirk or pop as those in the video, and I have pretty much had to learn the same techniques. Now I got an idea what to do. I have 45 years experience or more, my tuning was twice regarded as good by a professional; still the tuning is not good after some weeks, seldomly months, especially when we go from summer to autumn. The construction of a piano has so many problems regarding stable tuning, so it is amazing when a tuner can set the string so it keeps in tune. The soundboard alone is influenced by temperature and humidity and affects the tuning. I think it is impossible for a piano to keep in tune for more than a month or two, and I think pianists get used to the bad tuning, and I think it destroys their hearing ability. On the other hand, using so much time on tuning it has me sometimes wonder if I am sane.
Thanks. When the friction on agraffe is high and speaking part of the string is not able to pull down the excessive tension of the nonspeaking part of the string, then you must overpull unison a little bit , then you put your lever in 3-o'clock position, aaaand by weak blows on the schaft of yor lever with the palm of your hand in direction further overpull of unison, while simultaneously striking the note pretty hard, you provoke the speaking part of the string to pull down the excessive tension of nonspeaking part agraffe-pin. When it happens, you uverpulled unison will become pure unison. First you may feel that all you do with that jerking is only overtune the unison further, but go on and keep make small impacts on schaft and after a while the speaking part of the string will respond you and pull down all your overpulled frequency and make for you pure and stable unison.
Thanks so much for doing this video. Yes - just the trouble I'm starting to have on one of my instruments and so frustrating! Time consuming too. And yes - technique varies between piano and piano. Each is different as you say and each one is like meeting a new friend. And one does have to make a friend of the instrument one's tuning!
6:30 I like to separate out bending and twisting like Dan Levitan does. There is a place for what you are doing - pressing not straight down but at an angle. Problem is, it can cause the pin foot to turn and sometimes jump too far.
I already had! Made zero difference. I have had CLP work once, but only once. The cool thing is the one time it worked, it was a completely different piano after that. It was awesome. 🤷♀️
@@PianoTechMaggie that pianos make me crazy. CLP may not work at all. Solution I found is crazy but it works now for 4 years with no problem. WD 40 TEFLON!!!! Applied to agraffes and felt. No dust attraction. It worked and made piano tuning normal. th-cam.com/video/5iIb6TJ6gl8/w-d-xo.html that one is even with jumping tuning pins. Impossible to tune perfect and stable 🤒 if someone knows a solution?
@@cyrilfriendlies6965 Hi Cyril. I understand your frustration. Please avoid WD-40 because it is primarily a solvent, not a lubricant, and it does what we call, "creep". It can creep down the strings, and it is unfortunately heavy enough to affect the tone. It is better to stick with the lighter lubricants that were meant for this purpose. If they don't work, you do the best you can or do a partial rebuild. Teflon is indeed amazing. I THINK there is a liquid teflon available these days. We should both find it! LOL!
@@PianoTechMaggie I didn't used standard WD40 but WD40 PTFE! That was last solution before restraining etc. and that works now for 4-5 years. I do not use it but once and only as the last attempt in case rebuild is out of question. No noticed effect on stability or the tone. (On agraffes it was applied with a very small amount.) usually I use protek or prolube on old-rust strings especially if a pitchrise is needed, but particularly in this case there was no effect at all! I have no ides why 😀
12:25 "not responding well to a slow pull" The way I use slow pull with jumpy agraffes is to come from far away, get the jump, and then the slow pull works well, as the string slides smoothly through the agraffe. Drop it where you want it.
My old upright doesn't have agraffes, but _does_ have awful rendering on some strings in the treble. I'm going to try this out the next time I encounter one of those troublemakers.
I have found these pianos work very well with simple slow pull. Just slow pull the pitch up at 12:00 and drop it. If it goes flat, slow pull pitch up at 9:00-10:00. (Unbending leaves NSL tighter) If pitch goes sharp when you let go or on a hard blow, slow pull up to pitch at 2:00-3:00. (Unbending leaves less NSL tension)
I've had that work for me on some pianos but not others. I wish I could describe it, but I haven't figured it out. All I know is that I can feel rather quickly if that will work or not. 🤷♀️
@@PianoTechMaggie I don't like to describe this situation as poor rendering. It implies something bad. It isn't. It's just different. What it means is that when you turn the pin the pitch doesn't change. This is because of the long NSL and Hooke's Law. Friction also plays a part but friction is more uniform where NSL are different, sometimes vastly in the same piano so we need to use that to help us figure out the best technique. Also - and this is probably the most important - we need feedback. We need to KNOW the pitch is not changing, or when it does. This is impossible with single strings. We can only get good feedback when listening to a unison go in and out, or looking at an ETD. Feeling is good. It just doesn't help students. But hearing the pitch not change when trying to tune a unison - i.e. actually being able to turn the pin with the unison not changing - means slow pull will work. But we must also be able to hear if the clean unison stays when we let go of the hammer. That's the phase 1 and phase 2 I talk about. Very powerful. Once you know if the string is unstable you can retune it so it stays. For example using slow pull at different angles.
@howtotunepianosbymarkceris2922 With the pianos I'm talking about, slow pull definitely won't work. It jumps. I'm not sure we're talking about the same scenario. When I say, "poor rendering", I'm talking about extreme cases that are extremely challenging to tune. And, as far as I'm concerned, something really is wrong. If slow pull worked, it wouldn't be poor rendering. 😉 And of course you can't hear clearly if the pitch is changing or not without a unison...UNLESS it's jumping so much you can actually hear it. That happens! Makes me crazy. 🤪 Still, it's useless without a unison OR an interval you're tuning with, as you pointed out.
If the string is jumping through the agraffe, try “fast” pull. Once the string jumps it moves slowly after that. But you gotta drop the pitch quick. If it’s isn’t right start again.
@howtotunepianosbymarkceris2922 This one keeps jumping no matter what. Here's what is odd: You'd think that a small twist of the pin would have a similar effect as flagpoling as far as iumpiness goes. With any twist, it jumps. It can still jump with flagpoling, but not as much. I assume I'm simply not able to make that tiny of a motion with a twist. IDK.
Maggie, Yes as you know, the "flagpole" is your friend. The pin MUST be left in a slightly "bent" (a.k.a. "flexed") state in order to be stable. Reason obviously is due to 150-240 lbs. of tension pulling on it. The forces must all be equal (relatively speaking) for stability which requires a certain amount of flexing of the pin and final placement of the pin with an equalizing bending force left in it. Those who say "no bending ever" do not KNOW what they are doing. Of course literally BENDING the pin into a permanently deformed shape is a categorical no-no. You are not doing this, but rather simply flexing the pin within the design parameters of the piano. PWG
4:40 Bending down leaves pitch slightly flat. Hard blows cause pitch to rise and now it sounds good. But you need the hard blows with this technique. For no hard blows, bend flat, let go, confirm less flat, bend up to pitch, let go. No hard blows needed. I know you are only using hard blows to confirm stability but listen again. The string is not stable.
Actually, I'm doing both with hard blows: tuning AND stability. I hate it, but for parts of this piano nothing else works. For other parts of this piano, probably most, what you're saying works just fine. Wish it did for about 1/3 that I can't seem to get without hard blows. Makes me crazy. I'm glad I don't have to deal with pianos like this very often! Most of the time, what you're saying works just fine. 🤷♀️ OH! You're talking about the other piano I mentioned? Yeah...that was the only way I could get it stable. Nothing else worked, and I'm not talking a little flat; I'm talking several cents flat. Older Steinway console. Someone FINALLY convinced me to use CBL (I don't want to explain why I was afraid to use it) and it has tumed fine ever since. 🙄🤦♀️🤣 Keep in mind, I'm talking about outliers. These aren't typical pianos. I think they are posessed. 🤣👻
The clicking sound is definitely from the tuning pin jumping. A real pain in the arse for tuners. Steinway tuners are taught strike the keys quite heavily as would a concert pianist in heavy passages to hopefully stop the string from moving.
I have had several people tell me the sound is "definitely" from the pin, the felt, and the agraffe. I can't know for sure where it is coming from, but I believe I can feel when it's coming from the pin. In this case, it SOUNDS like the sound is coming from the agraffe, so I doubt the pin, but I can't say for sure it's not the felt. In any case, this is the only way I can get stability in this particular piano. It's the second hardest one I tune regularly.
When this happens (pinging) I use a dry lock lube on the bearing points, I read years ago some terrible advice along the same lines using that used liquid wrench, which will climb up and down the string and get into the pin. But the 3 in one dry lock lube will also clean some of the corrosion, and I get fewer pingy strings. The 3in1 dries within 90 seconds and doesn’t travel far from where you put it. But that pinging always indicated corrosion on the string to me. So what are your indicators that the tension in the speaking and non speaking lengths is out of balance?
There are lubes now designed specifically for this. They are called, "counter bearing lube". I used that on this piano more than once. As for stability, the only way to be 100% certain is with a test blow, but you can also check that the string is slightly easier to move sharp as opposed to flat. If it is easier to move flat, it's not right. If it's TOO easy to move sharp, it's probably still not right. 😉
So is the jerking while adjusting the pitch (tuning the note) enough to set the pin so the note doesnt go flat? I have a 2 year old Kawai grand. Some notes went flat last time we had a large humidity swing, but I was able to tune them quite successfully. Tuning those notes was quite rewarding, so I'd like to tune the whole piano at some point using the pianometer app. I still plan to get the tech to tune it yearly and give its physical, but id like to tune it in between myself.
When you have swings in humidity and a healthy, crowned soundboard, the piano will go out of tune. No way around that. This video is about a rendering problem which is a separate issue. Talk with your tech about it. They will either give you advice or be horrified. Haha! Have fun!
The binding is not at the agraffe. The binding is the corroded string on the felt behind the agraffe. Spray pro-lube on that felt and the strings will render better.
Hi Carl! This is after I used CBL...twice. There is no corrosion. It may still be the felt and not the agraffe, but nothing works with this piano. 🤷♀️ Any other ideas?
Thank you for this video! I found it at just the right time. The entire 6th octave on a Baldwin grand was doing this the other day and it was driving me nuts. Interestingly, it was just the bottom (closest to me) row of pins on about 10 notes in a row. This video is from a year ago so you might not remember, but I'm curious how much time you spent tuning this piano.
I believe it took me up to 3 hours the first time. I have gotten that down to 2 hours or less now. Even with that hammer technique, it can still jump, but once I get it, it stays. I JUST tuned that piano again this past week. It holds great once I have it where I want it! LOL
@@PianoTechMaggie Ok, well that makes me feel a little better! I'll have to just allow extra time when I know I've got one of those pianos coming up. Unless I'm remembering wrong, I feel like I was hearing 3-5 clicks before the pitch would change on some strings. Which is surprising if the clicking/popping is the string moving across the tension point. Could there be another source of that same clicking sound? I'll pay closer attention next time now that I know what the sound likely is!
@iancrawfordmusic Absolutely! Sometimes it can catch on the agraffe, but that's when the pitch changes with each pop. If it doesn't do that, then it is likely catching on the felt. (If it's that in this video, then I called it wrong.) A lubricant can often help with that, but not always. Another type of click is the pin itself. I have a piano that does that. I should make a video of it! LOL!
Not always, but it is my preferred method on grands if it works. On some pianos, it doesn't seem to work as well as letting the string sound. 🤷♀️ I prefer to not create sounds that can damage my hearing, but I do have earplugs. 😉
6:35 Notice how you are actually bending up and turning the pin and the pitch isn't changing. Hooke's Law again. Bending on a long NSL is not as useful because you have to bend so much to get any change (you can help it change by adding a little twist, which is what you are doing.)
I am doing that, but one can use impact/jerk tuning without flexing the pin. The point of this video isn't slow pull vs impact; it's flexing the pin to overcome excessive friction. Does that make sense?
I'm not going to say publicly except that it wasn't that. ;-) I've experienced this with a few different brands, two in particular, but I'll only share that if you email me: maggie@thebutlerschool.org
Yes, any brand with a wide cloth counterbearing surface will eventually develop this problem to one degree or another. Grotrians definitely...Bechstein...Steinway...Yamaha...etc
I was avoiding saying the brand because it can happen on any piano. Ironically, I've had this happen when there is no felt against the strings, although not near this bad.
3:50 "Bend pin towards string until you pass pure and then when the pin unbends it brings it up to pure"
This leaves the NSL tension at the tight edge of "ready to go". One hard blow and it probably will go sharp.
The better technique for me is to bend it flat, hear it flat, let go, hear it less flat. Now I know NSL tension is at the top.
Then massage/bend/tilt/flagpole the pin away from the string. Must work with the tiniest of pressure.
Pitch goes sharp, locks into place.
Let go. Now unbending of pin lowers NSL tension a tiny bit.
Best place for NSL tension is near the top, not at the top.
You are the only other person I know who is talking about this stuff. Keep it up. People are struggling with stability.
This and one other piano really had me stumped. I really think I know what you're saying, but as soon as I massage it up (or any direction): PING! I'm not saying I shouldn't try. I'm just saying that after trying healthier methods several times, I'm going to bang the crap out of it to giterdun. I'm not saying that is the right way or the only way at all. I'm just saying that is what I will do when I'm desperate...when I give up. With this piano, using that method, it ended up stable. I've done it this way for several years now and it holds really well. I can't explain why. I gotta find that other video of the REALLY bad piano. It will blow your mind. It made me insane...not that I had far to go. 🤣
As a complete beginner in these stuff I find such videos and the rich discussion in the comments FASCINATING. A big thanks first of all to Maggie but all commentators too, for contributing to the science and craft of piano tuning in such a graspable specific way. It's like having a mini online pianotuner therapy session 😅
So glad! Do you know about my theory playlist? It starts out basic but gets into tuning theory by #17.
th-cam.com/play/PL6RYO1N8Y1hHMFSz5ybKU4zO4BflLSxKv.html&si=fGpJ-NRU2hs20n6y
Thank you so much! I am checking these and they are great!
A question: I wonder if it is possible to use an ukulele to train my ear hearing and counting beats. I do not have a tuning lever and since uke strings they are single and so easy to tune/detune thought to give it a try. However it seems to be harder than actual piano strings (from recordings or from my not so tuned piano). Is it just my beginner ear or are the beats not so clear in that little cheap 30$ instrument perhaps because of lack of sustain, or some other factor? Any ideas?
@@milton.lemonpie The problem with a uke is that the strings are short and the bridge is not necessarily in an ideal location to keep the harmonics of the strings clear. It will be harder to hear the beats. BUT, it's technically still usable even if very difficult. It might be a good idea to just listen to your piano as is, without tuning it. For example, you can listen to running major thirds that should slow down as you move downward and speed up as you move upward. Listen for the change and note any discrepancies. You can do the same with sixths and tenths. You can also practice checks (or aural gauge tools) as taught in my later tuning theory videos. That might be the best way to start. ;-)
Thank you for sharing this! This is invaluable information. Every little bit helps. When it comes to hammer technique, persona informal explanations are often way easier and more realistic to grasp and use than book explanations
Thank you for this demonstration! Every video I watch teaches me more for which I am grateful.
My upright piano has pins which go squirk or pop as those in the video, and I have pretty much had to learn the same techniques. Now I got an idea what to do.
I have 45 years experience or more, my tuning was twice regarded as good by a professional; still the tuning is not good after some weeks, seldomly months, especially when we go from summer to autumn.
The construction of a piano has so many problems regarding stable tuning, so it is amazing when a tuner can set the string so it keeps in tune. The soundboard alone is influenced by temperature and humidity and affects the tuning.
I think it is impossible for a piano to keep in tune for more than a month or two, and I think pianists get used to the bad tuning, and I think it destroys their hearing ability. On the other hand, using so much time on tuning it has me sometimes wonder if I am sane.
Thanks. When the friction on agraffe is high and speaking part of the string is not able to pull down the excessive tension of the nonspeaking part of the string, then you must overpull unison a little bit , then you put your lever in 3-o'clock position, aaaand by weak blows on the schaft of yor lever with the palm of your hand in direction further overpull of unison, while simultaneously striking the note pretty hard, you provoke the speaking part of the string to pull down the excessive tension of nonspeaking part agraffe-pin. When it happens, you uverpulled unison will become pure unison. First you may feel that all you do with that jerking is only overtune the unison further, but go on and keep make small impacts on schaft and after a while the speaking part of the string will respond you and pull down all your overpulled frequency and make for you pure and stable unison.
Yes! Same effect, slightly different method. ;-)
Thanks so much for doing this video. Yes - just the trouble I'm starting to have on one of my instruments and so frustrating! Time consuming too. And yes - technique varies between piano and piano. Each is different as you say and each one is like meeting a new friend. And one does have to make a friend of the instrument one's tuning!
YES! I've gotten to where I can tune these faster, but still not as fast as pianos with a healthy amount of friction.
6:30 I like to separate out bending and twisting like Dan Levitan does. There is a place for what you are doing - pressing not straight down but at an angle. Problem is, it can cause the pin foot to turn and sometimes jump too far.
Agree about new people needing this information!
You can add some CLP to the plate felt at the string contact to help the string render. This works on some older Yamahas.
I already had! Made zero difference. I have had CLP work once, but only once. The cool thing is the one time it worked, it was a completely different piano after that. It was awesome. 🤷♀️
@@PianoTechMaggie that pianos make me crazy. CLP may not work at all. Solution I found is crazy but it works now for 4 years with no problem. WD 40 TEFLON!!!!
Applied to agraffes and felt. No dust attraction. It worked and made piano tuning normal.
th-cam.com/video/5iIb6TJ6gl8/w-d-xo.html that one is even with jumping tuning pins. Impossible to tune perfect and stable 🤒 if someone knows a solution?
@@cyrilfriendlies6965 Hi Cyril. I understand your frustration. Please avoid WD-40 because it is primarily a solvent, not a lubricant, and it does what we call, "creep". It can creep down the strings, and it is unfortunately heavy enough to affect the tone. It is better to stick with the lighter lubricants that were meant for this purpose. If they don't work, you do the best you can or do a partial rebuild. Teflon is indeed amazing. I THINK there is a liquid teflon available these days. We should both find it! LOL!
@@PianoTechMaggie I didn't used standard WD40 but WD40 PTFE! That was last solution before restraining etc. and that works now for 4-5 years. I do not use it but once and only as the last attempt in case rebuild is out of question. No noticed effect on stability or the tone. (On agraffes it was applied with a very small amount.) usually I use protek or prolube on old-rust strings especially if a pitchrise is needed, but particularly in this case there was no effect at all! I have no ides why 😀
@@PianoTechMaggie btw I found it easier to tune that pianos and even jumping pins with Levitan Lever.
12:25 "not responding well to a slow pull" The way I use slow pull with jumpy agraffes is to come from far away, get the jump, and then the slow pull works well, as the string slides smoothly through the agraffe. Drop it where you want it.
My old upright doesn't have agraffes, but _does_ have awful rendering on some strings in the treble. I'm going to try this out the next time I encounter one of those troublemakers.
Let me know how it goes!
I have found these pianos work very well with simple slow pull. Just slow pull the pitch up at 12:00 and drop it. If it goes flat, slow pull pitch up at 9:00-10:00. (Unbending leaves NSL tighter) If pitch goes sharp when you let go or on a hard blow, slow pull up to pitch at 2:00-3:00. (Unbending leaves less NSL tension)
I've had that work for me on some pianos but not others. I wish I could describe it, but I haven't figured it out. All I know is that I can feel rather quickly if that will work or not. 🤷♀️
@@PianoTechMaggie I don't like to describe this situation as poor rendering. It implies something bad. It isn't. It's just different. What it means is that when you turn the pin the pitch doesn't change. This is because of the long NSL and Hooke's Law. Friction also plays a part but friction is more uniform where NSL are different, sometimes vastly in the same piano so we need to use that to help us figure out the best technique.
Also - and this is probably the most important - we need feedback. We need to KNOW the pitch is not changing, or when it does. This is impossible with single strings. We can only get good feedback when listening to a unison go in and out, or looking at an ETD.
Feeling is good. It just doesn't help students. But hearing the pitch not change when trying to tune a unison - i.e. actually being able to turn the pin with the unison not changing - means slow pull will work. But we must also be able to hear if the clean unison stays when we let go of the hammer. That's the phase 1 and phase 2 I talk about. Very powerful. Once you know if the string is unstable you can retune it so it stays. For example using slow pull at different angles.
@howtotunepianosbymarkceris2922 With the pianos I'm talking about, slow pull definitely won't work. It jumps. I'm not sure we're talking about the same scenario. When I say, "poor rendering", I'm talking about extreme cases that are extremely challenging to tune. And, as far as I'm concerned, something really is wrong. If slow pull worked, it wouldn't be poor rendering. 😉 And of course you can't hear clearly if the pitch is changing or not without a unison...UNLESS it's jumping so much you can actually hear it. That happens! Makes me crazy. 🤪 Still, it's useless without a unison OR an interval you're tuning with, as you pointed out.
If the string is jumping through the agraffe, try “fast” pull. Once the string jumps it moves slowly after that. But you gotta drop the pitch quick. If it’s isn’t right start again.
@howtotunepianosbymarkceris2922 This one keeps jumping no matter what. Here's what is odd: You'd think that a small twist of the pin would have a similar effect as flagpoling as far as iumpiness goes. With any twist, it jumps. It can still jump with flagpoling, but not as much. I assume I'm simply not able to make that tiny of a motion with a twist. IDK.
With that type of piano, it could take all day to tune it
It can definitely take longer. I unfortunately have gotten enough practice to get it done in 90 minutes now. lol
Maggie,
Yes as you know, the "flagpole" is your friend. The pin MUST be left in a slightly "bent" (a.k.a. "flexed") state in order to be stable. Reason obviously is due to 150-240 lbs. of tension pulling on it. The forces must all be equal (relatively speaking) for stability which requires a certain amount of flexing of the pin and final placement of the pin with an equalizing bending force left in it.
Those who say "no bending ever" do not KNOW what they are doing. Of course literally BENDING the pin into a permanently deformed shape is a categorical no-no. You are not doing this, but rather simply flexing the pin within the design parameters of the piano.
PWG
4:40 Bending down leaves pitch slightly flat. Hard blows cause pitch to rise and now it sounds good. But you need the hard blows with this technique.
For no hard blows, bend flat, let go, confirm less flat, bend up to pitch, let go. No hard blows needed.
I know you are only using hard blows to confirm stability but listen again. The string is not stable.
Actually, I'm doing both with hard blows: tuning AND stability. I hate it, but for parts of this piano nothing else works. For other parts of this piano, probably most, what you're saying works just fine. Wish it did for about 1/3 that I can't seem to get without hard blows. Makes me crazy. I'm glad I don't have to deal with pianos like this very often! Most of the time, what you're saying works just fine. 🤷♀️
OH! You're talking about the other piano I mentioned? Yeah...that was the only way I could get it stable. Nothing else worked, and I'm not talking a little flat; I'm talking several cents flat. Older Steinway console. Someone FINALLY convinced me to use CBL (I don't want to explain why I was afraid to use it) and it has tumed fine ever since. 🙄🤦♀️🤣
Keep in mind, I'm talking about outliers. These aren't typical pianos. I think they are posessed. 🤣👻
The clicking sound is definitely from the tuning pin jumping. A real pain in the arse for tuners.
Steinway tuners are taught strike the keys quite heavily as would a concert pianist in heavy passages to hopefully stop the string from moving.
I have had several people tell me the sound is "definitely" from the pin, the felt, and the agraffe. I can't know for sure where it is coming from, but I believe I can feel when it's coming from the pin. In this case, it SOUNDS like the sound is coming from the agraffe, so I doubt the pin, but I can't say for sure it's not the felt. In any case, this is the only way I can get stability in this particular piano. It's the second hardest one I tune regularly.
When this happens (pinging) I use a dry lock lube on the bearing points, I read years ago some terrible advice along the same lines using that used liquid wrench, which will climb up and down the string and get into the pin. But the 3 in one dry lock lube will also clean some of the corrosion, and I get fewer pingy strings. The 3in1 dries within 90 seconds and doesn’t travel far from where you put it. But that pinging always indicated corrosion on the string to me. So what are your indicators that the tension in the speaking and non speaking lengths is out of balance?
There are lubes now designed specifically for this. They are called, "counter bearing lube". I used that on this piano more than once.
As for stability, the only way to be 100% certain is with a test blow, but you can also check that the string is slightly easier to move sharp as opposed to flat. If it is easier to move flat, it's not right. If it's TOO easy to move sharp, it's probably still not right. 😉
So is the jerking while adjusting the pitch (tuning the note) enough to set the pin so the note doesnt go flat? I have a 2 year old Kawai grand. Some notes went flat last time we had a large humidity swing, but I was able to tune them quite successfully. Tuning those notes was quite rewarding, so I'd like to tune the whole piano at some point using the pianometer app. I still plan to get the tech to tune it yearly and give its physical, but id like to tune it in between myself.
When you have swings in humidity and a healthy, crowned soundboard, the piano will go out of tune. No way around that. This video is about a rendering problem which is a separate issue. Talk with your tech about it. They will either give you advice or be horrified. Haha! Have fun!
The binding is not at the agraffe. The binding is the corroded string on the felt behind the agraffe. Spray pro-lube on that felt and the strings will render better.
Hi Carl! This is after I used CBL...twice. There is no corrosion. It may still be the felt and not the agraffe, but nothing works with this piano. 🤷♀️ Any other ideas?
Change the pin, or the string or both. Not enough time to deal with that on one string. I've learned a lot from you thanks. Woohoo@PianoTechMaggie
Subscribed from Greenland!
So about the hammer technique it’s not just about turning the pin like a screw? Right?
Correct! 😉
Thank you for this video! I found it at just the right time. The entire 6th octave on a Baldwin grand was doing this the other day and it was driving me nuts. Interestingly, it was just the bottom (closest to me) row of pins on about 10 notes in a row.
This video is from a year ago so you might not remember, but I'm curious how much time you spent tuning this piano.
I believe it took me up to 3 hours the first time. I have gotten that down to 2 hours or less now. Even with that hammer technique, it can still jump, but once I get it, it stays. I JUST tuned that piano again this past week. It holds great once I have it where I want it! LOL
@@PianoTechMaggie Ok, well that makes me feel a little better! I'll have to just allow extra time when I know I've got one of those pianos coming up. Unless I'm remembering wrong, I feel like I was hearing 3-5 clicks before the pitch would change on some strings. Which is surprising if the clicking/popping is the string moving across the tension point. Could there be another source of that same clicking sound? I'll pay closer attention next time now that I know what the sound likely is!
@iancrawfordmusic Absolutely! Sometimes it can catch on the agraffe, but that's when the pitch changes with each pop. If it doesn't do that, then it is likely catching on the felt. (If it's that in this video, then I called it wrong.) A lubricant can often help with that, but not always. Another type of click is the pin itself. I have a piano that does that. I should make a video of it! LOL!
@@PianoTechMaggie We'll take all the videos we can get! :) Thank you for the response.
This is super helpful. Do you always do test blows while muting the string with your finger like that?
Not always, but it is my preferred method on grands if it works. On some pianos, it doesn't seem to work as well as letting the string sound. 🤷♀️ I prefer to not create sounds that can damage my hearing, but I do have earplugs. 😉
6:35 Notice how you are actually bending up and turning the pin and the pitch isn't changing. Hooke's Law again. Bending on a long NSL is not as useful because you have to bend so much to get any change (you can help it change by adding a little twist, which is what you are doing.)
6:20 Notice how the pitch is not responsive to your hard bending. Also, notice how long that NSL is! That's Hooke's Law at work.
What mic are you using? I appreciate the good sound quality of this recording!
My phone mic! LOL! Phones make great videos these days! 😁
What kind of phone do you have because it looked like there was a mic stand in the piano.
@@saltlakepianoservice Oh, yes. That belonged to the church's sound system. It was off.
Tuners call it impact or jerk tuning
I am doing that, but one can use impact/jerk tuning without flexing the pin. The point of this video isn't slow pull vs impact; it's flexing the pin to overcome excessive friction. Does that make sense?
Hi! what brand of piano? had the same problem with a grotrian
I'm not going to say publicly except that it wasn't that. ;-) I've experienced this with a few different brands, two in particular, but I'll only share that if you email me: maggie@thebutlerschool.org
Yes, any brand with a wide cloth counterbearing surface will eventually develop this problem to one degree or another. Grotrians definitely...Bechstein...Steinway...Yamaha...etc
I was avoiding saying the brand because it can happen on any piano. Ironically, I've had this happen when there is no felt against the strings, although not near this bad.
One of those awful pianos with too much of an angle between the pin and agraffe.
Seems so, but honestly, I've had this happen when that wasn't the case. Makes me crazy. LOL