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I'm just demonstrating stuff on a piano that I used for teaching, so I doubt it's in tune. LOL!

@@PianoTechMaggie Haha! I'm sure it's all exactly as it should be - but ET isn't in tune which is why I refuse to do it. And I don't know how to achieve what I want to achieve by ear, but which works.

Haha! What are ghost notes when playing? Harmonics?

@niktaylor9149 Unfortunately, there is no single answer. Some of the things affecting this are: hammer-string mating, grooves in the hammer, hammer hardness, string lenth differences, string thinkness irregularity, too much or too little friction in the action system, and even regulation. If all these things aren't quite right, odd things can happen, and diagnosing them can be difficult.

@@PianoTechMaggie Thank you for your answer. I´ll just have to put plugs in my ears. :-(

@unequally-tempered Hi! Thank you for the compliment! 😊 You are so right about there being no single method for all situations. While there are some general "truths," there are so many subtleties to our craft that everyone must indeed find their own way in all the grey areas. I learned a lot about lever technique from Dan Levitan. I think he would agree with you. His main thing is that it's impossible to not flex the pin at all, so you may as well use it to your advantage. And yes, we don't need to get carried away which is very easy to do. No wonder you don't care for the 12 o'clock method! That was terribly awkward! You need to move your tuning devices to the other side and sit at a 90⁰ angle to the piano to put you as square to the lever as possible. I found this video of me tuning a bit which shows you how I do it. The lever is either at 12, or as close to 12 as the pin fitting will allow without going past. I face toward the hinged side of the piano. I'm dealing with a temporary injury in this video, so please disregard the braces. If you ever feel like trying again, do try this way & let me know if it's any better for you. th-cam.com/video/UL3CqMc4K1g/w-d-xo.htmlsi=vz0uDCPgOf8cbzmC

Oh yes! Of course I wouldn’t use the ETD in that position interfering with the 12 o’clock position like that normally but doing a video single handed so that the viewer can see the ETD display as well as what one is doing isn’t always easy and especially when one is on a job rather than doing an exemplary instruction video. Nevertheless I was able to feel there that the 12 position wasn’t the solution on that instrument!

@unequally-tempered Oohh! I see. I also now understand you were talking about that specific instrument. Sorry for the misunderstanding! You did say that. 🙄🤦‍♀️🙃

Many of the old-school tuners who were successful were "naturals" & didn't actually understand everything they were doing. I personally know several. He may or may not have taught you everything you need to know. For those who aren't naturals (like me), lots and LOTS of practice is what gets you that kind of speed, but only after you really understand what you are doing. 😉

3 jiffy leads!

It's sometimes easier to hear them in recordings than in real life, so I don't know what to tell you. 🤷‍♀️

Ah, no. Sorry about that. These "terms" are known in the tuning world and mean specific things. "Pin tightness" refers to the actual tightness (and friction) between the tuning pin and the wooden hole holding it. "Friction" refers to the bearing points the string has to cross after it leaves the pin. Does that make sense? Most tuners know what we mean by friction, so we drop the rest of the words in the phrase. Tuning pin tightness is more obvious. "Friction on bearing points after the string leaves the pin" just becomes, "friction". It's similar to why we don't call perfect fifth & perfect fourths perfect. Since we never tune any other type of fifth or fourth, we just drop the extra word.

@@PianoTechMaggie OK, now that all makes much more sense.

@@johnpearcey I'm glad! Sorry for the lack of definitions. It's a known idiom in my world. 😉

I need to make several videos about midrange AND moving into the bass. I'm so busy it won't happen until Spring, but in this video I'm checking my bass with various intervals. You might find something interesting there. Thanks for your interest! th-cam.com/video/i_OI2-sE3b8/w-d-xo.html

I found one! I forgot I had made this one: th-cam.com/video/Q_Ptg6LAO2Q/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FsSTgfLOmvps2_Aa

@@sebthi7890 🤣

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@@mellophs So glad it's helpful! 😊

Wow, thanks to YOU, and your phenomenal teaching, I actually guessed that correctly! Then, all the description in this video of *why* afterward was just perfection! 💥💥. I learned even more. 🎉

@lhernandezpiano 🤣 What am I tapping? The hammer rest rail support! The whole thing shifted to the left so the support rod came in contact with the hammer butt. I moved it back to the right. 😉

@@PianoTechMaggie 🧡

Yes! This link should work, and I'll check that one soon. Sorry about that! If you'd like a prize for catching an error, email me at maggie@timandmaggie.net or maggie@thebutlerschool.org . 😉 timandmaggie.net/piano-tech-education

🤣😂🤣

@nanoawesome3802 Thanks so much! I don't expect to get many views because my audience is relatively small. I simply want to put out information I wish I had had 20 years ago. I do appreciate people letting me know when they value them, though, so thank you! 😊

@FlyWithNoam Obviously so, but I have been told they should be equal by many. My hubby did the math without inharmonicity and they came out equal to the tenth decimal point, then deviated after that. That's pretty darn close! Of course, that's without inharmonicity or inharmonicity shifts. 😉 Glad you already know this, but I'm putting it out there for those who were taught what I was taught. I have one teacher friend who I trust a lot who says they should be pretty equal, but not necessarily the lower m3 & upper M3. I've been thinking about making an addendum about that. I won't have time to work out the details for quite a while. 🫤

@@PianoTechMaggieit’s a coincidence the outside 6 is somewhat equal to inside 3rd. Nothing mathematical. Just coincidence :)nothing fundamental. The old Steinway method of using 4th and 5ths is deemed very imprecise. But the fact is that it yields to and extremely musical temperament. I suggest you try it for fun?

@@DavidBoycePiano Haha! I don't know, but I do know you are right about voicing! A voicing issue can cause two strings to become inharmonically mismatched, making a clean unison impossible. Thanks for bringing that up!!!

@pianoscope6345 Hi Frank! Thanks for the correction about how long PianoScope listens. I was making a generalization and had no idea how long ETDs listen. This info is helpful! I wasn't referring specifically to PianoScope, just so you know. There is at least one other that can do this. I really appreciate this part of what you said: "The main reason for using the freeze function is not to focus on the attack because is some magical part of a note. It is to achieve greater CONSISTENCY...". People have told me the attack is a magical part of the note, so I appreciate you dispelling that. This helps me to understand. Here's the part I don't understand: if hitting the note at different volume levels gives you different pitches, how can you tune at that moving target? Why not freeze the same part of the sustain? What's the difference between the attack and the sustain if you measure the same section of it, other than that the sustain might be more consistent in pitch? You addressed that when you wrote, "version 3 of pianoscope, you will even be able to use the freeze function to consistently tune to a later part of a note." This makes so much more sense to me! I am more likely to take the time to try that. I'll let you know if I do. I promised Nate I'd record a master tuning (or 2) & send them to you. Not sure when I'll be able to do that, but I'll remember when I get a chance again. I was asked too late at the convention to catch one. Thanks for commenting! I hope you can explain more about my questions, above. 🙂

@@PianoTechMaggie Sure, different striking strengths can lead to different pitches. That's why I recommend to consistently tune (and measure inharmonicity) in mezzoforte which represents an average loudness. From my experience, the variance of pitch with slightly varying striking strengths is not too pronounced, so you don't have to be perfect in repeating the same strength. But playing forte or fortissimo does not only alter the pitch in the first 400ms, it can even affect the pitch at later times. So to become consistent again, you will have to wait long into the note. But with 230 strings, even small waiting times add up so that in total this approach can slow you down. So why repeatedly wait for later phases when it is not necessary?

@pianoscope6345 Later time?!? Really?!? Wow. How long? Since I'm still working on aural tuning, I'm not as concerned with speeding up my time. If someone cares about that, then I get it. For me, tuning unisons by ear is still faster. Can it really be faster with a machine? I suppose practice makes perfect. I'm quite sure I'd be faster with the machine in the high treble, but I doubt for the rest of the piano unless I practiced it. Another question: if we're talking tiny amounts of difference with attack volumes, is it not also a tiny amount of difference with consistency? Understand I think about this at least 50% from an aural tuning perspective.

@@PianoTechMaggie Good question. When I tune without the freeze function, I personally find it easier to be consistent in attack strength than in the time on which I focus. If I am very disciplined and focused, I can be consistent with the time phase. But if I let it flow, my variance in time phase is pretty strong, sometimes I tune to the beginning, sometimes to a much later part. I think, if a machine can do this for me, why bother? Naturally, you can achieve great tunings by just using your ears. People have been doing this for ages. I don't claim that you HAVE to use the freeze function. I see it as a tool that can help you be more consistent.

@pianoscope6345 Yes! I understand. Most of this makes much more sense to me now. I really appreciate the explanations. For me, I'm looking for consistency with beat rate progressions, etc. It's amazing at how we can think about the same things differently. I'll play around with the freeze frame function when I have time. Like Rick Butler says: "An ETD in the hands of an an aural tuner is a powerful tool. Hopefully I can find a way to blend the two. Right now, I've only been satisfied with hybrid tunings with a different app, not to be named here, but because I don't have to measure anything first. I can just start tuning and let it run in the background. 😉 Thanks again for all the explanations! 🙂

@@Pitchtastic Good points!

@@ElikemTheTuner Ok!

@@christianlesniak I hadn't thought about the type of people who are advocating tuning on the attack! I think you are right! I'll start paying more attention to that, but the people pushing this the most to me aren't musicians, and one is an engineer. Ha! Thanks for that thought!

@pianotorious47 I did! That's one of the things that got me thinking more about it. I like what you said: "Listener pickiness is directly proportional to note length." That makes sense to me. Someone wrote me privately to suggest tuning on the attack was more appropriate for a piano concerto because the piano will be played so hard and loud that the constant forte playing is close to the attack. That's the first time something like this has made sense to me, but I can't imagine it would matter THAT much. I may never know. lol

@@PianoTechMaggie I suppose that's reasonable... But really if the piano is being played hard and loud, I kinda don't think these 0.1-0.3c tweaks to unisons are gonna stay put that long anyway, right?

I'm not sure what you mean by ms, but attack tuning in general doesn't make much sense to me. If you tune the attack and there is a drop in pitch during the sustain, I wonder if it is more prominent of the attack is tuned flat. But...yes...very annoying.

@@PianoTechMaggie ms = millisecond, I believe.

you are advocating for unclean unisions??

It didn't occur to me to think about jazz in unequal temperaments! I kinda like the idea! 😀

@@AlexLifeson1985 Not unclean: slightly out enough to cause a phasing effect. It's not quite the same as being "out of tune". I prefer really clean unisons, but that's because I mostly tune pianos that have to last 6-12 months. I want those unisons as pure as possible because they will be out of tune soon enough. Many concert technicians purposefully detune (by a gnat's fart) unisons so that they have more character and sustain. It's a legitimate practice. Some concert artists tune unisons to intervals, meaning they will tune each note of a unison to the same slow and fast beating intervals, THEN they follow up and make sure it still works as a unison. That way, each string works within the context of the temperament. The unison is still relatively clean, but it is more functional when it comes to expression and sustain.

It basically replaced the striking. I know too many older techs who have lost their hearing. I can't use ear plugs, so I've learned to tune quietly with this method. There will be plenty of older techs who will tell you I shouldn't be doing this, and that's ok. Most of them flex without realizing it, OR they strike the keys hard. All I can tell you is that both approaches work. 🤷‍♀️