It's time for another special What Broke the Fans?. This time out, I'm taking a look at the material and casting processes and how we came to arrive at where we are today. ~Macca
@@Senbei01 The prices stayed the same, they just did their usual annual price increases at the exact same time so it looked like they went up. Was a really bad PR move.
Dude they didnt even work in england... Ive had rangers with 90 degree bends on their guns, and spirit seers who's staff's were totally broken in half on opening.
Back in 2013, I tink, I heard a story about a finecast horseman melting and falling forward, collapsing under it's own weight. Also, a squad of elven spearmen had their spears bend in australian heat so much, it was impossible to salvage. They were sicklemen from then on.
fucking hell, I can get a group a fucking group of knights without thinking about inflation. I hope it was limited becouse after the prints were done they hsoved the mold up the ass of the guy who had this idea.
Well, to nitpick, properly cured resin isn't toxic _in itself,_ but needs precautions when sanding it because it makes dust of such small particle size that it can end up in your lungs if inhaled.
Yeah, Finecast was/is terrible. My local GW always recommended that people open their Finecast products in store incase a replacement was required (Aspect Warriors were particularly bad). Finecast put me off buying a lot of models that I otherwise would have loved to own.
When finecast very first came out, GW told the staff at my local store that it wasn't normal resin, and that it was a plastic-resin hybrid and non-toxic. (They only allowed forge world models in the store after they were built, no filing/sawing resin allowed, for good reason) They then allowed people to build them instore and there was kids (well young teenagers, like 12, 13, 14 year olds) and some adults who were building the models instore, filing and scraping away at mould lines and fitting parts without dust masks) They backpedaled on this FAST and had to tell people not to do that. Was a lawsuit waiting to happen. I never got any finecast as the sculpts were shit, and this could of been a major problem but no one actually bought any significant amounts of finecast while i was a younger gamer, people avoided it like the plauge and i don't think i saw a guy buy one and build it instore without having to return it, one guy returned a inquisitor 3 times because of how bad the cast was and then the shop had none left so had to refund him.
My finecast Cryptek broke that many times in the arms, I got so frustrated with it and cut up some regular plastic arms to use instead. And the amount of times I had to fix Imotekh's staff, IN THE SAME FUCKING SPOT. At least my CSM characters haven't broken yet, not that I've ever used Abaddon.....
Quick note, the video actually ends at 26:49 but TH-cam's editing program hasn't applied this to the video, I'm working on re-editing it down as it's just the background track extending the run time. ~Macca
Cool video mate, some great Finecast nasties for sure. The temperature thing is a very good point, FC might be okay in ambient UK temperatures but clearly not in hot climates. One thing on the early metal for Games Workshop models, in the mid to late eighties all GW figures were cast in a white metal alloy (pewter) which was then switched to a lead-free version to allow them to continue to sell the models to children due to changes in UK law. That is why more recent GW metal figures are so tough and difficult to clean up compared to those cast in the higher lead content pewter. Not all manufacturers use lead free pewters today, for example Warlord Games's white metal carries some lead although some of their licensed figures e.g. Doctor Who are cast lead-free.
I think the worst aspect of this whole debacle is that although GW stood by it's principle of excellent customer service, whenever I wasn't happy they were prepared to give me an exchange or a refund with a receipt, but at no point were they prepared to accept how ridiculously and horribly flawed their product was (and still is for the few models still produced with it) it always angered me how staff were so wrapped up in doublethink that they just became tedious and infuriating to talk to. It made me feel ignored and easily dismissed even though the issue was so blatantly obvious to see.
Future Shop had a similar model - you could return just about anything, even stuff that was opened... and replace it with more shit. Future Shop isn't a thing anymore. Go figure.
I felt like I had nothing but nightmares when it came to fine cast, my final straw was an ironwarriors tech priest whose mechandrites were an absolute mess and all the detail was fucked, I got my refund in the end but never bought any more finecast. Throughout the whole finecast experience, one purchase after another I just longed for white metal, I enjoyed painting with it
the first finecast i got was boss snickrot and i had no issue with him no warped bits no mold slip no bubbles and not mich gate and flash cleanup he fit together perfectly no gap filler needed
one last thing, i think thats why games workshop doesn't go back , too, i dont think they can, i think they bid a molding job in china, mold out 500k of these things, and thats that, what they have is what they sell because they are greedy and cheap, they dont want to go back and rebid for another mold company to mold new parts when they have half a million sprues of old parts, based on the dates on the parts, these parts sit around someplace, sometimes decades before ever being sold, so thats why i think they dont try and go back and fix anything, it would explain why they seem to ignore the consumer base as well, they dont want to say "well, actually we molded 10 years worth of space marines in 2008 and we havnt molded any more space marines during that time, but we increased the price for no reason, because why not, you'll buy it anyways", i think they plan it all out, obviously they have managed to survive when nearly all other board game companies went under, i believe it's because they abuse the consumers and most people dont know about it, somehow.
GW and most went to non lead metal After they won a lawsuit versus New York State in 1990 ...It was cheaper to change over to a non lead pewter than to go to court in a different state ( possibly all 50) and win .
I actually gave up and sold my eldar army because of all the aspect warriors being outright unusable in finecast format. I had 2-3 packs of swooping hawks that were intended to stand on tiptoe in this material, and scorpions with wonky chainswords plagued my nightmares
To be honest, while Finecast is certainly not my favourite material to work with, I have never really experienced all the horrorstories I've heard about Finecast, the only problem I've had is the broken horn of an Archon. Maybe just luck ;)
Great video. The only problem with it is the reference to videogames about glich and patches, especially about recent years. My 3 exeriences with Finecast were all bad and ended with refounds.
I was fairly active in the hobby when lead was phased out of white metal. This was in response to UK legislation at the time (the actual lead content was already low, transfer to brush would have not really resulted in any danger esp considering many homes in Europe still have lead pipes in places). Introduction of LFP came with a cost boost, because supposedly the metal was more expensive. However that was cost per weight, as LFP was lighter you got more, so actually the cost per mini was about the same.
I still don't think the material is the main issue here. Even with low quality resin you should still be able to create a good miniature, yes it might be a bit more brittle or something but it shouldn't be like what Finecast is. The main issue really seems to be the molding process you mentioned.
Problem was that they changed the material without revisiting the molds or the process. Anyone with half a degree in material physics could tell you that it's a recipe for disaster.
a reduction of 1/7th cost of materials would never equal a cost of sale at to 1/7th, because of the total cost of production, only a small fraction is spent on raw materials. the rest is distribution, packaging, staff costs, building rentals, equipment upkeep etc
That is correct, and I should have been more clear. By the same token, going to white metal from lead meant they actually paid less than you think due to the weight reduction. Good comment anyway, and a point I didn't make clear, realistically a material cost decrease would likely be a 30-50% reduction, not an 86% reduction.
not nessisarily, for example machining titatinium and polishing it is a nightmare, the raw material is much cheaper than high quality steel but the machining process is far more costly. at least in my business material cost has virtually no end result on the cpst of the product at all
I remember getting excited about Finecast and getting Lelith Hexperax (IMHO great choice for resin mini if done correctly) from initial batch... and then replacing it after checking her for faults in home.... and replacing it after checking for faults with store owner... and basically repeating it till we run out of models. EVERY SINGLE MODEL was missing huge chunk of resin, usually in same place (along with many small details, like spikes etc). How's that for quality control? Selling whole botched batch for premium? 11:50 oh yeah, EXACTLY this shit. I actually had better success with casting miniatures myself (sue me) than Games Workshop. Or Forgeworld, for that matter.
I was lucky, one of my first sets were the old raptors. Now not knowing how to clean the release agent the painting was a chore... However the models were actually bubble free some how! Mind you a friend playing eldar got bonned. ALL his aspect warrors were wrecked...
they changed it because of pending regulations would make it almost impossible to do business, especially in the case of selling to children. No one is gonna get lead poisoning from a lead figure , you will get more lead in a single fish than from a lifetime miniature painting unless you actually tried to ingest the lead and that would be a mental health issue.
I really have to ask what GW was thinking with finecast. to this date I only have 2 finecast miniatures and the both have bendy parts. I also refuse to use them during summer as the bend. On the bright side at least they now have (unintended) unique poses. I would really like to get more flayed ones for my army but I will not buy the finecast ones, and the metal ones seem to come up on ebay few and far between or at ridiculously inflated prices.
my first (would be last, but there's the alpha legion...) experience with finecast was severina raine from the bl celebration in february. it had bubbles in the base, some warping, and the gun was quite mismatched. the worst part was, i went out on the deck of my house to use a heatgun on her, and her sword and sheath fell through the freakin floor. therefore, i was forced to go under the nasty ass deck and find her sheath (that fell first, and while putting that back on the table, i knocked the sword arm onto the ground. then, while trying to pick it up, i knocked it through the floor). i will admit it was in large part my fault, but if there was no warping on the model, i wouldn't have had to do that. but alpha legion is so hot...
The thing that got me with the whole failcast debacle was , you pay a premium price for our premium product ( which was only fit for the bin ) , and then you have to pay a premium price for our premium filler for our premium miniatures . Errr fuck no . Have you seen the furore around the Old witch 2 model from Privateer Press ? Lol talk about cheap skate model companies lol
I have two finecast models; a Lord Commissar and Commander Farsight. The Commissar was not too difficult to clean up and put together, since he was about 4 pieces, but Farsight was a disaster. Comparing them to other resin models, such as those from Victoria Miniatures, they make finecast look like a scam. When I think about it, comparing any of GWs models to those of Bandai, I think GW is running a scam.
This reminds me of a fair few years ago, when my dad bought me my first finecast model: (I, )Cato Sicarius. The mold itself wasn't that bad, and I only needed to file it down a little. However, also living in Australia, a off-coast area no less, I wasn't even able to put him together properly. I struggled for days trying to get his flag to stay on his back, but because of the length, it would simple fall off. Same for his sword arm, but that I could eventually get to stay on... until it fell off during a game with one of my friends. I couldn't even paint it either, the paint would sort of melt off in a really scary way, to where I thought the paint was acidic in some way and was melting the plastic. I didn't have this issue at all with the normal plastic models. I could have marines hold out their swords, and my dreadnought had no problem flying his banner. And I could paint them, the most important part. I'm glad you haven't had any issues with Tamiya, because I just got my first model from them and looking forward to it.
Before watching I must ask... Is it ok that I'm a heretic who doesn't mind finecast? I like the detail it gives me despite the fact I have to resculpt a quarter of the model and shave away massive blocks (not too different from resin in that respect) and is extremely brittle is a downside I have a few finecast models I love (Kor'sarro Khan looks great, My Ordo Malleus and Hereticus Inquisitors look awesome too,Inquisitor Coatez looks great ,My friends Cato Sicarius is awesome too) So despite it's issues I enjoy it. None of my guys have melted yet. I live in Canada :)
KuK137 I have many metal models and I must agree. I like metal models but cleaning them is not very fun lol. (neither is finecast but it shaves away much quicker)
Reasonable my ass. Finecast is the worst thing GW has ever done. It melts, it's more toxic than working with plastic or metal, it usually has air bubbles, it's almost always miscast to some extent, it's brittle as fuck, you always have to spend time heating it and reshaping it, etc. It's absolutely terrible. For every good finecast model you get there would be about 10 good plastic models of it. Has it gotten better? Sure, but it's still far below the standards set. It's hilarious when you look at 3rd part models form Wargame Exclusive warhammer substitute models and compare them to finecast. How is it that a third party can make far better quality models with quality resin than even forge world can AND it costs less? Finecast is inexcusable for the cost. Seriously I recently bought a box of howling banshees and had to spend about ten times longer preparing them than I would if they were still metal. Having to reshape every single sword and body, having to fill so many fucking air bubbles in the hair, having to clean so much flash off of them and then having to green stuff several ones that were miscast. I dont understand how you people can defend this. It's absurd. I also don't get how you can say metal is more annoying to work with than finecast. Finecast breaks SO EASILY, and the amount of flash on it often means that if you are painting a model with tons of small details you will often remove some of the detail by accident. Especially since the detail is usually melded into other parts of the model because the casting of finecast is so bad. Do you know the real reason GW went to finecast? Because it's cheaper. Why then DOES IT COST MORE TO BUY FINECAST MODELS? There is simply no defending finecast. It's the worst thing you can ever work with. I would rather work with the old lead models than finecast. At least I'm not inhaling the lead.
I live in Canada so melting isn't an issue for me. I have had a couple warped swords but they were easily fixable with warm water Bubbles are easy If 3rd party companies like kromlich or victoria etc.. produce better options for you then go buy them. All my finecast models are independant characters so I don't mind spending a bit of extra time on them I never would have bought a 10 man squad of finecast though. I just like the detail for centerpiece models. I've been painting 40k since 2003 and I'm a classical realist portrait artist. And all I gotta say is although it presents certain issues finecast is fine as long as you aren't a total potato.
I bought 11 fine cast product from GW... All 11 are shit.. Expensive... Yet I have to fill it with simple green@ most major repair.... Bent dip in hot water@hair dryer... Yet from time to time I bend again back to the original shape
you have to put your brush in your mouth, anyone that says they don't is simply lying. it's the best way to shape the bristles. I've seen pro's doing it too. for a while I just thought it was a bad habit I had as well. ha ha.
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that GW charged so much for the finecast minis because they knew that they were going to have to exchange/replace a metric shitload of the things, thus driving up the cost. Kind of a dick move on their part if true, but it happens in other industries, so why not this one?
Here's my question. Games-Workshop and Forge World are together. Why not use the same kind of resin? Price of the models aside, Forge World's is far and above the better quality resin. I've never had any of the problems here with them.
I actually didn’t have a bad experience with finecast and I bought most my models during the initial few months of FC. I think my local store was screening them up front and only keeping good casts.
I have a white metal Dreadnought, that thing weighs a ton. Also, as Sisters of Battle player, they are definitely still making white metal. It's a major reason I started playing Warmachine, they make better models, and steampunk robots are awesome
Get it right. It's Fineshit, alright? The finest and purest shit in the land. D:< Honestly, I hate metal models... But I would rather go through the process of getting the metal mini, making a mold out of it, then resin cast my own. And then keep the mold just in case the resin version somehow gets destroyed. Is this against some policy? Probably. Would I get kicked out of GW stores? More than likely, but I would have to want to play in one before that happens. And that is never going to happen. Will I be selling recasts? Fuuuuuuuck no. As long as I have 1 to 1, the metal model to resin version, then I don't see a problem. Not 1 metal model and 2, 3, 4, 5 resins version simultaneously. Whatever "resin" they are using is shit. Absolute garbage. Might as well light the whole thing up and watch it burn. It would be more entertaining that way.
Oh god the true pain :showing the old magic nagash of Gary M, but What's à fatbloke on the field at this time The Retraiting Transfert Molding was inadapted, in many case... Sometime if your are Lucky you got à perfect one...
Makes lead look like a good option... sadly it was banned because of beureaucrats who don't understand lead isn't toxic unless you ingest it. File them in somewhere with good ventilation and don't lick your paintbrushes...
@@williamchristy9463 of course they are, the only alternative I know of is steel core armor penetrating bullets from Russia that are banned all over the place. What in the world are you taking about?
@@mkfort Alright, you're mostly correct. Alternatives to lead *do* exist, however. In fact, in portions of America, lead bullets are outright banned due to endangered scavenger species, like Condors. It was my understanding that there was a *general* ban across the U.S, but that was incorrect. Apologies.
@@williamchristy9463 well good on you for learning. I'm not a hunter but I'm pretty sure those are hunting regulations, not bullet regulations. And I think most of those alternatives would be loaded in shotguns (shot, slugs, sabots) so not strictly bullets anyway. Something other than lead going through a handgun or rifle would probably mess up the barrel pretty quickly.
I think fans will eventually just get a metal 3d printer and start making their own models to skip buying crap from games workshop. You can see some of the new and CHEAP 3d metal printers here: th-cam.com/video/W_jcYga95aY/w-d-xo.html Its not super cheap now, but in the future I think we will see easy availability for this technology and then wargamers can just go design their own model and print it off at a friends house or a commercial printing company. Then we can say goodbuy to paying 100 bucks for a single squad.
i've built two finecast characters, Imotech and Gor-Rok Imotech sucked ass, his staff was flimsy and coverred in awful mold lines, he's a cool looking sculpt but a very fragile and annoying one. Gor-Rok, conversely, is actually pretty cool. he's bulky enough that the resin doesn't bend anywhere, the mold lines were never anywhere annoying, and he held detail pretty well.
As someone that worked for 9 years in casting foundry, and now works in QA of machine shop I can say if is fucking disgrace what kind of crap WG delivers to the costumers. As QA if allowed parts with defects like those to go to the customer they would make NCR complaint on them and my boss would fire me on spot.
also, of course they reused the same molds, that's how they haven't gone out of business yet, they reuse everything and also whenever they spend less money they charge more lol, they probably mold a bunch and warehouse it effectively spending no money on production for years and years because they have 500 million sprues molded up in a warehouse someplace, but every year they raise the price anyways even though they are not actually molding anything that year (look at your sprues, im unboxing sprues for orks from 2009, that cost 72$ (us) through amazon (it's 85$ us through games workshop) SO that means GW is making 2018 amounts of profit from stuff they molded nearly a decade ago!, and inflation isnt much of a thing, because it gets cheaper to produce because they outsource it to china, so basically GW is making money hand over fist on stuff they molded 10 years ago, or longer, they rarely change models for this reason (imo), they use a model for 10 or 15 years before making new ones, if they even do make new ones. GW is bad, they are just bad, they abuse us as consumers, and then laugh all the way to the bank, and we let them do it.
It bugs me how GW ruined all resin models for a ton of fans. Resin still has a place in production for things that don't sell as well, as well as things that can be posed like mechadendrites and tentacles by heating them. Well executed Resin models have extreme levels of detail also, but gw just screwed the pooch to where people just are against resin in general now.
As an owner of about 120 metal kasrkin stormtroopers, I can honestly admit that I stopped purchasing models from gw around the time they came out with this farce, also models actually INCREASED in cost when fail cast came out, a typical $22 marine model went up to about $28 and they still claimed that the resin was “better”, bitch please, that shit is half as heavy and cheap, don’t lie to me
They used resin well before fine cast. At least internally. If they needed the evy metal team to paint stuff up before it was ready for production they would cast it in resin. If you have ever seen the salamander Thunderfire Cannon that model is resin and that was the case well before fine cast was a thing.
Nah, accoring to GW, soap and hot water fixes everything. I used to play Tau in 6th ed, sold my army, and am getting back in. All the Tau bits on sprues now either are hollow or have cavities in all the pieces (meaning they're using less plastic) yet they've upped their prices by at least 30% depending on the kit. Meanwhile Chinese and Russian recasters are same level or better quality than the source product. Sad. Very sad.
I literally stopped playing b/c of Finecast. I remember my CTan Nightbringer in White Metal had MASSIVE GAPS in it. But the Finecast one was worse. Plus prices went up and I was literally priced out of the game for over 12 years. Now I'm coming back and I avoid buying GW official models instead I buy recasts. And you know what? 12 years later, I'M GLAD GW IS STILL NOT GETTING MY MONEY.
@@adammclaughlin845 Google "Kroot Knarlock Riders" and you will find plenty of related sellers. The demand for Knarlock recasts has risen since GW basically cut everything that is Kroot. If kroot rules weren't such shit I think more people would buy them, currently their only support is due to the community who supports their fluff. Searching for discontinued minis a is a great way to find recasters. Ebay hosts tons of them. Also Ali Babba is also a great place to look as well but you will have to look for unrelated .
boss snickrot has no problem aswell aside from a few iv seen where the blases were broken in box but that was due to the clam shell package being smashed
I came back to the game after a couple years away, my first finecaste model was a dark apostle...............worst model EVER. bubbles, missing bits, bent bits, base wouldnt sit flat, it was so bad i gave up trying to fix it.
So..... 3d printing..... With a thin coat of smoothing material.... Can make products of far better quality...... The technology is cheap now, easy to use, and you never need to front money on molds. Sculpters can either make these digitally, or EVEN BETTER USE A 3D SCANNER on their physical sculpts. High end 3d printing exists and is way better than this.
Shitcast I mean finecast, is totally dire. got a load of Eldar Aspect warriors in it, just doesnt fking work. Pure shit, sometimes even comes broken so instantly having to do a repair job. Had an eldar spirit seer come with its staff snapped clear in half, had to pin it and green stuff it too, still missing bits but made it work, never getting finecast again. Especially after the eldar ranger i got who's rifle was bent 90 degrees upwards.
well I had heard about the horror stories ... and its all pretty damn true FINE CAST IS FINE TRASH. Bubbles broken or un--molded bits... warped pieces that dont fit ... its a nightmare... they should take these off shelves and give fucking refunds.. as this is straight trash.
FineCast (Fine Crap!) is a bust and I'm glad GW is going to plastics but the draw back is higher prices and a figure in single pose with almost no extra bits. I really have to wonder why mono pose, this is really annoying.
Citadel Finecrap : All the carcinogens of Forge World and other higher quality Co.'s none of the quality, detail or durability and full of unforgivable detail destroying holes holes at TWICE the price of the original Pewter even though they were using FAR inferior and cheaper molds and materials than what they used for the pewter. Don't even get me started on the B.S. line of excuses of "just use liquid green stuff"...or the fact that liquid green stuff was rubbish for anything other than sculpting fur or filthy cloth on undead minis. And drooping / melting is a very real thing.. try building a harlequin army using Citadel Finecrap in Texas, Louisiana , Mississippi ,Georgia or Florida. your entire army will be bent to an unsalvagable mess in ONE PLAY SESSION. Ask me how I know this little fact.
Those finecast Tiger tanks cost Germany the war. Russians kept using lead pewter in their T-34s right up till the end.
1/7 the cost, but no reduction in retail price.
CEO logic.
Well, if people are already paying the price, there is no reason to lower it
SiegeTF naw, just GW logic
Reduction? IIRC, they actually increased the prices.
@@santiagolozoya4940 you could sell more by having more reasonable prices.
@@Senbei01 The prices stayed the same, they just did their usual annual price increases at the exact same time so it looked like they went up. Was a really bad PR move.
If you look there are examples of the models actually melting. They never took into account weather conditions outside England.
Dude they didnt even work in england... Ive had rangers with 90 degree bends on their guns, and spirit seers who's staff's were totally broken in half on opening.
Back in 2013, I tink, I heard a story about a finecast horseman melting and falling forward, collapsing under it's own weight.
Also, a squad of elven spearmen had their spears bend in australian heat so much, it was impossible to salvage. They were sicklemen from then on.
@@MizantropMan that "horseman" was a finecast Gandalf the White who famously melted in a forum discussion thread on finecast
4:59 - Only £649.99!!
Wow what a bargain! I think i would of definitley got 3 of them if i was into the hobby when they were out!
fucking hell, I can get a group a fucking group of knights without thinking about inflation. I hope it was limited becouse after the prints were done they hsoved the mold up the ass of the guy who had this idea.
>getting rid of lead because it's toxic
>introducing finecast
lol. Well done GW.
Well, to nitpick, properly cured resin isn't toxic _in itself,_ but needs precautions when sanding it because it makes dust of such small particle size that it can end up in your lungs if inhaled.
Yeah, Finecast was/is terrible. My local GW always recommended that people open their Finecast products in store incase a replacement was required (Aspect Warriors were particularly bad).
Finecast put me off buying a lot of models that I otherwise would have loved to own.
When finecast very first came out, GW told the staff at my local store that it wasn't normal resin, and that it was a plastic-resin hybrid and non-toxic. (They only allowed forge world models in the store after they were built, no filing/sawing resin allowed, for good reason) They then allowed people to build them instore and there was kids (well young teenagers, like 12, 13, 14 year olds) and some adults who were building the models instore, filing and scraping away at mould lines and fitting parts without dust masks) They backpedaled on this FAST and had to tell people not to do that. Was a lawsuit waiting to happen.
I never got any finecast as the sculpts were shit, and this could of been a major problem but no one actually bought any significant amounts of finecast while i was a younger gamer, people avoided it like the plauge and i don't think i saw a guy buy one and build it instore without having to return it, one guy returned a inquisitor 3 times because of how bad the cast was and then the shop had none left so had to refund him.
My finecast Cryptek broke that many times in the arms, I got so frustrated with it and cut up some regular plastic arms to use instead. And the amount of times I had to fix Imotekh's staff, IN THE SAME FUCKING SPOT. At least my CSM characters haven't broken yet, not that I've ever used Abaddon.....
Quick note, the video actually ends at 26:49 but TH-cam's editing program hasn't applied this to the video, I'm working on re-editing it down as it's just the background track extending the run time. ~Macca
Hey, Macca. How come you didn't even talk about how hard it is to paint resin/finecast in this video?
love what broke the fans videos, im having such a hard time getting metal rangers at a reasonable price, never bought resin and never will
Your convertions are a neat replacement
Annnd to this day a majority of the Eldar army is still finecast, but space marines have plastic toilets for every chapter and sub chapter LOL.
Cool video mate, some great Finecast nasties for sure. The temperature thing is a very good point, FC might be okay in ambient UK temperatures but clearly not in hot climates.
One thing on the early metal for Games Workshop models, in the mid to late eighties all GW figures were cast in a white metal alloy (pewter) which was then switched to a lead-free version to allow them to continue to sell the models to children due to changes in UK law. That is why more recent GW metal figures are so tough and difficult to clean up compared to those cast in the higher lead content pewter. Not all manufacturers use lead free pewters today, for example Warlord Games's white metal carries some lead although some of their licensed figures e.g. Doctor Who are cast lead-free.
crap. i live in florida.
@@kazoo689 Same. some of my finecast models melted and warped to an unrecognizable state.
I think the worst aspect of this whole debacle is that although GW stood by it's principle of excellent customer service, whenever I wasn't happy they were prepared to give me an exchange or a refund with a receipt, but at no point were they prepared to accept how ridiculously and horribly flawed their product was (and still is for the few models still produced with it) it always angered me how staff were so wrapped up in doublethink that they just became tedious and infuriating to talk to. It made me feel ignored and easily dismissed even though the issue was so blatantly obvious to see.
Future Shop had a similar model - you could return just about anything, even stuff that was opened... and replace it with more shit.
Future Shop isn't a thing anymore. Go figure.
When I see a model is in resin, I just don't buy it. Often I go to ebay to look for the older metal model.
I felt like I had nothing but nightmares when it came to fine cast, my final straw was an ironwarriors tech priest whose mechandrites were an absolute mess and all the detail was fucked, I got my refund in the end but never bought any more finecast.
Throughout the whole finecast experience, one purchase after another I just longed for white metal, I enjoyed painting with it
the first finecast i got was boss snickrot and i had no issue with him no warped bits no mold slip no bubbles and not mich gate and flash cleanup he fit together perfectly no gap filler needed
The Skaven Assassin I use to lead my Skaven warband was bought new in metal.
Nice.
Did anyone else find finecast models were hard to paint well compared to plastic?
one last thing, i think thats why games workshop doesn't go back , too, i dont think they can, i think they bid a molding job in china, mold out 500k of these things, and thats that, what they have is what they sell because they are greedy and cheap, they dont want to go back and rebid for another mold company to mold new parts when they have half a million sprues of old parts, based on the dates on the parts, these parts sit around someplace, sometimes decades before ever being sold, so thats why i think they dont try and go back and fix anything, it would explain why they seem to ignore the consumer base as well, they dont want to say "well, actually we molded 10 years worth of space marines in 2008 and we havnt molded any more space marines during that time, but we increased the price for no reason, because why not, you'll buy it anyways", i think they plan it all out, obviously they have managed to survive when nearly all other board game companies went under, i believe it's because they abuse the consumers and most people dont know about it, somehow.
GW and most went to non lead metal After they won a lawsuit versus New York State in 1990 ...It was cheaper to change over to a non lead pewter than to go to court in a different state ( possibly all 50) and win .
I actually gave up and sold my eldar army because of all the aspect warriors being outright unusable in finecast format. I had 2-3 packs of swooping hawks that were intended to stand on tiptoe in this material, and scorpions with wonky chainswords plagued my nightmares
Hey I remember that thunderhawk, one of those crushed my iron warriors once... or twice.
To be honest, while Finecast is certainly not my favourite material to work with, I have never really experienced all the horrorstories I've heard about Finecast, the only problem I've had is the broken horn of an Archon. Maybe just luck ;)
This makes the old airfix kits look good
Great video. The only problem with it is the reference to videogames about glich and patches, especially about recent years.
My 3 exeriences with Finecast were all bad and ended with refounds.
I was fairly active in the hobby when lead was phased out of white metal. This was in response to UK legislation at the time (the actual lead content was already low, transfer to brush would have not really resulted in any danger esp considering many homes in Europe still have lead pipes in places).
Introduction of LFP came with a cost boost, because supposedly the metal was more expensive. However that was cost per weight, as LFP was lighter you got more, so actually the cost per mini was about the same.
I still don't think the material is the main issue here. Even with low quality resin you should still be able to create a good miniature, yes it might be a bit more brittle or something but it shouldn't be like what Finecast is.
The main issue really seems to be the molding process you mentioned.
Problem was that they changed the material without revisiting the molds or the process. Anyone with half a degree in material physics could tell you that it's a recipe for disaster.
I love tamyia I have been building them when I was 9
a reduction of 1/7th cost of materials would never equal a cost of sale at to 1/7th, because of the total cost of production, only a small fraction is spent on raw materials. the rest is distribution, packaging, staff costs, building rentals, equipment upkeep etc
That is correct, and I should have been more clear. By the same token, going to white metal from lead meant they actually paid less than you think due to the weight reduction. Good comment anyway, and a point I didn't make clear, realistically a material cost decrease would likely be a 30-50% reduction, not an 86% reduction.
not nessisarily, for example machining titatinium and polishing it is a nightmare, the raw material is much cheaper than high quality steel but the machining process is far more costly.
at least in my business material cost has virtually no end result on the cpst of the product at all
I remember getting excited about Finecast and getting Lelith Hexperax (IMHO great choice for resin mini if done correctly) from initial batch... and then replacing it after checking her for faults in home.... and replacing it after checking for faults with store owner... and basically repeating it till we run out of models.
EVERY SINGLE MODEL was missing huge chunk of resin, usually in same place (along with many small details, like spikes etc). How's that for quality control? Selling whole botched batch for premium?
11:50 oh yeah, EXACTLY this shit.
I actually had better success with casting miniatures myself (sue me) than Games Workshop. Or Forgeworld, for that matter.
Has this been resolved? Where are we at with the materials GW and others use?
Painting minis for 35 years. Licked my brush maybe 5 times. Also they moved to lead free when legislation made them do so.
Steel legion is entirely white metal still. I've ordered every steel legion unit available. I love metal models mostly for nostalgia reasons.
Metal is great. It has a collectible value.
No wonder it's called steel legion
I was lucky, one of my first sets were the old raptors. Now not knowing how to clean the release agent the painting was a chore... However the models were actually bubble free some how! Mind you a friend playing eldar got bonned. ALL his aspect warrors were wrecked...
they changed it because of pending regulations would make it almost impossible to do business, especially in the case of selling to children. No one is gonna get lead poisoning from a lead figure , you will get more lead in a single fish than from a lifetime miniature painting unless you actually tried to ingest the lead and that would be a mental health issue.
I really have to ask what GW was thinking with finecast. to this date I only have 2 finecast miniatures and the both have bendy parts. I also refuse to use them during summer as the bend. On the bright side at least they now have (unintended) unique poses. I would really like to get more flayed ones for my army but I will not buy the finecast ones, and the metal ones seem to come up on ebay few and far between or at ridiculously inflated prices.
Finecast, oh the horror.
my first (would be last, but there's the alpha legion...) experience with finecast was severina raine from the bl celebration in february. it had bubbles in the base, some warping, and the gun was quite mismatched. the worst part was, i went out on the deck of my house to use a heatgun on her, and her sword and sheath fell through the freakin floor. therefore, i was forced to go under the nasty ass deck and find her sheath (that fell first, and while putting that back on the table, i knocked the sword arm onto the ground. then, while trying to pick it up, i knocked it through the floor). i will admit it was in large part my fault, but if there was no warping on the model, i wouldn't have had to do that. but alpha legion is so hot...
The thing that got me with the whole failcast debacle was , you pay a premium price for our premium product ( which was only fit for the bin ) , and then you have to pay a premium price for our premium filler for our premium miniatures . Errr fuck no .
Have you seen the furore around the Old witch 2 model from Privateer Press ? Lol talk about cheap skate model companies lol
I have two finecast models; a Lord Commissar and Commander Farsight. The Commissar was not too difficult to clean up and put together, since he was about 4 pieces, but Farsight was a disaster. Comparing them to other resin models, such as those from Victoria Miniatures, they make finecast look like a scam. When I think about it, comparing any of GWs models to those of Bandai, I think GW is running a scam.
This reminds me of a fair few years ago, when my dad bought me my first finecast model: (I, )Cato Sicarius. The mold itself wasn't that bad, and I only needed to file it down a little. However, also living in Australia, a off-coast area no less, I wasn't even able to put him together properly. I struggled for days trying to get his flag to stay on his back, but because of the length, it would simple fall off. Same for his sword arm, but that I could eventually get to stay on... until it fell off during a game with one of my friends. I couldn't even paint it either, the paint would sort of melt off in a really scary way, to where I thought the paint was acidic in some way and was melting the plastic.
I didn't have this issue at all with the normal plastic models. I could have marines hold out their swords, and my dreadnought had no problem flying his banner. And I could paint them, the most important part.
I'm glad you haven't had any issues with Tamiya, because I just got my first model from them and looking forward to it.
Before watching I must ask... Is it ok that I'm a heretic who doesn't mind finecast? I like the detail it gives me despite the fact I have to resculpt a quarter of the model and shave away massive blocks (not too different from resin in that respect) and is extremely brittle is a downside I have a few finecast models I love (Kor'sarro Khan looks great, My Ordo Malleus and Hereticus Inquisitors look awesome too,Inquisitor Coatez looks great ,My friends Cato Sicarius is awesome too) So despite it's issues I enjoy it. None of my guys have melted yet. I live in Canada :)
And I'd like to add I have had warped pieces and it's really hard to fix so I understand why people hate on it.
The models shown in the video are WAY worse than the ones I got. I must be lucky :)
I'd buy lots of FW models if I weren't so poor
KuK137 I have many metal models and I must agree. I like metal models but cleaning them is not very fun lol. (neither is finecast but it shaves away much quicker)
Reasonable my ass. Finecast is the worst thing GW has ever done. It melts, it's more toxic than working with plastic or metal, it usually has air bubbles, it's almost always miscast to some extent, it's brittle as fuck, you always have to spend time heating it and reshaping it, etc. It's absolutely terrible. For every good finecast model you get there would be about 10 good plastic models of it. Has it gotten better? Sure, but it's still far below the standards set. It's hilarious when you look at 3rd part models form Wargame Exclusive warhammer substitute models and compare them to finecast. How is it that a third party can make far better quality models with quality resin than even forge world can AND it costs less? Finecast is inexcusable for the cost.
Seriously I recently bought a box of howling banshees and had to spend about ten times longer preparing them than I would if they were still metal. Having to reshape every single sword and body, having to fill so many fucking air bubbles in the hair, having to clean so much flash off of them and then having to green stuff several ones that were miscast. I dont understand how you people can defend this. It's absurd.
I also don't get how you can say metal is more annoying to work with than finecast. Finecast breaks SO EASILY, and the amount of flash on it often means that if you are painting a model with tons of small details you will often remove some of the detail by accident. Especially since the detail is usually melded into other parts of the model because the casting of finecast is so bad. Do you know the real reason GW went to finecast? Because it's cheaper. Why then DOES IT COST MORE TO BUY FINECAST MODELS? There is simply no defending finecast. It's the worst thing you can ever work with. I would rather work with the old lead models than finecast. At least I'm not inhaling the lead.
I live in Canada so melting isn't an issue for me.
I have had a couple warped swords but they were easily fixable with warm water
Bubbles are easy
If 3rd party companies like kromlich or victoria etc.. produce better options for you then go buy them.
All my finecast models are independant characters so I don't mind spending a bit of extra time on them
I never would have bought a 10 man squad of finecast though.
I just like the detail for centerpiece models.
I've been painting 40k since 2003 and I'm a classical realist portrait artist.
And all I gotta say is although it presents certain issues finecast is fine as long as you aren't a total potato.
IIRC that Nagash model was 94/95.
5:43 "40k fantasy" XD ???
I bought 11 fine cast product from GW...
All 11 are shit..
Expensive...
Yet I have to fill it with simple green@ most major repair....
Bent dip in hot water@hair dryer...
Yet from time to time I bend again back to the original shape
should have been called "sculpt your own"
93 or so they band led minis in the us
you have to put your brush in your mouth, anyone that says they don't is simply lying. it's the best way to shape the bristles. I've seen pro's doing it too. for a while I just thought it was a bad habit I had as well. ha ha.
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that GW charged so much for the finecast minis because they knew that they were going to have to exchange/replace a metric shitload of the things, thus driving up the cost. Kind of a dick move on their part if true, but it happens in other industries, so why not this one?
Here's my question. Games-Workshop and Forge World are together. Why not use the same kind of resin?
Price of the models aside, Forge World's is far and above the better quality resin. I've never had any of the problems here with them.
I actually didn’t have a bad experience with finecast and I bought most my models during the initial few months of FC. I think my local store was screening them up front and only keeping good casts.
I actually stopped buying character models after my first few Fine Cast purchases.
I have a white metal Dreadnought, that thing weighs a ton. Also, as Sisters of Battle player, they are definitely still making white metal.
It's a major reason I started playing Warmachine, they make better models, and steampunk robots are awesome
Get it right. It's Fineshit, alright? The finest and purest shit in the land. D:<
Honestly, I hate metal models... But I would rather go through the process of getting the metal mini, making a mold out of it, then resin cast my own. And then keep the mold just in case the resin version somehow gets destroyed. Is this against some policy? Probably. Would I get kicked out of GW stores? More than likely, but I would have to want to play in one before that happens. And that is never going to happen. Will I be selling recasts? Fuuuuuuuck no. As long as I have 1 to 1, the metal model to resin version, then I don't see a problem. Not 1 metal model and 2, 3, 4, 5 resins version simultaneously.
Whatever "resin" they are using is shit. Absolute garbage. Might as well light the whole thing up and watch it burn. It would be more entertaining that way.
my poor eldar warp spiders etc
love monopose
Oh god the true pain :showing the old magic nagash of Gary M, but What's à fatbloke on the field at this time
The Retraiting Transfert Molding was inadapted, in many case... Sometime if your are Lucky you got à perfect one...
Avoiding lead poisoning most certainly is worth a few bucks.
Makes lead look like a good option... sadly it was banned because of beureaucrats who don't understand lead isn't toxic unless you ingest it. File them in somewhere with good ventilation and don't lick your paintbrushes...
It was banned because children like to play with figurines. You can buy lead everywhere in America when it's safely inside a bullet.
@@mkfort bullets aren't made of lead.
@@williamchristy9463 of course they are, the only alternative I know of is steel core armor penetrating bullets from Russia that are banned all over the place. What in the world are you taking about?
@@mkfort Alright, you're mostly correct.
Alternatives to lead *do* exist, however. In fact, in portions of America, lead bullets are outright banned due to endangered scavenger species, like Condors. It was my understanding that there was a *general* ban across the U.S, but that was incorrect.
Apologies.
@@williamchristy9463 well good on you for learning. I'm not a hunter but I'm pretty sure those are hunting regulations, not bullet regulations. And I think most of those alternatives would be loaded in shotguns (shot, slugs, sabots) so not strictly bullets anyway. Something other than lead going through a handgun or rifle would probably mess up the barrel pretty quickly.
I think fans will eventually just get a metal 3d printer and start making their own models to skip buying crap from games workshop. You can see some of the new and CHEAP 3d metal printers here: th-cam.com/video/W_jcYga95aY/w-d-xo.html Its not super cheap now, but in the future I think we will see easy availability for this technology and then wargamers can just go design their own model and print it off at a friends house or a commercial printing company. Then we can say goodbuy to paying 100 bucks for a single squad.
i've built two finecast characters, Imotech and Gor-Rok
Imotech sucked ass, his staff was flimsy and coverred in awful mold lines, he's a cool looking sculpt but a very fragile and annoying one.
Gor-Rok, conversely, is actually pretty cool. he's bulky enough that the resin doesn't bend anywhere, the mold lines were never anywhere annoying, and he held detail pretty well.
Old nagash lol!
As someone that worked for 9 years in casting foundry, and now works in QA of machine shop I can say if is fucking disgrace what kind of crap WG delivers to the costumers. As QA if allowed parts with defects like those to go to the customer they would make NCR complaint on them and my boss would fire me on spot.
Great video mate. Always annoyed at finecast for most of the reasons here.
What Broke the Fans: Tom Kirby
I actually thought about that, but I don't know enough about him to sustain an episode.
The Outer Circle fair enough. Perhaps WBTF: White Dwarf or Sisters of Battle. Thanks for your channel, it’s really good.
I was actually given a free Alexis Polux after I told FW that his shield had lots of bubble popping up on it. That was nice of them.
also, of course they reused the same molds, that's how they haven't gone out of business yet, they reuse everything and also whenever they spend less money they charge more lol, they probably mold a bunch and warehouse it effectively spending no money on production for years and years because they have 500 million sprues molded up in a warehouse someplace, but every year they raise the price anyways even though they are not actually molding anything that year (look at your sprues, im unboxing sprues for orks from 2009, that cost 72$ (us) through amazon (it's 85$ us through games workshop) SO that means GW is making 2018 amounts of profit from stuff they molded nearly a decade ago!, and inflation isnt much of a thing, because it gets cheaper to produce because they outsource it to china, so basically GW is making money hand over fist on stuff they molded 10 years ago, or longer, they rarely change models for this reason (imo), they use a model for 10 or 15 years before making new ones, if they even do make new ones. GW is bad, they are just bad, they abuse us as consumers, and then laugh all the way to the bank, and we let them do it.
It bugs me how GW ruined all resin models for a ton of fans. Resin still has a place in production for things that don't sell as well, as well as things that can be posed like mechadendrites and tentacles by heating them. Well executed Resin models have extreme levels of detail also, but gw just screwed the pooch to where people just are against resin in general now.
Ahhhh nagash the only model with a more munted head than girlyman
As an owner of about 120 metal kasrkin stormtroopers, I can honestly admit that I stopped purchasing models from gw around the time they came out with this farce, also models actually INCREASED in cost when fail cast came out, a typical $22 marine model went up to about $28 and they still claimed that the resin was “better”, bitch please, that shit is half as heavy and cheap, don’t lie to me
Only 649,99$.
They used resin well before fine cast. At least internally. If they needed the evy metal team to paint stuff up before it was ready for production they would cast it in resin.
If you have ever seen the salamander Thunderfire Cannon that model is resin and that was the case well before fine cast was a thing.
Nah, accoring to GW, soap and hot water fixes everything.
I used to play Tau in 6th ed, sold my army, and am getting back in. All the Tau bits on sprues now either are hollow or have cavities in all the pieces (meaning they're using less plastic) yet they've upped their prices by at least 30% depending on the kit.
Meanwhile Chinese and Russian recasters are same level or better quality than the source product.
Sad. Very sad.
I literally stopped playing b/c of Finecast. I remember my CTan Nightbringer in White Metal had MASSIVE GAPS in it. But the Finecast one was worse. Plus prices went up and I was literally priced out of the game for over 12 years.
Now I'm coming back and I avoid buying GW official models instead I buy recasts.
And you know what?
12 years later, I'M GLAD GW IS STILL NOT GETTING MY MONEY.
White sites do you use?
@@adammclaughlin845 Google "Kroot Knarlock Riders" and you will find plenty of related sellers. The demand for Knarlock recasts has risen since GW basically cut everything that is Kroot.
If kroot rules weren't such shit I think more people would buy them, currently their only support is due to the community who supports their fluff.
Searching for discontinued minis a is a great way to find recasters. Ebay hosts tons of them.
Also Ali Babba is also a great place to look as well but you will have to look for unrelated .
May as well make your models outta fuckin' chocolate.
GW selling green stuff because of their shitty casts is like Apple making shitty quality charging wires so they can sell you more wires.
My god they are dreadful the only exception was the nightbringer because he was big, no real issues with him that I notice
boss snickrot has no problem aswell aside from a few iv seen where the blases were broken in box but that was due to the clam shell package being smashed
I came back to the game after a couple years away, my first finecaste model was a dark apostle...............worst model EVER. bubbles, missing bits, bent bits, base wouldnt sit flat, it was so bad i gave up trying to fix it.
honestly i got really lucky with my dark apostle. came together without any problems
So..... 3d printing..... With a thin coat of smoothing material.... Can make products of far better quality...... The technology is cheap now, easy to use, and you never need to front money on molds.
Sculpters can either make these digitally, or EVEN BETTER USE A 3D SCANNER on their physical sculpts.
High end 3d printing exists and is way better than this.
Shitcast I mean finecast, is totally dire. got a load of Eldar Aspect warriors in it, just doesnt fking work. Pure shit, sometimes even comes broken so instantly having to do a repair job. Had an eldar spirit seer come with its staff snapped clear in half, had to pin it and green stuff it too, still missing bits but made it work, never getting finecast again. Especially after the eldar ranger i got who's rifle was bent 90 degrees upwards.
more like Failcast
well I had heard about the horror stories ... and its all pretty damn true FINE CAST IS FINE TRASH. Bubbles broken or un--molded bits... warped pieces that dont fit ... its a nightmare... they should take these off shelves and give fucking refunds.. as this is straight trash.
GW produce a shitty product? You don't say?
Resin still beats the crappy metal head over fist on all the fronts. Finecast was still better then the older metal models deal with it.
Why I'd forge world ressin better than fine cast
Even the recasts are flipping terrible to build, resin sucks for modeling in general
Not lead pewter steel not lead.
They were lead in the 80's... and pewter steel isn't steel. It's lead-alloy or copper alloy, usually with tin.
FineCast (Fine Crap!) is a bust and I'm glad GW is going to plastics but the draw back is higher prices and a figure in single pose with almost no extra bits. I really have to wonder why mono pose, this is really annoying.
Citadel Finecrap : All the carcinogens of Forge World and other higher quality Co.'s none of the quality, detail or durability and full of unforgivable detail destroying holes holes at TWICE the price of the original Pewter even though they were using FAR inferior and cheaper molds and materials than what they used for the pewter.
Don't even get me started on the B.S. line of excuses of "just use liquid green stuff"...or the fact that liquid green stuff was rubbish for anything other than sculpting fur or filthy cloth on undead minis.
And drooping / melting is a very real thing.. try building a harlequin army using Citadel Finecrap in Texas, Louisiana , Mississippi ,Georgia or Florida.
your entire army will be bent to an unsalvagable mess in ONE PLAY SESSION. Ask me how I know this little fact.