It was exegesis. Dan acted like the Christain was not exegeting the text, so that he could accuse him of presuppositions, and pull a circular reasoning/eisegesis charge out of thin air. You notice how Dan says, "It doesn't say that Jesus was "fully" God," when the Christian brings up the Thomas interaction. He even puts up air quotes in the video. Exegesis, and quite frankly an iota of common sense would suggest that Thomas did not intend to say Jesus was 23.6% God. This is profound intellectual dishonesty and stupidity. How do you not notice that? Dan is a Mormon with a theological agenda, just like the people he criticizes.
@@jackricky5453 Typical Christian drivel. The Trinity didn’t exist in the first couple of centuries. It evolved and developed just like every doctrine did. Dan pointed this out but I guess you missed it.
@@magepunk2376 This just shows a strong ignorance of early Christianity. Paul is already using a triad formula in 2 Corinthians 13:14 by 55-57 AD which predates all the gospels. Matthew 28:19 which is written only decades after the events of Jesus, has Jesus himself using a triad formula for baptism elevating the Holy Spirit and the Son to the Father. If you're going to play the "but they didn't call it trinity yet game," I will play that game too and show you just how wrong you are. Tertullian and Theophilus of Antioch are already using the word triad and trinity explicitly to talk about the Godhead, well within the second century. Which if you're not aware is not the "first couple centuries away" from the crucifixion. The second century starts 70 years later. These are just part of the very few surviving sources that still exist, no less, in a place where only about 3-5% of people can read and write, and most of them are not Christians.
@@jackricky5453 Here’s the thing though, none of the sources you mention had anything like the now “orthodox” doctrine of the trinity in mind. You are projecting that onto them to support your case.
@@magepunk2376 Really? Paul's letters aren't orthodox now? Matthew's gospel isn't orthodox? Please explain. Explain how I'm projecting the trinity onto their formulas. If you're going to accuse me, you might as well have evidence to back it up. You clearly have yet to read 1 Corinthian 8:6 and Philipians 2:6-1. You certainly haven't read 2 Corinthians 3:17. They could not be more obvious. Put them together and explain how they do not imply modern orthodoxy.
on the topic of the trinity, you rely on the council of Nicea to support the claim: ‘at that moment christian’s believed in the trinity’. Infact no, the trinity was well articulated far before the council of Nicea. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD) Ephesians 18:2: “There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both from Mary and from God; first passible and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.” Justin Martyr(c. 100-165 AD) “For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.” Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD) “ Two persons are God, the Father and the Son, and, with the addition of the Holy Spirit, even Three” Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-235 AD) “For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One” Furthermore the Trinity is truly based on the Biblical texts, not as reading the trinity back into but as reading the biblical text to get the trinity, you imply the verbatim fallacy but regardless I’ll prove it. As we already established Israel believes in One Singular True God. This God is identified as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not as agents or images but as truly divine persons. Holy Spirit: 1 Corinthians 3:16: “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” Corinthians 2:11: “For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.” God the Son: John 1:1, 14:”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” This verse specifically highlights the eternal nature of the Son proving he is not simple and image of the Father but an eternal person Hebrews 1:8: “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever…’” Colossians 2:9: “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” God the Father: 1 John 5:20: “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” Isaiah 44:6: “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.’” John 17:3: “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. ~ Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 22 August 1813
@@JohnLovell-q9p three persons one essence I’ve seen countless times that people think the trinity is God is three persons and one person at the same time. The threeness is the persons. The oneness is the essence
The bible doesn't deny other Gods. There are many God's in the bible. But there is only one supreme God, especially in the Nt. The supreme God is the God of Jesus.
Be careful to sort orthodox theological reflection from the trash offered by johnnie-come-latelies who seem to have misses every memo of the last 1700 years.
@@ConsideringPhlebas Dan gets a lot,of things right but he, like the much less sophisticated and generally lamer Bart Ehrman, throws the baby out with the bath water. The fact is that theology has a strong relationship,to scripture but also to the oral tradition of worship out of which scripture comes. All ‘biblical scholars’ who do their study in stubborn refusal to look at traditional orthodox worship as the exegetical key are outside the mainstream and study under a feeble lamp.
@@kyleepratt There’s a big shift, almost complete, in English usage, in the meaning of begging the question. When everyone always uses it wrong, the wrong meaning becomes right. It's like using "it's" as a possessive. It's become the de facto standard.
Dan, I think you've really hit upon the concept of what I call "the puzzle ring god". I use puzzle rings as a metaphor for describing the Trinity: three rings which can be assembled into a single ring, or which can be taken apart to be three separate rings. What I find puzzling about believing this is that although they can be assembled into a singular unit, the rings remain individuals. Why don't Christians add a fourth version of God and have them sing as a barbershop quartet?
This video explains the holy spirit better than years of Baptist exposure and straight up asking what the holy spirit was. It didn't help that they called it the holy ghost. The whole explanation wound up sounding like someone explaining a Scooby Doo episode they saw while high
Actually, the trinity works really well if you change the central "God" and simply replace it with Godhead. This actually works really well with the name Elohim which is plural, but also singular. There are many words in English that are plural but also singular such as, team, group, committee, council, panel... In Genesis you will notice that when God speaks, the writer is careful to designate which of the Elohim is speaking. The English says Lord, but the Hebrew actually says Yeshua Elohim.
@@sotl97Nononononononono Elohim is ONLY PLURAL, and it won't work your way just because you want to play semantics like if you could cheat logic by being a sophist. Stop it. You're wrong. Deal with it. Get educated, and stop apologetics
What? Three entities does not a Trinity make, again, what? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
You know, when I learned about divine epithets, I thought immediately about my Christian upbringing and how beautiful the idea was that humans, in their time of need, could invoke a specific framing of the nature of god and take comfort from that invocation. Christianity could be a pretty cool religion if its practitioners would just collectively unclench their buttholes about it.
Megan who has a podcast with Bart Ehrman listens to him crap all over the Bible but she's a Christian. One of my favorites flat earth debunkers criticizes the Bible and doesn't know if any of it is true and historical but he identified as a Christian as well. One of the books I read when I was leaving the JWs was a book by Leslie Wetherhead called The Christian Agnostic and it was about people who go to church but don't really care what the Bible says. The OP's point is a good one, get rid of literalists and there's some validity to Christianity being almost ok.
@@cygnustsp Bart Ehrman never "craps all over the Bible". Just like Dan, he makes a difference between what the Bible actually is and what people believe it or want it to be. He tears down this misconceptions, not "the Bible."
Who is speaking in Isaiah 45:5? Is it the Person of the Father or of the Son? Compare Isaiah 44:6-8 with 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, as Christ is our only Rock. Then consider, Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
Wait, which concept? The trinity? Cause there's nothing to understand there, it's irrational. A post hoc rationalization meant to force existing Biblical texts into the framework of developing dogmas from the late 2nd century onwards.
Exactly - you don’t understand it because it’s nonsense. Being brought up evangelical I was told (when I asked) some variation of its complicated so just accept it and have faith (lest ye burn in hell for all eternity.) Translation - “I don’t get it either, but hell terrifies me.”
The one explanation that made a lot of sense to me was Inspiring Philosophies analogy to the fourth dimension. To me, that is a totally coherent and legitimate explanation of the trinity. However, I wholly agree with Dan that the trinity must be presupposed to read it into the Bible.
@@DreDre2001 I don't think dimensions affect quantities. It can affect our perception of them, tho, but a text inspired by God should ignore faulty perceptions and just describe the actual situation.
Finally someone who knows what he's talking. All this time I thought the meaning of the text was saying that no other God exist beside me! Now through Dan I've come to learn that its means that no other God matter to you but me! This is a totally different understanding than what Christian fundamentalist dogma teaches.. Now I understand that Church dogma is kept me these last 50 years in completely misunderstanding the text. Thank you Dan for teaching me correctly thru your videos..
it's like when someone goes through a tough time, and they see a beautiful rainbow, even though it was not particularly rainbow weather. And they say, "that's when I knew, I had to carry on. That rainbow? that rainbow was God telling me he was with me all the way..." They don't actually mean the rainbow itself is fully God, but so is Jesus, or some shit. Hell, it's exactly the language used with the dove and the holy spirit.
This idea of the divine image has remained in Christianity pretty strongly. The theology of icons as well as the idea of sacramental priesthoods really all ties into it.
@@Carblesnarky like has he not read St Basil? That’s a huge element of his Trinitarian thought and St Basil is one of the major “three persons one essence” figures. It’s totally iconic. He complains about presuppositions as if he’s not himself reading a philosophical presupposition into the text. It’s impossible not to.
But although people in this thread do not notice, the notion of images is importnt to Trinity, too. Writing to Ampihlochus, St. Basil tells us to imagine an image more perfect than any manmade or natural image: whatever happens to the one image happens to the other. Whatever is done by one is done by the other. If this reminds you of the verses in John about the Son seeing what the Father does etc. you are beginning to understand. NB this does not work so well with the Latin concept, which pushes the unity of the Trinity too far in front, so that it sounds like Sabelllianism
I attended an in-depth seminar on the Trinity and left as confused as when I started. The concept struggles for the reasons you mentioned and is illogical.
Some problem verses for Mr. Red Pen: Exodus 12:12 '...against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments--I am the LORD." You can't say the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows only one God while choosing to ignore all the verses that clearly disagree with you. Rev. 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6 all refer to the "seven spirits of God", which according to my math, puts us at a minimum of 9 person in the Godhead... Ugh. Maybe we got the Trinity math wrong and we should be teaching people about the Enneadity? It doesn't have quite the same ring to it, so we might need to workshop it a bit.
This reminds me of the Catholic priest who taught religious studies back in Jesuit highschool. At one point in class he mused that he did his thesis on the mysteries of the Trinity. His advisor called him into his office and broke down the exact trinitarian or Christological heresy found in every single paragraph and told him to rewrite everything.
@@mickeyrube6623 the best way to describe the trinity is Goku. At least Goku (God) doesn’t talk to his super saiyan form (Jesus) or his aura (Holy Spirit).
Something I remember from apologist literature is comparing the Trinity to the three stages of water. Water can be a solid, liquid, and gas, but all forms are still water. Of course, the Trinity goes WAY deeper than that.
In reference to the Shema, another possible translation posed by academic translators is “YHWH is our god, YHWH alone”. I think this carries the idea pretty well since it still merits the idea of other deities.
2:15 That's kinda like saying that only Soundwave is superior and everything else is inferior. 5:10 Like how in ancient China, the Emperor's imperial edict is not the Emperor, but it carries the will and words of the Emperor and so seeing it and the one who bears it is akin to seeing the Emperor himself.
@@solidstorm6129 How is this for a dunk? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
There is technically one trinitarian formula in the New Testament: in John 1, we have Logos, Theos, and Zoe. Zoe is the name of Eve in the Septuagint. Plenty of mythology can be created or reinterpreted from the text.
Hi Dan. Can you share how you think this presupposition (the theological and philosophical innovations of the Trinity) arose? What precursor dogmas must be assumed to lead to this innovation? Is there a resource you can point to that explicates this? I did not see it expounded in your book. Thanks
Dan is too deeply in love with the "Holy Spiri as extension" error to admit his books are lacking in this regard. A much better explanatin is in Kartashev The Ecumenical Councils or, if you can't find that in a language you read, try By Leo D. Davis - The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology -- this is one of the few books in the West to make the important point that during those 3 centuries when Trinitarian language was being elaborated, the Fathers sometimes had to *change* the meanings of words to make them into effective tools for preaching the true dobma to recent converts. I see a lot of error on both sides in this very forum, these errors resulting from forgetting the word 'consubstantial' had to be changed from the Gnostic and philosophical meanings of that word.
Question: You've mentioned many times that the ancient gods in the OT era were tied to their respective lands and ethnic groups. Which makes a lot of sense. But there are some places in the OT where God expands beyond the given land and people groups, most notably IMO with Jonah attempting to convert or call to repentence Assyria at Nineveh. Given how much God seemed to dislike the Assyrians in the OT, why do you think God made this gesture instead of just destroying them like He had with other vexacious nations?
I would imagine that the Deuteronomist's changing of Hebrew texts during their creation of the Hebrew Canon plays a large part. It clearly says that the lands and its people shall be divided according to the Sons of God. And YHWH's portion is the stock of Jacob. Meaning at one point YHWH was not even the High of God. In fact, it tells us that El Elyon is the Most High. So I imagine a lot of texts we read about more widespread ventures of God might have been tales attributed to Elyon before the reign of Josiah. Because before then Polytheism was quite common in the Levant. I read most of the Torah post Genesis as YHWH. But it doesn't give enough direction afterward. Until you reach Deuteronomy 32. And it shows a clear separation between Elyon and YHWH and how the latter is subordinate to the other. ..... final thought....If Elyon was the High God of all peoples why would he need to war to obtain more followers? I don't think he would. But One minor God who only had one portion of the people would, in order to gain more power.
Careful. You just presupposed the existence of that god with that sentence structure. I know atheists can't excommunicate each other or anything, but your sincerity is up for question. But it's not like a nameless evangel-atheist is worried about being snubbed at MENSA parties, are you?
A muslim here, so apologies if the question is a bit basic: If the Holy Spirit and Jesus is a manifestation of God, an extension of God that is not itself God, is that...arianism? Does the Bible have a stronger support for Arianism?
Yeah nope. Like Dan says. Jesus makes a distinction from the Father. Arianism, in this case, would be like Buddhism, where One being shows himself in many forms. On a faith side, I would recommend reading the book of Mormon, it changed my life.
Thanks Dan...I agree. James White has always said I "Assume Unitarianism". I never understood that argument. If God has always been Unitarian until the Trinitarians came, aren't THEY assuming Trinitarianism?
Also the one God is the Father in 1 Corinthians 8:6, which excludes Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Then Jesus said the Father is the only true God in John 17:3 which excludes Jesus and the Holy Spirit; some trinitarians bring up 1 John 5:20 but it can be explained by saying that “he is the true god” is referring to the person that in the previous clause is referred to with the pronoun “his” (the Father). And lastly it says that God knows everything (1 John 3:19-20), but yet “only the Father” knows the hour in Mark 13:32. I can talk more about how Jesus is an intermediary (1 Timothy 2:5) but God is not an intermediary (Galatians 3:20). Some will dispute the last sentence but if only the humanity of Jesus were to be the intermediary, then the human side of Jesus cannot be considered to be God, and those who reject this would be believing in Nestorianism. So there’s no way that the Bible can promote the trinity
Why is it every time someone says the trinity isn't in the Bible, someone assumes they were only saying that because the word "trinity" isn't? Nobody's whole argument against the concept being in the Bible has ever been only that the word isn't.
The way that the guy with the hat is talking about God like he's just this cute thing that he just seems to somehow understand is really hard to take in. If you truly believed there was an immeasurable being with such insane grandiose power that he literally created time and space and gravity and atoms and things we could not even fathom in a million life times but isn't it cute that God is 3 people in one? 😂
Revelation 1:1 doesn't make much sense if you believe in a 1-in-3 Godhead God told Jesus, Jesus told an Angel, and then that Angel told John of Patmos What a celestial bureaucracy 😂
@@jasehobson Because it's an Hellenistic view of god as "other" Jesus Didn't want us to be "other" He wanted us to follow him and be like him and be perfect/whole like his father. A god that is other has no purpose in the creation, It's just creating for entertainment or slaves. Both sound horrible.
@@clearstonewindows Yes we are supposed to be united to God, that is called Theosis (theosis doesn’t mean we become God or a god but that we are united to God), what does that have to do with the Trinity?
@@jasehobson Because that's weird too, and not in the bible. What does that mean? This "other" shape shifter absorbs us if he likes the way we entertain it? The "other" is the weird part of the trinity. The shape shifting, the Why? It's all weird. and not in the bible.
Question: _How do we say The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost are three distinct beings but still just one God?_ Answer according to apologists: _Yes_
Ok, you know what a tesseract is? It’s a 3-dimensional project of a 4th dimensional object. If you were to push a fourth dimensional cube into a 3dimensional world, it would look like a tesseract to the inhabitants of that three dimensional world. It’s like an extrusion from another (or other) dimensions. So, imagine that God is a big ball of play dough getting pushed from spiritual dimensions into our 3 earthly dimensions in three different places and in three different shapes. You may have seen those play dough toys that push the clay through in different shapes, so you have a round shaped bar, or a star shaped bar, or whatever. That’s just like the trinity, except God is being extruded into the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost shapes, not stars or squares or tesseracts. God is the play dough, the trinity is the shapes. 😅 I’m not a trinitarian, but this is the best visualization of the Trinity that I’ve been able to come up with.
@@strangelaw6384 Question: What's the divine nature? Answer: It's a thing possessed by god. It describes god's nature. Question: So what is god's nature? Answer: The father, the son and the holy ghost are distinct and yet one being. (repeat as needed for just under 2k years)
Jesus sits in heaven next to God, so he is not "the God", if i sit next to Ronaldo, I am not Ronaldo. If I have a boss, I am not the supreme boss. Xtianity is a mess
Very interesting video. 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 mentions "many gods and many lords". It also says (AV) "but to us there is but one God, the father..." I do not believe the trinity in any form. I heard a prominent Baptist minister (Adrian Rogers) once say, "Try to explain the trinity and you will lose your mind." He was correct. The trinity is illogical and contradictory. It confuses people about who God is.
A golem spell is an animated, anthropomorphic being in Jewish folklore, which is created entirely from clay inanimate matter, usually clay or mud. That is how the bible book god did it . A magic spell
I find the comparison of religion to professional sports kind of interesting. Would guy friends probably still get together on a weekend and play in a back lot or an empty field? Probably. But there's tons of money to be made by big sports leagues. Where there's money, there's corrupt and unethical practices. It's not the sport's fault people suck
But it's DanMcL's fault to call the Broncos a football team. It's not. Real Madrid, Arsenal, Bayern München and Juventus are. There is only one sports called football and it's not American Handegg. (Warning: Poe's Law alert).
I agree the Bible does not outright deny the existence of other deity’s as being called “gods” however the biblical literature does make it clear that the God of Israel is unique in the sense that he alone is the true God. The biblical literature argues that other gods are false and are not on the same level as God (yhwh). 1 Corinthians 8:4: “Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that ‘an idol has no real existence,’ and that ‘there is no God but one.’” Deuteronomy 32:17: “They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.” This makes the case that the israelites and first century Jews did infact have a monotheistic framework, they believed there were infact other gods, but that those gods were not truly gods but nonexistent or less powerful spiritual beings. Furthermore on the topic of the trinity, you rely on the council of Nicea to support the claim: ‘at that moment christian’s believed in the trinity’. Infact no, the trinity was well articulated far before the council of Nicea. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD) Ephesians 18:2: “There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both from Mary and from God; first passible and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.” Justin Martyr(c. 100-165 AD) “For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.” Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD) “ Two persons are God, the Father and the Son, and, with the addition of the Holy Spirit, even Three” Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-235 AD) “For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One” Furthermore the Trinity is truly based on the Biblical texts, not as reading the trinity back into but as reading the biblical text to get the trinity, you imply the verbatim fallacy but regardless I’ll prove it. As we already established Israel believes in One Singular True God. This God is identified as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not as agents or images but as truly divine persons. Holy Spirit: 1 Corinthians 3:16: “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” Corinthians 2:11: “For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.” God the Son: John 1:1, 14:”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” This verse specifically highlights the eternal nature of the Son proving he is not simple and image of the Father but an eternal person Hebrews 1:8: “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever…’” Colossians 2:9: “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” God the Father: 1 John 5:20: “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” Isaiah 44:6: “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.’” John 17:3: “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Second Isaiah might have written verses that we as modern readers assume are referring to an established monotheism but this does not mean that he thought of it strictly that way, nor that the concept would be flipped on it's side to support a triune understanding of this monotheism. It's my understanding that many scholars (even Jewish ones) suspect that strict monotheism as a concept was not clearly defined during the writing of the old testament. This seems plausible in light of the idea that the Israelites were actually Canaanites and in the early years worshipped the Canaanite pantheon. Over time the distinguishing characteristic of the Israelites became that they refused to worship the other gods. Eventually this turned into the notion that all the other gods were not gods at all. I think Dan is referring to the idea that this concept of monotheism wasn't firmly established until much later than even the time of Christ. I've even heard speculation that the "Hebrew Bible" was edited in later years to firm up the idea of monotheism. We might not be reading the same Deuteronomy that the Jews in 100 BC were reading.
However, for what it's worth, the Gospel of John starts out by saying that the Word was God, and the Word became flesh. (Dan may have discussed this elsewhere.) But it's a huge stretch to conclude that the Holy Spirit is co-equal to the Father and the Son. More like an agent that is sent down to Earth to do stuff. You can even see it in the short shrift that the Holy Spirit gets in most Christian traditions, compared to God [sic] and Jesus. It seems that the simplest reason for the Doctrine of the Trinity, is that humans just have an esthetic attraction for things that come in threes.
I found your arguments valid. Dan are you a believer in any specific theology? Or are you waiting for messengers from the Father? Have you studied the theology in the Second Book of Commandments?
As much as I don't like speaking for others, Dan's religious beliefs are personal to him. I've never seen him answer these kinds of questions. His platform is about scholarship, not theology. All I know is that he is an active LDS member.
I have a question. While it is true that the Trinity is a post-biblical innovation, Jesus does say he is God, yet there is still separation between God and Christ as he asks God why he has forsaken him whilst on the cross. There's two right there. Jacob has wrestled with the Angel of the Lord (Holy Spirit) so, theoretically there is three there, but the Mishna has a very interesting take where if you are acting as the agent of another individual, you essentially act as if you are that person which is why the AotL alternates so much. Now, if we assume Trinitarianism isn't valid, then that doesn't necessarily disqualify Jesus to being an incarnation of God, as he is invested with all the authorities of Heaven and is effectively God on earth, bound up in a meatsuit. But if we assume Trinitarianism is real, there's also a different answer we could have, because Judaism likes to play the game of mincing about with the physical incarnation of God by using Metatron as a standin for God since he has his own lesser throne and has been invested with one or several of his names. Going by that particular law of the Mishna and assuming that this is true, the Father has never physically manifested on Earth save for the days of Eden, the Son and the Holy Spirit both have and wield his essence and authority as if they are the same being. Would this not validate the Trinity?
Why is that sad? They can believe whatever they want as long as they aren’t hurting other people. Let them have their hobby. It keeps them off the streets.
@@MarcosElMalo2 No, you’re wrong about this because they harm people with that doctrine. The trinity is a dogma in christianity and this is the main problem and sad thing. Those who don’t believe In that doctrine, they are going to hell. I’ve been in church for years, I know what I’m talking about.
There are three witnesess in heaven father, word and holy spirit. And these 3 r 1-John 5 Poor boy.U don't need to be sad about them. We are sad about u,
It is good to say "Thanks," but for what? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
It definitely didn't help in my case. Although the holy ghost part was even worse. Every explanation I got sounded like a bad Scooby Doo episode. Time to reveal who the holy ghost really is!_ Lifts sheet_ It's Jesus! But wait._ pulls Jesus mask off_ It was Adonai the whole time!
@@alexmcd378 Yeah, I'm sure that is really hard. I would recommend reading the book of Mormon. It changed my life. And very clearly shows you who the holy ghost is.
@@clearstonewindows it's a little late for that. I've since figured out that there are no gods. I didn't think Joseph Smith's fan fiction is likely to change that.
Sounds like you are talking about Jesus and the Holy Ghost being a kind of Avatar for God. With the talk of divine images and manifesting the deity's presence.
Which scriptures do trinitarians ignore? Do realize that the scriptural objections have been given for 1700 years so saying that one guy you encountered didn’t have an answer does not mean there has never been an answer
Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
No reply is 'honest', if it rejects the Trinity. That is how important it is. Even Dan's formulation based on images closely matches St. Basil's own description of 'consubstantial' Father and Son as *perfect* images of each other, unlike any worldly example of images.
@@SpectatorAlius The Trinity is false. It was never revealed by the God of the Bible. I am honest, and a truth seeker, I ask of the Lord to reveal all things revealed. He never revealed the Trinity.
It doesn't work. We all just pretend the Trinity makes any sense because they continue to assert it. 3 ≠ 1 It's that simple. You don't get to have your "God of logic and reason" because "look at the precision and organization in the universe" and then try to pull this paper towel math out where 1 roll is actually 3 rolls at the same time.
I agree you can't impose trinitarian assumptions when interpreting the Bible. You can only treat it as one later attempt among others to explain the Christ event. Seems that by the 1st cent the assumption among Jews is that only their God is real. By c. 60, christology developed that equated Jesus with Israel's God (Phil 2). Mark's gospel a few years later also has numerous such allusions. Doesn't mean they understood God as trinity, but some language in the NT seems to head in that direction. "Some" as in other language doesn't.
When Thomas said "My Lord and my God!" in John 20:28, was he saying that Jesus is Almighty God? A few verses later in John 20:31, it says, "These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the _Son of God."_ In John 20:17, just a few verses earlier, the resurrected Jesus told Mary, "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.'"
1 John 5:7-8 father son ghost is an admitted insertion by church fathers not found in original koine Greek new testament. Tertullian invented Trinity around 200ce only to reject it himself as idolatry. Erasmus and Luther refused to add 1 John 5:7-8 .
Yes that verse in particular is infact inserted, but this comes a lot later, our earliest known manuscript with this verse is in the 5th century, and only in latin manuscripts. This verse was not used to formulate the trinity as that doctrine was already in place much prior to the actual fabrication of the verse. The fact is we have major amount of pre nicea church fathers who make Jesus God. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus or Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Ignatious of Antioch, and this is without tertullian.
@@BuffAle Tertullian first to come up with " Trinity" though . All were rabid antisemites. Arius and Arians all destroyed by Roman church . Countless people were tortured burned alive for rejecting church creeds trinity etc.
@@MitzvosGolem1 That is a verbatim fallacy, just because earlier fathers didn't use the same term doesn't mean the concept didn't exist. In fact I gave you the fathers which explicitly did teach Christ divinity. And no Arius was not killed by the Roman church, he has gastrinal problems and died with his poop and stomach exploding, search it up.
@@MitzvosGolem1 That is the verbatim fallacy, just because the earlier church fathers didn't use the same term doesn't mean they didn't believe in the same concept. In fact some articulate it even more clearly, I gave you the church fathers go ahead and read them. And no Arius was not killed by the Roman Church, he was excommunicated and actually died to explosive poop.
@@BuffAle I'm impressed with your comment. It indicates to me that you are a truth seeker, no? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
I agree. Especially the explanation of the Holy Spirit. The Trinity just never made sense. God is one, but he's three, but one, but three, but one. Got it? The Trinity isn't in the Bible, but basically they say "If you read between the lines you can clearly see the Trinity is very real".
If the Trinity is not in the Bible, who are the persons mentioned in Mt 28:19 and how do you know they are not consubstantial with each other? Remember the verse: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them *in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit* .
@@SpectatorAlius Maybe you don't know this, but this passage has been altered by the church in the 2nd to 3rd century. Originally it was only in the name of Jesus and that's how the early Christians baptized.
Dan I appreciate so very much that you correctly use 'begs the question'
Indeed, it's a lost art.
@@ritawing1064 This begs the question of why.
@@stephenspackman5573 I understand that usage is now admitted.
You do realize that language changes over time, right? They just put Irregardless in the dictionary after all.
@@LittleBitofHopeToo2518 they never! What is the world coming to?
And they say atheism makes no sense.
Dan is a Mormon.
He's not an atheist.
I believe in God, just in case.
The guy making the video is a Christian
@@MarcosElMalo2 Just in case of what?
@@MarcosElMalo2 Pascal's Wager.
“If you eisegete our presuppositions then our dogma is obvious! Duh!”
-Christianity 101
It was exegesis. Dan acted like the Christain was not exegeting the text, so that he could accuse him of presuppositions, and pull a circular reasoning/eisegesis charge out of thin air. You notice how Dan says, "It doesn't say that Jesus was "fully" God," when the Christian brings up the Thomas interaction. He even puts up air quotes in the video. Exegesis, and quite frankly an iota of common sense would suggest that Thomas did not intend to say Jesus was 23.6% God. This is profound intellectual dishonesty and stupidity. How do you not notice that? Dan is a Mormon with a theological agenda, just like the people he criticizes.
@@jackricky5453 Typical Christian drivel. The Trinity didn’t exist in the first couple of centuries. It evolved and developed just like every doctrine did. Dan pointed this out but I guess you missed it.
@@magepunk2376 This just shows a strong ignorance of early Christianity. Paul is already using a triad formula in 2 Corinthians 13:14 by 55-57 AD which predates all the gospels. Matthew 28:19 which is written only decades after the events of Jesus, has Jesus himself using a triad formula for baptism elevating the Holy Spirit and the Son to the Father. If you're going to play the "but they didn't call it trinity yet game," I will play that game too and show you just how wrong you are.
Tertullian and Theophilus of Antioch are already using the word triad and trinity explicitly to talk about the Godhead, well within the second century. Which if you're not aware is not the "first couple centuries away" from the crucifixion. The second century starts 70 years later. These are just part of the very few surviving sources that still exist, no less, in a place where only about 3-5% of people can read and write, and most of them are not Christians.
@@jackricky5453 Here’s the thing though, none of the sources you mention had anything like the now “orthodox” doctrine of the trinity in mind. You are projecting that onto them to support your case.
@@magepunk2376 Really? Paul's letters aren't orthodox now? Matthew's gospel isn't orthodox? Please explain. Explain how I'm projecting the trinity onto their formulas. If you're going to accuse me, you might as well have evidence to back it up. You clearly have yet to read 1 Corinthian 8:6 and Philipians 2:6-1. You certainly haven't read 2 Corinthians 3:17. They could not be more obvious. Put them together and explain how they do not imply modern orthodoxy.
Who God is should be the most obvious thing in any religion. You would not need 200+ councils to force the Trinity.
lol a lot of theories getting stacked on each other.
Do you really imagine that there weren’t nerds in 4th Century CE?
on the topic of the trinity, you rely on the council of Nicea to support the claim: ‘at that moment christian’s believed in the trinity’. Infact no, the trinity was well articulated far before the council of Nicea. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD) Ephesians 18:2: “There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both from Mary and from God; first passible and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Justin Martyr(c. 100-165 AD)
“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.”
Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD)
“ Two persons are God, the Father and the Son, and, with the addition of the Holy Spirit, even Three”
Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-235 AD)
“For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One”
Furthermore the Trinity is truly based on the Biblical texts, not as reading the trinity back into but as reading the biblical text to get the trinity, you imply the verbatim fallacy but regardless I’ll prove it. As we already established Israel believes in One Singular True God. This God is identified as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not as agents or images but as truly divine persons.
Holy Spirit:
1 Corinthians 3:16: “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?”
Corinthians 2:11: “For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”
God the Son:
John 1:1, 14:”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” This verse specifically highlights the eternal nature of the Son proving he is not simple and image of the Father but an eternal person
Hebrews 1:8: “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever…’”
Colossians 2:9: “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”
God the Father:
1 John 5:20: “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
Isaiah 44:6: “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.’”
John 17:3: “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
There was only one that determined it…
@@TrentonErker It was progressive. Actually Nicean creed was not trinitarian, just mentioned the same essence of the son and the father.
Damn, RIP to Raiders fans lol
Minshew is a good backup QB. He helped the Colts go far with little last season.
@@randallpickering9944I'm a Raiders fan and boy this comment did not age well 😢
It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. ~ Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 22 August 1813
One sky fairy
The oneness and threeness are in different senses
@@Maximos384 I don't know what you are talking about
@@JohnLovell-q9p three persons one essence
I’ve seen countless times that people think the trinity is God is three persons and one person at the same time. The threeness is the persons. The oneness is the essence
@@Maximos384 I guess you don't really know. Do you. Did you get that off a HallMark greeting card?
... the way my computer screen manifests Dan McClellan's presence.
Internet, video, display device!! It's absolutely proved!
Thank you Dan! Your scholarship and integrity are most appreciated. ❤
You could read Deut. 6:4 as, "Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our god, Yahweh alone." That doesn't deny the existence of other gods.
The bible doesn't deny other Gods. There are many God's in the bible. But there is only one supreme God, especially in the Nt. The supreme God is the God of Jesus.
@@JopJio Actually, the supreme god is the god of the god of Jesus.
@@JopJiothe God(YHWH, The Father) of Jesus is the only TRUE God.
@@cc3775 I wouldnt say the father of the Nt is Yhwh of the torah.
@@cc3775 Actually, YHWH is the son of EL. He has 69 brothers.
Ahhh...reading the Shema in ENGLISH supports their evidence for the Trinity.
The holy language of God! According to those KJV-only buffoons anyway.
You are only allowed to read it in 1611 kjv english
@@Greyz174it’s an exact translation
Thanks again for helping to demystify Scripture from post biblical interpretations.
Be careful to sort orthodox theological reflection from the trash offered by johnnie-come-latelies who seem to have misses every memo of the last 1700 years.
I know right? Getting the Bible unacrambled so in general the "plain reading" is the intended one makes it so much more interesting
@@kyleepratt the bible is scrambled
His interpretations are way more post-Biblical than the ones he's criticizing.
@@ConsideringPhlebas Dan gets a lot,of things right but he, like the much less sophisticated and generally lamer Bart Ehrman, throws the baby out with the bath water. The fact is that theology has a strong relationship,to scripture but also to the oral tradition of worship out of which scripture comes. All ‘biblical scholars’ who do their study in stubborn refusal to look at traditional orthodox worship as the exegetical key are outside the mainstream and study under a feeble lamp.
Thank you, Dan, for properly using “beg the question.”
I legit thought during this video that I need to look up examples of begging vs raising the question. Cause I'm not sure I'd use either right 😅
He also says “eat their cake and have it, too.”
@@kyleepratt There’s a big shift, almost complete, in English usage, in the meaning of begging the question. When everyone always uses it wrong, the wrong meaning becomes right.
It's like using "it's" as a possessive. It's become the de facto standard.
@@kyleepratt That's ok. There is formal, and informal, older and modern usages of that phrase. Most likely you will get one of them.
@@roytee3127 Its is a possessive and that has not changed. It's is a contraction of It is. That also has not changed.
Get out the Venn diagrams! Christianity requires a lot of math.
Which is really hard for biblical literalists, since the Bible says pi is 3
Math that breaks the rules of thought. 😂
3x1=1 sounds like Terrence Howard math.
It’s not math for cryin out loud. You know this was already put to rest 1700 years ago.
3 beings are 3 Gods.
This particular doctrine tortured me for the entire length of my 25 year journey in Christianity. It just doesn't make sense.
Always love the correct use of “beg the question” ❤
Dan, I think you've really hit upon the concept of what I call "the puzzle ring god". I use puzzle rings as a metaphor for describing the Trinity: three rings which can be assembled into a single ring, or which can be taken apart to be three separate rings.
What I find puzzling about believing this is that although they can be assembled into a singular unit, the rings remain individuals. Why don't Christians add a fourth version of God and have them sing as a barbershop quartet?
The Blessed Virgin Mary? 🤔
That's hilarious, nice work.
Add a fifth ring and it can be the mental olympics.
This video explains the holy spirit better than years of Baptist exposure and straight up asking what the holy spirit was. It didn't help that they called it the holy ghost. The whole explanation wound up sounding like someone explaining a Scooby Doo episode they saw while high
Casper is the holy Spirit/Ghost
Just think of the Holy Spirit as Gods power
@@cc3775 better than my Sunday school did, but flawed still. That would still make the ghost subservient to God
References to three entities does not a Trinity make.
It would be the same as if I was to name myself, my mother, and my father. Are we now a holy trinity?
Actually, the trinity works really well if you change the central "God" and simply replace it with Godhead. This actually works really well with the name Elohim which is plural, but also singular. There are many words in English that are plural but also singular such as, team, group, committee, council, panel... In Genesis you will notice that when God speaks, the writer is careful to designate which of the Elohim is speaking. The English says Lord, but the Hebrew actually says Yeshua Elohim.
@@sotl97Nononononononono Elohim is ONLY PLURAL, and it won't work your way just because you want to play semantics like if you could cheat logic by being a sophist.
Stop it. You're wrong. Deal with it. Get educated, and stop apologetics
@@definitivamenteno-malo7919 that's literally what I said.
What? Three entities does not a Trinity make, again, what? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
You know, when I learned about divine epithets, I thought immediately about my Christian upbringing and how beautiful the idea was that humans, in their time of need, could invoke a specific framing of the nature of god and take comfort from that invocation.
Christianity could be a pretty cool religion if its practitioners would just collectively unclench their buttholes about it.
except there's that whole bible thing
Megan who has a podcast with Bart Ehrman listens to him crap all over the Bible but she's a Christian. One of my favorites flat earth debunkers criticizes the Bible and doesn't know if any of it is true and historical but he identified as a Christian as well. One of the books I read when I was leaving the JWs was a book by Leslie Wetherhead called The Christian Agnostic and it was about people who go to church but don't really care what the Bible says. The OP's point is a good one, get rid of literalists and there's some validity to Christianity being almost ok.
@@cygnustsp Bart Ehrman never "craps all over the Bible". Just like Dan, he makes a difference between what the Bible actually is and what people believe it or want it to be. He tears down this misconceptions, not "the Bible."
@@DoloresLehmann yeah you're right I was just using a euphemism
except there is that whole it's not real thing.
Isaiah 45:5
I am GOD and there is none else;Beside Me, there is no god.I engird you, though you have not known Me,
Who is speaking in Isaiah 45:5? Is it the Person of the Father or of the Son? Compare Isaiah 44:6-8 with 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, as Christ is our only Rock. Then consider, Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
I'm hoping that someday I will understand this concept, even if I reject it. I will keep watching your videos.
Wait, which concept? The trinity? Cause there's nothing to understand there, it's irrational. A post hoc rationalization meant to force existing Biblical texts into the framework of developing dogmas from the late 2nd century onwards.
Exactly - you don’t understand it because it’s nonsense. Being brought up evangelical I was told (when I asked) some variation of its complicated so just accept it and have faith (lest ye burn in hell for all eternity.) Translation - “I don’t get it either, but hell terrifies me.”
1=1/3. Or 1+1+1=1. Very easy to understand.
It's obviously false, of course. But easy to understand.
The one explanation that made a lot of sense to me was Inspiring Philosophies analogy to the fourth dimension. To me, that is a totally coherent and legitimate explanation of the trinity. However, I wholly agree with Dan that the trinity must be presupposed to read it into the Bible.
@@DreDre2001 I don't think dimensions affect quantities. It can affect our perception of them, tho, but a text inspired by God should ignore faulty perceptions and just describe the actual situation.
i love hearing "begs the question" used in the original sense.
We Are Not Viewing Dan
We Are Viewing An Image Of Dan
That Manifests The Spirit Of Dan
Thus Is The Logic Of Digital Images
Ceci n'est pas un Daniel.
Finally someone who knows what he's talking. All this time I thought the meaning of the text was saying that no other God exist beside me! Now through Dan I've come to learn that its means that no other God matter to you but me!
This is a totally different understanding than what Christian fundamentalist dogma teaches..
Now I understand that Church dogma is kept me these last 50 years in completely misunderstanding the text.
Thank you Dan for teaching me correctly thru your videos..
If it is a matter of algebra, they should end up with 100 Gods counting each one from Moses to judges to kings to angels.
Love this channel! Any book suggestions from you be be great or if you have a list of book recommendations so I can learn stuff like this. Thanks
it's like when someone goes through a tough time, and they see a beautiful rainbow, even though it was not particularly rainbow weather. And they say, "that's when I knew, I had to carry on. That rainbow? that rainbow was God telling me he was with me all the way..."
They don't actually mean the rainbow itself is fully God, but so is Jesus, or some shit.
Hell, it's exactly the language used with the dove and the holy spirit.
This idea of the divine image has remained in Christianity pretty strongly. The theology of icons as well as the idea of sacramental priesthoods really all ties into it.
@@Carblesnarky like has he not read St Basil? That’s a huge element of his Trinitarian thought and St Basil is one of the major “three persons one essence” figures.
It’s totally iconic. He complains about presuppositions as if he’s not himself reading a philosophical presupposition into the text. It’s impossible not to.
But although people in this thread do not notice, the notion of images is importnt to Trinity, too.
Writing to Ampihlochus, St. Basil tells us to imagine an image more perfect than any manmade or natural image: whatever happens to the one image happens to the other. Whatever is done by one is done by the other.
If this reminds you of the verses in John about the Son seeing what the Father does etc. you are beginning to understand.
NB this does not work so well with the Latin concept, which pushes the unity of the Trinity too far in front, so that it sounds like Sabelllianism
Did you have an NFL deconstruction in the early 00s?
It’s always funny to me how Dan puts the texts up directly in front of his face. It’s like he becomes the talking document.
I attended an in-depth seminar on the Trinity and left as confused as when I started. The concept struggles for the reasons you mentioned and is illogical.
Yeah weird math.
The Gethsemane scene certainly suggests that the One is subordinate to the Other...
Some problem verses for Mr. Red Pen:
Exodus 12:12 '...against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments--I am the LORD."
You can't say the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation shows only one God while choosing to ignore all the verses that clearly disagree with you.
Rev. 3:1, 4:5, and 5:6 all refer to the "seven spirits of God", which according to my math, puts us at a minimum of 9 person in the Godhead... Ugh. Maybe we got the Trinity math wrong and we should be teaching people about the Enneadity? It doesn't have quite the same ring to it, so we might need to workshop it a bit.
If we're sticking with Latin, we might want to try Novemity instead.
Bart Ehrman's book "How Jesus Became God" gives a good lawman's view of how early church fathers kludged together the trinity.
This reminds me of the Catholic priest who taught religious studies back in Jesuit highschool. At one point in class he mused that he did his thesis on the mysteries of the Trinity. His advisor called him into his office and broke down the exact trinitarian or Christological heresy found in every single paragraph and told him to rewrite everything.
I've always wanted to be the 616th like, although I've been blessed from down below to have been the 666th like before. 😂
The trinity is like the Spider-Man meme.
There are many spider-man memes. But we all know exactly what you are talking about.
@@mickeyrube6623
God: I’m God!
Jesus: no! I’m God!
Holy Spirit: what?! What about me?!
All three started argue.
@@mickeyrube6623 the best way to describe the trinity is Goku. At least Goku (God) doesn’t talk to his super saiyan form (Jesus) or his aura (Holy Spirit).
@@mooshei8165False and bad analogy.
Except the part of all being fiction😂
Something I remember from apologist literature is comparing the Trinity to the three stages of water. Water can be a solid, liquid, and gas, but all forms are still water.
Of course, the Trinity goes WAY deeper than that.
But water doesn't talk to ice or ask why ice has forsaken it. It doesn't work
That's a heresy and Jesus has a God, Christianity worships 3 beings. It cant even get the first commandment right.
That's modalism which is also considered a heresy. Many Christians will use that analogy but it was denounced heretical in the 400s.
more like the three stooges
more like the three stooges
A great explanation. Thank you Dan.
In reference to the Shema, another possible translation posed by academic translators is “YHWH is our god, YHWH alone”. I think this carries the idea pretty well since it still merits the idea of other deities.
2:15 That's kinda like saying that only Soundwave is superior and everything else is inferior.
5:10 Like how in ancient China, the Emperor's imperial edict is not the Emperor, but it carries the will and words of the Emperor and so seeing it and the one who bears it is akin to seeing the Emperor himself.
I love watching Dan dunk on the trinity lol
Me too
@@solidstorm6129 How is this for a dunk? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
There is technically one trinitarian formula in the New Testament: in John 1, we have Logos, Theos, and Zoe. Zoe is the name of Eve in the Septuagint. Plenty of mythology can be created or reinterpreted from the text.
Hi Dan. Can you share how you think this presupposition (the theological and philosophical innovations of the Trinity) arose? What precursor dogmas must be assumed to lead to this innovation? Is there a resource you can point to that explicates this? I did not see it expounded in your book. Thanks
Dan is too deeply in love with the "Holy Spiri as extension" error to admit his books are lacking in this regard.
A much better explanatin is in Kartashev The Ecumenical Councils or, if you can't find that in a language you read, try By Leo D. Davis - The First Seven Ecumenical Councils: Their History and Theology -- this is one of the few books in the West to make the important point that during those 3 centuries when Trinitarian language was being elaborated, the Fathers sometimes had to *change* the meanings of words to make them into effective tools for preaching the true dobma to recent converts.
I see a lot of error on both sides in this very forum, these errors resulting from forgetting the word 'consubstantial' had to be changed from the Gnostic and philosophical meanings of that word.
May the Pickle Jarz of Indoctrination be Broken
"I'm OK with it" - Elektra, regarding the death of Daredevil in the Void.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ thanks Dan!!!!
Love the DD Tee
Question: You've mentioned many times that the ancient gods in the OT era were tied to their respective lands and ethnic groups. Which makes a lot of sense. But there are some places in the OT where God expands beyond the given land and people groups, most notably IMO with Jonah attempting to convert or call to repentence Assyria at Nineveh. Given how much God seemed to dislike the Assyrians in the OT, why do you think God made this gesture instead of just destroying them like He had with other vexacious nations?
god didn't destroy anything. the book is fiction.
I would imagine that the Deuteronomist's changing of Hebrew texts during their creation of the Hebrew Canon plays a large part. It clearly says that the lands and its people shall be divided according to the Sons of God. And YHWH's portion is the stock of Jacob. Meaning at one point YHWH was not even the High of God. In fact, it tells us that El Elyon is the Most High. So I imagine a lot of texts we read about more widespread ventures of God might have been tales attributed to Elyon before the reign of Josiah. Because before then Polytheism was quite common in the Levant. I read most of the Torah post Genesis as YHWH. But it doesn't give enough direction afterward. Until you reach Deuteronomy 32. And it shows a clear separation between Elyon and YHWH and how the latter is subordinate to the other.
..... final thought....If Elyon was the High God of all peoples why would he need to war to obtain more followers? I don't think he would. But One minor God who only had one portion of the people would, in order to gain more power.
Careful. You just presupposed the existence of that god with that sentence structure. I know atheists can't excommunicate each other or anything, but your sincerity is up for question. But it's not like a nameless evangel-atheist is worried about being snubbed at MENSA parties, are you?
Years ago Jehovah's Witness Greg Stafford crushed James White in a Trinity debate. Greg isn't a JW anymore but retains a lot of their core doctrines.
A muslim here, so apologies if the question is a bit basic: If the Holy Spirit and Jesus is a manifestation of God, an extension of God that is not itself God, is that...arianism? Does the Bible have a stronger support for Arianism?
The short answer is yes. Arius's views are more in line with the New Testament authors than Trinitarian theology is.
@@TheFranchiseCA nope
Yeah nope. Like Dan says. Jesus makes a distinction from the Father. Arianism, in this case, would be like Buddhism, where One being shows himself in many forms.
On a faith side, I would recommend reading the book of Mormon, it changed my life.
@@toanoradian no the Bible is trinitarian
Ok, funny thought
Does this also apply to humans being made in the "image" of god? Or am I drawing a connection where there isn't one?
Thanks Dan...I agree. James White has always said I "Assume Unitarianism". I never understood that argument. If God has always been Unitarian until the Trinitarians came, aren't THEY assuming Trinitarianism?
Except that’s not even true lol
To which James White is Dan referring? Just want to get a clearer picture.
Sounds oddly Hindu to me. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are all fully gods, but aspects of One God Brahman at the same time
ikr, I thought the same thing.
This doesn’t prove that it was stolen from the Hindus nor does it make the doctrine not true
@@Maximos384 Exactly right! But it does prove one more thing: too many people even in the US know more about Hinduism than they do about Christianity!
Also the one God is the Father in 1 Corinthians 8:6, which excludes Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Then Jesus said the Father is the only true God in John 17:3 which excludes Jesus and the Holy Spirit; some trinitarians bring up 1 John 5:20 but it can be explained by saying that “he is the true god” is referring to the person that in the previous clause is referred to with the pronoun “his” (the Father). And lastly it says that God knows everything (1 John 3:19-20), but yet “only the Father” knows the hour in Mark 13:32. I can talk more about how Jesus is an intermediary (1 Timothy 2:5) but God is not an intermediary (Galatians 3:20). Some will dispute the last sentence but if only the humanity of Jesus were to be the intermediary, then the human side of Jesus cannot be considered to be God, and those who reject this would be believing in Nestorianism. So there’s no way that the Bible can promote the trinity
Read 1john 5:5
@@IAMJ1B 1 John 5:5 says that the one who overcomes the world is he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This doesn’t prove the trinity
I wonder if the 'there is no god beside me' is hinting at a denial of a consort?
Why is it every time someone says the trinity isn't in the Bible, someone assumes they were only saying that because the word "trinity" isn't?
Nobody's whole argument against the concept being in the Bible has ever been only that the word isn't.
The way that the guy with the hat is talking about God like he's just this cute thing that he just seems to somehow understand is really hard to take in. If you truly believed there was an immeasurable being with such insane grandiose power that he literally created time and space and gravity and atoms and things we could not even fathom in a million life times but isn't it cute that God is 3 people in one? 😂
Revelation 1:1 doesn't make much sense if you believe in a 1-in-3 Godhead
God told Jesus, Jesus told an Angel, and then that Angel told John of Patmos
What a celestial bureaucracy 😂
Would I be correct in calling Jesus & the Holy Spirit avatars of God?
What do you say about clement of alexandria and his letters discussing 3 in 1 he was a student of Paul for his framework
Can you recommend any books on the development of the trinity?
Hail Christ the King!
He's not saying Christ is not King. He's saying people are making up the trinity.
I would recommend reading the Book of Mormon. It changed my life.
@@clearstonewindows tell me what objections you have to the Trinity
@@jasehobson Because it's an Hellenistic view of god as "other"
Jesus Didn't want us to be "other" He wanted us to follow him and be like him and be perfect/whole like his father.
A god that is other has no purpose in the creation, It's just creating for entertainment or slaves. Both sound horrible.
@@clearstonewindows Yes we are supposed to be united to God, that is called Theosis (theosis doesn’t mean we become God or a god but that we are united to God), what does that have to do with the Trinity?
@@jasehobson Because that's weird too, and not in the bible. What does that mean? This "other" shape shifter absorbs us if he likes the way we entertain it?
The "other" is the weird part of the trinity. The shape shifting, the Why? It's all weird. and not in the bible.
Question: _How do we say The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost are three distinct beings but still just one God?_
Answer according to apologists: _Yes_
Ok, you know what a tesseract is? It’s a 3-dimensional project of a 4th dimensional object. If you were to push a fourth dimensional cube into a 3dimensional world, it would look like a tesseract to the inhabitants of that three dimensional world. It’s like an extrusion from another (or other) dimensions.
So, imagine that God is a big ball of play dough getting pushed from spiritual dimensions into our 3 earthly dimensions in three different places and in three different shapes. You may have seen those play dough toys that push the clay through in different shapes, so you have a round shaped bar, or a star shaped bar, or whatever. That’s just like the trinity, except God is being extruded into the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost shapes, not stars or squares or tesseracts. God is the play dough, the trinity is the shapes.
😅 I’m not a trinitarian, but this is the best visualization of the Trinity that I’ve been able to come up with.
they all "possess the divine nature" whatever that means
@@strangelaw6384 Question: What's the divine nature?
Answer: It's a thing possessed by god. It describes god's nature.
Question: So what is god's nature?
Answer: The father, the son and the holy ghost are distinct and yet one being.
(repeat as needed for just under 2k years)
Jesus sits in heaven next to God, so he is not "the God", if i sit next to Ronaldo, I am not Ronaldo. If I have a boss, I am not the supreme boss. Xtianity is a mess
Apologists don’t do theology, or even read it apparently.
No God has only one soul that soul in jesus in the father and in jesus. It is the same soul I am that, I am
Very interesting video. 1 Corinthians 8:5, 6 mentions "many gods and many lords". It also says (AV) "but to us there is but one God, the father..." I do not believe the trinity in any form. I heard a prominent Baptist minister (Adrian Rogers) once say, "Try to explain the trinity and you will lose your mind." He was correct. The trinity is illogical and contradictory. It confuses people about who God is.
A golem spell is an animated, anthropomorphic being in Jewish folklore, which is created entirely from clay inanimate matter, usually clay or mud. That is how the bible book god did it . A magic spell
I find the comparison of religion to professional sports kind of interesting.
Would guy friends probably still get together on a weekend and play in a back lot or an empty field? Probably.
But there's tons of money to be made by big sports leagues. Where there's money, there's corrupt and unethical practices.
It's not the sport's fault people suck
But it's DanMcL's fault to call the Broncos a football team. It's not. Real Madrid, Arsenal, Bayern München and Juventus are. There is only one sports called football and it's not American Handegg.
(Warning: Poe's Law alert).
I agree the Bible does not outright deny the existence of other deity’s as being called “gods” however the biblical literature does make it clear that the God of Israel is unique in the sense that he alone is the true God. The biblical literature argues that other gods are false and are not on the same level as God (yhwh). 1 Corinthians 8:4: “Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that ‘an idol has no real existence,’ and that ‘there is no God but one.’”
Deuteronomy 32:17: “They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.”
This makes the case that the israelites and first century Jews did infact have a monotheistic framework, they believed there were infact other gods, but that those gods were not truly gods but nonexistent or less powerful spiritual beings.
Furthermore on the topic of the trinity, you rely on the council of Nicea to support the claim: ‘at that moment christian’s believed in the trinity’. Infact no, the trinity was well articulated far before the council of Nicea. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-107 AD) Ephesians 18:2: “There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both from Mary and from God; first passible and then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Justin Martyr(c. 100-165 AD)
“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.”
Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD)
“ Two persons are God, the Father and the Son, and, with the addition of the Holy Spirit, even Three”
Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-235 AD)
“For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One”
Furthermore the Trinity is truly based on the Biblical texts, not as reading the trinity back into but as reading the biblical text to get the trinity, you imply the verbatim fallacy but regardless I’ll prove it. As we already established Israel believes in One Singular True God. This God is identified as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not as agents or images but as truly divine persons.
Holy Spirit:
1 Corinthians 3:16: “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?”
Corinthians 2:11: “For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”
God the Son:
John 1:1, 14:”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” This verse specifically highlights the eternal nature of the Son proving he is not simple and image of the Father but an eternal person
Hebrews 1:8: “But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever…’”
Colossians 2:9: “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”
God the Father:
1 John 5:20: “And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
Isaiah 44:6: “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.’”
John 17:3: “And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
Thank you.
Second Isaiah might have written verses that we as modern readers assume are referring to an established monotheism but this does not mean that he thought of it strictly that way, nor that the concept would be flipped on it's side to support a triune understanding of this monotheism. It's my understanding that many scholars (even Jewish ones) suspect that strict monotheism as a concept was not clearly defined during the writing of the old testament. This seems plausible in light of the idea that the Israelites were actually Canaanites and in the early years worshipped the Canaanite pantheon. Over time the distinguishing characteristic of the Israelites became that they refused to worship the other gods. Eventually this turned into the notion that all the other gods were not gods at all. I think Dan is referring to the idea that this concept of monotheism wasn't firmly established until much later than even the time of Christ. I've even heard speculation that the "Hebrew Bible" was edited in later years to firm up the idea of monotheism. We might not be reading the same Deuteronomy that the Jews in 100 BC were reading.
As a former Adventist I have to remind myself every time someone mentions James White, they probably aren’t talking about Ellen White’s husband.
However, for what it's worth, the Gospel of John starts out by saying that the Word was God, and the Word became flesh. (Dan may have discussed this elsewhere.)
But it's a huge stretch to conclude that the Holy Spirit is co-equal to the Father and the Son. More like an agent that is sent down to Earth to do stuff. You can even see it in the short shrift that the Holy Spirit gets in most Christian traditions, compared to God [sic] and Jesus.
It seems that the simplest reason for the Doctrine of the Trinity, is that humans just have an esthetic attraction for things that come in threes.
I found your arguments valid. Dan are you a believer in any specific theology? Or are you waiting for messengers from the Father? Have you studied the theology in the Second Book of Commandments?
As much as I don't like speaking for others, Dan's religious beliefs are personal to him. I've never seen him answer these kinds of questions.
His platform is about scholarship, not theology.
All I know is that he is an active LDS member.
I have a question. While it is true that the Trinity is a post-biblical innovation, Jesus does say he is God, yet there is still separation between God and Christ as he asks God why he has forsaken him whilst on the cross. There's two right there. Jacob has wrestled with the Angel of the Lord (Holy Spirit) so, theoretically there is three there, but the Mishna has a very interesting take where if you are acting as the agent of another individual, you essentially act as if you are that person which is why the AotL alternates so much. Now, if we assume Trinitarianism isn't valid, then that doesn't necessarily disqualify Jesus to being an incarnation of God, as he is invested with all the authorities of Heaven and is effectively God on earth, bound up in a meatsuit. But if we assume Trinitarianism is real, there's also a different answer we could have, because Judaism likes to play the game of mincing about with the physical incarnation of God by using Metatron as a standin for God since he has his own lesser throne and has been invested with one or several of his names. Going by that particular law of the Mishna and assuming that this is true, the Father has never physically manifested on Earth save for the days of Eden, the Son and the Holy Spirit both have and wield his essence and authority as if they are the same being. Would this not validate the Trinity?
YHWH is "the only god" in the same way that The Clash are "the only band that matters"
Heretic! It's Deep Purple Mark II.
Except the second part is true.
Well done, sir.
I don't think I've seen a worse case of arguing against a problem of your own making
Fn strong stuff!
Should have dropped a red pen in the mic-drop pose
The saddest things is that the majority of christians believe in the trinity doctrine, smh
meh they believe dumber things than that
Why is that sad? They can believe whatever they want as long as they aren’t hurting other people. Let them have their hobby. It keeps them off the streets.
Some form of trinity, yes.
@@MarcosElMalo2 No, you’re wrong about this because they harm people with that doctrine. The trinity is a dogma in christianity and this is the main problem and sad thing. Those who don’t believe In that doctrine, they are going to hell. I’ve been in church for years, I know what I’m talking about.
There are three witnesess in heaven father, word and holy spirit. And these 3 r 1-John 5
Poor boy.U don't need to be sad about them. We are sad about u,
The "king of logic" just got a big red pen F from Dan.
Thanks!
It is good to say "Thanks," but for what? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
The trinity is one of the main reasons people leave Christianity!
It definitely didn't help in my case. Although the holy ghost part was even worse. Every explanation I got sounded like a bad Scooby Doo episode. Time to reveal who the holy ghost really is!_ Lifts sheet_ It's Jesus! But wait._ pulls Jesus mask off_ It was Adonai the whole time!
@@alexmcd378 😂
@@alexmcd378 Yeah, I'm sure that is really hard. I would recommend reading the book of Mormon. It changed my life. And very clearly shows you who the holy ghost is.
@@clearstonewindows it's a little late for that. I've since figured out that there are no gods. I didn't think Joseph Smith's fan fiction is likely to change that.
@@alexmcd378 Not trying to be confrontational. But what do you believe now, How do you explain your will?
Have you read the book?
GOD Generator Operator Destroyer
Sounds like you are talking about Jesus and the Holy Ghost being a kind of Avatar for God. With the talk of divine images and manifesting the deity's presence.
Depends on which scriptures are cherry picked and/or ignored.
Which scriptures do trinitarians ignore? Do realize that the scriptural objections have been given for 1700 years so saying that one guy you encountered didn’t have an answer does not mean there has never been an answer
0:34 This gave me a good laugh. Bro really said Nicea created the Trinity🤥
He actually didn't. He said Nicea "and of later councils."
I thought Trinity came from the Matrix movies.
Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
No reply is 'honest', if it rejects the Trinity. That is how important it is.
Even Dan's formulation based on images closely matches St. Basil's own description of 'consubstantial' Father and Son as *perfect* images of each other, unlike any worldly example of images.
@@SpectatorAlius The Trinity is false. It was never revealed by the God of the Bible. I am honest, and a truth seeker, I ask of the Lord to reveal all things revealed. He never revealed the Trinity.
From a really average intelligent person: "Maybe we are being too literal in our interpretation of There is One God?"
That's just polytheism with extra steps
I'm allergic to algebra, of any kind.
Nuf Said!
It doesn't work. We all just pretend the Trinity makes any sense because they continue to assert it. 3 ≠ 1
It's that simple. You don't get to have your "God of logic and reason" because "look at the precision and organization in the universe" and then try to pull this paper towel math out where 1 roll is actually 3 rolls at the same time.
I agree you can't impose trinitarian assumptions when interpreting the Bible. You can only treat it as one later attempt among others to explain the Christ event. Seems that by the 1st cent the assumption among Jews is that only their God is real. By c. 60, christology developed that equated Jesus with Israel's God (Phil 2). Mark's gospel a few years later also has numerous such allusions. Doesn't mean they understood God as trinity, but some language in the NT seems to head in that direction. "Some" as in other language doesn't.
That sounds like Triune beings
What did Thomas mean by “My lord and my God” if he’s not referring to Jesus as God?
When Thomas said "My Lord and my God!" in John 20:28, was he saying that Jesus is Almighty God? A few verses later in John 20:31, it says, "These have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the _Son of God."_ In John 20:17, just a few verses earlier, the resurrected Jesus told Mary, "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.'"
@@jollyrancher521Jesus says son of God not God
Such profound argument. Never been addressed ever!
Hey Dan,
How do I buy a copy of your book? I know you have it free on line, But I like real books!
1 John 5:7-8 father son ghost is an admitted insertion by church fathers not found in original koine Greek new testament.
Tertullian invented Trinity around 200ce only to reject it himself as idolatry.
Erasmus and Luther refused to add 1 John 5:7-8 .
Yes that verse in particular is infact inserted, but this comes a lot later, our earliest known manuscript with this verse is in the 5th century, and only in latin manuscripts. This verse was not used to formulate the trinity as that doctrine was already in place much prior to the actual fabrication of the verse. The fact is we have major amount of pre nicea church fathers who make Jesus God.
Justin Martyr, Irenaeus or Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Ignatious of Antioch, and this is without tertullian.
@@BuffAle Tertullian first to come up with " Trinity" though .
All were rabid antisemites.
Arius and Arians all destroyed by Roman church .
Countless people were tortured burned alive for rejecting church creeds trinity etc.
@@MitzvosGolem1 That is a verbatim fallacy, just because earlier fathers didn't use the same term doesn't mean the concept didn't exist. In fact I gave you the fathers which explicitly did teach Christ divinity. And no Arius was not killed by the Roman church, he has gastrinal problems and died with his poop and stomach exploding, search it up.
@@MitzvosGolem1 That is the verbatim fallacy, just because the earlier church fathers didn't use the same term doesn't mean they didn't believe in the same concept. In fact some articulate it even more clearly, I gave you the church fathers go ahead and read them. And no Arius was not killed by the Roman Church, he was excommunicated and actually died to explosive poop.
@@BuffAle I'm impressed with your comment. It indicates to me that you are a truth seeker, no? Most Christians believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity, which is the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, the Triune God, one God (EL, or Eloah), and yet not three Gods (Elohim), one God. Christian Theologian Dr. James White states, “We hang a person’s very salvation upon the acceptance of the Doctrine… No one dares question the Trinity for fear of being branded a ‘heretic’… We must know, understand, and love the Trinity to be fully and completely Christian” (James White, The Forgotten Trinity, 1998, pp. 14-15). So far as understanding the Trinity, I find it impossible to fathom. Theologian Karl Rahner admits this, and I quote, “The dogma of the Trinity is an absolute mystery which we do not understand even after it has been revealed” (Karl Rahner, The Trinity, 1986, p. 50). Theologian Dr. Harold Brown concurs, and he writes, “It has proved impossible for Christians actually to understand the doctrine or to explain it in any comprehensive way. The doctrine of the Trinity…surpasses our human ability to understand and that must be respected as a divine mystery” (Harold Brown, Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church, 2003, p. 128). One’s belief in the Trinity is challenged, for the Trinity Doctrine is an absolute mystery, and mysterious in its origin and content. The Trinity is impossible for Christians to understand. The Trinity is unintelligible, misunderstood, and presents strange paradoxes. This Doctrine is widely disputed despite most Christians holding to it. A truth seeker may wonder how a doctrine like the Trinity comes from the God of the Bible who is not the author of confusion, as stated in 1 Corinthians 14:33. I give this quote, “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century but received wide currency [that is much discussion] and formal elucidation [that is clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (see Trinity, New Bible Dictionary, 1996). This is a problem for most Christians, who wonder, how such an important doctrine as the Trinity, when it comes to our salvation, not be known until the late 4th and 5th centuries. The Doctrine of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, and it is not taught by Christ or His disciples. In summation, I like to quote from one historian and one famous Reformer in Christianity. The historian H.G. Wells, states, “There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity-at any rate from him” (H.G. Wells, The Outline of History, 1920, Vol. 2, p. 499). Martin Luther stated in a recorded sermon, “It is indeed true that the name ‘Trinity’ is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man” (The Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, 1988, p. 406). Our Lord and Savior Christ did not teach the Doctrine of the Trinity nor His disciples. The doctrine of the Trinity developed gradually after the completion of the New Testament in the heat of controversy… The full-blown doctrine of the Trinity was spelled out in the fourth century at two great ecumenical (that is universal) councils: Council of Nicea in 325 c.e. and Constantinople in 381 c.e.. I, as a Christian, to give an honest assessment, must conclude that the Doctrine of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible, and despite this, the Doctrine of the Trinity is integral to Christianity despite not one proclamation from God giving the faithful, “Thus says the LORD, ‘I am the Triune God.’”
I agree. Especially the explanation of the Holy Spirit. The Trinity just never made sense. God is one, but he's three, but one, but three, but one. Got it?
The Trinity isn't in the Bible, but basically they say "If you read between the lines you can clearly see the Trinity is very real".
If the Trinity is not in the Bible, who are the persons mentioned in Mt 28:19 and how do you know they are not consubstantial with each other?
Remember the verse: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them *in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit* .
@@SpectatorAlius Maybe you don't know this, but this passage has been altered by the church in the 2nd to 3rd century. Originally it was only in the name of Jesus and that's how the early Christians baptized.