Would it be possible to put up the comparison numbers on your website as you review the bows and then update going forward? It’d be nice to see without having to go back to each video and make my own charts. If it’s too much of a hassle, no worries. I’m really enjoying the new way of you reviewing the bows and it’s perfectly OK for you to change the system midway through reviewing all the bows if it’s not making sense. Keep up the great work.
First off, that bow is sexy AF! I'm sold! Second, use percentages when calculating the numbers. For example. If the ATA is supposed to be 30 1/16" and it measured 30 1/8" then divide the manufacture's listed measurement by the actual measurement. So it would be 30.0625/30.125=99.8%. Then you can take the total value for that category times .998 and that would give you the score for that particular category. This will give more consistent numbers across different bows and take some of your bias out of the equation. I don't mind the bias because it's your review and I can throw out the parts that don't matter to me (some folks just want something to bitch about). This would also work for brace height, speed, etc. I'll gladly lend a hand developing a matrix if you like the idea and want to chat more about it.
I think the way you do these videos are awesome, and the way you break down the bows are simple enough for someone like myself to understand 😂👍keep the great content coming
Hey Josh! Love that you are doing the load off measurement! Our industry has long included measurements that are irrelevant to the user. We actually included a “string angle” measurement on the data card for all our new bows. We realize the industry is not doing this yet and there is not a standard way of measuring for it, but we thought we would not measure the whole acute angle of the string at full draw, but rather give the actual angle the archer will feel on their anchor. So basically half of the whole angle at full draw, 30” draw length. What are your thoughts on doing this? Also, you said we have nothing for timing adjustments on the bow. Technically, that is not correct. If the cables aren’t touching the cable stops exactly, simply move the cable stop that isn’t touching until it touches. Both cams will stop at the same time. So there is a timing feature. If you wanna geek out over the fine details, let me know, we can get lost in the weeds real fast ;)
I would love to see quality of the strings accounted for in one of the categories. If there's a bow that has low quality strings that should honestly be replaced, they should lose points, especially in the flagship price ranges. A 1200+ dollar bow should come with a high quality strings. Maybe that would land in the features section, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the stock strings on each of these bows.
Thank you for using the draw board. Let off adjustments and draw length modular cams, in my opinion, are causing more archers to shoot improper draw length and have form issues these days. I would love a video, no specific bow model, showing people how draw length and performance changes between the module positions and let off adjustments. Keep it up MFJJ!
Love the review. I think the decibel meter is to simple of a measuring device to accurately capture the sound of a bow. It isolates on the loudest sound and then displays that. How does it distinguish between the bow shot and the arrow impacting the target?
Great videos!! I do have a question though, wouldn't the speed increase with less letoff? So if you are testing these bows @ 80% and they test it @ 70% in factory, wouldn't the speed variance you are getting be accounted for?
Yes because the the difference for the highest let off to the lowest letoff is about 3/8” draw length. So to get the bow at 30” DL at high letoff vs low letoff you would need to rotate the mod further around the cam, which is gonna increase the speed. Probably 4-5 fps.
Mathews monsters had a yoke system first with the AVS cables and DYAD cams I do believe. But the cables didn't unwind when drawn just like the new mathews. Same premise on equalizing the load on the axle.
You commented that the “draw cycle” is pretty nice. What would be your perfect draw cycle? What 2022 or newer hunting bow has the best draw cycle in your opinion?
I think you need to do a “final release “ video where you go back through the evals when you have all the new biws and can shoot them together. Otherwise, i feel like it’s difficult to get a good comparison since you judge bow #1 based on “what?”. Where by the time you get to bow # 4 you are rating it with some bias of the first 3. I don’t even know if I’m making sense here
back in the 80s most of the steel cable bows tied off on both sides of the wheel and not the limbs. The wheel didnt take up or let out any. Alpine did have the take up/feed first back in the early 90s. Darton back around 2009 had the DS bows that had the yokes.
Got to say I believe this change will be an improvement regardless I personally enjoy your reviews an some people should just not speak on measuring they obviously don't have a clue
Check if the decibel meter is picking up the sound of the arrow hitting the target. Seems like all the bows are about the same in db Oh any why measure brace height at the hole instead of grip. That is where you are off by 3/8ths
Only curious.......should the bow be set to 70# (69.8-70.2#) before any of the measuring? Like ATA, Brace, etc...... If the bow is coming in hot, say 74# from factory, and you have to decrease that down to ±70#, won't that change those measurements? Maybe an ⅛" here, 1/16" there....... Or am I just over-thinking........
Bummed that the bow weight is more than the ethos with a shorter axle to axle and speed is the same with same or more reflex than the ethos. Wish they would’ve just put the RAC system on the Ethos and called it a day.
May have missed it but are you taking into account the length of the bow on those weight numbers? Just may opinion as well but don’t think it’s fair to penalize the bow on the weight numbers if the bow is weighing what it’s advertised at.
When measuring the speed of a bow, is there any value in rating a bow based on the consistency between the shots with the same arrow weight? Wouldn't consistency between shots indicate better design and build quality?
If the bows had been tuned ahead of time. Others tune get bullet holes ect before testing. So you get a bunch of same speed numbers and one plus or minus 1 ft out of 3 shots.
Elite measure there draw length at 80% letoff from what I remember witch wouldn't change the speed much but would probably put that bow spot on in draw length
Instead of measuring everything on the bow, shoot 100 arrows with every bow with same sights and rest and stabilizer at 50 to 80 yards and measure the groups and tell us how it feels and shoots.
Can’t really penalize them on honesty like that over speed because they technically didn’t fluff it. They say “ up to 340” so they didn’t set that speed in stone.
Can you just make a standard you loose this many points per 1/8 inch you are off or something instead of comparing year to year for brace heights, draw lengths, and atas
Come on now I think it’s fair to give them a closer score to darton. You can’t adjust the roller gaurd on darton and you can elite: they both have something the other doesn’t.
Ok, this might be a stupid question, but you don't know or learn of you don't ask. Just curious, if the bow was tuned, cam lean ,center shot, all the things you do, will the fps improve, because it is at the most efficient. Just curious about this. Newer to archery, and starting to work on my own equipment. Am I thinking too much into it or could that be a reason some of the bows don't reach their rated fps, besides some lying from the company.
@@douglasvaughn9530I disagree because weight should only be judged on how close it is to specified weight from the manufacturer. If you don’t like the weight, look at other bows.
Draw length and speed measured at 80% letoff. If you're not going to adjust the bow to the factory specs to check for honesty, then why do the test for a score. Just tell us how you feel and forget the rest.
That's why the score thing is stupid. Just give a review and tell us what you think. No way anyone should buy bows based on these scores. People need to go shoot the bows they are interested in and make their own decision. This scoring system is a joke at best.
Agreed. The darton consequence is a better value STILL! It just doesn't have as many features. And the consequence is shooting the same speeds with perf mods but with 7.5" BH.
Would it be possible to put up the comparison numbers on your website as you review the bows and then update going forward? It’d be nice to see without having to go back to each video and make my own charts. If it’s too much of a hassle, no worries. I’m really enjoying the new way of you reviewing the bows and it’s perfectly OK for you to change the system midway through reviewing all the bows if it’s not making sense. Keep up the great work.
I agree, that would be great!
Like an excel spreadsheet. That you pop up at the end of each video, comparing all of them.
As I opened this video I was thinking the exact same thing.
I think it would take away views from him so it wouldn't be a smart business decision.. But i do agree, it would be nice!
And here I thought I was the only one that couldn’t find the “final report card” that he commonly refers to but it can’t be found anywhere
First off, that bow is sexy AF! I'm sold! Second, use percentages when calculating the numbers. For example. If the ATA is supposed to be 30 1/16" and it measured 30 1/8" then divide the manufacture's listed measurement by the actual measurement. So it would be 30.0625/30.125=99.8%. Then you can take the total value for that category times .998 and that would give you the score for that particular category. This will give more consistent numbers across different bows and take some of your bias out of the equation. I don't mind the bias because it's your review and I can throw out the parts that don't matter to me (some folks just want something to bitch about). This would also work for brace height, speed, etc. I'll gladly lend a hand developing a matrix if you like the idea and want to chat more about it.
Axle to axle is plus or minus from the factory.
Right, and I thought of that after the fact but I was also basing this from Josh’s process.
I think the way you do these videos are awesome, and the way you break down the bows are simple enough for someone like myself to understand 😂👍keep the great content coming
Hey Josh! Love that you are doing the load off measurement! Our industry has long included measurements that are irrelevant to the user. We actually included a “string angle” measurement on the data card for all our new bows. We realize the industry is not doing this yet and there is not a standard way of measuring for it, but we thought we would not measure the whole acute angle of the string at full draw, but rather give the actual angle the archer will feel on their anchor. So basically half of the whole angle at full draw, 30” draw length. What are your thoughts on doing this? Also, you said we have nothing for timing adjustments on the bow. Technically, that is not correct. If the cables aren’t touching the cable stops exactly, simply move the cable stop that isn’t touching until it touches. Both cams will stop at the same time. So there is a timing feature. If you wanna geek out over the fine details, let me know, we can get lost in the weeds real fast ;)
I would love to see quality of the strings accounted for in one of the categories. If there's a bow that has low quality strings that should honestly be replaced, they should lose points, especially in the flagship price ranges. A 1200+ dollar bow should come with a high quality strings. Maybe that would land in the features section, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the stock strings on each of these bows.
Thank you for using the draw board. Let off adjustments and draw length modular cams, in my opinion, are causing more archers to shoot improper draw length and have form issues these days. I would love a video, no specific bow model, showing people how draw length and performance changes between the module positions and let off adjustments. Keep it up MFJJ!
thankful they added the pic rail
liking the adjusted numerical scoring system. the "honesty" category is a great thing. hold them accountable.
Love the review. I think the decibel meter is to simple of a measuring device to accurately capture the sound of a bow. It isolates on the loudest sound and then displays that. How does it distinguish between the bow shot and the arrow impacting the target?
Great videos!! I do have a question though, wouldn't the speed increase with less letoff? So if you are testing these bows @ 80% and they test it @ 70% in factory, wouldn't the speed variance you are getting be accounted for?
100%
Yes because the the difference for the highest let off to the lowest letoff is about 3/8” draw length. So to get the bow at 30” DL at high letoff vs low letoff you would need to rotate the mod further around the cam, which is gonna increase the speed. Probably 4-5 fps.
Mathews monsters had a yoke system first with the AVS cables and DYAD cams I do believe. But the cables didn't unwind when drawn just like the new mathews. Same premise on equalizing the load on the axle.
11:32 what was the load out length?
Great content as always. Lighting seemed a little better as well. Thanks!
You commented that the “draw cycle” is pretty nice. What would be your perfect draw cycle? What 2022 or newer hunting bow has the best draw cycle in your opinion?
I bought an elite terrain for my first bow . Still using
I think you need to do a “final release “ video where you go back through the evals when you have all the new biws and can shoot them together. Otherwise, i feel like it’s difficult to get a good comparison since you judge bow #1 based on “what?”. Where by the time you get to bow # 4 you are rating it with some bias of the first 3. I don’t even know if I’m making sense here
You need to go back and review the Elite Exalt 35 with the new scoring system AND w/performance mods
back in the 80s most of the steel cable bows tied off on both sides of the wheel and not the limbs. The wheel didnt take up or let out any. Alpine did have the take up/feed first back in the early 90s. Darton back around 2009 had the DS bows that had the yokes.
Axle to axle comment had me cracking up. “Soooooo, shut up”. Hahaha
Got to say I believe this change will be an improvement regardless I personally enjoy your reviews an some people should just not speak on measuring they obviously don't have a clue
Great breakdown.
Check if the decibel meter is picking up the sound of the arrow hitting the target. Seems like all the bows are about the same in db
Oh any why measure brace height at the hole instead of grip. That is where you are off by 3/8ths
I believe mfjj slammed several energy drinks before he filmed this. He's ramped up on this one.
Only curious.......should the bow be set to 70# (69.8-70.2#) before any of the measuring? Like ATA, Brace, etc...... If the bow is coming in hot, say 74# from factory, and you have to decrease that down to ±70#, won't that change those measurements? Maybe an ⅛" here, 1/16" there....... Or am I just over-thinking........
Bummed that the bow weight is more than the ethos with a shorter axle to axle and speed is the same with same or more reflex than the ethos. Wish they would’ve just put the RAC system on the Ethos and called it a day.
Really good point
I wish they made a carbon ethos
How’s that tight spot quiver attached to the bow behind your head? Looks good at balancing and reducing weight 7:41
My darton ds3800 had the split yokes, not sure that it was the first tho
May have missed it but are you taking into account the length of the bow on those weight numbers? Just may opinion as well but don’t think it’s fair to penalize the bow on the weight numbers if the bow is weighing what it’s advertised at.
not that it matters a whole lot but are you setting and testing all of these at 85% let off? or the factory 90
When measuring the speed of a bow, is there any value in rating a bow based on the consistency between the shots with the same arrow weight? Wouldn't consistency between shots indicate better design and build quality?
If the bows had been tuned ahead of time.
Others tune get bullet holes ect before testing.
So you get a bunch of same speed numbers and one plus or minus 1 ft out of 3 shots.
What was load out point measurement?
Darton archery would be the first with split yolks.
I think darton made it and has the patent for the yoke thing
I'm not confident but I think they bought it at some point from Martin. Or atleast an early version
@HawkeyeIK802 this is possible. I'm pretty sure all of Martin's old patents expired. The first I saw the yoke on a binary was darton.
Martin back in 1980 something.. firecat!
I think it was mathews when they came out with the halon
Elite measure there draw length at 80% letoff from what I remember witch wouldn't change the speed much but would probably put that bow spot on in draw length
Instead of measuring everything on the bow, shoot 100 arrows with every bow with same sights and rest and stabilizer at 50 to 80 yards and measure the groups and tell us how it feels and shoots.
I would say Darton or Martin
Darton used the yoke system first. Rex invented the system if im not mistaken
Can’t really penalize them on honesty like that over speed because they technically didn’t fluff it. They say “ up to 340” so they didn’t set that speed in stone.
Great review I’m let down by elite too heavy and speed numbers off
Like ti see the bow being shot.. instead of the arrow going through the chrono.
Sorry if I missed it, but did you shoot it with the performance mods or comfort mods?
He said performance
Can you just make a standard you loose this many points per 1/8 inch you are off or something instead of comparing year to year for brace heights, draw lengths, and atas
Does letoff make a difference with the speed?
Elite sends them from the factory set at 90%
Would it make a difference set at 80??
Higher letoff will result in lower speed.
How many people said your Stan clicker is what it sound gauge is reading 😂😅
Was it the Mathews Chill?
No
Martin
Come on now I think it’s fair to give them a closer score to darton. You can’t adjust the roller gaurd on darton and you can elite: they both have something the other doesn’t.
Ok, this might be a stupid question, but you don't know or learn of you don't ask. Just curious, if the bow was tuned, cam lean ,center shot, all the things you do, will the fps improve, because it is at the most efficient. Just curious about this. Newer to archery, and starting to work on my own equipment. Am I thinking too much into it or could that be a reason some of the bows don't reach their rated fps, besides some lying from the company.
Yes. Being set up properly will make it more efficient and a little faster
The weight score should factor in ATA. Not really fair to give a 33 ATA bow a worse score than a 29 ATA.
Exactly, he needs to change the score for weight based on ATA.
@@douglasvaughn9530I disagree because weight should only be judged on how close it is to specified weight from the manufacturer. If you don’t like the weight, look at other bows.
We need some new long draw bows for the sasquatches like me….
That did come out with a long draw bow this year that goes out to 32"
@@jackbuendgen389 I know, I just meant across all the brands. More selection. More technology.
Cam design is a Darton patent that expired this year.
Thought it was Matthew's was the first
They need to fire the dude coming up with these bow names
lol I like it, but my name is art
Dimension shouldn t be a numeric point IMO, price, speed, etc should be
I have a long draw length
Draw length and speed measured at 80% letoff. If you're not going to adjust the bow to the factory specs to check for honesty, then why do the test for a score. Just tell us how you feel and forget the rest.
Your so funny thanks for the laugh
No way this scores 4 points higher than the Mach 33 😂
He's not a fan of PSE it seems
That's why the score thing is stupid. Just give a review and tell us what you think. No way anyone should buy bows based on these scores. People need to go shoot the bows they are interested in and make their own decision. This scoring system is a joke at best.
@@douglasvaughn9530he literally tells everyone to go shoot them at a local shop and try them for yourself. Y’all keyboard warriors are ridiculous.
Mathew’s patten expired
I think $1300 is way too much! $900 tops
Agreed. The darton consequence is a better value STILL! It just doesn't have as many features.
And the consequence is shooting the same speeds with perf mods but with 7.5" BH.
Only does weight to give Mathews more points.
Not impressed with Elite’s bows so far 🙂↔️
MFJJ I think your being fare on how u r doing the test.U will always have haters in archery world