Don't forget I have a thing where you can vote your opinion and it would be great to see what the majority opinion actually is from higher numbers. Here: WANT TO VOTE? Go HERE: th-cam.com/channels/uuNmrkOEmTPnz4Dcc-Hi5w.htmlcommunity and if you can't actually vote there then thanks for at least trying... tell me if the TONEX 'changes everything' as they say?
Hypothetical thought - Now I own a Tone X, how do I hear it? (Headphones? Not gonna sound like a full stack!?) do I plug it into my $3000 Studio computer? AND $5000 monitors? Does it make sound? No? Hummm odd. So I plug it into a $50,000 PA at the gig? How do I practice? $2000 FRFR Cabinets? Oh just plug it into your $6000 Marshall plexi stack?! If so….why wouldn’t I just plug in directly and skip this nonsense?!? Everyone forgets you still need Power AND Speakers on top of the $400 pedal, but I digress. Please address this issue with your audience. Someone in the spotlight needs to point out this FACT. The TONE X Costs a lot MORE than just the hardware, let alone the super computer needed to run the Amplitube program, the DAW, and plug ins (NO FX) with out latency or at least LOW latency. This is a HUGE topic EVERYONE is skipping. #justsaying
Who realistically practices with a Marshal stack at home? I have no one in the house that would complain about doing that, but still I don’t. I practice what I’m not good at yet and therefore not something I would want to subject the rest of my household let alone neighborhood to. And these days I’ve yet to meet any band that isn’t practicing with a PA. Further, a $400 pedal and a couple of PA speakers(if you need to be stereo)will likely cost you about $1200 total. Compare that to a Marshal Half Stack which will cost you about $2000 ($4000 if you need to be stereo 😂)to get into the game with. Add the cost of Yamaha THR if you don’t want to get divorced. And lastly, if you were paying attention, the ToneX is a pedal. No computer necessary. Though a basic one will help make the library of amps easier to deal with. Obviously you have something that will suffice because you are typing here on TH-cam.
I’m going to try the Tonex through my Headrush monitor hope that sounds good. Yes synergy concept has been done before and I have a Randall RM 100, this seems cooler like you can have 2 modules with 2 channels and all of a sudden you have 4 channels of boutique pre amps that are designed with the corresponding companies . This seems like an upgrade from Egnator and Randall , and you can get this into a lighter weight rack . Worth looking into , no rush though. I’ll hear what it sounds like in a few weeks seeing steve Vai , he uses them , I would get different modules though.
Playing the guitar is not just about the sound, but also the pressure, the feeling. It's an emotional thing. If I have a small flat in the centre and I just can't put a proper machine in there, then profiling is great because at least I can enjoy the sound. I wouldn't be able to use a normal machine there anyway. But on stage I want a proper amp with an amp behind me, not some FRFR.
I might have agreed once, and it would still be my preference but I know a lot of seasoned pros who gig without amps and sound better than you and I put together. It's not because they don't like the tube sounds, they do, it's almost completely down to practicality.
They’re all tools. You can use several tools to get the job done. I just use whatever sounds/works best for the situation. I love tube amp, profilers and modellers. They’re all fun!
For recording, these modellers are brilliant. Having spent 40+ years as a guitarist trying to move from studio to studio, trying to recreate the sound I want to record in different rooms with a plethora of mics, I can now happily work away at home and send my parts to the producer with none of the hassle of the past. For live work, I'm happier with a few pedals and my Fender/Marshall Bluesbreaker combination but... getting older now, gigging is not as regular so generally the old monster tube amps are just sulking in the spare room. Amps, guitars, effects, modellers are, as you say, all tools for making music. Oh and the modeller I use? The humble Headrush MX5 with about 12 presets I use regularly. If it's good enough for the people I work with - including the BBC - then it is good enough for me. It's a brilliant, if confusing, time to play guitar and especially to be beginning as a guitarist. Although I do wonder whether part of the player I am, and many others from the 70s onwards, is down to the limitations we all faced before the massive leap forward in technology and cheap, but excellent guitars, amps, etc? There is a "tyranny of choice" out there, but thankfully it's all so bloody good, you can't go wrong whatever you buy. Anything's got to be better than a crap Avon Les Paul copy with egg slicer action and a bad transistor 50 watt amp from the local secondhand store that I started on lol :)
Nobody is saying amps are dead, some people are saying modeling is dead. Amp capture technology is rapidly evolving and getting closer to the real thing.
the only problem with the amp captute is that any time you try to modify captured amp with the "digital potentiometers" you are loosing completely the accuracy of the capture so it is actually pretty difficult to have the sound for every occasion - this is where modeling wins in my opinion
I don't think all the other instruments are obsolete, but I sure like being able to capture my hand-built boutique amps and get the same sound and feel in a little pedal that costs $400. "Real" amps are awesome but they are also expensive, heavy and they get banged up - keeping them in the studio is an amazing thing!
Well I can agree that it's interesting stuff, but hardly groundbreaking technology as I have been doing that since 2011 with a Kemper. Sadly though, I have not a single profiler or modeler that is creating the same feel of the tube amp in question. The tones are good, but just plug in a 1959HW Marshall and be in wonder... there really is little that is the same in comparison of any of them. Of course I would be 'thrown out' of the venue :) but that's another story. Thanks for the post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial The problem is, you have to crank up that Marshall to 'be in wonder'. Often times, for a lot of people, it's not an option, for many different reasons.
The topic of amp modelers versus actual tube amps isn’t so easy. In my humble opinion, I think the amp modelers have convenience and portability on their side. Obviously, someone who gigs regularly may consider that a terrific asset when trying to decide what to get. And yes, amp modeling and tone matching has come a long way over the years, so to be quite honest, the things sound not half bad! But…. (There’s always a but)! I myself own a Mesa Boogie JP2C, (with a Mesa Boogie Mark V before that) along with a pedalboard filled with all kinds of goodies. Maybe this is just silly, but when I plug into that amp and lock in my tone with the perfect effect for that moment, there’s nothing else quite like it. Sure, the amp modelers can give you all that too, but they can’t replicate the pride and passion I have for doing it all from the Mesa (and pedals) that I have working for me. The fine people at Mesa Boogie (and other amp companies) worked countless hours to get you the tones that give you goosebumps when you play! Playing out of a device that can copy something great is fine and all, but it just isn’t the same, and that’s all there is to it. Maybe I’m nuts (actually, I know I am), but that’s just how I feel. Is it a pain in the ass to carry all the stuff around (head, 2x12 cab, and pedalboard) when playing a show? Of course! But once I’m up and running, I couldn’t be happier, and wouldn’t trade it for the world. If I gigged regularly, perhaps I’d feel a different way, but I don’t. Just my thoughts. Take ‘em or leave em, but I’m with ya Tony. I hope the tube amps and companies that supply them stay around for quite some time. Cheers, and best to you and your family. Lenny Melzer
Lenny that's it - its all about the 'feel' (and of course the tone) but I do think the feel with a real amp is quite different. The digital stuff gets sort of near but lacks that feel and tends to remain 'digital' if you get me. The real amp when played through is very much more inspirational because of that mix of the two and there is no doubt in my mind that in my case at least the best results I can muster come from real tube amps turned up with a decent guitar. And here's a question... wem all logged those tube amps for years right? Are these new guys playing guitars whimps? :) (I can hear some now - 'I can't pick it up... booo hooo') just making people smile that's all! Thanks for the great post and for watching.
Opposite: more Tube Amps will be bought to be profiled When Kemper was being demo'd in 2011 it was directed at Studios to profile the amp tone the Artist got in case of much later overdubs were needed and the profile could be used by the Artist on Tour to reporduce their Amp tone saving freight costs. Same still applies but someone has to create the new Amp tone everyone wants
Interesting video. I’ve been using the AFXIII for several years now exclusively for recording into Pro Tools and I’m really happy with it. I’ve owned several different modelers over the years (not Kemper or HELIX) and I think I’ve found the perfect tool for me. I’ve also owned several amps over the years including both tube and solid state. I currently own a Marshall DSL20 head going into a 2x12. All have their place. I actually prefer the tone of the AXEFXIII over the recorded tone of the Marshall, based on my experience. I’m sure the TONEX will find its place too with some people.
Wow Tony spot on! People don’t stop to consider if there are no real amps around to sample, the sampling software will have nothing to feed off of. Unless in a bizarre twist of AI these machines start to cannibalize one another’s library of tones😮 lol.. I was using my laptop back in 2012 wwith an audio interface and an SM 57 with profiling software that was available back then, before the Kemper hardware really truly became a thing.
This is exactly my point... and Ha I really don't follow where it would end. No new amps, no speakers, no new pedals, nothing... its almost like sowing up your mouth and crawling up your own a****** :) eat yourself? weird... but I guess we live in a 'weird' world these days. I bought a Kemper just a month after launch and there was a real thing going on at that time for sure. There still is with some of them. But you know what, 'this changes everything' is a laughable joke that is repeated (or regurgitated) over and over through time and the current guys that favor the view often agree of the 'seachange' and how its the 'end of the world' which to be honest I doubt that change will 'change everything' as the guys financed to say that conclude. Great cmment and post and thanks... and for watching of course.
I totally feel your frustration. At last in my guitar playing journey, I’ve got a collection of three valve amps - A Fender Princeton 65, VOX AC15C1X, and a Marshall JTM Studio 20 watt combo. And now I feel like they’re becoming redundant with all the new tech. It pains me to have to now think of selling this gear on, to be in line with the ‘evolution’. Great channel, Tony, really like your content.
Thanks for the kind words. Don't sell the amps... you might well regret it later. I have seen, used and owned most simulators and while the 'fan boys' love them, ask the tube guys what they think and its a different story. The 'feel' is generally missing from the simulators. Nearest? probably Kemper. Look cool amps there too. :) Thanks for watching.
Really? Well of course that's OK but maybe some of it can be frustrating, especially when the software won't install on industry standard equipment... tube amps just don't have that problem...
@@johnb4024 I got that problem in a Vox right now, it only comes or shows up once the amp is well warmed up, someone told me when it comes to tap it with a pencil to find which one it is. And where to buy some NEW tubes??
When you mentioned the idea that the sound people are looking for are ampless. I think there’s more to think about there. Maybe that’s the biggest threat to tube amps; no one remembers or even experienced what they sound and feel like. Then the baseline becomes profilers or modelers. Anything that sounds different is different.
I agree. A few years back I bought a Marshall 1959HW (I had the originals back in early 70's) but until I actually plugged in that amp after very many years of not doing that - I had literally 'forgotten' just how that amp sounded and importantly 'felt'. It really sort of confirms what you said here, its hard to compare if you have NOT done that. I was amazed at how that amp sounds when you plug in and sound IS subjective, but I can say I have never found a single device whether modeler or profile that is 'the same' as that amp, plugged in with its 1960a speakers. I get it... simply because I DID go back and check that amp. I still own it. But when there are no new tube amp designs, no new speakers, no new pedals etc. then the crunch happens. Sadly.
It’s not going to be the death of modelers or amps in the next decade or so, but you can certainly see the trend if you look at a larger time frame. Many younger guitar players are not as convinced in the old school belief that classic tube amps just sound better than captures or digital modelers. I think that was the case 10-15 years ago, but the difference is getting smaller and smaller every few years. And younger players I speak to in our shop don’t hear enough of a tone difference to justify the huge price difference. More and more of them are going digital. Which is a big reason that tube amp sales have been flat while capture and modeler sales have been exploding. And that has been the case even while Axe effects, Kemper, QC, etc are still almost as expensive as a tube amp anyway. So I think the hype with the ToneX is that for the first time, you can get captures from tube amps in a device that costs 1/5th the price of those other devices. That has moved the needle a lot with a big portion of our younger guitar customers. It’s not going to change big budget musicians at all, but it does seem to be having an effect on more budget conscious young guitarists. So just keep an eye on it for the next 10 years or so as some of these young bands grow up and emerge, and then we will truly know how much impact this kind of tech really has on the old school brands.
Good points. Of course, there is no emphasis on what those tube companies might create. I doubt they will 'sit back' and just let others 'take' their tones that they have taken many years to make n the first place. Someone might/could gain with legal protection of those tones and what then? Good points and thanks for watching...
I think tonex, due it's price, will allow more people access to profiling. In near future nux, hotone, valeton, donner etc... will go to produsce their own profiler too. In my opinion cheaper tube amps will tend to disappear, while the higher end ones will still exist (as for painting/photography, film/digital photos). For me modeling has more prospects for improvement in the future than profiling, but requires much more investment in each individual amp, costs that companies do not have with profiling, where the work is done by the user. By the way Tonex software allowed me to find my next tube amp :) (Naturally using the models made by the same user of multiple amplifiers, I don't think it's useful to use models made by different people to make this choice)
I think that the tube amps will slowly disappear too. That was really the reason for this video... and thinking about the people that build those amps... Ha great point on the Tonex software and your amp choice :) and also check the Kemper player if you get a chance... very good tones. Thanks for watching BTW.
I wouldn’t fret (lol). This product just made stuff available to people that may have previously not been able to afford some of the equipment. Tube amps are great, Helix are awesome, Fractal, Neural, yadda yadda. This is a product for people like me that wanted a little more than what the Walrus ACS1 or the Strymon Iridium offer for our $$$. IK didn’t launch some preemptive strike or trash talk anyone or any company as far as I know. Unfortunately, I’m getting the same vibes as the in the car world. You got a bunch of folks driving their Porsche and Maserati stuff and hate that anybody found joy in something that they didn’t have to get a loan for. “You think they’re behind you but they’re ‘bout to lap you.” -J. Santana
You should buy a PRS MT15 (going on eBay for about $500 or less) and the sound I have to say is entirely real! Actually the reason I created the videos from here, is the INCREDIBLE amount of hype put behind this TONEX unit by YT reviewers - and sadly, generally they were given the units. The result? Huge and incredible hype of the product over and over ad infinitum. I tend to call those 'sales videos' and not actually proper reviews. Go and watch them and you'll hear the 'this changes everything' and 'modelers are dead' and a host of other diatribe that in reality is pretty meaningless. Honestly I don't think that sort of thing is helpful to people that want to see a product without the bias and hype - just the product... It's why I made the video review and later added this video to highlight what could happen (not particularly with the TONEX itself, but with that technology of profiling) and people could actually lose jobs. For me, that really is an underlying aspect of the technology that no one ever addressed anywhere. And YES! I get it re Porsche etc. as I have personal experience of that. Thanks for the post and for watching.
Modelers and profilers are great for Making recording easy and accessible. But some of the coolest recordings turn out great because of the limited gear. Turn the knobs on the guitar/amp, use the pickup selector. The more complicated the gear. The more time I take endlessly obsessing over tone. A real amp and cab/ some effects. It’s plug and play and I get to do what I love, play the damn guitar
Still nothing like the touch dynamics of a good, cranked, tube amp-speaker-guitar connection, not to mention the heady scent of hot cookin' power tubes in an old amp cabinet. 😁😁
I think amp modellers, etc. are very convenient and good to record in a DAW. No need to mess with micing up and all that. They are also good for bedroom players who can play thru headphones. The real tube amps are more for serious users and professional musicians and studios They all have their place
I agree, but I would not like to see amp makers, speaker makers and pedal makers all get closed down? That was the serious point behind the video - and the boys with 'this changes everything' are possibly (likely) wrong :) Thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Hey if solid state did not KILL the tube amp. what chance does Computer/solid state have?? What worrys me more is all this Silent Stage trend going on. no amps on stage, that is really ridiculous, the stage is not a STUDIO. WEIRD. And yet most drummers still prefer acoustic drums/cymbals.
Spot on, I use modellers as it suits my needs the best but there's a place for everything tube amps to axe fx to tonex. I'll never get guitarists who think every new product has killed everything else.
Scarily - there's already a free one! And 'that changes everything again'. :) Welcome to the merry go round. but don't forget the guys that lose their jobs because some device (or software) clones the amp tone that took years to create... its the one thing every one 'forgot' about. Thanks for the post and for watching...
Tony, A.I. is the future. We will eventually be at a place where a product in a way not far away from what Sound Hound does will analyse a guitar tone from an audio file and boom it will give you David Gilmour's tone from the comfortably numb solo. In the same way it will give you any classic or other guitar tone that you have ever heard. The amps will no longer be needed as their tones have already been recorded in countless recording studios. It is not a matter of if but of when. Will it happen in our life times? Your guess if as good as mine. Tonex is just the tip of a very large iceburg. But the future is coming and for me it cannot come soon enough!
I get that, but from what I see of A.I. the eventually might be further than some might think. I have been using A.I. daily for a number of months and the corrections and re-writing etc. not to mention the incorrect facts makes me think that's still a while off. The point still remains that those tones were CREATED by the amp makers and IMO it is even morally wrong (as if many care these days) to simply take them without thought of the originators that invented each and every amp. It does not make things right, just to take the tones, and ha I could even guess that maybe it would produce a very interesting court case... maker against tone 'cloner'. Unlikely I know, but never say never especially when peoples livelihood is at stake. What I would say is this... I have used these types of devices since 2011 and there are so many modelers, profilers etc. and after a while I do have to say that they (all of the digital devices I mention here) all tend to sound pretty much the same... a digital tone and without the feel of the real deal amps. It's just an opinion of course and thanks for the post because no one is wrong :) and thanks for watching.
The Tonex is ok. That’s as far as I am prepared to say after using one for the last few days. It doesn’t inspire me to go back to it though, in fact, I have decided to send mine back. A few reasons. Firstly, I a/b’d the Tonex against my Dream 65 pedal. Some of the tones were pretty close to be fair but the Tonex doesn’t have Dream’s reverb. The amp is called a Deluxe reverb for a reason, and UAD’s sounds awesome. Secondly, I ran a few pedals into both units. The Dream did remarkably well at keeping the feel, the Tonex just felt compressed, didn’t handle the dynamics of output volume changes from the pedals. Thirdly, I like to tweak on the fly when recording guitars but felt that the Tonex eq just wasn’t that great. More importantly, when changing the gain on the Dream you hear what you expect to hear, as you would with the amp. Changing the drive on the Tonex just doesn’t give you these subtle characteristics of the amp, and how could it? It doesn’t know what they are. If anything, I would say that amp profiling has had its day because this is what it is and always will be. Modelling software on the other hand will continue to get better and better. So, in summary, Tonex will get you some decent tones but it isn’t close to the complexity and just pure joy of a decent valve amp. I think the market for Tonex probably includes a fair few players who have never used a decent valve amp. For those that have, it ain’t even close.
Also, I have played guitar for 20 years, have owned tube amps, have toured w tube amps.. I am also an audio engineer and producer… have worked at big studios in L.A, so I feel like I can judge this and to me your last sentence is wrong. Tonex sounds amazing.. it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you.
I agree that the Dream 65 Pedal was great re the 'feel'. Something that many/most devices of digital nature simply don't extol. Recently I carried out a limited survey re Tube Amps and are they doomed so to speak. There were over 200 entries and the No they are king response was actually about 83% the rest falling back to digital in one way or another.
Hey Jiroe, Chris was making a point... which he is entitled to on my channel without being nasty to other visitors. Me? I like to see reasonable comments without personal criticism like "it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you" and honestly, for someone that has 'been around', and with your great ability, that sort of thing is not really befitting. It's OK to apologize to Chris if you want to and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial there’s nothing wrong w my comment, I did not insult, I did not use any swear word, if you want to read too much into it… go ahead. I said what I said. As a professional to me his response sounds like he doesn’t get the concept which I was taught from the very beginning: achieve any sound w anything you have in front of you. There’s nothing nasty about my comment. It would be nasty if I was insulting him or something like that.
You’re missing the point of the ToneX , yes sure people that don’t buy amps aren’t going to start anytime soon but those of us that do have the amps is I can clone my arsenal of amps and install them in a pedal that weighs 3 pounds , play my ToneX through the loop of my Boss GT1000 (my case) or Helix , HXStomp or HXFX , put my Boss effects in front and behind the ToneX for a light weight rig . I can’t carry my JVM410H as easily as I used to and this makes it easier to take my amps with me
There are many low cost and light tube amps around. The weight thing alone is not really the best of gain to apply I think. There are of course other advantages of profilers, modelers, and indeed tube amps. But personally I tend to grab a tube amp rather than faffing around with the software that does not (often) work. The Helix software is exceptional and so is Kemper's - and I own both. But like everything, we all follow what's best for ourselves really I think, and you touched on that really. For me the Tonex adds far too much 'baggage' when I can get the tones and feel I want in 30 seconds and at any settings... you'll know profilers operate effectively at the settings that were there when the capture was created. Not so with a tube amp. In any case, good post - appreciated, and thanks for watching.
One serious problem is: tube amps have gotten astronomically expensive over the years. For one reason on top of another, the price keeps going up. I bought an original USA-made Peavey 5150 back in the 90's from a local music store for $750. It was brand new. Today, an EVH Stealth 100watt costs $2,400 in the USA. And the damn thing is made in Mexico! Inflation is part of it, but not all of it. Guitar players are always looking for alternatives. The AxeFX-III is super expensive as well. And it's not even an "amp"! It won't drive a 4x12 cab. It's a "pre-amp". We need to start getting away from tubes. The Boss Katana Artist head is a great choice. I also like the Orange Super Crush 100. Leave the tube amps in the recording studios, and RENT them. If you just play at home... stay away from tube amps. Not worth it.
@@KaddysJamKave All tube amps fail. And when they do, you need to get them fixed. Also, tubes don't last forever. Do you have a good source to buy new tubes? And when you install those new tubes, you need to bias them. If you like fiddling with stuff and wasting your money, by all means, go buy used tube amps. It's the hobby within the hobby. I need to practice more, instead of tweaking settings or trying to get my tube amps fixed. Gear is not as important as the player.
@@TheCyberMantis Wow talk about a pessimistic view on reality. Most of your points are not true at all but it would be an awfully lengthy rebuttal that I can't be bothered writing... So you just do you... I have no interest in swaying another person's worldview.
@@TheCyberMantis ok mate... Whatever you say... I better ignore my 30 years of experience and listen to you. I'll sell all 12 of my tube amps right away...
I did see one other channel bring this question up. Unfortunately, I can't recall which. Here's the thing: true as it is, all it will take is for one generation to come up without the experience of having a tube amp pushing air for tube amps to disappear. Already at club shows, groups are using these modellers and profilers over actual amps. It's almost standard. There's numerous reasons - cost, chiefly - most young people can't afford an apartment, much less a tube amplifier. But also there's the question of storage. Plus, most bands don't play at the literal deafening levels we did, they don't need anything that powerful. Things change, not always for the better, but that doesn't stop it from happening
Not from what I see... and a tube amp can be bought these days for about £100 ($125) even that weighs less than your guitar. No effrect on tube amps... hmmm... there has been a tremendous slow down of new tube amp models being released in to the market currently make no mistake about that. And I can't buy Mesa amps here in the UK, Marshall are slow currently, and most brands equally slow. Is it the fault of gear like this? Maybe so or maybe not, but read all the posts and you will find that by far the majority remain firmly focussed on tube amps. I 'get it' for the post and thanks for that as it is a good contribution IMO and of course thanks for watching.
I think where this gets interesting is serious bands wanting to record with real amps but tour with modelers. They are easy to set up and less finicky than the rigs of old. Metallica, for example, uses AxeFX III now for live shows (as do a lot of other touring acts). They record with the Boogies but found the Fractals far easier for Road Life and you'd never know live. Now you compound this with hobbyists, like myself, using a fractal and not buying new amps (Although that is more due to keeping the wife happy). Demand will drop for $2k+ tube amps and some manufacturers will not survive. I still think there is a strong base for them but we will see the market retract overall for tube amps.
Interesting points of course. Bearing in mind it's 'unlikely' that Metallica do anything except walk on play and walk off is an interesting aspect that certainly does not see them arguing that the 'gear is too heavy - these darn tube amps have to go' sort of thing... yes maybe Metallica are less bothered about their live tones? or worse, are more bothered about their recordings and don't care about anything else? Ha the more I think of this its a VERY good question... Hey Mr Hetfield.. (I'll call him that just to be safe!) tell me the truth why you do it? Ha... I'm having fun of course... just joking around, but it IS an interesting point. Thanks for watching too...
I have tube amps, modelers, many pedals. I’m waiting for my Tonex pedal to come in. 150 amp captures at your feet. Looking forward to trying it out. It is great technology. I’m 61 years young. I don’t play in a band. Use what you want! It’s a great time to be a guitarist!!! Ok you have your beloved amp, cab, and fx. Hopefully you have people to help you move it around. You have to mic it up to play your gig or record it. The tonex pedal solves a lot of issues. Play any amp out there bye loading it on to your pedal via computer. Most people can’t even tell the difference if it’s a real amp or a capture. Especially in a mix most people don’t care as long as it sounds good!!! Isn’t that all that matters good tone. And having fun playing. Some people want to have a huge tube amp collection. Others want to have great tone!! There’s no right or wrong. I prefer to have all the choices I can!! I have thought about selling my amps! I don’t even use them anymore. But you always take a beating when you sell gear!!
You SHOULD check the Kemper player... it has 22000 profiles of amps that are very good. Build is excellent too... thanks for the info on your setup too and thanks for watching.
I agree with you. But I also believe that the tube amplifier is absolutely essential for a guitarist who wants to experiment with sounds. Profiling is done on real amplifiers. And a profile, at the moment, consists only of a "snapshot" of the amplifier with precise settings. All the infinite variables that can be extrapolated from an amplifier cannot be contained in a handful of profiles. However it is likely that the cost and convenience of digital will greatly reduce the purchase of tube amplifiers. It already happens. But what's the point for an amateur guitarist to buy a 5,000 euro Friedman if he then has neither the possibility nor the practical tools to exploit it? Who can push a 100 watt Plexi around the house and record with a microphone? Yes, we can use something like a Torpedo Captor and IRs, but how close do we get to digital sound? Is it worth spending so much money? Sure for some people yes, but for most? I will never part with my tube amps, in fact, I will continue to buy more and more. But I will profile them. Digital, as I see it, is a great tool. Unfortunately it will have its drawbacks in the market. We can't do anything about it
The digital connundrum is a sticky wicket currently. I have had many profiling bits of gear. I still never really get what the amp creates -although the 'this changes everything' brigade tell me otherwise. Like you, the amps are not going anywhere. I come from technology since 1981 and have seen many things, vapourware, promised upgrades, even pay now and we might ship someday, no software, you'll know what I mean. There's another aspect to the problem of digital profiling too. NO ONE EVER talks about it but I can and will in a video, but as a short intro, the particular chips used come and go. When those chips cease production - throw it in the trash - because there is no other solution. Ever. Tube amps can at least be 'resurected' one way or another... but not a peep out of those reviewers that are creating reviews for sales only. Sadly. Thanks for the post great points... and thanks for watching.
The thing I am watching is KEMPERS and Line 6 response both are different type one photo captures/profiles, and line 6 a modeller type. Obiviously the bigger assault is toward kemper, who has more or less sat still for more than 10 years, at a high price point. It will be interesting the next year at least. I think Tonex fell short not being able to have a unit with all the Amplitube 5 capabilities, no effects built in, no compatibility with Amplitube to the Tonex Pedal. So we will see.
I agree that Kemper device is old. The software they do update, but I remain concerned that a device at 12 years old is due an update of that there is no doubt and I have been expecting one for some time, but its all quiet on the western front so to speak. I found the support on the TONEX to be lacking and with the problems I encountered (some had them two years ago on same basic software) I was not convinced really. Thanks for thew info though and of course for watching.
To me, modelers are like sampling synths. Very convenient for live performance but doesn't have the mojo of the real thing. People tend to judge value based on cost. Tell me this. Each time a new modeler comes out, people say "It's so much better than it was before. You can't tell the difference." However, I don't hear them saying it's better than the amps that they model?
You raised agreat question for many 'new' things. For example, the Axe FX II was the best in the world and you won't need another one... type of mentality... then came Axe FX III which is 'better'. Does that mean that 'hey we sold you a load of cr** last time, but now we've fixed that - this is so much better'? Ha I laugh at most of the claims put out - Oh te old one was junk right? or was it? NOONE that sells the stuff (of almost any music gear) ever will answer those sort of questions of course... and you touched on it - a REALLY good post. Thanks for watching.
I want a cheap solution to have my plugin sounds on stage, this seems to be the only solution for that rn apart from playing with a computer, it s not about stealing a sound, it s about knowing what you want and being able to transport it anywhere
Currently I don't find ANY device that will transport 'your sound' (or indeed the feel of playing through a tube amp) available from any company, and there are far better ones out there than with the Tonex. Thanks for the post, I get your point of course. But the real reason for making it was to NEVER forget the people that lose their jobs through this recent technology, all to simulate real gear in what is not a perfect way. See, price drives everything right? That is one reason why there is so much gear made in the far east. Thanks for watching...
Missed your video's Tony. Hope your well mate. Straight to the point and I agree. I went 100% digital and never looked back. All the best from the Lake District 😊😊👍👍👍👍
:) I need to teach you... (NOT) :) and I trust that at least a few guys visited your free downloads for the stuff . Thanks for watching and the post...
What’s dead are taking Marshall stacks onstage. With the era of silent stages becoming the norm, regular amps are being forced out for some of us that play live.
But does the Tonex have that amp in the room feel ? Cause my FM3 does not , and does the Tonex present you a great sound quickly ? As my FM3 does not . I spend too much time messing with options and not playing .
I am using ToneX without cab into the effects return of a H&K 100w Solid State amp... With this setup, the feeling of real tube amp is spot on. On the other hand, if you hear through monitors/headphones using cab sims or IRs you will never get the "on the room" amp sound
Well Alex has said he can get the 'feel' from his digital gear. However, since 1009 I have only ever once achieved similarity to a real tube amp and never repeated it... and that was with the Helix first time use many years back. The tube amps win re the feel of the amp when playing and also getting great results in about 5 minutes - the software on some of the digital gear is bug ridden, lacks proper support and is cloud based which if the maker ceases the gear could be rendered useless. The tube amps have none of that in general. Just an opinion and its no more or less valid than others... and thanks for watching.
Tony, I have to disagree. I honestly thinks it changes the landscape, thats for sure, but does not replace valve amps. They are gonna replace the cheap crap that all these companies put out for loads of money like the Marshall MGs, the Line 6 spiders and so on. But, just like the Joyo Bantamps (amazing sounding amps and loud enough for 90% of the gigs out there), the Tiny Terrors and the Marshall DSL didnt ruing the whole premium valve amp market. They are not aimed at the same players. Touring musicians do like having the convenience of tone matching and carrying something that weights 500g and not 20kgs. Beginners like to have access to great sounds without breaking the bank (and they had it before the modelers with the plugins and scarlets 2i2, the irigs and bias fx). Still, you need the real ones to create new sounds, studio guys prefer having the real ones most of the time. In fact, I would argue they are good for business. Having a good sound inspire you to play, it makes you feel better because it sounds pleasant, that leads to practice, that leads to love for music and, ergo, fancy and overpriced guitar amps - which I own a couple, and a ToneX. Just like affordable and great guitars did not ruin the vintage guitars market, even though a lot of modern guitars do sound and intonate way better than older instruments, having great sounding affordable gear is not gonna take the big ones out of business, actually its gonna put more people in love with music, and guitars, and lead them down the rabbit hole. My students can all play with the toneX, its right here, it sounds great... but they always prefer the JVM410. Do they know how to twist the knobs, set the gain, or do they even get to play with anything past lvl 1 on the master? No. Yet, they still want it. Its not a rational thing, having a modeler is a practical solution for practical problems. It is good for people to have good tone at affordable prices, it is good for touring and not breaking your back. Still, we buy the fancy heads, the 412s, we have 5 or 6 amp heads and we still buy the 7th, 8th. We have loads of guitars and we buy more, that will be played once every blue moon, we have a drop tunning pedal, and we still have guitars in different tunings. We buy overdrive pedals just because they are red instead of green. So, dont worry, the amp market is safe, more than that, its gonna do great, there are a lot more guitar players and people exploring the guitar around than in the early 2000s. There are guitar brands, higher quality instruments, PRS SEs, Ibanez Genesis, and every other day a new guitar brand putting impressive stuff out. And people still buy their Gibson's (even when they have the same headstock problems since forever). Things are gonna be great.
You made some great points, and making a video like this has sort of stimulated the thinking of many (read the posts) including yourself I think - its exactly why I made it. It's not that it WILL happen, but there is a possibility because no one can truly read the future (think Mesa and Gibson as an example or Fender and Presonus) least of all me and you :). But didn't you notice something? Not a single reviewer mentioned that point about people losing jobs at all? Your points are all possible as are mine... but the lack of consideration by ANY of those so called reviewers really shows a lot of the reality of how it all works, and I guess when they get the item for promoting product then maybe there's something lacking re truth underlying the review. BTW the amp guys I have spoken with are very adamant that the tube amps will remain long term (based on a survey I'll be putting in a video) - the results are interesting and are based on real survey rather than anecdotal opinions that we can all create. I did do a few different surveys etc. too and that should be worth taking a look when I get the video on there. I'm on vacation currently. Thanks for the great post - appreciated and thanks for watching.
Just been having this conversation with my wife. But the flipside is that we have a depletion of raw resource. AI and tech in general will preserve the sounds and in the future, no doubt we will be making sims from sims, a bit like a star trek transporter. Henry Ford would probably have a few comments about electric cars! I'm in my 50s, been playing Orange and Marshalls since I was 14. It's sad to see so much history, science, manufacturing and technical skills being replaced. However, I've played the OR virtual amp in Tonex and it is every bit my old RV50MKI. There is a revolution and like it or not, we have to accept. Rather now than later before we run out of the raw materials and have nothing to play. I guess we are at the cusp of entering into a frenzy of tech development that is going to impact on every aspect of consumerism. Welcome to the future, but not necessarily the one we hoped for.
About ten years ago I created a comedy video (the Focknrollers) and we made some trailers. One was by (the guitarist Carlless Sultana) and he showed making a profile of a profiler :) you're not far off. :) Go on laugh... th-cam.com/video/caEhIa3D6kA/w-d-xo.html more at focknrollers.com Am I mad? Likely....
Great content Tony, and here's my take. I love pedals and enjoy integrating pedals and processors for fun. As long as you apply MOORE's law you can generally wait it out and save a great deal of money, and have the massive library of sounds from online content and updates. I don't have the time to chase every possible tone and combinations so I'll let the professional take that role and just enjoy playing. Keep the videos coming!
Yes that is often a convenience choice really. And I get that for sure. I even play around with the pedals and digital gear myself too. Thanks for watching...
I have a room full of tube amps..and I love them..but it occurred to me awhile back,that EVERY guitar tone we have ever heard,is NOT an amp in the room flapping your pants legs,it a mic’ed up amp/cab,in another room,monitored by FRFR speakers…It’s a different thing entirely than blasting a Marshall thru a 4x12 in the room…it’s that sound filtered thru a microphone…I think both have a place,and they always will….I use both,depending on what my needs are….
I agree there IS a place for both technologies (especially in the studio).
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I think this pedal is for live gigs where its very hard to carry a marshall fullstack. I'm a tube amp guy, but this pedal + good pedalboard does the job in live gigs or silent recording in apartment. Tube amps are unbeatable and these kind of units cannot replace the real deal amps :)
im sitting here watching this with my tonex pedal plugged in to my hx stomp and into studio monitors it sounds frickin awesome Tony !!! got a gig Saturday night will be using my 70's 50 what Marshall master volume which also sounds frickin awesome .!!!!.... proof modern and vintage gear can live side by side ... tell you what though Tony, wish modellers existing 40 years ago when I was learning how to play x
Well, I get what you're saying... but remember this - Marshall just 'sold'? I made this video a week before they said anything... but I don't 'blame' TONEX for that actually... more like Cov** is my opinion. But watch this space as to whose next, just trust me on this. And hey thanks for watching - its always appreciated.
People on TH-cam and on forums have said similar things when the Kemper first came out.. but like anything that has a legacy a lineage there's always people out there that want it and want to use it.. when I was 13 years old the first amplifier that I purchased was a mid-60s blackface Fender super Reverb and I got it used in 1978 for $300.. the only thing that didn't function on it was the Reverb and since it did not have a ground plug there were times when I got shocked using it but once you turned it up to about four and it started getting loud it started sounding really good.. I've seen the same amp online for around. $3000. And the Marshall jcm 800 50 watt head and cabinet that I bought brand new in 1984 for about $1100 is now about 4 to $5000 on the used Market.. so this old technology seems to have gone up a lot in value because there's always somebody that wants it and wants to play through it. But there is a great market for amp modelers because if you're playing a lot of live shows in different venues there's always a problem with consistency of sound with tube amplifiers.. and the main reasons are differences in electricity running to the amp changes in voltage from one venue to the other and the sensitivity of bias adjustments.. so one day the bias is this and the next day after the tube amp has been knocked around and pic😢ked up Etc the tone quality keeps changing and it gets frustrating.. solid state amplifiers and amp modelers tend to be a lot more consistent night after night so a lot of people like to tour with them.. the main game changer for something like the tonex is the affordability..
Indeed - I have owned a Kemper since January 2012... it remains even today a good product if a little geeky looking. The Kemper Player has 22000 profiles and I have to say its better than the Tonex in many ways... watch my review coming up... I like tube amps. They still bring something that these types of devices never really do deliver IMO, but I do use simulators also personally. Thanks for the post - always nice to read and see from viewers... and thanks for watching.
I got ToneX Max for 88€ from Thomann. It is very jammable thing but it takes a lot of effort to get there and there is also the great factor of luck just like with tube amps. But when there would be even one musical tube tone it would be OK! Luckily I found it. It is called Clean Grit. What you do is drive it with two different kinds of compressors and huge preamp boost and it starts to sing like anything I've heard before. So I take it is not meant to be used this way... What I will do is to build real tube preamp(16 tube matrix with effects loop for every tube joints) and feed it to ToneX cabs. ToneX is very good for tracking how cabs effect the tone. But when you try those bass amps you very soon find out the deeper truth.
100% agreed. I have a Headrush modeller and 3 tube amps and I still spend a lot more time playing my tube amps. As close as people say the modellers and profilers are to the real amps, I can hear a difference.
The real moment when everything changes will be when some AI creates a model from scratch that sounds and plays better than any actual amp. It may look at all of the tube models and create something that is tubier than an actual tube can be. The tones that are produced by a tube are limited by the physics of our universe. For instance, a model with moments of absolute silence between each note of a super chunky riff, while having sustain of biblical proportions with feedback that plays as if it is reading your mind. You are correct in saying that there needs to be a source for the AI to work with. However, Chat GPT can generate code to satisfy requirements given to it in plain English. But it is just leveraging code patterns that humans have written.
I love this bit " tubier than an actual tube can be" :) It reminds me about Fractal Audio and their Axe-FX V2 - they said in some European ads that basically you will never need anything else :) Ha then they released V3... I get your point... but I think way off in time. My own experience with Chat GPT is that it gets lots of things wrong, mixed in with some good info... when I use it for something I am very knowledgeable on, I see the errors and they stand out a mile. But good point and thanks for watching.
I ordered this pedal. But not to replace my amps. After all your review of the 5150iii 50w stealth helped convince me to buy it. I've played with a few modeling software captures and some cab IRs, but they're not the same as the heads and 2x12 in my garage. They are a lot easier to record with, for me and my budget. But I am also a drummer first and foremost and the guitarists who actually show up to studios and shows have tube amps, the home studio solo producers will be the ones exclusively playing modelers and profilers. You can't IR a 4x12 through headphones or monitor speakers and experience 4x12 tone. You can't capture the full range of an amp in a profile, just the range where it's knobs are profiled. But you can get a taste for yourself of what a Diezel VH4 or a vintage JMP can do dialed in which is pretty neat.
Yes I get what you're saying for sure. I do use digital technology sometimes myself too. I also like the amps because when I can crank them they do sound 'different' and 'feel' different to me. But great point and post and thanks for watching.
I figure Tonex is IKMultimedia's answer to the Positive Grid Spark line, trying to move the computer sims into a physical unit, but the 'modeler pedal' market is already saturated at every price point imaginable. So it might be popular for 5 minutes but then the next shiny will come along. Guitar gear is in it's 'Cambrian Explosion' stage, a zillion alternatives popping up and at the end of the day after all the competition settles out, only a few will be left. Not sure that tubes will be part of what remains, it's a narrow specialty and will only get more and more pricey.
I don’t think most people think that modellers and tube amps are the same things. They serve different purposes and have their respective strengths. The reality is that carrying big amps around is a pain in the ass and products like this fix that problem
Just trust me on this... many people think the simulators are the same or better than the real amps. I certainly am not one of them, and as you say there are differences for sure. Thanks for watching.
We're all being sold a bill of goods. Every day. I didn't even know about this bit of gear until you showed me. I don't have time to pay attention to all the crap on TH-cam that channels are trying to sell. I really believe that all the "newer gear" is trying to get in on what really sells. As far as Tube Amplifiers go. I don't expect to hear any at Live Shows in the future. Live shows have really become a joke if you ask me. And I'm not talking about a local band who is using what they have to produce music. I'm talking about mainstream music and the karaoke shows they give us these days. Used to say, put some ear plugs in. Now, each member of the audience is better off with their own personal set of headphones. I think every musician should use what makes them happy. But before they do that. They should actually find out what makes them happy, first. Not be told by some random paid promotion on TH-cam. Thanks for keeping it real, Tony! Rock on!
This point you raised is real. I have friends that gig, and most tell me these days are not what they were before 2020. Even Terry Marshall - in the interview I just recorded and posted said that he has had trouble re gigs etc. I think everyone has, and it has NOT come back as we know it. There is such a combination of things since 2020 that tear at most aspects of life IMO and many are unpalatable, but none the less real. The venues also suffered and are STILL suffering at least in the UK and likely USA too as there remains uncertainty in financials and all that other bad stuff currently. However, I really would not see major gigging musicians using a TONEX in some arena! My take on the 'buying public' is this - there are some top artists... then there are some studios, then some local pub bands etc. but the majority of equipment sales was and probably always will be Mr Joe Public - no matter what some might say, and that equipment really IS marketed to those customers. Why? Simply because they outnumber the 'Pro's' probably 100 to 1 or more. Remember the volume IMO is NOT the 'Pro' musicians, it's Mr. Joe Public and here I take a bow as being one of them :) basically its all consumer gear these days. Thanks @DetroitWrecker666 a very good point. And thanks for watching.
As an old school metal player, when I started playing as a teenager, it was always the dream to have a real tube amp, but who could afford that as a teenager? As an adult I’ve played/owned them for years. While I do use amp sims, & I do have an AxeFx 3, I also have an EVH 5150 III & a Marshall cab. To me they are great for different things. I love modeling/profiling for recording. I think IRs are one of the best things ever invented for recording! BUT…that is of a guitar amp sound that is mic’d up. That does not replace the amp in a room sound. I like them both for different reasons. I really like the sound of a real amp into a 4x12 cab when I just jam to have fun. I always do that for practice or just playing. I use the axefx 3 is what I use to record with, as a tool, but I have fun with my real amps. That’s kind of how it is for me
Great info and thanks for the post. I could guess we all do what we 'think' is best. I have lots of gear, but I do tend to stick with real amps and cabs for recording 'proper' stuff. I have had a Kemper since January 2012 or somewhere there and you know most digital stuff can sound OK to good, but I prefer the real amps - it sounds and 'feels' somehow different... there's little like a really good amp and decent speakers and the setup is pretty instant. But I guess its horses for courses :). Thanks for watching.
A few will still make the amps, but respectefuly we do not need more amps being built in mass, we just need people to profile what already exists In fact, I've created over 300 profiles with ToneX both with boutique real world gear and also with virtual amps - with IRs and simulations of IRs. Therefore a physical amp isn't even techincally needed for the "profile" tech in a pedal to be relevant. There are plenty of guitar amps out there for those that want them, a tube amp isn't something that just dies and goes into a landfill after 5 years. There is a reason why amps from the 60s (yes, SIXTY YEARS OLD) are still being used, bought, sold, and profiled. The tech is built to last. We just need a good "play back system" there is a reason why people playing tiny venues still use tube amps as the PA systems can be garbage. But if you step up to real venues - suddenly the sytem is good enough. The point about TONEX you are missing - is the tech is finally good enough and affordable enough that buying an amp instead doesn't make sense for the majority - people are playing at home where they can't crank a tube amp, actually care about their hearing, etc. The "capture tech" of 2010 didn't change everything becuase it cost $2K to get the device plus more money to get either the gear to profile or to buy other peoples gear. With ToneX, you don't even need the computer. A free version with a $100 interface and you have the same tone, it is crazy. And you spend $300-400 on the pedal you have something you can literally gig with or take to a recording studio. The days of 100 Watt amps are for the most part over except for a very small portion of players.
Tonex Is a no-brainer, especially for the gigging musician. Trust me the audience is not going to know if you used a $2000 amp or the Tonex pedal. If what you play sounds good that are all the people including myself care about. Loading and unloading big amps and cabinets is really no longer needed in this fast-growing rate of very high-quality technology in the world today.
You raise good points and thanks for the post. But its no longer 2010 and you can buy a great amp for £400 ($500) these days with lower outputs and control devices. And as you say, they will still be working very many years later. Whereas the 'trailing edge' chips involved in the digital equipment moves very fast. Expect obsolescence fast... taken over by others and then no repair parts. Since 2020 I have seen over and over devices that have chips forced upwards from say a $1 part by suppliers to a $10 part for the exact same chip... if you can even get it. Then there's the software... usually cloud based and with bugs - and not very good support (no one cares) and if a company goes bust... look for a trash bin for your shiny digital device. That's the reality today sadly. It's not that they sound particularly bad or anything like that, but these points are not anecdotal, I have seen them in reality personally and trust me, the maker CANNOT solve those issues. Lastly on those tube amps... there really is more than 'just' tone going on, the amp 'feels' different and can be far more inspiring than the digital equivalent IMO. Good post and thanks for watching.
I am about to buy a Tonex because I have 3 kids and money is tight. I would love to have 150 tube amps but I can't even afford one. I play at church and a tube amp in that setting is just too loud. What I see happening is the same thing I see happening with guitars. The tube amp makers will sell less and charge even more for what they do sell. These digital knockoffs will become what Squire is to Fender. People with deep pockets will continue to buy the real amps and the working class will go the cheaper digital route. I am old too and the thought of lugging a tube amp around and 4x12 cab doesn't interest me at all anymore. The major amp makers already see the writing on the wall and have started moving digital to keep the lower to mid-priced amps moving. Look at the Katana for instance. I have 2 of them I run in stereo and when talking to music stores they sell more katanas and sparks than anything now. Many of the music stores have stopped even stocking the tube amps except for the smaller affordable tube combos. Will real amps eventually make a comeback? Time will tell I guess but when I attend concerts for the last few years I see Helix and Axe FX on the floor more and more and rea amps less and less. The tones I hear out of the PA sound killer so I see why even artists with deep pockets want the simplicity and dependability of digital amps and effects. You are the first I have seen to look at the big picture and what this means for the music industry. Pandora's box has been opened and I don't see tube amps making a comeback anytime soon. Great video!
Great points... but I can buy a real tube amp for about $130.00 and as heavy as your lunch box? As for cabs, again not really necessary as there is other gear that you can use... all in all about total the same price as the Tonex. Let me ask you this, when your software stops working and cant work the Tonex any longer because some software company went bust, how will you use your Tonex? on the other hand, the amp will run for the rest of your life! Its a great question that no one ever seems to answer. Amps will reduce in numbers I agree. And you have some great points... but being dependent on some software company is not really a very good idea... Thanks for watching.
As long as modelers and profiles try to catch up with the tube sound, tube amps will be the reference. Profilers just creates snapshots, they might match the tone at a specific setting but apart from these settings, it is all generic....The most important fact is, tube amps aren't electronically perfect - all the non-linearities, parasite issues from components doing stuff they theoretically shouldn't do, contribute to tone a lot, so we use "perfect technology" to simulate non-linearities and parasite influences - I call guitar sound design an artform of failure, which makes it so difficult for digital designers to catrch up with their concepts to simulate analog behavior. If they fully understand the "artform of failure, they could possible use their skills to write algorithms that control these parasite side effects and this would result in sound design above traditional tube amps, but I doubt that any of these brands ever will get there , since most of them put their focus on *the artform of failure" aka understanding how to get even closer to detail with their algorithms so they can simulate the reality as close to reality as possible ;)
This tech improve and get better/cheaper all the time. At some point it hit a threshold were no one can tell the difference, but then will keep on getting cheaper. I have no problem with that, hell 90% of the tone is just the speaker and a few capacitor in the amp. You can make a solid state amp sound identical to a tube amp for fraction of the price if you put the same speaker on it.
I've just come back from the 2023 Dart Music Festival. Mainly an original music festival with a few "party/covers" bands for later in the evening on the main stage. The festival takes over Dartmouth and uses several venues. Over the three days I saw 20+ acts. I asked my non-musician wife which acts had the best guitar tones. She has no idea about the technology, just what sounds she could hear that she liked. This included one or two acts she didn't enjoy but thought the guitars sounded good. The amps behind the sounds she liked and noticed the best were... Tone King Imperial, Marshall 3-channel something-or--other, Vox AC30, Boss Cube. There was a great covers band kicking off the first day and "getting the event started". Their (excellent) guitarist was using a Kemper. Very flexible, but the requirement to sound like the recorded guitar sounds made it a bit sterile. There was also a young originals band who were very slick and tight. The bass player and rhythm guitarist were using Kempers. The lead guitarist was the Marshall user my wife noticed and liked. None of the acts I watched were using modellers. That surprised me. I made a point of walking to the stage front to look at peoples pedalboards. Almost all individual pedals, analogue or digital, but I didn't spot a digital MFX anywhere. I own a GT-1000 (I've owned several modellers, and this is my favourite so far) and it does the job in the right circumstances, but I don't enjoy using it and it doesn't inspire me when I sit down to noodle away or write something. That's when I turn on a valve amp. People who've never played a valve amp or learned to dial in their own tones won't be able to miss what they've never had. Ignorance is truly bliss.
You make a great point Tony. Here is what will happen, in 20 years the Tonex will be a piece of digital history that we will laugh at how primitive it was. The same way we look at the first Line 6 Pod. Lotsa nostalgia
Probably correct - it all moves on. Ha will we (well you might I'll probably be where its dark) be discussing the latest Marshall digital amp and mentioning that you liked plugin X and others liked plugin Y. And the wealthy guys loved the plugin with over 1m bits... :) Thanks for watching.
The capture tech being more prevalent is cool too see, it does not mean modelers are dead (profiles and models are not the same thing), people are never going to stop buying tube amps, people with money are most definitely not going to stop buying tube amps ever, This is just more of the same, but more is better so thumbs up to that. It's great, as the consumer, to have so many choices.
Well in a way I agree. The Tonex (no matter what some say) is really a consumer device aimed at the retail market and not at the professional musician. Good point. Thanks for watching.
To those who rejoice that tubes amps are dead with ToneX ... what the hell are you going to capture if they are gone... use the protuberance you have on your neck people? Also, on capture is 1 tone, not a whole amp. I see it to be very useful for touring and gigging, no hassle always getting the same tone and just eq for the room and that's it. For home practice and studio, I will keep my tube and solid state amps thank you and I will complement with pc plugins and modelers. It is safe to say the market will change, but unless people really are that stupid, and I don't think they are because they will still crave that actual hardware "I own it" feeling... guitar players are like that, gear craving hoarders and that is not changing any time soon :)
Ha I just read about 'hoarding' guitars... I guess it could be a similar thing... except of course someone will own the stuff, if you don't then someone will. So 'hoarding' is a rather strange way of describing things. I actually do use my amps - not by the hour of course, but amps (or guitars for that matter) that I don't like I always sell. Seems logical :) and I tend to agree that amps are necessary to capture them :)
Great video, I bought the ToneX and have had a number of other "amps" in a box of some type for decades. Why, I like trying new gear. Things to remember with a one of these 1. if you play metal you'll have a stronger positive opinion regarding these devices because the do the power cord tone ok, they do the stepdown tuning ok, and the detorted thing ok. Where there is a utter fail is with anything in a clean tone. UA 65 Dream pedal was close, but is only about 60% of the real tone. One thing that tube guys like myself have to realize is that "sim/ir's/apps players are going for a "recorded" tone from their guitar that they can repeat over and over with consistency. What you miss when you fully accept that "recorded" mono tone is that tube amps push the air, you can feel the sound, and some refer to it as the tubes "breathing". I have really tried giving this digital thing a good go, but man they really need to address the clean tones. Lastly, it may not happen today or tomorrow, but if you use software "ANYWHERE in the chain to drive tone at some point you WILL run into latency issues, you just will and btw debugging latency issues can really suck.
I forgot to mention, before I sell any real tube amps I plan on exploring the Synergy pre amps , if you haven’t looked into those already, check it out I have a feeling this will be more of a realistic substitution for tube amps . It’s expensive it will take awhile . If all you play is some genre of metal I think you can get by with the Kemper which you have .I will reply when I play around with the Tonex . Cheers !
You know what, those Synergy amps remind me of the Egnater stuff from many years ago... like the Randall Lynch amp (I owned one) and while the idea is a good one for me it all seems like for Synergy that its all been done before. I have a sneaky feeling that Bruce Egnater is hiding in there somewhere :) This is the Randall Lynch Amp I owned... was used by George Lynch in Birmingham England: th-cam.com/video/BeGn8rXrHqQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=negjUgH2-PgNvuKP and thanks for watching.
I consider buying a ToneX to capture my tube amps. No more lifting an AC30 around for gigs. In the Studio I'll prefer the "real deal", because the ToneX will only capture one specific setting at once. I can fiddle with the amp settings in the studio, and when I'm happy with it, I'll capture it to reproduce that specific sound live. Just get the best of both worlds, instead of continuing to break your back lifting these heavy amps.
We have 20 tube heads in our studios. We also have a Fractal Ax FX 3 and Helix. Every one of our 100’s of clients ends up recording their sound with a Marshall, Mesa, Vox etc and uses the Fractal as an effects rack. The feel of the analog tube amp is still king. We still play Gibson’s and Fender’s guitars even though it’s 70 year old tech. It’s about the feel…
Idk I find the Tonex very impressive in the studio. Give it a try… the amp profiles sound too close to the amps they are capturing, in some instances beating the Kemper
I agree the 'feel' really is different than the sims and modelers. And often its just quicker to get the tones you really want. Thanks for the post and for watching.
Oh well. So what about all those employees that lose their jobs? All end up with no income, all because some company came along and maybe (figuratively) stole the tone? There certainly is more to the situation than many think and its why I made the video to highlight this point. However, great for the post and for watching...
I would say this is a way to enjoy a lot of the amps/pedals that most people can not afford to buy. It surely will not put any Amp companies out of business in fact it will open the playing field for less fortunate folks like myself to test drive that one perfects Amp I want to buy but just can't afford it right now. It will help me narrow down wich Amp I'm going to save up for and buy next. Plus who wants to beat up a $3000.00 Amp while touring when it can stay at home while we use this new affordable pedal that takes less effort to lug around.
But (not sure if you know this) that those 'amps' and 'pedals' etc. are merely just one setting - even move ANY knob a hairs width and its no longer what you thought. That is one of the many problems. Just trust me, this will unlikely ever be like the real tube amps. I get the point and understand that it's all tempting and if it really all did do what is suggested then that could be seen as an advantage. Sadly its not the case, and even the unit I received had issues in installing and authorizing the Tonex on a windows 10 computer - something I found when researching went back to 2001 without a fix from what I saw. Depending on software is really a problem and not a benefit as @KaddysJamKave above suggests. I think he's right.
What for me is a far more pivotal point which very very few reviewers have mentioned is the fact that the business model means only being able to acccess what you pay for in terms of the number of amp and effects models - even though IM do provide access to a couple of included packs - so you are going to have to pony up for any specific models you need which are not included in those packs, making this potentially considerably more expensive than the starting price point. Personally I disagree with that entire pricing model. And in addition to this, the free software version of the Tonex technology which I downloaded onto my PC really wasn't at all convincing and seemed very limited. Based on what I was able to access I would never have any desire to try out either the Tonex or Tonex One pedals. Compare this with companies like Kemper or Axe-FX who include vast amounts of amp and FX models along with continuous updates and improvements for which no further charge is made. I know which business model I prefer.
Personally the TONEX did not really perform for me, with software problem dating back two years. I asked them but no real reply - why was I surprised. A 'cheap' product is exactly that. You do get the item, the software and bugs included and of course unlike Kemper and FA (well maybe, G66 support maybe but fractal supporting me I doubt that). In any case the lack of support is because of the cost involved. Then your scenario jumps in... now pay up or else. It's typical of many 'cheap' items these days. Great point you made and basically I agree. There is so much better for that extra bit of money I think. Thanks for that post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Thanks Tony. Nonetheless it must be said that the Tonex One would have been a really promising product which before cottoning on to the software financial model we discussed I was really quite excited about. In fact, it wasn’t before downloading the Windows and iOS versions of the trial software and seeing how limited it was that I realised that the Tonex One is likely to remain almost entirely dependent on its software, and that software certainly does not live up to the hype in all the TH-cam reviews I’ve watched. In a way I’m glad that I didn’t dive into that particular rabbit hole. By the way Tony, I wondered if you wouldn’t mind answering a question for me? Is it possible to run digital effects between a load box and the amp speaker, rather than from the line out? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, but my combo lacks an FX loop, so I’m just looking for ways to use time based effects without being affected by the overdriven signal going into the front end of the preamp.
Amp companies have been on a decline for years. Gibson buying Mesa, and now Marshall has been sold. Plugins, modellers, and captures are the reason for that. Only way they can survive is diversifying or innovating. Why buy a new amp (from most amp companies offerings) when many haven't changed their core product amps for years, and you can pick used up off Reverb or facebook marketplace for a fraction of the new price? Will that mean there will be no amps to capture? Nope, there are thousands of amps out there that will run for decades and cycle round the guitar community. I'm guessing there will also be some demand for new real amps, probably for longer than we all have left on this planet! I've slimmed my physical amp collection down to just one - I'm not alone! Are modellers dead? Nope, but I bet my house that most of the big players will release hybrid modeller/capture devices going forward. The only company so far to really do that is Neural DSP with the QC, but they've overpromised and underdelivered and thus left a bit of a stale taste for many. But you can only capture one 'snapshot' of an amps position at a time... True, but that will eventually change. Just like we've seen the recent 'Mikko 2' cab plugin, that manages and interpolates thousands of IR captures. We'll eventually see the same with capture technology. And let's face it, most real amps only have a few sweet spots in them anyway, so you really don't need to capture every setting. Pre and Post eq'ing and boosts can handle the rest! But captures don't sound or feel like a real amp... Us guitarists are stubborn buggers with major resistance to change, but reality is, some of them do. Pretty much anyone who's tried out the open source NAM capture plugin with a good snapshot will tell you that. And it will respond to volume and touch just the same as the real deal. The resulting null testing can prove the diffences are so small, your ears won't know the difference in a blind test. Many of us mistakenly listen with our eyes rather than our ears. I absolutely agree with your comment on this next one though... People really should take youtube reviewers claims & statements with a grain of salt. 99% overdramatize to boost their clicks and are essentially paid to advertise.
I don't believe that capturing 'the same old amps' would actually do anything for the profilers etc. in fact I think they too might then make way for some other idea. Who knows what. I agree that Neural did compromise their standing. The 'snapshot' is also a very valid point of course and its always been that way from what I see. You're pretty much right I think. For me, the 'faffing' around with some not very good software remains a feature that is best left alone, there IS good software too of course (check Kemper and Line6 Helix among others). Not a single channel raised the question about if you were employed at the tube amp factory or you made products specifically for that type of product, and so I decided to create the video just to remind people that it's not 'just' about profilers really, it has a far more important effect on the overall guitarist as they are today. I did carry out a survey of a few hundred people re tube amps... and the resounding total for them was around 82% with the rest being in favor of the other technologies really. Which was interesting. Great post and thanks for watching.
I would never spend $400 on any type of pedal . I don't care to lose my ass on something that won't last. And most modelers all use the same chips that others use. That to me is ridiculous . I bought a used Roland ( boss.).Gt 6, that does it all for $200. That was over 6 yrs.ago . Thanks Tony for showing us .
I think that tube amps will always have a place. Much like the folks who desire a turntable and high end hi-fi tube amps. If you have never had a tube amp and cab in a good room/space that you can rev it up, you may not understand "feel". Everyone talks tone, there is also a feel component to output section/cab and actually moving a large volume of air that puts lead in your pencil. IMO even the most die hard metal player, give him a Fender Twin in a large gymnasium and open that up, it will put a smile on his face. It is a great time to be a musician though, the tools we have at our disposal are mind blowing. Could you imagine teleporting to 1978 and handing EVH a HX Stomp?
What’s the difference between an amp modeler and that Tone X thing? That’s not an amp modeler? If not what is an amp modeler? And as far as when they say profiling an amp… you mean you could what record my Princeton or Deluxe Reverb or Hiwatt whatever and have it in one of these boxes? If that’s true does it matter what guitar you may use while recording the thing? Does it matter how driven it is etc? My knowledge of this stuff is I own a Tonemaster that I love and a Katanna that I wouldn’t give you a hundred dollars for. Anyway great channel man…
Good video. I think most of us can see that "infomercial guitar Twitter" has evolved to include the "buy my captures" guys. Not a bad thing really, but the level of hype is unwarranted. The value prop that the ToneX offers me is that I can walk away from my computer desk and practice in a different part of the house while keeping the tones I have been using with the ToneX software. I chose ToneX because it's affordable and offers me a chance to experience different types of tones. I work at my computer about 30 hours a week and am pretty sick of sitting here tbh. I have learnt though that in most cases a good headphone tone is "anything with a spot of stereo reverb". :)
Yes the marketing of spin offs is almost as irritating as the hype of the digital gear. I'm sure there are guys, and like yourself, they can work with the technology - and thats good, whatever works, and the comment about the reverb has so much truth in it from the digital stuff I have seen over the years that without reverb (or any of the other very highly level applied effects) on the presets the stuff would sound rather less inviting. Yes I get sick of the screen (I do also at least 30 hours at work with one) and that's without the YT stuff... love the handle too :) Thanks fr watching...
Can the Kemper and Axe-FX do what they do for a fraction of the price they currently sell for now? No ... and that is why the ToneX will force them re-invent their products. They won't go away, but they will have to re-invent themselves and come out with new products that come in at a lower price point. Who wants to pay a higher price for processing in a proprietary box like the Kemper and Axe-FX, when we can do that processing in the computer? I'm a ToneX boy and I love it ... I love it so much that I sold my Kemper simply because I don't need it any longer.
Careful... there are many that want to use the Kemper and Axe-FX at any price. I'm not particularly one of them, but its wrong to assume no one buys them... they do. Like most digital solutions they tend to have some issues, notwithstanding in the case of Tonex, if that company ceased to be - then the unit might not be so palatable when it stops working. Kemper and the others won't stand still, and when they do move it forward I'm sure that it might well be improvement over Tonex, at the very least re the software that failed to install on Win 10 that I experienced. Good points in your post though and thanks for watching.
The only difference between the Tonex and the QC or Kemper is that they made it so you can separate the capture from the usage and performance, so you can travel with it more easily and you use your computer for the processing part of the capture rather than the device itself. In reality this video is 5 years late.
Ha fair enough I guess. The other difference I found was that Kempers software is worlds apart - it works! whereas the IK Multimedia was a bag of er... sh you know what. Thanks for watching.
Tonex, or any other new modelling or capture technology, will not make the tube amps go away. But amps are expensive, they take up lots of room, they're loud, and they're expensive to maintain. I love the idea of a great example of a plexi or a deluxe with some really good pedals. But, it also feels a bit elitist to have an attitude where good tone has to come from some combination of expensive gear. Tonex, or a hx stomp, or an audio interface, paired with studio monitors or some headphones is more affordable for many people, and opens up lots more music-making opportunities than a more traditional rig. The Neural Amp Modeller plugin by Steve Atkinson actually offers capture tech for free. I love amps, but I also like democratising the music-making process.
It's not really 'elitist' - it all comes from the raw material (generally labor in the UK at the least and similarly in the USA) of man hours that contribute to the costs accordingly. And even as I write the cost of 'gas' here in the UK is about $8.24 and yes you DID read that right. The electricity and heating gas is also horrendous. Of course many blame outside elements, when in reality they are typically 'rubbing their hands' for the next cold spot, or day when everyone actually comes to work! The UK and USA are generally IMO subject to cost increases of (in particular) electronic components, trailing edge and leading edge components and variable supplies from some countries that themselves are variable in output. Make no mistake, it all adds up to higher prices for WHATEVER it is you might want to buy. So the 'cheap' solutions might well not remain 'cheap' for long. The post offered a good point of course, but from my personal experience with tech since 1981 and how everything changed dramatically since 2020 I don't see long term supply with cheap components being an option. Thanks for the post appreciated and thanks for watching.
Love your channel, lots of knowledgeable info. BTW have you heard if Messa Boogie will be making amps for Europe any time soon? As you are in the know as they say
Sincerely I wish I was in the know about Mesa Boogie. I have no real info. In fact so bad that recently on vacation I 'found' a couple of Mesa pedals :) Can't find them here in the UK. Honestly its currently dead re Mesa. I wish they were here. Thanks for watching.
I'd be interested to know how many £2000 AxeFX rigs and Kempers are polished and admired each day, never to leave the house and will certainly never see any live action! In truth many full time working musicians can't afford all that stuff, especially these days when promoters expect bands to play for peanuts. It's both ironic and incredibly sad how all those rack-mounted, rack-cased, roadworthy modellers are owned by hobbyists to be played in their bedrooms 😔
Sign of the times its sad to say. Most will tell you it's all good now after 2020 but in reality? That would be far from the truth IMO. Thanks for watching.
Some will never compromise their belief in analog recording, vinyl, true tube amplification, the like.....interesting concern and one I had a couple weeks ago while I wait for my Tone-X to arrive:) Great video, Tony!
Yes you're right I get it. Sometimes different guys tell me about X or Y (whatever and sound related) and often the differences are genuinely small, but other times they are clearly different - analogue to digital is one of them. I do remain a 'believer' in tube amps for sure as the 'feel' is very different to that of emulations, simulations or plainly captures of one tone from an amp that can give thousands. But I still have a need for some of the other platforms as and when I use them. But as a regular choice my first is tube. Thanks for the post and for watching.
I don't think amp modelers will ever put tube amp manufacturers out of business. What will hurt the tube amp manufacturers the most is availability of the tubes they have designed into their amps to get their particular sound. The tube design and the way they are design into and used by the circuits is what gives these tube amps their signature sound. When the manufacturers of the specific tubes that go into these tube amps go out of business, like a couple have already in Germany, that is what will cause tube amp manufactures to start to have problems and could cause them to close their doors just because of the unavailability of components of their amp's designs. The BS we are seeing from the Central Bank System in this world is what is causing the economic problems for these company's and all other companies in the world. So, let's put the blame for any of these company's going out of business where it truly belongs, on the buttheads that think they can control the world and us with their false and inflated monetary systems. The only thing that amp profilers do is create healthy competition between manufactures to build a better mouse trap to sell to the consumer. Competition is good and beneficial to the consumer in any market.
It's a good point re Tubes (or valves as they say in the UK). But there's far more to it in my experience. Even to the plywood they use at Marshall amps! The lead guy said that they had trouble sourcing the really good plywood that they are known for using these days in the cabinets - he said there were issues with poor quality coming through that they were stopping and it had been solved recently. But in my own experience the electronic components remain a real pain for most manufacturers - its not 'just' tubes. I'm not entirely sure that it's just central banks or the other stuff that could be blamed though. Marshall Group (after the sale to a partner company) is worth $350 Million so its not a money shortage problem really. Remember that profilers have been around for at least 11 years (I bought my Kemper in 2011) and the modelers even longer. I can agree with you on the 'control' aspect, I won't post what I might think on all of that - ha some might not like it ;-) I do think you have considered what I said and made a good reply, whereas some guys don't 'get it' about the point I raised. But I can tell you that in manufacturing particularly of components and 'chips' etc. it all remains hard work really. Thanks for a good post and for watching too.
Love it when people ask me ‘why don’t you buy a helix?’ While looking at my big sky, timeline and iridium on my Pedalboard. ‘Oh, it’s the new thing. Everyone has it!’ 🙄🙄🙄 Like other people pointed out here, it’s not just about the gear. Tone comes from the fingers first. Gear is rather secondary. That’s why a good guitarist sounds amazing even on a cheap squire and a cheap amp. Thanks for this video! Maybe an eye opener for those fanboys out there.
I don't understand videos such as this. it's not a f***ing sportsball competition, LOL. Use whatever works best for you and your budget. The Tonex is great - way better than Kemper (which I've also owned and sold) and better than the vast majority of VST amp sims. By the way. I bought a new tube amp a couple weeks after getting a Tonex - they have different applications for me (the tube amp for playing live, the Tonex for silent recording in my small home studio).
That's OK Christopher - but there really IS a reason that I created the video. It relates to people losing jobs. Have another look carefully and you'll get the reason I created it. You see, Christopher, I think much wider than the every day reviewer and yes I do create video content that IS meaningful if you just follow it all through. In my opinion people losing jobs because of copying of other companies work is not really that good is it? Maybe you disagree or just did not follow my points... but the clue relate to the last points in this video as being the real reason for concern of peoples livelihoods. Thanks.
Tony love ya from Canada.. This Tonex I believe is the tip of the iceberg of whats to come.. I am waiting for the tonex bonex sonex donex that will allow me to load irs or captures of pickups and guitars!!! Then a Pick ir so your Dunlop pick will sound and respond like Dava pick.. Great time to be alive as a guitar Player.. Take care all the best in wealth and health
:) Ha this was a very funny post and great to see. I IMMEDIATELY smiled, and I loved the Pick IR from Dunlop... :) so funny! Brilliant and be careful... they might do it :) Thanks and this one made my day...
Hey Tone. Am I the only bloke that's noticed how the peeps who tell you it's great having 'x' number of virtual amps in one box, are the same people who instead of having a basement full of amps, now have a basement full of amp modellers - instead of a load of 'boxes' that make different sounds, a load of boxes that all sound the same?
You're not alone there. I was discussing this very thing the other night after completing an audio section of one of those boxes. My comment was (and I won't hide it) 'after a while all these digital things sound the same'.. ) and I really did say that. I have looked at most of them since 2011, true I missed the odd one but in general that is my conclusion to this day. They simply don't have the 'feel' factor IMO. Thanks for watching and for the post which is interesting.
So (forgive my ignorance) your mate owns a Hughes and Kettner Tri-Amp III and you pop over to his place with your laptop and Tonex pedal and software. You capture the H&K tones and now you have his amplifier in a pedal? What is more, you can share your digital capture of that amplifier with everyone else who has a Tonex? Yes, I do think this is a game changer, but not in the way you describe. The age of digital amplifiers is with us now. I think the manufacturers will stop making tube amplifiers. Why would they have production lines for multiple different tube amplifiers when they could slim down to one digital thing with the capability of sounding however you want. At some point people will need to hear what the software is generating, so we will need speakers, and this is where the amplifier manufacturers will have to go. I bet there are ways of generating sound differently from rattling carbon granules in a magnetic field. I bet an amplifier manufacturer will make acoustic glass, or sonic paint, or a high-wattage radiator that can sound like a Vox AC30 or anything you like....The tone is just software. The sound is hardware, and soon it won't be thermionic cathode vacuum tubes. That's steam-age technology, but it still powers the Kemper and Boss Katana and everything before.
The problem is of course, when the tube amp guys stop making the very thing that is being 'cloned' (I'll call it that although its far from the truth) then all that will be left is copies of the real deal amps... and NOTHING new to try and clone. That's a bit like buying an ev car and assuming they are great. They will be for a short while... then one of three things happens: 1. New battery (throw the car they cost up to $50,000) 2. Depreciation? write off 50-60% within 2 years (still happy) or 3. Give up and buy the car you wanted before you listened to the hype (a petrol one!). In many ways there really IS an association particularly when there are no 'new' amps to rip off (another assumption by some), when you decide the digital stuff did have that 'something' missing, or lastly, you own 10 amps and are pi**ed at what you lost because of the digital stuff. Me? in the surveys I have ran, typically today (still) there are many that prefer tube amps: Modelers are dead... 3%, Profilers are king now... 15%, Tube amps are still the best... 58%, The whole thing is hype and the tones of tube amps reign supreme 24% and another was regarding the mix between the two: Digital is the way to go, Light, cheap, great tones, software and more. Perfect! 8% Tube Amps are king... always get THE REAL tone and stop playing computers! 21% Neither - they both have a place and what works for you is the right answer 71% Explanation Neither was my view at the time: It's the ONLY answer that fits the current state of play regarding newer technology and the older technology it claims to simulate. Many tell me that the digital gear is today and tube amps are so 'yesterday' and no one wants them. But that's a myth. Based on the recent videos I have created for (in particular) digital simulators my guess is that there are more guys telling me they won't sell their amps by far and use them 'all the time' than digital followers. Me? I do use both but lean towards tubes. You made a great post Andy and it is why really I made the video, to make people think. Mainly to make people think about the guys that lose their job! And lastly, remember this (as I have seen over and over), you become dependent on some software or app that some maker (there are some humdingers out there) either fixes problems with or does not, and if he goes bust and the app stops working look for a trash can. NO ONE ever mentions that ever, but its a perfectly valid reason to maybe not quite like the digital stuff as otherwise someone might. Thanks for a great post and for watching too.
Hey Tony! Long time watcher here. Do I dare to even say Tonex is beeing beat in it's own game right now by a thing called Neural Amp Modeler or NAM. Have a look into that, I did some videos about that on my channel. Pretty interesting phenomena! Thanks for your videos 👍
Indeed I know of it. Post a link on here to your videos... and why not... On subject matter though, I do think that many might be put off by the hoops to jump through re tech work etc. and remember its open source I think... Thanks for the post always nice to hear guys and yes stick some links on :).
Thanks for the reply, was just looking at your Marshall tour video! Here are two of the more popular captures. Two of my favourite amps, Plexi and a Mesa Quad Preamp! th-cam.com/video/DAOoSvVHYxI/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/_xx5r1xIKHs/w-d-xo.html Take care 👍
Hey! I don't exactly know who are these tonex boys, but I think the point is that this product is extremely competitive, specially for folk on a budget. I use Fractal because its very convenient and sounds great but that doesn't mean that Im selling my amps and wont be interested in other amps in the future is just that they're very loud and expensive
Tube amps can cost as little as £120 ($150). The fallacy of 'they are all expensive' is incorrect really. What I think you meant was 'all the tube amps I want are expensive' :) Thanks for watching.
I’m one of the last few ( in my circle)who prefers playing directly into a tube amp and get THAT amp sound rather than relying on pedals... plus vocal wedges instead of in ears...I do however like the possibility of having MY tube amp sound recorded into a device to take on the road IF the back line provided doesn’t cut it...( which has only happened a handful of times... I am about to experiment with just that... we shall see how it goes. I ALWAYS record with real amps... big difference to me. Great video!
I have tried many 'boxes' - they are claimed to be 'perfect' by many, and that was not my experience pretty much on most profilers. The modelers fare a little different too. Best? Still those glass tubes. And I think that the difference IS both tone AND feel... it just plays different through a tube amp. Thanks.
There's nothing like a tube amp , I can't believe all the people that get these products for nothing and then get paid to do a supposedly honest review , I'm with you Tony , if you put most of these units in front of a good tube amp or in the effects loop they SUCK YOUR TONE , put them into the PA and your playing is lost in cyber space
It often makes me wonder about it all really, have they even used a tube amp? Maybe not? and of course if there is no 'standard' to compare the digital stuff with then there IS NO comparison... then I guess the digital they could describe as 'good'. If you have used tube amps for a time, you will know there still remains a difference between the two. Thanks...
Hi Tony, thanks for your perspective. I don't think that tube amps will disappear but the convenience of modelling and profiling is hitting amp sales hard. The USA instrument amp market has halved since 2005. I think new players/buyers will steer towards modellers/profilers and those wanting a real tube amp will have to know what to do with it to make it worth their while. I have a Tonex and use it with HX FX, so I'm mixing and matching anyway, i admit that I prefer the feel of a real tube amp but have no way to reach useful volumes so I won't be buying a new amp any time soon.
The mix and match is a good compromise IMO... benefits both solutions in a good way. Great point and I agree the sims are really not quite the same. Currently, Mesa (for example) no one has in the UK? What are they playing at? or are the sales really that bad? I doubt they are, I think there are other aspecs afoot somehow. Even Marshall here, I am sure have struggled with this stuff and it would be sad to see it all go... thanks for watching and a good post.
How about reaching nice guitar tones to people who cannot buy those expensive amps?? I,ve been wanting to have a Triple rectifier forever, but cannot afford it, I have to save money for a few years before buying it. So should I just sit and wait??
Nope... Buy a PRS MT15 for $600 and you'll be happy forever... through a real tube amp and I can vouch for the MT15 personally. It's well made too! If you can't get to $600... no problem, buy a used one... Honestly I get the point you're making - but the 'price' is not really the denominator when you can buy an MT15 as I type on eBay for just (UK £) of £399.00. Scarily the same price as a TONEX here in the UK right now. They are chalk and cheese just trust me on that. Thanks.
Ex Kemper, now fm9 here, I have tried tonex and meh, and after testing NAM (open source), I liked NAM more for its simplicity, tones, and community…I left kemper because of profiling, just snapshots, you can’t tweak the amp like an FM9, fractal does the trick, by the way, I will never sell my tube amp, I want more amps though. Now, I must say Kemper was a great product, I have so much fun and love with that brand, if they come out with a new product, I am definitely in!
I for one am convinced that Kemper will be on a new device - the original was 2011 so its 12 years old! (the chips will become obsolete). Often they rework to newer chips etc. and take the opportunity to create newer stronger faster devices :). Good to know that the amps are still there too :) and thanks for the post very interesting and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial thanks to you, I still have my beloved Mesa Electradyne, thanks for your past videos on that amp! very useful at that time! Cheers!
Amp modeling will be a thing of the past soon. Everyone will move to captures for the amps maybe not so much the pedals but amps yep! I got an old Kemper,FM9 and just picked up a ToneX. It captures as good as the Kemper and it's 400 bucks. I paid an arm and leg when I bought my Kemper along with a HUGE learning curve. The ToneX is much easier imo. Real amps will never go away cuz there is nothing like playing thru the real deal. I have several rare amps and i will never sell those, they will go to my kids when I'm gone and hopefully they will plug in a guitar, crank it up and enjoy!
:) I'm sure the amps already made will stay, but who knows about the future? I do think though that simulations offer only part of the answer... as you sort of confirm by keeping the tube amps :) Indeed I'm keeping my tube amps too :) and thanks for watching.
I've said it before and say it till blue ...Keep the options alive ...what works for some doesn't need to be for all.. Love my Tube amps love maybe not as much my digital stuff. Get different things from both. Heck they have modeler guitars but thats not what it's about for me when I'm using gear and my rigs it's about the guitar more than anything else with some great options.
Very good point... I love particular guitars too and those different platforms show different things for me. I do use both, but my tendency is towards tube amps because its a studio... thanks for the post and for watching.
I used to play live with a Marshall combo and a Roland Jazz Chorus stereo amp (JC 120). Lugging those things around was such a pain in the butt that I eventually replaced them with a Seymour Duncan convertible amp. At the time, I was able to get pretty close to the Marshall sound and the Jazz Chorus sound in one amp without having to lug around a ton of stuff. Fast forward 20 years and now we have modelers. I think eventually everything is going to be digital. With computing speeds, sample rates, and bit depth that surpass human hearing, it is inevitable in my opinion. The bottom line is "what does it sound like?" I bought the Tonex Max software (no pedal yet) and am very impressed. I'd almost be tempted to play through my laptop live if I could get it to switch amps without glitching LOL. I do think it is sad that these tube amp manufacturers may no longer exist in a few years. But technological evolution is sort of inevitable.
Marshall and all the other tube makers ARE now suffering for sure. Sadly. And that was part of the point of the video - about the employees who have been making those incredible amps all these years.... discarded like some sort of trash :( very sad indeed. Thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial At the risk of sounding philosophical, I believe the electric guitar, compared to other acoustic instruments, is relatively new. For instance, the violin has been around for hundreds of years, and perhaps even a thousand in some form. The electric guitar, on the other hand, is a recent invention, and I think tube amps were simply used to make it louder because they were available. It's hard to predict what guitars will evolve into 200 years from now. Will tube amps be just a blip on the musical instrument evolutionary timeline, or will they have staying power? I hope for the latter.
The one thing the modelers cannot replace is that smell of the tubes cooking! There's something magical about that smell when you walk into a studio! But you also have to think that for someone who does not have deep pockets who cannot afford a thousand different amps this is a viable affordable way to get a myriad of tones. I'm sure he's going to be people that try this pedal out and go through a gazillion amps and decide they've found one that they say I have to have the real version of. This could be a real decision maker for people.
It's true that some guys will like the Tonex. But for a REAL review of the Tonex and its software watch my review that highlights some of the frustrations that the unit offers for free... and believe me, the £400 (or $) pales in to insignificance if you have to buy a different laptop or PC to make the software work - as I show in my review... sure it can work for some, but I'm personally used to having gear that works, each and every time, and in a simple user way, not spending hours on end looking why it won't work, or indeed scouring the internet and finding that the problem has existed since 2021. That changes things ;-) Ha I'm not sure about the tube smell? Hey is that illegal :) My review is here: th-cam.com/video/FrS1hwOuLm4/w-d-xo.html and thanks for watching....
Don't forget I have a thing where you can vote your opinion and it would be great to see what the majority opinion actually is from higher numbers. Here: WANT TO VOTE? Go HERE: th-cam.com/channels/uuNmrkOEmTPnz4Dcc-Hi5w.htmlcommunity and if you can't actually vote there then thanks for at least trying... tell me if the TONEX 'changes everything' as they say?
Hypothetical thought - Now I own a Tone X, how do I hear it? (Headphones? Not gonna sound like a full stack!?) do I plug it into my $3000 Studio computer? AND $5000 monitors? Does it make sound? No? Hummm odd. So I plug it into a $50,000 PA at the gig? How do I practice? $2000 FRFR Cabinets? Oh just plug it into your $6000 Marshall plexi stack?! If so….why wouldn’t I just plug in directly and skip this nonsense?!? Everyone forgets you still need Power AND Speakers on top of the $400 pedal, but I digress. Please address this issue with your audience. Someone in the spotlight needs to point out this FACT. The TONE X Costs a lot MORE than just the hardware, let alone the super computer needed to run the Amplitube program, the DAW, and plug ins (NO FX) with out latency or at least LOW latency. This is a HUGE topic EVERYONE is skipping. #justsaying
Who realistically practices with a Marshal stack at home? I have no one in the house that would complain about doing that, but still I don’t. I practice what I’m not good at yet and therefore not something I would want to subject the rest of my household let alone neighborhood to. And these days I’ve yet to meet any band that isn’t practicing with a PA. Further, a $400 pedal and a couple of PA speakers(if you need to be stereo)will likely cost you about $1200 total. Compare that to a Marshal Half Stack which will cost you about $2000 ($4000 if you need to be stereo 😂)to get into the game with. Add the cost of Yamaha THR if you don’t want to get divorced. And lastly, if you were paying attention, the ToneX is a pedal. No computer necessary. Though a basic one will help make the library of amps easier to deal with. Obviously you have something that will suffice because you are typing here on TH-cam.
I’m going to try the Tonex through my Headrush monitor hope that sounds good. Yes synergy concept has been done before and I have a Randall RM 100, this seems cooler like you can have 2 modules with 2 channels and all of a sudden you have 4 channels of boutique pre amps that are designed with the corresponding companies . This seems like an upgrade from Egnator and
Randall , and you can get this into a lighter weight rack . Worth looking into , no rush though. I’ll hear what it sounds like in a few weeks seeing steve Vai , he uses them , I would get different modules though.
Playing the guitar is not just about the sound, but also the pressure, the feeling. It's an emotional thing. If I have a small flat in the centre and I just can't put a proper machine in there, then profiling is great because at least I can enjoy the sound. I wouldn't be able to use a normal machine there anyway. But on stage I want a proper amp with an amp behind me, not some FRFR.
Exactly right IMO. The feel remains doggedly extinct in the digital realm from what I see. They have a place, but not as a replacement. Thanks...
Yeah, it's a religion. It's probably fake but it's my religion. Something like that?
I might have agreed once, and it would still be my preference but I know a lot of seasoned pros who gig without amps and sound better than you and I put together.
It's not because they don't like the tube sounds, they do, it's almost completely down to practicality.
They’re all tools. You can use several tools to get the job done. I just use whatever sounds/works best for the situation. I love tube amp, profilers and modellers. They’re all fun!
For recording, these modellers are brilliant. Having spent 40+ years as a guitarist trying to move from studio to studio, trying to recreate the sound I want to record in different rooms with a plethora of mics, I can now happily work away at home and send my parts to the producer with none of the hassle of the past. For live work, I'm happier with a few pedals and my Fender/Marshall Bluesbreaker combination but... getting older now, gigging is not as regular so generally the old monster tube amps are just sulking in the spare room. Amps, guitars, effects, modellers are, as you say, all tools for making music. Oh and the modeller I use? The humble Headrush MX5 with about 12 presets I use regularly. If it's good enough for the people I work with - including the BBC - then it is good enough for me.
It's a brilliant, if confusing, time to play guitar and especially to be beginning as a guitarist. Although I do wonder whether part of the player I am, and many others from the 70s onwards, is down to the limitations we all faced before the massive leap forward in technology and cheap, but excellent guitars, amps, etc? There is a "tyranny of choice" out there, but thankfully it's all so bloody good, you can't go wrong whatever you buy. Anything's got to be better than a crap Avon Les Paul copy with egg slicer action and a bad transistor 50 watt amp from the local secondhand store that I started on lol :)
Ha I remember the Ned Callan :) one of my very first guitars :). Thanks.
You can't do that! There are rules! You must choose, you can go all over the place.
... 😂
Nobody is saying amps are dead, some people are saying modeling is dead. Amp capture technology is rapidly evolving and getting closer to the real thing.
the only problem with the amp captute is that any time you try to modify captured amp with the "digital potentiometers" you are loosing completely the accuracy of the capture so it is actually pretty difficult to have the sound for every occasion - this is where modeling wins in my opinion
:) I guess its like those dolls :)
@BartoszXIV correct, but that new Kemper 'liquid' update helps... Thanks.
@@BartoszXIV should be captured augmented modelling.
They’ve been saying that for 20 years
I don't think all the other instruments are obsolete, but I sure like being able to capture my hand-built boutique amps and get the same sound and feel in a little pedal that costs $400. "Real" amps are awesome but they are also expensive, heavy and they get banged up - keeping them in the studio is an amazing thing!
Well I can agree that it's interesting stuff, but hardly groundbreaking technology as I have been doing that since 2011 with a Kemper. Sadly though, I have not a single profiler or modeler that is creating the same feel of the tube amp in question. The tones are good, but just plug in a 1959HW Marshall and be in wonder... there really is little that is the same in comparison of any of them. Of course I would be 'thrown out' of the venue :) but that's another story. Thanks for the post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial The problem is, you have to crank up that Marshall to 'be in wonder'. Often times, for a lot of people, it's not an option, for many different reasons.
The topic of amp modelers versus actual tube amps isn’t so easy. In my humble opinion, I think the amp modelers have convenience and portability on their side. Obviously, someone who gigs regularly may consider that a terrific asset when trying to decide what to get. And yes, amp modeling and tone matching has come a long way over the years, so to be quite honest, the things sound not half bad!
But…. (There’s always a but)!
I myself own a Mesa Boogie JP2C, (with a Mesa Boogie Mark V before that) along with a pedalboard filled with all kinds of goodies. Maybe this is just silly, but when I plug into that amp and lock in my tone with the perfect effect for that moment, there’s nothing else quite like it. Sure, the amp modelers can give you all that too, but they can’t replicate the pride and passion I have for doing it all from the Mesa (and pedals) that I have working for me. The fine people at Mesa Boogie (and other amp companies) worked countless hours to get you the tones that give you goosebumps when you play! Playing out of a device that can copy something great is fine and all, but it just isn’t the same, and that’s all there is to it. Maybe I’m nuts (actually, I know I am), but that’s just how I feel. Is it a pain in the ass to carry all the stuff around (head, 2x12 cab, and pedalboard) when playing a show? Of course! But once I’m up and running, I couldn’t be happier, and wouldn’t trade it for the world. If I gigged regularly, perhaps I’d feel a different way, but I don’t. Just my thoughts. Take ‘em or leave em, but I’m with ya Tony. I hope the tube amps and companies that supply them stay around for quite some time.
Cheers, and best to you and your family.
Lenny Melzer
could not have said it any better
Lenny that's it - its all about the 'feel' (and of course the tone) but I do think the feel with a real amp is quite different. The digital stuff gets sort of near but lacks that feel and tends to remain 'digital' if you get me. The real amp when played through is very much more inspirational because of that mix of the two and there is no doubt in my mind that in my case at least the best results I can muster come from real tube amps turned up with a decent guitar. And here's a question... wem all logged those tube amps for years right? Are these new guys playing guitars whimps? :) (I can hear some now - 'I can't pick it up... booo hooo') just making people smile that's all! Thanks for the great post and for watching.
Dude Please live a 100 years in good health, you do so much good for guitar community.
Opposite: more Tube Amps will be bought to be profiled When Kemper was being demo'd in 2011 it was directed at Studios to profile the amp tone the Artist got in case of much later overdubs were needed and the profile could be used by the Artist on Tour to reporduce their Amp tone saving freight costs. Same still applies but someone has to create the new Amp tone everyone wants
Spot on!
I don't disagree :) but as no one ever raised the points I made the video... and thanks for the post and for watching.
Interesting video. I’ve been using the AFXIII for several years now exclusively for recording into Pro Tools and I’m really happy with it. I’ve owned several different modelers over the years (not Kemper or HELIX) and I think I’ve found the perfect tool for me. I’ve also owned several amps over the years including both tube and solid state. I currently own a Marshall DSL20 head going into a 2x12. All have their place. I actually prefer the tone of the AXEFXIII over the recorded tone of the Marshall, based on my experience. I’m sure the TONEX will find its place too with some people.
Same here.
The Tonex will be fine for some guys and also the Fractal stuff I agree, its all about what works for the player realy. Thanks....
Wow Tony spot on! People don’t stop to consider if there are no real amps around to sample, the sampling software will have nothing to feed off of. Unless in a bizarre twist of AI these machines start to cannibalize one another’s library of tones😮 lol.. I was using my laptop back in 2012 wwith an audio interface and an SM 57 with profiling software that was available back then, before the Kemper hardware really truly became a thing.
This is exactly my point... and Ha I really don't follow where it would end. No new amps, no speakers, no new pedals, nothing... its almost like sowing up your mouth and crawling up your own a****** :) eat yourself? weird... but I guess we live in a 'weird' world these days. I bought a Kemper just a month after launch and there was a real thing going on at that time for sure. There still is with some of them. But you know what, 'this changes everything' is a laughable joke that is repeated (or regurgitated) over and over through time and the current guys that favor the view often agree of the 'seachange' and how its the 'end of the world' which to be honest I doubt that change will 'change everything' as the guys financed to say that conclude. Great cmment and post and thanks... and for watching of course.
I totally feel your frustration. At last in my guitar playing journey, I’ve got a collection of three valve amps - A Fender Princeton 65, VOX AC15C1X, and a Marshall JTM Studio 20 watt combo. And now I feel like they’re becoming redundant with all the new tech. It pains me to have to now think of selling this gear on, to be in line with the ‘evolution’.
Great channel, Tony, really like your content.
Thanks for the kind words. Don't sell the amps... you might well regret it later. I have seen, used and owned most simulators and while the 'fan boys' love them, ask the tube guys what they think and its a different story. The 'feel' is generally missing from the simulators. Nearest? probably Kemper. Look cool amps there too. :) Thanks for watching.
Tonex is the first modeler that has made me rethink the need for tube amps.
Really? Well of course that's OK but maybe some of it can be frustrating, especially when the software won't install on industry standard equipment... tube amps just don't have that problem...
@@johnb4024 I got that problem in a Vox right now, it only comes or shows up once the amp is well warmed up, someone told me when it comes to tap it with a pencil to find which one it is. And where to buy some NEW tubes??
Need? Maybe. But want....
Its not a modeler….
@@AramPino If you want to nit pick yeah but Its not exactly a profiler either.
When you mentioned the idea that the sound people are looking for are ampless. I think there’s more to think about there. Maybe that’s the biggest threat to tube amps; no one remembers or even experienced what they sound and feel like. Then the baseline becomes profilers or modelers. Anything that sounds different is different.
I agree. A few years back I bought a Marshall 1959HW (I had the originals back in early 70's) but until I actually plugged in that amp after very many years of not doing that - I had literally 'forgotten' just how that amp sounded and importantly 'felt'. It really sort of confirms what you said here, its hard to compare if you have NOT done that. I was amazed at how that amp sounds when you plug in and sound IS subjective, but I can say I have never found a single device whether modeler or profile that is 'the same' as that amp, plugged in with its 1960a speakers. I get it... simply because I DID go back and check that amp. I still own it. But when there are no new tube amp designs, no new speakers, no new pedals etc. then the crunch happens. Sadly.
It’s not going to be the death of modelers or amps in the next decade or so, but you can certainly see the trend if you look at a larger time frame.
Many younger guitar players are not as convinced in the old school belief that classic tube amps just sound better than captures or digital modelers. I think that was the case 10-15 years ago, but the difference is getting smaller and smaller every few years. And younger players I speak to in our shop don’t hear enough of a tone difference to justify the huge price difference. More and more of them are going digital.
Which is a big reason that tube amp sales have been flat while capture and modeler sales have been exploding.
And that has been the case even while Axe effects, Kemper, QC, etc are still almost as expensive as a tube amp anyway.
So I think the hype with the ToneX is that for the first time, you can get captures from tube amps in a device that costs 1/5th the price of those other devices.
That has moved the needle a lot with a big portion of our younger guitar customers.
It’s not going to change big budget musicians at all, but it does seem to be having an effect on more budget conscious young guitarists.
So just keep an eye on it for the next 10 years or so as some of these young bands grow up and emerge, and then we will truly know how much impact this kind of tech really has on the old school brands.
Good points. Of course, there is no emphasis on what those tube companies might create. I doubt they will 'sit back' and just let others 'take' their tones that they have taken many years to make n the first place. Someone might/could gain with legal protection of those tones and what then? Good points and thanks for watching...
Tube amps aren't going anywhere. Looking forward to your Marshall video, best amp and cabinet I have and its no clone!
I think tonex, due it's price, will allow more people access to profiling. In near future nux, hotone, valeton, donner etc... will go to produsce their own profiler too.
In my opinion cheaper tube amps will tend to disappear, while the higher end ones will still exist (as for painting/photography, film/digital photos).
For me modeling has more prospects for improvement in the future than profiling, but requires much more investment in each individual amp, costs that companies do not have with profiling, where the work is done by the user.
By the way Tonex software allowed me to find my next tube amp :)
(Naturally using the models made by the same user of multiple amplifiers, I don't think it's useful to use models made by different people to make this choice)
I think that the tube amps will slowly disappear too. That was really the reason for this video... and thinking about the people that build those amps... Ha great point on the Tonex software and your amp choice :) and also check the Kemper player if you get a chance... very good tones. Thanks for watching BTW.
I wouldn’t fret (lol). This product just made stuff available to people that may have previously not been able to afford some of the equipment. Tube amps are great, Helix are awesome, Fractal, Neural, yadda yadda. This is a product for people like me that wanted a little more than what the Walrus ACS1 or the Strymon Iridium offer for our $$$. IK didn’t launch some preemptive strike or trash talk anyone or any company as far as I know.
Unfortunately, I’m getting the same vibes as the in the car world. You got a bunch of folks driving their Porsche and Maserati stuff and hate that anybody found joy in something that they didn’t have to get a loan for.
“You think they’re behind you but they’re ‘bout to lap you.” -J. Santana
You should buy a PRS MT15 (going on eBay for about $500 or less) and the sound I have to say is entirely real! Actually the reason I created the videos from here, is the INCREDIBLE amount of hype put behind this TONEX unit by YT reviewers - and sadly, generally they were given the units. The result? Huge and incredible hype of the product over and over ad infinitum. I tend to call those 'sales videos' and not actually proper reviews. Go and watch them and you'll hear the 'this changes everything' and 'modelers are dead' and a host of other diatribe that in reality is pretty meaningless. Honestly I don't think that sort of thing is helpful to people that want to see a product without the bias and hype - just the product... It's why I made the video review and later added this video to highlight what could happen (not particularly with the TONEX itself, but with that technology of profiling) and people could actually lose jobs. For me, that really is an underlying aspect of the technology that no one ever addressed anywhere. And YES! I get it re Porsche etc. as I have personal experience of that. Thanks for the post and for watching.
Modelers and profilers are great for
Making recording easy and accessible.
But some of the coolest recordings turn out great because of the limited gear. Turn the knobs on the guitar/amp, use the pickup selector. The more complicated the gear. The more time
I take endlessly obsessing over tone. A real amp and cab/ some effects. It’s plug and play and I get to do what I love, play the damn guitar
Right on! and thanks for watching...
Still nothing like the touch dynamics of a good, cranked, tube amp-speaker-guitar connection, not to mention the heady scent of hot cookin' power tubes in an old amp cabinet. 😁😁
I can agree :) Thanks for watching.
I think amp modellers, etc. are very convenient and good to record in a DAW. No need to mess with micing up and all that. They are also good for bedroom players who can play thru headphones.
The real tube amps are more for serious users and professional musicians and studios
They all have their place
I agree, but I would not like to see amp makers, speaker makers and pedal makers all get closed down? That was the serious point behind the video - and the boys with 'this changes everything' are possibly (likely) wrong :) Thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Hey if solid state did not KILL the tube amp. what chance does Computer/solid state have?? What worrys me more is all this Silent Stage trend going on. no amps on stage, that is really ridiculous, the stage is not a STUDIO. WEIRD. And yet most drummers still prefer acoustic drums/cymbals.
Spot on, I use modellers as it suits my needs the best but there's a place for everything tube amps to axe fx to tonex. I'll never get guitarists who think every new product has killed everything else.
Exactly. I also use amps and digital as necessary. Everything has its place but 'this changes everything' is so stupidly funny. Thanks for watching,
From my point of view everything has “changed” as Tonex has made owning an amp profiler affordable. That’s the point for me
Scarily - there's already a free one! And 'that changes everything again'. :) Welcome to the merry go round. but don't forget the guys that lose their jobs because some device (or software) clones the amp tone that took years to create... its the one thing every one 'forgot' about. Thanks for the post and for watching...
Tony, A.I. is the future. We will eventually be at a place where a product in a way not far away from what Sound Hound does will analyse a guitar tone from an audio file and boom it will give you David Gilmour's tone from the comfortably numb solo. In the same way it will give you any classic or other guitar tone that you have ever heard. The amps will no longer be needed as their tones have already been recorded in countless recording studios. It is not a matter of if but of when. Will it happen in our life times? Your guess if as good as mine. Tonex is just the tip of a very large iceburg. But the future is coming and for me it cannot come soon enough!
I get that, but from what I see of A.I. the eventually might be further than some might think. I have been using A.I. daily for a number of months and the corrections and re-writing etc. not to mention the incorrect facts makes me think that's still a while off. The point still remains that those tones were CREATED by the amp makers and IMO it is even morally wrong (as if many care these days) to simply take them without thought of the originators that invented each and every amp. It does not make things right, just to take the tones, and ha I could even guess that maybe it would produce a very interesting court case... maker against tone 'cloner'. Unlikely I know, but never say never especially when peoples livelihood is at stake. What I would say is this... I have used these types of devices since 2011 and there are so many modelers, profilers etc. and after a while I do have to say that they (all of the digital devices I mention here) all tend to sound pretty much the same... a digital tone and without the feel of the real deal amps. It's just an opinion of course and thanks for the post because no one is wrong :) and thanks for watching.
The Tonex is ok. That’s as far as I am prepared to say after using one for the last few days. It doesn’t inspire me to go back to it though, in fact, I have decided to send mine back. A few reasons. Firstly, I a/b’d the Tonex against my Dream 65 pedal. Some of the tones were pretty close to be fair but the Tonex doesn’t have Dream’s reverb. The amp is called a Deluxe reverb for a reason, and UAD’s sounds awesome. Secondly, I ran a few pedals into both units. The Dream did remarkably well at keeping the feel, the Tonex just felt compressed, didn’t handle the dynamics of output volume changes from the pedals. Thirdly, I like to tweak on the fly when recording guitars but felt that the Tonex eq just wasn’t that great. More importantly, when changing the gain on the Dream you hear what you expect to hear, as you would with the amp. Changing the drive on the Tonex just doesn’t give you these subtle characteristics of the amp, and how could it? It doesn’t know what they are. If anything, I would say that amp profiling has had its day because this is what it is and always will be. Modelling software on the other hand will continue to get better and better. So, in summary, Tonex will get you some decent tones but it isn’t close to the complexity and just pure joy of a decent valve amp. I think the market for Tonex probably includes a fair few players who have never used a decent valve amp. For those that have, it ain’t even close.
Also, I have played guitar for 20 years, have owned tube amps, have toured w tube amps.. I am also an audio engineer and producer… have worked at big studios in L.A, so I feel like I can judge this and to me your last sentence is wrong. Tonex sounds amazing.. it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you.
I agree that the Dream 65 Pedal was great re the 'feel'. Something that many/most devices of digital nature simply don't extol. Recently I carried out a limited survey re Tube Amps and are they doomed so to speak. There were over 200 entries and the No they are king response was actually about 83% the rest falling back to digital in one way or another.
Hey Jiroe, Chris was making a point... which he is entitled to on my channel without being nasty to other visitors. Me? I like to see reasonable comments without personal criticism like "it just sounds to me like you do not know very well how to get any sound you want w any tools you have in front of you" and honestly, for someone that has 'been around', and with your great ability, that sort of thing is not really befitting. It's OK to apologize to Chris if you want to and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial there’s nothing wrong w my comment, I did not insult, I did not use any swear word, if you want to read too much into it… go ahead. I said what I said. As a professional to me his response sounds like he doesn’t get the concept which I was taught from the very beginning: achieve any sound w anything you have in front of you. There’s nothing nasty about my comment. It would be nasty if I was insulting him or something like that.
You’re missing the point of the ToneX , yes sure people that don’t buy amps aren’t going to start anytime soon but those of us that do have the amps is I can clone my arsenal of amps and install them in a pedal that weighs 3 pounds , play my ToneX through the loop of my Boss GT1000 (my case) or Helix , HXStomp or HXFX , put my Boss effects in front and behind the ToneX for a light weight rig . I can’t carry my JVM410H as easily as I used to and this makes it easier to take my amps with me
Rockerverb MK3 100 is another one I prefer to leave home , the heaviest amp I own with the least channels and no boost
There are many low cost and light tube amps around. The weight thing alone is not really the best of gain to apply I think. There are of course other advantages of profilers, modelers, and indeed tube amps. But personally I tend to grab a tube amp rather than faffing around with the software that does not (often) work. The Helix software is exceptional and so is Kemper's - and I own both. But like everything, we all follow what's best for ourselves really I think, and you touched on that really. For me the Tonex adds far too much 'baggage' when I can get the tones and feel I want in 30 seconds and at any settings... you'll know profilers operate effectively at the settings that were there when the capture was created. Not so with a tube amp. In any case, good post - appreciated, and thanks for watching.
One serious problem is: tube amps have gotten astronomically expensive over the years. For one reason on top of another, the price keeps going up. I bought an original USA-made Peavey 5150 back in the 90's from a local music store for $750. It was brand new. Today, an EVH Stealth 100watt costs $2,400 in the USA. And the damn thing is made in Mexico! Inflation is part of it, but not all of it. Guitar players are always looking for alternatives. The AxeFX-III is super expensive as well. And it's not even an "amp"! It won't drive a 4x12 cab. It's a "pre-amp". We need to start getting away from tubes. The Boss Katana Artist head is a great choice. I also like the Orange Super Crush 100. Leave the tube amps in the recording studios, and RENT them. If you just play at home... stay away from tube amps. Not worth it.
The scenario you mention just makes a good case for buying USED tube amps or even lunch box tube amps for reasonable prices.
@@KaddysJamKave All tube amps fail. And when they do, you need to get them fixed. Also, tubes don't last forever. Do you have a good source to buy new tubes? And when you install those new tubes, you need to bias them. If you like fiddling with stuff and wasting your money, by all means, go buy used tube amps. It's the hobby within the hobby. I need to practice more, instead of tweaking settings or trying to get my tube amps fixed. Gear is not as important as the player.
@@TheCyberMantis Wow talk about a pessimistic view on reality. Most of your points are not true at all but it would be an awfully lengthy rebuttal that I can't be bothered writing... So you just do you... I have no interest in swaying another person's worldview.
@@KaddysJamKave Nice try. ALL of my points are true. You just don't like hearing the truth.
@@TheCyberMantis ok mate... Whatever you say... I better ignore my 30 years of experience and listen to you. I'll sell all 12 of my tube amps right away...
I did see one other channel bring this question up. Unfortunately, I can't recall which.
Here's the thing: true as it is, all it will take is for one generation to come up without the experience of having a tube amp pushing air for tube amps to disappear.
Already at club shows, groups are using these modellers and profilers over actual amps. It's almost standard.
There's numerous reasons - cost, chiefly - most young people can't afford an apartment, much less a tube amplifier. But also there's the question of storage. Plus, most bands don't play at the literal deafening levels we did, they don't need anything that powerful.
Things change, not always for the better, but that doesn't stop it from happening
Not from what I see... and a tube amp can be bought these days for about £100 ($125) even that weighs less than your guitar. No effrect on tube amps... hmmm... there has been a tremendous slow down of new tube amp models being released in to the market currently make no mistake about that. And I can't buy Mesa amps here in the UK, Marshall are slow currently, and most brands equally slow. Is it the fault of gear like this? Maybe so or maybe not, but read all the posts and you will find that by far the majority remain firmly focussed on tube amps. I 'get it' for the post and thanks for that as it is a good contribution IMO and of course thanks for watching.
I think where this gets interesting is serious bands wanting to record with real amps but tour with modelers. They are easy to set up and less finicky than the rigs of old. Metallica, for example, uses AxeFX III now for live shows (as do a lot of other touring acts). They record with the Boogies but found the Fractals far easier for Road Life and you'd never know live. Now you compound this with hobbyists, like myself, using a fractal and not buying new amps (Although that is more due to keeping the wife happy).
Demand will drop for $2k+ tube amps and some manufacturers will not survive. I still think there is a strong base for them but we will see the market retract overall for tube amps.
Interesting points of course. Bearing in mind it's 'unlikely' that Metallica do anything except walk on play and walk off is an interesting aspect that certainly does not see them arguing that the 'gear is too heavy - these darn tube amps have to go' sort of thing... yes maybe Metallica are less bothered about their live tones? or worse, are more bothered about their recordings and don't care about anything else? Ha the more I think of this its a VERY good question... Hey Mr Hetfield.. (I'll call him that just to be safe!) tell me the truth why you do it? Ha... I'm having fun of course... just joking around, but it IS an interesting point. Thanks for watching too...
Man, you're damn right!
I have tube amps, modelers, many pedals. I’m waiting for my Tonex pedal to come in. 150 amp captures at your feet. Looking forward to trying it out. It is great technology. I’m 61 years young.
I don’t play in a band. Use what you want! It’s a great time to be a guitarist!!!
Ok you have your beloved amp, cab, and fx. Hopefully you have people to help you move it around. You have to mic it up to play your gig or record it. The tonex pedal solves a lot of issues.
Play any amp out there bye loading it on to your pedal via computer. Most people can’t even tell the difference if it’s a real amp or a capture. Especially in a mix most people don’t care as long as it sounds good!!! Isn’t that all that matters good tone. And having fun playing. Some people want to have a huge tube amp collection. Others want to have great tone!! There’s no right or wrong. I prefer to have all the choices I can!! I have thought about selling my amps! I don’t even use them anymore. But you always take a beating when you sell gear!!
You SHOULD check the Kemper player... it has 22000 profiles of amps that are very good. Build is excellent too... thanks for the info on your setup too and thanks for watching.
I agree with you. But I also believe that the tube amplifier is absolutely essential for a guitarist who wants to experiment with sounds. Profiling is done on real amplifiers. And a profile, at the moment, consists only of a "snapshot" of the amplifier with precise settings. All the infinite variables that can be extrapolated from an amplifier cannot be contained in a handful of profiles. However it is likely that the cost and convenience of digital will greatly reduce the purchase of tube amplifiers. It already happens. But what's the point for an amateur guitarist to buy a 5,000 euro Friedman if he then has neither the possibility nor the practical tools to exploit it? Who can push a 100 watt Plexi around the house and record with a microphone? Yes, we can use something like a Torpedo Captor and IRs, but how close do we get to digital sound? Is it worth spending so much money? Sure for some people yes, but for most?
I will never part with my tube amps, in fact, I will continue to buy more and more. But I will profile them. Digital, as I see it, is a great tool. Unfortunately it will have its drawbacks in the market. We can't do anything about it
The digital connundrum is a sticky wicket currently. I have had many profiling bits of gear. I still never really get what the amp creates -although the 'this changes everything' brigade tell me otherwise. Like you, the amps are not going anywhere. I come from technology since 1981 and have seen many things, vapourware, promised upgrades, even pay now and we might ship someday, no software, you'll know what I mean. There's another aspect to the problem of digital profiling too. NO ONE EVER talks about it but I can and will in a video, but as a short intro, the particular chips used come and go. When those chips cease production - throw it in the trash - because there is no other solution. Ever. Tube amps can at least be 'resurected' one way or another... but not a peep out of those reviewers that are creating reviews for sales only. Sadly. Thanks for the post great points... and thanks for watching.
glowing bottles of tone forever
Yippeee :) Thanks for watching.
The thing I am watching is KEMPERS and Line 6 response both are different type one photo captures/profiles, and line 6 a modeller type. Obiviously the bigger assault is toward kemper, who has more or less sat still for more than 10 years, at a high price point. It will be interesting the next year at least. I think Tonex fell short not being able to have a unit with all the Amplitube 5 capabilities, no effects built in, no compatibility with Amplitube to the Tonex Pedal. So we will see.
I agree that Kemper device is old. The software they do update, but I remain concerned that a device at 12 years old is due an update of that there is no doubt and I have been expecting one for some time, but its all quiet on the western front so to speak. I found the support on the TONEX to be lacking and with the problems I encountered (some had them two years ago on same basic software) I was not convinced really. Thanks for thew info though and of course for watching.
To me, modelers are like sampling synths. Very convenient for live performance but doesn't have the mojo of the real thing. People tend to judge value based on cost. Tell me this. Each time a new modeler comes out, people say "It's so much better than it was before. You can't tell the difference." However, I don't hear them saying it's better than the amps that they model?
You raised agreat question for many 'new' things. For example, the Axe FX II was the best in the world and you won't need another one... type of mentality... then came Axe FX III which is 'better'. Does that mean that 'hey we sold you a load of cr** last time, but now we've fixed that - this is so much better'? Ha I laugh at most of the claims put out - Oh te old one was junk right? or was it? NOONE that sells the stuff (of almost any music gear) ever will answer those sort of questions of course... and you touched on it - a REALLY good post. Thanks for watching.
I want a cheap solution to have my plugin sounds on stage, this seems to be the only solution for that rn apart from playing with a computer, it s not about stealing a sound, it s about knowing what you want and being able to transport it anywhere
Currently I don't find ANY device that will transport 'your sound' (or indeed the feel of playing through a tube amp) available from any company, and there are far better ones out there than with the Tonex. Thanks for the post, I get your point of course. But the real reason for making it was to NEVER forget the people that lose their jobs through this recent technology, all to simulate real gear in what is not a perfect way. See, price drives everything right? That is one reason why there is so much gear made in the far east. Thanks for watching...
Good video - all ages of technology are reflections of the needs and desires of their time - it would be a sad world if we banish our memories.
Imagine the cost of the workforce if all that came to fruition? Scary...
Missed your video's Tony. Hope your well mate. Straight to the point and I agree. I went 100% digital and never looked back. All the best from the Lake District 😊😊👍👍👍👍
:) I need to teach you... (NOT) :) and I trust that at least a few guys visited your free downloads for the stuff . Thanks for watching and the post...
What’s dead are taking Marshall stacks onstage. With the era of silent stages becoming the norm, regular amps are being forced out for some of us that play live.
I agree they are... with the resulting loss of those brands and the employees that work there... That was actually my key point.. Thanks.
But does the Tonex have that amp in the room feel ? Cause my FM3 does not , and does the Tonex present you a great sound quickly ? As my FM3 does not . I spend too much time messing with options and not playing .
I am using ToneX without cab into the effects return of a H&K 100w Solid State amp... With this setup, the feeling of real tube amp is spot on. On the other hand, if you hear through monitors/headphones using cab sims or IRs you will never get the "on the room" amp sound
Well Alex has said he can get the 'feel' from his digital gear. However, since 1009 I have only ever once achieved similarity to a real tube amp and never repeated it... and that was with the Helix first time use many years back. The tube amps win re the feel of the amp when playing and also getting great results in about 5 minutes - the software on some of the digital gear is bug ridden, lacks proper support and is cloud based which if the maker ceases the gear could be rendered useless. The tube amps have none of that in general. Just an opinion and its no more or less valid than others... and thanks for watching.
Tony, I have to disagree. I honestly thinks it changes the landscape, thats for sure, but does not replace valve amps. They are gonna replace the cheap crap that all these companies put out for loads of money like the Marshall MGs, the Line 6 spiders and so on. But, just like the Joyo Bantamps (amazing sounding amps and loud enough for 90% of the gigs out there), the Tiny Terrors and the Marshall DSL didnt ruing the whole premium valve amp market. They are not aimed at the same players. Touring musicians do like having the convenience of tone matching and carrying something that weights 500g and not 20kgs. Beginners like to have access to great sounds without breaking the bank (and they had it before the modelers with the plugins and scarlets 2i2, the irigs and bias fx). Still, you need the real ones to create new sounds, studio guys prefer having the real ones most of the time.
In fact, I would argue they are good for business. Having a good sound inspire you to play, it makes you feel better because it sounds pleasant, that leads to practice, that leads to love for music and, ergo, fancy and overpriced guitar amps - which I own a couple, and a ToneX.
Just like affordable and great guitars did not ruin the vintage guitars market, even though a lot of modern guitars do sound and intonate way better than older instruments, having great sounding affordable gear is not gonna take the big ones out of business, actually its gonna put more people in love with music, and guitars, and lead them down the rabbit hole. My students can all play with the toneX, its right here, it sounds great... but they always prefer the JVM410. Do they know how to twist the knobs, set the gain, or do they even get to play with anything past lvl 1 on the master? No. Yet, they still want it.
Its not a rational thing, having a modeler is a practical solution for practical problems. It is good for people to have good tone at affordable prices, it is good for touring and not breaking your back. Still, we buy the fancy heads, the 412s, we have 5 or 6 amp heads and we still buy the 7th, 8th. We have loads of guitars and we buy more, that will be played once every blue moon, we have a drop tunning pedal, and we still have guitars in different tunings. We buy overdrive pedals just because they are red instead of green.
So, dont worry, the amp market is safe, more than that, its gonna do great, there are a lot more guitar players and people exploring the guitar around than in the early 2000s. There are guitar brands, higher quality instruments, PRS SEs, Ibanez Genesis, and every other day a new guitar brand putting impressive stuff out. And people still buy their Gibson's (even when they have the same headstock problems since forever). Things are gonna be great.
You made some great points, and making a video like this has sort of stimulated the thinking of many (read the posts) including yourself I think - its exactly why I made it. It's not that it WILL happen, but there is a possibility because no one can truly read the future (think Mesa and Gibson as an example or Fender and Presonus) least of all me and you :). But didn't you notice something? Not a single reviewer mentioned that point about people losing jobs at all? Your points are all possible as are mine... but the lack of consideration by ANY of those so called reviewers really shows a lot of the reality of how it all works, and I guess when they get the item for promoting product then maybe there's something lacking re truth underlying the review. BTW the amp guys I have spoken with are very adamant that the tube amps will remain long term (based on a survey I'll be putting in a video) - the results are interesting and are based on real survey rather than anecdotal opinions that we can all create. I did do a few different surveys etc. too and that should be worth taking a look when I get the video on there. I'm on vacation currently. Thanks for the great post - appreciated and thanks for watching.
Just been having this conversation with my wife. But the flipside is that we have a depletion of raw resource. AI and tech in general will preserve the sounds and in the future, no doubt we will be making sims from sims, a bit like a star trek transporter. Henry Ford would probably have a few comments about electric cars! I'm in my 50s, been playing Orange and Marshalls since I was 14. It's sad to see so much history, science, manufacturing and technical skills being replaced. However, I've played the OR virtual amp in Tonex and it is every bit my old RV50MKI. There is a revolution and like it or not, we have to accept. Rather now than later before we run out of the raw materials and have nothing to play. I guess we are at the cusp of entering into a frenzy of tech development that is going to impact on every aspect of consumerism. Welcome to the future, but not necessarily the one we hoped for.
About ten years ago I created a comedy video (the Focknrollers) and we made some trailers. One was by (the guitarist Carlless Sultana) and he showed making a profile of a profiler :) you're not far off. :) Go on laugh... th-cam.com/video/caEhIa3D6kA/w-d-xo.html more at focknrollers.com
Am I mad? Likely....
Great content Tony, and here's my take. I love pedals and enjoy integrating pedals and processors for fun. As long as you apply MOORE's law you can generally wait it out and save a great deal of money, and have the massive library of sounds from online content and updates. I don't have the time to chase every possible tone and combinations so I'll let the professional take that role and just enjoy playing. Keep the videos coming!
Yes that is often a convenience choice really. And I get that for sure. I even play around with the pedals and digital gear myself too. Thanks for watching...
I have a room full of tube amps..and I love them..but it occurred to me awhile back,that EVERY guitar tone we have ever heard,is NOT an amp in the room flapping your pants legs,it a mic’ed up amp/cab,in another room,monitored by FRFR speakers…It’s a different thing entirely than blasting a Marshall thru a 4x12 in the room…it’s that sound filtered thru a microphone…I think both have a place,and they always will….I use both,depending on what my needs are….
I agree there IS a place for both technologies (especially in the studio).
I think this pedal is for live gigs where its very hard to carry a marshall fullstack. I'm a tube amp guy, but this pedal + good pedalboard does the job in live gigs or silent recording in apartment. Tube amps are unbeatable and these kind of units cannot replace the real deal amps :)
There IS a place for all of it of course you are right, and thanks for watching.
im sitting here watching this with my tonex pedal plugged in to my hx stomp and into studio monitors it sounds frickin awesome Tony !!! got a gig Saturday night will be using my 70's 50 what Marshall master volume which also sounds frickin awesome .!!!!.... proof modern and vintage gear can live side by side ... tell you what though Tony, wish modellers existing 40 years ago when I was learning how to play x
Well, I get what you're saying... but remember this - Marshall just 'sold'? I made this video a week before they said anything... but I don't 'blame' TONEX for that actually... more like Cov** is my opinion. But watch this space as to whose next, just trust me on this. And hey thanks for watching - its always appreciated.
People on TH-cam and on forums have said similar things when the Kemper first
came out.. but like anything that has a legacy a lineage there's always people out there that want it and want to use it.. when I was 13 years old the first amplifier that I purchased was a mid-60s blackface Fender super Reverb and I got it used in 1978 for $300.. the only thing that didn't function on it was the Reverb and since it did not have a ground plug there were times when I got shocked using it but once you turned it up to about four and it started getting loud it started sounding really good.. I've seen the same amp online for around. $3000. And the Marshall jcm 800 50 watt head and cabinet that I bought brand new in 1984 for about $1100 is now about 4 to $5000 on the used Market.. so this old technology seems to have gone up a lot in value because there's always somebody that wants it and wants to play through it. But there is a great market for amp modelers because if you're playing a lot of live shows in different venues there's always a problem with consistency of sound with tube amplifiers.. and the main reasons are differences in electricity running to the amp changes in voltage from one venue to the other and the sensitivity of bias adjustments.. so one day the bias is this and the next day after the tube amp has been knocked around and pic😢ked up Etc the tone quality keeps changing and it gets frustrating.. solid state amplifiers and amp modelers tend to be a lot more consistent night after night so a lot of people like to tour with them.. the main game changer for something like the tonex is the affordability..
Indeed - I have owned a Kemper since January 2012... it remains even today a good product if a little geeky looking. The Kemper Player has 22000 profiles and I have to say its better than the Tonex in many ways... watch my review coming up... I like tube amps. They still bring something that these types of devices never really do deliver IMO, but I do use simulators also personally. Thanks for the post - always nice to read and see from viewers... and thanks for watching.
I got ToneX Max for 88€ from Thomann. It is very jammable thing but it takes a lot of effort to get there and there is also the great factor of luck just like with tube amps. But when there would be even one musical tube tone it would be OK! Luckily I found it. It is called Clean Grit. What you do is drive it with two different kinds of compressors and huge preamp boost and it starts to sing like anything I've heard before. So I take it is not meant to be used this way... What I will do is to build real tube preamp(16 tube matrix with effects loop for every tube joints) and feed it to ToneX cabs. ToneX is very good for tracking how cabs effect the tone. But when you try those bass amps you very soon find out the deeper truth.
Thanks for this very useful post that many will (I am sure) try out. Have a great new year and thanks for watching.
100% agreed. I have a Headrush modeller and 3 tube amps and I still spend a lot more time playing my tube amps. As close as people say the modellers and profilers are to the real amps, I can hear a difference.
headrush prime now has profiling
Thanks for sharing! and for watching too! Appreciated.
The real moment when everything changes will be when some AI creates a model from scratch that sounds and plays better than any actual amp. It may look at all of the tube models and create something that is tubier than an actual tube can be. The tones that are produced by a tube are limited by the physics of our universe. For instance, a model with moments of absolute silence between each note of a super chunky riff, while having sustain of biblical proportions with feedback that plays as if it is reading your mind.
You are correct in saying that there needs to be a source for the AI to work with. However, Chat GPT can generate code to satisfy requirements given to it in plain English. But it is just leveraging code patterns that humans have written.
I love this bit " tubier than an actual tube can be" :) It reminds me about Fractal Audio and their Axe-FX V2 - they said in some European ads that basically you will never need anything else :) Ha then they released V3... I get your point... but I think way off in time. My own experience with Chat GPT is that it gets lots of things wrong, mixed in with some good info... when I use it for something I am very knowledgeable on, I see the errors and they stand out a mile. But good point and thanks for watching.
I ordered this pedal. But not to replace my amps. After all your review of the 5150iii 50w stealth helped convince me to buy it. I've played with a few modeling software captures and some cab IRs, but they're not the same as the heads and 2x12 in my garage. They are a lot easier to record with, for me and my budget. But I am also a drummer first and foremost and the guitarists who actually show up to studios and shows have tube amps, the home studio solo producers will be the ones exclusively playing modelers and profilers. You can't IR a 4x12 through headphones or monitor speakers and experience 4x12 tone. You can't capture the full range of an amp in a profile, just the range where it's knobs are profiled. But you can get a taste for yourself of what a Diezel VH4 or a vintage JMP can do dialed in which is pretty neat.
Yes I get what you're saying for sure. I do use digital technology sometimes myself too. I also like the amps because when I can crank them they do sound 'different' and 'feel' different to me. But great point and post and thanks for watching.
I figure Tonex is IKMultimedia's answer to the Positive Grid Spark line, trying to move the computer sims into a physical unit, but the 'modeler pedal' market is already saturated at every price point imaginable. So it might be popular for 5 minutes but then the next shiny will come along. Guitar gear is in it's 'Cambrian Explosion' stage, a zillion alternatives popping up and at the end of the day after all the competition settles out, only a few will be left. Not sure that tubes will be part of what remains, it's a narrow specialty and will only get more and more pricey.
Remember that there is now a 'free' capture product... ;-)
I don’t think most people think that modellers and tube amps are the same things. They serve different purposes and have their respective strengths. The reality is that carrying big amps around is a pain in the ass and products like this fix that problem
Just trust me on this... many people think the simulators are the same or better than the real amps. I certainly am not one of them, and as you say there are differences for sure. Thanks for watching.
We're all being sold a bill of goods. Every day. I didn't even know about this bit of gear until you showed me. I don't have time to pay attention to all the crap on TH-cam that channels are trying to sell.
I really believe that all the "newer gear" is trying to get in on what really sells.
As far as Tube Amplifiers go. I don't expect to hear any at Live Shows in the future.
Live shows have really become a joke if you ask me. And I'm not talking about a local band who is using what they have to produce music. I'm talking about mainstream music and the karaoke shows they give us these days. Used to say, put some ear plugs in. Now, each member of the audience is better off with their own personal set of headphones.
I think every musician should use what makes them happy. But before they do that. They should actually find out what makes them happy, first.
Not be told by some random paid promotion on TH-cam.
Thanks for keeping it real, Tony! Rock on!
This point you raised is real. I have friends that gig, and most tell me these days are not what they were before 2020. Even Terry Marshall - in the interview I just recorded and posted said that he has had trouble re gigs etc. I think everyone has, and it has NOT come back as we know it. There is such a combination of things since 2020 that tear at most aspects of life IMO and many are unpalatable, but none the less real. The venues also suffered and are STILL suffering at least in the UK and likely USA too as there remains uncertainty in financials and all that other bad stuff currently. However, I really would not see major gigging musicians using a TONEX in some arena! My take on the 'buying public' is this - there are some top artists... then there are some studios, then some local pub bands etc. but the majority of equipment sales was and probably always will be Mr Joe Public - no matter what some might say, and that equipment really IS marketed to those customers. Why? Simply because they outnumber the 'Pro's' probably 100 to 1 or more. Remember the volume IMO is NOT the 'Pro' musicians, it's Mr. Joe Public and here I take a bow as being one of them :) basically its all consumer gear these days. Thanks @DetroitWrecker666 a very good point. And thanks for watching.
As an old school metal player, when I started playing as a teenager, it was always the dream to have a real tube amp, but who could afford that as a teenager? As an adult I’ve played/owned them for years. While I do use amp sims, & I do have an AxeFx 3, I also have an EVH 5150 III & a Marshall cab. To me they are great for different things. I love modeling/profiling for recording. I think IRs are one of the best things ever invented for recording! BUT…that is of a guitar amp sound that is mic’d up. That does not replace the amp in a room sound. I like them both for different reasons. I really like the sound of a real amp into a 4x12 cab when I just jam to have fun. I always do that for practice or just playing. I use the axefx 3 is what I use to record with, as a tool, but I have fun with my real amps. That’s kind of how it is for me
Great info and thanks for the post. I could guess we all do what we 'think' is best. I have lots of gear, but I do tend to stick with real amps and cabs for recording 'proper' stuff. I have had a Kemper since January 2012 or somewhere there and you know most digital stuff can sound OK to good, but I prefer the real amps - it sounds and 'feels' somehow different... there's little like a really good amp and decent speakers and the setup is pretty instant. But I guess its horses for courses :). Thanks for watching.
A few will still make the amps, but respectefuly we do not need more amps being built in mass, we just need people to profile what already exists In fact, I've created over 300 profiles with ToneX both with boutique real world gear and also with virtual amps - with IRs and simulations of IRs. Therefore a physical amp isn't even techincally needed for the "profile" tech in a pedal to be relevant. There are plenty of guitar amps out there for those that want them, a tube amp isn't something that just dies and goes into a landfill after 5 years. There is a reason why amps from the 60s (yes, SIXTY YEARS OLD) are still being used, bought, sold, and profiled. The tech is built to last. We just need a good "play back system" there is a reason why people playing tiny venues still use tube amps as the PA systems can be garbage. But if you step up to real venues - suddenly the sytem is good enough. The point about TONEX you are missing - is the tech is finally good enough and affordable enough that buying an amp instead doesn't make sense for the majority - people are playing at home where they can't crank a tube amp, actually care about their hearing, etc. The "capture tech" of 2010 didn't change everything becuase it cost $2K to get the device plus more money to get either the gear to profile or to buy other peoples gear. With ToneX, you don't even need the computer. A free version with a $100 interface and you have the same tone, it is crazy. And you spend $300-400 on the pedal you have something you can literally gig with or take to a recording studio. The days of 100 Watt amps are for the most part over except for a very small portion of players.
Tonex Is a no-brainer, especially for the gigging musician. Trust me the audience is not going to know if you used a $2000 amp or the Tonex pedal. If what you play sounds good that are all the people including myself care about. Loading and unloading big amps and cabinets is really no longer needed in this fast-growing rate of very high-quality technology in the world today.
You raise good points and thanks for the post. But its no longer 2010 and you can buy a great amp for £400 ($500) these days with lower outputs and control devices. And as you say, they will still be working very many years later. Whereas the 'trailing edge' chips involved in the digital equipment moves very fast. Expect obsolescence fast... taken over by others and then no repair parts. Since 2020 I have seen over and over devices that have chips forced upwards from say a $1 part by suppliers to a $10 part for the exact same chip... if you can even get it. Then there's the software... usually cloud based and with bugs - and not very good support (no one cares) and if a company goes bust... look for a trash bin for your shiny digital device. That's the reality today sadly. It's not that they sound particularly bad or anything like that, but these points are not anecdotal, I have seen them in reality personally and trust me, the maker CANNOT solve those issues. Lastly on those tube amps... there really is more than 'just' tone going on, the amp 'feels' different and can be far more inspiring than the digital equivalent IMO. Good post and thanks for watching.
I am about to buy a Tonex because I have 3 kids and money is tight. I would love to have 150 tube amps but I can't even afford one. I play at church and a tube amp in that setting is just too loud. What I see happening is the same thing I see happening with guitars. The tube amp makers will sell less and charge even more for what they do sell. These digital knockoffs will become what Squire is to Fender. People with deep pockets will continue to buy the real amps and the working class will go the cheaper digital route. I am old too and the thought of lugging a tube amp around and 4x12 cab doesn't interest me at all anymore. The major amp makers already see the writing on the wall and have started moving digital to keep the lower to mid-priced amps moving. Look at the Katana for instance. I have 2 of them I run in stereo and when talking to music stores they sell more katanas and sparks than anything now. Many of the music stores have stopped even stocking the tube amps except for the smaller affordable tube combos. Will real amps eventually make a comeback? Time will tell I guess but when I attend concerts for the last few years I see Helix and Axe FX on the floor more and more and rea amps less and less. The tones I hear out of the PA sound killer so I see why even artists with deep pockets want the simplicity and dependability of digital amps and effects. You are the first I have seen to look at the big picture and what this means for the music industry. Pandora's box has been opened and I don't see tube amps making a comeback anytime soon. Great video!
Great points... but I can buy a real tube amp for about $130.00 and as heavy as your lunch box? As for cabs, again not really necessary as there is other gear that you can use... all in all about total the same price as the Tonex. Let me ask you this, when your software stops working and cant work the Tonex any longer because some software company went bust, how will you use your Tonex? on the other hand, the amp will run for the rest of your life! Its a great question that no one ever seems to answer. Amps will reduce in numbers I agree. And you have some great points... but being dependent on some software company is not really a very good idea... Thanks for watching.
As long as modelers and profiles try to catch up with the tube sound, tube amps will be the reference. Profilers just creates snapshots, they might match the tone at a specific setting but apart from these settings, it is all generic....The most important fact is, tube amps aren't electronically perfect - all the non-linearities, parasite issues from components doing stuff they theoretically shouldn't do, contribute to tone a lot, so we use "perfect technology" to simulate non-linearities and parasite influences - I call guitar sound design an artform of failure, which makes it so difficult for digital designers to catrch up with their concepts to simulate analog behavior. If they fully understand the "artform of failure, they could possible use their skills to write algorithms that control these parasite side effects and this would result in sound design above traditional tube amps, but I doubt that any of these brands ever will get there , since most of them put their focus on *the artform of failure" aka understanding how to get even closer to detail with their algorithms so they can simulate the reality as close to reality as possible ;)
A very interesting post for sure and there really is much in what you posted... great point. Thanks for watching too.
This tech improve and get better/cheaper all the time.
At some point it hit a threshold were no one can tell the difference, but then will keep on getting cheaper.
I have no problem with that, hell 90% of the tone is just the speaker and a few capacitor in the amp.
You can make a solid state amp sound identical to a tube amp for fraction of the price if you put the same speaker on it.
Ha I remain to be convinced... and trust me I have plenty of both types of products... :) Thanks for watching.
I've just come back from the 2023 Dart Music Festival. Mainly an original music festival with a few "party/covers" bands for later in the evening on the main stage. The festival takes over Dartmouth and uses several venues. Over the three days I saw 20+ acts.
I asked my non-musician wife which acts had the best guitar tones. She has no idea about the technology, just what sounds she could hear that she liked. This included one or two acts she didn't enjoy but thought the guitars sounded good. The amps behind the sounds she liked and noticed the best were... Tone King Imperial, Marshall 3-channel something-or--other, Vox AC30, Boss Cube.
There was a great covers band kicking off the first day and "getting the event started". Their (excellent) guitarist was using a Kemper. Very flexible, but the requirement to sound like the recorded guitar sounds made it a bit sterile. There was also a young originals band who were very slick and tight. The bass player and rhythm guitarist were using Kempers. The lead guitarist was the Marshall user my wife noticed and liked.
None of the acts I watched were using modellers. That surprised me. I made a point of walking to the stage front to look at peoples pedalboards. Almost all individual pedals, analogue or digital, but I didn't spot a digital MFX anywhere.
I own a GT-1000 (I've owned several modellers, and this is my favourite so far) and it does the job in the right circumstances, but I don't enjoy using it and it doesn't inspire me when I sit down to noodle away or write something. That's when I turn on a valve amp.
People who've never played a valve amp or learned to dial in their own tones won't be able to miss what they've never had. Ignorance is truly bliss.
Excellent post and I tend to agree with you. Thanks for that post too. And thanks for watching.
You make a great point Tony. Here is what will happen, in 20 years the Tonex will be a piece of digital history that we will laugh at how primitive it was. The same way we look at the first Line 6 Pod. Lotsa nostalgia
Probably correct - it all moves on. Ha will we (well you might I'll probably be where its dark) be discussing the latest Marshall digital amp and mentioning that you liked plugin X and others liked plugin Y. And the wealthy guys loved the plugin with over 1m bits... :) Thanks for watching.
The capture tech being more prevalent is cool too see, it does not mean modelers are dead (profiles and models are not the same thing), people are never going to stop buying tube amps, people with money are most definitely not going to stop buying tube amps ever, This is just more of the same, but more is better so thumbs up to that. It's great, as the consumer, to have so many choices.
Well in a way I agree. The Tonex (no matter what some say) is really a consumer device aimed at the retail market and not at the professional musician. Good point. Thanks for watching.
To those who rejoice that tubes amps are dead with ToneX ... what the hell are you going to capture if they are gone... use the protuberance you have on your neck people? Also, on capture is 1 tone, not a whole amp. I see it to be very useful for touring and gigging, no hassle always getting the same tone and just eq for the room and that's it. For home practice and studio, I will keep my tube and solid state amps thank you and I will complement with pc plugins and modelers. It is safe to say the market will change, but unless people really are that stupid, and I don't think they are because they will still crave that actual hardware "I own it" feeling... guitar players are like that, gear craving hoarders and that is not changing any time soon :)
Ha I just read about 'hoarding' guitars... I guess it could be a similar thing... except of course someone will own the stuff, if you don't then someone will. So 'hoarding' is a rather strange way of describing things. I actually do use my amps - not by the hour of course, but amps (or guitars for that matter) that I don't like I always sell. Seems logical :) and I tend to agree that amps are necessary to capture them :)
Great video, I bought the ToneX and have had a number of other "amps" in a box of some type for decades. Why, I like trying new gear. Things to remember with a one of these 1. if you play metal you'll have a stronger positive opinion regarding these devices because the do the power cord tone ok, they do the stepdown tuning ok, and the detorted thing ok. Where there is a utter fail is with anything in a clean tone. UA 65 Dream pedal was close, but is only about 60% of the real tone. One thing that tube guys like myself have to realize is that "sim/ir's/apps players are going for a "recorded" tone from their guitar that they can repeat over and over with consistency. What you miss when you fully accept that "recorded" mono tone is that tube amps push the air, you can feel the sound, and some refer to it as the tubes "breathing". I have really tried giving this digital thing a good go, but man they really need to address the clean tones. Lastly, it may not happen today or tomorrow, but if you use software "ANYWHERE in the chain to drive tone at some point you WILL run into latency issues, you just will and btw debugging latency issues can really suck.
A very good post and thanks for that - you're right re the 'air' factor and it makes things literally 'feel' different. Thanks for watching.
I forgot to mention, before I sell any real tube amps I plan on exploring the Synergy pre amps , if you haven’t looked into those already, check it out I have a feeling this will be more of a realistic substitution for tube amps . It’s expensive it will take awhile . If all you play is some genre of metal I think you can get by with the Kemper which you have .I will reply when I play around with the Tonex . Cheers !
You know what, those Synergy amps remind me of the Egnater stuff from many years ago... like the Randall Lynch amp (I owned one) and while the idea is a good one for me it all seems like for Synergy that its all been done before. I have a sneaky feeling that Bruce Egnater is hiding in there somewhere :) This is the Randall Lynch Amp I owned... was used by George Lynch in Birmingham England: th-cam.com/video/BeGn8rXrHqQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=negjUgH2-PgNvuKP and thanks for watching.
I consider buying a ToneX to capture my tube amps. No more lifting an AC30 around for gigs. In the Studio I'll prefer the "real deal", because the ToneX will only capture one specific setting at once. I can fiddle with the amp settings in the studio, and when I'm happy with it, I'll capture it to reproduce that specific sound live. Just get the best of both worlds, instead of continuing to break your back lifting these heavy amps.
Check out that new review I just posted on a Laney amp... worth a look! Thanks.
Nothing beats a real amp
🙄
Apart from two real amps
a whip? anyone?
We have 20 tube heads in our studios. We also have a Fractal Ax FX 3 and Helix. Every one of our 100’s of clients ends up recording their sound with a Marshall, Mesa, Vox etc and uses the Fractal as an effects rack. The feel of the analog tube amp is still king. We still play Gibson’s and Fender’s guitars even though it’s 70 year old tech. It’s about the feel…
Idk I find the Tonex very impressive in the studio. Give it a try… the amp profiles sound too close to the amps they are capturing, in some instances beating the Kemper
I agree the 'feel' really is different than the sims and modelers. And often its just quicker to get the tones you really want. Thanks for the post and for watching.
Neural DSP all the way. It's like having all the best amps. Tired of big heavy heads and cabinets. The future is bright.
Oh well. So what about all those employees that lose their jobs? All end up with no income, all because some company came along and maybe (figuratively) stole the tone? There certainly is more to the situation than many think and its why I made the video to highlight this point. However, great for the post and for watching...
@@tonymckenzieofficial How many employees will loose their jobs?
I would say this is a way to enjoy a lot of the amps/pedals that most people can not afford to buy. It surely will not put any Amp companies out of business in fact it will open the playing field for less fortunate folks like myself to test drive that one perfects Amp I want to buy but just can't afford it right now. It will help me narrow down wich Amp I'm going to save up for and buy next. Plus who wants to beat up a $3000.00 Amp while touring when it can stay at home while we use this new affordable pedal that takes less effort to lug around.
But (not sure if you know this) that those 'amps' and 'pedals' etc. are merely just one setting - even move ANY knob a hairs width and its no longer what you thought. That is one of the many problems. Just trust me, this will unlikely ever be like the real tube amps. I get the point and understand that it's all tempting and if it really all did do what is suggested then that could be seen as an advantage. Sadly its not the case, and even the unit I received had issues in installing and authorizing the Tonex on a windows 10 computer - something I found when researching went back to 2001 without a fix from what I saw. Depending on software is really a problem and not a benefit as @KaddysJamKave above suggests. I think he's right.
What for me is a far more pivotal point which very very few reviewers have mentioned is the fact that the business model means only being able to acccess what you pay for in terms of the number of amp and effects models - even though IM do provide access to a couple of included packs - so you are going to have to pony up for any specific models you need which are not included in those packs, making this potentially considerably more expensive than the starting price point. Personally I disagree with that entire pricing model. And in addition to this, the free software version of the Tonex technology which I downloaded onto my PC really wasn't at all convincing and seemed very limited. Based on what I was able to access I would never have any desire to try out either the Tonex or Tonex One pedals. Compare this with companies like Kemper or Axe-FX who include vast amounts of amp and FX models along with continuous updates and improvements for which no further charge is made. I know which business model I prefer.
Personally the TONEX did not really perform for me, with software problem dating back two years. I asked them but no real reply - why was I surprised. A 'cheap' product is exactly that. You do get the item, the software and bugs included and of course unlike Kemper and FA (well maybe, G66 support maybe but fractal supporting me I doubt that). In any case the lack of support is because of the cost involved. Then your scenario jumps in... now pay up or else. It's typical of many 'cheap' items these days. Great point you made and basically I agree. There is so much better for that extra bit of money I think. Thanks for that post and for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial Thanks Tony. Nonetheless it must be said that the Tonex One would have been a really promising product which before cottoning on to the software financial model we discussed I was really quite excited about. In fact, it wasn’t before downloading the Windows and iOS versions of the trial software and seeing how limited it was that I realised that the Tonex One is likely to remain almost entirely dependent on its software, and that software certainly does not live up to the hype in all the TH-cam reviews I’ve watched. In a way I’m glad that I didn’t dive into that particular rabbit hole.
By the way Tony, I wondered if you wouldn’t mind answering a question for me? Is it possible to run digital effects between a load box and the amp speaker, rather than from the line out? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, but my combo lacks an FX loop, so I’m just looking for ways to use time based effects without being affected by the overdriven signal going into the front end of the preamp.
Amp companies have been on a decline for years. Gibson buying Mesa, and now Marshall has been sold.
Plugins, modellers, and captures are the reason for that. Only way they can survive is diversifying or innovating.
Why buy a new amp (from most amp companies offerings) when many haven't changed their core product amps for years, and you can pick used up off Reverb or facebook marketplace for a fraction of the new price?
Will that mean there will be no amps to capture? Nope, there are thousands of amps out there that will run for decades and cycle round the guitar community.
I'm guessing there will also be some demand for new real amps, probably for longer than we all have left on this planet!
I've slimmed my physical amp collection down to just one - I'm not alone!
Are modellers dead? Nope, but I bet my house that most of the big players will release hybrid modeller/capture devices going forward.
The only company so far to really do that is Neural DSP with the QC, but they've overpromised and underdelivered and thus left a bit of a stale taste for many.
But you can only capture one 'snapshot' of an amps position at a time...
True, but that will eventually change. Just like we've seen the recent 'Mikko 2' cab plugin, that manages and interpolates thousands of IR captures. We'll eventually see the same with capture technology.
And let's face it, most real amps only have a few sweet spots in them anyway, so you really don't need to capture every setting. Pre and Post eq'ing and boosts can handle the rest!
But captures don't sound or feel like a real amp...
Us guitarists are stubborn buggers with major resistance to change, but reality is, some of them do.
Pretty much anyone who's tried out the open source NAM capture plugin with a good snapshot will tell you that. And it will respond to volume and touch just the same as the real deal. The resulting null testing can prove the diffences are so small, your ears won't know the difference in a blind test.
Many of us mistakenly listen with our eyes rather than our ears.
I absolutely agree with your comment on this next one though... People really should take youtube reviewers claims & statements with a grain of salt. 99% overdramatize to boost their clicks and are essentially paid to advertise.
I don't believe that capturing 'the same old amps' would actually do anything for the profilers etc. in fact I think they too might then make way for some other idea. Who knows what. I agree that Neural did compromise their standing. The 'snapshot' is also a very valid point of course and its always been that way from what I see. You're pretty much right I think. For me, the 'faffing' around with some not very good software remains a feature that is best left alone, there IS good software too of course (check Kemper and Line6 Helix among others). Not a single channel raised the question about if you were employed at the tube amp factory or you made products specifically for that type of product, and so I decided to create the video just to remind people that it's not 'just' about profilers really, it has a far more important effect on the overall guitarist as they are today. I did carry out a survey of a few hundred people re tube amps... and the resounding total for them was around 82% with the rest being in favor of the other technologies really. Which was interesting. Great post and thanks for watching.
I would never spend $400 on any type of pedal . I don't care to lose my ass on something that won't last. And most modelers all use the same chips that others use. That to me is ridiculous . I bought a used Roland ( boss.).Gt 6, that does it all for $200. That was over 6 yrs.ago . Thanks Tony for showing us .
Well thanks for the post and for waching too.
Is this a game changer? It all depends if AI and the robots prefer tube amps vs digital ?
Brilliant answer :) and thanks for watching.
I think that tube amps will always have a place. Much like the folks who desire a turntable and high end hi-fi tube amps. If you have never had a tube amp and cab in a good room/space that you can rev it up, you may not understand "feel". Everyone talks tone, there is also a feel component to output section/cab and actually moving a large volume of air that puts lead in your pencil. IMO even the most die hard metal player, give him a Fender Twin in a large gymnasium and open that up, it will put a smile on his face. It is a great time to be a musician though, the tools we have at our disposal are mind blowing. Could you imagine teleporting to 1978 and handing EVH a HX Stomp?
EXACTLY! Well broken down to the real issues... thanks for watching.
What’s the difference between an amp modeler and that
Tone X thing? That’s not an amp modeler? If not what is an amp modeler?
And as far as when they say profiling an amp… you mean you could what record my Princeton or Deluxe Reverb or Hiwatt whatever and have it in one of these boxes? If that’s true does it matter what guitar you may use while recording the thing? Does it matter how driven it is etc? My knowledge of this stuff is I own a Tonemaster that I love and a Katanna that I wouldn’t give you a hundred dollars for. Anyway great channel man…
Valid points for sure and thanks for watching.
Good video. I think most of us can see that "infomercial guitar Twitter" has evolved to include the "buy my captures" guys. Not a bad thing really, but the level of hype is unwarranted.
The value prop that the ToneX offers me is that I can walk away from my computer desk and practice in a different part of the house while keeping the tones I have been using with the ToneX software. I chose ToneX because it's affordable and offers me a chance to experience different types of tones. I work at my computer about 30 hours a week and am pretty sick of sitting here tbh.
I have learnt though that in most cases a good headphone tone is "anything with a spot of stereo reverb". :)
Yes the marketing of spin offs is almost as irritating as the hype of the digital gear. I'm sure there are guys, and like yourself, they can work with the technology - and thats good, whatever works, and the comment about the reverb has so much truth in it from the digital stuff I have seen over the years that without reverb (or any of the other very highly level applied effects) on the presets the stuff would sound rather less inviting. Yes I get sick of the screen (I do also at least 30 hours at work with one) and that's without the YT stuff... love the handle too :) Thanks fr watching...
Without the amps or pedals what are the profilers and modelers going to profiles or model?! You're right on brother!
;-) Thanks... and for watching too.
Can the Kemper and Axe-FX do what they do for a fraction of the price they currently sell for now? No ... and that is why the ToneX will force them re-invent their products. They won't go away, but they will have to re-invent themselves and come out with new products that come in at a lower price point. Who wants to pay a higher price for processing in a proprietary box like the Kemper and Axe-FX, when we can do that processing in the computer? I'm a ToneX boy and I love it ... I love it so much that I sold my Kemper simply because I don't need it any longer.
Careful... there are many that want to use the Kemper and Axe-FX at any price. I'm not particularly one of them, but its wrong to assume no one buys them... they do. Like most digital solutions they tend to have some issues, notwithstanding in the case of Tonex, if that company ceased to be - then the unit might not be so palatable when it stops working. Kemper and the others won't stand still, and when they do move it forward I'm sure that it might well be improvement over Tonex, at the very least re the software that failed to install on Win 10 that I experienced. Good points in your post though and thanks for watching.
The only difference between the Tonex and the QC or Kemper is that they made it so you can separate the capture from the usage and performance, so you can travel with it more easily and you use your computer for the processing part of the capture rather than the device itself. In reality this video is 5 years late.
Ha fair enough I guess. The other difference I found was that Kempers software is worlds apart - it works! whereas the IK Multimedia was a bag of er... sh you know what. Thanks for watching.
Tonex, or any other new modelling or capture technology, will not make the tube amps go away. But amps are expensive, they take up lots of room, they're loud, and they're expensive to maintain. I love the idea of a great example of a plexi or a deluxe with some really good pedals. But, it also feels a bit elitist to have an attitude where good tone has to come from some combination of expensive gear. Tonex, or a hx stomp, or an audio interface, paired with studio monitors or some headphones is more affordable for many people, and opens up lots more music-making opportunities than a more traditional rig. The Neural Amp Modeller plugin by Steve Atkinson actually offers capture tech for free. I love amps, but I also like democratising the music-making process.
It's not really 'elitist' - it all comes from the raw material (generally labor in the UK at the least and similarly in the USA) of man hours that contribute to the costs accordingly. And even as I write the cost of 'gas' here in the UK is about $8.24 and yes you DID read that right. The electricity and heating gas is also horrendous. Of course many blame outside elements, when in reality they are typically 'rubbing their hands' for the next cold spot, or day when everyone actually comes to work! The UK and USA are generally IMO subject to cost increases of (in particular) electronic components, trailing edge and leading edge components and variable supplies from some countries that themselves are variable in output. Make no mistake, it all adds up to higher prices for WHATEVER it is you might want to buy. So the 'cheap' solutions might well not remain 'cheap' for long. The post offered a good point of course, but from my personal experience with tech since 1981 and how everything changed dramatically since 2020 I don't see long term supply with cheap components being an option. Thanks for the post appreciated and thanks for watching.
Love your channel, lots of knowledgeable info. BTW have you heard if Messa Boogie will be making amps for Europe any time soon? As you are in the know as they say
Sincerely I wish I was in the know about Mesa Boogie. I have no real info. In fact so bad that recently on vacation I 'found' a couple of Mesa pedals :) Can't find them here in the UK. Honestly its currently dead re Mesa. I wish they were here. Thanks for watching.
I'd be interested to know how many £2000 AxeFX rigs and Kempers are polished and admired each day, never to leave the house and will certainly never see any live action! In truth many full time working musicians can't afford all that stuff, especially these days when promoters expect bands to play for peanuts. It's both ironic and incredibly sad how all those rack-mounted, rack-cased, roadworthy modellers are owned by hobbyists to be played in their bedrooms 😔
Sign of the times its sad to say. Most will tell you it's all good now after 2020 but in reality? That would be far from the truth IMO. Thanks for watching.
Some will never compromise their belief in analog recording, vinyl, true tube amplification, the like.....interesting concern and one I had a couple weeks ago while I wait for my Tone-X to arrive:) Great video, Tony!
Yes you're right I get it. Sometimes different guys tell me about X or Y (whatever and sound related) and often the differences are genuinely small, but other times they are clearly different - analogue to digital is one of them. I do remain a 'believer' in tube amps for sure as the 'feel' is very different to that of emulations, simulations or plainly captures of one tone from an amp that can give thousands. But I still have a need for some of the other platforms as and when I use them. But as a regular choice my first is tube. Thanks for the post and for watching.
I don't think amp modelers will ever put tube amp manufacturers out of business. What will hurt the tube amp manufacturers the most is availability of the tubes they have designed into their amps to get their particular sound. The tube design and the way they are design into and used by the circuits is what gives these tube amps their signature sound. When the manufacturers of the specific tubes that go into these tube amps go out of business, like a couple have already in Germany, that is what will cause tube amp manufactures to start to have problems and could cause them to close their doors just because of the unavailability of components of their amp's designs. The BS we are seeing from the Central Bank System in this world is what is causing the economic problems for these company's and all other companies in the world. So, let's put the blame for any of these company's going out of business where it truly belongs, on the buttheads that think they can control the world and us with their false and inflated monetary systems. The only thing that amp profilers do is create healthy competition between manufactures to build a better mouse trap to sell to the consumer. Competition is good and beneficial to the consumer in any market.
It's a good point re Tubes (or valves as they say in the UK). But there's far more to it in my experience. Even to the plywood they use at Marshall amps! The lead guy said that they had trouble sourcing the really good plywood that they are known for using these days in the cabinets - he said there were issues with poor quality coming through that they were stopping and it had been solved recently. But in my own experience the electronic components remain a real pain for most manufacturers - its not 'just' tubes. I'm not entirely sure that it's just central banks or the other stuff that could be blamed though. Marshall Group (after the sale to a partner company) is worth $350 Million so its not a money shortage problem really. Remember that profilers have been around for at least 11 years (I bought my Kemper in 2011) and the modelers even longer. I can agree with you on the 'control' aspect, I won't post what I might think on all of that - ha some might not like it ;-) I do think you have considered what I said and made a good reply, whereas some guys don't 'get it' about the point I raised. But I can tell you that in manufacturing particularly of components and 'chips' etc. it all remains hard work really. Thanks for a good post and for watching too.
Love it when people ask me ‘why don’t you buy a helix?’ While looking at my big sky, timeline and iridium on my Pedalboard. ‘Oh, it’s the new thing. Everyone has it!’ 🙄🙄🙄
Like other people pointed out here, it’s not just about the gear. Tone comes from the fingers first. Gear is rather secondary. That’s why a good guitarist sounds amazing even on a cheap squire and a cheap amp.
Thanks for this video! Maybe an eye opener for those fanboys out there.
:) Thanks for the post and for watching...
I don't understand videos such as this. it's not a f***ing sportsball competition, LOL. Use whatever works best for you and your budget. The Tonex is great - way better than Kemper (which I've also owned and sold) and better than the vast majority of VST amp sims. By the way. I bought a new tube amp a couple weeks after getting a Tonex - they have different applications for me (the tube amp for playing live, the Tonex for silent recording in my small home studio).
That's OK Christopher - but there really IS a reason that I created the video. It relates to people losing jobs. Have another look carefully and you'll get the reason I created it. You see, Christopher, I think much wider than the every day reviewer and yes I do create video content that IS meaningful if you just follow it all through. In my opinion people losing jobs because of copying of other companies work is not really that good is it? Maybe you disagree or just did not follow my points... but the clue relate to the last points in this video as being the real reason for concern of peoples livelihoods. Thanks.
Tony love ya from Canada.. This Tonex I believe is the tip of the iceberg of whats to come.. I am waiting for the tonex bonex sonex donex that will allow me to load irs or captures of pickups and guitars!!! Then a Pick ir so your Dunlop pick will sound and respond like Dava pick.. Great time to be alive as a guitar Player.. Take care all the best in wealth and health
:) Ha this was a very funny post and great to see. I IMMEDIATELY smiled, and I loved the Pick IR from Dunlop... :) so funny! Brilliant and be careful... they might do it :) Thanks and this one made my day...
Thank you, I am done with TH-cam guitar channel. The Lies has gotten too much for me. Guitar, cable, pedals, tube amplifiers forever. .
Rock on! And I'm not disagreeing :). Thanks for watching.
Hey Tone.
Am I the only bloke that's noticed how the peeps who tell you it's great having 'x' number of virtual amps in one box, are the same people who instead of having a basement full of amps, now have a basement full of amp modellers - instead of a load of 'boxes' that make different sounds, a load of boxes that all sound the same?
You're not alone there. I was discussing this very thing the other night after completing an audio section of one of those boxes. My comment was (and I won't hide it) 'after a while all these digital things sound the same'.. ) and I really did say that. I have looked at most of them since 2011, true I missed the odd one but in general that is my conclusion to this day. They simply don't have the 'feel' factor IMO. Thanks for watching and for the post which is interesting.
So (forgive my ignorance) your mate owns a Hughes and Kettner Tri-Amp III and you pop over to his place with your laptop and Tonex pedal and software. You capture the H&K tones and now you have his amplifier in a pedal? What is more, you can share your digital capture of that amplifier with everyone else who has a Tonex? Yes, I do think this is a game changer, but not in the way you describe. The age of digital amplifiers is with us now. I think the manufacturers will stop making tube amplifiers. Why would they have production lines for multiple different tube amplifiers when they could slim down to one digital thing with the capability of sounding however you want. At some point people will need to hear what the software is generating, so we will need speakers, and this is where the amplifier manufacturers will have to go. I bet there are ways of generating sound differently from rattling carbon granules in a magnetic field. I bet an amplifier manufacturer will make acoustic glass, or sonic paint, or a high-wattage radiator that can sound like a Vox AC30 or anything you like....The tone is just software. The sound is hardware, and soon it won't be thermionic cathode vacuum tubes. That's steam-age technology, but it still powers the Kemper and Boss Katana and everything before.
The problem is of course, when the tube amp guys stop making the very thing that is being 'cloned' (I'll call it that although its far from the truth) then all that will be left is copies of the real deal amps... and NOTHING new to try and clone. That's a bit like buying an ev car and assuming they are great. They will be for a short while... then one of three things happens: 1. New battery (throw the car they cost up to $50,000) 2. Depreciation? write off 50-60% within 2 years (still happy) or 3. Give up and buy the car you wanted before you listened to the hype (a petrol one!). In many ways there really IS an association particularly when there are no 'new' amps to rip off (another assumption by some), when you decide the digital stuff did have that 'something' missing, or lastly, you own 10 amps and are pi**ed at what you lost because of the digital stuff. Me? in the surveys I have ran, typically today (still) there are many that prefer tube amps:
Modelers are dead... 3%, Profilers are king now... 15%, Tube amps are still the best... 58%, The whole thing is hype and the tones of tube amps reign supreme 24%
and another was regarding the mix between the two:
Digital is the way to go, Light, cheap, great tones, software and more. Perfect! 8%
Tube Amps are king... always get THE REAL tone and stop playing computers! 21%
Neither - they both have a place and what works for you is the right answer 71%
Explanation
Neither was my view at the time: It's the ONLY answer that fits the current state of play regarding newer technology and the older technology it claims to simulate. Many tell me that the digital gear is today and tube amps are so 'yesterday' and no one wants them. But that's a myth. Based on the recent videos I have created for (in particular) digital simulators my guess is that there are more guys telling me they won't sell their amps by far and use them 'all the time' than digital followers. Me? I do use both but lean towards tubes.
You made a great post Andy and it is why really I made the video, to make people think. Mainly to make people think about the guys that lose their job!
And lastly, remember this (as I have seen over and over), you become dependent on some software or app that some maker (there are some humdingers out there) either fixes problems with or does not, and if he goes bust and the app stops working look for a trash can. NO ONE ever mentions that ever, but its a perfectly valid reason to maybe not quite like the digital stuff as otherwise someone might.
Thanks for a great post and for watching too.
Hey Tony! Long time watcher here. Do I dare to even say Tonex is beeing beat in it's own game right now by a thing called Neural Amp Modeler or NAM. Have a look into that, I did some videos about that on my channel. Pretty interesting phenomena! Thanks for your videos 👍
Indeed I know of it. Post a link on here to your videos... and why not... On subject matter though, I do think that many might be put off by the hoops to jump through re tech work etc. and remember its open source I think... Thanks for the post always nice to hear guys and yes stick some links on :).
Thanks for the reply, was just looking at your Marshall tour video!
Here are two of the more popular captures. Two of my favourite amps, Plexi and a Mesa Quad Preamp!
th-cam.com/video/DAOoSvVHYxI/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/_xx5r1xIKHs/w-d-xo.html
Take care 👍
Hey! I don't exactly know who are these tonex boys, but I think the point is that this product is extremely competitive, specially for folk on a budget. I use Fractal because its very convenient and sounds great but that doesn't mean that Im selling my amps and wont be interested in other amps in the future is just that they're very loud and expensive
Tube amps can cost as little as £120 ($150). The fallacy of 'they are all expensive' is incorrect really. What I think you meant was 'all the tube amps I want are expensive' :) Thanks for watching.
I’m one of the last few ( in my circle)who prefers playing directly into a tube amp and get THAT amp sound rather than relying on pedals... plus vocal wedges instead of in ears...I do however like the possibility of having MY tube amp sound recorded into a device to take on the road IF the back line provided doesn’t cut it...( which has only happened a handful of times... I am about to experiment with just that... we shall see how it goes.
I ALWAYS record with real amps... big difference to me.
Great video!
I have tried many 'boxes' - they are claimed to be 'perfect' by many, and that was not my experience pretty much on most profilers. The modelers fare a little different too. Best? Still those glass tubes. And I think that the difference IS both tone AND feel... it just plays different through a tube amp. Thanks.
@@tonymckenzieofficial I totally agree!
There's nothing like a tube amp , I can't believe all the people that get these products for nothing and then get paid to do a supposedly honest review , I'm with you Tony , if you put most of these units in front of a good tube amp or in the effects loop they SUCK YOUR TONE , put them into the PA and your playing is lost in cyber space
It often makes me wonder about it all really, have they even used a tube amp? Maybe not? and of course if there is no 'standard' to compare the digital stuff with then there IS NO comparison... then I guess the digital they could describe as 'good'. If you have used tube amps for a time, you will know there still remains a difference between the two. Thanks...
Hi Tony, thanks for your perspective. I don't think that tube amps will disappear but the convenience of modelling and profiling is hitting amp sales hard. The USA instrument amp market has halved since 2005. I think new players/buyers will steer towards modellers/profilers and those wanting a real tube amp will have to know what to do with it to make it worth their while. I have a Tonex and use it with HX FX, so I'm mixing and matching anyway, i admit that I prefer the feel of a real tube amp but have no way to reach useful volumes so I won't be buying a new amp any time soon.
The mix and match is a good compromise IMO... benefits both solutions in a good way. Great point and I agree the sims are really not quite the same. Currently, Mesa (for example) no one has in the UK? What are they playing at? or are the sales really that bad? I doubt they are, I think there are other aspecs afoot somehow. Even Marshall here, I am sure have struggled with this stuff and it would be sad to see it all go... thanks for watching and a good post.
How about reaching nice guitar tones to people who cannot buy those expensive amps?? I,ve been wanting to have a Triple rectifier forever, but cannot afford it, I have to save money for a few years before buying it. So should I just sit and wait??
Nope... Buy a PRS MT15 for $600 and you'll be happy forever... through a real tube amp and I can vouch for the MT15 personally. It's well made too! If you can't get to $600... no problem, buy a used one... Honestly I get the point you're making - but the 'price' is not really the denominator when you can buy an MT15 as I type on eBay for just (UK £) of £399.00. Scarily the same price as a TONEX here in the UK right now. They are chalk and cheese just trust me on that. Thanks.
Ex Kemper, now fm9 here, I have tried tonex and meh, and after testing NAM (open source), I liked NAM more for its simplicity, tones, and community…I left kemper because of profiling, just snapshots, you can’t tweak the amp like an FM9, fractal does the trick, by the way, I will never sell my tube amp, I want more amps though. Now, I must say Kemper was a great product, I have so much fun and love with that brand, if they come out with a new product, I am definitely in!
I for one am convinced that Kemper will be on a new device - the original was 2011 so its 12 years old! (the chips will become obsolete). Often they rework to newer chips etc. and take the opportunity to create newer stronger faster devices :). Good to know that the amps are still there too :) and thanks for the post very interesting and thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial thanks to you, I still have my beloved Mesa Electradyne, thanks for your past videos on that amp! very useful at that time!
Cheers!
Amp modeling will be a thing of the past soon. Everyone will move to captures for the amps maybe not so much the pedals but amps yep! I got an old Kemper,FM9 and just picked up a ToneX. It captures as good as the Kemper and it's 400 bucks. I paid an arm and leg when I bought my Kemper along with a HUGE learning curve. The ToneX is much easier imo. Real amps will never go away cuz there is nothing like playing thru the real deal. I have several rare amps and i will never sell those, they will go to my kids when I'm gone and hopefully they will plug in a guitar, crank it up and enjoy!
:) I'm sure the amps already made will stay, but who knows about the future? I do think though that simulations offer only part of the answer... as you sort of confirm by keeping the tube amps :) Indeed I'm keeping my tube amps too :) and thanks for watching.
I've said it before and say it till blue ...Keep the options alive ...what works for some doesn't need to be for all.. Love my Tube amps love maybe not as much my digital stuff. Get different things from both. Heck they have modeler guitars but thats not what it's about for me when I'm using gear and my rigs it's about the guitar more than anything else with some great options.
Very good point... I love particular guitars too and those different platforms show different things for me. I do use both, but my tendency is towards tube amps because its a studio... thanks for the post and for watching.
I used to play live with a Marshall combo and a Roland Jazz Chorus stereo amp (JC 120). Lugging those things around was such a pain in the butt that I eventually replaced them with a Seymour Duncan convertible amp. At the time, I was able to get pretty close to the Marshall sound and the Jazz Chorus sound in one amp without having to lug around a ton of stuff. Fast forward 20 years and now we have modelers. I think eventually everything is going to be digital. With computing speeds, sample rates, and bit depth that surpass human hearing, it is inevitable in my opinion. The bottom line is "what does it sound like?" I bought the Tonex Max software (no pedal yet) and am very impressed. I'd almost be tempted to play through my laptop live if I could get it to switch amps without glitching LOL.
I do think it is sad that these tube amp manufacturers may no longer exist in a few years. But technological evolution is sort of inevitable.
Marshall and all the other tube makers ARE now suffering for sure. Sadly. And that was part of the point of the video - about the employees who have been making those incredible amps all these years.... discarded like some sort of trash :( very sad indeed. Thanks for watching.
@@tonymckenzieofficial At the risk of sounding philosophical, I believe the electric guitar, compared to other acoustic instruments, is relatively new. For instance, the violin has been around for hundreds of years, and perhaps even a thousand in some form. The electric guitar, on the other hand, is a recent invention, and I think tube amps were simply used to make it louder because they were available. It's hard to predict what guitars will evolve into 200 years from now. Will tube amps be just a blip on the musical instrument evolutionary timeline, or will they have staying power? I hope for the latter.
The one thing the modelers cannot replace is that smell of the tubes cooking! There's something magical about that smell when you walk into a studio! But you also have to think that for someone who does not have deep pockets who cannot afford a thousand different amps this is a viable affordable way to get a myriad of tones. I'm sure he's going to be people that try this pedal out and go through a gazillion amps and decide they've found one that they say I have to have the real version of. This could be a real decision maker for people.
It's true that some guys will like the Tonex. But for a REAL review of the Tonex and its software watch my review that highlights some of the frustrations that the unit offers for free... and believe me, the £400 (or $) pales in to insignificance if you have to buy a different laptop or PC to make the software work - as I show in my review... sure it can work for some, but I'm personally used to having gear that works, each and every time, and in a simple user way, not spending hours on end looking why it won't work, or indeed scouring the internet and finding that the problem has existed since 2021. That changes things ;-) Ha I'm not sure about the tube smell? Hey is that illegal :) My review is here: th-cam.com/video/FrS1hwOuLm4/w-d-xo.html and thanks for watching....