Many years ago, when my daughter was just a few years old, my Christian wife had an affair (with a Krishna member) and broke up our family. My daughter spent about 3/4 of her time with me (her mother wanted her free time to date). I endeavored to give my daughter the mental tools she needed to make good decisions rather than imposing belief and behavior without a moral explanation. Her mother did as her own mother had, dictating rules and morals, and raising her to accept only Christianity as truth. Some years later, when my daughter was about 10, she commented that she no longer wanted to live with her mother. When I asked why, I was offered several well-considered, intelligent reasons. But one was striking: "You teach me what to do. Mommy tells me what to do." In that instant, I immediately realized that my ex had basically taken the process by which she had become indoctrinated into religion and applied it whenever it was convenient to do so in other ways with our daughter. There is no difference between a parent imposing their will upon a child merely by insisting "Because I said so" and religions imposing their order "because it says so in the bible". Morals imposed are not morals at all. And if they do not have to be imposed, then they are not needed in the first place.
Really enjoy your show. I am an agnostic, having just over a year ago deconverted from Christianity. I was a born-again Christian for 33 years. After many lively arguments and discussions with my inquisitive Christian son and a few with my equally inquisitive Christian daughter, about Bible issues such as contradictions, god's cruelty etc., I finally got the courage or nerve to start questioning it myself. After 8 months of intensive research into the historicity and archeological evidence - or lack thereof - of Christianity, I deconverted. My son and daughter both on their own deconverted as well. Thanks partly to you Dan, through reading some of your books and watching many of your debates. Enjoyed this show on morality. I like this quote by David Marzolino - "Morality is doing right no matter what you are told; religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right".
I just saw the Oprah episode (I assume) from the 80s with Annie Gaylor and her husband. I'm 21 years old and I absolutely commend what you guys did. You were and are still ahead of your time. Thank you.
It is obvious why finding religion is so popular in prison; it is the best way to absolve yourself of any personal responsibility for your actions. Plus parole boards just love to hear religious rhetoric, especially if it rhetoric based on Christian dogma.
Dan Barker had me in stitches when he asked, @ 23:50, "Do televangelists DO MORE THAN LAY people?" GET OUTTA HERE! This is just brilliant!!! And brilliantly funny! Also, this line is worthy of being etched in stone and then displayed somewhere for everyone to see: "Theists are afraid people will think for themselves. Atheists are afraid they WON'T ! " Just how PRECIOUS is that? And how TRUE!! Oh my, oh my ...
Thank you FFRF . The 1st Amendment to the Constitution is for believers and unbelievers alike. As a freethinker/ unbeliever no longer associated with Catholicism, I can only hope that more people will see the importance and value of free thought, personal responsibility and a more dignified life.
The real reason behind this sort of nonsense is to dehumanize those outside the tribe, which in turn normalizes abuse up to and including murdering non-tribe members.
I remember watching that Oprah show live. I was wondering why the atheists weren't more assertive. It took me a while to realize that at the time this non-belief was seen as horror, I was shocked to learn that. Now that there are only 1/3 of the world's population who tick the Christian box, we are living in a much better reasoning society. More and more people are leaving their nonsense religious beliefs, I feel Google with its instant knowledge has helped in that.
Right but being moral has nothing to do with being Christian- the Christian argument is that there is no logical basis for morality without a moral law giver. Atheists can be more moral than Christians. I don’t think any rational person is arguing that atheists are amoral.
GOLDEN RULE: Ancient Egypt - circa 2000 BCE “Do for one who may do for you, That you may cause him thus to do.” - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110 Socrates - circa 400 BCE “Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others.” Buddhism - circa 500 BCE “Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” - Udana-Varga 5:18 IMMORALITY IN THE BIBLE: Slavery, genital mutilation, diminishing women, fear, judgement, hypocrisy, anger, ego, punishment, torture, human sacrifice... CONTRADICTIONS AMONG CHRISTIANS AND THEIR BIBLE: "Don't judge lest you be judged." God judges. Christians judge everything and everybody. HARSHLY. People who differ in politics, sexual orientation, beliefs like us. Murder is a sin for them. Yet, they support the death penalty. They are supposed to speak kind words, yet they are the ones holding signs telling gays will burn in hell. They are the ones promoting modern day slavery where you have to worship some cruel and wicked dictator. "Do to others what you would have them do to you" but "eye for an eye" CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN WHAT IS ACTUALLY IN THE BIBLE AND WHAT CHRISTIANS BELIEVE: In revelation, it clearly outlines that people will be judged one day. Right? Judgement day. Well, according to the bible, that day has not happened, yet. Some biblical scholars estimate 1000 years off from now? Anyways. My point is, what is up with Christians saying "oh, now they are in heaven blah blah blah" No! They cannot be! Which only supports MY claim that... Christianity is an illogical, irrational belief system, designed for those that don't have their own moral compass or ability to think critically, or work out whatever issues they have so that they don't have to be protected and saved from some fictitious sky god. It is immoral in that they indoctrinate young children when they are impressionable and then they grow up believing this rubbish. And for all the Christians out there that think so low of us atheists? Don't. For those that feel sad for us? Don't. Some of us actually feel very sad for you. As Christopher Hitchens says, if it turned out that this god of yours was real, we wouldn't want to worship it anyway. We being me and him. I can't speak for all atheists. In fact, some atheists wish they could believe, there just isn't enough evidence for them to do so! But not me. I am an anti-theist. The idea of some life that never ends in a placid world where I have to worship a cruel and wicked lord? No thank you. So, before you start spouting some bullshit about morality, think twice about what your religion really is about and the kind of people it is churning out. Because to the rest of us, many of them don't feel so nice to be around. They don't feel kind of compassionate. They don't feel accepting of others that are different from them. Acceptance is kindness. Seeing the best in others no matter what. Isn't that what morality is all about? It is to me. So, I urge you, to ask yourself, what is morality really? You may find you come up with a different answer.
Since I didn't grow up going to church, I've had people ask me that very question. *"How can you be moral if you don't believe in God?"* or *"How can you be moral without reading the Bible, or believing in Jesus Christ?"* I believe it *is* possible to do. I believe with the right guidance in life growing up, and with the right discipline, then you can grow up to be a kind, moral, respectful person, and you didn't need God's help to do that, nor did you need Jesus Christ. :)
My desire to be a really good person is the strong motivation. I am kind to animals , against slavery , and any form of oppression. When I was religious I think I may have guilty of coercion by proxy
Well yes of course, there's tons of moral people that have never even heard of Jesus or any religious system like Hinduism or Buddhism, Mormonism, J Witnesses, etc
Though my life a high percentage of the dishonest and people acting immoral are people that claimed to be religious. Plenty of supposed religious people refer to their religion when acting immorally to others.
I've been told that, as I don't believe in god and haven't since I was seven years old I'm going to hell. Isn't that a nice sweet christian thing to say. Christians say things to children like that all the time to try to scare them and it does. Is that the right thing to do, is it the good or decent thing to do to a small child?
Why the preponderance of God when It's people that run America? You act like we are still in service to the crown. And as far as "God", you shouldn't try and judge what you do not have the capacity to understand. In today's world, some form of discipline is necessary. Wouldn't you agree? What do the kids learn from each other, with no role models? Only their bad behaviours that parents are not able to keep up with or can only frustrate themselves about?
9:35 Dan, you were a Christian minister for 19 years? How can you straw-man the moral argument? Genuinely curious. I don’t think any rational Christian accepts the premise that you’ve laid out. I have never met (nor do I believe) any thinking Christian that holds the view of ‘being religious means you are automatically moral.’
Many years ago, when my daughter was just a few years old, my Christian wife had an affair (with a Krishna member) and broke up our family. My daughter spent about 3/4 of her time with me (her mother wanted her free time to date). I endeavored to give my daughter the mental tools she needed to make good decisions rather than imposing belief and behavior without a moral explanation. Her mother did as her own mother had, dictating rules and morals, and raising her to accept only Christianity as truth.
Some years later, when my daughter was about 10, she commented that she no longer wanted to live with her mother. When I asked why, I was offered several well-considered, intelligent reasons. But one was striking: "You teach me what to do. Mommy tells me what to do." In that instant, I immediately realized that my ex had basically taken the process by which she had become indoctrinated into religion and applied it whenever it was convenient to do so in other ways with our daughter. There is no difference between a parent imposing their will upon a child merely by insisting "Because I said so" and religions imposing their order "because it says so in the bible".
Morals imposed are not morals at all. And if they do not have to be imposed, then they are not needed in the first place.
That was well written and thoughtful. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Great comment. Very good insight. 👏
Fantastic parenting on your part. And your daughter was very insightful at such a young age.
Teaching>Commanding
The correct question should be: 'How can you be moral if you DO believe in God?'
Exactly. Look at how many religious people are in the penal system compared to atheists. It's astounding.
"Is it reasonable? Is it kind?"
Words to live by.
Really enjoy your show. I am an agnostic, having just over a year ago deconverted from Christianity.
I was a born-again Christian for 33 years. After many lively arguments and discussions with my inquisitive Christian son and a few with my equally inquisitive Christian daughter, about Bible issues such as contradictions, god's cruelty etc., I finally got the courage or nerve to start questioning it myself. After 8 months of intensive research into the historicity and archeological evidence - or lack thereof - of Christianity, I deconverted. My son and daughter both on their own deconverted as well.
Thanks partly to you Dan, through reading some of your books and watching many of your debates.
Enjoyed this show on morality. I like this quote by David Marzolino - "Morality is doing right no matter what you are told; religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right".
What do you mean when you say you were ‘born again’? I say the same thing about myself at the moment. Wondering what it means to you.
I just saw the Oprah episode (I assume) from the 80s with Annie Gaylor and her husband. I'm 21 years old and I absolutely commend what you guys did. You were and are still ahead of your time. Thank you.
It is obvious why finding religion is so popular in prison; it is the best way to absolve yourself of any personal responsibility for your actions. Plus parole boards just love to hear religious rhetoric, especially if it rhetoric based on Christian dogma.
*BINGO!!!*
Dan Barker had me in stitches when he asked, @ 23:50, "Do televangelists DO MORE THAN LAY people?"
GET OUTTA HERE! This is just brilliant!!! And brilliantly funny!
Also, this line is worthy of being etched in stone and then displayed somewhere for everyone to see:
"Theists are afraid people will think for themselves.
Atheists are afraid they WON'T ! "
Just how PRECIOUS is that? And how TRUE!!
Oh my, oh my ...
Thank you FFRF . The 1st Amendment to the Constitution is for believers and unbelievers alike. As a freethinker/ unbeliever no longer associated with Catholicism, I can only hope that more people will see the importance and value of free thought, personal responsibility and a more dignified life.
The real reason behind this sort of nonsense is to dehumanize those outside the tribe, which in turn normalizes abuse up to and including murdering non-tribe members.
No
I remember watching that Oprah show live. I was wondering why the atheists weren't more assertive. It took me a while to realize that at the time this non-belief was seen as horror, I was shocked to learn that.
Now that there are only 1/3 of the world's population who tick the Christian box, we are living in a much better reasoning society. More and more people are leaving their nonsense religious beliefs, I feel Google with its instant knowledge has helped in that.
A good person will do good things. A bad person will do bad things.
It takes religion for a good person to do bad things.
Ask a Hindu/Muslim/Jew/Buddhist/etc : How Can You Be Moral If You Dont Believe in Christianity?
Right but being moral has nothing to do with being Christian- the Christian argument is that there is no logical basis for morality without a moral law giver. Atheists can be more moral than Christians. I don’t think any rational person is arguing that atheists are amoral.
Morals were around a long time before the bible was even written...
IIRC, that Oprah episode was the first time I ever heard the phrase, "Nothing Fails Like Prayer". I've used that phrase a lot in the last 30+ years.
I love this show. Funny enough I watch it ever Sunday.
...what else would you be doing on a Sunday? 😈
I always watch it on Sundays too - a very good use of my time😁
GOLDEN RULE:
Ancient Egypt - circa 2000 BCE “Do for one who may do for you, That you may cause him thus to do.” - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110
Socrates - circa 400 BCE “Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others.”
Buddhism - circa 500 BCE “Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” - Udana-Varga 5:18
IMMORALITY IN THE BIBLE:
Slavery, genital mutilation, diminishing women, fear, judgement, hypocrisy, anger, ego, punishment, torture, human sacrifice...
CONTRADICTIONS AMONG CHRISTIANS AND THEIR BIBLE: "Don't judge lest you be judged." God judges. Christians judge everything and everybody. HARSHLY. People who differ in politics, sexual orientation, beliefs like us.
Murder is a sin for them. Yet, they support the death penalty.
They are supposed to speak kind words, yet they are the ones holding signs telling gays will burn in hell.
They are the ones promoting modern day slavery where you have to worship some cruel and wicked dictator.
"Do to others what you would have them do to you" but "eye for an eye"
CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN WHAT IS ACTUALLY IN THE BIBLE AND WHAT CHRISTIANS BELIEVE:
In revelation, it clearly outlines that people will be judged one day. Right? Judgement day. Well, according to the bible, that day has not happened, yet. Some biblical scholars estimate 1000 years off from now? Anyways. My point is, what is up with Christians saying "oh, now they are in heaven blah blah blah" No! They cannot be! Which only supports MY claim that...
Christianity is an illogical, irrational belief system, designed for those that don't have their own moral compass or ability to think critically, or work out whatever issues they have so that they don't have to be protected and saved from some fictitious sky god. It is immoral in that they indoctrinate young children when they are impressionable and then they grow up believing this rubbish.
And for all the Christians out there that think so low of us atheists? Don't. For those that feel sad for us? Don't. Some of us actually feel very sad for you. As Christopher Hitchens says, if it turned out that this god of yours was real, we wouldn't want to worship it anyway. We being me and him. I can't speak for all atheists. In fact, some atheists wish they could believe, there just isn't enough evidence for them to do so! But not me. I am an anti-theist. The idea of some life that never ends in a placid world where I have to worship a cruel and wicked lord? No thank you.
So, before you start spouting some bullshit about morality, think twice about what your religion really is about and the kind of people it is churning out. Because to the rest of us, many of them don't feel so nice to be around. They don't feel kind of compassionate. They don't feel accepting of others that are different from them. Acceptance is kindness. Seeing the best in others no matter what. Isn't that what morality is all about? It is to me. So, I urge you, to ask yourself, what is morality really? You may find you come up with a different answer.
Well said 😀👌
why isn't the golden rule one of the ten Commandments?
I like the format of this channel. The topic of morality is, IMHO, the most important topic - whether you are a theist or an atheist.
And in the beginning man created god and found it was profitable.
😀 Snake oil is very profitable.
Morality precedes religion, not the other way round.
Yes. A better question would be “Is it possible to be moral with God?”
Since I didn't grow up going to church, I've had people ask me that very question. *"How can you be moral if you don't believe in God?"* or *"How can you be moral without reading the Bible, or believing in Jesus Christ?"* I believe it *is* possible to do. I believe with the right guidance in life growing up, and with the right discipline, then you can grow up to be a kind, moral, respectful person, and you didn't need God's help to do that, nor did you need Jesus Christ. :)
My desire to be a really good person is the strong motivation. I am kind to animals , against slavery , and any form of oppression. When I was religious I think I may have guilty of coercion by proxy
Barker is a good guy.
I'll stay an unbeliever. If no god nor jesus has shown up *BY NOW* , faith and belief will continue to wane.
I always learn from your programs.
Most moral people that live religion free feel MORE responsible for themselves due to the fact we DONT cover our ass with sin forgiveness...
You can be moral without God and you can definitely be immoral and use God as a cover.
But what do you mean ‘without God’?
I agree. good job.
Good presentation- better than the last Ask an Atheist 👍😄
I believe it's possible to have good moral values without God or Jesus Christ.
Well yes of course, there's tons of moral people that have never even heard of Jesus or any religious system like Hinduism or Buddhism, Mormonism, J Witnesses, etc
Though my life a high percentage of the dishonest and people acting immoral are people that claimed to be religious. Plenty of supposed religious people refer to their religion when acting immorally to others.
Nice video! You guys should try to get Dawkins or Dillahunty on the show!
I've been told that, as I don't believe in god and haven't since I was seven years old I'm going to hell. Isn't that a nice sweet christian thing to say. Christians say things to children like that all the time to try to scare them and it does. Is that the right thing to do, is it the good or decent thing to do to a small child?
I like the meme "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing." 😈
He didn't even die lol he allegedly resurrected after 1.5 days and went to heaven alive. And that's supposed to be a sacrifice? Lmao.
Look around, there are plenty of people who believe in god and are immoral.
When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. This is my religion.
Only the sith deals in absolutes
Only? Really? Sounds pretty absolute! 😅
That voting point is really relevant rn
We need after school atheist groups in schools across the country.
Definitely not.
Annie Laurie: You are looking better than when I first met you ten years ago. What's your secret anyway?
9:05
It doesn’t matter what is more ‘noble’ (although I disagree even with the initial proposition)
What matters is what is true.
How do you tell people in the south (the bible belt) that you're an atheist and not lose friends or be rejected at work by your coworkers?
8:10 what is reason? What is kindness? Who defines this?
Why the preponderance of God when It's people that run America? You act like we are still in service to the crown. And as far as "God", you shouldn't try and judge what you do not have the capacity to understand. In today's world, some form of discipline is necessary. Wouldn't you agree? What do the kids learn from each other, with no role models? Only their bad behaviours that parents are not able to keep up with or can only frustrate themselves about?
8:40 that doesn’t make any sense. What you do IS what you believe. You cannot separate the two.
Don't give them any money they will not preach.
9:35
Dan, you were a Christian minister for 19 years? How can you straw-man the moral argument? Genuinely curious. I don’t think any rational Christian accepts the premise that you’ve laid out. I have never met (nor do I believe) any thinking Christian that holds the view of ‘being religious means you are automatically moral.’
what a beautiful woman annie is
What an inappropriate comment