hi tim, just wondering, for your software dev course, does it guarantee a remote job or at least you guys can assist me in getting one after i finish the course? im not from the US.
@@lycan2494 yes the program has an entire section that breaks down how to land a job from crafting your resume and linkedin to showing you the types of roles to apply to.
Stack overflow actually has a survey where most professional software engineers have a CS degree. CS degree people are still preferred over people with any other degree or no other degree. People hiring software developers prefer people with CS degree or people with Engineering, Math or Physics degree. You don't need a degree is a myth perpetuated by online influencers and bootcamps to sell their courses.
People that don’t get a college education have to come to these TH-cam pages to learn more often than not. It’s in their interest to convince people that a degree is not necessary lol.
The stats overall demonstrate that people with a degree earn AT LEAST million dollars more over their life time. Even if you took out 100k in debt, you're still earning that money back. Also if you go to college on a campus, just being able to network with people before they've hit their success etc. There's so many opportunities at even mid tier schools to expand your skills and set you up for getting a job it's not even funny. You just have to take the time to actually leverage the career fairs, the clubs etc.
@ceejay1353 I don't actually believe everyone should go to college. Also in Anglo Saxon countries there is a push for everyone to go to college which has lowered standards for everyone. I think it's best to have apprenticeship program even for IT related stuff, and more people should go to that instead of college. Also useless degrees in Arts and sciences should be banned.
@@rkWilson fact is, most people that go to these bootcamps and apprenticeships probably couldn't hack it in a college computer science degree. The amount of math and engineering you need to learn to understand the theory behind this stuff is not something you will pick up easily teaching yourself or in a bootcamp. Hence why people who get their degrees make significantly more money on average than those who don't, especially in this field
It is actually not a myth. We have been instructed by HR to appoint a person if they have the required experience, even if they do not have a degree. I do not have a degree and I am the highest paid developer in our company, where there are some developers with degrees.
Well obviously. If you have 1000 applicants and 200 of them have degrees, beyond that there is no difference then you will focus on the 200 with a degree
Back in the day....(aka late 70's early 80's). IT gigs were pretty easy to get. I "dropped out" from a "big 10" school with a background in EE and CS. I took a job in Fortune-500 company on the East coast in IT Computer Operations. The shop was implementing DEC systems into their remote locations. I was one of the few people there who had extensive (albeit academic) training on DEC systems. One year later, they promoted me into "development". They kept promoting me...and I stayed there for 4+ years. I was also lucky that my "boss" (aka project leader) was also my technical "mentor". That's when I really learned about development vs. production, platform interfacing, real world "problems" and my favorite...memo writing and user-level communications. Mentoring, speaking&writing and overall "social comfort" (with other peers) are really important in your first job.
Tim is absolutely out of touch with reality. Computer science isn’t a degree about software engineering. It is a theoretical degree on computers. Him saying he got a job, is also not a point because he is a big creator in cs, and that is legit nepotism. Also with cs degree, it depends on location, etc. and going to college for a lot of people is a backup, maybe small percentage are not going to college in the us. Telling people not to go is just delusional. Snake oil video
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME OUT !!! does everyone who choses CS as a major is already an EXPERT in computers .. before high school ?? i wanna do CS but i don't know that well about computers.....
As a CS degree holder, this is actually a really good video about the topic. And I really agree with the part of you still need to learn outside the degree
It is because you went to an unremarkable school. If you went to a decent school you wouldn't be making this statement. I have seen the difference between a top tier and a lower tier school first hand in Computer Science. :)
@@gdawg77123 so have I. Even top tier graduates are still learning a lot in the workforce. I’ve actually worked with those top tier grads and they have made things worse because of ego. But that’s okay, we all are learning something in the workforce
@@cody_codes_youtube I can still pick up your insecurity here. What you learn in the field will always be trivial, you get your core in a very good school. And yes, school quality matters, especially in skill jobs like this. A good school doesn't mean you are competent, but it is one of the main pillars. People from unremarkable schools always try to compensate with non-academic field-specific stuff. If you came from a top tier school, you wouldn't think like this. It is as simple as that. Of course, you will learn outside of your degree. But your competency will come from the rigor you've been through in your degree, given that you paid attention in your school..
@@gdawg77123 ha, okay man. I’m just going off my own experience. No need to get weird on TH-cam calling people out for not good enough schools, name calling, etc. You’re not wrong, but your stance is overly aggressive and if you have the experience you’re alluding to, then you should know it’s all nuanced and depends on the situation.
Yeah the degree route was much better for me. Started self teaching myself and had personal projects, but didn’t actually start getting interviews until I started a post bacc in computer science that was less than $10K from a state school. I know you’re trying to sell your course, but there are definitely affordable CS degrees out there, and you’re qualified for internships whereas before you were not. You can really stand out from the crowd with a degree with all the competition out there.
and it's better in other countries like Australia where you only have to repay your student loans if you start making money above a certain pay grade. So get your bachelor and a tech job = you win, get your bachelor but no tech job = you don't lose.
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME OUT !!! does everyone who choses CS as a major is already an EXPERT in computers .. before high school ?? i wanna do CS but i don't know that well about computers.....
@@SANIA-ko8hh At least at my uni (and they're required for accreditation so probably every one in Australia) there were first year courses that were piss easy and on a lower level than the CS content from high school (which wasn't advanced either). If you put effort into those courses you should be fine for the real meat, while the average student will skip the lectures. To check this go to the CS program of the uni you are looking for, and in the first-year look for courses with "X Fundamentals" or "Introduction to Y". Bridging courses before you are in uni for real may also be an option. But tbh I doubt you need to worry at all because CS is a specific subset of computing you'd only be prepared for if you already know how to code, which uni will of course teach. I knew people who would go to me expecting me to fix a problem on their computer when CS has nothing to do with that and you might be doing the opposite of that.
You don't need a Computer Science degree per se but it is a lot easier for you to get a job compared to others - all else being equal. Math, Physics, Engineering degrees are somewhat equivalent for most companies. 1. Fundamentals of Programming - It takes a bit of time to actually understand well. Usually, 1 year in a college setting. A 3 month bootcamp is too short for most people. 2. Data Structures and Algorithms - Very important class in tech interviews. 3. Mathematics - A CS program usually requires up to Linear algebra. This is extremely important for machine learning. Statistics is very important for Data Science. 4. Computer Science - Its good to actually know how a computer works from the electrical components, logic gates, memory, machine code, Assembly, operating systems, compilers. Its like having deep knowledge in Biology and Chemistry for a healthcare professional worker. 5. Electives and Specialties - There are programming specialties that are very difficult to obtain without college. Computer Engineering, Bioinformatics, Quant Finance, Physics, Operations Management, Data Science. 6. Networking. Many of your classmates will be your peers. They may help you along your career with advice, referrals, and information. There are clubs that help with tech interviews. There are events like Hackathons, competitive programming. There is also Alumni support, meetups, mentoring.. 7. Career Resources. Establish collegeds are feeders to the big companies like MAANGs, Consulting, Investment Banking, Government, Military, Fortune 500s, etc.
I have yet to see a job posting for data science that does not have a degree requirement. A lot of them require a minimum of masters too. Which is dumb because almost all my learning has come from Codecademy and building my own projects. I think no degree is more for SWE.
You can definitely do data science without a degree. The problem is I’m your competition……… The military veteran with a BA Economics and a graduate degree Analytics/Public Administration... Several years of professional experience and an applied point of view… And I’m not even the stiffest competition. So, you’re spot on.
I’d say go to community college first and get the pre-reqs out the way then transfer to a 4 year. At a cc you can easily knock off 60 credits of a 120 credit program fairly quick (just make sure the classes transfer to your desired 4-year). It’s much cheaper and flexible than a 4 year so you have more time to learn additional skills and work a job alongside doing school whilst saving a lot of money.
Degrees Can only give you fundamentals but that is important too. Details comes from your own time. My fundamentals still help (34 years later) to take IT decisions.
@@jeli780 the basics python crash course. then some freecode camp. then i decided to make projects, using full stack Django. When I was lost, i would see a youtube video, chat gpt or read the documentation. Basically 80% actually building projects, 20% theory.
@@jeli780 80% building projects, 20% studying theory. i started with freecodecamp, then started building projects using fullstack Django. Whenever i stuck, i searched youtube, googling, chat gpt.... I didnt pay for anything. When I created a portfolio, I found a job after 22 days of applications as a backend laravel developer.
A portfolio is better than a degree. As a software company owner, I've met with multiple local universities looking for opportunities to hire grads or offer internships. The curricula are generally theoretical or outdated tech where they attempt to be hands-on. Sitting on the sidelines for 4-5 years in a fast-moving field like software is obviously going to leave you behind. To pay $100K-$200K for that downtime could permanently derail your personal finances. I'd only recommend a degree if you do it in parallel with working on learning skills on practical projects which could help you launch a product or build a good portfolio.
You’re correct in some CS programs being antiquated, but also a degree gives you great foundational knowledge, and will allow you to be more flexible in a shifting market. Also, the barrier to entry is rising, due to the influx of new talent. Companies need to filter the applicant pool and unfortunately the self-taught are usually the first filtered out.
Hi, what or which course would you recommend? I’m an Optometrist, but want to learn to code, to improve my understanding of our website and also to have technology working along selling eyeglasses online. Thank you for your help in advance.
I used to think back in january 2021 that I'd take a few CS courses at a local institute of technology and get a certificate and work as a software dev. Turns out after 24 credits, I realized I needed to know WAY more. Now, with 54 credits under my belt, I have a junior dev job, but I still feel I should know more if I ever want to work as a senior dev and plan to finish at least another 21 credits part time. But I'll probably realistically take another 30 credits or more.
1. You don't need a CS degree if your only goal is to find a programming job. 2. But to get into a top company, it's far easier if you have a cs degree from a top tier university. 3. People always say skills trumps degree. I agree, but i'm not sure why not both? It's really competitive to land a job in a top company. You do want every edge you can get. So for me, I want a top cs degree + great skills at the same time.
I am 42 with a degree in mechanical engineering, currently teaching myself to code. I would warn youngsters strongly about taking a gap year. I've got friends where one year became two and basically never stopped. I wanted to sail yachts, my parents said get a degree then you can do whatever you want. It was worth it. However I know how stupidly expensive tertiary education is in the USA, which is likely a large percentage of viewership here. To the people without a degree, your motivation and attitude towards work will count more. Unfortunately, without the degree you may sometimes struggle to get that door to open. But also know that most jobs one will get through contacts, or direct contact. So network as much as you can. To date I've still never gotten a job via a recruiter.
EE speaking here, the IT world is growing faster than the university system is producing talent. Let a multi-year drought come along the watch doors close to people without degrees.
I went to school for CS (online postbacc program) in my late 20's after completing a degree in music at age 22. I am 2 classes away from finishing my degree after 3 years as a part-time student. I got a really good job in support software engineering after my first year of school, largely due to the skills I gained in school. However, I cannot recommend getting a CS degree if you already have a college degree because of how much time/money it takes to complete. I think having a bachelor's degree is useful, and getting one in CS is especially useful, but if you already have a degree or have no interest in going to college, then don't do it. There are more time/financially efficient ways to do so. I definitely could have got my same job or a different one in software engineering without being in the degree program, and now it feels like I'm just finishing the program for the sake of it.
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME OUT !!! does everyone who choses CS as a major is already an EXPERT in computers .. before high school ?? i wanna do CS but i don't know that well about computers.....
@@SANIA-ko8hh Hey, I was not computer savvy until I started studying computer science. Most of the people I know who are software engineers did not study CS or do any coding before college. If you have generally good creative problem skills, you should be able to thrive in a CS program. Success is what you put into it, no matter the field. There will always be people who are more experienced and know more, but expertise in something is a long-game.
The bootcamp/self-taught era is pretty much over. CS is a popular degree now and tons of graduates each year. If you are self-taught you are competing with new grads with a formal education, and experienced professionals who were laid off. Companies got burned by bad bootcamp grads. A goofy 3-month bootcamp isn't going to make you competitive. Colleges also provide internship/networking/career fair opportunities.
2.5 years in Mechanical Engineering here. Ive always saw the boot camp. Never saw 3 months. They are always 6 months to 12 months. It seems to me that the longer the course, the more legit it is. They get rid of all the core courses and teach hands on all the courses that are needed. At least what they claim. They also guaranteed job or money back
I agree. No one is hiring bootcamp grads because, to be honest, the computer science field is over saturated as it is now one of the most popular majors and a lot of people are graduating with them. As seen in this video, doing bootcamps might help you be a better programmer but don't count on the bootcamp for a job alone.
25 year professional developer in NYC. None of my comp sci training was relevant to any of my jobs, in particular the calculus, probability theory, discreet math, etc. But gone are the days of the face to face interview where you had the opportunity to sell yourself. I got many jobs just by doing a good whiteboard of my last project. Now you go thru multiple levels of testing before you meet a human being.
Guess what? two people have impeccable hands-on skills. One with a degree, one without. Who gets hired? Go get a degree guys, don't listen to this guy.
ANY ONE CAN CODE BUT DEGREES PROVIDE PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS ALONG WITH MATH. plus it provides high demand job security there is wide range of fields in computer science. computer architecture foundations of network and ML and AI and having analytic foundations really matters in problem solving and mathematical solutions in computer science
If you want to go the self taught route YOU DO NOT NEED TO PAY A SINGLE PENNY TO LEARN! There are many many many free resources for absolutely everything to get a software dev job. If you want to get a degree, You can earn world class degrees online from home part time. Georgia tech has a M.S. program for about 7k. UT Austin for about 10k,. Even Stanford has an online compsci degree that you can do for I think like 45k (if you can get into the program, graduate and somehow can't get a job, that's a you problem). You can earn mid tier degrees online part time for about 1k or less per course for undergrads (SNHU, UND). There's even self placed courses at UND (not the full degree). So you CAN go to even top and mid teir schools without going into massive debt, you just need to make a plan for it. If you want more software development skills, you also need to plan for it by either picking a different school/program or getting more of that on the side.
I am 42 I landed a job that is a hybrid network engineer : software engineer. I started college at 40 because job paying for it. I am almost done 6 months left. I would say I have learned like Tim said about 25% useful things. I also agree it takes a certain person to do this. I don’t think I am a good coder but I am a good network engineer so combining software makes me acceptable.
There are colleges in Europe which includes practical work experience as part if their program so once you graduate, you actually have both the degree and experience to land a job and to make it even better it's totally free for EU citizens and in fact many countries here in the EU offer free University degrees such as Germany and Malta.
However, the programs in Germany are exceptionally hard in the first semester, as the college is trying to trim the fat. Alone at TUM the failure expectancy is about 70%
I went back to college in January of 2023 for a BS in computer software technology. I have zero regrets going back and I know it’ll give me an edge over people without it a degree. Where my hang up will be in my opinion is building my own projects.
Very subjective and based off of the company. I'm a software engineer, without a degree. I don't even have a high school diploma, but I'm being picked over people with degrees due to my experience.
@@ghost9031 that’s awesome, I’m happy for you. I don’t know how I’ll fair after graduation, and as of right now I don’t feel confident enough to actually apply for internships. I’ve had two classes that are specified towards my major.
@@ghost9031 respectfully speaking youre branding an outlier as if its the norm. yes there are people like you but thats not the norm most people in tech that have the high positions paying the big dollars have degress. we all know you can get a job maybe but do people want a job or do they want the top tier career?
Not a great take, a few years ago this was the case when there was jobs for online coursera programmers, but the fundamentals you learn in computer science are far more advanced than what you learn for programming online. Mathematics is another benefit, knowing mathematics helps a lot with making high quality software, anyone can make software but high quality software is completely different. Anyone who is able to learn programming on their own is only going to excel while doing a degree since there's plenty of time to study on your own as well. On average, no CS degree, you'll probably be looking to entry level jobs with little to no growth, and much of which will be replaced soon by AI.
What he is saying is applicable in most fields. Mechanics that go to school learn theory and practice but it doesn’t mean they’ll be the best mechanic. Even doctors and lawyers. Also the cost of the degree is one thing, say it’s 100,000. Then you have the opportunity cost that you could be working and earning income, even a low income sat 40,000 or 50,000. So 4 years of not earning income is 200,000
I did graduated years ago with a Associate degree in Social Science. I did regret having that degree. I did a 180 and decided to go for Computer Science. My university accept my credits, due to transfer Associate Degree agreements. I have to take additional prerequisites. I talk to academic counselors. I was able to take CLEP credits to save tuition. Alternative was apprenticeships, but it depends. I decided to go into Bachelor's program. Human Resources look at Bachelor degree requirements, especially government jobs. Research programming language in demand to see, if it related to job. Job descriptions list requirements.
I dropped out my my CS degree after one year and have been a full stack .NET developer for three years now. Not required so long as you dedicate yourself to standing out and being great
I love my degree. I learned so much in a great structure. I commuted so not much debt at all. I think I became a well rounded person from it. And I agree you also still need to learn programming outside of school to be valuable.
Both my husband and I are self taught software developers. Both needed around 6 months of free bootcamps (like freecodecamp and such) and free youtube tutorials to get a first job. We never paid for any courses or degrees. I did it first while being on a maternity leave and now I am 3+ years in the industry. Hubby did it recently and this is his 1st week in a junior software developer role. We are both around 40 y.o. and we both have degrees and careers in Engineering (buildings) - so before coming to IT we were both technical minded. Guys, don't waste your time on degrees, especially if you already have life experience and other careers. Good luck!
I strongly agree. I think with the way society has changed, especially technologically, college can no longer be seen as having a monopoly on being a source of learning for post high school education. Pretty ironic that with college, a lot of times the idea is that you going to broke to learn skills not to be broke.
To anyone watching and finance is the issue, i highly suggest what Im doing. Uber and Arizona State have a partnership where if you complete 2000 trips and keep good ratings, Uber covers 100% of tuition. The computer science degree requires at least at 24 composite on ACT. Ive been admitted and start in the fall. Super pumped!
Anyone else here doing Computer Science but NOT planning on becoming a software developer? I'm a Mathematics and Comp Sci major, plan on applying for PhD after I graduate. I feel like getting a CS degree to become a developer is kind of a waste of the theoretical information, better to do a business/engineering degree and teach yourself to code.
same here, incoming freshman for computer science but i plan on going into cybersecurity, getting certs during my 4 years but honestly I don’t know if this is the right route to take :/
I am self taught programmer and i will get degree in inshallah because i am from Saudi Arabia the vast majority of universities in ksa is free So I will utilize this opportunity
I been learning as a self taught software developer. This road is very iffy because as I learn more I realize how much I didn’t learn. Your roadmap is very crucial and I think I missed a lot of logic learning as I learned how to build things where logic is not discussed. I also spent more time learning the framework than the language it was based on. My advice to any new self taught programmer is learn the foundation of your language. Study logic and algorithms before you want to build the next Facebook or TH-cam.
I only has AS degree in cs. It was very harder for me to find the first job compare to bs and master. Now, I am solution architect with 8 years experience, I can handle most of the software engineer position, system admin, data engineer, infrastructure engineer, cloud engineer. It is all about your self learn and year of experience. When you reach enough year of experience and hand on everything, nobody care about your degree. Why I didnt go for BS and Master at this point, first it too expensive, second the knowledge at school right now is behind the market at least 10 years. But for young generation, you do need a degree to find a job. When you jump into the market, it is about how you can present your self. The degree is just a part of the game, employers want to see your experience through intern, self projects. The key to win the game is make your self value in their eyes.
100%agree with Tim on every point made... especially as i worked in University for 5years as a dorm manager with students that fall under all thise points being made upfront and personally... heard all the stories n narratives firsthand
You should move to Germany where all good universities are free in case money is an issue. I actually did my CS degree with focus on AI. Even had the chance to get into research, but eventually decided against it. Btw almost anything Tim said is true. I also did an apprenticeship to try the job first, then had a freelancing business during semester breaks. Without my prior experience, I wouldn't have had the same opportunities. Find your passion first or at least learn things that will be beneficial no matter what.
46 years old, mental illness, never got a degree but was taught theory and design by my father (a systems' analyst) at age 5 and 6 and have been a hobbyist programmer for 41 years, mostly self taught. So glad I never paid for a degree, I wouldn't of been able to handle it and just end up in debt.
This man is talking a lot about programming and their are programming degrees, where you learn how to code and become developers. Computer Science is a good degree, but looking at CS for coding doesnt seem to be a good comparison. WGU has a degree for coding. Honestly I just don't understand the comparison here.
I’m doing a computer science degree. But I’ll still tell people to self study or do boot camps. Employers only care if you can do the job, not what certifications you have. For people that doesn’t want to go the college/uni route, there’s still hope, you just got to grind and find that grit. Good luck my fellow future techs.
i did a CS degree, and your points are right, i had to do projects on the side and made sure i did as much internships that i got, and the last intenrship i did i made sure i pursured a full-time at the same company.
CS degree is a well sought after degree in this world. Most cybersecurity jobs even prefer someone with CS plus certs. CS teaches a deeper understanding of anything that involves computers in general.
I have done all the bad things in this video. I went to college for comp sci. Didn’t get a job also didn’t graduate. Also took too long. Man if I could do that sh** over again… but now my life is f***’d
Thanks alot Tim I was so stressed in choosing a carrer and now I'm pretty that I'll be better off somewhere like a data science since I am intrested in business more
I don't have a cs degree and never took part in any boot camps and I could never be more thankful to be self taught. I find myself thinking of all the problems we face very differently than those with formalized education. I also do more than fine in the job market and outcompete those with degrees or boot camps. Additionally I've done hiring in software and also prefer those without formalized education. I find that those who are self taught are much better at adapting to the problems they need to handle rather than relying on problems they have been taught to solve. When I hire people, I don't even think it's a question, 99% of the time, I would rather hire someone who spent the 4 university years on building projects of their own and maybe took on a few very entry level jobs (even better if they tried building their own startup). Those people are miles better than people with formalized education
As a Bioengineer, from the outside looking in, it’s always felt like the way to really get the most value out of a CS or CEng degree was with people who were actually specialized in another major STEM area first (think Chem/Bio/Nuc/Electrical Eng), and then got the CS specialization. I had a friend describe it as speaking multiple languages: Yes, she could try to become an interpreter or teacher and focus on languages alone, but what sets her apart now is her unique duo of (in her case) Electrical Eng (and controls) + her CS background to empower it.
My very Low Math knowledge will not Be my Downfall in going to school for Computer Science. I’m about to start my Fall semester, and I’ll be Very humbled heading in.
You make a point to mention that getting a CS degree won't teach you everything you need to know. But, I would argue that going the self-taught route also leaves a lot of learning and theory off the table that is crucial if you want to have a deeper level of understanding. The job market is competitive, and I don't see why you wouldn't want everything going for you. There are scholarships, financial aid, getting your associates with an affordable community college before transferring to a university, a LOT of factors you didn't mention that making getting a degree much more affordable than you paint it, and in some cases free!
As a mid-level network engineer it's the same with computer science degrees. Most of them still need their CCNA cert in order to be taken seriously in the networking world. And honestly they only really need the cert if they know for a fact they love networking and only want to do that.
Network engineering jobs are diminishing fast. Cloud computing has taken over. Noone is configuring routers and switches anymore. CCNA is pretty much useless and basic networking knowledge is sufficient for you to work around the cloud.
@@nathanliew2103 Agree DevOps is rising fast and more in demand. Still dont think network administration will go away any time soon, many companies still prefer having own server's so need for more switches and route's will stay. However cloud's are still hosted someone in data center's that need to be still operated and mainteined, but considering DevOps relies on server's that are set up in companies like AWS, MIcrosoft etc.. that provide Cloud services the need for actual data center's for general organization's (non-tech related for example) will definitely diminish. So yes, network admin's will still be needed but for companies providing cloud services. Dont think network administrators and engineer's will diminish for hosting providers in every country though. So in the end we can agree that there will be less demand for network engineer's and admins unless companies provides hosting services localy or globably.
You really think that cloud engineers who make a lot of money don’t at least have a CCNA level of understanding of computer networks? The cloud isn’t some magical entity that gets rid of the need for network engineers.
@@domferris9963 I mean you really don't need a CCNA. I used to be a cloud engineer and now a devops engineer and I don't think I'm paid less at all and I think CompTIA Net+ for example is way more than what you need. I don't even take that since AWS SysOps for example covers less that that. Moving to the cloud is essentially getting rid of network engineers because you no longer need people to configure router and switches as it abstracts the physical layer
If colleges got rid of general edu, the degree could take only 2 years instead of 4 but of course the universities would hate to lose free money like that
While I was in college working on a CS major and strengthening my program design and structure knowledge and work to a deadline is to write programs for my accounting class study assignments. To write the programs I had the learn the accounting topic to the point I could create a program for it. The deadline was having completed the program before moving on to the next accounting topic. This really sharpened my computer knowledge and skills, plus making it easy to be prepared for any accounting class tests. Learning to become an effective computer designer/programmer does require self disapline and initiative to succeed in this career.
People forget about community colleges. Community colleges are great, less expensive and you get a associate’s degree then transfer the credits to a 4 year.
Western Governor's University has a solid computer science department, and it is competency based. People who can come in with a lot of experience can finish in a single term, maybe two.
Honestly, the 2 year gap sounds great, but I advice against it, it sounds like you would have the time of your life and all the time in the world to develop your passions, but for most people it's just a period of nothing, better then to just go get the degree immediately, I took a gap year, and a job, but I never had any energy pursuing my passions after the job, so it was wasted time
This is a good video. I'll share my criticism with the argument against formal education; however, I will say that this is one of the few videos on this topic that isn't biased and presents arguments fairly without gross exaggeration. Nice job! Making the right decision about getting a formal education is circumstantial. Parenthetically, companies may be willing to overlook the absence of formal education when it's explicitly required; however, obtaining the experience necessary to justify this decision is an obstacle that precludes most aspiring developers from considering it as a viable option. The right question to ask is not, "Can I qualify myself without formal education?" In general, this is a possibility in nearly every profession -- Doctor's and some STEM professions being the exception. Nevertheless, it remains improbable for most professions, including those related to computer science. Why? Job qualifications and indicators of success are not only technical concerns but cultural as well. Companies absorb the cost of bad hires and must create ways to evaluate a candidate. If formal education is removed as a qualifier from the screening process, it MUST be replaced. That is the problem! There will always be candidates who claim they are qualified when, in fact, they are not. It is impossible to know how a candidate will perform, so it becomes a game of probability. Degrees simply provide employers with a higher guarantee because they can infer that the baseline knowledge required to succeed is present. That includes the ability to learn what's required to perform. The cultural component is that formal education is universally viewed as the strongest guarantor of this baseline. It's is most applicable for entry/early career candidates. As you said, experience is vital and often trumps education, which leads to my next point. Candidates must, assuming they possess the necessary qualifications, ask how they can unambiguously present themselves to an employer as qualified. The premise of this question; mainly, that ambiguity of qualifications exists, acknowledges the circumstantial differences that can, most appropriately, inform someone of the best decision for them. For most, sufficiently and unambiguously presenting themselves qualified for positions that clearly express formal education as a requirement or strong preference is unachievable. Furthermore, you have to remember that, for every job requisition, there will be several dozen (and sometimes, hundreds) of candidates competing for the same position. To land an offer, you must prove that you are the 'most' qualified. If one person is able to do this without a degree; asserting that it's possible or plausible for anyone presupposes that everyone has the same abilities and what distinguishes individual candidates is simply work ethic. This undermines meritocracy; a theory that is predicated on that not being true.
This video is very missleading to be honest. How HR of companies filter applications is that they almost always prefer a someone with a college degree. It is as simple as that. Will they sometimes hire you because there is no better alternative ? Yea sure but if they have two similar candidates one with a degree one without 99% of the time they will take the one with the degree.
Tim, I have been a subscriber since covid time and I like watching your videos. This year, I will graduate from high school as a dotnet developer with a freelance job. Long story short, I am already on the track on the field and I am teaching everything myself. I want a degree just to say I have a degree, so, I was planning to go through an online degree program that costs less than 5K USD for the whole 4 year program. Do you think that is good enough and cheap enough to say I have a degree and do you think it will give me the flexibility of continuing on self-teaching? Thank you! Edit: Another Consideration, I am from Africa, Ethiopia
If you can, go to university. I know that there is computer science in Addis Ababa University. I have a colleague at work who studied CS in Addis. Good luck!
@@abdebuilds Do whatever suits you. But don't skip CS. And it's not just about the degree, it's about what you learn in school. I would also do some research about the online degree program before enrolling in it. Is it worth the money and how is the quality, etc? And is it a proper university that organizes the online program, or is it just some scam academy that tries to make a profit out of people looking for a career?
@@abdebuilds I also believe a lot more in physical human interactions. I myself studied an online degree, but I wish I had studied on campus. Some computer science concepts are best taught in person with a whiteboard. You get the chance to ask your teachers about complex issues.
Let's put it this way, if you are just out of high school and thinking about a CS degree, assuming you have the capacity to finish it - do it!!! Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. The little bit if additional time you will need to finish a degree is going to pay off tremendously!!! You are at the beginning of your career and why would you cripple your future opportunities by not fimishing a degree!!! You will regret it and you may never recover from this!
I recently started at a community college with a plan to transfer to a university once im done. I’m blown away by how many scholarships are available at the cc level. Haven’t paid anything, im in North Carolina.
i just graduated from a CC and i just applied to Ohio state university and got accepted, the college awarded me more money to attend than financial aid did, im born and raised from NC i wished i lived back home i would much rather go to school in my home state maybe attend like unc or duke.
Nice video. In Israel, annual tuition is about $3500, for universities. The university tuition is much LESS than college tuition. Most students are veterans of an obligatory military service, so they have a fund for ex-soldiers. That fund can only be used for academic or professional studies, or starting a business. The fund, usually, covers most of the total degree tuition. So, generally speaking, they finish their studies aroung age 26, with no debt. Finding a job, however, is quite difficult without prior experience, even for those who are universitiy graduates.
Your advice is funny 🤣 There are things called Certificates and Diplomas you can earn from a Community College in 6 months to 12 months. I'm earning an Associates but I get a diploma after two semesters. Four courses (12 transferrable credits) cost $800 and financial aid is covering that. Taking Python, Programming Logic, Information Computing and Database Management, and Windows Operating Systems. Unless you're rich financial aid covers most of Community College expenses. While enrolled as a community college student there are many perks and discounts. Discounted Adobe and Microsoft software, reduced gym membership costs, etc. You are offered internships, work study opportunities, and networks. While learning, I'll also be working with an IT advisor to develop my portfolio. IMO certificates from accredited programs are waaaaaaay better ROI than taking a bootcamp course from a guy like this. That would be a real waste of time and money.
In the past no degree but experience counted for something. I think a degree shows you have an interest in it, by itself it won’t guarantee you anything. I think having a degree, certifications, and project portfolio is all important. All of it combined shows you have a passion for this.
This is really interesting. Seems to be some weird communication breakdown within your guys industry. I am a mathematics/chemistry major with the intention of going all the way to a PHD. So when I watch videos like this on a different subject it seems like many students who just want to get a job coding are either required or feel they are required to get a degree that would normally be for people pursuing advanced sciences. I would have thought that some kind of software engineering pathway would be better for people who want jobs in coding/programming. I also feel that there is a cool factor that attracts people to the tech industry. These same people may also not be the kinds of people who enjoyed science and mathematics at school.
Also to become an officer in the military (from civilian), having an undergrad degree first is a requirement. A STEM degree even from a mediocre school practically guarantees a spot in OCS. Cyber operations officers are ridiculously unqualified, and the military knows it. Cyber will pluck you right up, at least early in career.
Just remember people: don’t be a sheep! If you need a degree for your vocation then get one. Many, many jobs still have a degree as a baseline requirement and will give you the boot if you don’t have one. Actually research what is best for you instead of blindly listening to the herd.
Realistically almost everyone in the industry has a degree. Don’t overspend on it and work a part time job while in school. You have a long career and investing in education is smart. Tim is an outlier, and that’s great. But it’s almost never a bad idea to get an education, especially in a field like computer science.
Just get the degree. There is no need to take any shortcuts. This is your career. Make the most of it by acquiring higher education degrees and relevant certificates.
Could you make a video listing what you need to learn outside of getting your computer science degree? I’m about to graduate with a computer science degree, but you’re right I still feel like I’m missing something.
IBM hired John von Neumann as a consultant in 1951. When I worked for the company I never heard or saw any mention of the term "von Neumann Architecture". Most books have crappy explanations. It is usually electronics books that have good explanations but they do not use the term von Neumann architecture. Programmers usually do not know electronics though.
I took Computer Architecture in college and they taught how some of the electronics work but they didn’t went into a lot of details. computer Engineers are the people who study electronics way more in detail
Having a degree means you know how to learn. Fast. Without a degree you can also learn fast as well but the employer will have a harder time determining this.
Hi I love your content and mind set , I want to ask your opinion on my correct state I am 35 years old and I entered this world a year ago , I did a fullstack course and I don't have a degree at all , do you think it's possible to get a job at my state?
I pretty much understand people landing a job without a degree, everyone needs their own income, but when it comes to specific topics, like machine learning, it is very frustrating to see that, at least where I live, so many people make it to big companies without knowing calculus and with poor statistics knowledge. Nowadays, it seems that knowing a framework has a lot more value than having good theory knowledge. What I mostly see in companies is people doing their "cake recipe" they learn in internet without any idea of what is behind that.
There are a lot of benefits to a degree that aren't monetary, such as critical thinking skills, networking, lifelong friends, exposure to new types of people and topics. It is a shame in the US the price of entry is so high.
Ex hiring manager Person A and Person B have the exact same skill levels Person A had a degree and Person B doesn’t. *Who do you think will get the job ?* It’s nothing personal but people think just because they don’t agree with something/like it that the world will change. NO MATTER IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, the person with the degree will be chosen over the one without one. That’s just how it is. Doesn’t even mean the folks hiring agree with it. But most of you have no idea how ATSs work and the process of going through hundreds of unique applications a day with most of them being a waste of time. Stuff like a degree really begins to become the cut off point
Get the degree if you have an actual passion for learning, not because you expect Uni/College to carry you off prestige alone - much less because parents told you to do so. People that have a passion or pursuit of an endeavor will continue growing from sheer curiosity, likely leading them to create a lifestyle out of ardor.
In India if we want to get a job we need a Degree most of the Company preferred actually in My state CS degree is cheap $1500max For 4 year but alongside we have to gain Knowledge about Programming,Data Science,AI ML etc to get job ready as CS degree is based on Theory not Practical but at the End Skills Matter.
If you want to land a developer job check out my program with CourseCareers: techwithtim.net/dev
hi tim, just wondering, for your software dev course, does it guarantee a remote job or at least you guys can assist me in getting one after i finish the course? im not from the US.
@@lycan2494 yes the program has an entire section that breaks down how to land a job from crafting your resume and linkedin to showing you the types of roles to apply to.
@@TechWithTim can this program propel me to work for a US company living in my country?
@@lycan2494 We can't promise that but of course it is possible as a lot of roles are remote.
I’m going to nova and get my associates and computer signs. Is it fine if I change and get my bachelors in software engineering
Stack overflow actually has a survey where most professional software engineers have a CS degree. CS degree people are still preferred over people with any other degree or no other degree. People hiring software developers prefer people with CS degree or people with Engineering, Math or Physics degree. You don't need a degree is a myth perpetuated by online influencers and bootcamps to sell their courses.
People that don’t get a college education have to come to these TH-cam pages to learn more often than not. It’s in their interest to convince people that a degree is not necessary lol.
The stats overall demonstrate that people with a degree earn AT LEAST million dollars more over their life time. Even if you took out 100k in debt, you're still earning that money back. Also if you go to college on a campus, just being able to network with people before they've hit their success etc. There's so many opportunities at even mid tier schools to expand your skills and set you up for getting a job it's not even funny. You just have to take the time to actually leverage the career fairs, the clubs etc.
@ceejay1353 I don't actually believe everyone should go to college. Also in Anglo Saxon countries there is a push for everyone to go to college which has lowered standards for everyone.
I think it's best to have apprenticeship program even for IT related stuff, and more people should go to that instead of college. Also useless degrees in Arts and sciences should be banned.
@@rkWilson fact is, most people that go to these bootcamps and apprenticeships probably couldn't hack it in a college computer science degree. The amount of math and engineering you need to learn to understand the theory behind this stuff is not something you will pick up easily teaching yourself or in a bootcamp. Hence why people who get their degrees make significantly more money on average than those who don't, especially in this field
It is actually not a myth. We have been instructed by HR to appoint a person if they have the required experience, even if they do not have a degree. I do not have a degree and I am the highest paid developer in our company, where there are some developers with degrees.
Another reason to get a degree is job requirements. Some of companies instantly eliminate candidates without a degree.
Well obviously. If you have 1000 applicants and 200 of them have degrees, beyond that there is no difference then you will focus on the 200 with a degree
@@kingofmontechristo what I mean is they’re not even considered without a degree.
More of Europe
@@kingofmontechristo I would focus on the 800 without degrees because they were able to teach themselves.
Most companies will prefer experience over a degree
Back in the day....(aka late 70's early 80's). IT gigs were pretty easy to get. I "dropped out" from a "big 10" school with a background in EE and CS.
I took a job in Fortune-500 company on the East coast in IT Computer Operations. The shop was implementing DEC systems into their remote locations.
I was one of the few people there who had extensive (albeit academic) training on DEC systems. One year later, they promoted me into "development".
They kept promoting me...and I stayed there for 4+ years. I was also lucky that my "boss" (aka project leader) was also my technical "mentor".
That's when I really learned about development vs. production, platform interfacing, real world "problems" and my favorite...memo writing
and user-level communications. Mentoring, speaking&writing and overall "social comfort" (with other peers) are really important in your first job.
You HAVE to get your degree in 2024+. You don't know how privileged you are when you have a degree in software or cs
im glad i read this .lol one month away from graduating currently in summer final hells😂
Tim is absolutely out of touch with reality. Computer science isn’t a degree about software engineering. It is a theoretical degree on computers. Him saying he got a job, is also not a point because he is a big creator in cs, and that is legit nepotism. Also with cs degree, it depends on location, etc. and going to college for a lot of people is a backup, maybe small percentage are not going to college in the us. Telling people not to go is just delusional. Snake oil video
Hasn’t helped me at all and I got certificates 😕
@@pickle9703 now imagine if you didn’t lol
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME OUT !!! does everyone who choses CS as a major is already an EXPERT in computers .. before high school ?? i wanna do CS but i don't know that well about computers.....
As a CS degree holder, this is actually a really good video about the topic. And I really agree with the part of you still need to learn outside the degree
Very true
It is because you went to an unremarkable school. If you went to a decent school you wouldn't be making this statement. I have seen the difference between a top tier and a lower tier school first hand in Computer Science. :)
@@gdawg77123 so have I. Even top tier graduates are still learning a lot in the workforce. I’ve actually worked with those top tier grads and they have made things worse because of ego. But that’s okay, we all are learning something in the workforce
@@cody_codes_youtube I can still pick up your insecurity here. What you learn in the field will always be trivial, you get your core in a very good school. And yes, school quality matters, especially in skill jobs like this. A good school doesn't mean you are competent, but it is one of the main pillars. People from unremarkable schools always try to compensate with non-academic field-specific stuff. If you came from a top tier school, you wouldn't think like this. It is as simple as that. Of course, you will learn outside of your degree. But your competency will come from the rigor you've been through in your degree, given that you paid attention in your school..
@@gdawg77123 ha, okay man. I’m just going off my own experience. No need to get weird on TH-cam calling people out for not good enough schools, name calling, etc.
You’re not wrong, but your stance is overly aggressive and if you have the experience you’re alluding to, then you should know it’s all nuanced and depends on the situation.
Yeah the degree route was much better for me. Started self teaching myself and had personal projects, but didn’t actually start getting interviews until I started a post bacc in computer science that was less than $10K from a state school. I know you’re trying to sell your course, but there are definitely affordable CS degrees out there, and you’re qualified for internships whereas before you were not. You can really stand out from the crowd with a degree with all the competition out there.
Yep!
What post bacc program did you do?
and it's better in other countries like Australia where you only have to repay your student loans if you start making money above a certain pay grade. So get your bachelor and a tech job = you win, get your bachelor but no tech job = you don't lose.
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME OUT !!! does everyone who choses CS as a major is already an EXPERT in computers .. before high school ?? i wanna do CS but i don't know that well about computers.....
@@SANIA-ko8hh At least at my uni (and they're required for accreditation so probably every one in Australia) there were first year courses that were piss easy and on a lower level than the CS content from high school (which wasn't advanced either).
If you put effort into those courses you should be fine for the real meat, while the average student will skip the lectures.
To check this go to the CS program of the uni you are looking for, and in the first-year look for courses with "X Fundamentals" or "Introduction to Y".
Bridging courses before you are in uni for real may also be an option.
But tbh I doubt you need to worry at all because CS is a specific subset of computing you'd only be prepared for if you already know how to code, which uni will of course teach. I knew people who would go to me expecting me to fix a problem on their computer when CS has nothing to do with that and you might be doing the opposite of that.
You don't need a Computer Science degree per se but it is a lot easier for you to get a job compared to others - all else being equal. Math, Physics, Engineering degrees are somewhat equivalent for most companies.
1. Fundamentals of Programming - It takes a bit of time to actually understand well. Usually, 1 year in a college setting. A 3 month bootcamp is too short for most people.
2. Data Structures and Algorithms - Very important class in tech interviews.
3. Mathematics - A CS program usually requires up to Linear algebra. This is extremely important for machine learning. Statistics is very important for Data Science.
4. Computer Science - Its good to actually know how a computer works from the electrical components, logic gates, memory, machine code, Assembly, operating systems, compilers. Its like having deep knowledge in Biology and Chemistry for a healthcare professional worker.
5. Electives and Specialties - There are programming specialties that are very difficult to obtain without college. Computer Engineering, Bioinformatics, Quant Finance, Physics, Operations Management, Data Science.
6. Networking. Many of your classmates will be your peers. They may help you along your career with advice, referrals, and information. There are clubs that help with tech interviews. There are events like Hackathons, competitive programming. There is also Alumni support, meetups, mentoring..
7. Career Resources. Establish collegeds are feeders to the big companies like MAANGs, Consulting, Investment Banking, Government, Military, Fortune 500s, etc.
I have yet to see a job posting for data science that does not have a degree requirement. A lot of them require a minimum of masters too. Which is dumb because almost all my learning has come from Codecademy and building my own projects. I think no degree is more for SWE.
You can definitely do data science without a degree. The problem is I’m your competition……… The military veteran with a BA Economics and a graduate degree Analytics/Public Administration... Several years of professional experience and an applied point of view… And I’m not even the stiffest competition. So, you’re spot on.
It's a to filter out the lackeys who aren't up to it or just go in blind-folded with few experience expecting to hit the six fig mark and live it up
Well, data science influences massive business operations. If you’re not at an industry-standard level or higher, you’re a liability to them.
I’d say go to community college first and get the pre-reqs out the way then transfer to a 4 year. At a cc you can easily knock off 60 credits of a 120 credit program fairly quick (just make sure the classes transfer to your desired 4-year). It’s much cheaper and flexible than a 4 year so you have more time to learn additional skills and work a job alongside doing school whilst saving a lot of money.
Yep, that’s what I’m doing..community college then transfer to a university.
this right here, facts
CC is a cost-effective way to get all those GE requirements out of the way. And likely you can live at home and save a ton of money.
Degrees Can only give you fundamentals but that is important too. Details comes from your own time. My fundamentals still help (34 years later) to take IT decisions.
Intricacies aren't anything compared to the building blocks. A strong foundation is always needed for a house as they say
Self taught here. I self studied for 1 year, 6-7 hours a day. I live in Europe, and got a job six months ago. You just have to love it to succeed.
True
Same here!
What did you study and which method?
@@jeli780 the basics python crash course. then some freecode camp. then i decided to make projects, using full stack Django. When I was lost, i would see a youtube video, chat gpt or read the documentation. Basically 80% actually building projects, 20% theory.
@@jeli780 80% building projects, 20% studying theory. i started with freecodecamp, then started building projects using fullstack Django. Whenever i stuck, i searched youtube, googling, chat gpt.... I didnt pay for anything. When I created a portfolio, I found a job after 22 days of applications as a backend laravel developer.
A portfolio is better than a degree. As a software company owner, I've met with multiple local universities looking for opportunities to hire grads or offer internships. The curricula are generally theoretical or outdated tech where they attempt to be hands-on. Sitting on the sidelines for 4-5 years in a fast-moving field like software is obviously going to leave you behind. To pay $100K-$200K for that downtime could permanently derail your personal finances. I'd only recommend a degree if you do it in parallel with working on learning skills on practical projects which could help you launch a product or build a good portfolio.
💯🙌
Well said and as literally emphasized in Tims promotion video ads with Course careers
You’re correct in some CS programs being antiquated, but also a degree gives you great foundational knowledge, and will allow you to be more flexible in a shifting market. Also, the barrier to entry is rising, due to the influx of new talent. Companies need to filter the applicant pool and unfortunately the self-taught are usually the first filtered out.
Hi, what or which course would you recommend? I’m an Optometrist, but want to learn to code, to improve my understanding of our website and also to have technology working along selling eyeglasses online. Thank you for your help in advance.
I used to think back in january 2021 that I'd take a few CS courses at a local institute of technology and get a certificate and work as a software dev. Turns out after 24 credits, I realized I needed to know WAY more. Now, with 54 credits under my belt, I have a junior dev job, but I still feel I should know more if I ever want to work as a senior dev and plan to finish at least another 21 credits part time. But I'll probably realistically take another 30 credits or more.
1. You don't need a CS degree if your only goal is to find a programming job.
2. But to get into a top company, it's far easier if you have a cs degree from a top tier university.
3. People always say skills trumps degree. I agree, but i'm not sure why not both? It's really competitive to land a job in a top company. You do want every edge you can get. So for me, I want a top cs degree + great skills at the same time.
I am 42 with a degree in mechanical engineering, currently teaching myself to code. I would warn youngsters strongly about taking a gap year. I've got friends where one year became two and basically never stopped. I wanted to sail yachts, my parents said get a degree then you can do whatever you want. It was worth it. However I know how stupidly expensive tertiary education is in the USA, which is likely a large percentage of viewership here. To the people without a degree, your motivation and attitude towards work will count more. Unfortunately, without the degree you may sometimes struggle to get that door to open. But also know that most jobs one will get through contacts, or direct contact. So network as much as you can. To date I've still never gotten a job via a recruiter.
EE speaking here, the IT world is growing faster than the university system is producing talent. Let a multi-year drought come along the watch doors close to people without degrees.
@@vcv6560that’s happening now and many of the ones with no degrees are the first ones laid off.
"To date I've still never gotten a job via a recruiter"
You've never got a single job relevant to your degree?
@@piztech5168 no I have had plenty. But never via a recruiter. Direct to a company cuts out plenty wasted time.
I went to school for CS (online postbacc program) in my late 20's after completing a degree in music at age 22. I am 2 classes away from finishing my degree after 3 years as a part-time student. I got a really good job in support software engineering after my first year of school, largely due to the skills I gained in school. However, I cannot recommend getting a CS degree if you already have a college degree because of how much time/money it takes to complete. I think having a bachelor's degree is useful, and getting one in CS is especially useful, but if you already have a degree or have no interest in going to college, then don't do it. There are more time/financially efficient ways to do so. I definitely could have got my same job or a different one in software engineering without being in the degree program, and now it feels like I'm just finishing the program for the sake of it.
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME OUT !!! does everyone who choses CS as a major is already an EXPERT in computers .. before high school ?? i wanna do CS but i don't know that well about computers.....
@@SANIA-ko8hh Hey, I was not computer savvy until I started studying computer science. Most of the people I know who are software engineers did not study CS or do any coding before college. If you have generally good creative problem skills, you should be able to thrive in a CS program. Success is what you put into it, no matter the field. There will always be people who are more experienced and know more, but expertise in something is a long-game.
CS dégrée is important
Not mandatory but you have an competitive advantage with it
The bootcamp/self-taught era is pretty much over. CS is a popular degree now and tons of graduates each year. If you are self-taught you are competing with new grads with a formal education, and experienced professionals who were laid off.
Companies got burned by bad bootcamp grads. A goofy 3-month bootcamp isn't going to make you competitive.
Colleges also provide internship/networking/career fair opportunities.
in my experience what makes the college a great choice is the networking
Ironically boot camps made you more job ready than a CS degree, that was the entire argument for them.
2.5 years in Mechanical Engineering here. Ive always saw the boot camp. Never saw 3 months. They are always 6 months to 12 months.
It seems to me that the longer the course, the more legit it is. They get rid of all the core courses and teach hands on all the courses that are needed. At least what they claim. They also guaranteed job or money back
@@lukmanalghdamsi3189what do you mean networking? I don’t think I understand how to utilize my college network. What would you sugggest?
I agree. No one is hiring bootcamp grads because, to be honest, the computer science field is over saturated as it is now one of the most popular majors and a lot of people are graduating with them. As seen in this video, doing bootcamps might help you be a better programmer but don't count on the bootcamp for a job alone.
25 year professional developer in NYC. None of my comp sci training was relevant to any of my jobs, in particular the calculus, probability theory, discreet math, etc. But gone are the days of the face to face interview where you had the opportunity to sell yourself. I got many jobs just by doing a good whiteboard of my last project. Now you go thru multiple levels of testing before you meet a human being.
Guess what? two people have impeccable hands-on skills. One with a degree, one without. Who gets hired? Go get a degree guys, don't listen to this guy.
ANY ONE CAN CODE BUT DEGREES PROVIDE PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS ALONG WITH MATH. plus it provides high demand job security there is wide range of fields in computer science. computer architecture foundations of network and ML and AI and having analytic foundations really matters in problem solving and mathematical solutions in computer science
If you want to go the self taught route YOU DO NOT NEED TO PAY A SINGLE PENNY TO LEARN! There are many many many free resources for absolutely everything to get a software dev job. If you want to get a degree, You can earn world class degrees online from home part time. Georgia tech has a M.S. program for about 7k. UT Austin for about 10k,. Even Stanford has an online compsci degree that you can do for I think like 45k (if you can get into the program, graduate and somehow can't get a job, that's a you problem). You can earn mid tier degrees online part time for about 1k or less per course for undergrads (SNHU, UND). There's even self placed courses at UND (not the full degree). So you CAN go to even top and mid teir schools without going into massive debt, you just need to make a plan for it. If you want more software development skills, you also need to plan for it by either picking a different school/program or getting more of that on the side.
I am 42 I landed a job that is a hybrid network engineer : software engineer. I started college at 40 because job paying for it. I am almost done 6 months left.
I would say I have learned like Tim said about 25% useful things.
I also agree it takes a certain person to do this. I don’t think I am a good coder but I am a good network engineer so combining software makes me acceptable.
There are colleges in Europe which includes practical work experience as part if their program so once you graduate, you actually have both the degree and experience to land a job and to make it even better it's totally free for EU citizens and in fact many countries here in the EU offer free University degrees such as Germany and Malta.
However, the programs in Germany are exceptionally hard in the first semester, as the college is trying to trim the fat. Alone at TUM the failure expectancy is about 70%
I went back to college in January of 2023 for a BS in computer software technology. I have zero regrets going back and I know it’ll give me an edge over people without it a degree. Where my hang up will be in my opinion is building my own projects.
Very subjective and based off of the company. I'm a software engineer, without a degree. I don't even have a high school diploma, but I'm being picked over people with degrees due to my experience.
@@ghost9031 that’s awesome, I’m happy for you. I don’t know how I’ll fair after graduation, and as of right now I don’t feel confident enough to actually apply for internships. I’ve had two classes that are specified towards my major.
@@Aaron.Seabolt Words from one of my earlier mentors: you don’t ever really feel ready. You just have to go for it.
@@ghost9031 so uhhh…indeed threw a job at me and I applied to it. Here’s to going for it 🍻😂
@@ghost9031 respectfully speaking youre branding an outlier as if its the norm. yes there are people like you but thats not the norm most people in tech that have the high positions paying the big dollars have degress. we all know you can get a job maybe but do people want a job or do they want the top tier career?
Not a great take, a few years ago this was the case when there was jobs for online coursera programmers, but the fundamentals you learn in computer science are far more advanced than what you learn for programming online.
Mathematics is another benefit, knowing mathematics helps a lot with making high quality software, anyone can make software but high quality software is completely different.
Anyone who is able to learn programming on their own is only going to excel while doing a degree since there's plenty of time to study on your own as well.
On average, no CS degree, you'll probably be looking to entry level jobs with little to no growth, and much of which will be replaced soon by AI.
Best comment on here
What he is saying is applicable in most fields. Mechanics that go to school learn theory and practice but it doesn’t mean they’ll be the best mechanic. Even doctors and lawyers.
Also the cost of the degree is one thing, say it’s 100,000. Then you have the opportunity cost that you could be working and earning income, even a low income sat 40,000 or 50,000. So 4 years of not earning income is 200,000
I did graduated years ago with a Associate degree in Social Science. I did regret having that degree. I did a 180 and decided to go for Computer Science. My university accept my credits, due to transfer Associate Degree agreements. I have to take additional prerequisites. I talk to academic counselors. I was able to take CLEP credits to save tuition.
Alternative was apprenticeships, but it depends. I decided to go into Bachelor's program. Human Resources look at Bachelor degree requirements, especially government jobs. Research programming language in demand to see, if it related to job. Job descriptions list requirements.
I dropped out my my CS degree after one year and have been a full stack .NET developer for three years now. Not required so long as you dedicate yourself to standing out and being great
I love my degree. I learned so much in a great structure. I commuted so not much debt at all. I think I became a well rounded person from it. And I agree you also still need to learn programming outside of school to be valuable.
A degree will make it easier for you to get a foot in the door.
Can you tell which university you went to?
Both my husband and I are self taught software developers. Both needed around 6 months of free bootcamps (like freecodecamp and such) and free youtube tutorials to get a first job. We never paid for any courses or degrees. I did it first while being on a maternity leave and now I am 3+ years in the industry. Hubby did it recently and this is his 1st week in a junior software developer role. We are both around 40 y.o. and we both have degrees and careers in Engineering (buildings) - so before coming to IT we were both technical minded. Guys, don't waste your time on degrees, especially if you already have life experience and other careers. Good luck!
You both had other technical degrees. That's a huge leg up vs no degree.
I strongly agree. I think with the way society has changed, especially technologically, college can no longer be seen as having a monopoly on being a source of learning for post high school education. Pretty ironic that with college, a lot of times the idea is that you going to broke to learn skills not to be broke.
Guys software development is not the only IT path...
To anyone watching and finance is the issue, i highly suggest what Im doing. Uber and Arizona State have a partnership where if you complete 2000 trips and keep good ratings, Uber covers 100% of tuition. The computer science degree requires at least at 24 composite on ACT. Ive been admitted and start in the fall. Super pumped!
Anyone else here doing Computer Science but NOT planning on becoming a software developer? I'm a Mathematics and Comp Sci major, plan on applying for PhD after I graduate. I feel like getting a CS degree to become a developer is kind of a waste of the theoretical information, better to do a business/engineering degree and teach yourself to code.
same here, incoming freshman for computer science but i plan on going into cybersecurity, getting certs during my 4 years but honestly I don’t know if this is the right route to take :/
I am self taught programmer and i will get degree in inshallah because i am from Saudi Arabia the vast majority of universities in ksa is free So I will utilize this opportunity
I been learning as a self taught software developer. This road is very iffy because as I learn more I realize how much I didn’t learn. Your roadmap is very crucial and I think I missed a lot of logic learning as I learned how to build things where logic is not discussed. I also spent more time learning the framework than the language it was based on. My advice to any new self taught programmer is learn the foundation of your language. Study logic and algorithms before you want to build the next Facebook or TH-cam.
*study logic and algorithms*
I only has AS degree in cs. It was very harder for me to find the first job compare to bs and master. Now, I am solution architect with 8 years experience, I can handle most of the software engineer position, system admin, data engineer, infrastructure engineer, cloud engineer. It is all about your self learn and year of experience. When you reach enough year of experience and hand on everything, nobody care about your degree.
Why I didnt go for BS and Master at this point, first it too expensive, second the knowledge at school right now is behind the market at least 10 years.
But for young generation, you do need a degree to find a job. When you jump into the market, it is about how you can present your self. The degree is just a part of the game, employers want to see your experience through intern, self projects. The key to win the game is make your self value in their eyes.
100%agree with Tim on every point made... especially as i worked in University for 5years as a dorm manager with students that fall under all thise points being made upfront and personally... heard all the stories n narratives firsthand
The only thing worse that having one is still not having one.
Excellent !!!
You should move to Germany where all good universities are free in case money is an issue.
I actually did my CS degree with focus on AI. Even had the chance to get into research, but eventually decided against it.
Btw almost anything Tim said is true. I also did an apprenticeship to try the job first, then had a freelancing business during semester breaks. Without my prior experience, I wouldn't have had the same opportunities. Find your passion first or at least learn things that will be beneficial no matter what.
46 years old, mental illness, never got a degree but was taught theory and design by my father (a systems' analyst) at age 5 and 6 and have been a hobbyist programmer for 41 years, mostly self taught. So glad I never paid for a degree, I wouldn't of been able to handle it and just end up in debt.
Another opportunity not to get in debt is getting remote degree. Indian universities very affordable, teach in English and quality is good enough.
This man is talking a lot about programming and their are programming degrees, where you learn how to code and become developers. Computer Science is a good degree, but looking at CS for coding doesnt seem to be a good comparison. WGU has a degree for coding. Honestly I just don't understand the comparison here.
I’m doing a computer science degree. But I’ll still tell people to self study or do boot camps. Employers only care if you can do the job, not what certifications you have. For people that doesn’t want to go the college/uni route, there’s still hope, you just got to grind and find that grit. Good luck my fellow future techs.
Watching this after literally dropping out last week. Don't know what the future holds. If anyone is reading this please pray for me xD
Hey what have you done since then
i did a CS degree, and your points are right, i had to do projects on the side and made sure i did as much internships that i got, and the last intenrship i did i made sure i pursured a full-time at the same company.
CS degree is a well sought after degree in this world. Most cybersecurity jobs even prefer someone with CS plus certs. CS teaches a deeper understanding of anything that involves computers in general.
I have done all the bad things in this video. I went to college for comp sci. Didn’t get a job also didn’t graduate. Also took too long. Man if I could do that sh** over again… but now my life is f***’d
What do you think about cybersecurity
Damn that’s actually seriously tough
Do WGU, you can finish in 6 months to a year. Also, Jesus saves!
Thanks alot Tim I was so stressed in choosing a carrer and now I'm pretty that I'll be better off somewhere like a data science since I am intrested in business more
I don't have a cs degree and never took part in any boot camps and I could never be more thankful to be self taught. I find myself thinking of all the problems we face very differently than those with formalized education. I also do more than fine in the job market and outcompete those with degrees or boot camps.
Additionally I've done hiring in software and also prefer those without formalized education. I find that those who are self taught are much better at adapting to the problems they need to handle rather than relying on problems they have been taught to solve. When I hire people, I don't even think it's a question, 99% of the time, I would rather hire someone who spent the 4 university years on building projects of their own and maybe took on a few very entry level jobs (even better if they tried building their own startup). Those people are miles better than people with formalized education
As a Bioengineer, from the outside looking in, it’s always felt like the way to really get the most value out of a CS or CEng degree was with people who were actually specialized in another major STEM area first (think Chem/Bio/Nuc/Electrical Eng), and then got the CS specialization. I had a friend describe it as speaking multiple languages:
Yes, she could try to become an interpreter or teacher and focus on languages alone, but what sets her apart now is her unique duo of (in her case) Electrical Eng (and controls) + her CS background to empower it.
My very Low Math knowledge will not Be my Downfall in going to school for Computer Science.
I’m about to start my Fall semester, and I’ll be Very humbled heading in.
You make a point to mention that getting a CS degree won't teach you everything you need to know. But, I would argue that going the self-taught route also leaves a lot of learning and theory off the table that is crucial if you want to have a deeper level of understanding. The job market is competitive, and I don't see why you wouldn't want everything going for you. There are scholarships, financial aid, getting your associates with an affordable community college before transferring to a university, a LOT of factors you didn't mention that making getting a degree much more affordable than you paint it, and in some cases free!
Appreciate the honesty
As a mid-level network engineer it's the same with computer science degrees. Most of them still need their CCNA cert in order to be taken seriously in the networking world. And honestly they only really need the cert if they know for a fact they love networking and only want to do that.
Network engineering jobs are diminishing fast. Cloud computing has taken over. Noone is configuring routers and switches anymore. CCNA is pretty much useless and basic networking knowledge is sufficient for you to work around the cloud.
@@nathanliew2103 Agree DevOps is rising fast and more in demand. Still dont think network administration will go away any time soon, many companies still prefer having own server's so need for more switches and route's will stay. However cloud's are still hosted someone in data center's that need to be still operated and mainteined, but considering DevOps relies on server's that are set up in companies like AWS, MIcrosoft etc.. that provide Cloud services the need for actual data center's for general organization's (non-tech related for example) will definitely diminish. So yes, network admin's will still be needed but for companies providing cloud services. Dont think network administrators and engineer's will diminish for hosting providers in every country though. So in the end we can agree that there will be less demand for network engineer's and admins unless companies provides hosting services localy or globably.
You really think that cloud engineers who make a lot of money don’t at least have a CCNA level of understanding of computer networks? The cloud isn’t some magical entity that gets rid of the need for network engineers.
@@domferris9963 I mean you really don't need a CCNA. I used to be a cloud engineer and now a devops engineer and I don't think I'm paid less at all and I think CompTIA Net+ for example is way more than what you need. I don't even take that since AWS SysOps for example covers less that that. Moving to the cloud is essentially getting rid of network engineers because you no longer need people to configure router and switches as it abstracts the physical layer
My good friend colleague is a CCIE has no degree and has a very successful career of over 30 years. Talent first, and of course hard work.
If colleges got rid of general edu, the degree could take only 2 years instead of 4 but of course the universities would hate to lose free money like that
While I was in college working on a CS major and strengthening my program design and structure knowledge and work to a deadline is to write programs for my accounting class study assignments. To write the programs I had the learn the accounting topic to the point I could create a program for it. The deadline was having completed the program before moving on to the next accounting topic. This really sharpened my computer knowledge and skills, plus making it easy to be prepared for any accounting class tests. Learning to become an effective computer designer/programmer does require self disapline and initiative to succeed in this career.
People forget about community colleges. Community colleges are great, less expensive and you get a associate’s degree then transfer the credits to a 4 year.
Western Governor's University has a solid computer science department, and it is competency based. People who can come in with a lot of experience can finish in a single term, maybe two.
Excelente video 👍
Thanks for sharing. I have heard the related report from another online channel too.
Honestly, the 2 year gap sounds great, but I advice against it, it sounds like you would have the time of your life and all the time in the world to develop your passions, but for most people it's just a period of nothing, better then to just go get the degree immediately, I took a gap year, and a job, but I never had any energy pursuing my passions after the job, so it was wasted time
This is a good video. I'll share my criticism with the argument against formal education; however, I will say that this is one of the few videos on this topic that isn't biased and presents arguments fairly without gross exaggeration. Nice job!
Making the right decision about getting a formal education is circumstantial. Parenthetically, companies may be willing to overlook the absence of formal education when it's explicitly required; however, obtaining the experience necessary to justify this decision is an obstacle that precludes most aspiring developers from considering it as a viable option.
The right question to ask is not, "Can I qualify myself without formal education?" In general, this is a possibility in nearly every profession -- Doctor's and some STEM professions being the exception. Nevertheless, it remains improbable for most professions, including those related to computer science. Why? Job qualifications and indicators of success are not only technical concerns but cultural as well. Companies absorb the cost of bad hires and must create ways to evaluate a candidate. If formal education is removed as a qualifier from the screening process, it MUST be replaced. That is the problem! There will always be candidates who claim they are qualified when, in fact, they are not. It is impossible to know how a candidate will perform, so it becomes a game of probability. Degrees simply provide employers with a higher guarantee because they can infer that the baseline knowledge required to succeed is present. That includes the ability to learn what's required to perform. The cultural component is that formal education is universally viewed as the strongest guarantor of this baseline. It's is most applicable for entry/early career candidates. As you said, experience is vital and often trumps education, which leads to my next point.
Candidates must, assuming they possess the necessary qualifications, ask how they can unambiguously present themselves to an employer as qualified. The premise of this question; mainly, that ambiguity of qualifications exists, acknowledges the circumstantial differences that can, most appropriately, inform someone of the best decision for them.
For most, sufficiently and unambiguously presenting themselves qualified for positions that clearly express formal education as a requirement or strong preference is unachievable. Furthermore, you have to remember that, for every job requisition, there will be several dozen (and sometimes, hundreds) of candidates competing for the same position. To land an offer, you must prove that you are the 'most' qualified.
If one person is able to do this without a degree; asserting that it's possible or plausible for anyone presupposes that everyone has the same abilities and what distinguishes individual candidates is simply work ethic. This undermines meritocracy; a theory that is predicated on that not being true.
He does a really good job
In what?
This video is very missleading to be honest. How HR of companies filter applications is that they almost always prefer a someone with a college degree. It is as simple as that.
Will they sometimes hire you because there is no better alternative ? Yea sure but if they have two similar candidates one with a degree one without 99% of the time they will take the one with the degree.
Great Video, Thank you for the clarification on what a CS degree actually is? Thanks again!
Tim, I have been a subscriber since covid time and I like watching your videos. This year, I will graduate from high school as a dotnet developer with a freelance job. Long story short, I am already on the track on the field and I am teaching everything myself. I want a degree just to say I have a degree, so, I was planning to go through an online degree program that costs less than 5K USD for the whole 4 year program. Do you think that is good enough and cheap enough to say I have a degree and do you think it will give me the flexibility of continuing on self-teaching? Thank you!
Edit: Another Consideration, I am from Africa, Ethiopia
If you can, go to university. I know that there is computer science in Addis Ababa University. I have a colleague at work who studied CS in Addis. Good luck!
@@ygeb93 why should I prefer a full time study at a university in person while I can manage my time and go for an online degree?
@@abdebuilds Do whatever suits you. But don't skip CS. And it's not just about the degree, it's about what you learn in school. I would also do some research about the online degree program before enrolling in it. Is it worth the money and how is the quality, etc? And is it a proper university that organizes the online program, or is it just some scam academy that tries to make a profit out of people looking for a career?
@@abdebuilds I also believe a lot more in physical human interactions. I myself studied an online degree, but I wish I had studied on campus. Some computer science concepts are best taught in person with a whiteboard. You get the chance to ask your teachers about complex issues.
Let's put it this way, if you are just out of high school and thinking about a CS degree, assuming you have the capacity to finish it - do it!!! Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. The little bit if additional time you will need to finish a degree is going to pay off tremendously!!! You are at the beginning of your career and why would you cripple your future opportunities by not fimishing a degree!!! You will regret it and you may never recover from this!
I recently started at a community college with a plan to transfer to a university once im done. I’m blown away by how many scholarships are available at the cc level. Haven’t paid anything, im in North Carolina.
i just graduated from a CC and i just applied to Ohio state university and got accepted, the college awarded me more money to attend than financial aid did, im born and raised from NC i wished i lived back home i would much rather go to school in my home state maybe attend like unc or duke.
Nice video.
In Israel, annual tuition is about $3500, for universities.
The university tuition is much LESS than college tuition.
Most students are veterans of an obligatory military service, so they have a fund for ex-soldiers. That fund can only be used for academic or professional studies, or starting a business.
The fund, usually, covers most of the total degree tuition. So, generally speaking, they finish their studies aroung age 26, with no debt.
Finding a job, however, is quite difficult without prior experience, even for those who are universitiy graduates.
Your advice is funny 🤣 There are things called Certificates and Diplomas you can earn from a Community College in 6 months to 12 months.
I'm earning an Associates but I get a diploma after two semesters. Four courses (12 transferrable credits) cost $800 and financial aid is covering that. Taking Python, Programming Logic, Information Computing and Database Management, and Windows Operating Systems. Unless you're rich financial aid covers most of Community College expenses.
While enrolled as a community college student there are many perks and discounts. Discounted Adobe and Microsoft software, reduced gym membership costs, etc. You are offered internships, work study opportunities, and networks. While learning, I'll also be working with an IT advisor to develop my portfolio.
IMO certificates from accredited programs are waaaaaaay better ROI than taking a bootcamp course from a guy like this. That would be a real waste of time and money.
In the past no degree but experience counted for something. I think a degree shows you have an interest in it, by itself it won’t guarantee you anything. I think having a degree, certifications, and project portfolio is all important. All of it combined shows you have a passion for this.
This is really interesting. Seems to be some weird communication breakdown within your guys industry.
I am a mathematics/chemistry major with the intention of going all the way to a PHD.
So when I watch videos like this on a different subject it seems like many students who just want to get a job coding are either required or feel they are required to get a degree that would normally be for people pursuing advanced sciences.
I would have thought that some kind of software engineering pathway would be better for people who want jobs in coding/programming.
I also feel that there is a cool factor that attracts people to the tech industry. These same people may also not be the kinds of people who enjoyed science and mathematics at school.
man, people are gonna underestand what this man says after graduation ..
Also to become an officer in the military (from civilian), having an undergrad degree first is a requirement. A STEM degree even from a mediocre school practically guarantees a spot in OCS. Cyber operations officers are ridiculously unqualified, and the military knows it. Cyber will pluck you right up, at least early in career.
Just remember people: don’t be a sheep! If you need a degree for your vocation then get one. Many, many jobs still have a degree as a baseline requirement and will give you the boot if you don’t have one. Actually research what is best for you instead of blindly listening to the herd.
Realistically almost everyone in the industry has a degree. Don’t overspend on it and work a part time job while in school. You have a long career and investing in education is smart. Tim is an outlier, and that’s great. But it’s almost never a bad idea to get an education, especially in a field like computer science.
Just get the degree. There is no need to take any shortcuts. This is your career. Make the most of it by acquiring higher education degrees and relevant certificates.
I’m 23 and just started college and I am feeling so old 😅
i'm 31 yo, should i start to learn or is too late? i have no degree
Could you make a video listing what you need to learn outside of getting your computer science degree? I’m about to graduate with a computer science degree, but you’re right I still feel like I’m missing something.
Great idea I think I will do that
Actually everything can be self taught not just cs
Great video as always, I was wondering if you could make a video on how to work with open source, contribute, be useful etc.
In other words you want people to go to your paid courses
IBM hired John von Neumann as a consultant in 1951. When I worked for the company I never heard or saw any mention of the term "von Neumann Architecture". Most books have crappy explanations. It is usually electronics books that have good explanations but they do not use the term von Neumann architecture.
Programmers usually do not know electronics though.
I took Computer Architecture in college and they taught how some of the electronics work but they didn’t went into a lot of details. computer Engineers are the people who study electronics way more in detail
@@Sant270
Schools decide how to compartmentalize knowledge.
Having a degree means you know how to learn. Fast. Without a degree you can also learn fast as well but the employer will have a harder time determining this.
don't get the degree. buy my class instead. yeah, buddy.
Hi I love your content and mind set , I want to ask your opinion on my correct state I am 35 years old and I entered this world a year ago , I did a fullstack course and I don't have a degree at all , do you think it's possible to get a job at my state?
Thank God I dropped Comp Sci and switched majors a few years ago. Good luck to anyone who is still majoring in that field
what major did you switch to?
@@Henrym033
Switched to Finance. I’m glad I did since it’s something I see myself doing for the rest of my life
Interesting. What would be equally interesting, is a degree in Computer Engineering -- which is a hybrid of CS + EE. So, SW + HW.
Hey Tim, just a quick question are you using any sort of AI filters in your video editing? Just wondering as I have been searching for some myself
Shut up 🖕🤡🖕
I pretty much understand people landing a job without a degree, everyone needs their own income, but when it comes to specific topics, like machine learning, it is very frustrating to see that, at least where I live, so many people make it to big companies without knowing calculus and with poor statistics knowledge. Nowadays, it seems that knowing a framework has a lot more value than having good theory knowledge. What I mostly see in companies is people doing their "cake recipe" they learn in internet without any idea of what is behind that.
Indeed. HR and the hiring manager recruit the wrong profiles but then again they are not the sharpest tools. This entire world is a clown world.
There are a lot of benefits to a degree that aren't monetary, such as critical thinking skills, networking, lifelong friends, exposure to new types of people and topics. It is a shame in the US the price of entry is so high.
Having a CS degree just makes it easier and quicker to get a job in tech fields, due to biases.
Ex hiring manager
Person A and Person B have the exact same skill levels
Person A had a degree and Person B doesn’t. *Who do you think will get the job ?*
It’s nothing personal but people think just because they don’t agree with something/like it that the world will change. NO MATTER IF YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, the person with the degree will be chosen over the one without one. That’s just how it is. Doesn’t even mean the folks hiring agree with it. But most of you have no idea how ATSs work and the process of going through hundreds of unique applications a day with most of them being a waste of time.
Stuff like a degree really begins to become the cut off point
Get the degree if you have an actual passion for learning, not because you expect Uni/College to carry you off prestige alone - much less because parents told you to do so.
People that have a passion or pursuit of an endeavor will continue growing from sheer curiosity, likely leading them to create a lifestyle out of ardor.
In India if we want to get a job we need a Degree most of the Company preferred actually in My state CS degree is cheap $1500max For 4 year but alongside we have to gain Knowledge about Programming,Data Science,AI ML etc to get job ready as CS degree is based on Theory not Practical but at the End Skills Matter.