Loved this program. Would love to connect with Gavin. I have indeed gone through great doubts in dark times and have come through to the light. Reading the brothers right now.
Why does the world not make sense? The world seems to be exactly as we'd expect if all gods are just imaginary. You mean it doesn't make sense if you also try to cling to the religion you were taught to believe as a child? Well, _that_ might be true. But there's an easy solution to _that._ _"If you don't like God, you're probably stuck with zillions of parallel worlds for which you lack any conclusive evidence."_ Nope, not even *close.* You see, I'm not religious, so I can _admit_ when I don't know something. If I'm stuck with anything, it's only with "I don't know," and that's only until someone finds out (with *evidence,* not just wishful-thinking). You see, we atheists don't have to pretend to know everything. "I don't know" might not be an especially _satisfying_ answer, but it has one very big advantage: it's actually _true._ (Also, it's not that I don't "like" God. It's that I haven't seen even *one* piece of good evidence that your god - or _any_ god - actually exists. Do _you_ have any? Just *one piece of good evidence,* specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself? No? Well, _that's_ why I'm an atheist.) _"And if it's not true, what does _*_that_*_ mean?"_ It apparently means that something _else_ must be true. Right? That doesn't seem too difficult. _"It wouldn't be _*_all_*_ intuitions."_ Heh, heh. No, of course not. After all, only a bit less than one-third of all human beings are Christian, and that's lumping together thousands of different denominations which agree with each other about almost nothing (including who's a 'real' Christian and who isn't). That's why "intuition" is useless if you actually care about the _truth._ *Evidence* is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking. But if you don't _care_ to distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking? Well, then intuition might work for you, I suppose. After all, another word for that is "faith." _"If you look down the road with naturalism, it is horrifying."_ No, not at all. Admittedly, I don't know how you're defining "naturalism." But you don't have to believe in a god to care about other people. And you don't have to believe in a god to recognize that we're social animals who survive, or not, in groups, who thrive, or not, in groups. Feelings _and_ reason combine to make good behavior important. "Good" and "evil" aren't normally too difficult, at least in principle, if you care about human well-being. And most of us do - for good reason. You're making this far more difficult than it _should_ be. But then, I suppose you have to do that to justify your god? The problem with that - well, _one_ of the problems with that - is that Christians have to justify or rationalize away genocide, slavery, killing heretics, homosexuals, and 'witches,' burning women for having sex outside of marriage, sexual slavery, killing your neighbor for picking up sticks on the weekend, stoning to death disobedient children, and - depending on your beliefs about Hell (and Christians are _all over the place_ in what they think about Hell) - a god who tortures people, potentially for _eternity,_ for no justifiable reason. Besides, what you're saying is that you don't _like_ naturalism. Well, I guess I understand why you said something about atheists not "liking" God, huh? Apparently, you think that _everyone_ decides what's true and what isn't just... depending on what they _want_ to be true? That's not true. Some of us care more about the truth than about wishful-thinking. You know, he's making a lot of claims about atheists here. Maybe you should actually _talk_ to one of them, instead of getting your information about atheists from Christian apologists. Admittedly, atheism is a very narrow label, so what one atheist thinks doesn't mean anything to _me,_ necessarily. After all, atheism isn't a belief system. It's just the lack of belief in a god or gods. We have no pope, no priests, no dogma, no magic book, and _no required beliefs, whatsoever._ You can believe anything - literally _anything_ - and still be an atheist as long as you don't believe in a god or gods. It's a very narrow label. So, obviously, we vary. :)
@@HearGodsWord No, I haven't read that. Why? Does _he_ have *one piece of good evidence* that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? If so, then let's hear it. Just *one* example, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself. Why is *one* always too much to ask? I don't _care_ what one guy says about atheism. Why would I? As long as you seem to have *nothing* backing up your religious beliefs that's distinguishable from delusion and wishful-thinking, I still won't be able to believe them, myself. Obviously, I can't speak for other atheists, but just for me. I'm an atheist because I haven't seen/heard even *one* piece of good evidence that _any_ god is real, rather than just imaginary. (It would likely take more than one to convince me, I suppose. But if you don't even have *one,* you have nothing at all.) And as long as theists continue to dance around the problem - usually just _claiming_ that there's evidence without being able to present even *one* example - I'm going to remain an atheist. That's not by choice. I _can't_ believe in a god without anything at all backing it up but wishful-thinking. PS. Religions _do_ influence their societies, of course. The majority religion in a land _does_ influence it (and other religions in the land, too, often enough). But that's not unique to any one religion, and it certainly doesn't mean that any of them are actually _true._
![Opportunities at Christmas with Glen Scrivener and Andrew Wilson [TGC Podcast - Ep. 345]](/img/n.gif)
On the mark. God makes sense in His world.
Loved this program. Would love to connect with Gavin. I have indeed gone through great doubts in dark times and have come through to the light. Reading the brothers right now.
Just remember, the Teacher is always quiet during the test. He tested all the ones He used in the Bible.
Excellent!
Having heard this episode, Jordan Peterson came up to my mind to recommend him for this podcast especially given Sam Harris type of atheist experts.
I think Peterson has a video of himself talking with Harris on his TH-cam channel
@@HearGodsWord Yes he does. But I personally think having him on this show would provide us a good deal of inspiring perspectives.
God seems to be the best answer, as the atheist answer is "nothing" or "it just is".
Looking forward to the new Glen Scrivener book. Really hope Colin can get him onto Gospelbound. Glen can be found at SpeakLife UK
Why does the world not make sense? The world seems to be exactly as we'd expect if all gods are just imaginary. You mean it doesn't make sense if you also try to cling to the religion you were taught to believe as a child? Well, _that_ might be true.
But there's an easy solution to _that._
_"If you don't like God, you're probably stuck with zillions of parallel worlds for which you lack any conclusive evidence."_
Nope, not even *close.* You see, I'm not religious, so I can _admit_ when I don't know something. If I'm stuck with anything, it's only with "I don't know," and that's only until someone finds out (with *evidence,* not just wishful-thinking).
You see, we atheists don't have to pretend to know everything. "I don't know" might not be an especially _satisfying_ answer, but it has one very big advantage: it's actually _true._
(Also, it's not that I don't "like" God. It's that I haven't seen even *one* piece of good evidence that your god - or _any_ god - actually exists. Do _you_ have any? Just *one piece of good evidence,* specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself? No? Well, _that's_ why I'm an atheist.)
_"And if it's not true, what does _*_that_*_ mean?"_
It apparently means that something _else_ must be true. Right? That doesn't seem too difficult.
_"It wouldn't be _*_all_*_ intuitions."_
Heh, heh. No, of course not. After all, only a bit less than one-third of all human beings are Christian, and that's lumping together thousands of different denominations which agree with each other about almost nothing (including who's a 'real' Christian and who isn't).
That's why "intuition" is useless if you actually care about the _truth._ *Evidence* is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking. But if you don't _care_ to distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking? Well, then intuition might work for you, I suppose. After all, another word for that is "faith."
_"If you look down the road with naturalism, it is horrifying."_
No, not at all. Admittedly, I don't know how you're defining "naturalism." But you don't have to believe in a god to care about other people. And you don't have to believe in a god to recognize that we're social animals who survive, or not, in groups, who thrive, or not, in groups. Feelings _and_ reason combine to make good behavior important.
"Good" and "evil" aren't normally too difficult, at least in principle, if you care about human well-being. And most of us do - for good reason. You're making this far more difficult than it _should_ be. But then, I suppose you have to do that to justify your god?
The problem with that - well, _one_ of the problems with that - is that Christians have to justify or rationalize away genocide, slavery, killing heretics, homosexuals, and 'witches,' burning women for having sex outside of marriage, sexual slavery, killing your neighbor for picking up sticks on the weekend, stoning to death disobedient children, and - depending on your beliefs about Hell (and Christians are _all over the place_ in what they think about Hell) - a god who tortures people, potentially for _eternity,_ for no justifiable reason.
Besides, what you're saying is that you don't _like_ naturalism. Well, I guess I understand why you said something about atheists not "liking" God, huh? Apparently, you think that _everyone_ decides what's true and what isn't just... depending on what they _want_ to be true? That's not true. Some of us care more about the truth than about wishful-thinking.
You know, he's making a lot of claims about atheists here. Maybe you should actually _talk_ to one of them, instead of getting your information about atheists from Christian apologists. Admittedly, atheism is a very narrow label, so what one atheist thinks doesn't mean anything to _me,_ necessarily.
After all, atheism isn't a belief system. It's just the lack of belief in a god or gods. We have no pope, no priests, no dogma, no magic book, and _no required beliefs, whatsoever._ You can believe anything - literally _anything_ - and still be an atheist as long as you don't believe in a god or gods. It's a very narrow label. So, obviously, we vary. :)
Have you read Dominion by Tom Holland? A lot of atheist thinking can be traced back to the Bible, due to Christianity shaping the West.
@@HearGodsWord
No, I haven't read that. Why? Does _he_ have *one piece of good evidence* that your god is real, rather than just imaginary?
If so, then let's hear it. Just *one* example, specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge it for myself. Why is *one* always too much to ask?
I don't _care_ what one guy says about atheism. Why would I? As long as you seem to have *nothing* backing up your religious beliefs that's distinguishable from delusion and wishful-thinking, I still won't be able to believe them, myself.
Obviously, I can't speak for other atheists, but just for me. I'm an atheist because I haven't seen/heard even *one* piece of good evidence that _any_ god is real, rather than just imaginary. (It would likely take more than one to convince me, I suppose. But if you don't even have *one,* you have nothing at all.)
And as long as theists continue to dance around the problem - usually just _claiming_ that there's evidence without being able to present even *one* example - I'm going to remain an atheist. That's not by choice. I _can't_ believe in a god without anything at all backing it up but wishful-thinking.
PS. Religions _do_ influence their societies, of course. The majority religion in a land _does_ influence it (and other religions in the land, too, often enough). But that's not unique to any one religion, and it certainly doesn't mean that any of them are actually _true._
@@Bill_Garthright you should give it a read.
@@HearGodsWord
_you should give it a read._
Why? Why should I even take this stuff that seriously?
@@Bill_Garthright it's not a Christian book and it's written by a non-beliver so I don't know what you mean by 'this stuff'