Thanks for the video, a major reason for their tank development has origins in their actions in Ethiopia before ww2, their enemies didn't have them so they worked. The other major issue that had a huge impact on design, manufacturing etc. Is the dire economic position they where in compared to the nation's tha played major roles in WW2.
Yes, I agree however I thought it was still good to point out their flaws especially in tactics, then again it is easy to judge with the knowledge which we have today but somethings (like driving and firing without stabilizers) is common knowledge :)
The Italians used ex French R-35 at Gela (?) in Sicily. They attacked very bravely but one can imagine the outcome. At the outbreak of WW2, only Germany produced fully welded tanks. And even they had to rely heavily on riveted 38(t). Everybody else was still riveting or went for cast armor, which brought its own problems. The M3 Lee you've mentioned was also partially riveted, as was the M3 Stuart, Crusader etc. Welding only became popular in the 30s, was relatively expensive (like any new technology) and you needed a well trained workforce. Most companies who found themselves building tanks used to build (steam) locomotives and ships, thus riveting was their bread and butter. Even if a new tank design called for welding, if the producer didn't have the capability it was a question of either riveting or nothing. As for the Italian doctrine of "light mountain tanks": when that doctrine was developed, Italy still expected war against Germany and/or France. Both scenarios included mountains. As you've stated correctly, there's a limit to where (heavier) tanks can go. And to fight off some natives in the colonies and for conquering Ethiopia, tankettes were good enough. The doctrine wasn't about the Russian steppes nor the floating tank battles of North Africa. Doctrine only work as far as the political leadership understands it. Mussolini, Churchill, Stalin and AH clearly didn't listen and learn. The capability of Italian industry wasn't huge to begin with, speaking of mass production, not quality. And contrary to Germany, the Italians actually managed to build a respectable fleet (which had no fuel to run on, but that's another point). There's only so much you can do with limited economy and resources, i.e. you shouldn't join a world war on the wrong side. 😂
Ahah yeah you are very much correct! However I thought it was still worth pointing out its flaws including (but not limited to) the fact that they used riveted Armour for the entire duration of the war. While casting and Welding was a Possibility aswell (I will cut them slack for using it in the early stages) But it's difficult to justify things like basically no recovery vehicles, repair squads, poor tactics etc
@@LearningHistoryTogether Yeah, the Italian officer corps - all ranks - wasn't really up to the task. They had some very good officers and also some very bad. As in Nazi-Germany, political connections played a major role. I mean, if >200K Italians can't beat 40K British, you know there is trouble on very many and different levels. That is without considering the debacles in Albania and Greece. However, the Italian tank division "Ariete" performed very well and was on the same level as both German Panzer divisions in North Africa (which in 1941/42 was still the measurement for combined arms warfare), albeit with worse equipment. Bersaglieri and frogmen were very "elite" and the Italian navy fought very bravely against the odds. They clearly could get it right if they tried hard enough. And to be fair, the British still had no idea of combined arms when they landed in Normandy. But the British had a hell of a lot of artillery and the ammo supplies to succeed. Are you planning on doing a "doctrine tour" ? I refer to "The Chieftain" channel on YT; he has already done it for the major players.
The best Italian Tanks were the ones captured in Tobruk, and painted with huge white Kangaroos on each observed surface to lessen friendly fire. They look awesome in photos.
One of Guderian's better quotes: "THIS (referring to France 1940) should never have worked !" And no, Guderian hasn't invented the idea of armored warfare (look up General Hans von Seeckt for Germany and Fuller, Lidell and Hart for the British) nor did he fully understand it. Nobody up the chain of command knew where his PanzerKorps was, nor did he have the slightest idea where his own divisions were. The only thing saving his ass was the French having even less ideas (less than zero ???). When Germany started thinking about future armored warfare, Guderian was a mere Major. Majors don't make decisions on that level. They can be consultants, but the decision is way above their paygrade. He somehow managed to become "father of the Panzer divisions" by a shameless post-war self-promoting campaign. Of course post-war/cold-war "culture" automatically made former Wehrmacht generals experts on how to fight the Soviets and everything they said was nothing but the truth. This was especially the case for Guderian and Manstein. Both were very capable commanders, no question, but they weren't "god level of ingenuity".
I can write a book on the Italian tanks: first of all the Ansaldo was involved with producing face hardened armour and welding the Italian battleships, why they didn't supply the the Italian tanks with their knowledge instead of wasting time bolting and riveting them making it very dangerous for the crew inside! Understandably those were small so they could crowl up in mountains but had generally weak engines and small cannons and thin low quality armour. The crews packed the front with sandbags but was of little value. The Italian radios was infamous to be very unreliable because they using bulb valves and that afflicted also the aviation. Finally the crews were poorly trained but there was much other issues but I will stop here. Hope I didn't bore you. Good job 👍 👏
Thanks for the video, a major reason for their tank development has origins in their actions in Ethiopia before ww2, their enemies didn't have them so they worked. The other major issue that had a huge impact on design, manufacturing etc. Is the dire economic position they where in compared to the nation's tha played major roles in WW2.
Yes, I agree however I thought it was still good to point out their flaws especially in tactics, then again it is easy to judge with the knowledge which we have today but somethings (like driving and firing without stabilizers) is common knowledge :)
@@LearningHistoryTogether couldn't agree more 👍🏻
The Italians used ex French R-35 at Gela (?) in Sicily. They attacked very bravely but one can imagine the outcome.
At the outbreak of WW2, only Germany produced fully welded tanks. And even they had to rely heavily on riveted 38(t). Everybody else was still riveting or went for cast armor, which brought its own problems. The M3 Lee you've mentioned was also partially riveted, as was the M3 Stuart, Crusader etc.
Welding only became popular in the 30s, was relatively expensive (like any new technology) and you needed a well trained workforce. Most companies who found themselves building tanks used to build (steam) locomotives and ships, thus riveting was their bread and butter. Even if a new tank design called for welding, if the producer didn't have the capability it was a question of either riveting or nothing.
As for the Italian doctrine of "light mountain tanks": when that doctrine was developed, Italy still expected war against Germany and/or France. Both scenarios included mountains. As you've stated correctly, there's a limit to where (heavier) tanks can go. And to fight off some natives in the colonies and for conquering Ethiopia, tankettes were good enough. The doctrine wasn't about the Russian steppes nor the floating tank battles of North Africa. Doctrine only work as far as the political leadership understands it. Mussolini, Churchill, Stalin and AH clearly didn't listen and learn.
The capability of Italian industry wasn't huge to begin with, speaking of mass production, not quality. And contrary to Germany, the Italians actually managed to build a respectable fleet (which had no fuel to run on, but that's another point). There's only so much you can do with limited economy and resources, i.e. you shouldn't join a world war on the wrong side. 😂
Ahah yeah you are very much correct! However I thought it was still worth pointing out its flaws including (but not limited to) the fact that they used riveted Armour for the entire duration of the war. While casting and Welding was a Possibility aswell (I will cut them slack for using it in the early stages)
But it's difficult to justify things like basically no recovery vehicles, repair squads, poor tactics etc
@@LearningHistoryTogether Yeah, the Italian officer corps - all ranks - wasn't really up to the task. They had some very good officers and also some very bad. As in Nazi-Germany, political connections played a major role. I mean, if >200K Italians can't beat 40K British, you know there is trouble on very many and different levels. That is without considering the debacles in Albania and Greece.
However, the Italian tank division "Ariete" performed very well and was on the same level as both German Panzer divisions in North Africa (which in 1941/42 was still the measurement for combined arms warfare), albeit with worse equipment. Bersaglieri and frogmen were very "elite" and the Italian navy fought very bravely against the odds. They clearly could get it right if they tried hard enough.
And to be fair, the British still had no idea of combined arms when they landed in Normandy. But the British had a hell of a lot of artillery and the ammo supplies to succeed.
Are you planning on doing a "doctrine tour" ? I refer to "The Chieftain" channel on YT; he has already done it for the major players.
The best Italian Tanks were the ones captured in Tobruk, and painted with huge white Kangaroos on each observed surface to lessen friendly fire. They look awesome in photos.
To be fair, nobody really understood Armored warfare until Guderian showed them how.
I mean that's fair but, firing while driving? C'mon😂
@@LearningHistoryTogether lol, "seemed like a good idea at the time"
One of Guderian's better quotes: "THIS (referring to France 1940) should never have worked !"
And no, Guderian hasn't invented the idea of armored warfare (look up General Hans von Seeckt for Germany and Fuller, Lidell and Hart for the British) nor did he fully understand it. Nobody up the chain of command knew where his PanzerKorps was, nor did he have the slightest idea where his own divisions were. The only thing saving his ass was the French having even less ideas (less than zero ???). When Germany started thinking about future armored warfare, Guderian was a mere Major. Majors don't make decisions on that level. They can be consultants, but the decision is way above their paygrade.
He somehow managed to become "father of the Panzer divisions" by a shameless post-war self-promoting campaign. Of course post-war/cold-war "culture" automatically made former Wehrmacht generals experts on how to fight the Soviets and everything they said was nothing but the truth. This was especially the case for Guderian and Manstein. Both were very capable commanders, no question, but they weren't "god level of ingenuity".
I can write a book on the Italian tanks: first of all the Ansaldo was involved with producing face hardened armour and welding the Italian battleships, why they didn't supply the the Italian tanks with their knowledge instead of wasting time bolting and riveting them making it very dangerous for the crew inside! Understandably those were small so they could crowl up in mountains but had generally weak engines and small cannons and thin low quality armour. The crews packed the front with sandbags but was of little value. The Italian radios was infamous to be very unreliable because they using bulb valves and that afflicted also the aviation. Finally the crews were poorly trained but there was much other issues but I will stop here. Hope I didn't bore you. Good job 👍 👏
yeah it was quite the mess to say the least! i fully agree with your analysis
But they are cute tho
Yes
🧀
Cheez