So I was a motocross-crazy teen in the Seventies, even owned a couple 125 Elsinores and a 250 Maico, and for about five years I read all the monthly motorcycle magazines and suspension travel on motocrossers was a big story of the decade as the sport frenetically evolved from the scramblers of decades previous and their near-vertical rear shocks with no more than a few inches of travel. So it is fascinating, a half-century later, that all of this thought and effort is leading to all sorts of tech innovation for high-performance off-road bicycles which give us the motocross thrill without a two-stroke, tho' I am a forever fan of nasty two-strokes. And thanks, Anna, for all of your hard work in crafting this report and conducting this interview. And yeah, I'd be up for a conversation between you and one of the dogs developing high-pivot designs. 😀
Great to hear from Deviate directly on this. They're a great crew, really support their product and that product (Highlander in my case) delivers the goods. Not all high pivot bikes ride the same and it's definitely recommended to try one if you can.
Excellent episode and very well thought-out and explained. As an XC rider, i don't need to worry too much about this but as a mechanic and someone in the industry, I have a better grasp on this concept now. High pivot is here to stay as it does work and is the best tech at the moment. Again great deep-dive for us gear heads.
Just going to make a correction... a high pivot point isn't a virtual pivot point. If there is in fact a pivot there, it's not virtual at all, it's an actual physical pivot point. Keep up the good work though.
@@zardozal8239 the virtual pivot point or instant center of the bike is where the rear brake and the rear axle rotate so it's situated somewhere in front of the bike..
@@zardozal8239 Virtual pivot points are specifically associated with short-link 4-bar designs, just like multilink steering in a car where there is no physical pivot point on which the wheel rotates, but many pivots and linkages simulating one, hence the term "virtual". Virtual pivot points aren't specifically a fixed location either and can be designed to shift as the rear wheel moves through its available travel.. High pivot bikes on the other hand have a physical pivot in which the swingarm rotates around. We only count the number of pivots connecting the rear wheel to the front triangle, making high pivot bikes a variation of a single pivot design; a bonafide physical pivot. Anything that happens between the rear wheel and the shock absorber is merely for altering leverage ratios or spring rates and has no effect on the wheel path or the axis on which it arcs.
I agree, it's not a virtual pivot point, it's an actual pivot point a virtual pivot point is somewhere to what's on a Santa Cruz and other suspensions that use the VPP system. Their pivot points in imaginary pivot point far in front of the suspension. It should just be called a pivot point in this situation.
I have a 1993 trek 9200 high pivot full suspension. Came with elastomer spring that was almost rigid. It's horrible uphill but a dream down trails, with modern suspension. Light and bad geometry, but so huckable! I think it should have been in your timeline.
My concern with these designs is that you have extra drag on the drivetrain and less effective pedal strokes. Also the extra maintenance and cleaning of the high idler.
It all depends, if you race is one thing, if you have to pedal it's another thing. I myself love how the Niner CVA linkage work, it creates a virtual pivot point in front of the bottom bracket, which keep the reaction forces neutral at all times. Then again there's a lot of personal preference to this subject.
And Sensor - think its because GT's the suspension design is complex and not easy to understand by just looking at - but if you have ever peddled on you know how well it works
@@MarkG980 Never forget the GT Helion. I think it's the only modern XC bike that uses high-pivot design (AOS). As for the suspension design, they use floating BB linkage to reduce pedal kick back instead of using an idler-pulley. Older GT looks unique compared to the latest ones with LTS that looks like a Trek.
I love all the technology and I like weird so I'm not against any of the new things coming out currently. However, outside of really good brakes I don't think a lot of the advancements in mountain bike technology make an average rider better. Suspension forks and shocks have gotten absolutely amazing, but how many people are riding them set up so badly that they actually suck. I think there's a case to be made that if bikes were engineered to ride better for an average rider they would be very different than what you get when you design a bike for a pro level rider. Bikes are so good now its almost never the bike holding back the rider its the rider holding back the bike.
I can't get wanting a Highlander out of my head. I really don't need another Enduro or trail bike in my stable, but every time I see another JMJ designs painted Highlander I know it won't be long before I cave. I borrowed one briefly in the alps and it's like nothing else I've ever ridden.
More moving parts means more complicated systems means less do it yourself means more mechanic work. And all this translates into more money to enjoy my love of MTB/RB'ing. Question is will this out price future riders. When is there to much tech into a simple enjoyable pastime in a sense ruining this great pastime. Not to speak of but "the weight man the weight. Life isn't always a downhill. Sometimes we got to peddle uphill at some point. Me I'll always ride even if i have to build my own bike because yours cost to much. But not everybody can do that. My down hill bike sets in my shop and rarely comes out,, well it weighs 35 pounds. My titanium hard tail just makes more sense....... Keepemcoming
Thank for the info. I wonder if this would improve drivetrain component life? It seems like there would be less stress, possibly resulting in increased life of chain and cassette.
I swear I saw some small batch boutique bike builders designing high pivot frames with idlers back in the heyday of suspension innovation (1990s). Does anyone else? I think they failed as concept then because it was all triple chainrings back then. 1x has opened the door to success.
I literally have no clue what pedal feedback/knockback is... never experienced this boogeyman and i ride a sub 2K full suspension bike from 2018. I just do not understand this problem.
I was there at the beginning of the mountain bike suspension revolution. For over 20 years I've ridden a Schwinn URT design. I've been riding full suspension since 95'. The Schwinn had lots of big benefits. The biggest is that the suspension doesn't effect the drivetrain and vice versa. The downside is that the bushings ware out, and since Schwinn has gone bankrupt multiple times over the years, there are no replacement parts available. I ride a Titus Switchblade now, and when I do wear out the pivots they can be easily replaced. Bikes have gotten needlessly complicated these days. Simpler is usually better. Thank you.
It's good there is plenty of choice out there, people can get what suits them :-) It would be sad if all manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon and choice was diminished.
They must be good for the ankles, specially for me cause sometimes i come up short, but i am old😅 or if you are a hardhitter like my neighbor the crazy norwegian Brage...
Everything functions properly th-cam.com/users/postUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L Nothing was damaged in the box aside from a decal on the fork. The decal was missing a piece of a corner but I ended up peeling them off anyways. Assembly is easy BUT make sure you tune up the derailleurs. Both the front and rear need adjusting. I'd advise going to a bike shop but I opted out and put in 10+ hours with the help of TH-cam. Ended up fraying a shifter cable but all in all I learned from the experience. The Brakes work well but the front caliper needs adjusting or at least mine did because the rotor was rubbing against the pads. Make sure you swap out the seat, grips, and pedals. For the short run you'll be fine though. I've read that this bike isn't built yet for hard trails but I just need it for the city. PA has some of the worst roads and being in a mountain this was a great choice. Worth the investment!
Interesting topic. I have studied this for years (designed one in 2002, blocked by the pattent used for Vouilloz's VP01). This video could have been better: -it misses some iconic bikes, like the Trek 8200, Lahar, BCD... -guy is not an engineer, and you can hear it in some approximations. For examples he dosen't speak of rearward acceleration, or wheel point of contact pushing under the pivot, and the Cossalter equilibrium equation. -I despised the conclusion. Everything is not personnal preference in life ! Mechanics is a science, and under clear cases, clear cut conclusions can be made.
mountain bikes are not static and not ridden the same by different people or on the same terrain. As an engineer I despise your blind spot in applying your reasoning. In motorcycle racing some riders are faster loose some are faster when applying a precise and robotic style. You cannot take the Second biggest factor, the rider, out of the equation.
They got rid of it because the style suspension that the tire goes towards the seatpost , rolled the tire up thebump when compressed from hitting the bump..and when decompressed it launched you off the bump. Litespeed used it , but not for comfort , But for speed. High pivot seems like hitting it would hang u up because it moves away from seatpost , making u have to pedal up the bump...and coming down ..drags the back tire , or yanks the front back... not seeing the sense in high pivot.. seems like a play for companies to make more money..can it be explained ?
Omg! Ok for high pivot design for racers (downhill)! For cross country and for typical yo the high pivot makes no sense unless you are a pro racer (or someone who will be come a pro racer). The concept is another feature that bike manufacturers want to introduce to make more money. Look at 26 inch wheels, to 27.5 inch well then 29er which manufacturers says this is the feature to go fast up and down. Now! Look going backwards 29 on front and 27.5 in the rear. I say, make and let the pros use the high pivot to the pros. Again, manufacturers just want to introduce something to do what, “make money”. Enough said.
It would be great to look at the Bikes and listen to what you have to say! The disorienting and incredibly short still shots of these machines coupled with the long and incredibly vain discussion on screen tells me it's not about the Bikes. Make it about the Bikes, we will hear you and will be able to visabily study the features. Please long........long..........long shots of the art work. Please?
So I was a motocross-crazy teen in the Seventies, even owned a couple 125 Elsinores and a 250 Maico, and for about five years I read all the monthly motorcycle magazines and suspension travel on motocrossers was a big story of the decade as the sport frenetically evolved from the scramblers of decades previous and their near-vertical rear shocks with no more than a few inches of travel. So it is fascinating, a half-century later, that all of this thought and effort is leading to all sorts of tech innovation for high-performance off-road bicycles which give us the motocross thrill without a two-stroke, tho' I am a forever fan of nasty two-strokes. And thanks, Anna, for all of your hard work in crafting this report and conducting this interview. And yeah, I'd be up for a conversation between you and one of the dogs developing high-pivot designs. 😀
Great to hear from Deviate directly on this. They're a great crew, really support their product and that product (Highlander in my case) delivers the goods. Not all high pivot bikes ride the same and it's definitely recommended to try one if you can.
Absolutely agree 100%
Kinda surprised that video about high pivots didn't mention the Forbbiden Druid, but I am basis as I love my Druid.
Love my dreadnaught
Hey Dale! The Druid is such a sick bike! 👍
Thanks GMBN! As someone who is strongly considering a high pivot enduro bike as my next bike (GT Force) this came at the perfect time!
Glad to help! Thanks for the support! 👊
My 2018 Specialized camber has high pivot on it but after watching the video it really helps me understand how my suspension Works 10 times better
Excellent episode and very well thought-out and explained. As an XC rider, i don't need to worry too much about this but as a mechanic and someone in the industry, I have a better grasp on this concept now. High pivot is here to stay as it does work and is the best tech at the moment. Again great deep-dive for us gear heads.
You forgot the Canfield Brothers!
Just going to make a correction... a high pivot point isn't a virtual pivot point. If there is in fact a pivot there, it's not virtual at all, it's an actual physical pivot point. Keep up the good work though.
Depending on the linkages the pivot point is not always where the top pivot is. She knows what she is talking about.
@@zardozal8239 the virtual pivot point or instant center of the bike is where the rear brake and the rear axle rotate so it's situated somewhere in front of the bike..
@@zardozal8239 Virtual pivot points are specifically associated with short-link 4-bar designs, just like multilink steering in a car where there is no physical pivot point on which the wheel rotates, but many pivots and linkages simulating one, hence the term "virtual". Virtual pivot points aren't specifically a fixed location either and can be designed to shift as the rear wheel moves through its available travel.. High pivot bikes on the other hand have a physical pivot in which the swingarm rotates around. We only count the number of pivots connecting the rear wheel to the front triangle, making high pivot bikes a variation of a single pivot design; a bonafide physical pivot. Anything that happens between the rear wheel and the shock absorber is merely for altering leverage ratios or spring rates and has no effect on the wheel path or the axis on which it arcs.
@@Metal-Possum thank you for that I really did not feel like explaining that to somebody today.
@@lamefart I'm sure your right, but I was referring to the rear suspension.
The old GT bikes had a hi pivot with a unique way of dealing with chain growth.
Pretty sure the term ‘virtual pivot’ is being used incorrectly.
It is. But then again a lot of terminology in the bicycle industry is incorrectly used when you look at the way it's used for any other industry
I agree, it's not a virtual pivot point, it's an actual pivot point a virtual pivot point is somewhere to what's on a Santa Cruz and other suspensions that use the VPP system. Their pivot points in imaginary pivot point far in front of the suspension. It should just be called a pivot point in this situation.
High pivot is a handy tool for uphill too - nicolai nucleon with gboxx - with the legs this beast will pedal uphill with virtually no bob out back
I have a 1993 trek 9200 high pivot full suspension. Came with elastomer spring that was almost rigid. It's horrible uphill but a dream down trails, with modern suspension. Light and bad geometry, but so huckable! I think it should have been in your timeline.
My concern with these designs is that you have extra drag on the drivetrain and less effective pedal strokes. Also the extra maintenance and cleaning of the high idler.
Now I understand it. Thanks @GMBN
No problem, James! Thanks for watching! 🙌
I have ridden a BMW link, and I still own a park bike. BMW for life! Super fun for a 24/26” bike
It all depends, if you race is one thing, if you have to pedal it's another thing. I myself love how the Niner CVA linkage work, it creates a virtual pivot point in front of the bottom bracket, which keep the reaction forces neutral at all times.
Then again there's a lot of personal preference to this subject.
poor 2013 GT force never gets a mention. Great bikes.
And Sensor - think its because GT's the suspension design is complex and not easy to understand by just looking at - but if you have ever peddled on you know how well it works
@@MarkG980 Never forget the GT Helion. I think it's the only modern XC bike that uses high-pivot design (AOS). As for the suspension design, they use floating BB linkage to reduce pedal kick back instead of using an idler-pulley. Older GT looks unique compared to the latest ones with LTS that looks like a Trek.
How could you forget the Canfield Jedi!
If they want to give these systems a chance to survive, a standard and patent free idler size should be proposed among the big players.
Mountain cycles San Andreas would have been worthy of mention, A much better (and cooler) bike that the cannondale back in '93
Mountaincycle San Andreas 👍😎
I love all the technology and I like weird so I'm not against any of the new things coming out currently. However, outside of really good brakes I don't think a lot of the advancements in mountain bike technology make an average rider better. Suspension forks and shocks have gotten absolutely amazing, but how many people are riding them set up so badly that they actually suck. I think there's a case to be made that if bikes were engineered to ride better for an average rider they would be very different than what you get when you design a bike for a pro level rider. Bikes are so good now its almost never the bike holding back the rider its the rider holding back the bike.
one word. Marketing.
No mention of Canfield brothers seems like a huge miss on this video
I can't get wanting a Highlander out of my head. I really don't need another Enduro or trail bike in my stable, but every time I see another JMJ designs painted Highlander I know it won't be long before I cave. I borrowed one briefly in the alps and it's like nothing else I've ever ridden.
Miss the D man !!
More moving parts means more complicated systems means less do it yourself means more mechanic work. And all this translates into more money to enjoy my love of MTB/RB'ing.
Question is will this out price future riders. When is there to much tech into a simple enjoyable pastime in a sense ruining this great pastime.
Not to speak of but "the weight man the weight. Life isn't always a downhill. Sometimes we got to peddle uphill at some point.
Me I'll always ride even if i have to build my own bike because yours cost to much. But not everybody can do that.
My down hill bike sets in my shop and rarely comes out,, well it weighs 35 pounds. My titanium hard tail just makes more sense....... Keepemcoming
Thank for the info. I wonder if this would improve drivetrain component life? It seems like there would be less stress, possibly resulting in increased life of chain and cassette.
Have two high pivot bikes they work great for me.Will never ride any other style.High pivot , Single Pivot ,E stays for the win.
The Bird ethic emtb has a high pivot, feel sorry for the idler gear, that's gonna wear out quick
I think I've averaged about 2000km per idler on my high pivot bike.
@@timangus normal or motor driven?
Normal.
I swear I saw some small batch boutique bike builders designing high pivot frames with idlers back in the heyday of suspension innovation (1990s). Does anyone else? I think they failed as concept then because it was all triple chainrings back then. 1x has opened the door to success.
Does the WRP Centrehub sort out the need for an idler wheel, kickback and reducing drag?
🤣🤣Whenever someone mentions TREK, I can not help but think of Shriek.
I literally have no clue what pedal feedback/knockback is... never experienced this boogeyman and i ride a sub 2K full suspension bike from 2018. I just do not understand this problem.
Ain't o-chain on your cranks do the same job as high pivot design?
no, the o-chain is used to mitigate pedal kickback where the high pivot offers a rearward axle path through it's compression stroke.
I thought Anna was starting the video with a rap for a second
0:50 this example of a high pivot is not a vpp. the pivot point is clearly at the idler
I was there at the beginning of the mountain bike suspension revolution. For over 20 years I've ridden a Schwinn URT design. I've been riding full suspension since 95'. The Schwinn had lots of big benefits. The biggest is that the suspension doesn't effect the drivetrain and vice versa. The downside is that the bushings ware out, and since Schwinn has gone bankrupt multiple times over the years, there are no replacement parts available. I ride a Titus Switchblade now, and when I do wear out the pivots they can be easily replaced. Bikes have gotten needlessly complicated these days. Simpler is usually better. Thank you.
Deviate are definitely working on an E-bike
i remember in my teenage years i was jizzing myself in the bike shop over that trek y shaped frame , and rock shock judy
It's good there is plenty of choice out there, people can get what suits them :-) It would be sad if all manufacturers jumped on the bandwagon and choice was diminished.
MOMOMonster brake jack
I love my Santa Cruz Heckler 7. I suppose it might be a Mid Pivot? Definitely above the chainring on a single pivot as well. Simple and sturdy.
They must be good for the ankles, specially for me cause sometimes i come up short, but i am old😅 or if you are a hardhitter like my neighbor the crazy norwegian Brage...
I'm sure in 2025 URT will be the new fashion again.
Is anyone going to mention the elephant in the room?
2:39 ..... Isn't that a SRAM quicklink on a Shimano chain
Everything functions properly th-cam.com/users/postUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L Nothing was damaged in the box aside from a decal on the fork. The decal was missing a piece of a corner but I ended up peeling them off anyways. Assembly is easy BUT make sure you tune up the derailleurs. Both the front and rear need adjusting. I'd advise going to a bike shop but I opted out and put in 10+ hours with the help of TH-cam. Ended up fraying a shifter cable but all in all I learned from the experience. The Brakes work well but the front caliper needs adjusting or at least mine did because the rotor was rubbing against the pads. Make sure you swap out the seat, grips, and pedals. For the short run you'll be fine though. I've read that this bike isn't built yet for hard trails but I just need it for the city. PA has some of the worst roads and being in a mountain this was a great choice. Worth the investment!
Interesting topic. I have studied this for years (designed one in 2002, blocked by the pattent used for Vouilloz's VP01). This video could have been better:
-it misses some iconic bikes, like the Trek 8200, Lahar, BCD...
-guy is not an engineer, and you can hear it in some approximations. For examples he dosen't speak of rearward acceleration, or wheel point of contact pushing under the pivot, and the Cossalter equilibrium equation.
-I despised the conclusion. Everything is not personnal preference in life ! Mechanics is a science, and under clear cases, clear cut conclusions can be made.
This is a TH-cam video, and they are speaking to laymen instead of technobabble.
mountain bikes are not static and not ridden the same by different people or on the same terrain. As an engineer I despise your blind spot in applying your reasoning. In motorcycle racing some riders are faster loose some are faster when applying a precise and robotic style. You cannot take the Second biggest factor, the rider, out of the equation.
Why am I watching this? I have a hardtail...
Why are bike companies going high pivot? Because they need to sell you new stuff, bikes are just becoming another throw away consumable it seems.
There is nothing virtual about the pivot point on that bike. Sure some bikes have a virtual pivot but that one in your example doesn't.
Foes LTS
They got rid of it because the style suspension that the tire goes towards the seatpost , rolled the tire up thebump when compressed from hitting the bump..and when decompressed it launched you off the bump. Litespeed used it , but not for comfort , But for speed. High pivot seems like hitting it would hang u up because it moves away from seatpost , making u have to pedal up the bump...and coming down ..drags the back tire , or yanks the front back... not seeing the sense in high pivot.. seems like a play for companies to make more money..can it be explained ?
Sickkk
That's not a super v
Omg! Ok for high pivot design for racers (downhill)! For cross country and for typical yo the high pivot makes no sense unless you are a pro racer (or someone who will be come a pro racer). The concept is another feature that bike manufacturers want to introduce to make more money. Look at 26 inch wheels, to 27.5 inch well then 29er which manufacturers says this is the feature to go fast up and down. Now! Look going backwards 29 on front and 27.5 in the rear. I say, make and let the pros use the high pivot to the pros. Again, manufacturers just want to introduce something to do what, “make money”. Enough said.
It’s aitch, not haitch
It would be great to look at the Bikes and listen to what you have to say! The disorienting and incredibly short still shots of these machines coupled with the long and incredibly vain discussion on screen tells me it's not about the Bikes. Make it about the Bikes, we will hear you and will be able to visabily study the features. Please long........long..........long shots of the art work. Please?
first
🥇🙌
Noice
🤘
bad design