Check out the other parts of this build: Levels 5-10: • The Diviner A Treantmo... Levels 11-20: • The Diviner A Treantmo... See the final Build here: ddb.ac/charact...
Because Tasha’s Hideous Laughter incapacitates, it can be used to break concentration of other casters, even if they have CON save proficiency and warcaster.
In cases where you won't ever change it, Strength tends to be the best stat to get to an odd number as it does actually do something (in the beginning when you said CHA or STR). In the case of STR it does increase your jumping, carrying, and pushing ability (although jumping 9 feet vs. 8 feet on a 5 foot grid system, not sure how useful that is).
I wonder if we would use 2 levels artificer, or just one level due to how much we gain? Being able to have a bag of holding at 2nd level with magic item infusion is nice, and being able to buff your shield for +1 ac. However you also get 90% of the benefits you would want on wizard with the one level dip of artificer (con proficiency saving throw, guidance, medium armor, shields, etc)
@@Kbaker0407 Probably one level would be best. At first level we would gain all the stuff you mentioned, plus a full caster level (meaning our spell slot progression isn't slowed at all). At second level, we only gain infusions and a half caster level (thus slowing our spell slot progression slightly). Sure, infusions are nice, but I don't think it's worth the additional delay in wizard class progression.
we are starting strahd soon. dipping twilight on a chronurgist. i am going to at least 12 on wis anyways probably and the darkvision and adv on init should be good
@@johnpaullogan1365 even better let your dm choose theurgist wizard from ua and go twilight. :) Edit: you need 13 for mutliclass which is not a huge loss will probably just end in a negativ charisma, but as most other casters are cha based should not matter. Also one of the best things about starting ariticer is the proficiency in constitution which means you have a feat more cause you don’t need to take resilient or war-caster.
Something I like to do is use Portent on skill checks out of combat. You could have a forgery kit and put a nat 20 on your effort making that the dc for its discovery..... castle deeds, death warrants... all manner of legal acquisitions become possible.
I know you said you were going to be picking a different race for every single build, but would it be worth talking about some of the best race options for each build? For example I think High Elf would be an excellent option for this build. It has the benefit of having a wizard attack cantrip at level 1, plus it fits the theme of scholarly diviner.
High Elf is pretty nice for this build; I've made a High Elf with a very similar build (only feat selection and spells differed), and it worked out nicely. The only thing about it is that since we're wearing Medium Armor, that +2 DEX isn't as handy as it would be if you didn't get the armor. As TM has said several times, for the most part "good" race selection is just about increasing your primary ability score. Anything with a bonus to INT will work out great, and any other racial features are just extras. IMO, if you want to play as something else, Hobgoblin is probably your best choice (+2 CON +1 INT is as good as you're gonna get for abilities, Darkvision is nice, and Saving Face is a very handy ability), maybe tied with Rock Gnome (+2 INT +1 CON is the best ability bonuses for this build) and/or Yuan-Ti Pureblood (+1 INT is good, Magic Resistance and Poison Immunity are great [2nd-most broken race in the game, after Aarakocra]). I've seen Tieflings work well too. Since your save DC is important for most of your spells, having low INT can hurt a lot. TL;DR: Anything with an INT bonus works great. A bonus to CON is probably the best stat for your other bonus.
@@QuiescentPilot Probably depends on ability score method, but in point buy High Elf gets you to 8 / 14 / 14 / 16 / 14 / 8. I think that means any race that is 1 or 2 int and any of dex/con/wis is fine. You just change your stat allocations a bit to get to the same spread. And a 2 int race just lets you bring str or cha up to 10. So really you can pick based on which racial abilities you prefer. Which I guess is what he was getting at.
Hey, now we have the Artificer, would this be a better first level (or even later level) dip then Cleric? Can you make a video on a multiclass Artificer?
I have never in my life heard Eberron pronounced the way you did in this video. I’ve always pronounced it the same way DavvyChappy does in his videos on the plane
I played around with this build, and I really think the Arcana domain is more appropriate than Knowledge domain. You lose heavy armor proficiency - but you don't have the strength for that anyway. You lose one skill, two languages, and two expertises - but your expertise choices are very limited and the two you're likely to choose you are highly likely to make your checks on anyway given what they are. And those two skills are also the kind where if the DM wants the party to have that information, the DM will find a way to get it to you anyway. But you gain the Arcana skill (which you were already going to choose) and two additional Wizard cantrips (in addition to your Cleric cantrips). This puts your Cleric cantrips at (for example): Guidance, Light, Mending, Mage Hand, and Message (and then you learn your three more Wizard cantrips at 2nd level, and another at 4th for a whopping NINE cantrips at 5th level). And then your additional spell preparations are Magic Missile (which you were already preparing as a Wizard, so it frees up that spell book and preparation slot) and Detect Magic (which you already put in your spell book, so it frees up that spell book slot, and you can now cast it as a non-ritual if it comes up) instead of Identify (not a useful spell) and Command (not a useful spell). To me, two more wizard cantrips, two more useful spells in your spellbook, and one more useful spell prepared, is more optimized than an additional trained skill and expertise in Arcana and History (I am ignoring the Language as anyone can learn one using Downtime anyway).
@@TreantmonksTemple I think they uploaded from shortest to longest. I'm not sure of your setup/internet, but you might need more than a minute for them to be in order.
So...there are Augurs, which are soothsayers and omen-readers who predict the future, and then there are augers, which are carpentry tools made for boring holes in wood. This character isn’t nearly good enough at drilling holes in wood IMO.
Mm mm mm, love that 15 14 13 13 9 8 point buy spread. Delicious. Also, having played a v-human knowledge cleric/diviner wizard; having bless is very handy for when you get to 3rd level and want to upcast something. I’ve even used it in a 3rd level slot. Magic missile is okay, but bless is a standout, I feel.
Man, I wish I found this channel sooner. I love these builds! Been watching for awhile and I love how in depth you get explaining all the nuances with each build. This video made me want to give a Wizard a try. Though I can't decide on specifics... I assume a Artificer1/wizard x be optimal for armor/shield/CON proficiencies, optional healing, and the all too important only being dependent in a single Ability, but I'm super torn between Diviner and Abjurer. I'd think Abjurer would help your team with Arcane Ward granting a replenishing temp hp pool for your tanks and able to even save them and your other squishy PC's in a pinch. Would an Abjurer would be an effective God Style Wizard, or is Portent that much of a game changer for forcing rolls so it makes Diviner the obvious choice? I mean, I know it's fantastic but Arcane Ward seems super fantastic too. Thoughts? Keep up the amazing content!
When given a “useless +1” like in this video I always put it in strength. It’s probably my most “impractical power gaming” moments but for the most part, but getting a +1 to strength will always increase your carry weight. I remember agonizing over this issue before I realized “oh, this actually might be useful”
I once did a build of cleric1/wizard19 as a halfling diviner I used the UA halfling racial feats second chance and bountiful luck On top of this, I incorporated lucky and war caster What the dip in cleric gave the character was a nice AC, additional skills and saving throws If you choose to go with the light domain you gain a nifty ability called warding flare, which enables you to impose diasdvantage on melee attacks in 30ft with a reaction Not to mention you can choose the cantrips guidance and resistance, with access to the spells bless and bane Overall the build gets you: Reroll 1s Warding flares Guidance Resistance Bless Bane Portants Luck points Second chance (melee attack against you has disadvantage when shield isn't enough) Bountiful luck (whole party rerolls 1s but costs a reaction) War caster (advantage on concentration checks) Wizard spells such as synaptic static I considered a bit of lore bard but wanted it to be mainly a wizard Don't forget if you cast simulacrum all this is doubled!
Why take Detect Magic at Level One Diviner when the Cleric can prep it as needed with their Knowledge / Arcana Domain 1 Level we started with? Rather than a suboptimal Healing Word why not one of the 1st Level rituals Cleric gets: Detect Magic; Detect Poison/Disease; Purify Food/Drink; or even Ceremony for cool RP moments. If we go Knowledge we also get Identify as a useful ritual so check that box too; If we go Arcana Domain we get Detect Magic anyway + as was pointed out Magic Missile AND 2 extra wizard cantrips rather than Command which we’ll never cast with our low Wis. Either way those Cleric flexible rituals free up other wizard spells when we take our first level there. Not Adventure League Legal if we want Xanathar spells but a nice trade off.
So... I have been playing this build in a homebrew campaign within a Theros setting. We also are using the piety system and this whole build combined with the Oracle traits it all sync's up so well with each other. Between the already high roles for knowledge checks, the researcher background, portent, oracle gimmicks, knowing all languages and spell selections.... Well I missed out on one session once and they did mention it was harder without the support.
Love the channel as always. Great advice. Just a heads-up, a spellbook is neither free, nor does it magically appear when you become a wizard. You'll need to spend 50 GP to buy a spellbook, if you aren't gifted one by an NPC. Maybe splurge for an enduring spellbook if your DM sells those for cheap and gave you a level 1 quest full of loot! Edit: typos
Jack Marder When I did this build, I worked it out with my DM that I’d taken a loan from an NPC to purchase a spellbook before the campaign began. Made for a fun side mission once we’d leveled up a bit.
Hi Treantmonk. Your channel is just what the doctor ordered. I've been struggling to find resources for character creation that aren't just a rambling list of features class abilities and spells with little in the way of a study guide. Thanks for making your character sheets available.
I'm coming back to this video because I may be playing as a Diviner in my next big campaign and I'm wondering if you would now substitute the Artificer for the Cleric.
What are your thoughts on starting with artificer and going to divination after? Does it cause more delay to spell progression? I was just considering it because you wouldn't have to use the wisdom in your point buy and could allocate your points to good attributes. Plus you get constitution saves and the same armor. your thoughts, sir? Thanks!
The problem with warcaster is that the players handbook specifies "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components-or to hold a spellcasting focus-but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components." So a typical wizard with a shield from multiclassing cleric and a staff or spellbook in the other hand can cast spells perfectly fine. And if you're just a wizard without a shield then you don't even care because even a bladesinger just uses one weapon and leaves the other hand free
Knowledge Cleric 1/Wizard X gives: - Medium armor and shields - 2 free INT skills w/ expertise - Access to good cleric spells that don’t need WIS (guidance, bless, etc) And it only delays your Wizard spells known by 1 level without delaying your spell slot progression. I guess you could argue that’s more of a wizard multi class, but I personally would start with the 1 level of cleric for the armor right at level 1. Plus, it gives you proficiency in CHA saves instead of INT saves, and I’d rather have decent saves to both INT and CHA than a really good INT save.
I believe you can get the medium armor and shield profeciency even if you multiclass into cleric- would perhaps getting the first level of cleric at level 2 alleviate early game issues? You start with less armor, but you get to select sleep at first level and use attack cantrips right away (including ray of frost to keep opponents at bay). Are you starting in Cleric* it due to the starting equipment Clerics get? Or were you more interested in their other proficiencies (Cha saving throws vs Intelligence)? *Edited to make my question a bit clearer :P
On equipment, scale mail and mace has the same value as the spellbook. The light crossbow and 20 bolts and case is worth more than the component pouch. This does not include the shield and holy symbol.
False life is a great spell to take with this build as the scaling is fantastic throughout level 20. Do you see value in this spell instead of magic missile?
I played a Hlafling Diviner and one time i rolled a 1 as part of my portent, i used that one a boss creatures attack that would of hit an injured character and the DM rolled a 1 for it's second attack causing "the machine to be glitched". The monster ended up being turned around at attempting to attack our heavily armored fighter and missing.
As a high elf i got to 14 wis, took sacred flames, guidance, and light, for cantrip, for my racial cantrip i took mage hand but i could swap it for RoF or minor ilusión
Man I gotta say tier-1 lacks some punch. I am sure it gets better with higher levels, but it seems very weak in tier-1. Your only "punch" spells require Portent, which you only get 0 to 2 of (you could in fact roll two mid-higher rolls thus not helping foes lose a save at all).
This ends up being a buff build at level 1, which isn't a bad thing IMO. Web brings a mass area punch at level 4. If you wanted to use sleep while it's still really effective, you could switch the level 1 dip to level 2, it's really about whether you want to have more offense or defense/buffing at level 1.
I'd started with the first lvl of wizard, otherwise great. Even though knowledge domain it's better concept-wise, other domains like Light or Arcana are interesting too, any insight?
Out of curiosity, why would you start with wizard? Starting cleric gives you free armor, more out of combat utility through skills and languages, and bless when it has the biggest impact.
@@finnianquail8881 i mean nowadays you have great feats. Just start with a 17 and get fey touched or telecinetic. Is linguist really that usefull for a class with comprehend languages. To be honest i have never seen languages really used unless its some special text that needs translation and then comprehend languages works fine or if you want to overhear somebody in a tavern then again shortly cast comprehend languages beforehand. Compared to two addional spells which one could be gift of alacrity and misty step which i take for every wizard anyway or telecinetic for forced movement, save myself or allies and have something to do with your bonus action. A lot of spells become a lot better when you can shove your enemies back in the area of effect every turn. Also 12th level is now more intersting with The sorcery point feat for secret suggestions or spells that cannot be countered or double the summoning time.
@@finnianquail8881 sorry just noticed its the diviner video. For a diviner sorcery points is probably even better cause they use save or suck spells like dominate monster and now double it makes it even better or make sure that no countrr spell wastes our portent.
I don't understand. When we are at the third level (Cleric1/Diviner2), where are your second level slots? I see 5 first level slots (2 for the cleric spells and 3 for the wizard spells). What do I miss?
Note to wizard fans: Most spell scrolls are written in draconic, so draconic language proficiency is always nice to have as a wizard. Edit: Also, It is false that war caster's opportunity attack ability is bad. If you have someone cast command and force them to move past you, you can then cast a spell such as fireball to a group of enemies, as a reaction. You don't have to cast it on the person who moved past you.
I'm building an Artificer + Diviner Wizard using a Forest Gnome (+2 Int, +1 Dex; Gnome Cunning; Minor Illusion cantrip) with an Inheritor Feat (Survival plus choice of *Arcana*, History, or Nature; a third language = Dwarvish; automatic acquisition of all gear you are proficient with, such as a shield, thieves' tools, tinker's tools, and a third tool = leatherworker's tools). Artificer give Perception and Investigation, medium armor and shield proficiency (can get AC 18 at 1st-level), and proficiency in thieves' tools and tinker's tools, as well as full 8+Con HP at 1st level. Then I'll go 4 levels of Wizard before deciding to get Artificer 2 Artillerist or not. After getting Artillerist, go up to Wizard 6 (9th character level) before deciding whether to go to Artificer 5 Artillerist to get the Arcane Firearm feature, depending on how the campaign plays out at the 10th level onward. This character progression pattern matches the indecisiveness of the Gnome character I'm playing because he loves both artifice and regular arcane spell-casting.
About the Sage background. You took 2 differents skills Acrobatic and Investigation, Can you choose Acrobatic? Don't really fit as a sage. As the rule in the player handbook is Proficiencies Each background gives a character proficiency in two skills. Skills are described in chapter 7. In addition, most backgrounds give a character proficiency with one or more tools. Tools and tool proficiencies are detailed in chapter 5. If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead. ???
I can't help but wonder if the Knowledge Domain really competes effectively against either the Arcana or Life Domains. Arcana: free Arcana skill, +2 cantrips, Detect Magic & Magic Missile memorized at all times Life: healing boost, heavy armor prof., Bless & Cure Wounds memorized at all times Knowledge: free 2x skills+expertise, +2 languages, Command & Identify memorized at all times For starters, unless you're metagaming or there's a special situation, the language picks are kinda bad. Secondly, Command is nigh-useless, and Identify is not useful for the reasons you mentioned. Lastly, Expertise in two skills isn't a game-changer for this character because the skills are not.. well, game-changing. Compare this to what you get with the other Domains, and I think Knowledge is quite weak. What do you think?
I for one want to see how you would build this with a Deep Gnome. Without the feat from Variant Human, I put the ASI instead at 4th level Wizard so I get an Int of 19. Would like to hear your take on how a gnome would differ and compare please
I liked this video, if only because you acknowledged how you stubbornly adhere to the component rules while still criticizing them at every opportunity. :)
Is it worthwhile to prepare Inflict Wounds with your Cleric level on days when you have a 20 Portent roll? It doesn’t scale especially well, but with a guaranteed crit it starts at 33 average damage at level 1, plus 11 for every slot level higher. At level 17, an upcast 1st level spell with the help of a portent does a guaranteed average of 121 damage, handily beating out Power Word Kill (admittedly not a great spell to begin with). No saving throws, no legendary resistance. Not a bad option when you’re still waiting on proper 9th level spells, and will shock your party, unused to you going in and annihilating something in melee. Only downside is an oft-resisted damage type and the melee range. You can even use your familiar to deliver the spell if you want to stay back a bit (probably at the cost of said familiar’s life, but that’s to be expected at high levels).
Curous to know if you have taken level 2 priest at level 2 and then jumped completely to the wizard class. Being able to turn undead and knowledge of the ages, both seem pretty cool. I've not played either a cleric or Div Wiz yet in 5e these class bulds are super helpfull. Thanks Chris.
If I am doing standard array and the campaign only goes to level 10 would you still recommend this multiclass build? Or should I just go all wizard? To get 13 wisdom I would have to take a 13 in either dex or con or a 15 in intelligence. I don’t want to change from human.
I'm going to be playing this build, but i'll use artificer 1/ wizard 19 i think. That way i can get rid of all negative ability modifiers but still be tanky.
"I'm more festivious about policing my power level according to the rules for verbal somatic material components than my DM is". In case I ever do them for you, know this. I appreciate you bro
I’m torn between mending and prestidigitation. I like prestidigitation for RP purposes but not sure how much mending will come up. What are your thoughts?
You mentioned you need to get an arcane focus or a component pouch at second level, but do you realize you also need to get a spellbook somehow? You only get the starting items as cleric, so you either need to find a spellbook, or 50 gold to buy one. I guess you could downgrade your armor to get a bit more money, but just as easily you could start with wizard and only multiclass when you can afford the armor and holy symbol. I'll ask my dm about this, but that will most likely be my plan for a game we'll start this spring. Or just take the dip on second level and go without armor until I can afford it.
Ok Chris... bin dealing with a hurricane down here in Florida so just now playing catch up so far im loving this build but its got me to thinking... what cantrips would you use for your pacifist build?
If the party lacks a trap/lock/skill monkey would I lose any potency adding the second level of cleric in the tier 1 area? I'm paired with a druid who can shore up some control.
I think portent goes around advange, it exchanges the portent roll with the roll of the check you use it with, so instead of rolling with advantage you just get the portent roll as result.
Same here. I usually would forego Comprehend Languages for the Alarm spell. CL is a ritual I'll probably use. Alarm is a ritual spell I use with OCD level regularity; and, benefit from often enough to make it worthwhile.
I use magic missiles as a way to try and break the concentration of other spell casters. Most nonwizard spell casters do not have shield as most innate spell casters do not have shield. Even at first level that is three concentration checks and more if you upcast it.
actually advantage to not prevent portent from working since you use it before a roll. Any good roll of portent once ennemies start getting legendary resistances ?
I should probably wait until all 20 levels are revealed but I'm not sure I agree with how much you have given up. The 1 level dip into cleric is a known benefit, especially for armor class and cantrips.... but you have given up low level use of sleep, you gave up dex becasue of your wisdom requirement, initiative ,and stealth and you have delayed spell acquisition by that level and you delayed portent. I will love seeing your video for insights, keep up the good work.
One addition. I personally always keep guiding bolt ready. It is the ultimate oh crap blast I keep as a back up just in case I need to you know blast a Sibriex back to the abyss.
If you had done artificer 1 instead of cleric 1 do you still recommend taking war caster as the variant human feat? Or could something like the Alert feat or Tough be good choices?
so if your dm allows the new cleric domain from ua would it be a better dip than knowledge? it seems really good and gets amazing darkvision that helps mitigate vhuman's main flaw plus the advantage on initiatives seems like it would free up the wiz4 asi as alert will be less needed. might make lucky a better option
Wouldn't whether War Caster helps with the somatic and material component problem depend on what you are holding in your hands? The feat only works if you have Weapons or Shields in your hands. Are Wands, or Rods, Weapons? I can see the argument for Staffs, but what else that a high level wizard might hold counts as a Weapon for the feat?
Well at least with magic items, the item description will say if it can be used as a weapon. Though I would imagine a lot of DM's would not have a problem with you using the feat even without a weapon, just from a "common sense" point of view.
so how do you roleplay that character's development? starting as cleric then going to wizard, I mean, who does that? are there any examples of NPCs that follow similar paths? where is the precedent for this? I really want to hear this character's story. Most campaigns only run to 10th to 13th level, kinda reluctant to lose out on wizard development at ALL
Someone mentioned a school where specifically both knowledge domain clerics and diviners trained that made perfect sense for this multiclass, but I can't remember the name of it. Saw it on some redddit. . .hmm, I will try to report back if I see it again!
My first Wizard build was with a Knowledge Cleric dip. Great to have that extra AC but I needed it because our only source of healing was our tank, the Paladin.
Still not super sold on Magic Missile at 3. Rather have Grease, especially for the Grease/Web combo. Non-concentration control is so rare that it's worth grabbing when you can. It is admittedly quite situational and prone isn't super fantastic, but to me that loss of movement from standing is the best part of the spell. It's a great way to increase "stickiness" of things like Web. In my experience, Grease is a pretty good options for later rounds in combat to knock over a big bad (or even a small cluster) when you've got your concentration already occupied by something else.
I dunno. It says "anytime you would replace a die roll" right? It makes sense to me that advantage/disadvantage would have an impact, but less. So, you still get to choose which die to replace. I dunno.
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Build Summary
1: Variant Human, Int Con, War caster, Perception, 9/14/13/15/13/8. Cleric 1, Knowledge, Arcana, History, Religion, Insight. Sage, Acrobatics, Investigation. Guidance, Light, Mending, Bless, Healing Word. Mace (sell), Scale Mail (half plate), Light Crossbow, Shield, Emblem.
2: Wizard 1, Component Pouch, Minor Illusion, Ray of Frost, Toll the Dead, Find Familiar, Shield*, Absorb Elements*, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter*, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages. Shield, (crossbow).
3: Wizard 2, Diviner, Feather Fall*, Magic Missile*
4: Wizard 3, Web*, Suggestion*
Because Tasha’s Hideous Laughter incapacitates, it can be used to break concentration of other casters, even if they have CON save proficiency and warcaster.
In cases where you won't ever change it, Strength tends to be the best stat to get to an odd number as it does actually do something (in the beginning when you said CHA or STR). In the case of STR it does increase your jumping, carrying, and pushing ability (although jumping 9 feet vs. 8 feet on a 5 foot grid system, not sure how useful that is).
Good point. Particularly when you are wearing armor, an extra point of strength can really help you carry all your stuff.
+
Strength drain also exists, very rare but potentially fatal
The good thing about artificer is that we finally have a SAD multiclass option for wizard. :)
I wonder if we would use 2 levels artificer, or just one level due to how much we gain? Being able to have a bag of holding at 2nd level with magic item infusion is nice, and being able to buff your shield for +1 ac. However you also get 90% of the benefits you would want on wizard with the one level dip of artificer (con proficiency saving throw, guidance, medium armor, shields, etc)
Vorthinos i think one level at one and the none after level 17th if ever.
@@Kbaker0407 Probably one level would be best. At first level we would gain all the stuff you mentioned, plus a full caster level (meaning our spell slot progression isn't slowed at all). At second level, we only gain infusions and a half caster level (thus slowing our spell slot progression slightly). Sure, infusions are nice, but I don't think it's worth the additional delay in wizard class progression.
we are starting strahd soon. dipping twilight on a chronurgist. i am going to at least 12 on wis anyways probably and the darkvision and adv on init should be good
@@johnpaullogan1365 even better let your dm choose theurgist wizard from ua and go twilight. :)
Edit: you need 13 for mutliclass which is not a huge loss will probably just end in a negativ charisma, but as most other casters are cha based should not matter. Also one of the best things about starting ariticer is the proficiency in constitution which means you have a feat more cause you don’t need to take resilient or war-caster.
Are there any important updates to this build given the new content released in the last 2 years?
Something I like to do is use Portent on skill checks out of combat. You could have a forgery kit and put a nat 20 on your effort making that the dc for its discovery..... castle deeds, death warrants... all manner of legal acquisitions become possible.
I know you said you were going to be picking a different race for every single build, but would it be worth talking about some of the best race options for each build? For example I think High Elf would be an excellent option for this build. It has the benefit of having a wizard attack cantrip at level 1, plus it fits the theme of scholarly diviner.
High Elf is pretty nice for this build; I've made a High Elf with a very similar build (only feat selection and spells differed), and it worked out nicely. The only thing about it is that since we're wearing Medium Armor, that +2 DEX isn't as handy as it would be if you didn't get the armor.
As TM has said several times, for the most part "good" race selection is just about increasing your primary ability score. Anything with a bonus to INT will work out great, and any other racial features are just extras. IMO, if you want to play as something else, Hobgoblin is probably your best choice (+2 CON +1 INT is as good as you're gonna get for abilities, Darkvision is nice, and Saving Face is a very handy ability), maybe tied with Rock Gnome (+2 INT +1 CON is the best ability bonuses for this build) and/or Yuan-Ti Pureblood (+1 INT is good, Magic Resistance and Poison Immunity are great [2nd-most broken race in the game, after Aarakocra]). I've seen Tieflings work well too. Since your save DC is important for most of your spells, having low INT can hurt a lot.
TL;DR: Anything with an INT bonus works great. A bonus to CON is probably the best stat for your other bonus.
@@QuiescentPilot Probably depends on ability score method, but in point buy High Elf gets you to 8 / 14 / 14 / 16 / 14 / 8. I think that means any race that is 1 or 2 int and any of dex/con/wis is fine. You just change your stat allocations a bit to get to the same spread. And a 2 int race just lets you bring str or cha up to 10. So really you can pick based on which racial abilities you prefer. Which I guess is what he was getting at.
revums I always use Point-buy; it gives the player the most flexibility
Mark of Healing Halfling makes sense for a diviner
Hey, now we have the Artificer, would this be a better first level (or even later level) dip then Cleric? Can you make a video on a multiclass Artificer?
I have never in my life heard Eberron pronounced the way you did in this video. I’ve always pronounced it the same way DavvyChappy does in his videos on the plane
At least the 9 in Str increases carry capacity by 15lbs. Cha really wouldn't do anything.
I played around with this build, and I really think the Arcana domain is more appropriate than Knowledge domain.
You lose heavy armor proficiency - but you don't have the strength for that anyway. You lose one skill, two languages, and two expertises - but your expertise choices are very limited and the two you're likely to choose you are highly likely to make your checks on anyway given what they are. And those two skills are also the kind where if the DM wants the party to have that information, the DM will find a way to get it to you anyway.
But you gain the Arcana skill (which you were already going to choose) and two additional Wizard cantrips (in addition to your Cleric cantrips). This puts your Cleric cantrips at (for example): Guidance, Light, Mending, Mage Hand, and Message (and then you learn your three more Wizard cantrips at 2nd level, and another at 4th for a whopping NINE cantrips at 5th level).
And then your additional spell preparations are Magic Missile (which you were already preparing as a Wizard, so it frees up that spell book and preparation slot) and Detect Magic (which you already put in your spell book, so it frees up that spell book slot, and you can now cast it as a non-ritual if it comes up) instead of Identify (not a useful spell) and Command (not a useful spell).
To me, two more wizard cantrips, two more useful spells in your spellbook, and one more useful spell prepared, is more optimized than an additional trained skill and expertise in Arcana and History (I am ignoring the Language as anyone can learn one using Downtime anyway).
Rip, they all got uploaded in the opposite order
I scheduled them for release at the same time, I guess that was what messed it up. Next time I guess I'll put a minute between them.
Its fine its fine
@@TreantmonksTemple I think they uploaded from shortest to longest. I'm not sure of your setup/internet, but you might need more than a minute for them to be in order.
@@TreantmonksTemple Yea, it's fine. Still watchable. Just kinda funny haha
Anthony Norman
Scheduled release requires them to already be uploaded to youtube. It just makes them become visible
So...there are Augurs, which are soothsayers and omen-readers who predict the future, and then there are augers, which are carpentry tools made for boring holes in wood.
This character isn’t nearly good enough at drilling holes in wood IMO.
Oops
@@TreantmonksTemple Honestly you've ruined my fantasy of a carpentry-focused wizard. How dare you?
@@Auctarius23 Why get your hopes up if I can't smash them into oblivion for my own amusement?
Mm mm mm, love that 15 14 13 13 9 8 point buy spread. Delicious.
Also, having played a v-human knowledge cleric/diviner wizard; having bless is very handy for when you get to 3rd level and want to upcast something. I’ve even used it in a 3rd level slot. Magic missile is okay, but bless is a standout, I feel.
Man, I wish I found this channel sooner. I love these builds! Been watching for awhile and I love how in depth you get explaining all the nuances with each build. This video made me want to give a Wizard a try. Though I can't decide on specifics... I assume a Artificer1/wizard x be optimal for armor/shield/CON proficiencies, optional healing, and the all too important only being dependent in a single Ability, but I'm super torn between Diviner and Abjurer. I'd think Abjurer would help your team with Arcane Ward granting a replenishing temp hp pool for your tanks and able to even save them and your other squishy PC's in a pinch. Would an Abjurer would be an effective God Style Wizard, or is Portent that much of a game changer for forcing rolls so it makes Diviner the obvious choice? I mean, I know it's fantastic but Arcane Ward seems super fantastic too. Thoughts?
Keep up the amazing content!
When given a “useless +1” like in this video I always put it in strength. It’s probably my most “impractical power gaming” moments but for the most part, but getting a +1 to strength will always increase your carry weight. I remember agonizing over this issue before I realized “oh, this actually might be useful”
I once did a build of cleric1/wizard19 as a halfling diviner
I used the UA halfling racial feats second chance and bountiful luck
On top of this, I incorporated lucky and war caster
What the dip in cleric gave the character was a nice AC, additional skills and saving throws
If you choose to go with the light domain you gain a nifty ability called warding flare, which enables you to impose diasdvantage on melee attacks in 30ft with a reaction
Not to mention you can choose the cantrips guidance and resistance, with access to the spells bless and bane
Overall the build gets you:
Reroll 1s
Warding flares
Guidance
Resistance
Bless
Bane
Portants
Luck points
Second chance (melee attack against you has disadvantage when shield isn't enough)
Bountiful luck (whole party rerolls 1s but costs a reaction)
War caster (advantage on concentration checks)
Wizard spells such as synaptic static
I considered a bit of lore bard but wanted it to be mainly a wizard
Don't forget if you cast simulacrum all this is doubled!
Portent dice are used in place of the entire roll, so advantage / disadvantage doesn't come into play
It only replaces a single die of the roll. This is in the 2018 errata.
@@TreantmonksTemple I don't see it in the November 2018 errata document.
Why take Detect Magic at Level One Diviner when the Cleric can prep it as needed with their Knowledge / Arcana Domain 1 Level we started with? Rather than a suboptimal Healing Word why not one of the 1st Level rituals Cleric gets: Detect Magic; Detect Poison/Disease; Purify Food/Drink; or even Ceremony for cool RP moments.
If we go Knowledge we also get Identify as a useful ritual so check that box too; If we go Arcana Domain we get Detect Magic anyway + as was pointed out Magic Missile AND 2 extra wizard cantrips rather than Command which we’ll never cast with our low Wis.
Either way those Cleric flexible rituals free up other wizard spells when we take our first level there. Not Adventure League Legal if we want Xanathar spells but a nice trade off.
So... I have been playing this build in a homebrew campaign within a Theros setting.
We also are using the piety system and this whole build combined with the Oracle traits it all sync's up so well with each other.
Between the already high roles for knowledge checks, the researcher background, portent, oracle gimmicks, knowing all languages and spell selections....
Well I missed out on one session once and they did mention it was harder without the support.
Love the channel as always. Great advice. Just a heads-up, a spellbook is neither free, nor does it magically appear when you become a wizard. You'll need to spend 50 GP to buy a spellbook, if you aren't gifted one by an NPC. Maybe splurge for an enduring spellbook if your DM sells those for cheap and gave you a level 1 quest full of loot!
Edit: typos
Jack Marder When I did this build, I worked it out with my DM that I’d taken a loan from an NPC to purchase a spellbook before the campaign began. Made for a fun side mission once we’d leveled up a bit.
Hi Treantmonk. Your channel is just what the doctor ordered. I've been struggling to find resources for character creation that aren't just a rambling list of features class abilities and spells with little in the way of a study guide. Thanks for making your character sheets available.
Oh boy, almost one year.
My character y Lv 8 (1 cleric 7 Wiz)
When Eberron is released, are you planning to review the Artificer?
I'm coming back to this video because I may be playing as a Diviner in my next big campaign and I'm wondering if you would now substitute the Artificer for the Cleric.
Been looking forward to this one...
What are your thoughts on starting with artificer and going to divination after? Does it cause more delay to spell progression? I was just considering it because you wouldn't have to use the wisdom in your point buy and could allocate your points to good attributes. Plus you get constitution saves and the same armor. your thoughts, sir? Thanks!
would appreciate a video with your thoughts on what you'd change on this build after tasha's
The problem with warcaster is that the players handbook specifies "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components-or to hold a spellcasting focus-but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components." So a typical wizard with a shield from multiclassing cleric and a staff or spellbook in the other hand can cast spells perfectly fine. And if you're just a wizard without a shield then you don't even care because even a bladesinger just uses one weapon and leaves the other hand free
Knowledge Cleric 1/Wizard X gives:
- Medium armor and shields
- 2 free INT skills w/ expertise
- Access to good cleric spells that don’t need WIS (guidance, bless, etc)
And it only delays your Wizard spells known by 1 level without delaying your spell slot progression.
I guess you could argue that’s more of a wizard multi class, but I personally would start with the 1 level of cleric for the armor right at level 1. Plus, it gives you proficiency in CHA saves instead of INT saves, and I’d rather have decent saves to both INT and CHA than a really good INT save.
No you said Eh-bear-on last time, it’s Ebb-Er-on
@@wizard380 th-cam.com/video/M1tHYx_sr6o/w-d-xo.html
I believe you can get the medium armor and shield profeciency even if you multiclass into cleric- would perhaps getting the first level of cleric at level 2 alleviate early game issues? You start with less armor, but you get to select sleep at first level and use attack cantrips right away (including ray of frost to keep opponents at bay).
Are you starting in Cleric* it due to the starting equipment Clerics get? Or were you more interested in their other proficiencies (Cha saving throws vs Intelligence)?
*Edited to make my question a bit clearer :P
The decision is mainly based on the armor, given that ability scores and wizard spell selection was different based on the assumption of armor
Also starting as a cleric gives you all simple weapons instead of the wizard's list of 5 simple weapons.
On equipment, scale mail and mace has the same value as the spellbook. The light crossbow and 20 bolts and case is worth more than the component pouch.
This does not include the shield and holy symbol.
False life is a great spell to take with this build as the scaling is fantastic throughout level 20. Do you see value in this spell instead of magic missile?
I played a Hlafling Diviner and one time i rolled a 1 as part of my portent, i used that one a boss creatures attack that would of hit an injured character and the DM rolled a 1 for it's second attack causing "the machine to be glitched". The monster ended up being turned around at attempting to attack our heavily armored fighter and missing.
Starting at 1minute 15 seconds....
"This is kind of the God Wizard build"
He keeps secrets from us! Such a wizard's mind set. You cut me deep sir 😉
As a high elf i got to 14 wis, took sacred flames, guidance, and light, for cantrip, for my racial cantrip i took mage hand but i could swap it for RoF or minor ilusión
Man I gotta say tier-1 lacks some punch. I am sure it gets better with higher levels, but it seems very weak in tier-1. Your only "punch" spells require Portent, which you only get 0 to 2 of (you could in fact roll two mid-higher rolls thus not helping foes lose a save at all).
This ends up being a buff build at level 1, which isn't a bad thing IMO. Web brings a mass area punch at level 4. If you wanted to use sleep while it's still really effective, you could switch the level 1 dip to level 2, it's really about whether you want to have more offense or defense/buffing at level 1.
I'd started with the first lvl of wizard, otherwise great. Even though knowledge domain it's better concept-wise, other domains like Light or Arcana are interesting too, any insight?
Out of curiosity, why would you start with wizard? Starting cleric gives you free armor, more out of combat utility through skills and languages, and bless when it has the biggest impact.
@@aethon0563 the free spellbook it's almost as good at first lvl, also sleep a first lvl it's better than bless.
Just now going through this. Why does DND Beyond only show that the only feat I can take is Grappler?
Eberron is pronounced the way you pronounced it because it's made up.. and I also say it like that.
I must express my love for this build. It brings me back to the open possibilities of precious editions. Bravo and thanks!
Hi Chris! I'm about to start a diviner at level 1. What changes would you make now that new spells are available?
@Treantmonk pretty sure that Portent replaces the final roll so an enemy with advantage on saves still has to accept the portent as the final roll
The 2018 errata indicates specifically that any ability that replaces a roll only replaces one die if there is advantage/disadvantage
Treantmonk's Temple wow, okay, didn’t catch that one. BTW, great job on these videos. Really well done
@@dhaas4698 Thank you!
Treantmonk's Temple I don’t see anything in the errata to indicate this is true; in fact, sage advice indicates that Daniel is right.
You will find it under "using ability scores"
dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/errata-november-2018
"This is the Oger-build"....
Wot???
🤔
😅
Similar to my build but i never know what feat to take. Warcaster is so boring, but due to mutliclass magic iniate is wasted...
could get linguist and have even more languages
@@finnianquail8881 i mean nowadays you have great feats. Just start with a 17 and get fey touched or telecinetic. Is linguist really that usefull for a class with comprehend languages. To be honest i have never seen languages really used unless its some special text that needs translation and then comprehend languages works fine or if you want to overhear somebody in a tavern then again shortly cast comprehend languages beforehand.
Compared to two addional spells which one could be gift of alacrity and misty step which i take for every wizard anyway or telecinetic for forced movement, save myself or allies and have something to do with your bonus action. A lot of spells become a lot better when you can shove your enemies back in the area of effect every turn.
Also 12th level is now more intersting with The sorcery point feat for secret suggestions or spells that cannot be countered or double the summoning time.
@@finnianquail8881 sorry just noticed its the diviner video. For a diviner sorcery points is probably even better cause they use save or suck spells like dominate monster and now double it makes it even better or make sure that no countrr spell wastes our portent.
Will be following this guide for my upcoming capaign, thanks for making this
What do you think, is a high elf a good idea for race?
Omg im Doing this build at a friends house
I think this should be Augur rather than auger.
I don't understand.
When we are at the third level (Cleric1/Diviner2), where are your second level slots?
I see 5 first level slots (2 for the cleric spells and 3 for the wizard spells).
What do I miss?
@@skymanta1222 Yes you do, I was stupid here.
@@skymanta1222 Yep
Note to wizard fans:
Most spell scrolls are written in draconic, so draconic language proficiency is always nice to have as a wizard.
Edit: Also, It is false that war caster's opportunity attack ability is bad. If you have someone cast command and force them to move past you, you can then cast a spell such as fireball to a group of enemies, as a reaction. You don't have to cast it on the person who moved past you.
alot of DM's don't allow multiclassing
Advantage does not effect Portent
I'm building an Artificer + Diviner Wizard using a Forest Gnome (+2 Int, +1 Dex; Gnome Cunning; Minor Illusion cantrip) with an Inheritor Feat (Survival plus choice of *Arcana*, History, or Nature; a third language = Dwarvish; automatic acquisition of all gear you are proficient with, such as a shield, thieves' tools, tinker's tools, and a third tool = leatherworker's tools).
Artificer give Perception and Investigation, medium armor and shield proficiency (can get AC 18 at 1st-level), and proficiency in thieves' tools and tinker's tools, as well as full 8+Con HP at 1st level.
Then I'll go 4 levels of Wizard before deciding to get Artificer 2 Artillerist or not. After getting Artillerist, go up to Wizard 6 (9th character level) before deciding whether to go to Artificer 5 Artillerist to get the Arcane Firearm feature, depending on how the campaign plays out at the 10th level onward.
This character progression pattern matches the indecisiveness of the Gnome character I'm playing because he loves both artifice and regular arcane spell-casting.
Not sure if you're trolling us with the Eberron pronunciation. If so, well played, sir!
I understand, it's Aye-berron. I'll fix it on the next vid. I'll get it eventually.
@@TreantmonksTemple Okay, Fonzie
About the Sage background. You took 2 differents skills Acrobatic and Investigation,
Can you choose Acrobatic? Don't really fit as a sage.
As the rule in the player handbook is
Proficiencies
Each background gives a character proficiency in two
skills. Skills are described in chapter 7.
In addition, most backgrounds give a character
proficiency with one or more tools. Tools and tool
proficiencies are detailed in chapter 5.
If a character would gain the same proficiency from
two different sources, he or she can choose a different
proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead.
???
I can't help but wonder if the Knowledge Domain really competes effectively against either the Arcana or Life Domains.
Arcana: free Arcana skill, +2 cantrips, Detect Magic & Magic Missile memorized at all times
Life: healing boost, heavy armor prof., Bless & Cure Wounds memorized at all times
Knowledge: free 2x skills+expertise, +2 languages, Command & Identify memorized at all times
For starters, unless you're metagaming or there's a special situation, the language picks are kinda bad. Secondly, Command is nigh-useless, and Identify is not useful for the reasons you mentioned. Lastly, Expertise in two skills isn't a game-changer for this character because the skills are not.. well, game-changing.
Compare this to what you get with the other Domains, and I think Knowledge is quite weak. What do you think?
I for one want to see how you would build this with a Deep Gnome. Without the feat from Variant Human, I put the ASI instead at 4th level Wizard so I get an Int of 19. Would like to hear your take on how a gnome would differ and compare please
I liked this video, if only because you acknowledged how you stubbornly adhere to the component rules while still criticizing them at every opportunity. :)
Is it worthwhile to prepare Inflict Wounds with your Cleric level on days when you have a 20 Portent roll? It doesn’t scale especially well, but with a guaranteed crit it starts at 33 average damage at level 1, plus 11 for every slot level higher. At level 17, an upcast 1st level spell with the help of a portent does a guaranteed average of 121 damage, handily beating out Power Word Kill (admittedly not a great spell to begin with). No saving throws, no legendary resistance. Not a bad option when you’re still waiting on proper 9th level spells, and will shock your party, unused to you going in and annihilating something in melee. Only downside is an oft-resisted damage type and the melee range. You can even use your familiar to deliver the spell if you want to stay back a bit (probably at the cost of said familiar’s life, but that’s to be expected at high levels).
Curous to know if you have taken level 2 priest at level 2 and then jumped completely to the wizard class. Being able to turn undead and knowledge of the ages, both seem pretty cool. I've not played either a cleric or Div Wiz yet in 5e these class bulds are super helpfull. Thanks Chris.
If I am doing standard array and the campaign only goes to level 10 would you still recommend this multiclass build? Or should I just go all wizard? To get 13 wisdom I would have to take a 13 in either dex or con or a 15 in intelligence. I don’t want to change from human.
I just got Baldur's gate 3. The first thing I'm going to do is make this type of Wizard. So hype!
I'm going to be playing this build, but i'll use artificer 1/ wizard 19 i think. That way i can get rid of all negative ability modifiers but still be tanky.
"I'm more festivious about policing my power level according to the rules for verbal somatic material components than my DM is". In case I ever do them for you, know this. I appreciate you bro
I’m about to run this build through Netherdeep with the Eldritch Adept feat: relying on Devils sight. Can’t wait!
I’m torn between mending and prestidigitation. I like prestidigitation for RP purposes but not sure how much mending will come up. What are your thoughts?
You mentioned you need to get an arcane focus or a component pouch at second level, but do you realize you also need to get a spellbook somehow? You only get the starting items as cleric, so you either need to find a spellbook, or 50 gold to buy one. I guess you could downgrade your armor to get a bit more money, but just as easily you could start with wizard and only multiclass when you can afford the armor and holy symbol. I'll ask my dm about this, but that will most likely be my plan for a game we'll start this spring. Or just take the dip on second level and go without armor until I can afford it.
Ok Chris... bin dealing with a hurricane down here in Florida so just now playing catch up so far im loving this build but its got me to thinking... what cantrips would you use for your pacifist build?
If the party lacks a trap/lock/skill monkey would I lose any potency adding the second level of cleric in the tier 1 area? I'm paired with a druid who can shore up some control.
I like doing Order Cleric instead because you can support your party even more when you cast a spell on them.
using point buy, high elf can have 8/16/14/16/12/8 stats
I think portent goes around advange, it exchanges the portent roll with the roll of the check you use it with, so instead of rolling with advantage you just get the portent roll as result.
I think this can be improved even more now with Silvery Barbs to force more enemy re-rolls.
What if we use only standard array. Should i dump(only 13) dex or con?
How would this build be as a Yuan TI Pure Blood if Stats were Rolled and I rolled really well and got a 18 Int right off?
I've been waiting for this! :D I recently started building a similar concept and I am curious to see where we have different approaches!
Same here. I usually would forego Comprehend Languages for the Alarm spell. CL is a ritual I'll probably use. Alarm is a ritual spell I use with OCD level regularity; and, benefit from often enough to make it worthwhile.
One question can you make this work with standard array with a variant human? Sorry for the stupid question.
I use magic missiles as a way to try and break the concentration of other spell casters. Most nonwizard spell casters do not have shield as most innate spell casters do not have shield. Even at first level that is three concentration checks and more if you upcast it.
actually advantage to not prevent portent from working since you use it before a roll. Any good roll of portent once ennemies start getting legendary resistances ?
If you drop a creature out of the sky with hideous laughter and it takes fall damage it gets to reroll the save, right?
I should probably wait until all 20 levels are revealed but I'm not sure I agree with how much you have given up. The 1 level dip into cleric is a known benefit, especially for armor class and cantrips.... but you have given up low level use of sleep, you gave up dex becasue of your wisdom requirement, initiative ,and stealth and you have delayed spell acquisition by that level and you delayed portent. I will love seeing your video for insights, keep up the good work.
One addition. I personally always keep guiding bolt ready. It is the ultimate oh crap blast I keep as a back up just in case I need to you know blast a Sibriex back to the abyss.
Mark of healing halfling seems the better option but good build
Nice the Sub class i settled with.
If you had done artificer 1 instead of cleric 1 do you still recommend taking war caster as the variant human feat? Or could something like the Alert feat or Tough be good choices?
Finding this video 4 levels into a pure diviner wizard hurts 😅
man i love knowledge 1/ wizard x so much
so if your dm allows the new cleric domain from ua would it be a better dip than knowledge? it seems really good and gets amazing darkvision that helps mitigate vhuman's main flaw plus the advantage on initiatives seems like it would free up the wiz4 asi as alert will be less needed. might make lucky a better option
Thank you.
Hey what do you think about Mind Spike as an spell option?
how do you pivot this diviner build to better fight off monsters with magic resistance, like devils?
How do you adapt this build if you go straight wizard?
Where is from the 2 skills expertise what give that ?
Wouldn't whether War Caster helps with the somatic and material component problem depend on what you are holding in your hands? The feat only works if you have Weapons or Shields in your hands. Are Wands, or Rods, Weapons? I can see the argument for Staffs, but what else that a high level wizard might hold counts as a Weapon for the feat?
Well at least with magic items, the item description will say if it can be used as a weapon. Though I would imagine a lot of DM's would not have a problem with you using the feat even without a weapon, just from a "common sense" point of view.
so how do you roleplay that character's development? starting as cleric then going to wizard, I mean, who does that? are there any examples of NPCs that follow similar paths? where is the precedent for this? I really want to hear this character's story. Most campaigns only run to 10th to 13th level, kinda reluctant to lose out on wizard development at ALL
Someone mentioned a school where specifically both knowledge domain clerics and diviners trained that made perfect sense for this multiclass, but I can't remember the name of it. Saw it on some redddit. . .hmm, I will try to report back if I see it again!
Would you use custom lineage in tashas?
My first Wizard build was with a Knowledge Cleric dip. Great to have that extra AC but I needed it because our only source of healing was our tank, the Paladin.
Still not super sold on Magic Missile at 3. Rather have Grease, especially for the Grease/Web combo. Non-concentration control is so rare that it's worth grabbing when you can. It is admittedly quite situational and prone isn't super fantastic, but to me that loss of movement from standing is the best part of the spell. It's a great way to increase "stickiness" of things like Web. In my experience, Grease is a pretty good options for later rounds in combat to knock over a big bad (or even a small cluster) when you've got your concentration already occupied by something else.
Grease is a good choice
I dunno. It says "anytime you would replace a die roll" right? It makes sense to me that advantage/disadvantage would have an impact, but less. So, you still get to choose which die to replace. I dunno.
That is the official way, you replace one die.