Yup, I just went in for 1 dollar because I feel the fomo during a campaign. I already don't feel it and think core only will do with maybe X-Men retail.
@@johnpanagos5835 hopefully for a system like Zombicide they have a good base... But true i back some games that even after 2 year (super delay) they are still working on the rulebook...
Great video, I want to add something as a (professional) miniature painter: cost per play/experiental value also increases (for me) when painting the miniatures, and the experience it gives. Apart from that, for "cost per play" you shouldn't look too black and white on actual plays, but also on hours. for example: I played tainted grail in 20 sessions, but for 60 hours total. where, with marvel united with 20 sessions it would be more around 10 hours. with these values in mind, games of 4k euro (painted game) are in that expiriental range
Agreed, with cmon games the miniatures are a big part of it. If you're a miniature painter, this is the only place to get the majority of these heroes in miniature form.
I still have a bunch of Warhammer armies collecting dust - I only recently started playing boardgames. I started implementing my formula for videogames on boardgames to determine whether they are worth it: I need to get one hour of enjoyment out of each euro I spent on something. In the case of Marvel Zombies, it comes down to way more than just gameplay. I habe painting experience from Warhammer and am already planning out color schemes, I watch lorevideos of Galactus and other characters I knew less of, I keep on scrolling through the Kickstarter page because of the hype. In this case it's so much more than just gameplay to me, it's the entire package that comes with it that's made me go all in.
Yep, that is a good way to look at it. If you spend a 1000 dollars on a board game, but play it for over 1000 hours in total, then that is a good deal. Many people spend more then they think per hour of entertainment on cheaper things. Like if you spend 50 dollars to take a friend to a zoo for 3 hours vs spending 200 dollars on a game you play with him for 200 hours over the course of several years.
I mentioned this in another video, but I really love how you not only do board game reviews and unboxings, but also discuss board game adjacent topics in depth. FOMO, industry issues, shipping issues, kickstarter practices, state of the hobby, struggles that consumers face, the sort of topics that don't get discussed a bunch in the board game channel sphere.
I just couldn’t justify the cost. I didn’t like that they were effectively splitting the game in half, with zombies and heroes. I felt like they were forcing me to spend more to get the full experience and pushing the FOMO. I also got sick of the constant updates filing up my inbox, so I cancelled my base pledge a week before the campaign ended.
I also felt like being pushed too hard. "For 130$ you only get the zombie mode, pay at least 240$! (plus shipping and VAT) And make sure to not wait for retail, you get some of the most iconic heroes only here on KS!" I'm usually on the All-In side of KS campaigns so effectively this wouldn't have affected me in ANY way but I felt FORCED by their psychological stunts so I didn't back. No, these manipulation strategies were too obvious, I don't want to feel like I fell for the bait and into their trap. But since I got hyped for a thematic, immersive miniature experience in the MARVEL universe I finally pulled the trigger for Marvel Crisis Protocol, so thank you, CMON! 😀
Me and three friends go to the movies. At 10$ a ticket that's 40$ for 90-120 minutes of an experience on some form of entertainment. I have some 40$ board games that I've played ten times. The experience of time playing games with family is worth a different price to all. Just don't spend outside your means, know your limit. If it feels like it's too much, it might just be.
As a former warhammer player I don't flinch when I see such a price I've two models which costed more. But over the years I developed a "what I could get instead" mindset. The game might be great but I could get 10 games for that price which will get played more often and offer a better expierience in my opinion.
Kind of limited point of view. I could have said the same a year ago but I own all the games I want now. It's not like there is an inexhaustible list of titles I would pay to get a chance to try. Maybe you're more of an equal opportunity gamer where you're happy trying anything
I was out on this one. I have enough Zombicide for the next several years. I appreciate all the stuff included in this, but at thensamw.time it feels like a money grab as well. The deciding factor for me was my finances. I'm.just no longer able to drop that kind of cash on a single game that may or may not be great. Oddly, the giant model didn't appeal to me this time. Probably because I'm kind of a Marvel fan but not as into it as many are. When I sat down and thought able what else I could do with $650, it was a no-brainer. For me, the value just isn't there. I hope everyone who does get it enjoys it. It looks like great it could be great fun.
I once decided to pay £350 for all-in game - never again. Nowadays, I am willing to pay £200 for an awesome game, at most. Paying $600 for a game cannot be justified IMHO, it will always be too much compared to amount of gameplay you get. By paying $600 you admit it is fine to get screwed. In case of Marvel Zombies you pay for plastic and Marvel®. The same was with Monster Hunter - people went all-in for a game, which was waaay overpriced just because they loved it - immidiate brain freeze. But I get, that if you live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world then you don't care.
Depends who you are and what you want to do with it, for me it's a hobby opportunity that will last 2-3 years in terms of value from a painting perspective, I also earn enough so the amount of money back needed is negligible, I will also sell another Zombicide to cover the cost and free up space resulting in essentially a zero cost, so essentially for me I'm no worse off financially, I'll get to paint some incredibly creative sculpts and play the game 10-20 times in the next few years. Of course, you could argue that I could have just sold off my board games and gained some wealth, but there is no value in that, as stated in the video the experiences offered and a chance to be creative has more value than a few hundred in my pocket. Now that said, I did not go all-in on this, but $300 is significant, the point is, for someone somewhere it is entirely justifiable, and for many, it will be a huge overindulgence or regretful decision where people have scrimped and saved on something that is probably a better idea of something to own rather than the actual experience.
@@Jak0vas I don't know, where are you from, but 90%+ of second-hand board games are being sold in US. So if you are from US, then great, but since I am not, selling a board game is not so easy. Of course everything depends on the person. If you are willing and can spend that money nobody will stop you.
It will likely be a while before the next one. And the apology isn't for you, or for me, it's for the fact that I know that for every person who's happy to watch another video on the subject, there is someone else who wishes I would move on :)
What an excellent video and topic. I struggle at times when I’m investing in games that I love, thinking “am I going to far? “ This is a great way to look at it. I’ve spent hundreds on Nemesis ie paints, inserts, sleeves, expansions and Bg accessories and yet I don’t feel bad about it. I’ve got 20-30 plays under my belt. Breaking it down this way, justifies spending if you love the experience. Not to mention the culture shock of seeing someone experiencing the game for the first time! Awesome video man. Thanks for sharing
This was an easy pass - too much space, too expensive and a combination of IP and gameplay that would be a miss for the people I play with. Have also started to resent CMON more and more for their exploitation of FOMO. I caved on Marvel United X-Men but I expect that will have been the last CMON game I back.
EASY pass. Also one of their worst ran KS'ers when it comes to stretch goals and just overall value. As soon as they start delivering this KS they will launch a supplemental one just like they did Marvel United. Additionally, IMO CMON gives absolutely terrible value for what they charge.
I was all-in on the first one but only got selected add-ons from Xmen United, I've broken the cycle (glances at my all-ins on the shelf for BR, RS and Ankh)
These companies like CMON are just exploiting people with OCD. They don't even need to use Kickstarter to produce their games. The platform was intended for indie developers to fund projects, not successful companies. They just do it because they know they can dangle the carrot in front of obsessive compulsive nerds and quadruple their profits before they've even made the game. It's pretty crappy, really. Yeah, they're making tons of cash but OCD is no joke and they're exploiting it for money.
I don’t know if you calculate number of players into cost per play because technically if you have 3 or 4 players per game and you want average of $15/player per play since they also get enjoyment then it can drop even more
Part of the experiential factor for me is the artistic quality and design that goes into a game and sometimes how design fits with theme. There are some games that I've bought, such as Rising Sun, with the realization that I might not ever get to play them. If nothing else, their value to me is pretty much the same as a fine art painting or a quality edition of a book is to others. I have a few games in my collection that will stay whether they get played or not.
Even with the price, this game is a dream come true for me as a Marvel fan and a painter. I'm very glad I passed on Marvel United with its chibis.. ;-)
There was a time in my life when $600 meant 2-3 nights out destroying my liver. It was gone in a weekend and I had nothing to show for it. $600 for a board game that I get to enjoy for hundreds of hours and then still has monetary value which I can recoup by selling is a way better deal in my mind. I know it’s not a one or the other decision, just because I’m no longer an alcoholic doesn’t mean I HAVE to spend that money on other things. But for me it’s a reminder that if it’s making me happy, and if I can afford it, then there are much worse things I could be spending my money and time on.
Hey. You get 100 plus hours of gameplay from this, more power to you. I simply am not getting that from any one game and so for me it was an easy no. I also have all of Zombicide Invader and the 20+ new missions CMON put out the last 2 years and have barely scratched the surface.
Appreciate your insight as always, Alex. I just can't support this from CMON. And it's not just the cost, but rather not allowing more flexibility in what you can pick and choose, as well as the decision to gate characters like Iron Man behind kickstarter exclusives. This just seems so wrong to me and is just another example of CMON probably being the worst publisher in terms of preying on FOMO with their kickstarter campaigns. It actually turns me off CMON and i don't really want to support this practice by giving them my money.
Yeah, I thought Kickstarter was for indie projects that couldn't get funding any other way. Now, these very successful game companies are just using it to wring as much money as they can from nerds with OCD. They're exploiting people with genuine mental health issues to make a quick buck, which I find to be pretty scummy.
For me never but I have now done it once for too many bones because that game is a 10/10. Still an illogical spend really. A zombicide game will never rank that high for me. Now that the campaign is over my fomo is already going way down so by the time I can decide what to do with my dollar pledge who knows.
@@ScytheNoire let's be honest here, Marvel Zombies is hardly the only board game with multiple modes. You can try to rationalise your purchase to your heart's content, it is your money after all, but please don't come with this ridiculous argument.
Short answer to me is there is no reason. As I said, this was the one bridge too far moment for me on KS. I also dropped LA Granja. I think 120+ for a Euro needs serious justification for me moving forward. I love bling in my games by enough.
Dear Alex: i really want to tell you how much i appreciate these Kind of critical Videos. Personally i decided to pledge for marvel zombicide. But i like the way you reflect about it and it always makes me think about the point: Do i really need the next big Box Kickstarter and the next...
This is the first time I think I’ve heard your inner voice screaming, “What have I done!!!” My all in limit for this was $350 and once I saw that was achievable I dropped the idea like a hot potato. I will say though I can’t wait to see you unbox it. :)
All in marvel zombies is a luxury item and like most luxury things it’s value is almost entirely experiential. The best experience per dollar is entirely subjective and varies wildly from person to person. No need for justification. If you have the means to do so responsibly, enjoy the experience.
I just asked for a refund on my Chronicles of Drunagor campaign, as the $574 just had a massive $250 added in shipping and taxes. It just made me realise that no game is every worth that much money. The same applies for me to zombiecide. But everyone is different whatever makes you happy! Have a look at the gamefound comments for CoD .... not a nice place to be.
@@NeilY1000 same here when I see all the stuff that i took for example Nemesis I'm asking myself when I will play all? Just keep the base game and maybe one expansion if is really giving a boost to the game.
$600 for a board game ? We as board gamers are creating a rod for our own back...the message we are sending is this : The market is willing to pay this price and then some.
Exactly! Remember when the beautiful 3rd edition of Space Hulk hit in 2009 for $100 and people gasped? From that point on the madness which was miniature war gaming bloat took over traditional board games. The $100+ cap was broken for a box of paper and plastic and all bets were off. Kickstarter took the door which was opened and blew it off the hinges like going from lottery tickets to a Vegas casino! Lots and lots of shiny stuff, special items “thrown in” for the more people buy. Preying on the completionists’ weaknesses they made a pocket draining experience where only a small percentage of what is made and sold ever really gets used even once.
I like the $15 per play concept for just me. Having my gaming group come over and all play ZBP together (2 people having a blast for 2+ hours) felt more like a $200 night to me, because we would have spent similar to see a movie together. Even more for a concert
This was my first Cmon/Zombicide Kickstarter. And as for now, my only one. And it was fun. The character reveals, the livestreams, making a conspiracy theory about Mike's mug. But definitely something I really only want to do once. And I didnt even get Galactus. And I only got the Artist pack to push the final stretch goal. But even if I dont play with all of it. I still wanted it as my Marvel Zombies collection.
One of the statements in this video I agree with; if you're going to throw any board game out for that price tag, then you better also throw out LCGs, miniature skirmish games (a la Warhammer 40k), etc. One person even mentioned MCP? Yeah, I'm sure the cost per miniature there is just great! Now I'm not defending MZ in particular, but to put it in perspective: I used to play a lot of Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Fantasy, Fallout Wasteland Warfare, Runewars, and Flames of War. It feels a bit crazy to say this out loud, but 600 $ is nothing! (ok obviously, 600 $ is not nothing, but it's all relative!) Now that being said, I DO think that the best games are almost always the cheapest ones that can be got at retail: 1) Mage Knight Ultimate Edition is like, 100 $. It's awesome. Tons of quality gameplay. 2) Pandemic Legacy Season 1, 63 $ on the miniature market, probably the most immersive campaign I've ever played in a board game. 3) Spirit Island, about 90$? Fantastic asymmetric cooperative gameplay. 4) Gloomhaven can be gotten for under 100 $ these days, I think; it's at #1 on BGG for good reason, it doesn't suck. 5) Mansions of Madness 2nd ed, I think can also be gotten for under 100 $ these days. I personally hate Cthulhu, I think it's overdone, and the theme actively works against my enjoyment, and I STILL like this game. 4/5 of those games don't even have any KSE! So why spend 600 $ on a single board game? A rough analogy I can think of is PC gaming. You don't NEED the newest graphics card. Your 80 % FPS, slightly dialed back graphics, or 1440p vs 4k whatever is fine. But if you love the heck of out computer games, and you've budgeted your disposable income appropriately, and you really WANT that newest graphics card... then you do you! And besides. That 600 $ Marvel Zombies game will probably hold its value just fine, years down the road. It may even end up being worth more! That 700 $ GPU, er... will not.
It wasn't easy to pass on because the minis are beautiful. But I'm tired of being over charged on shipping costs. This started during Hate and has gotten increasingly worse. I've passed on alot of their games and will continue to do so because of this issue.
Ehhh but out of the reasons the increase in shipping costs is actually justifiable. We can just see this with container prices, or even if you wanted to ship something via fedex.
Good analysis. An important point is that everyone's criteria are different, are weighted differently, and they are in different circumstances (e.g. realistic number of plays expected) which can heavily influence the outcome. So just because something makes sense (or doesn't) for someone else does not mean it makes sense (or doesn't) for you. The problem that can arise is when you let the hype and justification of others override your own personal analysis based on your specific circumstances. In any case, appreciate the discussion. It's another example of your thoughtful and logical approach to a subject that is often characterized by emotional and vocal extremes. Thanks!
I went all in for The Witcher, over $500 CAD, and I still can't believe I spent that much for a board game (and expansions of course). That was 2 full year's budget for games in one single purchase. I can't buy a game until 2023.
There’s people that spend small fortunes on collecting figurines that you can’t play with, they’re just for display, which board gamer would think that’s worth it?
@@BoardGameCo i really appreciate your discussions on value and your tutorials on reselling and such, I feel like that’s missing from a lot of board game channels
I backed both Stormsunder and Chronicles of Drunagor + expansions+ add-ons for both. I don’t care spending money on games i know i will like and has a lot of depth in the gameplay. For Marvel Zombies i find the game too light to spend that much money. I know i will get tired quickly of that game.
Haha reverse reason for why I didn't back those two games. I haven't been able to even make it through Gloomhaven all the way and still want to play Middara so I can't buy more big Rpg games lol
While I backed both Stormsunder and Chronicles of Drunagor. Chronicles of Drunagor is really light as well, even though it has a compelling story. I didn't back Marvel Zombies because of the theme, but if it was a Marvel theme game against just Villains I probably would have spend that 600$ for the All-IN.
@@justicebolt5293 Yeah I do admit that. Funny thing is I got Chronicles because it was lighter, because my game group was getting tired of these more complicated games.
I think the general rule here is what your finances are and acceptance that board games are an expensive hobby, BUT if it's a rewarding one then you can't put a price tag on it. CMON games are also very easy flips from KS, so if your mind changes then you're usually in the black for the entire ordeal. I've turned on a dime with games that I once thought would be excellent, only for reviews to shed light on finer details and then dumped them on eBay for someone else. As long as you're stable in life and able to make informed decisions, then there's no justification required.
I am not interested in Zombicide, just not for me, but for me I see games as fun and agree with you that the game is worth it when you decide it is. I just went all in with Tanares RPG/Boardgame bundle (probably around 750 after all is said and done) because I have friends that play boardgames and D&D weekly and will provide a weekly play for about the next 2-1/2+ years. Along with the art and lore background I am invested in. But for others it definitely wouldn't be. Thanks for a great video Alex!
Love the $15 per play concept - I'm adapting it to a tenner a play in Sterling. Suddenly I feel a lot better about the attic (I might add in some insulation value as well . . . .)
Another big value point for me is painting. The enjoyment of painting not to mention the lessons I learn that help me improve are another value point to consider. Plus I can use the minis for decoration. I look forward to Galactus especially since I finally got an airbrush this holiday. Another aspect I like is how I can make my own stories with this and MU. I can make a battle against The Avengers and Hydra and if I lose I can go ok Hydra rules the world now I will come up with my own campaign to overthrow Hydra
I have multiple games that cost $400 and more, now most of those were over time (which I do wish was the case with Kickstarters). For me having a small collection (of games) with a lot of expansions/variability is better then having 100s of games.Now if you buy/sell games regularly (shipping on all-ins is problematic), need to use credit cards (going in debt over a luxury item isn’t wise) or you want quantity of different games over quantity of the same game then it’s best if you don’t go for all-ins. I’d be worried if all games were getting as pricey as most miniature games but there are plenty of games still coming out for under $100.
So I bought zombicide season 1, the original for 80€ back in the day. Me and a friend played it around 50 times. And we will play it this week too. Marvel zombicide for 600 $? Objectively the value of any game should be its mechanics and fun factor. Divided by time it takes to play . So the shorter it takes to play the game and the more fun it is, the greater the value. King of Average argued that many of his games aren't worth anything really as they don't get played.
Just think if every backer bought galactus (which didn’t happen) that means there is at most 28 000 plus change in all of existence That’s nothing it will hold it’s value if not increase when some people get buyers remorse for not getting it
I certainly wanted to go all in on this but I just couldn't afford the price point. Made worse by another Kickstarter I was excited for running at the same time Also, could you do that video about Marvel United that you talked about?
It isn't $600 though as it's more like $750 - $800+ including shipping and for my country its + 20% VAT so your really nearly up at the $1000 mark. I like Zombicide it's a solid if shallow game but for me adding additional characters only matters if they play very differently. So overall for myself personally it would have been a poor choice as lots of different characters isn't content to me unless they play very differently. Still can understand those who really just want a specific favourite character. Ultimately CMON can charge what they like and use whatever manipulative marketing approaches they see fit to maximise profits. We do have the choice of Retail and I'd suspect for many this it's more than enough. It's a moot point now but I think they possibly left a great deal of money on the table.
I simply don’t make enough money for a 600 dollar board game to ever be worth it. Cost per play is definitely a valid point as my copy of Gloomhaven has made itself well worth it over the years. But there’s a disparity between Marvel Zombies and other projects. Yes, you could end up playing Marvel Zombies a ton, but there are other games which are far less expensive and promise more gameplay content. Aeon Trespass offered 300 hours of unique gameplay content at the all-in pledge, and that pledge was less than half the price of Marvel Zombies. In theory, you’d have to play Marvel Zombies 200 times to get to 300 hours and then you’d have to play it 200 more times to make it the same cost per play as Aeon Trespass. On top of that, I’m far more likely to play a campaign board game for a huge amount of hours to see it through to the end. Marvel Zombies has scenarios, but variability is what keeps people playing. Are people really going to have 600 hours worth of variability? No way. There’s definitely been far better deals out there.
With my limited budget, going all-in on something this expensive is just not worth it when the alternative would mean I could buy a fair number of other amazing games like Mind MGMT, Ark Nova, Radlands etc. for the same overall cost.
I think the IP is the top one or two reasons people go "all in". I went all in on Masters of the Universe because it's been one of my top three favorite IPs and I've waited over 30 years for someone to put something decent on my table top. It could've been an RPG or deck builder and I would've been all in.
Basically I’m doing that cost per play as well. Usually I compare it to ‚going to the cinema.‘ Of course, you can also take the resale value into account. BUT: This calculation misses one important aspect. Would I have had the same amount of fun with the 120€ pledge? With the 240€ pledge? And honestly the answer often is ‚yes.‘ Often the base game would have been the best value in terms of ‚cost per play.‘ By far! But yeah… I’m also often all in for the games that I think I’m going to love.
Really fascinating video. I'm having to be more discerning with kickstarters as my partner and I recently bought a house and have less spare money, space is limited and I'm getting stick for not playing the games I've got! Which app do you use / recommend to record your plays? I think I should be doing that... Thanks!
Bottom line: If you can afford it + the game brings you joy = go ahead and spend😊. For me, I'm running out of space in my condo for board games so I'm becoming more selective on kickstarter pledges and I'll only back what I think my gaming group will enjoy.
I love the type of videos where Alex talks about topics outside of game mechanics, especially where he dicusses Kickstarter backs and how to ne reasonable with your money and time. However, I love the videos even more where Alex throws all his valuable advice out of the window and does the complete opposite, because his FOMO kicked in. This is no criticism by the way. As a board game content creator he might make back a bit of the money and I am already excited for the Marvel Zombies unboxing and rambeling.
Alex I loved the video and agreed with everything you said… but got distracted by the cup holders where the grain wasn’t lined up 🤯 It must be the OCD in me but please fix it 😂 I had to just have the sound on and couldn’t watch the video. 😅 Having said that really love the content.
I have, over time, paid about $600 on Too Many Bones. I have played...50? Hours so far over the last couple of years and I fee like I need to put more time into it to feel like it's worth it to me, but I am confident that I will continue to play and get my money's worth. But I also have Gaia Project for $90 that I have put about that many hours into as well...so. yeah. I think ~$300-400 is the absolute most I would ever pay in one chunk for a board game. I've done it a couple of times, and I'm not sure they're worth it yet. We'll see.
Cost per hour or cost per play helps me reconcile the cost of a game. If you play it, it ends up worth it compared to the expense of other entertainment options. Could easily drop $300 on dinner, drinks and gambling in one night. A game, or boxes of games, will get played for 3 or so hours, perhaps 10-20 times in a year.
I've spent $600 on Too many bones all in (maybe more) no regrets. I'm all in on the Witcher. I'm not scratching for the cash to invest in new games - however I more or less decide to buy games at a certian pace. Sometimes I just ignore cool new games because I want new games to be meaningful - too many too fast causes them to feel less valuable.
Initially I thought the hero core box being in the $240 was just regular cmon fomo. Then at the end when there are almost double the number of hero stretch goals vs zombie stretch goals it became sickenly clear why they put the box in the $240 pledge.
I am getting into the hobby of board games as it's my passion, and your videos always give me new insights, considerations, and cautions. I got the Galactus pledge, leaning to getting two expansions. $600 is a lot of money, but as you said, I made a choice that I accept for enjoyment/experience value and love of Xmen IP. Cmon games are a safe bet I enjoy and will hold its value. So, like you, I am for backing Marvel zombies, and I can't wait to play it.
I really wanted to get this but I have over 100 board games now and to think I could spend $600 on each of those would be insane. As I get older the ability to play games is dropping a lot , and even more so with covid. I just can't justify spending so much and not getting enough plays in. I can see where this could be "worth it" for some but let's be honest, half of the people all in on this will never scratch the surface of the content. Something like Yugioh or MTG is a lifestyle and you will spend 100s of hours playing it. A board game competes with every other board game on the shelf.
well... i did what you said: "buy the core plus the sentinels", as my first zombicide acquisition, i feel i will be ok with the purchase, and it will be a very, very nice add-on to marvel champions
@Alex, agreed on all points. I'd add in addition, if you like to paint minis thats another value added to these miniatures board games. As a suggestion, use a random name picker app/ draw name out of a bag to select your characters to play your zombicide games going forward to guarantee you have experienced all content.
true about the painting, but then again a decision for me not to back was the dread of my existing painting backlog (with more KS still to be delivered), and I've got a 3d resin printer so its hard for me to justify buying a game just to have something to paint. In fact I bought my printer to stop me going all-in on games like these.
This is the one and only reason I bought Massive Darkness 2. I had no light dungeon crawl, but it was more to have the minis that looked really good for D&D at a relatively cheap per mini cost.
Thank you Alex for this well thought out video. I enjoyed your point of view about backing expensive games. Thank you for a balanced view. I was on the fence about backing all way through the kick starter. I didn't want to play zombie heroes, but the hero part of game was locked behind core pay wall. So I didn't back. I Watched all your videos and game plays, it helped me with my final decision not to back. Tax and shipping to UK is also a heavy extra cost. I look forward to seeing you play more zombicide, however. For the record I like zombicide dark side, I enjoy the crazy kit/equipment you can add to the game and characters from various sci movies, like judge dredd. I have backed dead or alive. I am looking forward to the harder abomination play in that one. Have a great day, all gamers!
I had to back Galactus cause I had to search so long (and pay a good amount of money) to get big cthulhu.. wont happen again :) (so yes.. 100% fomo... but it was worth for the big buddy and as fan of the old marvel comics.. will be worth for galactus too)
great vid the one thing that wasn't mentioned was the enjoyment one can get out of painting all the minis that to adds a lot of value to the games if it is something you enjoying doing.
In reality we only need a couple of great games and you would get the most of the price point of them. Yet I still will spend a lot of money on all these games just because I want to experience them all.
Thankfully Im not into Marvel. Equally thankful I have only played zombicide NOTLD and thought the system was meh so I was able to resist any pledges on this one. I do still want to try a full Zombicide game but that will be later. I did put a couple hundred dollar pledge on final girl though.
I don't remember where I stole this formula: ((Price Paid for Game)/((Average Time Per Play)*(Number of Plays)))/(Average Number of Players) Thus my GOAL for price per play, per player, per hour is less than going to a each hour cost of a matinee movie (currently $6.25 in my area or $3.12 per hour for a 2hr movie). So my Marvel Zombie pledge (Undead box + Sentinels Strike + shipping) will be around the following: (($200 cost/((Average Time Per Play = 1hr)*(Number of Plays)))/(Average of 3 Players in my play group), means our group will need to play this 22 times to get under $3.12 per play, per player, per hour. Doable and worth it to me.
I agree its 100% subjective. You can have a person living pay cheque to pay cheque vs a person with a large salary. A person with 200 games vs a person who has 20. You can have a person who keeps his games unplayed forever vs a person who sells unplayed games immediately and returns there monetary value often. A game is worth $600 to you if its worth $600 to you.
I'm probably going to upgrade to the Hungry pledge in the PM. After doing some investigating it seems like here in Canada the retail versions of Zombicide 2nd edition aren't that much cheaper (Expansions are actually more expensive compared to the KS ) although shipping is. As such, it seems like it will be easier to get it all now than scrimp for it later. Since I don't own any Zombicide games at all, if I like (and more importantly, if my son likes it when he's a bit older) it I can stick with this one, if not getting rid of it should be super easy due to all the exclusives :-)
I could actually recommend you just buy any Zombicide base game that you like the theme of. As for my personal opinion, Zombicide and the art and the theme does not go well with children (especially if they are younger than 16).And buying something that your kid may like 5 years from now is a huge risk (probably he would like a PS5 for the same price better than Zombicide).
Experiential was big for me. I really like playing Azul with my 7yo daughter. She thinks it is fun but will argue to play a video game together instead of that is an option. But when I want to whip out Z:Dark Side (or invader, but we are doing DS first), she is immediately up for it and excited. I HOPED she would be interested in MZ when I showed her, but was unsure. She was HYPED and wants to eat people. Add on a really good number of female characters to play as- something she always looks for- and it was easy to pull the trigger on a Hungry pledge. I WANT Galactus, but the added gameplay per cost doesn’t work for me and once I get past the NEAT factor, the Big Boi just seems like a headache to store and deal with. Made me realize that cost aside, I would prefer a large cardboard token for Galactus anyway. So easy out at that level. But you give me a game my kid consistently WANTS to play with me more than other activities and I will spend damn near anything on it.
I don't want to put you on the spot, but introducing a violent game like Zombicide to a 7yo child is something you may have to think about first very very much before you do it. Especially if you are not playing as heroes fighting for the good but actually eat and devour humans. As a grown up you may find the art of the zombie part of the game (Zombicide duhhhh) disturbing. Please think about it before introducing this to your child. I am not saying not to do it, but think first and than act.
To answer your initial question... No board game is ever worth $600, if you don't have that kind of cash to spare. On the other hand, if you do, then I'd imagine many could fall into that category. Lol.
I honestly think this video is mostly for the fence sitters, but excellent pointswere made nonetheless. The only caveat that I would like to add is this: Kickstarter should be a fund-raising platform, first and foremost. Which means, back it with the mind-set that you may NEVER get the pieces and parts, aka, back it because you believe in it! I backed at the $1 level because I was unsure I wanted this (I don't NEED it lol, but come on...), and very unsure at that. I enjoyed Marvel United but that turned into a game I routinely play with my 7 year old as my spouse just isn't THAT into the game, and wanted something a little more complicated. I don't have any Zombiecide or Zombie themed games, and I REALLY love the IP, so this is able to fill a hole in my collection. That said, the price was out my range until recently, as I was able to save up for just about everything I wanted. I'm not getting the Galactus pledge, but it did cross my mind that maybe I should keep saving and buy a PS5 with how much everything costs in the end. Luckily I have a friend with which to decrease shipping, so that helps too.
For me it was easy. I'm still waiting on Massive Darkness 2 bling all-in so that was $360 with shipping and Marvel Zombicide was double that, yeah it was an easy choice. Get this game in the next 2 months or wait for the next 2+ years, also they are shipping the game in 2 waves which definitely makes me know this game is still in development. That's my reasoning. I still keep my dollar pledge for the updates.
The issue with how they run things isn't the amount of stuff, it's that it's only offered once. This should have been 2 campaigns minimum. Everyone should have a chance to play it before having to go all in and missing the opportunity. They fear on fumo by linking something exclusive in every single add on. It's really preying, it's sad. And yes, I did it, so I'm not complaining from that aspect. But, you should get to try the closed TTS mod at least, not just have to watch Jesse. It's sad.
Practicality makes it impossible. Just point to any one company who has put out 50 games this size in 10 years as an example of how CMON should structure their product line to avoid FOMO, and you'll notice those companies dont exist. The trade off for the exclusivity is a pace that puts out great games with great regularity. Noticing this, is how I made peace with CMON's business model. They make more games I love than most anyone else and they've done it in less time than the industry titans that came before them.
Straight up. This is about Marvel Heroes and Villains miniatures! It ain't about the Zombicide game, gameplay, look, or smell. It's about CMON getting with Disney/Marvel and knocking this out of the park! They have the usual suspects like the Avengers, X-Men. But they also went above and beyond by bringing in less mainstream heroes, villains. Moonknight, Multiple Man, Scorpion. So Yeah $600 for a ton of Marvel miniatures is what that dollar amount is for. Can not wait for this to arrive.
i backed the game BEACAUSE of galactus! actually my father wanted it so i thought i could also get the game. I play WH40k, and it is too expensive compared to this, with 600$ you cant even start to play: I actually have DE and i need almost 125 Euros of manuals BEFORE even place a mini on the table. That is insane
If you enjoy something you will spend a lot on it. I have a large collection of board games with an insane amount of expansions. I think Mansions of Madness is the game that I have probably spent the most on - over £600 (or around £1,000 if you include the second edition): I have all the expansions for both editions, all models painted, a carry case for them, and all cards sleeved. When it comes to crowd-funded games I tend to go all-in: if I'm not getting all (or almost all) the extras I tend not to bother and just wait for retail. Though like Alex I tend not to bother with playmats unless they are included in the all-in.
It’s been my xp that getting all the extras is never worth it. I’ve never played with all the KS extras with some games. You could have just backed the base game and played it the same that you would have with all the extras. The amount of time you spend playing with the extras won’t make up the money
"It's worth it when you decide it's worth it"... I feel like that is the hardest thing to justify at least for myself. Even when putting money away for retirement and meeting monthly bills, it feels hard to justify buying board games, especially when people spend their free money on other hobbies. I think it would be a cool video to compare how a gamer and non-gamers spend money in a year to see how gaming can totally be justified when they aren't partaking in/purchasing those other items. I never really thought about it in terms of cost per play, but it really is a great way to evaluate how much you have gotten out of that purchase and justify holding off/or bringing new games in.
If you like movies for example, compare this to cost per hour of a movie in a cinema vs cost per hour of play of Zombicide. I reasonably could not justify the price of Zombicide, especially if I take into account other entertainment offerings for same or in many case lower price point.
I stop to go all in one year ago... Best choice of my life because rarely i will play all the extra content, is just FOMO to have everything
100% true. So much extra stuff in games you never use....and some all ins I turn around and sell because of it.
Yup, I just went in for 1 dollar because I feel the fomo during a campaign. I already don't feel it and think core only will do with maybe X-Men retail.
I am so thankful, that zombicide doesn‘t trigger my „want to have“ reflex - this would be so esxpensive…
So much extra stuff and they dont have enough time to playtest them.
They just rush and moneygrab.
This has to stop from companies.
@@johnpanagos5835 hopefully for a system like Zombicide they have a good base... But true i back some games that even after 2 year (super delay) they are still working on the rulebook...
Great video, I want to add something as a (professional) miniature painter: cost per play/experiental value also increases (for me) when painting the miniatures, and the experience it gives. Apart from that, for "cost per play" you shouldn't look too black and white on actual plays, but also on hours. for example: I played tainted grail in 20 sessions, but for 60 hours total. where, with marvel united with 20 sessions it would be more around 10 hours. with these values in mind, games of 4k euro (painted game) are in that expiriental range
Agreed, with cmon games the miniatures are a big part of it. If you're a miniature painter, this is the only place to get the majority of these heroes in miniature form.
I still have a bunch of Warhammer armies collecting dust - I only recently started playing boardgames.
I started implementing my formula for videogames on boardgames to determine whether they are worth it: I need to get one hour of enjoyment out of each euro I spent on something.
In the case of Marvel Zombies, it comes down to way more than just gameplay. I habe painting experience from Warhammer and am already planning out color schemes, I watch lorevideos of Galactus and other characters I knew less of, I keep on scrolling through the Kickstarter page because of the hype. In this case it's so much more than just gameplay to me, it's the entire package that comes with it that's made me go all in.
Yep, that is a good way to look at it. If you spend a 1000 dollars on a board game, but play it for over 1000 hours in total, then that is a good deal. Many people spend more then they think per hour of entertainment on cheaper things. Like if you spend 50 dollars to take a friend to a zoo for 3 hours vs spending 200 dollars on a game you play with him for 200 hours over the course of several years.
I mentioned this in another video, but I really love how you not only do board game reviews and unboxings, but also discuss board game adjacent topics in depth. FOMO, industry issues, shipping issues, kickstarter practices, state of the hobby, struggles that consumers face, the sort of topics that don't get discussed a bunch in the board game channel sphere.
Agreed. He’s definitely underrated in that regard.
I just couldn’t justify the cost. I didn’t like that they were effectively splitting the game in half, with zombies and heroes. I felt like they were forcing me to spend more to get the full experience and pushing the FOMO. I also got sick of the constant updates filing up my inbox, so I cancelled my base pledge a week before the campaign ended.
Same for me on all points. I have a $1 pledge and wish Ihad canceled ir because of the constant updates.
CMON saw the Pokemon hit copy + paste
I also felt like being pushed too hard. "For 130$ you only get the zombie mode, pay at least 240$! (plus shipping and VAT) And make sure to not wait for retail, you get some of the most iconic heroes only here on KS!"
I'm usually on the All-In side of KS campaigns so effectively this wouldn't have affected me in ANY way but I felt FORCED by their psychological stunts so I didn't back. No, these manipulation strategies were too obvious, I don't want to feel like I fell for the bait and into their trap.
But since I got hyped for a thematic, immersive miniature experience in the MARVEL universe I finally pulled the trigger for Marvel Crisis Protocol, so thank you, CMON! 😀
Me and three friends go to the movies. At 10$ a ticket that's 40$ for 90-120 minutes of an experience on some form of entertainment.
I have some 40$ board games that I've played ten times. The experience of time playing games with family is worth a different price to all.
Just don't spend outside your means, know your limit. If it feels like it's too much, it might just be.
As a former warhammer player I don't flinch when I see such a price I've two models which costed more. But over the years I developed a "what I could get instead" mindset. The game might be great but I could get 10 games for that price which will get played more often and offer a better expierience in my opinion.
Kind of limited point of view. I could have said the same a year ago but I own all the games I want now. It's not like there is an inexhaustible list of titles I would pay to get a chance to try. Maybe you're more of an equal opportunity gamer where you're happy trying anything
I was out on this one. I have enough Zombicide for the next several years. I appreciate all the stuff included in this, but at thensamw.time it feels like a money grab as well. The deciding factor for me was my finances. I'm.just no longer able to drop that kind of cash on a single game that may or may not be great. Oddly, the giant model didn't appeal to me this time. Probably because I'm kind of a Marvel fan but not as into it as many are. When I sat down and thought able what else I could do with $650, it was a no-brainer. For me, the value just isn't there. I hope everyone who does get it enjoys it. It looks like great it could be great fun.
Same. The Marvel IP honestly doesn't do anything for me, especially in a Zombicide context.
💯. It was too expensive for the actual game you are getting
My thoughts exactly
I once decided to pay £350 for all-in game - never again. Nowadays, I am willing to pay £200 for an awesome game, at most. Paying $600 for a game cannot be justified IMHO, it will always be too much compared to amount of gameplay you get. By paying $600 you admit it is fine to get screwed. In case of Marvel Zombies you pay for plastic and Marvel®. The same was with Monster Hunter - people went all-in for a game, which was waaay overpriced just because they loved it - immidiate brain freeze. But I get, that if you live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world then you don't care.
Depends who you are and what you want to do with it, for me it's a hobby opportunity that will last 2-3 years in terms of value from a painting perspective, I also earn enough so the amount of money back needed is negligible, I will also sell another Zombicide to cover the cost and free up space resulting in essentially a zero cost, so essentially for me I'm no worse off financially, I'll get to paint some incredibly creative sculpts and play the game 10-20 times in the next few years. Of course, you could argue that I could have just sold off my board games and gained some wealth, but there is no value in that, as stated in the video the experiences offered and a chance to be creative has more value than a few hundred in my pocket.
Now that said, I did not go all-in on this, but $300 is significant, the point is, for someone somewhere it is entirely justifiable, and for many, it will be a huge overindulgence or regretful decision where people have scrimped and saved on something that is probably a better idea of something to own rather than the actual experience.
My reasoning is that I want to do a DND campaign around Marvel. So for my gamegroup I suppose it's worth it.
@@velorian85 There are companies who 3D print minis and you would get what you want for probably less than $100.
@@Jak0vas I don't know, where are you from, but 90%+ of second-hand board games are being sold in US. So if you are from US, then great, but since I am not, selling a board game is not so easy.
Of course everything depends on the person. If you are willing and can spend that money nobody will stop you.
At $750 you could have single handedly broken a stretch goal on a smaller campaign.
Yep, fair enough.
Don't apologize for all the marvel zombies videos, I've loved them! Looking forward to when you return to the topic!
It will likely be a while before the next one. And the apology isn't for you, or for me, it's for the fact that I know that for every person who's happy to watch another video on the subject, there is someone else who wishes I would move on :)
I am so thankful, that zombicide doesn‘t trigger my „ want to have“ reflexes
Kudos to you! I sadly fell into this trap.
Question: When is a board game worth 600 dollars?
Answer: Never.
Even my Scythe or Everdell stuff is like $300 XD
You must have a low opinion of your own value. Chin up! You're worth a $600 experience at least. ❤️ You're worth a lot more than that in fact.
What an excellent video and topic. I struggle at times when I’m investing in games that I love, thinking “am I going to far? “
This is a great way to look at it. I’ve spent hundreds on Nemesis ie paints, inserts, sleeves, expansions and Bg accessories and yet I don’t feel bad about it. I’ve got 20-30 plays under my belt. Breaking it down this way, justifies spending if you love the experience. Not to mention the culture shock of seeing someone experiencing the game for the first time!
Awesome video man. Thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was an easy pass - too much space, too expensive and a combination of IP and gameplay that would be a miss for the people I play with. Have also started to resent CMON more and more for their exploitation of FOMO. I caved on Marvel United X-Men but I expect that will have been the last CMON game I back.
EASY pass. Also one of their worst ran KS'ers when it comes to stretch goals and just overall value. As soon as they start delivering this KS they will launch a supplemental one just like they did Marvel United. Additionally, IMO CMON gives absolutely terrible value for what they charge.
Well put.
I was all-in on the first one but only got selected add-ons from Xmen United, I've broken the cycle (glances at my all-ins on the shelf for BR, RS and Ankh)
These companies like CMON are just exploiting people with OCD. They don't even need to use Kickstarter to produce their games. The platform was intended for indie developers to fund projects, not successful companies. They just do it because they know they can dangle the carrot in front of obsessive compulsive nerds and quadruple their profits before they've even made the game. It's pretty crappy, really. Yeah, they're making tons of cash but OCD is no joke and they're exploiting it for money.
Short answer: It isn't
Ah but KDM, MTG, Marvel Champions All Packs....sooo many games disagree with you :)
2:55
As someone who's a big KDM fan, has invested a lot in MTG, and even Warhammer 40K Kill Team.
Why do you have to call me out like that? 😅
It wasn't to hurt you, it was to make me feel better about myself :)
I don’t know if you calculate number of players into cost per play because technically if you have 3 or 4 players per game and you want average of $15/player per play since they also get enjoyment then it can drop even more
Part of the experiential factor for me is the artistic quality and design that goes into a game and sometimes how design fits with theme. There are some games that I've bought, such as Rising Sun, with the realization that I might not ever get to play them. If nothing else, their value to me is pretty much the same as a fine art painting or a quality edition of a book is to others. I have a few games in my collection that will stay whether they get played or not.
Even with the price, this game is a dream come true for me as a Marvel fan and a painter. I'm very glad I passed on Marvel United with its chibis.. ;-)
I would like to add that a price for one mini of this quality is ridiculously low.
Agreed on all counts...except passing on Marvel United ;) Love that too.
@@BoardGameCo I'm just not a fan of Marvel United. Good for a quick game with children but not for me. :)
There was a time in my life when $600 meant 2-3 nights out destroying my liver. It was gone in a weekend and I had nothing to show for it. $600 for a board game that I get to enjoy for hundreds of hours and then still has monetary value which I can recoup by selling is a way better deal in my mind.
I know it’s not a one or the other decision, just because I’m no longer an alcoholic doesn’t mean I HAVE to spend that money on other things. But for me it’s a reminder that if it’s making me happy, and if I can afford it, then there are much worse things I could be spending my money and time on.
This is amazing. Also goes to that relative value, but in a way I wasn't expecting.
Hey. You get 100 plus hours of gameplay from this, more power to you. I simply am not getting that from any one game and so for me it was an easy no. I also have all of Zombicide Invader and the 20+ new missions CMON put out the last 2 years and have barely scratched the surface.
Appreciate your insight as always, Alex.
I just can't support this from CMON. And it's not just the cost, but rather not allowing more flexibility in what you can pick and choose, as well as the decision to gate characters like Iron Man behind kickstarter exclusives.
This just seems so wrong to me and is just another example of CMON probably being the worst publisher in terms of preying on FOMO with their kickstarter campaigns. It actually turns me off CMON and i don't really want to support this practice by giving them my money.
Yeah, I thought Kickstarter was for indie projects that couldn't get funding any other way. Now, these very successful game companies are just using it to wring as much money as they can from nerds with OCD. They're exploiting people with genuine mental health issues to make a quick buck, which I find to be pretty scummy.
For me never but I have now done it once for too many bones because that game is a 10/10. Still an illogical spend really. A zombicide game will never rank that high for me. Now that the campaign is over my fomo is already going way down so by the time I can decide what to do with my dollar pledge who knows.
I honestly don't think that any board game is worth $600. I just cannot justify spending that on a single game.
It's more than one game. There are at least 3 modes of play.
@@ScytheNoire let's be honest here, Marvel Zombies is hardly the only board game with multiple modes.
You can try to rationalise your purchase to your heart's content, it is your money after all, but please don't come with this ridiculous argument.
Short answer to me is there is no reason. As I said, this was the one bridge too far moment for me on KS. I also dropped LA Granja. I think 120+ for a Euro needs serious justification for me moving forward. I love bling in my games by enough.
Totally hear, KS is definitely a luxury journey, overpaying is common.
@@BoardGameCo yes, but it wasn't always a luxury journey. My issue is that everything is seemingly right at or just beyond 100 now
Dear Alex: i really want to tell you how much i appreciate these Kind of critical Videos. Personally i decided to pledge for marvel zombicide. But i like the way you reflect about it and it always makes me think about the point: Do i really need the next big Box Kickstarter and the next...
Thank you Herren, appreciate it :)
This is the first time I think I’ve heard your inner voice screaming, “What have I done!!!” My all in limit for this was $350 and once I saw that was achievable I dropped the idea like a hot potato. I will say though I can’t wait to see you unbox it. :)
I am very excited but also going in pretty minimally!
Lol, going in minimally makes the most sense.
All in marvel zombies is a luxury item and like most luxury things it’s value is almost entirely experiential. The best experience per dollar is entirely subjective and varies wildly from person to person. No need for justification. If you have the means to do so responsibly, enjoy the experience.
I passed on Marvel Zombicide. Wasn't confident it would meet my expectations for $600.
Totally reasonable. I'd say you don't have to go all in, but I understand the temptation for all or nothing.
I just asked for a refund on my Chronicles of Drunagor campaign, as the $574 just had a massive $250 added in shipping and taxes. It just made me realise that no game is every worth that much money. The same applies for me to zombiecide. But everyone is different whatever makes you happy!
Have a look at the gamefound comments for CoD .... not a nice place to be.
Keep it simple always... Take the base game and maybe one expansion. Trust me 90% of the time the base game is more than enough.
@@patriziopastore9895 Indeed I have a lot of games and 'mostly' remember this :) Occasionally I get stupid though .... I'm getting better!
@@NeilY1000 same here when I see all the stuff that i took for example Nemesis I'm asking myself when I will play all? Just keep the base game and maybe one expansion if is really giving a boost to the game.
Ya, that's a tough one. But also made worse since people are being asked to pay more than they thought they would.
@@BoardGameCo Indeed, me included :)
$600 for a board game ? We as board gamers are creating a rod for our own back...the message we are sending is this : The market is willing to pay this price and then some.
Absolutely yes. While most board games are still in the $50ish range, there's absolutely a market for these crazy prices and games.
Exactly! Remember when the beautiful 3rd edition of Space Hulk hit in 2009 for $100 and people gasped? From that point on the madness which was miniature war gaming bloat took over traditional board games. The $100+ cap was broken for a box of paper and plastic and all bets were off. Kickstarter took the door which was opened and blew it off the hinges like going from lottery tickets to a Vegas casino! Lots and lots of shiny stuff, special items “thrown in” for the more people buy. Preying on the completionists’ weaknesses they made a pocket draining experience where only a small percentage of what is made and sold ever really gets used even once.
I like the $15 per play concept for just me. Having my gaming group come over and all play ZBP together (2 people having a blast for 2+ hours) felt more like a $200 night to me, because we would have spent similar to see a movie together. Even more for a concert
This was my first Cmon/Zombicide Kickstarter. And as for now, my only one. And it was fun. The character reveals, the livestreams, making a conspiracy theory about Mike's mug. But definitely something I really only want to do once. And I didnt even get Galactus. And I only got the Artist pack to push the final stretch goal. But even if I dont play with all of it. I still wanted it as my Marvel Zombies collection.
One of the statements in this video I agree with; if you're going to throw any board game out for that price tag, then you better also throw out LCGs, miniature skirmish games (a la Warhammer 40k), etc. One person even mentioned MCP? Yeah, I'm sure the cost per miniature there is just great!
Now I'm not defending MZ in particular, but to put it in perspective:
I used to play a lot of Warhammer 40k, Warhammer Fantasy, Fallout Wasteland Warfare, Runewars, and Flames of War. It feels a bit crazy to say this out loud, but 600 $ is nothing! (ok obviously, 600 $ is not nothing, but it's all relative!)
Now that being said, I DO think that the best games are almost always the cheapest ones that can be got at retail:
1) Mage Knight Ultimate Edition is like, 100 $. It's awesome. Tons of quality gameplay.
2) Pandemic Legacy Season 1, 63 $ on the miniature market, probably the most immersive campaign I've ever played in a board game.
3) Spirit Island, about 90$? Fantastic asymmetric cooperative gameplay.
4) Gloomhaven can be gotten for under 100 $ these days, I think; it's at #1 on BGG for good reason, it doesn't suck.
5) Mansions of Madness 2nd ed, I think can also be gotten for under 100 $ these days. I personally hate Cthulhu, I think it's overdone, and the theme actively works against my enjoyment, and I STILL like this game.
4/5 of those games don't even have any KSE!
So why spend 600 $ on a single board game?
A rough analogy I can think of is PC gaming. You don't NEED the newest graphics card. Your 80 % FPS, slightly dialed back graphics, or 1440p vs 4k whatever is fine.
But if you love the heck of out computer games, and you've budgeted your disposable income appropriately, and you really WANT that newest graphics card... then you do you!
And besides. That 600 $ Marvel Zombies game will probably hold its value just fine, years down the road. It may even end up being worth more! That 700 $ GPU, er... will not.
It wasn't easy to pass on because the minis are beautiful. But I'm tired of being over charged on shipping costs. This started during Hate and has gotten increasingly worse. I've passed on alot of their games and will continue to do so because of this issue.
Ehhh but out of the reasons the increase in shipping costs is actually justifiable. We can just see this with container prices, or even if you wanted to ship something via fedex.
Did you not read the since Hate part?
Good analysis. An important point is that everyone's criteria are different, are weighted differently, and they are in different circumstances (e.g. realistic number of plays expected) which can heavily influence the outcome. So just because something makes sense (or doesn't) for someone else does not mean it makes sense (or doesn't) for you. The problem that can arise is when you let the hype and justification of others override your own personal analysis based on your specific circumstances.
In any case, appreciate the discussion. It's another example of your thoughtful and logical approach to a subject that is often characterized by emotional and vocal extremes. Thanks!
When is a game too expensive? The moment you can't afford it.
Way better analysis than most people in the comments 😅
I went all in for The Witcher, over $500 CAD, and I still can't believe I spent that much for a board game (and expansions of course). That was 2 full year's budget for games in one single purchase. I can't buy a game until 2023.
There’s people that spend small fortunes on collecting figurines that you can’t play with, they’re just for display, which board gamer would think that’s worth it?
100%....and Rolex's, collecting luxury cars...there's always someone worse.
@@BoardGameCo i really appreciate your discussions on value and your tutorials on reselling and such, I feel like that’s missing from a lot of board game channels
I backed both Stormsunder and Chronicles of Drunagor + expansions+ add-ons for both. I don’t care spending money on games i know i will like and has a lot of depth in the gameplay. For Marvel Zombies i find the game too light to spend that much money. I know i will get tired quickly of that game.
Totally reasonable on all counts.
Haha reverse reason for why I didn't back those two games. I haven't been able to even make it through Gloomhaven all the way and still want to play Middara so I can't buy more big Rpg games lol
While I backed both Stormsunder and Chronicles of Drunagor. Chronicles of Drunagor is really light as well, even though it has a compelling story. I didn't back Marvel Zombies because of the theme, but if it was a Marvel theme game against just Villains I probably would have spend that 600$ for the All-IN.
@@CheddahSlammer I agree but you have to admit, with the apocalyspe expansion drunagor is a step further in complexity when comparing to Zombicide..
@@justicebolt5293 Yeah I do admit that. Funny thing is I got Chronicles because it was lighter, because my game group was getting tired of these more complicated games.
I think the general rule here is what your finances are and acceptance that board games are an expensive hobby, BUT if it's a rewarding one then you can't put a price tag on it. CMON games are also very easy flips from KS, so if your mind changes then you're usually in the black for the entire ordeal. I've turned on a dime with games that I once thought would be excellent, only for reviews to shed light on finer details and then dumped them on eBay for someone else. As long as you're stable in life and able to make informed decisions, then there's no justification required.
I am not interested in Zombicide, just not for me, but for me I see games as fun and agree with you that the game is worth it when you decide it is. I just went all in with Tanares RPG/Boardgame bundle (probably around 750 after all is said and done) because I have friends that play boardgames and D&D weekly and will provide a weekly play for about the next 2-1/2+ years. Along with the art and lore background I am invested in. But for others it definitely wouldn't be.
Thanks for a great video Alex!
Love the $15 per play concept - I'm adapting it to a tenner a play in Sterling. Suddenly I feel a lot better about the attic (I might add in some insulation value as well . . . .)
Another big value point for me is painting. The enjoyment of painting not to mention the lessons I learn that help me improve are another value point to consider. Plus I can use the minis for decoration. I look forward to Galactus especially since I finally got an airbrush this holiday.
Another aspect I like is how I can make my own stories with this and MU. I can make a battle against The Avengers and Hydra and if I lose I can go ok Hydra rules the world now I will come up with my own campaign to overthrow Hydra
I have multiple games that cost $400 and more, now most of those were over time (which I do wish was the case with Kickstarters). For me having a small collection (of games) with a lot of expansions/variability is better then having 100s of games.Now if you buy/sell games regularly (shipping on all-ins is problematic), need to use credit cards (going in debt over a luxury item isn’t wise) or you want quantity of different games over quantity of the same game then it’s best if you don’t go for all-ins. I’d be worried if all games were getting as pricey as most miniature games but there are plenty of games still coming out for under $100.
Great analysis (as someone who also went All-In on Marvel Zombies). :-)
So I bought zombicide season 1, the original for 80€ back in the day.
Me and a friend played it around 50 times. And we will play it this week too.
Marvel zombicide for 600 $?
Objectively the value of any game should be its mechanics and fun factor. Divided by time it takes to play .
So the shorter it takes to play the game and the more fun it is, the greater the value.
King of Average argued that many of his games aren't worth anything really as they don't get played.
Agreed completely....for me Zomibicide is a game that gets played.
Marvel Champions is sitting right now at almost $650 for all the gameplay content
Yep, and it's a great game :)
@@BoardGameCo indeed 😊
I believe you said it would be the last video on Marvel Zombies on your previous video....but hey I am still watching so.
Thanks for the advice...I am holding my self not to fall into FOMO and back the Galactus pledge in the pledge manager. Gave me a lot to think about!
Galactus makes no sense....I can only justify it as a content creator
@@BoardGameCo Thanks...I think you helped me make my decision! Specially in your video...hehe.
Easy one for me, big box of minis is an automatic no regardless of the price.
Your life will be cheaper for it :)
Just think if every backer bought galactus (which didn’t happen) that means there is at most 28 000 plus change in all of existence
That’s nothing it will hold it’s value if not increase when some people get buyers remorse for not getting it
I certainly wanted to go all in on this but I just couldn't afford the price point. Made worse by another Kickstarter I was excited for running at the same time
Also, could you do that video about Marvel United that you talked about?
It isn't $600 though as it's more like $750 - $800+ including shipping and for my country its + 20% VAT so your really nearly up at the $1000 mark. I like Zombicide it's a solid if shallow game but for me adding additional characters only matters if they play very differently. So overall for myself personally it would have been a poor choice as lots of different characters isn't content to me unless they play very differently. Still can understand those who really just want a specific favourite character.
Ultimately CMON can charge what they like and use whatever manipulative marketing approaches they see fit to maximise profits. We do have the choice of Retail and I'd suspect for many this it's more than enough.
It's a moot point now but I think they possibly left a great deal of money on the table.
I simply don’t make enough money for a 600 dollar board game to ever be worth it. Cost per play is definitely a valid point as my copy of Gloomhaven has made itself well worth it over the years. But there’s a disparity between Marvel Zombies and other projects. Yes, you could end up playing Marvel Zombies a ton, but there are other games which are far less expensive and promise more gameplay content. Aeon Trespass offered 300 hours of unique gameplay content at the all-in pledge, and that pledge was less than half the price of Marvel Zombies. In theory, you’d have to play Marvel Zombies 200 times to get to 300 hours and then you’d have to play it 200 more times to make it the same cost per play as Aeon Trespass. On top of that, I’m far more likely to play a campaign board game for a huge amount of hours to see it through to the end. Marvel Zombies has scenarios, but variability is what keeps people playing. Are people really going to have 600 hours worth of variability? No way. There’s definitely been far better deals out there.
My answer would be is “Never” ;D
With my limited budget, going all-in on something this expensive is just not worth it when the alternative would mean I could buy a fair number of other amazing games like Mind MGMT, Ark Nova, Radlands etc. for the same overall cost.
I think the IP is the top one or two reasons people go "all in". I went all in on Masters of the Universe because it's been one of my top three favorite IPs and I've waited over 30 years for someone to put something decent on my table top. It could've been an RPG or deck builder and I would've been all in.
Basically I’m doing that cost per play as well. Usually I compare it to ‚going to the cinema.‘ Of course, you can also take the resale value into account.
BUT: This calculation misses one important aspect. Would I have had the same amount of fun with the 120€ pledge? With the 240€ pledge? And honestly the answer often is ‚yes.‘
Often the base game would have been the best value in terms of ‚cost per play.‘ By far!
But yeah… I’m also often all in for the games that I think I’m going to love.
Yep, that goes to the relative value, that often comes into any discussion.
Really fascinating video. I'm having to be more discerning with kickstarters as my partner and I recently bought a house and have less spare money, space is limited and I'm getting stick for not playing the games I've got!
Which app do you use / recommend to record your plays? I think I should be doing that...
Thanks!
Bottom line: If you can afford it + the game brings you joy = go ahead and spend😊. For me, I'm running out of space in my condo for board games so I'm becoming more selective on kickstarter pledges and I'll only back what I think my gaming group will enjoy.
This is the most pleasant and sophisticated splurge self rationalization I’ve ever heard ha.
Lol thanks :)
I love the type of videos where Alex talks about topics outside of game mechanics, especially where he dicusses Kickstarter backs and how to ne reasonable with your money and time. However, I love the videos even more where Alex throws all his valuable advice out of the window and does the complete opposite, because his FOMO kicked in.
This is no criticism by the way. As a board game content creator he might make back a bit of the money and I am already excited for the Marvel Zombies unboxing and rambeling.
Alex I loved the video and agreed with everything you said… but got distracted by the cup holders where the grain wasn’t lined up 🤯 It must be the OCD in me but please fix it 😂 I had to just have the sound on and couldn’t watch the video. 😅 Having said that really love the content.
So? Looking back now. Was it worth it?
To me yes :)
I have, over time, paid about $600 on Too Many Bones. I have played...50? Hours so far over the last couple of years and I fee like I need to put more time into it to feel like it's worth it to me, but I am confident that I will continue to play and get my money's worth.
But I also have Gaia Project for $90 that I have put about that many hours into as well...so. yeah.
I think ~$300-400 is the absolute most I would ever pay in one chunk for a board game. I've done it a couple of times, and I'm not sure they're worth it yet. We'll see.
Cost per hour or cost per play helps me reconcile the cost of a game. If you play it, it ends up worth it compared to the expense of other entertainment options. Could easily drop $300 on dinner, drinks and gambling in one night. A game, or boxes of games, will get played for 3 or so hours, perhaps 10-20 times in a year.
I've spent $600 on Too many bones all in (maybe more) no regrets. I'm all in on the Witcher. I'm not scratching for the cash to invest in new games - however I more or less decide to buy games at a certian pace. Sometimes I just ignore cool new games because I want new games to be meaningful - too many too fast causes them to feel less valuable.
Initially I thought the hero core box being in the $240 was just regular cmon fomo. Then at the end when there are almost double the number of hero stretch goals vs zombie stretch goals it became sickenly clear why they put the box in the $240 pledge.
I am getting into the hobby of board games as it's my passion, and your videos always give me new insights, considerations, and cautions. I got the Galactus pledge, leaning to getting two expansions. $600 is a lot of money, but as you said, I made a choice that I accept for enjoyment/experience value and love of Xmen IP. Cmon games are a safe bet I enjoy and will hold its value. So, like you, I am for backing Marvel zombies, and I can't wait to play it.
I really wanted to get this but I have over 100 board games now and to think I could spend $600 on each of those would be insane. As I get older the ability to play games is dropping a lot , and even more so with covid. I just can't justify spending so much and not getting enough plays in. I can see where this could be "worth it" for some but let's be honest, half of the people all in on this will never scratch the surface of the content. Something like Yugioh or MTG is a lifestyle and you will spend 100s of hours playing it. A board game competes with every other board game on the shelf.
Loving the marvel zombicide videos! Great video
well... i did what you said: "buy the core plus the sentinels", as my first zombicide acquisition, i feel i will be ok with the purchase, and it will be a very, very nice add-on to marvel champions
The infamous last words from the civilization of plastic: "It was worth it!"
It isn't, now to watch the video
@Alex, agreed on all points. I'd add in addition, if you like to paint minis thats another value added to these miniatures board games. As a suggestion, use a random name picker app/ draw name out of a bag to select your characters to play your zombicide games going forward to guarantee you have experienced all content.
true about the painting, but then again a decision for me not to back was the dread of my existing painting backlog (with more KS still to be delivered), and I've got a 3d resin printer so its hard for me to justify buying a game just to have something to paint. In fact I bought my printer to stop me going all-in on games like these.
This is the one and only reason I bought Massive Darkness 2. I had no light dungeon crawl, but it was more to have the minis that looked really good for D&D at a relatively cheap per mini cost.
Thank you Alex for this well thought out video. I enjoyed your point of view about backing expensive games.
Thank you for a balanced view.
I was on the fence about backing all way through the kick starter.
I didn't want to play zombie heroes, but the hero part of game was locked behind core pay wall. So I didn't back.
I Watched all your videos and game plays, it helped me with my final decision not to back. Tax and shipping to UK is also a heavy extra cost.
I look forward to seeing you play more zombicide, however.
For the record I like zombicide dark side, I enjoy the crazy kit/equipment you can add to the game and characters from various sci movies, like judge dredd.
I have backed dead or alive.
I am looking forward to the harder abomination play in that one.
Have a great day, all gamers!
I had to back Galactus cause I had to search so long (and pay a good amount of money) to get big cthulhu.. wont happen again :) (so yes.. 100% fomo... but it was worth for the big buddy and as fan of the old marvel comics.. will be worth for galactus too)
great vid the one thing that wasn't mentioned was the enjoyment one can get out of painting all the minis that to adds a lot of value to the games if it is something you enjoying doing.
Absolutely fair....I do know how to paint and plan on doing so....but don't have the time for it right now :)
In reality we only need a couple of great games and you would get the most of the price point of them. Yet I still will spend a lot of money on all these games just because I want to experience them all.
Thankfully Im not into Marvel. Equally thankful I have only played zombicide NOTLD and thought the system was meh so I was able to resist any pledges on this one. I do still want to try a full Zombicide game but that will be later.
I did put a couple hundred dollar pledge on final girl though.
I don't remember where I stole this formula: ((Price Paid for Game)/((Average Time Per Play)*(Number of Plays)))/(Average Number of Players)
Thus my GOAL for price per play, per player, per hour is less than going to a each hour cost of a matinee movie (currently $6.25 in my area or $3.12 per hour for a 2hr movie).
So my Marvel Zombie pledge (Undead box + Sentinels Strike + shipping) will be around the following:
(($200 cost/((Average Time Per Play = 1hr)*(Number of Plays)))/(Average of 3 Players in my play group), means our group will need to play this 22 times to get under $3.12 per play, per player, per hour.
Doable and worth it to me.
The more you talk about how unnecessary Galactus is the more I want to grab him. Have no idea how.
To me at least, the answer is a definite NO. There's no way that I can justify $750+ for a board game, let alone one w/ no story/depth.
Still waiting for Hour of Need. I've come to the point of only buying games now that are currently available.
I agree its 100% subjective. You can have a person living pay cheque to pay cheque vs a person with a large salary. A person with 200 games vs a person who has 20. You can have a person who keeps his games unplayed forever vs a person who sells unplayed games immediately and returns there monetary value often. A game is worth $600 to you if its worth $600 to you.
I'm probably going to upgrade to the Hungry pledge in the PM. After doing some investigating it seems like here in Canada the retail versions of Zombicide 2nd edition aren't that much cheaper (Expansions are actually more expensive compared to the KS ) although shipping is. As such, it seems like it will be easier to get it all now than scrimp for it later.
Since I don't own any Zombicide games at all, if I like (and more importantly, if my son likes it when he's a bit older) it I can stick with this one, if not getting rid of it should be super easy due to all the exclusives :-)
I could actually recommend you just buy any Zombicide base game that you like the theme of.
As for my personal opinion, Zombicide and the art and the theme does not go well with children (especially if they are younger than 16).And buying something that your kid may like 5 years from now is a huge risk (probably he would like a PS5 for the same price better than Zombicide).
Experiential was big for me. I really like playing Azul with my 7yo daughter. She thinks it is fun but will argue to play a video game together instead of that is an option. But when I want to whip out Z:Dark Side (or invader, but we are doing DS first), she is immediately up for it and excited. I HOPED she would be interested in MZ when I showed her, but was unsure. She was HYPED and wants to eat people. Add on a really good number of female characters to play as- something she always looks for- and it was easy to pull the trigger on a Hungry pledge.
I WANT Galactus, but the added gameplay per cost doesn’t work for me and once I get past the NEAT factor, the Big Boi just seems like a headache to store and deal with. Made me realize that cost aside, I would prefer a large cardboard token for Galactus anyway. So easy out at that level.
But you give me a game my kid consistently WANTS to play with me more than other activities and I will spend damn near anything on it.
I don't want to put you on the spot, but introducing a violent game like Zombicide to a 7yo child is something you may have to think about first very very much before you do it. Especially if you are not playing as heroes fighting for the good but actually eat and devour humans.
As a grown up you may find the art of the zombie part of the game (Zombicide duhhhh) disturbing.
Please think about it before introducing this to your child. I am not saying not to do it, but think first and than act.
To answer your initial question... No board game is ever worth $600, if you don't have that kind of cash to spare. On the other hand, if you do, then I'd imagine many could fall into that category. Lol.
I'm sure I've spent 700 bucks* on a game and it's expansions OVER TIME, but not in one go.
*: I actually think the most might be 400.
I honestly think this video is mostly for the fence sitters, but excellent pointswere made nonetheless. The only caveat that I would like to add is this: Kickstarter should be a fund-raising platform, first and foremost. Which means, back it with the mind-set that you may NEVER get the pieces and parts, aka, back it because you believe in it!
I backed at the $1 level because I was unsure I wanted this (I don't NEED it lol, but come on...), and very unsure at that. I enjoyed Marvel United but that turned into a game I routinely play with my 7 year old as my spouse just isn't THAT into the game, and wanted something a little more complicated. I don't have any Zombiecide or Zombie themed games, and I REALLY love the IP, so this is able to fill a hole in my collection. That said, the price was out my range until recently, as I was able to save up for just about everything I wanted. I'm not getting the Galactus pledge, but it did cross my mind that maybe I should keep saving and buy a PS5 with how much everything costs in the end. Luckily I have a friend with which to decrease shipping, so that helps too.
For me it was easy. I'm still waiting on Massive Darkness 2 bling all-in so that was $360 with shipping and Marvel Zombicide was double that, yeah it was an easy choice.
Get this game in the next 2 months or wait for the next 2+ years, also they are shipping the game in 2 waves which definitely makes me know this game is still in development. That's my reasoning.
I still keep my dollar pledge for the updates.
At least Massive Darkness is moving. Hour of Need is in US warehouses and they STILL aren't moving it! I BACKED HOUR OF NEED IN 2019!
The issue with how they run things isn't the amount of stuff, it's that it's only offered once. This should have been 2 campaigns minimum. Everyone should have a chance to play it before having to go all in and missing the opportunity. They fear on fumo by linking something exclusive in every single add on. It's really preying, it's sad. And yes, I did it, so I'm not complaining from that aspect. But, you should get to try the closed TTS mod at least, not just have to watch Jesse. It's sad.
Practicality makes it impossible. Just point to any one company who has put out 50 games this size in 10 years as an example of how CMON should structure their product line to avoid FOMO, and you'll notice those companies dont exist. The trade off for the exclusivity is a pace that puts out great games with great regularity. Noticing this, is how I made peace with CMON's business model. They make more games I love than most anyone else and they've done it in less time than the industry titans that came before them.
Straight up. This is about Marvel Heroes and Villains miniatures! It ain't about the Zombicide game, gameplay, look, or smell. It's about CMON getting with Disney/Marvel and knocking this out of the park! They have the usual suspects like the Avengers, X-Men. But they also went above and beyond by bringing in less mainstream heroes, villains. Moonknight, Multiple Man, Scorpion. So Yeah $600 for a ton of Marvel miniatures is what that dollar amount is for. Can not wait for this to arrive.
i backed the game BEACAUSE of galactus! actually my father wanted it so i thought i could also get the game. I play WH40k, and it is too expensive compared to this, with 600$ you cant even start to play: I actually have DE and i need almost 125 Euros of manuals BEFORE even place a mini on the table. That is insane
This. I think of this everytime People in the board game space complain it's too expensive
If you enjoy something you will spend a lot on it. I have a large collection of board games with an insane amount of expansions. I think Mansions of Madness is the game that I have probably spent the most on - over £600 (or around £1,000 if you include the second edition): I have all the expansions for both editions, all models painted, a carry case for them, and all cards sleeved.
When it comes to crowd-funded games I tend to go all-in: if I'm not getting all (or almost all) the extras I tend not to bother and just wait for retail. Though like Alex I tend not to bother with playmats unless they are included in the all-in.
It’s been my xp that getting all the extras is never worth it. I’ve never played with all the KS extras with some games. You could have just backed the base game and played it the same that you would have with all the extras. The amount of time you spend playing with the extras won’t make up the money
"It's worth it when you decide it's worth it"... I feel like that is the hardest thing to justify at least for myself. Even when putting money away for retirement and meeting monthly bills, it feels hard to justify buying board games, especially when people spend their free money on other hobbies. I think it would be a cool video to compare how a gamer and non-gamers spend money in a year to see how gaming can totally be justified when they aren't partaking in/purchasing those other items. I never really thought about it in terms of cost per play, but it really is a great way to evaluate how much you have gotten out of that purchase and justify holding off/or bringing new games in.
If you like movies for example, compare this to cost per hour of a movie in a cinema vs cost per hour of play of Zombicide.
I reasonably could not justify the price of Zombicide, especially if I take into account other entertainment offerings for same or in many case lower price point.
Wellllll... I'm about to sell a single Magic the Gathering card for $600. 🙃