Feeling Cheated By CMON? What You Can Do About It
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ส.ค. 2024
- BoardGameCo Patreon - / boardgameco
CMON Is Evil - • CMON is EVIL!
Why I Don't Care About The CMON Drama - • Why I don't care about...
Hey look, we have drama around a CMON campaign.
Another day, another drama. Marvel Zombies has some of the most expensive shipping we've seen in a kickstarter campaign. And people aren't happy.
TimeStamps:
0:00:00 - Introduction
0:00:25 - I've Always Had An Interesting Relationship With CMON
0:01:15 - What This Video Will Cover
0:01:42 - What's The Actual Situation Right Now?
0:02:10 - Shipping Is Bonkers
0:03:30 - 2 Pages Of Legal Contracts
0:04:50 - Shipping Should Be Expensive
0:07:50 - The 3 Things That Bother Me
0:09:00 - Shipping Calculator & Accuracy
0:11:45 - It's Complicated
0:12:20 - Other Shipping Dramas Recently
0:15:22 - What Does This Mean For CMON & Crowdfunding
0:20:50 - What Can You Do Now?
0:26:05 - Extra Hydra Troops Available To Buy
0:26:35 - Wrapping Up
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I will be backing things at a dollar level from now on. As someone that lives in Australia you can imagine how much more the shipping here can end up.
Agreed. I live in Uruguay and for example, for the all in pledge of Ankh I paid between shipping and local taxes around 700 USD above the all in pledge value. If you want to play the game, you should know first the rules. Should I do it again? No. Maybe next time (after Zombicide and Massive Darkness 2 arrives, as I have also purchased them)I'll purchase the game with an US adress and travel to US to obtain it.
@@diegoorrego5898 Even then you may have to pay Import taxes if the value of the imported thing exceeds a certain value.
Yeah. I’m US and I still wait for a PM to put any money in to something. Shipping has been crazy for a while now and I want to know my total cost before I commit. Shipping has to be part of that decision these days, not just an afterthought. I imagine it’s way more important to factor in in other regions.
CMON will never get my money until I see the actual shipping in the pledge manager. So, yeah, $1 pledges from now on.
Yeah, I'm in New Zealand, and with shipping the all in pledge will cost me NZ$2,000. I know it's a lot of content, but that's insane. $1 pledges for me from now on.
I am really starting to avoid games with a ton of plastic. Beyond the ridiculous costs of shipping and the inflated cost of the game, I am struggling with shelf space and could probably spend the rest of my life painting minis. Glad I skipped this one.
Yep, we keep getting more and more reasons to skip on these.
Yeah, once you have enough plastic to paint you don't need more so these types of games go way down in value. I don't understand anyone who doesn't want the minis to paint buying this...
@@lucky6666 I don't paint anything. I actually prefer the natural state and uniformity of the colored plastic. Besides that, I get these types of games because I enjoy the emersive nature of miniature games. I'm happy for all the painters out there excited for the Marvel IP. But I'm just in it to play it.
@@dougcerulli8826 You should give painting a try it's very soothing and when you manage to make it look ok it will fill you with pride to play with them
This is the reason why I prefer standees over minis. Standees can look really good, just look Uprising. Also Eldritch Horror looks great too with standees.
Stopped backing CF campaigns years ago. I am able to buy games after they have actually been finished and can cherry pick the best of the bunch rather than roll the dice only to be disappointed in so many released in a pre alpha state. I may pay more for individual games, or not depending on how patient I am on the secondary market, but it saves me in the long run in not wasting my time on shovelware products that I am not happy with playing. The ever increasing big box prices cannot continue to go up forever, there is a bubble here that is going to burst.
@@zenster1097 crowdfunding
@@zenster1097 'crowd funded' as there is no longer just one one the block anymore
They basically did this for Ankh too, the additional exclusive box doubled the shipping estimate. I paid 70$ can for it, which was ridiculous and double any game I've ever backed. Ankh was my last CMON at that point.
Yep, there's nothing new here, it's more of the same
Perhaps I'm the crazy one here, but I have never paid anything close to $140 to ship anything. ANYTHING. Sofas, refrigerators, washing machines. Why do you stand for it?
I can move house for less than the all-in pledge shipping.
Dang, that was really good. Like a great podcast.
I’m hooked till part 2!!
You like coffee as much as I do. Enjoying a cup right now watching you ramble... which I also love! I'm in the third camp- no horse in this race, I just watch all your videos. I also really respect how you do these in one long take. Thanks Alex, you are awesome!
Thanks Scott :) Much appreciated :)
I have to say that the point on "just get another core box" is ridiculous. Set aside that the $130 should also cover the SG (although we know that it is not just coming from those funds, but distributed across many factors). Backers we should not be "punished" in a about 50% cost of a game in shipping for supporting the company or face the two other options of either wait a year (assuming normal KS delays) after it gets to retail to get to play this OR buy the game twice if you want to play it in a timely manner.
I am not saying that shipping should be free for the single box, but having this price is just a joke, also all of their shipping prices are extremely front loaded. I can add 7-10 Galactus to my cart and I will pay for those 7-10 the same as I will pay for ALL-IN pledge. So while I understand that this gigantic plastic is heavy and expensive, their calculation is not based on volume of weight as much as on is this your first galactus? OK $70, is this your 2-9th one ok $20 ... this is illogical to me
390 bucks shipping from China to South East Asia for me… the math just doesn’t add up…
Ya I'm confused by the way it's more expensive there....
my understanding is bad... based on what I read from Hanamikoji KS, who explained why US gets used to lower prices. is that your product will get shipped from China to US first. then later shipped to SE Asia. That's why we suffer higher costs always. US tends to get the 2nd best shipping costs after China / HK / Macau.
I didn't back anything on KickStarter in two years because I feared the shipping price.
That's reasonable. Money saved.
I'm so glad I watched this --- I didn't realize if you backed at the dollar level you could change it later. There's so many of these kickstarters that I'm honestly not inherently excited about and I don't think I should ever have to talk myself into spending money. At the dollar level, it at least gives me a few months to mull it over and/or if life changes in the time since the kickstarter closes...
I watched the video just to watch because I follow you. Good too learn regardless for any future Kickstarter projects I may back. this was the first year I've ever done so. I hope the ones I did back don't end up with crazy surprises like this.
Alex, Thank you so much for the video.
I have owned small companies shipping from US to international and from China to international. I also have experience with assisting to run Kickstarter campaigns.
I am moving to New Zealand and renting a container (US to Asia twice and now the prices are double after Covid).For my Marvel Zombies US800 game content I am getting I am paying US520 for shipping.
Yes, shipping costs is high, but I buy online daily and internationally enough to know that these are probably still lower than the actual costs. So yes, it is possible CMON is actually losing money on shipping; which is not uncommon for crowdfunding campaigns to factor this into their total costs.
I am fortunate enough to justify all these costs for this game, but I absolutely feel terrible for backers that are slapped with double or even triple CMON estimates. The disturbing feeling of CMON (who has run 50 campaigns) either did not do their due diligence on shipping estimates OR worse, intentionally lowering the estimates to lure people into backing their project in the first place. Double or triple costs for shipping in a 2 month period just did not happen in the real World. It just leaves a bad taste with bad business ethics and practice.
Yep, 100% across the board.
Hi Oliver, as someone who live in NZ and plan to drop the campaign, can I play the marvel zombie with you?
Oh man! Definitely!
I need to find a gaming group in NZ!
Thanks Alex for creating this video and providing some good advice. I actually filled out the refund form but after watching your video and reviewing the stretch goals again. I decided to downgrade to the undead pledge and get a few expansions instead. Luckily the single shipping came to $62. The way I viewed it, for $62 you'd get around 74 figures/content isn't a bad deal.
After this I won't back another CMON campaign since I do feel that they dropped the ball and they won't learn unless backers speak with their wallets.
Again great video and keep up the great work.
Thanks Kyle. And ya, I'm a huge fan of voting with your wallet.
I don't get it : why is it interesting to buy the $20 pack of 14 extra hydra troops, when you can get a second duplicate add-on for an additional $30 and get, in addition to those same extra 14 hydra troops, a duplicate of everything else in the box + the bonus 2 exclusive kickstarter heroes and zombies?
Did I miss something regarding this $20 pack being way overvalued?
Alex, I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on the extra hydra troops. How are you planning to use yours? Will they have an in-game use if they aren't coming with any cards?
It was painful for sure--it's even more expensive in California. I opted to go for single wave shipping because I have enough games to play between now and its arrival, but I do hope that CMON and other companies will present even more conservative estimates for shipping in the future.
Huge companies using kickstarter as a preorder system instead of a regular storefront are doing so only as a way to put the cost of doing business entirely on the customer. I dont know a lot about US laws but it seems the fairly weak consumer laws dont do much to hold them in check
In a nutshell. Us screws the customer.
You said shipping prices are increasing, but that hasn’t been my experience this year. I’ve noticed a slow decline in shipping costs. And since the shipping for this is months (if not years) out, it undoubtedly will get even cheaper as freight costs drop and fuel prices stabilize.
Do you mean shipping personally or freight shipping?
Prices for freight container shipping have dropped 12% since the campaign and are trending down and that’s a fact when you look at the world container index and the Chinese container index tracking which track these prices.
@@fubarbox Exactly, I've also read an article about this. If the shipping prices get to normal in times Marvel Zombies ship, what will CMON do, I wonder.. probably nothing, just will get rich.. :-D
Container prices may have dropped but realistically there would be probably 2 big or 3 medium size boxes in total if you pledged for everything? Galactus alone would likely come in a separate box? That's a fair amount of total volume per pledge. My annoyance right now is with the sheer volume of some of what I get and the fact that there is a lot of empty space in the boxes. Marvel United X-men as well as the first Marvel United expansion boxes are mostly the insert. I realize there is a lot of efficiency in having similar dimensions on boxes but I would take stuff in a bag if it could be shipped safely to avoid all the boxes. I thought I had read somewhere that someone said that it is only $20 per expansion box if you divide it out but paying $20 to ship something that will get condensed and tossed seems a bit of a waste.
@@danielkaiser7245 Fact is they are charging me $69 for 1 wave and $118 for 2 wave for the base pledge only to Oregon...that is 2 boxes. That is overcharging while prices have done nothing but trend down since their campaign. Remember they do not pay retail shipping rates and they get discounts on shipping. It is sad when I can get the game cheaper (by about $60 with 2 wave shipping) from one of their retailr esell partners than I can by closing my PM. They charge retailers less than they charge us for shipping as well as the games at a cheaper price so retail can mark it up. They still make money by doing this. That is the sad reason why I can get my pledge for cheaper somewhere else. They are overcharging backers.
The video we backers didn't want, but the video we needed. Thanks for this.
Appreciate it
P.S. love you and thank you for the video...as always 🙂 ❤
Thanks :)
Thank you Alex for the video. I have back three CMON games now and it always hurts seeing the shipping price in the pledgemanager, especially the Marvel Zombiecide. For larger campaigns (not just CMON), I think i will invest a dollar unless I am 100% sure this is what I want.
Currently looking at a total payment of over £1000 not sure if I can justify it no matter how much I love the game..
Yep, I understand. Drop down to a core pledge and sell the rest.
It boils down to can you afford it and do you really love marvel that much to put down the deposit equal to that of a on a car ? Only you can make that decision.
Were you referring to the recent Hanamikoji/Geisha's Road KS? I almost backed that, now I'm glad I didn't! Same with Marvel Zombies, it turns out... I was on the fence through the whole campaign which I decided meant that I didn't need it. I would've been quite displeased with the additional shipping costs.
Does anyone know if I do not enter anything in the pledge manager, would CMON not be able to take my money from the pledge? Doubtful I can get the refund since CMON is notorious for not replying to emails.
Hey Alex, thanks for covering it on your channel and giving your insight on the situation. To me it's not just about the question if the game is worth it to me, but do I want a high discrepancy of shipping between campaign phase and pledge manager to become common practice in future campaigns. All I can do to prevent that is to (politely!) voice my complaint and vote with my money. I would also like your opinion on cmons handling of this higher shipping cost. Or better, the lack of it. For example not offering solutions for backers like collecting shipping at a later date or offering left over shipping costs as a credit, in case the shipping rates fall (as they are projeted to do). And also cmon not offering backers the option to gradualy increase their pledge and keeping the pm open for a longer period of time or reopening it between shipping phases, as other publishers have done. All of that would help backers mitigate monthly expenses on an expensive product.
In Australia, Australian Consumer Protection Laws ensures you can't "sign your rights away"
And companies selling into Australia are bound by our laws.
The same in the EU. USA land of the company, home of the dollar.
Nice, I believe it's the same here but could be wrong
Thanks Alex, this was very helpful! I appreciate you putting this together, I am extremely excited for this game!
Telling my wife of shipping costs will still not be a smooth conversation 😒 😂
Yep...sorry 😔
$410 for the Galactus pledge? Forget shipping, I need to figure out who's willing to pay that money for two core boxes and a huge mini. The problem is not CMON, the problem is people willing to pay this and enabling these ridiculous prices.
"A fool and his money are soon parted"
Galactus is why I didn't back. I'm glad I passed. Keep putting these crappy weights in, so I won't spend money on this crappy company
As always. Same kind of people destroyed the video game industry.
I only back at £/$1. The amount of times I simply don't now purchase the product is incredible. I realise I don't need it or that it doesn't float my boat or, even weirdly, there's just too much on offer by the time the pledgemanager opens up. I'm generally going right off crowdfunding though as a whole... I hate all the extras and the cost, knowing I'll likely never play through the base game never mind all those crazy adds. Then there's the waiting, often forgeting I even backed something or no longer being interested. I have boardgames on my shelf, loads of them, that I have yet to play so it's not like I'm going without. Doing all this, I've found I'm far happier and content.
Great video and chat as always, Alex. Love your stuff!
Great video Alex! Completely agree with all of your points, and I'm right there with you in the "this sucks, but it's also the world we live in right now."
Yep, sad reluctance is where I'm at.
Due to the combination of shipping, VAT and exchange charges, the costs of the base pledge has literally doubled. I only made a £1 pledge so I need to decide, do I 1- get the base pledge with stretch goals, 2- wait for retail and get the resistance box with the money I've saved, but no stretch goals or 3- skip it and save my money for a new campaign (blood rage 2) as I already have the KS version of Black Plague?
I absolutely stopped backing CMON.. The FOMO tactics absolutely annoyed me. It is what it is at this point. Clearly I'm not hurting them. Since I wasn't backing them.. I had no idea about the shipping prices either. Just absolutely glad I no longer give them my hard earned cash. They don't deserve it.
Same, I hate their FOMO practices and have no interest in supporting such kickstarters.
@@scottwallbank4794 I've always said they should just switch their name from CMON to FOMO.
As a board game fan who also works in the shipping logistics industry, I can say that shipping is insanely volatile at the moment and unless these companies manage to get a killer contract for their shipping rates, they’re probably getting screwed. Especially if anything happens that would cause lost/damaged/delayed packages. A lot of those refunds have been voided since the beginning of Covid. A lot of these games are also going to definitely get screwed by DIM weight vs actual weight because while components are generally rather light, they take up a LOT of valuable shipping space. That said, there’s no reason for CMON to price gouge their shipping here. The rates I’ve heard listed seem irrationally high. The only thing I can think of is that they are definitely passing along a lot of that ocean freight cost in addition to the full cost of from distribution to door. That said, if you’re worried about running into this in other campaigns, pledge the $1 and decide in the pledge manager. It’ll be your safest bet to avoid massive changes in the shipping costs.
Agreed on the $1 for sure
In the UK, Kickstarter decisions are also about investigating the taxes as well as the shipping as it all adds up to increase the initial pledge.
For context, it's not so much the size of the shipping costs that people have been angry about, but the massive increases over the estimates in the campaign are the issue - a campaign that is really rather recent, and certainly was live when the shipping crisis was very much in existence. Sometimes people are a little too hasty to shout "bait and switch", but on this occasion I very much empathise with those who feel like they've been duped.
I'm lucky, as I have no interest in CMON's games, but it doesn't stop me having great empathy for people who put a lot of money up, and are now being asked for a lot more money, or to give up 10% of their outlay to get the partial refund and cut their losses.
Other big companies do much more to preserve customer goodwill, as do many of the smaller crowdfunding projects.
exactly. Hey come and get your haircut for $5, but then mid-cutting, the stylist told you that he/she made a mistake and it should have been $50. You can either leave right now with a half-finished haircut, or you can pay $40 in total as opposed to $50 to let he/she finish. I don't know what else to say
Question for me is did CMON just badly miscalculate shipping prices (which seems unlikely) or did CMON knew what the real shipping prices would likely be and chose to lowball (relatively) it so people won't be turned off by the high shipping prices and pledge the KS (instead of waiting for retail)?
@@chencNYC lowball. There is no way CMON was blindsided by this.
@@hechuan5075 so basically, car mechanics.
@@chencNYC I vote for lowball. Shipping prices changed the most around 2 years ago, now it's just changing between very pricey and ridiculously pricey. Not the same level
When CMON was less than truthful in the first MU Kickstarter, I asked for my money back and have refused to do business with them.
Totally fair.
Really enjoy your content Alex, thanks for all you do for the community. You going to gencon?!?
Thanks! And yes
My issue with CMON is they are not a new kid on the block. They know what they are doing. I’m in the states and the shipping for just the core pledge was double than what they expected. That’s horrible and they should know better. Yes if you are going all in $140 isn’t devastating but $70 for single shipping for a core box is horrendous.
Very true. I feel the same.
The single box is what causes the outrage…absolute rip off
Yup
Agreed. I request a refund
@@ilqrd.6608 Yup 100 CAD shipping to split the wave. Galactus is $120 CAD just for shipping, so over $330 for his big ass. Haven't decided.
I think the fundamental thing about this is in crowdfunding, backers are taking over most of the risk of the project. In small cases, it’s just about feeling good that you made something happen that couldn’t otherwise. But in big projects with big companies, we really need to think harder about why we are accepting that deal, what we are gaining in exchange for taking the risk, and what more we need to demand from the companies that are taking our money.
I think the board games side of crowdfunding has been fairly blessed for a while now, compared to how frequently disasters like this happen in other categories. I think a lot of us are just now realizing the risks are not just hypothetical.
We need to demand more, not just in terms of value vs retail pricing, but I think in terms of transparency. I think it’s fair to expect more transparency and honesty than we have been given so far. When you invest in a company, it’s considered due diligence to look at their budget, how much are they paying for this and that, how much is profit. When you invest in a Kickstarter game, everything is imaginary, from funding goals to “free” “stretch” goals to “subsidized” shipping. It’s time to grow up.
In this case, bare minimum, CMON needs to give some real accounting over how it is that the shipping costs doubled in 3 short months.
I absolutely agree.
Crowdfunding does depend on the backers trusting (or believing in) the creators. It's a brave, and quite possibly foolish, creator who takes that trust for granted and erodes it. Once the trust is gone, there are no backers.
I just made my own comment. I also mentioned transparency. Thats the biggest disappointment. I'm paying high shipping and I'm gonna probably get the game close to the same time as retail. I went with the core box and a few add ons. Yeah theres stretch goals, but we'll see if its worth the extra $80.
The problem is the base pledge with single wave to Canada is $78, that's crazy
Ya, it's insane.
I backed at the Resistance level, getting both core boxes. It is already expensive as it is. Thought about adding expansions but how much am I going to be playing this game? I have Dead or Alive coming, do I need another Zombicide game?. The shipping is twice what was on the campaign. And then there's VAT (which I knew was coming). $140 total. Should I really be spending so much money on a single game? I am considering asking for a refund or simply downgrading my pledge. I can afford it but then: What can I do with $350 instead?
I just want CMON to put some freakin padding into the shipping boxes this time. It is frustrating to spend this much money on shipping when they don’t put any effort in protecting the product
Ya, but that would also increase shipping even further. Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
@@BoardGameCo true but with X-men united I ended up having to spend over $100 for alternative solutions because most of my box inserts were destroyed (Thank goodness the Sentinel box was one of the few in good condition) I spent extra anyway.
For Zombicide I was disappointed in the increased price but I expected it to cost extra so I am not upset with them over it except for the core box shipping price like you said. Now if they want to send both core boxes in wave 1……….
@@BoardGameCo I am sorry, but that is bs. Awaken realms and many others are doing way better job or at least are honest about high prices.
I'm glad that I've skipped this campaign because the final price for the All-In with shipping to me (Estonia) and taxes is above 1k$. It's something insane. I'm definitely not counting to have to pay another 400$ when already backing the 600$ in the game
There is another option that is not discussed. Make smaller KS campaigns. Start with the core box only then come back later with expansions. There are so many games where the core game is fantastic and people want more. Euthia, Uprising and Sleeping Gods as recent examples. All of them could have just had a core game and had a second expansion campaign. Why? Because it allows the publishers to fully concentrate on making a great core game with a really good rule book. Second, prices have been coming down (see the Logisitcs Report on WSJ, frieght and other costs are coming down just not as quick as people expect and the Shanghai lockdown has slowed the decline). I feel everyone looks at CMON and want the one big mega campaign versus doing it over two years or whatever it takes to fulfill the core game.
I like smaller campaigns that “stack” where you can order previous products in future campaigns. That might be a way to avoid these huge shipping hits all at once.
I love the idea but I think those follow up campaigns would be less successful. There’s a risk that the hype dies down and maybe the core game doesn’t get phenomenal ratings…it would limit people’s appetite. This way they are tapping into irrational completionist FOMO
@@ilqrd.6608 The follow-up campaigns are usually more successful. Look at "Nemesis Lockdown" or "Rurik Stone&Blade". When the game is good and word got around, a lot more people will want in. Also, first campaigns are often overlook or missed by a lot of people which then would gladly jump on the second campaign.
The problem would rather be that the first campaign might be less successful when people know there will likely be a second campaign 1-2 years later.
@@joeferreti9442 The trick is that this is CMON. The core game usually isn't all that good or doesn't have lasting replayability.
Do they even need to Kickstarter let's be honest Marvel United for example could have gone to retail in stages or even done it in a similar fashion to CCGs. I'd happily buy a 1 character/1Location pack for example from my FLGS.
Fair video as usual. Nice approach. I'm in the camp of I wouldn't have done it. I reevaluated it and thought about just getting the base game and it was $198 to California. It just isn't worth it to me. I know it would hold its value and I could sell it, but I don't particularly like dealing with selling games. On the shipping cost, the only way I can see that CMON gets to those prices is by including the container cost from China to make a 'full cost of shipping' number. I can't see a core only box costing ~$70 to California from a stateside hub. I ended up requesting a refund.
I paid 35 dollars for shipping masters of the universe, this is with multiple expansions. It is supposed to deliver at the end of the year. I wonder if they are charging so much on zombicide to make up for what they are losing on masters of the universe?
I'd say it is very possible that they try to make up for a few past campaigns that they still need to ship for the current high costs.
How much do you think the KS promo box is worth on the 2nd hand market? Think it can cover the shipping cost?
Cover what cost? Shipping alone? Potentially but certainly not a guarantee. I know that every cmon Kickstarter will hold its value, but I'm not confident enough to say how much on each one
The new content for TMB along with the Trove Chest cost $10 shipping. TMB is much heavier and larger box-wise. Right now, I’m still in shock. If CMON would’ve been upfront about shipping prices, I would’ve been able to better weigh my options and decide whether or not to invest. Lesson learned. No one forced me to back it and now I know.
I fall, as you mention, in the 3rd camp - I don't care about any of these pledges. I think that ordering this many boxes in 1 go, without ever having played the core box, IS STUPID. I laugh, a lot, when I see these giant piles of boxes for sale on Marketplace after these get shipped. These Kickstarter/Gamefound pledges are reaching a fever-pitch and those being affected are entirely in a world of their own creation. These are, like you say, very much a 1st world problem.
But, about your video and take on this situation, great job. Level-headed and a practical look at both sides.
Thanks TJ
A big issue with Kickstarter is the “shipping” has changed from charges that seemed very similar to what you would expect to ship something similar yourself to something entirely different. Now it includes the cost of freight, shipping, and handling costs. Sure the company has to pay these costs, but if they were selling retailer, they would be eating all these costs (although actual handling and shipping will be somewhat less) as well as selling at wholesale and making a whole lot less in margin. I think that the bigger companies such a CMON are taking advantage of their customers. I haven’t backed a CMON product since the time when they were a really great deal and am glad I haven’t.
Exactly. The publisher needs to get the merchandise from the factory to their market anyway, if they want to sell it on retail. That's usually a cost that is factored into their MSRP (even if that term is meaningless in the context of Kickstarter), but now the customers are supposed to pick up that cost as well.
That is probably at the expense of the backers as well, why not just put all financial burden onto the backers and hold their money hostage. I mean what else are backers to do, if they can't get a refund, they'll either be out the amount for the pledge or pony up an extra 100-150 for shipping.
Gotta disagree here. I worked grocery retail as a price changer for a huge chain and we never ate any costs. EVERYTHING was passed on to the customer. We changed prices every Sunday, and you could track prices going up and rarely down as costs of labor and transportation fluctuated. It just wasn't as obvious, as prices were going up pennies per can on a weekly basis, and not a big push all at once. This is how capitalism works, always will, and always has.
@@freakyzed8467 you don't have an MSRP with groceries though, and if you did you would make sure what your wholesale suppliers/producers would sell to you at an appropriate price, regardless of how high the shipping from the factory to you is.
Like, you wouldn't buy Arizona Ice Tea for your store with their 99c price label if Arizona sold it to you for 70c + 35c shipping.
@@freakyzed8467 the issue is that the freight is normally absorbed in the cost structure of a retail offering. A consumer purchasing retail may pay shipping and taxes in addition to the retail price (which is often at a discount to MSRP). Now Kickstarter companies are comparing their price to the MSRP but moving the freight costs from inside their price structure onto the consumer.
BoardGameCo: Do you bleed?
CMON: (turns back)(flies away)
BoardGameCo: 'cause you will!
Lol
Thanks for doing a good and fair video on this issue. You walked a razors edge very well and if CMON punishes you for it, that will be sad. It was a very fair look at it from both sides of the problem.
Will CMON issue refunds if the costs of shipping goes down next year?
Hahaha
Looks like I'm getting out of Kickstarter projects as soon as I got into them. Will fulfill my current pledges but that be it. I'm now a part of the cult of the now which enjoys free shipping and I'm at level 9 at cool stuff so I get a sweet discount on that also. Too bad.
Yep, it's a reasonable choice.
My estimate to UK worked out to be 105usd originally when taking into account the pledge shipping, my addons shipping plus vat for the game and shipping. Ended up being 130usd so an increase for sure but I'll clock it up as a loss & move on and wait for a very cool game.
I wonder if since I want the resistance pledge, maybe I just get the core box to get the stretch goals and then pick up the X-Men box at retail? I think that is coming to retail...
The plan is for it to come to retail....as always there's the chance it doesn't, hence the fomo.
With Nemesis Lockdown being $150 on minimart I question marvel zombies core boxes being $80 at retail. I’m doing the resistance pledge since I think msrp on these might be closer to $150, which means $120 on minimart. Maybe I’m wrong, but we’ve seen retail pricing climbing so I’m just going to order it now.
There's a difference between the shipping being higher and it being double what they say. They knew exactly what they were doing and intentionally woo'd backers with a cheaper cost on the campaign. Cmon was one of my favorite publishers but this is where I stand and draw the line with other backers. Glad I did $1. No game is worth this.
Thanks for the well thought out commentary.
Absolutely
I confirmed without even thinking about it, so I had to go back and check what the difference was. I had gone with the undead pledge because I figured I could get the x-men core retail but still would get the stretch goals specific to it with the undead. Looks like I am paying $25 more shipping than estimated which Isn’t too bad considering how much I am getting in stretch goal minis.
In the past I either pledge for the game to support the campaign (add-ons I add on pledge manager to evaluate shipping costs) or not at all (not even $1).
I guess campaigns will force backers to lock the pledges early and charge shipping sometime later after this point (e.g. currently Academy Legends and Agemonia pledge managers don't charge shipping costs). It's very unfortunate for backers when estimates are not accurate.
Thanks Alex for the advice! Is there a reason you suggested adding multiple Undead pledges instead of higher pledges? Kind of wondering which can be sold for more as I have some more credits after downgrading. Thanks in advance!
I believe the stretch goals are the best value - in terms of amount of miniatures and content so but getting the base undead pledge gives you the SG per base game.
¡Buy more from cmon that will show them!
As always, this is a very thoughtful take, Alex.
I agree that shipping is crazy now. But many companies handle this situation very poorly. All they do is announce the newly raised shipping price, and expect the backers to take it or leave it.
A better way is make an announcement and break down the numbers to justify the rise in shipping fee. Let the backers see that the company is doing all they can with this issue. Perhaps even throw in some bonus items/cards to reduce the shipping anxiety.
I have to disagree about the idea of "getting over it" or "moving on". That does not help the situation at all for both camps. It is basically pretending the problem doesn't exist and doesnt create change. I think there are only 2 reasons for the nearly doubled shipping in the 3 month time frame since the campaign: bait and switch to get more pledges or negligence - both of which are really bad. If it was negligence - they should do whatever they can to eat at least some of the costs to be as close to their advertised shipping as possible or offer an opportunity to do a full refund with no refund fees. Most companies would offer such a thing if the fault is on them. I have always been frustrated with CMON but ya this bothers me a bit. The problem is CMON is no taking ownership for these issues and if you look at other companies, they will take every step to rectify the situation.
Also the solution of buying more is just supporting the company more and giving yourself more work to correct their own mistake which doesn't sit as well with me.
Appreciate the video but I think it's fair to disagree on a few points.
Companies respond to money. The only way to bring the run away Kickstarters under control is to stop backing them. When they get 1/10 of the pledges then they'll get the picture. Until we stop buying them, they'll keep pushing the costs up as high as they can.
The "Kickstarter junk" campaigns are heavily subsidized by cheap shipping to just keep throwing out more cheap plastic junk instead of better games. The shipping problem now is just speeding up what's needed to happen for a while.
Agreed
Agreed and actually sad that Alex is making this kind of argument. Definitely a sponsored kind of response to ensure relationships with CMON are maintained
Definitely doing $1 going forward for CMON. I can see them pivoting to exclusive items if you back x,y,z pledged level. Then $1 pledges either can't get it or have to pay extra. Shipping is making kickstarter less feasible with each campaign.
Lets see if they ban 1$ pledges in the future ;)
I've been waiting for the Middara late pledges to open this month, but rumor has it the shipping is going to be painful. Whether I go all-in or not purely depends on what the shipping prices will be - and based on this CMON situation, I'm not getting my hopes up.
The MonPoc shipping did something similar although not as extreme as this apparently. I stopped backing CMON awhile ago, mostly for their creeping add on syndrome when backing their earlier projects, but with these shipping costs, I'm more glad than I already was that I had done so.
When I helped out with shipping at a prior company, we were charged for 'volumetric weight' from some carriers which means the shipping for a light but large box could cost more than a much heavier but smaller box. No idea if that applies here at all, but it may be part of it.
All those minis are horribly inefficient to store, pack, and ship. They may be $5 to make, but giant mostly-empty boxes are evil when shipping container space is at a premium. That's why WH40K always ships flat boxes you have to build.
They're selling $3 of plastic in a big $30 retail box. Cheap shipping is the only thing that's enabled this behavior for so long.
You commented about the e-sign thing that had not happened before in Kickstarter. TH-camr LegalEagle recently talked about issues with online signatures in a video. E-sign user agreements. I wonder if he might have some comments into this.
I didn't end up backing this one, but I think the low tier and 2 wave shipping (you mentioned) things are the ones that make me feel like people are getting screwed, $50 for 1 core box and probably 1-2 boxes in stretch goal addons is crazy. I just finished backing three campaigns, One that will probably have a similar amount of boxes (2-3 Sleeping Gods New tier), shipping was around 16. And also Wayfarers of South Tigris (which will probably just be one box) came in around $9.
But I also have a theory for CMON, that the backers are paying the entire cost of the container because there are so many backers, that the entire shipping container is for this campaign. Often game publishers get to do a larger run than the campaign, and that will sit around for surplus for retail (for the next X months/years), so it isn't justified for them to charge the cost of the whole container to early backers, but in this case I think the entire container (maybe even 2 required) is for this campaign.
Love the positivity of this video. I agree that you shouldn't let the shipping prices sour your experience if you were going to pay them anyway (this describes my boat).
In any case, I started KS with late pledging MUX. And now I'm already completely done with KS. Just not for me. But I don't regret my KS "binge", it's been a fun experience, and as a huge marvel fan, I'm grateful I had it when I did.
MU/MUX and MZ are the two KS projects I'm most excited about.
I am in the group who never would have backed if I'd known. I really struggled with the price before I pledged, and didn't really understand how the $1 pledge worked, or I'd have gone that route. I've already put in a refund request. If I have to pay 10%, I'm looking at it as a learning experience. If you pledge at a higher level and drop it in the pledge manager, do they refund the difference? Do they still take 10% of the difference? I didn't even know you could do that, considering they've already taken all the money but the shipping. Trying to get it all back via Kickstarter is tempting, but I don't want to wait and risk them not coming through.
They refund 90% of any money you already gave them, And if you had left over after pledging it's 90% of the left over ammount.
@@malcolmdouglasmichaluk8263 Thanks for clarifying.
I got my fingers burned with zombicide invader. While waiting for my KS to arrive, I went to the UKGE and it was on sale there, it was being pushed heavily by the asmodee (iirc) crew. I received my copy about 4 months later. The shipping fees were large, and that what put me off marvel zombies. Will wait till retail version hits.
Your assumption is that the method they use to determine shipping cost doesn't start on the high side to cover the instances where people are manipulating the system to find a lower rate. The lower rate could EASILY be the correct, or even an inflated rate itself.
100%, but I'm fine with that. If they aren't making money as a whole on shipping, that's good enough for me.
@@BoardGameCo I agree. I'm just not starting with the assumption that they aren't overcharging. This product won't be shipping for a while. Prices could go up or down drastically by then. And there's no transparency about what will happen with the difference, or how much they are overcharging now to cover potential losses. Or how they were so far off in their initial estimates when prices have only decreased. It doesn't add up.
Fun story:
If I want to send something to China from Germany I have to pay 10 bucks easily. My Arnak compass collection came for just 2 $ from Aliexpress secondary seller. Shipping that in Germany alone would be more expansive. How comes that shipping a pledge is even more expansive than me shipping something private? Sure - someone wants to get paid for packing the stuff as the parcel prices are just transportation. Of course the fulfillment center will have to make a cut. But they have contracts for lower shipping prices than a private person.
And why do we have to pay VAT on shipping? I do not pay the target destination tax on shipping when sending a parcel from my location as I pay where I am and not where I want the parcel to go. Or did you ever put a stamp of your country on a postcard, when you are sending them during your vacation in a foreign country?!
Seeing retail shipping prices of a localized version in Germany... usually no shipping if your cart value is higher than 29/49/100 Euros.... easily done.... VAT is included in the way our prices are "created", in retail games are usually published at a reduced price already so that you save shipping in minimum but mostly on total price (game + VAT) as well....
High Shipping prices increased by VAT on shipping even more are the reason I will pass on most kickstarters....
I bought Great Western Trail for 23 € in retail. Why should I pledge for a 150 $ game which costs me 208 $ when 25 $ shiping is VATted as well.... easy pass.... even considered that retail prices are closer to 60 € than 30 as they used to be a few years back...
Simple as that. :)
I've been a majority $1 backer for many years now, and this just made me feel better about my approach. Exceptions are when I worry whether a campaign that I believe in will cross the line (like SHEOL), if I want to get a limited early bird deal they have, or if it's a campaign from the town I live in and i just want to support them (I'm a sap, but w/e), or if it's obvious that they won't be doing a PM
Shipping prices aren’t going to drop anytime soon and predicting them in 9 months would be impossible. We enjoy our games being made in China for cheap, if they were made in America or Australia they would be 5 times more expensive.
GW moved theirs to the UK. Lots of good games manufacturers starting in Eastern Europe. Superior product hands down. Archon Studios is a good example. Backed a few and they are as good as top tier.
The full pledge without Galactus..Hungry Pledge? Is $151 USD to me in Canada for 2-wave which is almost $200 if not bang on $200 just for shipping. Absolutely insane and I've never paid close to that even recently. I'm going to guess that CMON locked in their shipping price in case it went even higher so now they're locked in.
I’ve begun backing at $1- Hanamikoji was the one that solidified it for me, but the few games prior to that PM surprise that I backed were also at $1. There’s a couple of exceptions, but it also seems like campaigns that have been run this year are much less polished, much less certainly good than prior years
Ooof yeah, I saw that one. Shipping is more than the game right? I was in for $1 cause I want the playmat but that seems to have been put on the back burner
Ya, Hanamikoji bothered me more than this one....air freighting everything seems insane.
@@BoardGameCo They aren't doing that. They've changed things.
I've been looking forward to this video ever since the bomb dropped earlier this week. :) First thought that came to mind was interest in Alex's thoughts.
Enjoyed as always, and agree pretty much across the board. Loved the 'if we put 100's of dollars into a pledge, this should be our worst problem'. Hehe
One thought on the cost for a single box: I just received Nemesis recently and bought an insert for it separately (DiceTroyers in this case). It was a little under $35 shipping from Italy. It was lighter than a core MZ box, and wasn't doing multi-phase shipping (China -> US -> Me). So a leap of $15 to ship a full box of game... Yeah, I get it. Don't like it, but.... Even some of the little bits that I tend to get from overseas (Poland, Czech, Italy, etc), it isn't cheap ($5 for 5 slime markers).
I think CMON may have decided to step back and go "here it is!". Again, as you said, not a great look for them in their.... presentation of it (all that legal stuff too, hehe). Not necessarily bad HANDLING, but rough presentation. It will be very interesting to see their next update on the project.
Thanks for the great breakdown, thoughts and insights!
the issue was that shipping costs have not jumped like their charges between the campaign and now, so why did they lowball the estimates so much when they already had an actual idea of the costs
Only games I back nowadays are the Garphill ones, the shipping is very low, you are just getting it a tad early + some promos, and they are very transparent about it.
Fantastic video as always. Lots of great info in here. My question:
You say that you understand the need of the company to do certain things with so much on the line, but it's at the cost of the relationship. How much do you think that relationship is worth and do you think it was worth destroying it for so many in this instance?
Still watching so sorry if this gets answered later :) It's an interesting pull in two directions!
Their only value the relationship with their shareholders not their customers.
$300 Australian to get the base pledge delivered. Alternatively I could buy 3 to 4 games from my wish list. So do I want this, or Castle of Burgendy, Jaws of the lion, Marvel United X-men base game and Brass Birmingham.
I expect the base game will sell for $120 Australian free delivery - the question is are the kickstarter exclusives worth $180.
This felt like a Good Mythical Morning intro, heh. Used to watch them a ton.
I think we are looking at a different pledge manage I pledged the base box with stretch goals which works out $130 with tax, also I haven't read the two disclaimer things but I have been told that CMON will not replace stuff broken in transit. I will be a $1 pledge from now on.
I kind of knew the postage was too low, the dimensions of the galactus thing was so huge. i didn't look at the pledge manager yet. not too excited about paying that much shipping but again i had a feeling this was going to be bad.
my shipping is $155 for the all in. i live a couple states away from you, kind of odd.
Interesting, I wonder if the rates are changing or that's state by state.
Another frightening thought Alex, is perhaps CMON is seeing how freight and shipping and handling charges will be increasing in 2023 and is just ahead of the curve, not behind it like so many failing KS campaigns?
I honestly wish I had paid more for shipping for some of the other kickstarters I picked up. I've received some busted, damaged, bashed, opened at some point, and manhandled to the point the company had to replace. I went all in too and I figured the shipping was gonna be nuts.
I have pretty much always backed for a dollar, mostly because I want to see the exact shipping prices (and nowadays the VAT as EU resident) before I put more money into a game. Only few specific games I have pledged full amount, and those have usualy been either giving the exact info beforehand (Thunder road vendetta) or are games that I will get, regardless what the shipping will be (marvel dice throne).
It is just bad idea to pledge more than 1 dollar for Cmon games, as their shipping prices can be whatever, and the number they had (even before the Covid and rising shipping prices) for shipping on the campaign page, was often for base game box, and might still have been different in the PM.
Also, never do 2-wave shipping. If you are frequent KS pledger, you most probably have some other game to play until the main wave comes. If you are not a frequent KS pledger, just go to a shop and buy another game instead of paying extra shipping. Or do something else until the game comes.
Always only back for 1$ in a CMON campaign.
I think the problem is that shipping costs for the base pledge (core box) is double what the estimate was on their campaign page... just 3 months ago! My quote is $80 for the core box alone (with the stretch goals box) for one wave shipping, compared to $130 cost of pledge. At that point, why not just sell the stretch goals and let the backers pick up the base game at retail?
Just to add, estimate was $32-46... and I can add additional pledges for $9 for up to three core pledges (so it looks like they have a high basic handling fee). Also, I just back projects with shipping estimates due to the current situation on shipping, so this doubling of estimates over three months is bad practice imo. I wouldn't have backed the core if it had no estimate and now I'm stuck paying more or asking for a refund and losing 10%.
As always thanks for a balanced discussion.
Absolutely
I found shipping prices from CMON to be extremely high even in 2018. Even when accounting for my location and the weight of all-in pledges, the shipping costs became prohibitive and I no longer back CMON projects directly. Unless there's a retailer pledge, I won't bother.
Totally understand
They ask me to pay $95 to get the damn Undead Pledge to my doorstep in a 1-wave shipping to Germany (vat+shipping vat included). This is nuts... Someone else mentioned the Undead Pledge costs him $130 shipping, and when upgrading to Resistance Pledge, they want an additional $150. How does this make any sense? The Core Box + Stretch Goals $130, 1 additional Box adds another $150 to a total of $280 just shipping... So just to recap this complaint. Shipping two small boxes in one package costs $130, but adding another small box into that same one package, costs $280? And we all know, these 3 boxes fits into the same package, as the Undead Pledge will be delivered in. And to sum up my own complaint, I would have to pay $220 to get the Core Box + Stretch Goals ($130 pledge), which would be the most expensive Core Box + a bunch of Kickstarter exclusives I've ever paid for. The Core Box will cost about 80-100€ or something I believe in retail. So the "free" Kickstarter stuff actually costs me about $120. What a great deal... So what would be the solution in my eyes? I think the deadline for 1-wave shipping shouldn't be in 2 months. On the other hand, there should be no refunds, if the game got produced, because that also would be unfair. Refund as long as no costs created yet. So I would expect to pay for my 1-wave shipping somewhere in March 2023, with current rates, but no refund options. And If I wanted to have a refund, I would have to decide soon. And btw, the PM isn't always the final deal. There are countless examples of projects, who asked for additional funds to get "that thing" delivered, because prices went up or whatever reason. And sometimes, they still are unable to deliver. I don't think that would happen with CMON, but it still is a possibility for the future.
I'm wondering why you want more of the hydra soldiers since they don't come with more spawn cards? Doesn't that just make the game easier when playing with hydra soldiers because you can let more come out before they start causing extra activations?
Ideally I would want more spawn cards, but even without them I still want more. For two reasons, first is that it's easy to house rule in a way that balances it, for example house rule that after every hydra card, the next card, regardless of what it is, also spawns one hydra per alert level. You can make up whatever will you want but you get the idea. Secondly is that while I do like the rule around getting extra activations when you run out of a unit type, when that unit type only has six it starts to drift towards randomness too quickly for my taste.
Glad I only backed at 1 dollar, the lowest pledge costs me 65 to ship. That’s insane
Yep, lower pledges hurt even more.
@@BoardGameCo yes and those are the ones that are likely to have chosen a pledge because they can’t pay more than what they asked for.
Alex, JFYI, I'm from Bulgaria (EU) and my extra expenses on the ALL-IN pledge include VAT and the total of Shipping + VAT is $341.22...sheesh :D
As a publisher myself shipping is a mess. As El Dorado Games stated in a recent video you don't know the costs until the very end. We ended up subsidizing all areas even more than we intended (eg 2$ less for US became like 5..and so on). Lessons learned and all that but I kinda get these crazy shipping prices for that amount of boxes. Still unbelievably high though. Not a backer of this campaign gladly
literally trying to organise all my zombicide BP content into the 6 boxes. and this showed up.
Ooh fun, it's doable :)