The Truth About Feature Creep in Game Dev.
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Description: In this video I will share with you important bits of advice that will help and motivate you on your game dev journey.
#gamedev #indiedev
Love and Respect to all those who took a moment to like and comment. Come by the discord if you want to hang out! discord.gg/yeTuU53
I have creeped a lot just writing stuff down 😂
My current and first game I’m working on I’ve added several different things to the list recently. Planning to add a pain killer and stim shot.
It’s gonna be like a swamp attack in game loop, but definitely a different game! 3D cryptid killing game :) doing a series actually:) and this is definitely something I have struggled with.
The entirety of my game design process involves starting with no plan and coming up with "nice to have" ideas to implement and then getting frustrated and stopping when the spaghetti is suitably thick enough. Works out great. I'm sure I'll release a game eventually.
Same here pirate skeleton. Same here.
I want an Everything Burger, please. One with tomatoes, cheese, mayo, lettuce, pizza, oatmeal, donuts, candy, MMO, Battle Royale, Bacon, and don't forget the pickles
Only 20 seconds in, but already thank you for indicating some level of willingness to defend this phenomenon as we go. So often I expect to only hear this paired with "why and how to prevent it from happening" rather than any indication that it also has some value. You've got me listening.
I've already said this a couple of times but thank you once again for this type of videos, they're really cool and nice to listen to.
I will never stop appreciating the responses brother, I love to see familiar faces in the comments, it's one of my motivators to keep this stuff going! ( btw I'm a Serj Tankian fan! )
Thanks for the tips!
I'd like to mention that some like the Last Guardian and Shadow of the Colosus use Design by Subtraction. It's the idea of stripping away every part of your game that doesn't add to the intended experience.
If you know what your game is supposed to be, than you should know what systems and mechanics can (and can't) be a part of it.
i'll have to find some dev diaries for those games! Thanks for sharing. Something for a dedicated video perhaps! ;)
Boils down to always asking yourself 'How does this feature improve the primary gameplay loop?' ... If it doesn't, it's probably not worth including.
When Keanu tells you about it, then you know it’s legit
Another thing related to feature creep, is that if a developer adds another system or gameplay mechanic to their project, it inevitably adds another layer of complexity, it's another hurdle that the player has to get over and if a developer just keeps adding features non stop without considering how much time a player has to invest just to learn your game, then you end up with a product that is so difficult to get into because it bloated with features and mechanics you HAVE to understand that the player might just not even bother to play it.
One perspective that I learned from a game jam and that I'm doing my best to apply to my own game is:
Imagine if your finished product is a car. You shouldn't think of making your game as making each individual part of the car - such as the wheels, doors, engine, etc. - and then assembling all of it only near the deadline. Because then you'll probably have wasted too much time on individual parts without having had the chance of testing if they work or not.
Instead, you should think of it as making a complete thing, on a small scale, and then slowly increasing the scale of it, while always having something that works, until you finally have that car at the end. (At the game jam it was visually represented as starting with a scooter, then a bicycle, then a motorbike, and finally the car).
While this analogy pertained mostly to time management in a game jam, I find it could apply to scope creep as well, because I find that when I think of new things, they tend to be like cool new parts of the car, where I spend so much time on them without verifying if they are good or not.
That's similar analogy in programming field with code you write
This 11 mins video > some hour long GDC videos
Before passing the 1:25 mark I had to stop and share a proof/insight. Does feature creep impacted the Cyberpunk development? They had nice features on the 2018 demo, then it was stripped away. They got Keanu then forgot the AI and polish the driving system...
You can't release a game changing game without being certain that you are able to make something better then it was made 17 years ago!
Thanks again for an awesome insight!
@SynthWave Dave I don't know. It seems a little strange showcasing the feature as a "nice movie". Since I don't have much experience with animations and 3D, and my Brother is dealing with Blender and those stuff, to me it would be easier to get into Unity and really make the game...
@SynthWave Dave I had an awesome idea to make a kick ass Cyberpunk game. And it would be a feature creep heaven!
The game is based on a classic tabletop RPG. It already have an almost infinity structure. You just need to go along and implement a kind of weapons generator like the Borderlands and Diablo II.
Instead of wasting time with a home made engine, get the unity enterprise custom made.
Make a huge kickass gorgeous city with a kick ass AI life, full of possibilities. It won't be that hard to implement it. GTA3, a 17 years old game has a better Ai, police, etc.
Instead of getting Keanu, get in touch to Sony/Mgm to get OCP licensed into the game.
Each new feature you release could be an implant from OCP and other companies. In a CD/CI environment it would be easier to implement, implement seasons, build up new stories.
My own defense against feature creep is to use High Concept as plumbline. Any system idea that wouldn't directly enhance the experience described in the elevator pitch, I deem to not fit on my already overloaded plate.
You've quickly become one of my favorite Game developers on TH-cam to follow along. Please keep it up!
Another fantastic and insightful video as always, John.
(And released on my birthday, no less!)
Sometimes this kind of videos are sooo much useful than knowing a specific feature on Unity or coding. I've just came out of the Brackey's Gamejam 2021.1, and I totally agreed with you John about the "adding this feature because other devs will think it's cool". Suffered myself for doing that, and barely manage to complete the jam for adding extra features that weren't vital to the core gameplay.
Thank you soo much for this videos!
As a hobbiest game creator, I was surprised that my first project deviated so much from my original design documents for completely unexpected reasons which, in retrospect, I really should have anticipated.
A large part of that was the simple decision to have keys as an item you had to carry to unlock a door but since you can only carry one item at a time it meant dropping any means of self-defence against NPC threats. This did work to make dodging past threats very exciting but the optimal way to then play the game was to just run around with keys and evade enemies. This made all other equipment utterly pointless. So development needed to be stalled to have keys as an inventory resource rather than an equipped item. It was technically a new feature that needed development time, but I'd say it was more of an iterative change rather than feature creep.
So yeah, I get now why detailed design documents aren't always useful when going into a project but that having a general design direction with critical beats you want to hit correctly is far better to maintain a vision but support the creative process within its scope.
I’m starting out as a indie gamedev and you are my point of reference. Nice and useful content without confusion. I like that relaxed mood that you have too, keep up with the great work😊😊
Thank you so much John! Your reasoning and stories in the video really make you think about things that are hard to understand as a beginner :)
Cheers FireKS, thanks for the comment mate!
I make my projects in a way that allows me to add features but doesn't make me have to redesign other things, by making mechanics and features first and level design later
One question, does he look more like gamedev *Jesus* or gamedev *John Wick* ?
Gamedev Jesus Wick
Bit of John Rambo in the woods with the bow and arrow in the last vid too.
@@ChrisTeeGaming lol true
i'd say hes actually the second coming of john romero
The way he talks reminds me of Christian Bale.
Thanks from Québec !!
Thank you for the tip and have nice day
For me the problem with games is lack of features and not too many features...
game looks amazing keeping falling into the creep
but then again helps overcome some problems in perfecting the mechanics thanks for the video
I didn’t know I needed to hear this until I heard it. Thanks mate!
my pleasure mate, thanks for the comment!
Keep up the good work and good videos man
Some interesting thoughts here. Whenever I stray away from my games original design I do consider it scope creep but I also like to consider if the change is crucial to the gameplay and/or the games identity. If it's just a cool idea then throw it on the Nice to Have pile and add it if there is time at the end of the project, which there probably isn't.
God this guy is so much better than that herb Thomas Brush it's shocking
Appreciate your insight
Game dev is sure more like "cooking" Since you kinda need to tune or get that particularte taste
Well said!
Man... I looove your vids!
I will share my way to deal with this natural tendency to add too many cool things to a game.
I have two builds to any game on Unity. One is testing and such and I keep pretty robust versioning on this so I can revert if I crash it. But I also allow myself to over extend and feature creep it so that I learn more. I like to know 'what if'... so I can say no to something for a real reason. Not just a spec sheet.
This is great because if I dive in and start adding crafting to a game and mid point realize it's too flipping big to add to this game, I got a LOT of educational data but have not poisoned my primary build.
I also get to test an alternate iteration. Most times... there is a CLEAR winner and any waffling i've done is settled. But again... I learned things... many things.
-------------------------------
But this really boils down to having fun vs running a business. If your income is based on this... maybe use the parallel builds but taper down your experiments to 15%... whereas, for me... I have no need to even publish. Learning is it's own reward so an organized tangent is a way to grow skills.
Just my thots lol
Glad I saw this video when I did. I've been following your previous tips (the ones about not just looking at others and not doing anything.), and my side project's actually moved along quite well since. But, I've reached a point where's it's almost done and I suddenly wanted to start adding features or gameplay I originally never intended on that don't really add that much to the current experience just for the sake of it (kinda like more quantity = maybe better mentality?) I have to keep reminding myself this is my first game and I should stop trying to overstuff it.
So I think 'll save those features for another project. -b
nice one Crum! good to see you man. This urge to pack more into things It's such a common thing, at every level of industry. It CAN be controlled though, the first step is realisation!
Amo tus videos, te sigo desde venezuela, por favor sigue con estos videos, me motivan demasiado
You are the big brother i never had ❤️
Point of diminishing returns....I think the owners of Star Citizen need to watch this video!! :-D
It seems that this subject would be a nice strategy to include in Continuous Development and Continuous Integration.
With a nice mechanism to experiment, you could mitigate the costs impact on the budget.
This was really well demonstrated in the Infernax interview. The developer originally did not have the morality choices during development but after adding them it turned a good game into a great game.
This channel is a gold mine for developers, so much wisdom.
Feature creep shouldn't be a problem. Just update the game after release to keep it's relevance. Good planning at the start of your project is key.
You hit me on all direction, I'm currently making a game, and added multiple features that are not really necessary, now I downgraded it and perfected the remaining features and It made a Big difference on how the game feels. Thank you!
that moment when he describes your game
As a person who dabbles in a lot of different media and is working on his first game, this is really good advice.
It's been really hard trying to keep the concept simple because I keep having so many ideas that could work with the concept. I have to remind myself that adding them all would make the game feel bloated and ultimately make the project too large to be completed by just one person.
Fortunately this is a problem I'm all too familiar with. For instance, I'm writing an album and I've had to work very hard to keep it an album and not let the project blow up to a double or triple album. It really doesn't need to be any bigger.
I remind myself that you can always put a pin in ideas. Write them down. Maybe you'll come back to them for future projects. I think that's where a lot of people go wrong. They try to stuff every idea they have in a project instead of collecting them for future use.
TL; DR - words
Also your game looks fun!
Damn right!
I heard a few comments from game developers working in companies that mentioned one of the main reasons for crunch. They basically attributed it to the perpetual changes in design by directors and such. I don't know much about game development (although I'm really interested) but I feel like it may have largely received such a negative connotation from these decisions. When you have someone who doesn't know the process of making the game, or how difficult or computationally consuming that it may not be practical for implementation and such, it's easy to see how a rigid design document can be fairly appealing. But feature creep is something I would say is not necessarily a game development thing. As I've been working with my professor on side projects, I find myself developing or designing something and testing it out. Once we see simulations and the results being a bit lacking or not up to a good standard, we opt to go for other approaches. I've seen this a fair bit with my colleagues and their work as well, where additions are made to further improve and strengthen their work. So, I wholeheartedly agree that feature creep can be somewhat necessary and definitely a positive addition when used well.
It's not really feature creep to be fair. Feature creep is specifically meant to refer to when features keep getting added to a project without discretion. The problem seems to be people mistakenly thinking adding any feature that wasn't originally intended, which is a kind of iterative design, is somehow "feature creep" and therefore must be bad.
@@hayabusa1x I think it's fairly obvious how thin the line between feature creep and iterative design can get, especially when lackluster management can make it very difficult to discern with poor choices. I guess this somewhat highlights why this video was made in the first place.
@@CrashTheRed I think because management is further away from the actual implementation, they don't have a good sense what work is actually involved in adding a feature and how long that it will take to do, how many systems it will affect and so on. A solo dev on the other hand might have a better grasp of the scope, and if you've been working on a feature over several months, you're more likely to think "screw it, just finish the damn thing".
In my limited experience though, I don't know that crunch is something that can be avoided simply by restraining scope. It can help for sure, but I've worked for companies that keep a very tight scope and still do not manage their time and resources well, taking a very laid back development at first, setting an optimistic release date, having to delay that date and then still having to crunch to hit the new date.
I think most actual devs would be happy to crunch if they were working on features they cared about and thought would make the game more unique and outstanding, but sadly this is rarely the case, and crunch is more like a game of catch up, which again, is due to time mis-managment.
@@hayabusa1x I agree. I think a lot of these problems can be solved by placing an informed manager with the proper management practices. If the manager has knowledge of the implementation, process, etc, then they're more likely to know how to set up proper deadlines, scopes, etc. I noticed this after watching ColdFusion's Intel pt2 video, where there's now an incentive and a drive to place CEOs with degrees in their related work (such as Lisa Sue with AMD), rather than MBAs in finance and accounting.
From my own experience during my bachelor, I worked with a professor that's somewhat strict but always looked out for us. He would force us to begin writing our thesis the moment we started work from day one, and placed deadlines to make sure we actually manage. By the end of it, I was basically tweaking my thesis and relaxing while the rest of my colleagues from other labs and majors were terrified because they had around two weeks or so to write their entire thesis after leaving it for the whole project untouched. Proper deadlines and milestone management can really solve a lot of problems imho.
I love these type of videos 📹 😍
Some devs deal with feature creep. Some deal in creepy features. Then there's the madlads creeping features into games.
For me Feature creep happens before I do anything it's probably why I only have prototypes in my Unity projects but no full game.
I think we as devs should always plan some additional time to some improvement of the game as we do for testing and debugging, but definitely not expanding game to double the production time. Some measurements should exist, such as adding 2-3 new mechanics or add 1/10 of a whole game world.
Now I am curious about that original mead crafting system of yours. Show me and impress me! :D
Very interesting subject. This could indeed be a challenge to find the right balance between having new ideas and to not overwhelme the development process by it. However, if you are not allowed to be creative sometime in the development process, I believe the game may lack personality at the end.
For me, my biggest enemy is the fact that I have an tendency to over encapsulate everything in my code and sometimes it goes against me. But this is totally another subject! XD
Hey, can I suggest a topic that I would like to hear from you? Localization!
This is something I would be curious to know on how you implement the usage of the strings to display the appropriate language on the screen. It seems there is not quite a standard for it and I would like to know your take on it. Personally, I store my text into multiple JSON files that are loaded accordingly for specific UI element.
Ps: I added your game in my wishlist a while ago. Can't wait for it to be released ;)
Pig riding looks awesome :D
Scope creep turned my one-month project into a thirteen-month project, lol...
I came for the game dev divulgation, but I stayed for the jokes
Hey John
As always a reminder for tutorial about level creation with all technical stuff(photoshop to unity) as you have done it
Pls make one
On my list! we will get there! :)
Thanks man,
I am waiting :)
2:12 jfc lol
Harmony between game systems is something I have been thinking about since I started game dev.
I have been developing games for about two years, and I only started up my first Unity project a few months ago because I spent too much time reviewing features and balancing things on the theory side. I want my game to feel amazing to play, but I have found what you said at 4:42 to be very very true. What's the point in planning out the best game ever if it's never going to get made?
9:31 Man I struggle with it so much, I want a cool system in my game but I just cannot find a good fit for it :D I think it would just complicate the gameplay unnecessarily
Like for the hollow joke!
im just here to validate your joke at 2:16, good dad joke
6:00 did you mean Witcher 3?
nice ;D
If the system allows for “higher skill ceiling”, is that feature creep?
I’m still new to this. Lets say a double jump, the level can be completed with a single jump, but a double jump speeds up the progress and reward the player by using less resource(hp pots)
Plus i feel like its a safety net or a more forgiving movement if you almost reach the ledge.
In this case is unlikely. Double jump is likely one and done thing. But if double jump uses fuel that requires finding oil in the world, drilling it and building a refinery, then it's a feature creep.
Wise. Wise af
I have been learning to program with C # and to use unity for about two months (without any previous knowledge) and I have also programmed my first games even if small. But now I would like to study some design patterns and also be able to apply them to write good code, in fact the code of these games that I created is not structured and not knowing the design patterns probably sucks. but I don't know where to start because there are so many and I don't even know what is the best way to learn how to apply them. Would anyone know how to advise me where to start so maybe from the most important patterns and how to apply them?
Start doing tutorials. Doesnt matter which. Do that until you feel like you now how to use Unity. It may feel boring but you have to if you want to learn. Never give up!
Search for game creator on the unity asset store and their website has a great discord with coders as well as visual coders who will offer their advise if you have questions.
In Celeste, the player can't dash or double-dash in the early game; it's a skill you learn. I wonder if this is why you can't double-dash in the earlier levels of Celeste (6:49). If they started making the first few levels before a dash/double was a thing, but the dash ruined some of the levels, they could keep the content they made before programming the double-dash by ensuring players can't double-dash in those levels.
Blood and mead looks like it needs music unless you're still working on the rest of the game
really interesting. thanks for sharing... but i miss the hollow joke...lost in translation, as ever :-(
Thanks mate, there was not much to miss actually! The joke was that i had no joke ;)
@@LostRelicGames Hahahaha ok.
Release date of Blood and Mead?
5:53 AKA minecraft clone.
I dont know if i get the plot correctly but, i think what you mean is we shouldn't overdose the game so it looks cool but the user experience can get worse right?
He just means adding too many features can complicate the game and make it either never be fully realized or take longer than it needs to be created and some of the features may not have been beneficial and the developer spent too much time on them when there was other parts of the game that lacked. Or of course some of these added features can be buggy and game breaking or just make for an unfun experience especially if they take away from the main focus.
You can’t have feature creep problems if you don’t plan any features, hehe
chrisseyTee - 1, feature creep - 0
5:05 DNF(Duke Nukem Forever)is a nice example of that, if you know the story, the owner wanted to add new stuff he liked that he see in other games. :)
i still struggle with desiding on what to have and what not to have in my game. i did to day tho find out that i cant have "a car brand" in my game or at least have it safely in my game so now am stuck with my own car designs but it`s ok, all ways try to look for the Light in the dark :)
btw i hope you can some day chekk my youtube and see my 3D racing game :D i Love your videos of tip`s and Trick`s :D
For all the RPG fans out there - if not for feature creep, The Elder Scrolls series wouldn't have kicked off in its RPG form.
The original entry - Elder Scrolls Arena - was supposed to be just as its name suggest: an arena game. The player was supposed to be a gladiator, fighting on progressively more difficult arenas, and that's pretty much it.
Only a massive feature creep turned it into an RPG.
3:36 Unity be like: 1 million copies??? Alright, that will be 160 000$ (at least) for us. 🙂🙂🙂
I hate what they've done.
Shame Chris Roberts didn't see this video or something like it in 2012...
3 hours ago , I am late 😔😔 by the way nice video
I don’t agree with the loose definition of feature creep at the beginning of the video. You seem to have paired Iteration to Feature Creep. I think that if you plan your game with enough time to put the prototype together with no iteration time, you’ve failed. Iterating on the prototype should be built into your planning. When you get surprised you make the choice to reduce scope, adjust design or add more resources. Feature Creep to me is similar to what you say later on. Is this necessary for the game? Does it answer the hard question “Why?” Does it serve the original design goal and pillars. Feature Creep is adding without answering that question AND when it doesn’t serve the original goal. Extra ingredients as you put it. Feature Creep happens when the vision is weak, the vision holder changes direction or your base game wasn’t fun to begin with. Also, if your feature creep leads to large crunch, you already failed.
If you listen again he said people often confuse what he explained at the begining as feature creep. Then he explained what feature creep actually is.
I am first!!!!
😁👍
#StarCitizen
no dislikes at the time of writing this comment
DEMOCRACY MANIFEST!
Are you ready to receive? ;)
I hate game design documents, they are harmful more than anything imo. It's way to present idea to the rest of the team, to potential publishers are third parties, but if you think that in the end, the game will be like in the original game design document, either it wont, or you'll make a bad game. If you can already tell what will and will not be fun without prototyping anything, without trying anything, without tweaking anything, you are probably making a very generic and bland game.
Feature creep is good when it come to the expense of other ideas that are not necessary anymore, maybe you though that you game needed some RPG elements, but then you tried some power ups and it was really fun and now you no longer need the RPG elements, the bad feature creep is when you keep stuck to your original idea and add stuff on top of it. Iteration is imo the most important part of game design, a game projects evolves, it's built upon itself, the current state of the game makes you understand what needs to be added or removed, you can't be in an eternal state of "oh it will be fun when I have all the features in my doc", sometimes you just need to look at your game and wonder what's the next step to make it better.
feature creep can't kill your game if you are bad programmer and can't implement advanced features 🥴
i'm safe
Like for the bad hollow knight joke XD
Man? Wtf is a feature creep?
Really interesting ideas, love to listent to you but stop reading your script from your scree and get a proper prompter dud, it's jarring.