Mastering Revit MEP Systems Tutorial
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- On this episode of BIM After Dark Live I will be joined by David Butts to talk about mastering Revit MEP Systems. However, this will not be your typical "click here" demonstration of MEP Systems in Revit....
David and I will discuss understanding the workflow more than the features. It’s about changing a mindset to understand the relationship between objects in design and model, and how relevant data transverses between objects. It what CAD guys still don’t get - the deliverable is no longer going to be about the sheet, it’s going to be about the data towards a true set of digital twins.
Some of the topics we will touch on include:
- Reviewing the four step process of Revit MEP system design
- How systems alter perspective towards the MEP design tools
- Understanding the failure of traditional CAD for MEP and overcoming it
- Looking towards new deliverables with clients and consumers
David is the Engineering Technology Manager for Gannett Fleming with over 35 years of experience in the architecture, engineering, and construction field. He has design experience for a variety of project types, and he was an Autodesk University top-rated speaker for labs and lectures in 2011, 2016 and 2019.
So sit back, relax, and let's geek out!!
Links Mentioned:
Try Twinmotion for Free Today - twinmotion.com/bimafterdark
My Review of Twinomotion 2022 - • Twinmotion 2022.1 Prev...
FREE Revit to Twinmotion Course - thetwinmotionkid.com
Connect wit David on LinkedIn -
David's Blog Post - mep-cad.blogspot.com/2021/11/...
Vote for David's Class at AU 2022 - www.autodesk.com/autodesk-uni...
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:12 Try Twinmotion for Free Today - twinmotion.com/bimafterdark
04:33 Introducing David Butts
10:54 The Four Steps to MEP Systems
11:15 Step 1 - Select and Add Target and Source Equipment for Revit MEP Systems
17:45 Step 2 - Create Target Source Relationship for Revit MEP Systems
25:40 Step 3 - Create Connecting Geometry for Revit MEP Systems
34:00 Can you Mirror a Revit MEP System
35:40 Step 4 - Tag, Schedule, & Dimensions Revit MEP Systems
Here are some links to all of the hardware and software I use:
My Main Revit Computer (BIMBOX) - bimbox.bimafterdark.com/
How I Record My Tutorials (Camtasia Studio) - techsmith.z6rjha.net/zVvgW
My Microphone (Blue Yeti USB) - amzn.to/3992DYy
My Studio Headphones (Sennheiser HD 600) - amzn.to/2PxTFwj
My Camera for Videos and Images (Canon EOS 80D) - amzn.to/32zbpg5
The Lens I use for these videos (50mm) - amzn.to/3cvIE8D
My Webcam for Webinars (Logitech C922X) - amzn.to/2wP3AHf
My Favorite Sketchbook (“Blank” by 30x40) - amzn.to/32yAffZ
My Favorite Sketching Pens (Sharpie “Fine”) - amzn.to/3c8r8qO
Greatest Sketching Marker of All Time (Sign Pen) - amzn.to/3ceAukN
** Some of the above links are affiliate links, meaning you don’t pay anything more but I may get a small commission for a sale… Cheers! **
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Wanted to clarify this - the target connector in HVAC should be PRESET/In and the connector on the source should be CALCULATED/Out...just watched the video and figured I should make sure this is clear - great question!!
Thank you David. One quick question, if an engineer provides a duct layout markup to the modeler, should/can the modeler develop the sketch using: 1. Simple duct tools and layout (sometimes faster) or 2. Create a duct system and have Revit propose routing solutions that WILL need to be modified (troubleshooting the routing may take some time). I guess there's pros/cons. What do you think/recommend? Thank you also for sharing your knowledge!
David, amazing stuff! I'm a HUGE FAN!!! I have a youtube Channel where I try to teach people plumbing in Revit. Have you done any courses? I'd love to learn more from you. I'm just blown away. I've never seen anyone talk about MEP systems like you. I have similar thoughts. I just love Revit and all it's possibilities for MEP.
Jeff, THANK YOU! for all you do, and for involving MEP in the conversations. This is SO IMPORTANT.
The more we understand each other, the better we can collaborate.
The more, the merrier 🙂
Of course !!!! Thanks for watching
Completely true, go forward with this great initiative
So true
David Butts!
I owe you my entire BIM career man... Thank you for this beautiful presentation.
Thanks Jeff for hosting. 😉
Cheers! Thanks for tuning in! So glad you enjoyed and so glad David has helped you :)
Awesome, I'm humbled and greatly appreciate it. Keep pushing, we've got so much more we can be doing to make systems even better - check out 2023 as soon as you can! Thanks!
Great comments in the chat! WE work in a separate model for MEP, so you can't use wall/floor/roof hosts since they don't physically exist in the MEP model. If you are doing a hosted element, always use face based families only. You can use workplanes with non-hosted or hosted families, but most of what we use is not hosted.
If I make sure Family Parameters are "Work Plane-Based", I believe that lets the end user choose to host on a face or plane?
Hi David.
We connected about 12 years ago regarding AutoCAD MEP Piping for Plumbing, and I've been following ever since.
It is great to see you here discussing the 4-step process. Nice job!
I simply wanted to reach out and THANK YOU for all these years of standing up for the MEP community, which as we both well know, has been relegated like no other.
I'm trying to do my part on my TH-cam channel, where I teach Revit Plumbing and Fire Protection among others, but in a realistic way based on all the years of experience.
I would love to know what you think about it.
Thanks again, and keep up that fantastic work. We're half way there =)
@@kathrynchristiansen Actually it's a family category setting to make it workplane based - but any non-hosted item can be workplane based, and you are correct. I make sure this is selected if the need arises to place something on an unusual condition such as a sloped wall, etc. I don't use wall, ceiling, floor, roof, etc. based Family types - only face and non-hosted.
@@bimitup Awesome and keep it up - the more people we can get out there pushing the workflow and tools, the sooner we can get to a more efficient design world. Thanks again!
Finally, more MEP content. I am looking forward to the show and looking to learn from the EXPERT! I do both Mechanical and Plumbing for Residential, Commercial, and Industrial. I'm working on bringing the Plumbing guys out of the AutoCAD stone age.
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed! I will do my best to keep some MEP content going, for sure!
Gotta say, that was an excellent and really thoughtful way to present how to look at these systems. Everyone always wants to know where duct and pipe mains are going and what size they are, experienced engineers and designers can give estimates but really we don't know until the loads are finished! The target/source/geometry breakdown of systems was great and really helps break down some of the confusion behind MEP systems. 20:39 I wish all of our families looked that clean.
One of the biggest challenges I'm facing as well is the CAD vs Revit fight and the soapbox talk at the end really spoke to me, we spend so much time fussing about document presentation for these (relatively) small jobs, multifamily, church, office, but I've seen more frequently our industrial jobs do a really great job of emphasizing that the model is the final product. They ring our bell about interference and really make us think about how our systems are designed and how they will physically be constructed.
There's still a lot to learn on MEP, especially it seems with plumbing, but I'm really grateful for the progress that's been made since I've started in the industry only a few years ago. Anything to get away from the nightmare that is AutoCAD. And these built in tools really do help, especially with smaller firms that don't have the capital or time to sink into tons of custom solutions. If Revit can get HVAC load calculations quick and reliable, Trace and HAP will be sweating.
Awesome presentation David! Glad to hear you are continuing journey of Revit MEP.
I love it!
It is great to have people like David Butts becoming an Icon or a SuperStar.
Crazy how you can affect other's peoples life so much.
Balkan, David, Jeff...keep it up brothers, you are really making an impact =)
Many thanks for the kind words - we're all in it together, so keep pushing on your end as well - we'll get there!
Totally agreed, great contribution
David literally just started the the pod off with The MOST IMPORTANT concept in REVIT for MEP. Amazing! I'm currently working on Creating a Domestic Water System and Booster Pump Course and this is the core concept. I create all my fixtures first! These are the driving force behind calculations. In engineering, what is the driving factor behind a calculation. The Input and Givens! I'll be doing some videos on all this stuff! I rarely get to watch experts explaining REVIT MEP. I love youtube! I Hope to reach out to David. I'm just blown away!
Cheers man! Agreed! I was blown away by the simplicity yet the value of the 4 steps the way David broke them down.
@@TheRevitKid @TheRevitKid he brings up at the end the most challenging thing for us MEP guys. It's adoption of changing design techniques and getting buy in from the industry as a whole.
To answer your question about, why we don't do it this way i believe is from lack of education for Revit MEP. That's what I'm trying to change. You would be shocked how many firms still use Revit as if they were drafting. Revit has so many capabilities that are under utilized. It takes us Revit nerds to really show the world the possibilities. This is my goal as a Revit MEP educator. In the future MEP design can be completed in days not months.
I'd love to chat more about the Architecture and MEP relationship and how to best utilize Revit and coordinate between our 2 trades in the future!
I'd be willing to show how this all comes together on your show one day. That's basically what I've been building. It's a game changer and I'm so excited about what you guys are talking about. Keep up the amazing work you do for the Revit community!
Tuning in from Aus on a Saturday for PD! Rvt Architectural Tech Consultant making a shift to Rvt MEP, the interested start in Arcitecture school with our Building Services studies, and the fact the lines between the disciplines are becoming more blurred/connected.
Great video it reinforces why my gut has led me to wanting to focus more in on MEP (beyond Revit too), only had conversations this week about breaking the 2D Drafting Stigma, and focusiong on 3D for future designs.
Hit home with the having fun with the industry, doing cool things, and tuning into great podcasts like these after hours, thanks for another awesome video!
Cheers! Thanks for tuning in !!!
fantastic video, great to listen to a true MEP expert and not the millions of other architects bluffing MEP really badly.
Haha, as one of those millions of architects I agree. ;)
@@TheRevitKid you are genuine about learning MEP yourself, and not pontificating that you already know, big difference, keep up the great work!! i love your videos some of the best available!! im a long time subscriber!
@@Gazcoigne Cheers man!!
David did not disappoint, as usual, great discussion guys!
Thanks for tuning in!!
Nice show thanks. Iam hvac guy designing hvac system for more then 10 years now but i did all this in Magicad for autocad first and now in those last 6 years do this in magicad for revit. The last one year do all stuff in BIM360 still using Revit and Magicad. I guess Magicad users are just in Europe.
MagiCAD has been around for a while and it predominately in Europe markets. Would have been cool to get all of these teams together to compare notes and come up with better ways to develop the tools! Thanks!
You totally spoke my language when you talked about using generic elements like walls and such. I feel like I deal with this topic way too often.
LOL me too, I still do...
oh.................. man.. I was struggling with the problem you just mensioned. The problem is linking the connectors. When you use the link connectors button, it doesn't really connect one to one. It sends the flow to somewhere other outlet a little bit.... That's simple and nice solution. Thank you man. This is exactly what I was searching for.
Cheers! So glad the episode helped!
MEP! :D Great content, as usual! :)
Thanks for tuning in Ricard!
Great guest, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I wanted to post this separately, with the huge influx of Multifamily development projects in the US, we need to have a series on BIM and multifamily developments. The scale of these projects can be daunting, we're talking anywhere from 8 unit townhome stacks to 400+ unit mega developments on huge acreages, usually a Five-on-One wood construction atop parking deck or multiple 4 story wood frame buildings on a lot. MEP systems break down fast with lots of connections, a true plumbing model of the 425 unit complex I'm currently modeling would have performance issues and likely not run on older machines. How do we break down dwelling units vs the rest of the building? How do MEP systems work in these complex buildings, especially massive interconnected systems like electrical and plumbing? Typically, with printed CDs, the units are modeled separately with the building plans only showing risers, load centers, and AHU locations. The MEP giants handle a lot of these projects and from my experience, most are still done in AutoCAD. My firm is less than 50 people and these projects have been quite tricky to handle, but would be highly profitable if we had a good workflow. I get the feeling that very small firms would hesitate to pick up a multifamily project if they are only using Revit. Any tips or tricks? Most architecture firms I work with are switching to Revit and the growing pains in Multifamily are showing on their end as well.
So here's my stance on this. Until Autodesk can figure out how to create system connections across linked files, then you're going to wind up with overall MEP designs in multi-family as opposed to unit based design (which is what I would want). It's going to require the development of the CDE "external" database that all design apps - Inventor, Revit, Infraworks, Plant 3D, Civil 3D and more - can communicate with for the shared data. Autodesk already has the utility connector feature in families that "exposes" key data like size and system, but the system data can't flow through it until we get the data out of these program silos. And for systems - I had to get over it a long time ago, but be prepared - the acceleration of the design technology now is going to make systems obsolete in a few years...until we can start working truly in a "frame"...
Regarding you epiphany around minute 48, it is better to do the core shafts before modeling each flor routing, you dont need to place terminals in each room, you can just total design values by room and decide which duct, and pipe exit from shaft goes to which room.
In my experience project that did not do their shafts first had a lot more problems than those that do not, because when the shaft is ready you just have to focus on the routing, if its not, you have to assume to which shaft you are routing to...
So just to clarify, imo, it best to do room loads, shaft (and vertical pens), tech rooms, then floor by floor layouts. Much less rework down the line.
Thanks for the comment and em suggestion! I understood David to be talking about once your on the floor… I assume he would also suggest risers first. But, I won’t speak for him ;)
Revit MEP - HVAC Doubts
1. How many no of Supply (or) Return Terminal should place per Space/Room/Zone. Is there any calculation method or formula or factors ?
2. How to connect AHU(Air Handling Unit) with Transformer (Power Supply) ?
3. How to Calculate Duct SIZING (Velocity and friction Value) .
4. Why We create schedule and quantities generally for HVAC & Electrical ?
Revit MEP - Electrical Doubts
1. How many Lighting Pictures should place per Space/Area . Is there any formula or method to calculate this.
2. How to Adjust Wattage value as per no of lighting picture and why we create schedule & quantities comparision.
3. In Electrical Panel report I received room 1,2,3 in single row and word mentioned as “Dwelling Unit”. I could not understand the meaning.
4. How to connect Fire alarm/Nurse Call/TELE COMMUNICATION Devices with switches and power supply (transformer).
New here but I'm loving the conversations so far. I'm still in school for lighting and electrical design and was wondering if you've had many people talk about troubleshooting lighting calculations in Revit (probably Elum Tools plugin but I've been hearing about some alternate options recently). As I move closer to graduation, I've found the firms I talk to want to move from standalone software like AGi32 to Revit , but are frustrated by both Autodesk and manufacturer supplied families which block the light source and therefore produce incorrect lighting calcs. This may just be a me problem, but I'll live in hope that there is an interest out there.
Thanks for tuning in! I’m glad you enjoyed ! It sounds like, from David’s point of view, Revit is getting closer and closer to being used for most of your analysis in MEP but it’s not 100% there, yet!!
Hello Tyler I'm not entirely sure on what those firms and people are frustrated because Autodesk delivers generic light families. Light manufacturers deliver their own families but the user can always create inside the Revit their own lighting fixture and they can set all photometric parameters. You even find "how to" videos for that on TH-cam for free.
In Germany software like Dialux or Relux is mostly used. Relux isn't for free but enables to import lights inside a Revit model via a PlugIn - or at least claims this. Dialux is a light calculation tool, where lighting companies like Erco pay for an optimized experience with their lights inside the program. Only these companies can offer .uld-files. Both light caluclation companies started an initiative called "gldf" together. I assume this should enable their files to be BIM-ready. The calculations outside of Dialux (only worked with this, but for more than 5 years now) are really accurate.
@@davidmueller3650 Thanks for the input David. One of my classmates from Sweden uses Dialux so I'm learning a little about that software on my own time. Most the manufacturers I have been using offer .ies files to generate a photometric web. I'm not familiar with .uld files or gldf but I will look into them.
@@dynamo_scripts Thanks for the response. Most of the firm complaints stem from lighting families. The firms I'm talking to are more lighting design based. They'd love to integrate fully into Revit for better coordination and better design representation through rendering, but they find that the local families, and manufacturer supplied families often have a problem providing both accurate calculations and great renders. It's almost always one or the other.
The plugin I'm using ignores geometry on the first pass of light calcs so they often have their light sources hosted in the center of the family. The problem here is that rendering engines like the native Revit render or Enscape do not ignore geometry, so they result in a different light distribution that expected.
Other manufacturers which seem more focused on the architects perspective will double up their light source files (often seen in direct-indirect linear pendants) or place them in nested files to allow for aiming parameters (track lighting). These families give better renders, but at the cost of incorrect illumination/luminance calculations as geometry now get in the way of the light source (.ies file defined photometric web).
This response is getting a little long. If you'd like me to explain further please let me know. I appreciate the engagement from everyone on this channel.
Hi - love the tutorials, and am thinking of subscribing but have found that some courses require 2020 and above, I have the 2019 version. Will I still get value from the courses even if I don't have updated version/s and what if I was to use Revit Lite?
Yes, only one of my courses is 2020 for sample files. The content is still 100% valuable in almost all versions!
Would love to see your proven examples on removing the need for Single Line Diagrams for Electrical Engineering on a 40 Story building. You want me to Model every Riser Tray DB, Switchboard, House Boards, Tenancy Boards. Transformers. "Just model them? in Schematic Design? . Would love to have an easier way. What Industry do you work in? Board Manufacturers, Approvals for breakers?
Great question - check out the new system load tools in Revit 2023 and let me know what you think. We're working towards integration of the riser to the model. And yes, I model all of it, not just for system but for coordination and deliverables beyond just my design - for asset management, etc. It has to start somewhere...SD should always be just about equipment selection, and defining the targets and sources to make sure we know where we're ending up. BTW - it also affects how you bill/invoice for a project. 15% on a predesign won't cut it anymore, 30% is becoming more in line with more clients understanding how making these decisions earlier actually does save them time and money, especially on change orders.
@@7dabutts there's so much more information provided on a SLD, P%ID that cannot be modelled. I model everything i can. however, Showing the relationship with the basement incoming power, transformer rooms, risers, floor boards. Needs to be shown somewhere. cant just look at a 3d model and have all the info. Check out 2023? that just came out 4 days ago?.. ok... Real SLD'd remain through the entire project, printed/Laminated and stuck on the mains board.
@@Barbzy True...it's definitely going to be an evolution. We show a lot of data on P&ID's that never make it into a model mainly just based on the finite detail of some of these items. For example, we don't model sensors but at least put a placeholder in when a client requires it, or simply add a generic tag in the model to indicate location. Could it get there someday? I'm betting we'll be showing more than we are now...
Great show guys. I as well dream of a world where the deliverable isn't the sheet. A world where the Revit model can be freely shared by the entire team without the need of portraying certain views in a 2d medium.. Just how to get there.. What does this look like? I live in an area in Canada where the mindset is still .. "we don't have the budget to do BIM so we wont" or "we do it faster in Cad".. In my opinion at this point that mindset is negligent. The amount of money that the Owner has to shell out in change orders due to lack of proper coordination due to the constraints of 2d drafting is ever increasing and the common argument is... Well the GC needs to coordinate.. BS!
I am an Architectural Technologist myself and I am recognizing the need more than ever to adopt a a more bimcentric way of working.. But how if the world around you isn't interested?
I have started drawing in all my base structure in my architectural models just to have that and am certainly considering learning MEP to a least oversee ceiling height comparisons to MEP sizing for coordination.. Should I need to do that?
Disclaimer I live in another part of the world, so the work flow might be different here.
As an MEP engineer I would advice you to be very careful about starting modeling ducts. Besides the whole doing others work and the bu**h*rt that follows, there is the responsibility that is attached.
I fully understand why you would like to model the air terminals in order to define the space needed above the suspended ceiling, and getting some fixed measurements from the beginning.
But it is not just the height of the air terminal that defines the height of the installation. There's the silencers, the main ducts and most important: crossing of ducts, pipes and cable trays.
This is also the reason why your MEP engineers takes their sweet time giving a finite answer to your questions about ceiling heights.
Man I sound like an old grumpy engineer with no understanding of the creative process of the Architect. But I just know that once we've said a height it is never going to give us any more height above the ceiling. Personal experience tells me that when the architect discover they need a thicker ceiling (like because they need sound dampening ceiling) it is not going to be the room height that is being changed. Because the client has bought that room height.
And I fully get that architects don't know the final ceiling construction from the first day either. Just like the MEP engineer doesn't know all sizes of ducts from the beginning.
@@mariepindstruplinde1671 Greetings from Europe! I can fully support your statement! Its always really time consuming to coordinate all MEP elements. My bosses also worry that people will take our plan for granted. I'm a planner and a construcion company can always buy products that vary in sizes. Mostly my hvac collegues did work in 3d with Autocad MEP for years, but rarely shared the 3d-data. Some investors made BIM mandatory, so today we work with Revit and share that data. After all our plan describes what could be, but it doesn't have to.
@@mariepindstruplinde1671 Every one of those are valid concerns and arguments that have to be addressed, as early as possible. The impact passes far beyond just our own MEP "silo" - for example, having enough interstitial spaces affects structural and architectural elements equally. Ignoring it until the last phase - which is where MEP, and especially electrical get pushed to on most traditional projects, is a leading cause of the dreaded "Change order" which I despise.
Interesting comment referring to "AutoCAD making us lazy & Revit return us back to having to know everything before you start".
Unless I miss understood what was actually meant, I'd say it was the opposite.
Maybe the work discipline or field may make this different (& typical work practices from differing countries) but from my experience and observations of those in the work place around me is the opposite (I'm in Building Services HVAC workshop/construction).
2D AutoCAD you still needed to collect your building information, Architecture & Structure, work out your working space ie:u/s soffits and clearance space between ceiling and soffit etc.
Once done I would start working on my Mech Service and co-ordinating with other trades drawings. Essentially not much different to the procedure when working back on the drawing board.
Working in Revit this "base" work has become very easy/quick/non existent as you collect the respective models from Architect & others and all that info is visually right there without knowing the numbers.
I've seen some quizzical unsure looks on some people when I ask them something like "what's it say on the structural drawings"
I'd say definitely people have gotten "lazy" by relying on a 3D model and/or not gaining the old school skills of simply reading a drawing (& what drawings to look for).
Respectively, I disagree. You’re argument is that instead of spending hours piecing together 2D information spread throughout hundreds of 2D drawings to understand the building and then start designing as opposed to having all of that information right in front of you immediately is lazy? I’d argue it’s efficient and leaves much less room for error.
@@TheRevitKid The term "lazy" was actually used in the interview that AutoCAD made us lazy but Revit returns us back to having to know everything before starting.
So I kind of thought that an odd reference as neither makes us lazy per se just different tools have different requirements.
I agree, the modelling process certainly does cut those early base preparations out and definitely more efficient as a result. That's one of the areas that I enjoy when working in Revit.
🙏Thanks for this helpful tutorial. Have you ever tried..., I want to change the calculation Method in Revit ......
(Path => 1. Systems(tab) ->
2. Mechanical Settings ->
3. Pipe Setting ->
4. Calculation ->
5. Flow(tab) ->
👉 6. Calculation Method )
...... from "the 2012 International Plumbing Code (IPC) Table E103.3 (3)" to my custom fixture flow rate/table.
👉 How would you advise me, please?
👉 Can I use Dynamo to change input/references like IPC Table E103.3 (3)?
Thanks!
PS: Video TIME-STAMP => th-cam.com/video/r0z3ntzpqks/w-d-xo.html
Need more in-depth MEP videos, less razzmatazz cabinetry and plugins.
What can i say… I’m and architect … razzmatazz is what i do. ;)
Didn't find the video useful. The presenter comes across with an academic perception of MEP.
That was the point - in order to do this right, you have to be able to back up and evaluate not just the tools but the process, and make sure you're not trying to apply CAD logic and workflows to BIM environments. I really wish we had more time to get into the details, which I agree would make sessions like this more useful, but that's why we do follow ups, and AU classes, and more. Check this out - this is a lab I did a few years ago that does going into great detail about MEP in Revit: www.autodesk.com/autodesk-university/class/Perfecting-System-Revit-2017 - this covers all three disciplines concurrently with handouts and datasets for each track. You can consume them separately or as part of a whole. Let me know if it helps - thanks!
The revit components are not constructible. That is why you cannot have real MEP routing at a design phase!