EPC On the Brink? General Assembly Will Be Divisive
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
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As an OPC man, I also hope the best for the EPC. I think your last point is spot on, and it's something I've said for a while now. Those denominations for whom the last straw in their previous context was homosexuality, but who after their departure retained women's ordination, will find themselves right back where they began in a matter of a few short years. I think not only of the EPC, but also the ECO and the new Global Methodists. I have a bad feeling that they will be affirming homosexuality within a couple decades. I pray it would not be so, but the foundation is already crumbly.
ACNA as well, the WO battle is really ramping up there.
As a candidate for ordination in ECO, who is also active in an evangelical PCUSA congregation, I hope you are wrong, and ask for your continued prayers.
I grew up Assembies of God which was founded as among the first to allow women ordination but has been very clearly against homosexuality for its entire existence. I pray for you that this can be true in your denomination as well regardless of anyone’s view on women’s ordination
@@Weavileiscool Thank you. I taught a theology course at an AG church while I was in school, and it was a great experience. I met some wonderful people there.
They all will be controlled by gays and lesbians within 10 years. When Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF) broke away from SBC over the ordination of women, they were warned that they will accept homosexuality which the CBF vehemently denied. Within 10 years, not only they accepted, they were openly supporting the same-sex marriage.
What American Christianity needs is pastors and elders with spines. They are filled with "nice guy" pastors instead of those who will stand strong to protect the sheep.
Did your reply in the other comment get deleted like mine?
Plenty of pastors can be both. Seems like you're saying pastors can't be nice guys and stand strong in their faith and theology.
@@hollylazzaro6518 No, don't read comments with such a biased and narrow thinking. What I am saying is that pastors need to be loving, but loving toward his flocks. That love extends to tenderness but also confrontational in fighting for the sheep of the Christ.
A father and mother can be show love and tenderness to their children, but when someone wants to harm them, they fight viciously because they love their children. It's the same concept. Christ fought viciously and vehemently with Jewish religious leaders. Paul called those who leading dogs and enemies.
Pastors bragging about being cordial and confrontational are not sheep dogs, but lap dog. Paul pleads with Ephesians elders to guard the sheep as he headed for Jerusalem to be persecuted there.
This American cordial and nice pastoral care is not biblical at all. Any congregation members looking for nice pastors are just fools inviting wolves among them.
Jesus was a nice guy.
@@Roca891 This is an oversimplification. Was he nice to Pharisees? The temple money lenders? Will he be nice when he comes to judge mankind? Jesus is the truest man to ever live, and by him we know that men are supposed to be humble and meek, yet courageous in the face of evil and intolerant of hypocrisy.
Random stranger: "excuse me, do you know where the restroom is?"
Pastor Matt: "here's my book, do you want me to sign it for you?"
?
@@kellydunn7113 he said he would have some of his books in his backpack at the upcoming event, so I was making a joke. The joke is formatted in gen z, my 9 year old would have laughed.
@@davewhite756 My apologies. I am not 9, I am 68 and I am not familiar with "gen z", I suppose I need to get out more.
All denominations are being winnowed. The PcA is mostly woke and won’t make it sadly long term. See what happened to Zach Garris for talking about basic history and the biblical position on slavery.
I am relatively new to the EPC (10 years) I pastored Southern Baptist churches for 18 years. I have Southern Baptist ordination credentials and seminary education. I departed the SBC for a few of reasons:1) I am thoroughly Reformed in my theology. 2) I am convinced Presbyterian polity is better that the SBC's and 3), it has significantly drifted to Wokeism (Marxism).
After listening to this video I sent it to my pastor and asked him to comment.
I used to condemn the Inquisition. After I studied the Church history and seeing what happened in the US, I understand why it started in the first place (although I still don't completely agree). As an Asian, American pastors are the most arrogant and self-absorbed know it all. Too many think they are great theologians instead of idiots who cannot understand the subtle and deep understanding of the historical Reformation confessions. When they understand something, instead of humbling themselves, they form new denominations, like EPC. Instead of joining either OPC or PCA, EPC went its own way.
@@thomasc9036 I will not dignify your statement with a response.
@@kellydunn7113 Hurts when people tell the truth about American pastors, eh? Only want respect and honor, but never the responsibility to protect the sheep.
@@thomasc9036 You bear false witness, sir. Your comments are presumptuous. You do not know me nor do you know my view.
@@kellydunn7113 The state of EPC says it all. Even after seeing so many denomination fall to liberalism and apostasy, you and other elders/pastors and letting it happen again.
Why are they focusing on racism and this other stuff instead of teaching Christians how to be in the time that we are in ? The world is changing, war is at the door and so is persecution. We are doing a huge disservice to our fellow believers by not showing them and teaching them how we are suppose to conduct ourselves. Whether thats to do with being enslaved, or having your property taken from you, there are so many things we need to be talking about to prepare us.
Because so many care about the world and not about Christ.
All these things can be done at the same time. It's the job of pastors and elders to shepherd the congregation through a myriad of issues. One does not exclude the other.
@@hollylazzaro6518 why does it seem like there's alot that gets left out? You're right they absolutely could tackle it all, but for some reason it seems like there's a big gap in teaching.
As a layperson who grew up in the EPC, I read the Pastoral Letter of Racial Lament and Hope. It is Marxism, but not the introduction of Marxism. Marxism has already infiltrated the EPC.
Rufus Smith is one of the signers of the letter and is also the lead pastor of the largest congregation in the EPC. In this article (1) Rufus Smith says, “spiritual reconciliation (harmony between God and humankind) must address racial inequity,” Although Rufus Smith believes in racial equity, the word “Equity” is found nowhere in the EPC’s Pastoral Letter of Racial Lament and Hope. If we must address racial inequity, why is that nowhere clearly enumerated in the letter?
I think that reason is just exactly what your friend said. It is Cultural Marxism wrapped up in Christianese. The word is not there, but the concept is. The reason the word is not there is because if we have been paying attention to the politics of the day we would know “Equity” is a Marxist buzzword. Equity is equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity. Basically no matter how the game is played, the score must be the same.
That is evident in this interview. (2)
What is worse, the current battle is not over how the gospel should be lived out, some endorsing social justice and some endorsing conservatism. This is a battle over the definition of the gospel.
Rufus smith defines the gospel as “preaching, teaching, and healing.” The healing is defined as “the mitigation of human pain, not the elimination of human pain, but the mitigation of human pain.”
He defines it that way in the interview and also in this “gospel” presentation. (3) “gospel” is in quotes because if you watch the sermon you will understand it is no gospel at all.
This is the tip of the iceberg. There are so many good people in the EPC, I love the EPC, but it is being infiltrated. Comment me if you want more info.
(1) epconnection.org/2019/04/22/hope-church-building-a-multiethnic-church-in-memphis
(2) m.th-cam.com/video/zhWJLTRR2tg/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUPUnVmdXMgc21pdGggZXBj
(3) m.th-cam.com/video/VfNZMPTf2Ig/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSUnVmdXMgc21pdGggZ29zcGVs
Can you link the video under (3) again? It says the video is no longer available.
I'm confused as to whay he means by mitigating human pain, unless he is talking about the outward social component of the gospel work that we join in. But that is not the gospel, thus I am confused.
@@tchoate14 m.th-cam.com/video/VfNZMPTf2Ig/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUSUnVmdXMgc21pdGggZ29zcGVs
@@tchoate14 your interpretation is correct. Mitigatinh human pain is nything we do to help people. We could feed the poor to mitigate human pain. That is a good thing to do, but not the gospel. They have to justify their social justice push, so they add social justice to the gospel.
@@tchoate14 did you see I fixed the link? It should work now.
@@tchoate14 if the link is not working, search Rufus Smith “an attractive gospel for the people”
Matthew, this is a very disappointing video. You have been poorly informed about what is going on in the EPC. Galatians 5 warns believers against having this kind of spirit. You cite “problems you have with this Pastoral Letter” without having read it. You speak to the challenge that one of our presbyteries is facing as they consider a church and a pastor totally incorrectly. We do have a theological and doctrinal position on this. You’re just poorly informed all around.
The title card on this video was clickbait. Please prayerfully consider what truly motivated you to do that. To be as charitable as possible, I am going to assume you meant no ill intent but took a half-baked batch of information from someone and put it out there without carefully considering the ramifications. As a result, you have sown strife, disunity, and dissension into your video and your promotion of it (your X post was very problematic, but thanks for taking it down). As a biblically informed pastor, you know that Galatians 5 warns us against what you have, I hope inadvertently, done here. Let us be the peacemakers that Jesus called us to be. Please don’t sow discord in a space where you don’t even reside. You’ve been ill-informed all around, and it clearly shows in this video.
For those of you EPC folks in this comment thread, I urge you to talk to your pastors and your presbyteries about the issues we are discussing at the upcoming GA. We will discuss them with honor and respect. Good, Christ-honoring decisions will be made after having been carefully considered. Don’t get your information from someone who isn’t even a member of our denomination and doesn't have all the information.
Matthew, once we have properly, in true Presbyterian form, let the procedural wheels spin at our GA, and we have discussed and prayed about how to handle our business, you are certainly welcome to respond to that if you feel you must from your perspective over there in another denomination. But to preemptively say all this was a really poor choice. Not Christ-honoring, not unity-promoting, just a bad choice. Please do better, brother.
To claim that a brother in Christ from another man invented denomination can't comment on anything happening within the global invisible church is asinine. Perhaps, you should prayerfully consider having a less emotional response to Matthew's thoughtful criticism. Even if you disagree with his position your attempt to disqualify his criticism is not consistent with how Christians ought to admonish one another.
I'm frankly shocked this video was released before actually reading up on these issues in greater detail...
Imagine: the body of Christ not only divided by 1000 denomination games like "catholic vs protestant" but now we add "racist and race sensitive" churches.
There's only one catholic church.
@@henrybayard6574 yaaawn.....
You have nothing to apologize for.
It's just sad that so many bring up the slavery issue over and over when all denominations have profusely apologized and repented of this sinful behavior in the past. It is so unchristian to keep on bringing up the same repented subject over and over to weapon against other Christians.
In a word- Pandering
Good to see this come across my feed, pastor Matt, been a while since I've heard you speak forthrightly.
Sad to hear that the EPC is struggling with similar infiltration attempts to the SBC, I'll be praying for their convictions to be resolved aligned with Christ.
And that's why trying to be race blind is why the Presbyterian Church skews heavily towards one demographic . Its outreach is horrible to other races. And this is an American problem not a cultural one. There are more Presbyterians in Mexico than there are in the United States but there's no way you would know that if you look at the demographics of Presbyterians in this country.
Panta ta ethne
Racism is a sin of the heart? What Scripture verse lists racism being a sin? The word was invented in the 20th century.
Why aren't the denominations looking more at unification
I personally believe OPC has the best theology
Well said. Churches need to remember ‘come OUT of the world and be ye separate’.
That unbiblical. Jesus himself said "“Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves." We need to be obedient and become smarter and discerning among wolves, not "come OUT of the world".
I'm a member of the EPC, and having read the letter, the outlook is not good. If the EPC keeps trending in the direction, it is trending in than my church might have enough reasons to switch to PCA.
Curious, have you read the latest draft? There was a good deal of input from presbyteries after the letter was shared with them. Many who previously had concerns have seen those concerns resolved in the latest draft. I would encourage you to read it.
@hollylazzaro6518 no I haven't yet. Praying that the EPC holds to the orthodox position.
I am part of the Christian reformed Church, otherwise known as the CRC. Basically the Dutch version of Presbyterianism. Our current Synod is discussing issues like same-sex marriage and LGBT. At least the EPC is not to that point yet. Interestingly, it seems as if the majority of the CRC is turning out to be more traditional on sexuality rather than more liberal like most mainline denominations.
Kind of proves Redeemed Zoomer's point. Even breakaways and offshoots will suffer the same result if if enough time passes.
I watched a video in which Klaus Schwab says that he has people (he and other very wealthy people who share his views) supported in all sectors of society; businessmen, pastors, priests, leaders in all sorts of business and organizations and institutions, teachers, professors, politicians, lobbyists, prosecutors, judges, etc. As far as I know, neither of these people are obliged to disclose all the money they receive, so they can be funded by special interest and we don't know, and Klaus Schwab gave us his hint.
We think that Marxist education and bad influence is all that it takes to drive a person to strongly push a liberal agenda even when facing strong backlash, but it is known that, contrary to the right, to conservatives, the left (liberals, progressists) tend to be more willing to do work voluntarily. Comparatively, liberals tend to be more willing to keep pushing their views upon receiving financial aid (because liberal views are hard to push into people). When that's not the case, there can be blackmailing, or a combination of both.
I'd suggest that church leaders and their direct aids (at least church leaders) were obliged to disclose everything they receive in help. Everything, exposing their bank statements in a regular way; what they spend their money on doesn't need to be disclosed. Or disclose what they receive if the origin and amount don't fulfill some requirements. I know it sounds like privacy invasion, but that's what the leftie billionaires use to their favor.
with EPC avoiding doctrinal teaching on the topic and considering Memorial becoming partnof EPC, i don't think they have set themselves up in the past or are oblivious now. I believe they know what they're doing. A mole to put it nicely is growing.
Attend a fairly large EPC church in SE michigan, and we (thankfully) voted last Tuesday both to leave the EPC and join the PCA. After watching EPC GA today, I am very thankful.
Brother Matt, I wholeheartedly agree with you that racism is a sin of the heart. Jesus said "He who hates his brother without a cause..." is an inference to that. It's important to look to the Lord Jesus Christ and ask Him to evaluate our hearts in matters of Christian love.
Yes, we need to be very careful how we use terms - "racism" , "social justice" etc and we also have to be very careful addressing current events and social issues - these terms and events have layers to them and the enemy will always seek to cause confusion and discord by distorting the truth on these issues and divide us. We need to elevate the glory of Christ and what Christ has accomplished for our sinful "race" - humanity. Christ makes us one with Him, and He makes us one with one another, and we need to understand that and we need to demonstrate that to the world. Our unity is based first and foremost upon Christ and how Christ views us - not how we view one another.
I think one of the worst mistakes we made in regard to Greg Johnson is letting him leave in tact. If we would have acted more firmly with him, fewer denominations would be willing to extend the right hand of fellowship to a man that, as you said, hurt us legitimately.
As a member of the Canadian Reformed churches. I can tell you that it as a denomination doesn't make blanket policy statements about politics or political issues or even social issues. The word alone. No statements to bind the conscience.
Thank you so much for making this video. Was so excited you got to see Rosaria as well! Keep the faith brother, you are a blessing!
The most segregated day on America is Sunday morning.
Thank you so much for speaking up on these matters!
The wound will never heal , because we keep picking the scrap
Satan is alive and well and continues to work.
This boils down to white racism and the problem is all races have their racial problems. Let's learn to forgive one another and seek to be more Christ like.
"White Racism"? I am so tired of hearing about "White Racism". As if of all the peoples in this world only white people are racist. I have been around for 68 years and some of the most blatant, outspoken, ugly racists I have ever had the displeasure of encountering were NOT white.!
I sat in front of Matthew and didn't get a book! Just kidding - it was good to meet you in person.
Send me your address privately and I will hook you up my man!
Thanks Matthew! Spot on brother
I Attend and EPC right now and enjoy it, but these issues are huge, makes me want to head to a reformed Baptist church or an OPC church both of which are not close to me . Blessed God and let us pray for the body of Christ!
Talk to your pastor about this, don't take this video as truth. It's just not. See my longer comment below.
Thank you , my pastor has already laid out the issues at hand at is optimistic going into GA.
I am not in favour of non denominational churches. But I have to wonder when I see case after case of this liberal infection: How did denominations get in this bad of shape? Is it from even having all of these general conferences and general assemblies? Maybe we should all take the Scripture and Confessions as we have them and drop the GC and GAs. How does truth continue to be up for debate year after year after year?
As an attender of a non-denom church, it's just as infiltrated. The issue is culture and complacency, toxic winsomness and managerialism. Denominations simply get to show it off at a larger scale.
Non denom is poison. It leads to every church having its own pope
I'm glad you're in the PCA now.
Thank you so much! Me too!
What is the Revoice controversy? Side B? What do these things mean?
"Side A" is a practicing homosexual, "Side B" is a celibate homosexual. Revoice was a conference in 2018 celebrating "Side B" homosexuality, held at the church in question.
I have my own sins to deal with besides I was never a part of slavery so I won’t be held responsible for someone else’s sins. Besides, I have never met anyone who was an ACTUAL slave; someone who was the legal property of another person. Racial reconciliation goes both ways.
Pride is a sin. GOD Bless
I think the subject of race needs to be talked about. I think we also need to be careful about telling black Christian’s how to express themselves.
Any discussion of race just ends up being anti white.
...how many times do we need to talk about it? I say this as an Asian descent. Since the 70s, every denominations whether they were guilty or not profusely repented and apologized for the past slavery. All denominations have written papers with the repentance multiple times.
Let's face the truth. American Blacks were slaves in Africa. White people didn't capture them, but they were made slaves by other Africans and sold them to Whites for alcohol and other trivial things. They would have lived and died as slaves including their descendants. It was Whites who put a stop to the slavery... including ASIA, and MIDDLE EAST.
Frankly, Blacks should be thanking white Christians for their efforts in freeing slaves globally.
PS: African countries still whining about colonization is still the poorest countries in the world. Do you see Asian countries whining about colonization? They accepted and moved on... learning the technology and many great teachings. Look at China, Japan, Korea... matching and exceeding European nations in wealth. Whining and being ungrateful will never get you anywhere and that's the TRUTH.
@@thomasc9036 this is why. Because people like you are wholly uneducated about the complexities of Africa and slavery.
It has been talked about--at great length. When is it enough?
@@danbrown586 when racism doesn’t exist anymore.