So true... I can't stand when hosts pointlessly interrupt the guests. Unless there is a lull or you're trying to hit specific topics and keep things on track, you're doing your job by not doing anything.
yeah totally agree. And Fidas is good he really plays his part of a ingranat pupil. the part without his question was best. 1 or two is good here and there but not to many is best
Beautiful! I would just like to compliment Mr. Koch on changing his views so honestly and openly. Admitting one was wrong is the greatest sign of intellectual honesty. We are living in exciting times.
Bernardo Kastrup is Like a Samurai amongst scientist, philosophers (or his peers). He fights honorably for his Philosophy. I really respect his vigorousness and the code by which he operates. I just can’t dislike him. Koch seems to fight with his own worldview the most but tries to remain open minded which is really enjoyable.
Christof Koch is fantastic in this. As someone who was once a physicalist you can see how he’s contending with these ideas. That he has understood them and is seeking Bernado to explain it to others in a way which has helped Cristoff come to understand them
It's really unfortunate that materialism/physicalism has taken over the modern mind, including outside academia (but also inside academia of course). Being an intelligent being is about dealing with ideas in a sophisticated manner, that includes being able to step back and accept that not everything can be or will be empirically proven. If one can "believe" in M-theory, they certainly can believe in idealism. Empiricism's great flaw is that it denies the existence of the conscious observer from the experiment.
I like how Graham Hancock says that any president should take at least 10 ayahuasca trips. Same happened here. Psychedelics uncovering the conscious nature of reality to a great mind
@@access5870 M theory is not a good example of empiricism, because it is a "theory" that has no empirical or experimental foundation. It is virtually pure theoretical speculation. To even call it a "theory" in the conventional scientific sense of the word is questionable. A leap of faith is required to believe it, and that includes leaping right over the scientific method, from which it has no direct support.
I was watching this last night, thinking of the implications of 17 quantum fields with energy waves oscillating,😅 cresting to "diamonds, creating our subjective feeling of materiality and suddenly have become disoriented, the whole world seemed 10:05 immaterial, abstract. I felt like I was on pscilocybin again for a few moments.
What Bernardo discusses at approximately 49 minutes in, reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's story. She had a hemorrhagic stroke in the left hemisphere of her brain, losing most of the functions that enable us to function as individuals. However, she said she experienced herself as the whole of reality, and felt a sense of absolute bliss and peace. That perception faded as therapy enabled her to regain most of the functions that were lost and she was able to perceive and function as she had before the stroke. The memory of the experience, however, remained to reassure her of a deeper reality and identity that was greater than her individual experience..
When I had NDE, I was becoming the walls I was in, and the person I hate so much was part of me. It was ridiculous to take revenge on yourself. But after I recovered, to this day, I doubt that. And can't respect blind believers. I can't make sense of it. And I still hate that person very deeply , wishing all the worst there is
Man, I really love these two minds. When I first discovered Bernardo I loved him right away. When I found Christof, I didn’t want to like him but the more I listened to him the more I couldn’t help but love him. Now the two joined together and that little bit of tension between them feels just right. This is so good- thank you Fidias!!
Yeah, funny because I find myself more on Koch’s end now as well. I don’t agree with lots of Kastrups ideas for instance that the universe at large is “less conscious” than we are- why wouldn’t it be so conscious that we could never understand… I wouldn’t put our consciousness over and above a mind at large
@@starxcrossed I've heard Bernardo in some podcasts over the years suggesting that, even if mind at large is not metacognitive (not self-reflective), it probably is still cognitively superior and richer than our limited "monkey minds." So there's a difference between complexity and metacognition. What I personally think is that all aspects of nature are a form of self-reflection at many different levels, and what we usually refer to as "meta-conscious" is just the layer where our thinking mind resides, which is just the top layer of abstraction. So I'd agree that "thinking" is something that only we humans (and a few other animals) do, but the thinking is a very little and very new tool which still needs a lot of development in nature.
Fantastic dialogue, Fidias! Hopefully this isn’t the last time we see Bernardo and Christof, such a delightful conversation, filled with empathy, understanding and open-mindedness but nevertheless held together with strong commitments to rationality, naturalism and rigour on both sides, bravo!
One of the most interesting aspects of this conversation for me is not being clear when Koch is playing the devil's advocate and when he is genuinely bewildered by Kastrup's core model. It's really fun to see this play out. At times, Bernardo claims that Koch is playfully pretending to not understand. But often it seems that Koch can't imagine Kastrup's view without presupposing a substrate that isn't mental. Wonderful chat so far :) Ah, at 36:04 we have a moment where you can see Koch begin to grasp Bernardo's point and then quickly slip back to needing the brain to be differentiated from experience. At 37:30 Koch slips back into needing the brain to be distinct from experience again. It's very fun watching Bernardo work to keep Koch grasping Bernardo's model. It is almost like Bernardo doesn't see that this is the point of slippage between them. Because just after 37:35 Bernardo fails to point out that Koch is once again assuming a brain is a non-mental object/process. At 46:38 , Kock again seems to think that Bernardo is claiming that a brain is a real object. Seems like at 54:34 Kock is maybe starting to get into the habit of seeing how Kastrup's model considers neurons and brains as images rather than physical substraits. 56:34: There we go! :)
that's not what's happening here. koch is helping bernardo formulate and clarify. he apparently has had a change of mind and that's the most interesting thing going on here. i'd like to know what exactly changed his mind and if it had anything to do with that beach story in brazil - 1:11:00 koch has previously really struggled to understand kastrup, he does understand now but he's playing the devil's advocate with his former world view, and doing him a favour with that. koch wants to be convinced, his gut instinct is that idealism is correct. i think it's just shocking and emotionally difficult for him, and he has to square it all with science as he knows it. what we see here is great, koch lets bernardo rise to the occasion and shine. a great guest.
@@notexactlyrocketscience I slightly disagree. It is clear that he is doing some work to let Bernardo describe general aspects of idealism. Yes. But it is equally clear that Koch is often assuming that when Bernardo says brain that he means an actual object that plays a role in generating consciousness. So I think both are true. It was very fun seeing that last moment where Koch corrected himself before Bernardo jumped in to say it.
it seems to me that koch really is playing the devil's advocate there. he is saying what he expects the opposition would say, in order to let bernardo refute it cleanly. @@rooruffneck
@@notexactlyrocketscience Maybe. There are a number of times that he doesn't seem to be pretending. But we won't ever really know! Like, at 37:30. And, for me, the moment that he says it and then corrects himself, near the end, reveals that it is just starting to sink in. And, he admits that he is still working hard to really grasp it. But, anyway, they were wonderful together.
@@rooruffneckright. For example, he says magnetism is more physical than chemicals. Doesn’t even make sense under physicalism… so, he’s clearly a bit confused still about idealism/not incorporating its language/conceptions
The fact a stalwart of physicalism in Chris Koch is starting to have cracks in his worldview is fascinating. It suggests to me we are going to see a big shift in the paradigm eventually toward idealism
i think is at least 10-15 years that there are some cracks ... recent books/interviews from top scientists reveal that the big materialist wave of end of 90'sstart of 2000s is over.
I think for that we need a sort of a political shift. It is hard to push these ideas without actually giving the giving the experience. Psychedelics should be legalised in order for idealism to come forth, culturally. You see how hard it is to argue with materialists? The dyed in the wool materialists will never buy anything remotely close to idealism. So biased, so stigmatised. Psychedelics can open them up.
It is just beautiful to see a top scientist actually experience a higher consciousness and not just talk conceptually about it. Bernardo is so brave to take the leap from academia to the practical world and now other scientists are realizing that you have to experience it. I have been saying that all over this videos on youtube. These great minds have to get together. Although we have wars going on on the other hand we seem to be seen an awakening from top academics that could change the course of humanity. It brings a big smile to my face when I see these guys been stunned and having the same questions that I had after an ayahuasca experience.
I have listened to a number of different podcasts with Bernardo and Koch together. This was by far the most productive, congenial, and interesting one. It's great to hear these two converging. I'm especially surprised to find out Koch has had powerful psychedelic experiences which have opened him up to the primary of consciousness and the virtues of idealism. I'd like to hear more about Bernardo's growing appreciation of information theory.
Thank you so much for bringing these two brilliant minds together and for not derailing their exchanges with intrusions into their conversation. Absolutely brilliant 👍
(Also, lots of respect to Christof Koch for actually engaging deeply with these strange ideas without resorting to ridicule or simply dismissing them. I’ve been watching him for years and years on shows like Closer To Truth and I honestly didn’t think I would see this happen. I’m officially delighted! 😄🙌🏻)
I sympathise with Bernardo with his cat. I had to drive through chock full traffic to the vets with my do Angus with a damaged spine. He was on the back seat having shocking pains in his spine. I was crying and pinching myself hard just for relief. He had to be euthanised after they gave him a powerful pain killer which made him all sleepy and tranquil. They said his spine had a fracture which was to dangerous to repair. I lost him only age 5 yrs old and he was my best friend. Everywhere I went, he was with me. It was harrowing and I couldn't get over it until someone said to me go and get another dog from the rescue centre. I did and and after two weeks of them certifying me as a good candidate ect I brought home a Saluki cross. She instantly came to life and was playing with toys and treats hidden in her basket. Don't do what I did and agonise over a loss for 7 months, just go and give a new home to an animal of your choice.
I've been looking for a conversation between Bernardo Kastrup and...Christof Koch! Couldn't have picked a more perfect interlocutor. His questions are brilliant.
I subscribed. Fantastic exchange. I’m a Kastrup groupie, and find this interview his best. Koch is new to me. He is most interesting. Together they have given me a clear path. I understand work I must do. It will be exciting. It will be fun. At 75, it’s time that I put a bow on this most wonderful experience; this thing called life. The best to you.
At 1hr 5 minutes Bernardo says, "You had an ecstatic experience and that is coloring your expectation". Then he begins to talk about battling a demon for 100,000 years. That is also coloring his expectation as well. I really hope Bernardo takes some time to dive deep and learn about Indian philosophical schools of thought. He will gain so much insight from Nyaya, Sankhya, Patanjali Yoga, Advaita Vedanta etc along with the Tantric traditions. So much richness there.
wow what a talk people are finally seeing that we need to mix science with metaphysics to overstand consciousness! the world of the not physical is a real one! this is how debate is done at the highest Level! beautiful to see in this dull age of people staring at smart phones! the way he sets up the guy to explain his theory, without telling the listener and we only know because he was so gracious to acknowledge that was what he was doing. faith in humanity restored! Thankyou to all of you SUBCRIBED!
can anyone pass this onto Bernardo Kastrup. thanks you . Dear Bernardo, Immersing myself in your literary universe and auditory odysseys has been akin to navigating through an expansive ocean, where each book and interview is a captivating wave. Among these, my recent voyage through your dialogue with Kristoph Koch stood out as a remarkable endeavor. Like skilled sailors at the helm of their ships, you both navigated the tumultuous seas of cognitive frontiers, endeavoring to bridge disparate islands of thought. In this intellectual journey, you nearly wove a seamless whole save for a single thread that compelled me to reach out. This thread pertains to our shared view on the nature of the Mind at Large (MAL) - an entity void of consciousness and self-reflection. Yet, allow me to guide you through a hidden estuary, a secret passageway that meanders from our conscious mind to intertwine with the MAL. Imagine this pathway as a river that, in its pursuit, becomes one with the ocean, where the waters of individual perception merge with the vastness of MAL. Here, in this confluence, a loop is born, thriving on the energy of self-reflection - not ours, but that of the MAL itself. Drawn irresistibly to this loop, the MAL explores patterns within reality, creating a symphony of union. In this spirit, I leave you with the whispers of a poem by the 12th-century Andalusian mystic, Ibn Arabi, a melody that has resonated deeply within me. May it serve as a key to unlock an emotional and intellectual union on your journey. th-cam.com/video/0296u91fsmo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=O-XirBMhuESayqTh Your explorations have been a beacon of inspiration, illuminating my quest for understanding. It is with a heart full of gratitude that I share this crack in my intellectual armor, hoping it may enrich your journey as much as your words have enriched mine. With warm regards and best wishes for the paths ahead. Hasan Asif M.D
Bernardo is very polite even when someone has a different approach/opinion.What he has an issue with is controlling his emotions when someone tries to 'attack' him but i feel he is avoiding that kind of debates these days(and he does well).For example Sabine.
Christof Koch, Thank you for the positive inspirational words for the youth of the world. I do so wish main stream media were more accountable for what they push into the minds of the society they inhabit and will leave to the next generation. Be Blessed
What a fabulous conversation! I talk with my old best tripping friend on similar lines but these guys have so many more valuable references to highlight their argument. Wonderful😊
I loved the reference to Wagner's Tristan und Isolde which of course was partly inspired by reading Schopenhauer. It is about mystical experience: Isolde's love-death (liebestod) at the end is really a transfiguration (verklärung) in which all desire is either transcended or perfectly fulfilled.
one of the best discussions on the topic. These are really two great mind coming to a potential new way of looking at reality without throwing the science out and without being physicalist.
Fidias, I love that you’re exploring consciousness! It’s so interesting and confusing, and I think you’re going to bring a lot of good to the world by investigating it and bringing together minds to discuss these issues
I LOVED this discussion. Finally it’s a real clash of worldviews, and it’s often only in such clashes that something new and potentially true has the exciting possibility of emerging. Thank you so much for this. 🙏🏻
The GRACE training offered by Upaya Zen Center addresses "runaway empathy" (offered March 2024 online and September 2024 in person). This training draws on neuroscience, social psychology, ethics, and contemplative perspectives to foster compassion and resilience. It teaches how to avoid burning out in the face of suffering.
This was incredible. Thank you all, Koch incredible smart he got the best out of Bernardo with his very smartly placed "challenges". I think that we got the best explanation of Bernardos worldview right here.
This is the best podcast I have ever listened to. Why? Because Bernardo is effectively being forced /encouraged to explain and justify his theory. Given all the evidence from science, philosophy and para psychology It seems very unlikely idealism is wrong and the issue remaining will be for those of us in the idealistic camp what is the exact nature of such. Broadly IMO Bernardo is very close and how in hells name can we expect better, but we do and must pursue this philosophy. There is still a coherent version of God or Gods or even conscious agents needed. Plurality seems absurd so a monotheistic holistic intelligence has my money.......God.
Μπράβο ρε φίλε, πολύ όμορφο βίντεο. Συγχαρητήρια για την αυθεντικότητα σου σαν άνθρωπος και την ειλικρινή επιθυμία σου να μάθεις νέα πράγματα και να βελτιωθείς. Ο Bernardo αγαπά ανθρώπους αυθεντικούς σαν εσένα. Μόνο και μόνο που σε κάλεσε σπίτι του για να κάνεις αυτό το podcast λέει πολλά! Σου έυχομαι ότι καλύτερο με τα κανάλια σου. Συνέχισε έτσι! Από ένα συμπατριώτη σου που λατρεύει την δουλειά του Bernardo.
The Cat's Meow ! TBH, I wasn't expecting CK too be so open to having alternative views "on the table". In their last public discussion he seemed rather skeptical, which any good scientist/philosopher/big thinker ought to be. There is little question that psychedelics have been useful/influential in that regard. Most people tend to just remain stuck in their ways, especially after a certain age. Which is a main reason why the current mainstream position persists. & its outright pathological more than anything else IMHO. Even a show like closer to truth is barely willing to closely examine ANY form of idealism with a 10 foot pole. They'll very occasionally brush against it in passing yet even entertain theology ad nauseum mind you. Behaviorism, eliminativism & functionalism & such have been among our darkest times in recent science/academia/thinking. & entire generations have been affected by it, almost as if such notions(alt views) have been clearly debunked long ago. BTW CK & Walter Lewin use the same fashion designer.🤣
Referencing studies of precognition like effects (Electrophysiology of Intuition: Pre-stimulus Responses in Group and Individual Participants Using a Roulette Paradigm) I think this helps support the argument they make 25:30 about mental states of physical matter and it's interactions with a persons mental state and it's ability to react before an image is physically shown. This leans towards the mental/consciousness is fundamental to the physical world.
I really really loved this a lot. True scientists. This was so heartfelt my mirror neurons activated. One of the best interview / "debate" from the topic.. live concept worked very well. ❤
Like Koch, I also want to "figure it out" in my lifetime. As I sat here, eating a banana, occasionally scratching, I thought to myself; if these two intellectual powerhouses can't figure it out then I may need to adjust my expectations.
Wow! Simply brilliant! This talk is so close to what is being said in the Upanishads and Advaita Vedanta of the old Indian philosophy. Anima Mundi is equivalent to the Atman which realizes itself as the ultimate reality (Brahman) when all Ego is dissolved. To achieve this, the Upanishads recommend a life-long journey of Self inquiry. In that journey, you discard all false conditioning (Ego) to realize that you are the Brahman (pure consciousness or pure Awareness). One way to dissolve Ego is to act wholeheartedly, without any desire, motive, or attachment to the task being performed; such an act defines karma. Karma is not something you accumulate in life. I wonder if Bernardo studied this Indian philosophy.
Meta cognition - self awareness - is a property of base consciousness. In other words awareness knows that it’s aware. In the same way that you know you’re aware. Of course it’s easy to overlook it because we are drawn into the drama of the world.
This is the first time professor Christof touched my heart while he was describing about his life period left and average death age and his ambitions to achieve in his remaining life. Otherwise I always got impressions that he is just mechanical kind of intellectual of realistic nature. May God prolong his life, if there is anyone otherwise he himself is a doctor lol. Regards.
great discussion! well done fidias. it's good to let people talk it out. one note about the simulation argument: the "simulation" of a kidney would be a dialysis machine, not a computer program
Koch mentioned his new book about to be published but here he is moving more towards Bernardo's way of thinking. Does this mean his new book isn't worth buying😮
Great interview ,I love it thank you very much ,I'm agreed with BERNARDO, consciousness is fundamental, reality is just an illusion, but still a big mystery because everything look real, but reality is not as it seems, also we don't die, because ours body is just an avatar, we live in a cosmic hologram, we are the universe experience itself.
The biggest reason for meaningless that I used to feel from physicalism is just that what I am (and everyone is) didn't _really exist_. It's demoralizing to what you experience ifn't really any part of the world, but what you are is a bunch of physical stuff moving automatically. Nothing else. And it will all come to a meaningless end at the heat death of the universe. With idealism what you are (your moment to moment experiences) really exists. You - what you really are and can identify with - are here in the world, and you participate in the world. As a side benefit (or nightmare), you can't be sure of what there is beyond space and time, if anything - and how that might relate to what you are really made of.
An excellent exchange on the theme of consciousness. I can't resist suggesting to Fidias Podcast an interview with Dr. Sylvie Déthiollaz and psychotherapist Claude Charles Fourrier about their book "ConneXions" (Etude sur les contacts avec l'invisible), which would be a wonderful complement to this enthusiastic podcast. "Connexions" delves into the realms of the unseen, exploring the intricate tapestry of human interactions with the invisible.
I so identify with Bernardo, even though I have half his mental capacity…but my empathy with the suffering I see in the world, and in my own life, can consume me. And my preoccupation with the capacity of people to inflict cruelty on others…I can’t digest this awareness.
It's a fine line between pleasure and pain You've done it once you can do it again Whatever you've done don't try to explain It's a fine, fine line between pleasure and pain....
1:05:09 Bernard explain why he had a bad trip 😅, he couldn't let it go, his ego fight to not dissolve... What make sense given how much left hemisphere way of thinking he is. I understand that we want to create a theory or a map of reality, but logic is just one way to explore, experience and make sense of the totality. If logic can prove itself limited and science never claimed to be ilimitated and the only human faculty to experience reality, why we are so fixated on it?
I just love how Koch at 1:08:30 says: "you meet god, and then you have to do laundry the next day". I would add "You meet god and realize that you are it".
If we think of every conscious agent as a unique point of view within Universal Mind, then it becomes easier to see that *some* other conscious agents will look more conscious to our limited point of view than other conscious agents. So whether they are equally conscious to us or not, we are not able to get a good view of their subjectivity.
This interview is absolutely fascinating….unfortunately, there are ads literally every five minutes throughout the conversation. I get that you have to make money, but this frequency of ads makes the content unwatchable.
Christof says he doesnt fear immortality after this body drops, but imagine being stuck in one of those nightmares when you wake up sweating, you remember the nightmare but you can brush it off and go about your day, carefree. Now imagine not having a body to wake up in, so the nightmare keeps going. Maybe this is what Hell is? Personally we should take Pascals wager seriously and act nice to one another, just in case we find ourselves wrestling with demons for eons😮
Agreed. Many people think fear of immortality doesn't make sense, and must therefore be the fear of oblivion hiding behind a complicated facade. The idea of a just God is the only thing that makes immortality palatable to me. The idea that one could be trapped in a meaningless accident that is painful and never ends is too horrible to imagine. Even a simple pain like stubbing your toe, feeling lonely, or having a drop of water splash you on the forehead becomes unbearable with infinite repetition. It awakens my faith in God.
Fidias, I really applaud you for not interfering in the discussion of these two great minds. Thank you
LOL
So true... I can't stand when hosts pointlessly interrupt the guests. Unless there is a lull or you're trying to hit specific topics and keep things on track, you're doing your job by not doing anything.
yeah totally agree. And Fidas is good he really plays his part of a ingranat pupil. the part without his question was best. 1 or two is good here and there but not to many is best
@fahad 56297 Kind of accidental brilliance !
Beautiful! I would just like to compliment Mr. Koch on changing his views so honestly and openly. Admitting one was wrong is the greatest sign of intellectual honesty. We are living in exciting times.
Bernardo Kastrup is Like a Samurai amongst scientist, philosophers (or his peers). He fights honorably for his Philosophy. I really respect his vigorousness and the code by which he operates.
I just can’t dislike him. Koch seems to fight with his own worldview the most but tries to remain open minded which is really enjoyable.
Came for Bernardo and stayed to listen to Koch. Never heard from him. Seems like a genuine seeker.
Christof Koch is fantastic in this. As someone who was once a physicalist you can see how he’s contending with these ideas. That he has understood them and is seeking Bernado to explain it to others in a way which has helped Cristoff come to understand them
It's really unfortunate that materialism/physicalism has taken over the modern mind, including outside academia (but also inside academia of course). Being an intelligent being is about dealing with ideas in a sophisticated manner, that includes being able to step back and accept that not everything can be or will be empirically proven. If one can "believe" in M-theory, they certainly can believe in idealism. Empiricism's great flaw is that it denies the existence of the conscious observer from the experiment.
I agree Christof was great. I will definitely be checking out his new book.
I like how Graham Hancock says that any president should take at least 10 ayahuasca trips. Same happened here. Psychedelics uncovering the conscious nature of reality to a great mind
@@access5870 M theory is not a good example of empiricism, because it is a "theory" that has no empirical or experimental foundation. It is virtually pure theoretical speculation. To even call it a "theory" in the conventional scientific sense of the word is questionable. A leap of faith is required to believe it, and that includes leaping right over the scientific method, from which it has no direct support.
Wow, Christof drew some interesting explanations out of Bernardo that I haven’t heard before. Brilliant questioning. Props to both of you.
I was watching this last night, thinking of the implications of 17 quantum fields with energy waves oscillating,😅 cresting to "diamonds, creating our subjective feeling of materiality and suddenly have become disoriented, the whole world seemed 10:05 immaterial, abstract. I felt like I was on pscilocybin again for a few moments.
What Bernardo discusses at approximately 49 minutes in, reminds me of Jill Bolte Taylor's story. She had a hemorrhagic stroke in the left hemisphere of her brain, losing most of the functions that enable us to function as individuals. However, she said she experienced herself as the whole of reality, and felt a sense of absolute bliss and peace. That perception faded as therapy enabled her to regain most of the functions that were lost and she was able to perceive and function as she had before the stroke. The memory of the experience, however, remained to reassure her of a deeper reality and identity that was greater than her individual experience..
I need to read up on that. Thank you.
Read her book and heard her interview with oprah. Helped me stop searching for god etc. Im a happy atheist now.
When I had NDE, I was becoming the walls I was in, and the person I hate so much was part of me. It was ridiculous to take revenge on yourself. But after I recovered, to this day, I doubt that. And can't respect blind believers. I can't make sense of it. And I still hate that person very deeply , wishing all the worst there is
Man, I really love these two minds. When I first discovered Bernardo I loved him right away. When I found Christof, I didn’t want to like him but the more I listened to him the more I couldn’t help but love him. Now the two joined together and that little bit of tension between them feels just right. This is so good- thank you Fidias!!
To me, the opposite experience was true. A nice dialogue all the same & I understand BK better, even though I still don’t fully agree.
Yeah, funny because I find myself more on Koch’s end now as well. I don’t agree with lots of Kastrups ideas for instance that the universe at large is “less conscious” than we are- why wouldn’t it be so conscious that we could never understand… I wouldn’t put our consciousness over and above a mind at large
@@starxcrossed I've heard Bernardo in some podcasts over the years suggesting that, even if mind at large is not metacognitive (not self-reflective), it probably is still cognitively superior and richer than our limited "monkey minds." So there's a difference between complexity and metacognition.
What I personally think is that all aspects of nature are a form of self-reflection at many different levels, and what we usually refer to as "meta-conscious" is just the layer where our thinking mind resides, which is just the top layer of abstraction. So I'd agree that "thinking" is something that only we humans (and a few other animals) do, but the thinking is a very little and very new tool which still needs a lot of development in nature.
What a wonderful discussion, I wish it could have been 10 hours long. One of the best things I've seen this year.
Fantastic dialogue, Fidias! Hopefully this isn’t the last time we see Bernardo and Christof, such a delightful conversation, filled with empathy, understanding and open-mindedness but nevertheless held together with strong commitments to rationality, naturalism and rigour on both sides, bravo!
One of the most interesting aspects of this conversation for me is not being clear when Koch is playing the devil's advocate and when he is genuinely bewildered by Kastrup's core model. It's really fun to see this play out. At times, Bernardo claims that Koch is playfully pretending to not understand. But often it seems that Koch can't imagine Kastrup's view without presupposing a substrate that isn't mental. Wonderful chat so far :)
Ah, at 36:04 we have a moment where you can see Koch begin to grasp Bernardo's point and then quickly slip back to needing the brain to be differentiated from experience.
At 37:30 Koch slips back into needing the brain to be distinct from experience again. It's very fun watching Bernardo work to keep Koch grasping Bernardo's model.
It is almost like Bernardo doesn't see that this is the point of slippage between them. Because just after 37:35 Bernardo fails to point out that Koch is once again assuming a brain is a non-mental object/process.
At 46:38 , Kock again seems to think that Bernardo is claiming that a brain is a real object.
Seems like at 54:34 Kock is maybe starting to get into the habit of seeing how Kastrup's model considers neurons and brains as images rather than physical substraits.
56:34: There we go! :)
that's not what's happening here. koch is helping bernardo formulate and clarify. he apparently has had a change of mind and that's the most interesting thing going on here. i'd like to know what exactly changed his mind and if it had anything to do with that beach story in brazil - 1:11:00
koch has previously really struggled to understand kastrup, he does understand now but he's playing the devil's advocate with his former world view, and doing him a favour with that. koch wants to be convinced, his gut instinct is that idealism is correct. i think it's just shocking and emotionally difficult for him, and he has to square it all with science as he knows it. what we see here is great, koch lets bernardo rise to the occasion and shine. a great guest.
@@notexactlyrocketscience
I slightly disagree. It is clear that he is doing some work to let Bernardo describe general aspects of idealism. Yes. But it is equally clear that Koch is often assuming that when Bernardo says brain that he means an actual object that plays a role in generating consciousness. So I think both are true. It was very fun seeing that last moment where Koch corrected himself before Bernardo jumped in to say it.
it seems to me that koch really is playing the devil's advocate there. he is saying what he expects the opposition would say, in order to let bernardo refute it cleanly. @@rooruffneck
@@notexactlyrocketscience
Maybe. There are a number of times that he doesn't seem to be pretending. But we won't ever really know! Like, at 37:30. And, for me, the moment that he says it and then corrects himself, near the end, reveals that it is just starting to sink in. And, he admits that he is still working hard to really grasp it. But, anyway, they were wonderful together.
@@rooruffneckright. For example, he says magnetism is more physical than chemicals. Doesn’t even make sense under physicalism… so, he’s clearly a bit confused still about idealism/not incorporating its language/conceptions
The fact a stalwart of physicalism in Chris Koch is starting to have cracks in his worldview is fascinating. It suggests to me we are going to see a big shift in the paradigm eventually toward idealism
i think is at least 10-15 years that there are some cracks ... recent books/interviews from top scientists reveal that the big materialist wave of end of 90'sstart of 2000s is over.
I think substance dualism.
@@tim59ismat first yes but I think people will figure that problem out quickly
@@oopleboo3067 Figure it out ?
I think for that we need a sort of a political shift. It is hard to push these ideas without actually giving the giving the experience. Psychedelics should be legalised in order for idealism to come forth, culturally. You see how hard it is to argue with materialists? The dyed in the wool materialists will never buy anything remotely close to idealism. So biased, so stigmatised. Psychedelics can open them up.
It is just beautiful to see a top scientist actually experience a higher consciousness and not just talk conceptually about it. Bernardo is so brave to take the leap from academia to the practical world and now other scientists are realizing that you have to experience it. I have been saying that all over this videos on youtube. These great minds have to get together. Although we have wars going on on the other hand we seem to be seen an awakening from top academics that could change the course of humanity. It brings a big smile to my face when I see these guys been stunned and having the same questions that I had after an ayahuasca experience.
I have listened to a number of different podcasts with Bernardo and Koch together. This was by far the most productive, congenial, and interesting one. It's great to hear these two converging. I'm especially surprised to find out Koch has had powerful psychedelic experiences which have opened him up to the primary of consciousness and the virtues of idealism. I'd like to hear more about Bernardo's growing appreciation of information theory.
Thank you so much for bringing these two brilliant minds together and for not derailing their exchanges with intrusions into their conversation. Absolutely brilliant 👍
(Also, lots of respect to Christof Koch for actually engaging deeply with these strange ideas without resorting to ridicule or simply dismissing them.
I’ve been watching him for years and years on shows like Closer To Truth and I honestly didn’t think I would see this happen. I’m officially delighted! 😄🙌🏻)
I can identify with Bernardo with his Gaza example. It's difficult not to be deeply affected by so much suffering. It hurts to look away.
Yes it hurts to look at it… and it hurts to look away!
What a great line “it hurts to look away“. Did you mean it as I understood it?
Science and common man including Muslims has nothing to do with politics and we are all human beings including Jews. Regards
Minute?
...intense life, Prof Christopher Kock! We can only feel empathy. Thanks for sharing personal issues and your science.
What a wonderful and insightful conversation. Thanks to you all ❤
This is a wonderful conversation everyone here.
I sympathise with Bernardo with his cat. I had to drive through chock full traffic to the vets with my do Angus with a damaged spine. He was on the back seat having shocking pains in his spine. I was crying and pinching myself hard just for relief. He had to be euthanised after they gave him a powerful pain killer which made him all sleepy and tranquil. They said his spine had a fracture which was to dangerous to repair. I lost him only age 5 yrs old and he was my best friend. Everywhere I went, he was with me.
It was harrowing and I couldn't get over it until someone said to me go and get another dog from the rescue centre. I did and and after two weeks of them certifying me as a good candidate ect I brought home a Saluki cross. She instantly came to life and was playing with toys and treats hidden in her basket. Don't do what I did and agonise over a loss for 7 months, just go and give a new home to an animal of your choice.
great conversation! i'd wager that spending a couple days getting to know one another paid off tremendously in this interview. thank you
I've been looking for a conversation between Bernardo Kastrup and...Christof Koch! Couldn't have picked a more perfect interlocutor. His questions are brilliant.
I subscribed. Fantastic exchange. I’m a Kastrup groupie, and find this interview his best. Koch is new to me. He is most interesting. Together they have given me a clear path. I understand work I must do. It will be exciting. It will be fun. At 75, it’s time that I put a bow on this most wonderful experience; this thing called life. The best to you.
That is beautiful! What will you do?
At 1hr 5 minutes Bernardo says, "You had an ecstatic experience and that is coloring your expectation". Then he begins to talk about battling a demon for 100,000 years. That is also coloring his expectation as well. I really hope Bernardo takes some time to dive deep and learn about Indian philosophical schools of thought. He will gain so much insight from Nyaya, Sankhya, Patanjali Yoga, Advaita Vedanta etc along with the Tantric traditions. So much richness there.
Glad BK is just giving an opinion like all philosophers.
wow what a talk people are finally seeing that we need to mix science with metaphysics to overstand consciousness! the world of the not physical is a real one! this is how debate is done at the highest Level! beautiful to see in this dull age of people staring at smart phones! the way he sets up the guy to explain his theory, without telling the listener and we only know because he was so gracious to acknowledge that was what he was doing. faith in humanity restored! Thankyou to all of you SUBCRIBED!
can anyone pass this onto Bernardo Kastrup. thanks you .
Dear Bernardo,
Immersing myself in your literary universe and auditory odysseys has been akin to navigating through an expansive ocean, where each book and interview is a captivating wave. Among these, my recent voyage through your dialogue with Kristoph Koch stood out as a remarkable endeavor. Like skilled sailors at the helm of their ships, you both navigated the tumultuous seas of cognitive frontiers, endeavoring to bridge disparate islands of thought. In this intellectual journey, you nearly wove a seamless whole save for a single thread that compelled me to reach out.
This thread pertains to our shared view on the nature of the Mind at Large (MAL) - an entity void of consciousness and self-reflection. Yet, allow me to guide you through a hidden estuary, a secret passageway that meanders from our conscious mind to intertwine with the MAL. Imagine this pathway as a river that, in its pursuit, becomes one with the ocean, where the waters of individual perception merge with the vastness of MAL. Here, in this confluence, a loop is born, thriving on the energy of self-reflection - not ours, but that of the MAL itself. Drawn irresistibly to this loop, the MAL explores patterns within reality, creating a symphony of union.
In this spirit, I leave you with the whispers of a poem by the 12th-century Andalusian mystic, Ibn Arabi, a melody that has resonated deeply within me. May it serve as a key to unlock an emotional and intellectual union on your journey.
th-cam.com/video/0296u91fsmo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=O-XirBMhuESayqTh
Your explorations have been a beacon of inspiration, illuminating my quest for understanding. It is with a heart full of gratitude that I share this crack in my intellectual armor, hoping it may enrich your journey as much as your words have enriched mine.
With warm regards and best wishes for the paths ahead. Hasan Asif M.D
Im in awe of how you express your thoughts. Poetry ❤
Bernardo is very polite even when someone has a different approach/opinion.What he has an issue with is controlling his emotions when someone tries to 'attack' him but i feel he is avoiding that kind of debates these days(and he does well).For example Sabine.
He has been quite aggressive in attacking some folks....e.g. Sean Carroll (of many worlds fame).
Until you mention Sam Harris lol, but then I cannot blame him for that.
I was riveted the entire time. Two INCREDIBLE minds... thinking as one by the end.
Christof Koch, Thank you for the positive inspirational words for the youth of the world. I do so wish main stream media were more accountable for what they push into the minds of the society they inhabit and will leave to the next generation. Be Blessed
What a fabulous conversation! I talk with my old best tripping friend on similar lines but these guys have so many more valuable references to highlight their argument. Wonderful😊
You can see the difference in quality of the debate when it is face to face. I enjoyed it very much.
Superb and incredibly stimulating. Thank you for making these two bright intellects available to us.
I loved the reference to Wagner's Tristan und Isolde which of course was partly inspired by reading Schopenhauer. It is about mystical experience: Isolde's love-death (liebestod) at the end is really a transfiguration (verklärung) in which all desire is either transcended or perfectly fulfilled.
one of the best discussions on the topic. These are really two great mind coming to a potential new way of looking at reality without throwing the science out and without being physicalist.
Fidias, I love that you’re exploring consciousness! It’s so interesting and confusing, and I think you’re going to bring a lot of good to the world by investigating it and bringing together minds to discuss these issues
I LOVED this discussion. Finally it’s a real clash of worldviews, and it’s often only in such clashes that something new and potentially true has the exciting possibility of emerging.
Thank you so much for this. 🙏🏻
This was great! First time understood what Kastrup really thinks...Thanks Koch going to the points with your questions!
Absolutely brilliant conversation. 11/10
Thanks for arranging this discussion! I've listened to a whole lot of talks in this vein, and this one was definitely worthwhile
This is an absolutely beautiful conversation. Bravo!
The GRACE training offered by Upaya Zen Center addresses "runaway empathy" (offered March 2024 online and September 2024 in person). This training draws on neuroscience, social psychology, ethics, and contemplative perspectives to foster compassion and resilience. It teaches how to avoid burning out in the face of suffering.
This is so good. Thanks for getting this together.
This was incredible. Thank you all, Koch incredible smart he got the best out of Bernardo with his very smartly placed "challenges". I think that we got the best explanation of Bernardos worldview right here.
This is the best podcast I have ever listened to. Why? Because Bernardo is effectively being forced /encouraged to explain and justify his theory. Given all the evidence from science, philosophy and para psychology It seems very unlikely idealism is wrong and the issue remaining will be for those of us in the idealistic camp what is the exact nature of such. Broadly IMO Bernardo is very close and how in hells name can we expect better, but we do and must pursue this philosophy. There is still a coherent version of God or Gods or even conscious agents needed. Plurality seems absurd so a monotheistic holistic intelligence has my money.......God.
Μπράβο ρε φίλε, πολύ όμορφο βίντεο. Συγχαρητήρια για την αυθεντικότητα σου σαν άνθρωπος και την ειλικρινή επιθυμία σου να μάθεις νέα πράγματα και να βελτιωθείς. Ο Bernardo αγαπά ανθρώπους αυθεντικούς σαν εσένα. Μόνο και μόνο που σε κάλεσε σπίτι του για να κάνεις αυτό το podcast λέει πολλά!
Σου έυχομαι ότι καλύτερο με τα κανάλια σου. Συνέχισε έτσι! Από ένα συμπατριώτη σου που λατρεύει την δουλειά του Bernardo.
The Cat's Meow ! TBH, I wasn't expecting CK too be so open to having alternative views "on the table". In their last public discussion he seemed rather skeptical, which any good scientist/philosopher/big thinker ought to be. There is little question that psychedelics have been useful/influential in that regard. Most people tend to just remain stuck in their ways, especially after a certain age. Which is a main reason why the current mainstream position persists. & its outright pathological more than anything else IMHO. Even a show like closer to truth is barely willing to closely examine ANY form of idealism with a 10 foot pole. They'll very occasionally brush against it in passing yet even entertain theology ad nauseum mind you. Behaviorism, eliminativism & functionalism & such have been among our darkest times in recent science/academia/thinking. & entire generations have been affected by it, almost as if such notions(alt views) have been clearly debunked long ago. BTW CK & Walter Lewin use the same fashion designer.🤣
Really thought provoking conversation.. Thank you for putting this together!
I found your podcast because of h3. The topics you cover are awesome and the h3 crew thinks so as well.
Tickling the algorithm.Great conversation, bravo
Referencing studies of precognition like effects (Electrophysiology of Intuition: Pre-stimulus Responses in Group and Individual Participants Using a Roulette Paradigm) I think this helps support the argument they make 25:30 about mental states of physical matter and it's interactions with a persons mental state and it's ability to react before an image is physically shown. This leans towards the mental/consciousness is fundamental to the physical world.
The hypothesis of external universal mind where I recognise Kastrup. This clear and eloquent language is very much tingling my brain.
Great conversation. Thank you Fidias.
great conversation. thanks. the passion is so important. beautiful
1:15:14 Oh the quips between these two ! Loving this!
This was rad to see these two together in person.
incredible collaboration! can't get better than this.
I really really loved this a lot. True scientists. This was so heartfelt my mirror neurons activated. One of the best interview / "debate" from the topic.. live concept worked very well. ❤
I also fear that demon that Bernado talked about it.Christof Kock is a priceless human being!Thank you all.
This will be a great listen 👍
Very cool thank you Fidias and everyone involved.
So engaging, honest and inspirational 🙏☀️
Thank you for this upload!
Wow. Excited for this
Very gooood convo, listened to it immediately when I saw it yesterday! Have listened to it twice now, gaining some insight in hindsight
great great questions man, i loved this interview so much. definitely gonna check out some of your other stuff
LSD and MDMA allowed me to literally see through another persons experience. Mind meld
Thanks a lot, what a pleasure
Like Koch, I also want to "figure it out" in my lifetime. As I sat here, eating a banana, occasionally scratching, I thought to myself; if these two intellectual powerhouses can't figure it out then I may need to adjust my expectations.
It’s more of a experiential understanding. Doesn’t depend on your intellect. Lookup Non-duality
Wow! Simply brilliant! This talk is so close to what is being said in the Upanishads and Advaita Vedanta of the old Indian philosophy. Anima Mundi is equivalent to the Atman which realizes itself as the ultimate reality (Brahman) when all Ego is dissolved. To achieve this, the Upanishads recommend a life-long journey of Self inquiry. In that journey, you discard all false conditioning (Ego) to realize that you are the Brahman (pure consciousness or pure Awareness). One way to dissolve Ego is to act wholeheartedly, without any desire, motive, or attachment to the task being performed; such an act defines karma. Karma is not something you accumulate in life. I wonder if Bernardo studied this Indian philosophy.
Wow, i am impresst Mr Koch, Wow, you should Look Up the Work of Dr. Michael Levin
Meta cognition - self awareness - is a property of base consciousness. In other words awareness knows that it’s aware. In the same way that you know you’re aware. Of course it’s easy to overlook it because we are drawn into the drama of the world.
This is the first time professor Christof touched my heart while he was describing about his life period left and average death age and his ambitions to achieve in his remaining life. Otherwise I always got impressions that he is just mechanical kind of intellectual of realistic nature. May God prolong his life, if there is anyone otherwise he himself is a doctor lol. Regards.
Superb discussion.❤
Anxiety about death and the unknown can make anybody, even great minds, loose their minds: or is that cross the dissociative boundary.
great discussion! well done fidias. it's good to let people talk it out. one note about the simulation argument: the "simulation" of a kidney would be a dialysis machine, not a computer program
Thank you so much for this🙏
Koch mentioned his new book about to be published but here he is moving more towards Bernardo's way of thinking. Does this mean his new book isn't worth buying😮
Great interview ,I love it thank you very much ,I'm agreed with BERNARDO, consciousness is fundamental, reality is just an illusion, but still a big mystery because everything look real, but reality is not as it seems, also we don't die, because ours body is just an avatar, we live in a cosmic hologram, we are the universe experience itself.
Watching this with some interest and it never fails to amaze me, that interlect and imaturity do indeed share the same space/red coat.
Very interesting I love listening to these
Thanks!
Powerful content I should’ve seen before. Debates between intellectuals is extremely important and extremely interesting
The biggest reason for meaningless that I used to feel from physicalism is just that what I am (and everyone is) didn't _really exist_. It's demoralizing to what you experience ifn't really any part of the world, but what you are is a bunch of physical stuff moving automatically. Nothing else. And it will all come to a meaningless end at the heat death of the universe.
With idealism what you are (your moment to moment experiences) really exists. You - what you really are and can identify with - are here in the world, and you participate in the world. As a side benefit (or nightmare), you can't be sure of what there is beyond space and time, if anything - and how that might relate to what you are really made of.
Amazing discussion
An excellent exchange on the theme of consciousness. I can't resist suggesting to Fidias Podcast an interview with Dr. Sylvie Déthiollaz and psychotherapist Claude Charles Fourrier about their book "ConneXions" (Etude sur les contacts avec l'invisible), which would be a wonderful complement to this enthusiastic podcast. "Connexions" delves into the realms of the unseen, exploring the intricate tapestry of human interactions with the invisible.
Great conversation between two brilliant men! There are just too many accents! We may need ChatGpt to reconstitute the accents.
I so identify with Bernardo, even though I have half his mental capacity…but my empathy with the suffering I see in the world, and in my own life, can consume me. And my preoccupation with the capacity of people to inflict cruelty on others…I can’t digest this awareness.
Bernardo left his cave to have a convo face to face? Am I taking crazy pills? I joke.
Great conversation. Thank you!
May I say something? You're the best Fidias ❤
thank you for this Fidias !
Great conversation. Good fun!
It's a fine line between pleasure and pain
You've done it once you can do it again
Whatever you've done don't try to explain
It's a fine, fine line between pleasure and pain....
1:05:09 Bernard explain why he had a bad trip 😅, he couldn't let it go, his ego fight to not dissolve...
What make sense given how much left hemisphere way of thinking he is.
I understand that we want to create a theory or a map of reality, but logic is just one way to explore, experience and make sense of the totality.
If logic can prove itself limited and science never claimed to be ilimitated and the only human faculty to experience reality, why we are so fixated on it?
Fabulous 🙏🏼 thank you for sharing 🙂
I just love how Koch at 1:08:30 says: "you meet god, and then you have to do laundry the next day". I would add "You meet god and realize that you are it".
If we think of every conscious agent as a unique point of view within Universal Mind, then it becomes easier to see that *some* other conscious agents will look more conscious to our limited point of view than other conscious agents. So whether they are equally conscious to us or not, we are not able to get a good view of their subjectivity.
This interview is absolutely fascinating….unfortunately, there are ads literally every five minutes throughout the conversation. I get that you have to make money, but this frequency of ads makes the content unwatchable.
Great podcast Fidias 👏🏻
Christof says he doesnt fear immortality after this body drops, but imagine being stuck in one of those nightmares when you wake up sweating, you remember the nightmare but you can brush it off and go about your day, carefree.
Now imagine not having a body to wake up in, so the nightmare keeps going.
Maybe this is what Hell is?
Personally we should take Pascals wager seriously and act nice to one another, just in case we find ourselves wrestling with demons for eons😮
Agreed. Many people think fear of immortality doesn't make sense, and must therefore be the fear of oblivion hiding behind a complicated facade.
The idea of a just God is the only thing that makes immortality palatable to me.
The idea that one could be trapped in a meaningless accident that is painful and never ends is too horrible to imagine.
Even a simple pain like stubbing your toe, feeling lonely, or having a drop of water splash you on the forehead becomes unbearable with infinite repetition.
It awakens my faith in God.