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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- #reaction
#buffythevampireslayer
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Let’s all take a moment to recognize the true hero of the season: the vampire that let Warren live so he could get what was coming.
I have never thought of that. Yay vamp!
Yup, It's a theme that I think comes up a few other times in Buffy and Angel ... someone gets all excited about doing something to hurt or threaten the main good guys, tries to impress the main bad guys, and they have nothing but disdain for the wannabes because they have a basic respect for the main good guys. And I count in that Rack's reaction to Warren. Rack knows Willow and is frankly almost scared of her now ... not quite, but almost, which is saying something. But he SURE isn't impressed by Warren, and it's great fun for us to watch.
I know! Every time I rewatch I'm grateful they don't kill him off right there
vampires the true heroes of buffy ;)
The fact that Willow quotes Doppelgangland Willow before flaying him is so perfect.
Warren's sarcastic "Right, let's talk about my skin problems" when Rack says the Slayer isn't his most serious threat is the best foreshadowing in the history of foreshadowing.
You know what… I never realized that.
Good catch!
LOL I never thought about that until now!
Dawn kills me in this episode. She doesn’t know what to do so she just sits and waits with Tara.
That she's just sitting in the room looking at the body (no pun intended) is heart breaking to see - Michelle Trachtenberg does a brilliant job, underappreciated imo
It is not out of character for Spike at all. Hurting and killing humans - that's all he has done in the last 100 years.
He is literally the exact same person he was in Season 2 when the character was introduced.
You missed a pretty big point of you think he is the same character, nothing about any of the story line so far or the even bigger one about to come makes any sense or works at all if he was the same character.
@@wyterabitt2149 Of course he is the same character. This is even proven in the show: What is the first thing he tried to do the moment he thought the chip malfunctioned? He tried to murder someone - regardless of any help he gave the Scoobies in the meantime.
You're also entirely wrong that "nothing of the storyline makes sense if he is the same character". It is actually the exact opposite - the storyline makes sense BECAUSE he is the same character.
SPOILER WARNING:
The big changes in Season 7 are possible because he got his soul back. That is a big change, but that change doesn't happen until the end of Season 6. Up until the end of Season 6 he is the exact same soulless Vampire he was in Season 2.
@@wyterabitt2149 Nah, he literally is the same character. Heck, it's repeated over and over, and he doesn't miss an occasion to prove it either.
Honestly I'm always weirded out by how much on board the fans are with who Spike is. Like, have we been watching the same show? Did we forget that the only reason he doesn't go on his usual rampages is that he's physically unable to? 'cause that's the truth of his character.
@@wyterabitt2149 Let's take a look at Spike post chip (I.E., "tame" Spike)
Spike is a character that was abusive to his girlfriend at the time, replaced his violent obsession with Buffy/slayers with a sexual obsession, stalked her, constantly interfered in her various relationships, snuck into her home and STOLE her underwear/clothing, had pictures of her that she wasn't aware of, kept taunting her BF across several seasons, wanted to SHOOT AND KILL her because she turned him down, initially only helped fight monsters because it gave him a renewed sense of purpose, made a SEX ROBOT in her image that was later repurposed.
All of that is spread out across S4 and S5 intermixed with "good moments" that is often used for shipper fuel. The fan reaction to Spike and how often his actions are downplayed is probably why Joss kept justifying pushing the character further and further to try to teach fans that Spike is NOT a good person and is still dangerous even when chipped. It's actually surprising that in-universe, Xander is the only one that keeps consistent heat for Spike past S4. Part of that is probably because people view Buffy under a "strong woman" scope (/trope) so don't inherently see Spike as a direct threat to her... until he is.
@@ChevaliersEmeraude There's a subset of fans of this show that really just wanted it to be Twilight, even before Twilight itself existed, where all the toxic, abusive or awful aspects of Buffy's relationships with both Spike and Angel are simply ignored so they can pretend its nothing but romantic. For all the faults of the shows final two seasons, I'll always be glad they didn't give in to that pressure and pulled no punches on how horrific things were absolutely predictably going to go with a character practically made out of red flags like Spike.
People keep forgetting Spike is a soulless demon..
Yea, and he was a hopeless romantic when he was human so that played into his vampire personality. People seem to forget that. I mean I never gave him a full pass on what he did but their whole relationship was toxic and Buffy was using Spike.
Spike and Buffy used violence as foreplay. Spike knew he could force Buffy to come around to what he wanted from her (sex) because it always worked before. In desperation, Spike resorts to what he knows - get rough and she'll give in. This time, Buffy didn't give in and it confused Spike. You can see it on his face after Buffy kicks him off her. Also, Spike doesn't have a soul.
“I'm willing to wager, when all is said and done, Buffy likes it rough. “
Makes much more sense but it’s not what was intended. Not at all.
What was intended was “he is an evil soulless vampire - just a thing, he would do something like this because all monsters would.”
They’re not looking at it as he is a person that made a horrible mistake.
He is pure evil and - look - this is how evil he can be.
Meanwhile Willow date-rapes her girlfriend successfully and she’s just forgiven anyway. And the serious implications of what she did get forgotten in favour of getting her vengeance instead.
I hate it. I fucking hate it.
@@Girl4Musicpeople tend to forget that Angelus and Spike were rapist.
@@undecidedopinions1188 I don’t. I’m well aware of how evil Spike was as a soulless vampire. What I’m bothered by is how they spent an entire 2 seasons giving this character development and showing that he can be on the side of good - and even make his own choices of which to do - to then just turn around and say “he is a soulless vampire - he is incapable of being a person” basically,… rendering him faulty because only his evil nature can rule him when that’s just not what is shown at all. If anything - he proves that that isn’t the way it works. Sure, he does awful things - even still he does. But he is also capable of the flip side as well. And that’s not really acknowledged in his Season 6 arc because it’s just “possession”.
If anything - it’s a real insult to actual survivors of sexual assault because they’re basically saying that Spike has no agency in what he is doing if he is just an evil demon.
@@Girl4Music this is the way I see it, Spike was compelled by his love for Buffy to do good, some people say that it was an out of character moment for spike when he tries to rape Buffy but it actually isn’t, vampires with no soul have no morality, they can do good things in the world but they themselves cannot be truly good without a soul, we saw this with angel, angel is a relatively good person, although I would say he is more morally grey bcuz of some things he does but when he is Angelus, he is completely evil, an individual with no soul can never be good, we even see this in Ats, the kid that is possessed and has no soul and he is essentially an evil person, although spike had received a lot of development, he couldn’t be truly good, the only reason he doesn’t kill is because he has the chip, remember when he thinks the chip is not working, the first thing he tries is to kill a person, if you think this scene is an insult to sa victims that is fair but personally I never once thought that was the message they were trying to tell that individuals who rape people have no agency thus they are not at fault, Spike without a soul and spike with a soul are the same person, he is at fault, he feels so guilty about it that he goes to get a soul so idk
@@undecidedopinions1188 But doesn’t the feeling guilty about it while as a soulless vampire just fly in the face of that entire point? He chooses to get a soul and fight for it even though he is just an evil demon and can only be an evil demon? If he was just an evil demon like Angelus is, then why does he feel guilt or regret for his actions that he actively seeks out his own soul when he fully realizes what he had done? This is what I’m struggling with. The fact it’s all down to his love for Buffy why he chooses to do good things. But there’s moments where it has nothing to do with Buffy at all. For example consoling Dawn in ‘Tough Love’. Showing empathy for the girl - relating to her - and recognizing that she’s not and can’t be evil because she realizes that she has the capacity to be and do evil.
If he had no sense of morality whatsoever, he wouldn’t be able to do this. And there’s other examples - where again - nothing to do with Buffy. Punching Tara to expose the lie of her father for example. Why does he even care?
Just all these little moments flies in the face of this whole canon lore of “a demon sets up shop in your old house, it walks and it talks but it’s not you.”. Like I said - if anything, Spike proves that to be untrue because his humanity as William informs him more than his evil demon. Everything he is as a vampire appears to be because he was rejected as a human and has very little to do with demonic possession.
“Bored now”, best call back ever, if you think even the ginger hair since season 1 was prepared for this arch in the series
Remember that time Buffy put an axe through the chest of one of the knights of Byzantium
Yea they do not count that was a kill or be killed situation.
Buffy has ALWAYS repeatedly claimed that she "doesn't kill humans", period. She's never suggested any exceptions for special scenarios. Yes, it counts. She CLEARLY killed a human in that scene, and never gives it a second thought.
@@bad71able I would not consider them human.
The thing with Spike and Buffy is that their physical relationship always involved him ignoring her saying “no”, frequent violence between them, and a general lack of understanding of consent on his part. Watching through the season again and their physical dynamic definitely foreshadows trouble down the line.
It always involved that either way though.
Buffy also ignored his no’s and lacked understanding consent as well.
I mean ‘Gone’ pretty much showed this . That was sexual harassment. It wasn’t full out assault but it was bad enough. Spike just gave in to her just the same way as she just gave into him.
This time that didn’t happen. She never gave in, he kept forcing himself on her. The whole situation was a toxic mess but both parties were equally as abusive and violent to each other. Eventually one of them would result to this. It just ended up being him for ideological reasonings. But I could have seen it going either way to be honest because they were both as bad as each other. Are we not going to acknowledge this? Is he really the only “wrong” one just because he can’t understand? I’m not sure I can agree with that.
I think it's easy to forget Spike's nature throughout the show because in addition to his "no soul/evil side" he's also very funny and charismatic. Not just in the start (season 2) when he was more of the big bad, but later on as well. Especially the episode in season 3 when he was so heartbroken about Drucilla dumping him, the comedy makes the sinister nature of him much easier to gloss over. He was entertaining the idea of doing to Willow what he tried to do with Buffy last episode (but Willow convinced him to not do it in exchange for her help him get Dru back), and eventually in a comedic way comes to the conclusion that to win Dru back he just has to find her, tie her up and torture her until she likes him again. It's funny in the moment, but remove the comedic delivery and it's not much of a difference from last episode.
I also think that despite Spike obviously being in love with Buffy, or acting like he is, it's one of those thoughts about "what is love when you have no soul?". Spike's love, whether we call it real or not, looks a lot more like blind obsession on the levels of mentally deranged stalkers in real life.
@@oddbjorn1696 Okay, but Spike never attempted to rape/sexually assault Willow at any point: he wanted to bite and feed off her in ‘Lover’s Walk’ and in ‘The Initiative’ he wanted to bite her and turn her into a vampire.
It’s framed as rape/sexual assault because vampirism is often a metaphor for sexual penetration. Has been in much of vampire media actually. Not just the Buffyverse
It’s not a new concept by any means but the intention by Spike was not to rape Willow. Only to bite her. Still evil but not rape evil.
@@Girl4Music Well, I guess it's a matter of interpretation, and you are of course right about how vampirism is often a metaphor for sexual penetration. What I'm talking about is this: In Lover's Walk, after Spike kidnaps Willow they are sitting and Spike is crying and telling her about how how unhappy he is without Dru, and he rests his head on Willow's shoulder. Then he notices Willow's smell and he says "I haven't had a woman in weeks...". Willow gets up freaked out and says (slight paraphrasing) "Hold it! I'll do the spell for you and get you Dru back, but there will be no 'having' of any kind with me!"
The obvious thing is that we can interpret this as he either wants to drink her, or sex (or possibly both). Personally I interpret that as a very sexual threat (more so than the usual vampiric threats/attacks in the show). Especially how Spike phrases it as "haven't had a woman in weeks" and the Willow response of "there will be no 'having' of any kind with me" makes me think that Willow took it as a possible sexual threat in addition to vampiric threat. It could be that it's simply the metaphor being very strong in this particular scene, but for me with the context of Spike being heartbroken and just talked about how Dru was flirting and making out with a chaos demon etc, I interpreted it as a sexual threat.
So that's my two cents I guess.
@@oddbjorn1696 I just interpret it as a very strong metaphor and Willow possibly just freaking out that it meant sex.
I just don’t believe Spike would be the type of guy to rape/sexually assault anyone. At least not just on principle. But then I see him as an actual person and not just an evil soulless thing,… so that probably explains it.
Lets also not forget Spike doesn't have a soul. Not to mention their back and fourth with sex was always violent, It doesn't make it okay at all but Spike doesn't have a soul. Angel raped tons of women, he brags about it often. Love Spike he is great. Most of the Spike haters have a huge double standard when it comes to Angel
Hot Take? Anyone who stops liking Spike because of 6-19 is simply ridiculous. This is a character that murdered an innocent dad in his first appearance without even feeding on him. In 3-8, he slaughtered a completely lovable Magic Box owner only because he was a bit peckish. In the story he was telling Dawn before Buffy interrupts, he not only slaughtered an entire family, but also their little toddler they hid in the coal bin. You guys are perfectly fine with all that, but one attempted r-word later and suddenly that is the bridge too far? It makes no sense whatsoever!
I love Clem! Much needed comic relief
He has a decent sized role in the new audiobook.
This is the top "nobody asks questions in Sunnydale" episodes. 2 shooting victims at 1 house and no apparent follow-up or investigation by the cops. Not even an inquiry into the victim that got up off the operating table and walked out.
The way I saw the end of the bathroom scene in the previous episode, there was a shot, after Buffy heaved him across the room, in which Spike realized that he did something wrong.
It didn't make what he did instantly forgivable, but it did show that he recognized his mistake.
Spike is what happens when you let a guy you know is a bad dude into your life, and then he does what bad guys do.
It's fine to like villains, I consider Spike to be one of the most well written and entertaining characters ever introduced. However I think that the rape scene was totally in line with his character. As a vampire we've seen him equate sex and violence whenever he fed from his victims. Also remember in season 4 when he attacks Willow in her dorm; it's portrayed very much like rape.
Portrayed like it. Doesn’t mean that was his intention.
Uh, no it wasn't, he wasn't trying to rape her , he was trying to kill her
I'm too lazy to look if anybody already wrote this: Adam Busch (Warren Mears) and Amber Benson (Tara Maclay) were a couple for a while and still remain being good friends.
This is the part of the series where I not only see people reacting to Willow, but also go back to the first season to see how and what they thought of her in S1. Part of the reason Willow loved magic so much is because she didn't like what Buffy, Xander and the fans enjoyed so much about her in season one. And now she's an addict trying not to allow the grief to take ahold of her by committing crimes and punishing guilty over helping the innocent. The show handled Willow's slow decline well (because she was addicted to magic from her first spell, but her line crossing moment was ressurecting Buffy) but you don't realize it during the first time watching. And now she's committed murder. Whether people think Warren deserved it or not doesn't change the fact that Willow is a murderer now. Rape against Tara by erasing her memory of her being angry at Willow before sleeping with her, and murder for vengeance against Warren. Angelus would be proud, sad to say. And now she's no better than Faith was at the end of S3. Interesting where the show was willing to take Willow's character.
I mostly agree. However, they should have gone with corrupted by the power instead of the magic is crack nonsense.
@@mikechappell4156 Anything can be an addiction. I think corrupt power would have given her a bit of an escape goat and/or an escape the writers didn't want her to have. They wanted this to be Willow without the need to say it was the power. You could argue addiction gives that sense of power, but it's false power and I think that's the difference. Because addiction is false power, it is actually all Willow and not the power driving her in this arc and since her first spell. It's a fine line, but I think the point of why the writers went this way. Corrupt magic would be an excuse to let Willow off the hook. I'm glad fans can't do that.
@@Buffy8Fan It should have been that power corrupts.
@@mikechappell4156 I disagree, but everyone has their own opinion.
I commented on your last Buffy reaction and said the final three episodes of this season are among my favorites from the whole show. Now you can finally start to see why. It's so satisfying to see Warren finally getting what he deserves, and I love Dark Willow! This arc with Willow has been building up throughout the season. Not only that, but you can see glimpses of Willow's darkness in previous seasons as well with her use of magic. It's a shame that it took Tara's death for her to reach this point though because Tara was a great character and will be missed, but I absolutely love this Willow arc.
Warren saying I know your in pain....I was so glad when she flayed his ass after he said that.
I think the main objection to Willow killing Warren from a general perspective is less about him dying ('cos come on, who cares really, he deserved it) and more about what it would do to Willow as a person - how is she going to cope with that if she recovers etc, she's still got a soul even if she's running on rage-magic, and look what Angel went through after getting his...
Let's take a second to appreciate that Willow summoned then expelled Osiris, an Egyptian god
That was frightening. She’d probably make quick work with Glorificus by this point.
@@zemoxian Back in Season 5 'Tough Love' during their battle, Willow was actually beating Glory until she ran out of magical energy and couldn't keep her spells going as strongly. But now she's drained all those magic books, she's powered up .
Unlike many, even Joss later admitted he thought this whole thing was a mistake and a sign of how low the showed sunk, I always thought the concept of exploring Dark Willow was a really cool one. I just wish it hadn't been so badly wasted, and hadn't been gotten to with the terrible decision to kill off Tara. There's a far better version of this arc just waiting for another rewrite or two that could have been done without deleting Tara for cheap drama or the hamfisted near character-assassination of Willow herself in the first half of the season.
Spike is evil. That should never have been forgotten.
Soulless vampires can learn how to do good things, if it results in something they want, but they can never be trusted in the long run. Spike did it in season 2 for the benefit of getting Drusilla back. Then the chip forced him to play nice on a long-term basis. Without it, he'd never change.
James Marsters was probably among the most liked characters on Buffy.
As much as it feels out of character for Spike, we've only seen a glimpse of spike, and mostly when he has a chip. Truthfully Spike would have dine alot worse during his long life as a demon. The worst things you could thing of someone doing is nothing to a demon.
We've seen plenty of Spike's evil side in the show throughout, though, so I don't think there's any need for blanks to be filled in for it to be on character to do what he tried to last episode. It's just that Spike is so funny and charismatic, it's easy to gloss over his sinister acts (or attempts of acts). I think the only difference in the scene in the last episode is the way it was portrayed (without the comforts of cinematic polish, and showing it in a more real and ugly way).
It's amazing what people are willing to accept when you simply add music to a scene. Spike can literally tell you to your face that he has gotten off to killing teenage girl and enjoyed torturing people and that's "within" character. But then when he does what he did to Buffy if you just strip away the background music SUDDENLY Spike wouldn't do that. He would never he LOVES Buffy. HE HAS LITERALLY BEEN DOING THAT SINCE HE MET HER.
Edit: looking at some of the comments people seem to be under the belief that because is currently a "good guy" that means it doesn't make sense or it's inconsistent of him to do what he did. But here's the thing just because someone is "good" doesn't mean they're beyond doing something really, really bad. Good and bad are not set in stone that's not how people work. Some of the worst people in the world have done good things and vise versa for somwof the worlds best people. Not every situation can be brought down well this person is good this person is bad it doesn't work like that.
They tried very, very, very hard to remind everyone that he was evil… But he was simply too charming!
@@phuealTed Bundy was also very charming and Hitler charmed an entire nation to follow him.
What's up dude, that sees himself in Xander because like you said 'he is like you and can see through people' . Which, in my opinion, he can't do well, but never mind. Seems like besides this questionable factor, you also inherited his attitude towards Spike. But you are not Xander, dude.
And regarding your edit. It doesn't make sense for me. First you're practically telling us that anyone can do this. Even you, man. What conclusion should we draw from this about you? Second. Let's make Xander do the same since he is also some 'good' guy. And then let's watch your reaction. If when he left Anya and ran away you tried to justify him and even said that everyone in this series should be criticized if someone wants to tell smth about him. You really love this guy, don't you? This is not about what is right for you. This is about who you like. And who you don't. So I don't even want to start anything about Spike. You have your favorites like all the rest and justify them no matter what. So when you start preaching morals to everyone, characters, people with 'It's amazing what people are willing to accept ' etc it looks like double standards. Quite a lot of people like Spike, I suggest you deal with it and get over it. Would be easier to watch. No need to discredit the character every time. And less negative emotions for you and all of us.
@@Junejane4You didn't actually address anything I said so I'm simply going to say your opinion of something doesn't change the reality of it and leave it at that. If you have an actual counter to my argument feel free.
@@MrSupertallblackman dude, that's very funny 😄 You know why? Because YOU didn't actually address anything I said. 'So I'm simply going to say your opinion of something doesn't change the reality of it and leave it at that'. Do you like it?
Oh, and by the way I actually adressed what you said in your edit. So the one who didn't do it is you.
I don't want to waste my time trying to prove you smth EXACTLY because of what I wrote. Because you won't be able to understand. Because you don't want to.
Despite little hints here and there throught the season, NOBODY expected Willow to be the Big Bad of season 6
Something that I find really funny is that Amber Benson (Tara) and Adam Busch (Warren) actually dated in real life. So in addition to killing Willow's girlfriend, he killed his own. xD
For the better part of a decade...it was so weird.
That was in character for Spike. He's known for r**ing, pillaging, m**dering, massacring people. He's the 2nd worst vampire in recorded Buffyverse history next to Angelus.
Was.
Key word there.
He was the 2nd worst vampire in recorded history in the Buffyverse.
But people can change. And he did somewhat.
How did it take me 20 years to realize that it's The Misfits, 'Die my Darling' in the background of the bar scene?
"Warrens human i cant kill him"
Coughs Knights of Byzantium coughs
One thing that is usually not said and acknowledged about that attempted rape scene in the last episode is the CONTEXT of their relationship. This wasn’t a normal a relationship between them that suddenly went violent. This was a relationship that CONSTANTLY was built on violence. It’s all good to say that no means no, but what if every time you have previously had sex with someone it followed a NO-NO-YES pattern over and over. When you allow that and show you are “into that” as Buffy was doing, you can’t be surprised when this kind of interaction ends up happening where Spike ends up thinking that if he just pushed and pushed she will change her mind because she TAUGHT him that that was OK from their previous encounters.
Are you joking? Buffy taught him rape is okay? Why are you trying to justify what he's done? What a way to victim blame and totally down play how disgusting that scene is. At this point he knows the relationship is over, Buffy has told him several times, AND he has just slept with Anya. She also tells him she doesn't love him. In no way during that conversation which lasts more than 2 minutes did she give any vibes she was interested, or in the mood for s3x and in fact straight away he knew she was hurt 'and not moving so good'. Spike really does get away with alot because he has a pretty face. He is responsible for his own actions.
@@theprodigal What he did was wrong. But to fail to acknowledge the reason he thought that was OK is to pretend she never made it ok to force himself on her in the past. Buffy isn’t only a “victim”. She is a powerful woman who repeatedly rewarded him for violently forcing himself on her. To not see that is to just pander to the victim mentality and learn nothing from that situation.
@@theprodigalBuffy raped Spike once before. What's good for the goose...
@@cryptoeatstheworld3379 Spike isn't a dog who needs to be taught not to hump someone's leg, he's a grown ass vampire who at this point knows from right and wrong and could read off of Buffys cues.
@@theprodigal True, but his desperation to reignite their relationship has sent him towards trying the the same approach that worked for him previously when she wanted nothing to do with him last time.
I don't know who's telling you that Spike is not a well liked character. It's the exact opposite, he is a fan favorite...and the reason Joss Whedon had to keep Spike in the show even though his plan was to kill him off after a few episodes is because he very quickly became a fan favorite. James Marster's even tells the story of when Whedon grabbed him by the throat and pushed him up against a wall (not really intending to hurt him) and sort of quietly raged at not being able to kill him off like he had intended, and James was just like... hand ups "it's not my doing".
It's the opposite reason why Riley was written out of the show, because the fans didn't like him very much.
One of the funniest and frankly most interesting moments in all of ‘Dopplegangland” to me is when Anya is like “When I get my powers back, you will all grovel before me” and both Willow and Vampire Willow are like “Pssht, sure we will honey” in unison.
It’s like, not only does it show us that Willow and Vampire Willow are more alike than they think but it also shows us that Willow was never afraid of Anya or was ever willing to put up with her shit demon or not. Like some part of her already knew that Anya would never be a threat to her because she felt no fear of her.
Which goes back to the way Anya viewed Willow. Not scared of her exactly but wary of her. She knew Willow was capable of becoming a vengeance demon and that even if she did get her own powers back - she’d still have no chance against her because Willow was just in a league of her own when she let herself go.
Of course Anya had no idea then of just how powerful Willow could become if the dark side ever took over. But it’s almost like Anya witnessed Willow’s potentiality right from the beginnings of it being used. And honestly, more people should be talking about their relationship dynamic because there’s a lot there.
Never thought about this before and am going to “steal” it because I love it.
Personally I think there’s a lot of overlooked relationships between the female characters because, at its core, this show has a lot of misogyny. Especially in its constant attempts to take away Buffy’s powers. And spotlight men whenever possible. Even in scenarios where they don’t belong. Xander should not have had _ANY_ input on Buffy’s relationships, but there he is, spouting off episode after episode. Meanwhile, Buffy & Tara, Anya and Willow, Willow and Faith, hell - Anya and Joyce (RIP), etc., etc., etc. get ignored because we just have to see what the “Trio” are doing! :/
@@tananario 👍
Season 6 would be so much better without the Trio. That’s just on principle. I don’t care about the “real people in the real world like this exist” scenario to them. I’m more interested in what my favourite characters would do that’s real and relatable. I do really like Season 6 but I’d like it a lot better without Warren, Jonathan and Andrew.
Absolutely. As for Xander - well, I’m a Xander apologist so I don’t necessarily agree there. I think that he gets shafted a lot in his representation and development as compared to his female counterparts and that’s partially why he is so disliked by the fandom. Because they don’t spend enough time fleshing him out as an actual individual character over an avatar of whatever ideology of the week the writers wanted to talk about regarding morality and shit.
See if this show was on HBO max the warren kill would look so gory like THE BOYS gory, and the blood would be on willow face, while she say "one down" that would look badass 😅
I get what you're saying about "that scene" changing your opinion of Spike as a character but remember, Spike has bee doing things exactly like that or worse since becoming a vampire. He is an unrepentant mass murderer and I'm more than certain that Buffy was not the first woman he has ever sexually assaulted. And yes, we've witnessed him doing good things, but all of those things were done out of selfish motivations to get on Buffy's good side, tainting the goodness of the act from the start.
Buffy is literally stronger than Spike, and she took sexual advantage of him as he said to stop a few episodes ago... but now Spike is the bad guy?
Willow drugged Tara and took advantage of her a few episodes ago, but Spike is the bad guy?
Angel took advantage of an underaged girl, but Spike is the bad guy?
EXACTLY!
Jesus, I thought I was the only one.
Thank you!
Are we really just referring to this as rape/sexual assault just because it is so horrifically framed as one? Physical force is visually horrific to watch but it is absolutely not what makes it rape! It’s a form of rape, yes.
But it is not the thing that constitutes as rape/sexual assault. The lacktherof of consent is!
But yes, we’ll just overlook that with Willow and Buffy and Faith and Angel.
Cool. Fine. Whatever. 👍
its definitely dark but kinda love that warren ended like that (not sad)
Spike was a good person and when he became a vampire his soul left his body, he was always obsessed with the slayers. But he doesn't love Buffy but rather his personality was masochistic. Every time he had sex with Buffy it was violent and he thought that was what she liked. It is a metaphor for violent relationships that increase in intensity and how harmful they are. They are not love relationships.
Yes, this was purposefully made one of the most, if not the most brutal death on the show.
The quiet shy insecure little human girl did that.
I was looking forward to watching this but the tornado sirens have been wailing and the weather radio is screaming at us. There is a large tornado on the ground and it is heading our way. I had better take shelter. Hopefully my house will still be hear in half an hour and I can watch this.
Is everything OK now? That sounds pretty scary.
Thanks for asking. Things have settled down now. Earlier we went from one tornado warning then a little latter to a second tornado warning. Luckily the twisters missed us. South of us in Tennessee things went from bad to worse. A powerful tornado plowed through Hendersonville and on through Gallatin and onward. Tomorrow we will see mmuch damage was done down there, could be catastrophic. @@dantesummers4048
If only Willow knew someone GRANTING VENGEANCE WISHES. "I wish Warren shot himself instead of Tara."
If only she was a vengeance demon herself. Certainly has the hubris for it.
@@Girl4MusicVengeance Demons cannot grant their own wishes.
@@RetroRobotRadio oh yeah, forgot about that. 🤣
But as Anya said. She didn’t want her help. She wanted to get the bastard herself. And she did.
I find Buffy hypocritical at 14:50 Human world doesn't have its own rules for dealing with people like Warren. He's a mad scientist/warlock with powers exceeding many supernatural creatures she sent to dustville and he could easily run away from any prison. So her whole argument is that she feels entitled to decide about life of non-humans, but not humans, even if said non-humans have soul and all. I guess Buffy enthusiasts know what I'm referring to...
It's not out of character for Spike, it's just not what you want to see from him because you like the character. There is a difference. Spike's done as bad and worse, the idea that sexual violence would be the magical line for a creature that has canonically murdered, tortured, abused, used and manipulated for fun and sport for over a century is pretty silly. They played it as as joke but even his resolution to obsessing over Dru leaving him was to "tie her up and hurt her until she likes me again". That is Spike, it's always been Spike, it's what he is. He's a charming, charismatic, funny, sociopathic serial killer who conflates sex, love and violence.
And the good side of him is something you don’t want to see from him because you don’t like the character.
There is a difference. 😙
@@Girl4Music I love the character, he's one of my favorites in both shows. Marsters is charismatic and funny and the character has layers that make him interesting. I just don't pretend he isn't what he is; An obsessive stalker with a history of possessiveness and on-screen violence toward the multiple different women he's involved with. The show isn't subtle, it literally shows him having sex while fantasizing about hurting Buffy at the start of this subplot multiple seasons ago.
@@troikas3353 Sorry I misinterpreted. And I get that. He is abusive and even sadistic every now and again. But he isn’t only this. He does have goodness in him and he does do selfless things every now and again and I just think these parts to him get ignored in favour of the “he’s an evil soulless vampire” rhetoric.
I’m tired of people only thinking of him one-dimensionally that’s all. Especially when there’s literally human and ensouled characters that have done or are doing just the same.
@@Girl4Music I just tell people to watch Spike's portrayal from season 5 episode 19-season season 6 episode 8. Then compare it to his portrayal in season episode 9-19.
It feels flat out forced and out of character.
Can't be a person. Can't be a monster. This is Spike in a nutshell.
The character of Spike had to do something extreme, it helps push what's coming. I hated that episode too but Spike is and will always be my favorite character and I will forever be "team spike" in that fan battle. I dont want to give any spoilers so I won't justify why I am unchangeable on my views, but I can (and will once you're done completely with the show)
It wasn't worth it. There were other reasons for him that they didn't use. The problem is that the scene was big enough so it influenced not only this future event that you are talking about but also the whole storyline, people's and actors attitude, not for you but for some others. So it wasn't just a reason for him to do what you mean.
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SPOILERS
It also influenced next season when half of it he is just trying to forgive himself and only closer to the end we saw smth more than that. And his story with Buffy was practically ruined. Only at the very end there was smth. So what is all this for? It destroyed as much as it brought. Made it more like a missed opportunity.
Yep, Willow's a badass. Tara had not wnough good scenes with the gang, they could've explored her potential more, and it's heartbreaking what happened.
I don't get peoples shock. Spike's r-worded and murdered plenty of people. Did people think this plot about the depressed girl who started sleeping with her stalker was going to turn out well?
Frankly I think the scene was kinda necessary. It seems no matter how many times Spike jumps at the chance to start murdering again, people couldn't seem to grasp that he's litterally a soulless monster. We get it, he's funny; but anyone who thought he was a good person is deluding themselves.
I think he evolved into a better person: not necessarily good, not necessarily evil. And I think that all that intentional development for his character was trampled on with this scene. Maybe it would have made sense to do this with him 2 seasons ago. But not now. This character has grown so much since then that this feels extremely jarring and wrong.
It’s not that people aren’t evil.
It’s that people can change.
And this scene comes across as he is incapable of change. Of evolving. And of choice since it appears to be his nature that’s compelling him to do this. At least that’s how it comes across to me because if it was truly his choice to rape/sexually assault Buffy, he wouldn’t immediately feel regret for it. He wouldn’t suddenly realize as soon as he came out of his violent haze the seriousness of what he had just done. How horrific it is to do it.
All that comes across as he was never in control of what he was doing which is just completely out of character. Spike is always in control of his nature and he does make choices both on the side of good and on the side of evil. So this whole scene just seems like complete character assassination.
They seem to be saying that the only reason he does this is because he is an evil soulless vampire and nothing more. That he can’t ever be anything more. And that’s just not true.
He has already proven that he can.
Even soulless.
@@Girl4Music
Like I said. Deluding themselves.
People can change. Spike isn't people. Spike is an evil vampire. Buffy kills them every week and doesn't feel bad because they're not people. Buffy turns herself in to the police when she kills people.
This season alone, he thought his chip was broken and immediately attempted to commit a murder, he was actively indifferent when Buffy thought *she* had committed a murder and was selling demon eggs capable of wiping out cities.
There was nothing out of character about what Spike did in Seeing Red. He has been assaulting her all season and half the time, it gets him what he wants. That doesn't make it okay but it's not *new* behaviour.
Like I said, the bathroom scene in Seeing Red is apparently necessary because nothing short of a scene *that* uncomfortable can apparently get it through to people.
@@Cyrinil142 and my point was just proven with this comment yet again.
@@Girl4Music
your point that spike has changed? How did I prove that? I listed off examples of him continuing to be evil.
@@Cyrinil142 precisely
I never understood how it was already on the news that a girl was shot in her own backyard, but was expected to survive. As Buffy was still unconscious, on her way to the hospital.
Spike without a soul will always be better than Angelus or Liam.
1:16 I think he’s abusive “but” …
😂😂😂😂
"Bored now"... A callback to Vampire Willow from season 3 😁
In the Jack Nicholson movie "As Good as it Gets" the main character, who has clinical OCD among other things, tells his love interest that he's been dedicated to taking his meds because "You make me want to be a better man." That's where Spike was for Buffy since at least Season 5, possibly longer.
I'd suggest some deeper thought on Spike before completely giving up on him. First, consider how his and Buffy's "relationship" has gone. In Smashed, the first time they had sex, it started with Buffy getting violent with Spike then initiating sex. In Gone, she ignores consent. Yeah, he "changes his mind" once she starts on him "Hey, that's cheating" but she started despite his saying "no". The situation in the bathroom was different but, lacking a soul, Spike really couldn't see/understand the difference. He was trying to recreate Smashed from the other side and until Buffy kicked him away, he didn't see the difference. Once he did see, it he had a look of horror on his face.
So, yeah, Spike is a monster. But he's not quite as much of a monster as a simple look at Seeing Red might lead one to think.
I wish I could see it this way. I really wish I could. Because it honestly makes so much more sense.
But I’m not naive. That’s not what the writers - especially Whedon - intended.
As for taking Dawn to Spike, despite the issues between Buffy and Spike (to say the least), one thing Spike has never done is threaten Dawn. He's gone above and beyond to protect her, including when Buffy was dead and there wasn't even the thought of impressing Buffy and getting into her pants.
@@coldservings
Then you look at Buffy and Angel’s relationship in Season 1 and - yikes.
Oh that striking difference really strikes.
@@Girl4Music Among other things, I'm a fiction writer. And one thing I've learned is that there is a surprising amount of stuff in fiction that's not intended. (At least surprising for people who don't do it.) Had someone comment on a story of mine about a particular bit of symbolism. I told him, no, I put no such thing in there. Then I went back and re-read the story and damned if it wasn't there, plain as day. I hadn't intended to put it in there but my subconscious had other ideas.
I mean, I don't think Joss Whedon _intended_ to write something, in one of his other series, that people would cheerfully call "Libertarian Space Cowboys."
And the thing about screen productions is that no one person, even writer and director has complete control over. Lots of people have input. The talent is a big part of it, as do external factors. I mean, Spike wasn't supposed to survive "What's My Line" and yet here we are.
When it comes to "Seeing Red" there are five people listed on IMDB under "writing credits". Joss Whedon's is "created by" not "written by". And the director was Michael Gershman.
Finally, "head canon" is a perfectly valid thing. You and I can interpret things different ways consistent with what we're actually shown and that's fine. (Ask me my head canon for Hogan's Heroes some time. ;) ) I interpret Spike that way precisely because it makes more sense and is consistent with his character arc. (Don't know how far you are in the show and don't want to spoil it for you, so won't say any more about that here.)If that's not the writers' intention, then so much the worse for the writers. And, of course, if someone else interprets it differently, that's there prerogative just as much as mine is mine.
@@coldservings I’ve finished the show. Don’t worry. And thanks for your insightful response.
Maybe I should just forget about what the writers did or didn’t intend by this scene and create my own headcanon for it.
I mean I am always an advocate for art is in the eye of the beholder. So why not with this?
This show makes me question so many things that honestly confuse me about life.
Reading the thumbnail made me think. And it’s NOT just you.
Out of all the reactors I’ve watched. Everyone says pretty much the same thing.
Spike being “bad”,and repeatedly reminding them all of it constantly.
That scene was unforgivable. Poor James had to act it out. Violent and demoralizing YES! But, how can I say this. She survived? Trauma yes. . (Please don’t kill me.) It gets to my point, or maybe the story’s point?
I have an entire theory on it. But let’s stick with the actual show we’re watching.
So, that scene happened and now we hate Spike.
So, out of character for him. Such a horrible thing to do.
But,
Let’s take Willow becoming evil at the drop of a dime because her girlfriend was killed.
We all love Tara, and Warren should get what he should get.
But for Willow to do to what she did was a little out of character. I’d say.
Hunting down Warren premeditatedly and predatorily like an animal. I mean he was an animal yes, but she was hunting her pray too.
Then flaying him in the middle of the forest.
That’s ok because it’s revenge?
I mean justified punishment. Ok.
But to cheer the “good one” on for doing a heinous act while literally hating on the evil one for being, you know, evil.
Makes ya go hmmmm.
Oh, no. It was definitely in character for Willow to do that now she has the power to.
But yes. I agree with you. She’s held to different standards because she’s a Scooby and we all hate Warren and love Tara.
“Faster pussycat, kill, kill!”
Was really looking forward to this one!
Dark Willow Rises.
For me it was less that Spike could never have done that, but that it felt like they fast forwarded to Spike being in that place when he would. Its sort of like when Faith rocked up to the Mayor to work for him not long in episode terms after handing out with Buffy. I felt like in both cases we were missing a couple of episodes when they were spiraling into an extra bad place.
If anyone deserved a good flaying it was that creep Warren. And I still always hate that poor Tara is left alone in a pool of her own blood(until Dawn comes home) I know Willow was running on vengeance and fury, but damn.
You think she’d even be able to focus on Tara’s dead body in a caring and respectful way while running that hot?
The whole point is to close the door on grief and only feel the rage from the event. She wouldn’t be in the right headspace to sit with the body and ring the emergency services or coroner.
lol Warren was the signal of the incels before they became a dominant thing post 2020😅! Revenge of the bride Larson and captain marvel universe !
I thought Xander was the representation of an “incel”?
That’s how the fandom seems to regard him.
@@Girl4Music They would love to antagonize him by calling him an incel. But they can't because he has too many girlfriends throughout the run. So, they settle for the "nice guy" trope.
3:00 that's a sign that you are psychologically healthy person. If you don't like to watch such scenes. But I can tell who kind of likes it. Some of Buffy's screenwriters and bosses. Since that's not the first time they use such idea one way or another. And since they pushed it here no matter what, regardless of disagreement with main actors and their own crew. The desire was that strong.
So I also would like to add smth. See, exactly because of all the progress that we saw with Spike, exactly because of how extraordinary this character is, he's without a doubt one of their greatest characters and for some the greatest one. And when after all this they come and do this at the same time thinking that it's ok, it makes me very angry at them. It's like a slap in the face. It doesn't change my attitude towards the character because he is their 'design'. It makes me change opinion about them. And their poor choices. Because this one was such.
Whatever you need to pretend you are special I suppose.
Wow, what a strange take …
After reading your convoluted logic and reasoning, i actually questioning more you’re mental health and connection to reality, as i would ever even considering that the writers and bosses according to your „theory“ being not „Psychological healthy“ because they allegedly pushed the rape attempt unnaturally onto Spike’s character
You seems to bee that kind of person who literally runs open arms in to every major red flag you can spot and who will excuse every flaw and probably even dangerous behavior of his partner by shifting the blame on everyone else
@@PPfilmemacher what an idiocy. You absolutely failed in analyzing people, situations, motives and plot. All wrong. And I don't even want to waste time explaining everything what is wrong here, it's too much. Starting with me and finishing with the plot and characters. And if I don't even bother to explain, which I usually do, it only means how far away it is from reality.
I will say that with regards to Spike feeling guilty for what he did, without a soul he's incapable of that.
A soul in Buffy is a conscience.
What's more, though the scene was probably a bit far, Spike's "relationship" with Buffy so far has been violent. Sex and violence are one and the same to him. It's not who he is to do exactly what he did, but as a momentary lapse in his judgement I CAN see why.
Willow... being "Dark Willow" from the past episode(s) is... both cool and sad to me. I fully understand the need for "vengeance" and Warren deserves punishment. Having said that I am not a killer. And when I'm that mad... it was over too quick. I would have "cursed" Warren with honesty and forced him to NEED to confess all his crimes. Gave him a "10-fold" conscience so his own guilt would torment him for the rest of his life. The... make it so he cannot die for a hundred years and dump him, in full guilt/confession mode at the police. Maybe as part of the immortality give him a condition that causes extreme pain at random intervals...
What can I say I may be a live and let live type... but I have my own inner vengeance demon.
Sounds like you just wanted to make him Angel.
Everybody pays so much attention to Willow’s monologue in ‘Villains’ that they completely miss Warren’s monologue in one last attempt to survive.
WARREN: “Please! God! I did wrong, I see that now. I need, I need jail! I need... But you, you don't want this. You're, you're not a bad person. Not like me. Oh, and when you get caught, you'll lose them too. Your friends. You don't want that. I know you're in pain, but-“
WILLOW: “Bored now.”
Obviously it’s a weak attempt to save his life. To get her to to stop. He wasn’t being sincere and Willow knew that. But still… the weight of what is said is significant. He is basically telling her that she’ll become just like him if she does kill him. She’ll become the villain. Now think back to ‘Flooded’.
GILES: “Oh, there are others in this world who can do what you did. You just don't want to meet them.”
WILLOW: “No, probably not, but... well, they're the bad guys. I'm not a bad guy.”
It’s an important philosophical question I come back to over and over again. Is it right to kill? If it is, when is it? If it’s not, does doing so make you a bad guy or is it just that you did a bad thing? Or doesn’t it matter ‘cause your actions and choices are what make you what you are anyway? I have never answered this question and therefore it has never quite left my mind. It just keeps coming back to me like a boomerang. I’ve perused over this question or these set of questions since my first time watching ‘Xena: Warrior Princess’ and observing Gabrielle’s arc with becoming a warrior. I don’t think I’ll ever get rid of this subject.
And maybe that’s the point. I’m not meant to.
I don't think it's that deep. I think he was just throwing shit at the wall and seeing if anything would stick in a desperate attempt to save his life. Saying everything and anything.
@@datboi04 He was. I believe so too. Doesn’t mean it’s not true or could be.
Can't wait to see how Kass reacts in the next one, number 19 to me was the shock episode, number 20 is the "DAM!!! is this where this is going?" Episode, and 21 is the Episodes where from beginning to end, you have to remind yourself to breath, and where you say Holy Crap again and again, and again. Have a feeling after she sees what happens in 21, she will have to jump to number 22...Right away.
Don't think that's in his character? "Wanna know what I did to girls Dawn's age?" Says all that needs to be said.
Which he admits to himself in extreme guilt.
@@Girl4Music just because someone feels guilty about doing something doesn't mean that's not a part of their character or they won't do it again, would you let someone who sexually assaulted a kid around your kid because you think they've changed? I wouldn't.
@@tupac1971ever I wouldn’t. But this is not the same situation. He assaults Buffy, not Dawn. Any children he might have assaulted in his past is something he clearly regrets if he is saying this with such hatred for himself.
The point is no one is really giving him the chance to change his ways because no one respects him as a person so he thinks “why bother?” and continues to just do the same old shit. But he has also done a lot of good as well that’s rarely acknowledged. He is capable of both good and evil and with the right company around him that actually care about him and respect him, maybe the good side will actually win out. Who knows?
Blind faith, maybe. But I’m always a believer of giving people the benefit for the doubt.
I don’t ascribe to the bullshit “demon possession” interpretation anyway so I definitely think its possible for Spike to be good even when soulless.
He said that in season 7. She's reacting to season 6 in this reaction.
Season 6 can be hard to watch. But this is where it pays off.
Ramsay Bolton would be so proud of Willow 😊
Finally, someone else thinks it's out of character for Spike. There's certainly a few camps about last episode, that's a small one, but it's there. The character is so interesting, and one of the things is that he _is_ so intuitive and does things to manipulate people, he doesn't just behave emotionally in a way that ruins all his chances of a larger goal (to get Buffy). Most of the criticism is on the writers though, for not thinking of the impact they'd have, and trying to ruin the character for others.
It’s so jarring to me that there’s people that don’t think that he has changed or can’t change. That all the while the chip in his brain has forced him into submission into helping Buffy and the Scoobies,… that that experience didn’t train him to become a better person
He has clearly shown that it has. Several times. It’s head-scratching that many people don’t see this about his character. That he has developed. That has can make his own choices for either good or evil. I don’t know… 🤷♀️
Those two EMTs worked on Joyce in The Body.
excellent writting, climax for characters this season. You can rewatch the musical it says a lot about characters fate this season. Poor Willow, the ending of the season was the consequences too of the beginning of the season, the dark magic used by Willow, like Tara's death was the price of Buffy's resurrection...
Episode 19 is what made me stop shipping Buffy and Spike
All the crappy things happened as set up for things you may like and those things couldn't have happened without that -- it all makes sense by next season and the finale. Everything is always build up and set-up for something unexpected.
"Best Kill Ever" and it's Warren 🤣
You're having some feelings I see
Also though, you're not wrong haha
Its so funny how you love villaons and hate warren. Warren crosses the fictional barrier. To me thats what makes him a good villain, and thats also why I hate him. He is real. There a ton of warrens out there
The Dark Willow storyline was literally an adaption of the Dark Phoenix storyline. Willow is referred to in the show as Dark Phoenix, and the staff of the show also stated this (Buffy is *heavily* based on the X-Men) - so I hate that in order to show Willow as evil, they gave her the generic black-hair-black-clothes-villain trope.
To make the transition unique from other villains in the show as well as pay homage to the Dark Phoenix character, they should have made Willow’s hair violently orange and red, and have her wearing shades of red clothing.
The black hair and black clothes look stupid and cliché in my opinion.
I won't regurgitate a lot of the talking points that the comment section is likely full of. I'll just say that 6x19 is such a divisive episode that it can ruin the entire show for some viewers. As such, I'm really looking forward to your reactions for the conclusion of this season and beyond. Hopefully you can still find things to enjoy about it.
And I am in agreement with you. A well written fictional villain is fascinating. Especially one like Spike, a long lived character that we've spent a lot of time with and seen different phases of their life. It can result in a very compelling character and drama.
Afterall, heroes can only be as great as their villains.
So like I said...really looking forward to the rest of your Buffy reactions.
Warren is worse than a vampire because he actually has a soul and they don't.
I'm with you on Spike being an interesting character, but what he did out of character? Hardly.
How many women do you think he's done that to in his long, long life? How many little girls do you suspect he's done that to?
Nothing changed. He was simply neutered. What he did last episode was the most in character thing he's done in 3 seasons.
His first words after they sleep together are literally
"I knew the only thing better than killing a slayer would be fucking one"
And people somehow think attempted rape is out of character.🙄
I totally agree with you on Spike ... Totally!! But lol... Back when this came out this was never brought up in things like this. I can see why they put it on Spike ... Obviously one of the writers wanted this issue brought out ( the prior episode) ... I still think buffy n spike were my personal fav. My question to you is which do ya like Vamp Willow or Witch Willow??😅😅
I think the hardest part with villians in these episodes specifically, is that not only what they do is violent, and such but it dispels some of the romanticized idea of them especially with spike. What spike did wasn't just violent..it was gross, and brutal. With warren he has always been gross and unredeemable because he has little to no redeeming qualities, especially with his attitudes and treatment of women makes him completely unlikeable.
Welcome to Darth Willow.
“Buffy, I am your Mother.”
Everyone from the fans to the actors hate the Spike assult abd feel it was completely unnecessary. This is when we get to blame Joss Whedon's weird love for torture.
According to James Marsters, the idea for the scene came from a female writer (he didn't name them specifically) who had a similar experience where she forced herself on her boyfriend and he had to use force to get her off of him.
Also, as much as the scene disturbs me, I do think the scene needed to happen. I knew that the relationship between Buffy and Spike was icky, but I needed that scene burned in my memory to truly understand it. I think Buffy and Spike did too.
If you don't like the scene, fair enough, but I think you're making a lot of assumptions about fans of the show and the reasons the scene was included.
@@limepie3025 they had to make it icky because Spike was more entertaining and likable than Angel. It was not necessary at all because in the end it literally made 0 difference. She literally says "I love you" as her last words to him.
Spike EARNED his soul. Angel was cursed with his. He was over 200 years old and chased down a 17 year old. That was extremely rapey... Spike never hid himself from Buffy. It makes no sense for the characters.
Joss hated Spike for being likable, and the Angel story was SUPER Whedon abusive groomed and they had to sell the trash Angel spinoff.
First of all, spoilers. Second of all, why are you bringing up Angel? Third of all, Joss has many flaws, but I already said that Joss was not entirely responsible for the scene.@@paulsmith8510
@@limepie3025 except he was entirely responsible. I bring up Angel to show how RATINGS are more important than genuine character developmentm. The epsiode was stupid and pointless and 100% for trauma. It was stupid. No one involves in acting nor watching buys it. Completely unnecessary. Just gross. Keep defending completely pointless rape scenes in a fictional show, though. Not sus at all...
Ok. I see this discussion is going nowhere. Could you at least delete your comment that contains spoilers?@@paulsmith8510
Warren is #1 on my most hated fictional characters of all time list.... 😅
I wish that Willow and Tara at least had a short conversation about what went down between them. Just so Willow could understand exactly why what she did was wrong and didn’t just think it was because she was exposed for it because all abusers are like that. They only apologize for being found out, not for what they actually did. That would have been fine for me. Then if they wanted to have them make up - great. Kill Tara off - great. Do Dark Willow - great. I just don’t like how the narrative just immediately moves on from what should have been a very important moment between them in addressing the trajectory their relationship was taken and that it can’t just be forgiven like that.
If this season was largely about abusive and destructive domestic relationships … they should have really leaned into the reasonings for why and how some actions and choices are wrong and evil and not just the consequences for them.
They needed that conversation. Willow needed to understand the depth of what she did. And Tara’s character development wouldn’t have been so thoroughly trampled on if they did. I think that’s what really bothers me about this whole situation. That Tara’s development was undermined. She did a very brave thing in leaving Willow when she loved her so fiercely and the company surrounding her. But she did it for self respect. For finally standing up for herself and not tolerating abuse. And the way the whole thing gets “resolved” just wasn’t right to me.
A major problem I have with the whole Spike attempt R/SA situation is that CHOICE is thrown right out the fucking window when CHOICE has always been a major theme for Spike’s character development.
He CHOOSES to be good.
He CHOOSES to be evil.
His NATURE doesn’t compel him. Yes, he has animalistic impulses but they’re apart of his physiology. It’s something he is in control of. And to show that he isn’t flies in the face of his entire fucking arc of being able to overpower the demon.
If it is “possession” WHO is possessed? Is William possessing the demon or is the demon possessing William? Neither is applicable. William is DEAD!
If it is “corruption” then we are to assume that William is what is corrupting the demon or the demon is what is corrupting William. Spike is BORN!
So here is the real question.
Is SPIKE that DEMON
Or is the DEMON inside of SPIKE?
The same question can be asked of Angel/Angelus who, so far, is the only significant vampire that has TWO SPLIT PERSONALITIES because they are TWO SPLIT ENTITIES.
When “ANGEL” is in control of the body,… it’s a demon INSIDE of him.
When “ANGELUS” is in control of the body,… the DEMON is front and center.
You can’t have it both ways. You have to pick a fucking consistent narrative. This is why this Spike attempt R/SA situation does not make any fucking sense and is absolutely character assassination.
Spike IS the DEMON.
Spike IS the HUMAN.
There is no possession with him. There never was. It is just a transformation. He has undergone an evolution and CHOICE is what makes the difference.
He does not CHOOSE to rape/sexually assault Buffy. Nor does his NATURE compel him to. Inconsistency.
You could say that it is the HUMAN in him that makes him do what he did. In which case he is no different from Warren or Willow. THAT I can get behind. THAT I can take seriously. Not this “it’s because he is an evil soulless thing” shite.
If it’s his human/animalistic impulses that cause him to attempt R/SA Buffy, fine. No issue with that. But that’s not what the writers are trying to force you to see in THAT scene. They want you to understand that he does it because he is an innate monster.
No, that excuse doesn’t sit well with me when Warren and Willow exist in this Universe. Warren and Willow are fucking monsters in this season. Are BEASTS. They’re ensouled humans and they act the way they do because of it. But Spike… nah. They don’t play it that way with him. He is defective. And the only reason why is because Whedon is a stubborn bastard who wants to keep his extremely wobbly soul lore. Well, the thing is that the show is better when it blurs the lines between good/evil no matter what SPECIES the characters are. You can have actual monsters do good and actual humans that do evil and the reality is that it’s the other way around. The actual monster is the most humane. The actual human is the most monstrous. This is COMPELLING! This is what great writing is about! This is what an entire audience full of humans latch on to and are riveted by. Whedon is an IDIOT! He destroys a perfectly GREY character because he can’t stand that that character is loved for it. He doesn’t like that people are relating to, resonating and identifying with a significant soulless vampire. He doesn’t like that his code of law in the lore is being contradicted by the extremely layered dynamic of Spike’s character when he wrote him that way to begin with. Like a petty child stomping on a flower he originally planted. He is so pathetic.
How do you square that circle with things like trying to kill Buffy right after learning he can hurt her? Was that inconsistent too? Can Spike only one way at any given time? All of these situations are still based on choice. Spike choosing to do good things doesn't mean he's incapable of making bad choices too. That's not how it works. The worst people in the world have probably done good things in their life and some of the best people in the world have done bad things. I legitimately do not understand how you came to the conclusion that Spike assaulting Buffy changes or really has anything to do with his past good those are different situations.
@@MrSupertallblackman You’ve completely missed my point.
I’m saying it IS a choice and to depict it as something that’s not - as something he immediately regrets when he comes to - is what is inconsistent. Is what I have a problem with.
They’re saying he is just an evil soulless vampire. A demon. And that it’s his demon that’s compelled him to do this very evil thing because he cannot have control over it. It controls him.
At the same time, he is made to feel like it’s all HIS doing. The person. The human. HE did this. There’s no escaping it. This is HIS fault. And he is made to feel guilty and pay the consequences the same as Angel would.
Except he isn’t SPLIT-DIVIDED into two different personalities. There’s no curse.
The demon and the human IS who HE is.
It should be his choice to do this and the narrative should go full throttle with that.
@@Girl4MusicIt is his choice. A choice under distress is still a choice. This Spike knows what he is doing is wrong he says it multiple times but he chooses to do it anyway. That's still choice no matter how you slice it.
@@MrSupertallblackman that’s not how it comes across to me at all. And it’s certainly not the way it is intended to come across.
He is held to a different standard than human ensouled characters that do evil things.
Almost as if he is defective. Faulty.
@@Girl4MusicWell I don't mean this come off as rude but does really matter if that's how it comes off to you. Choice is a matter of personal responsibility. Spike understands what he is doing he even fully acknowledges it and chooses to do it anyway. And even if he didn't that wouldn't change the very nature of choosing or the personal responsibility of that act.
My problem with Spike's character development is I believe *he shouldn't have gotten it.* He's a souless vampire,he's not *supposed* to be as complex as a souled being so I don't really hate him because he's a Villain,I hate him more *when he's not!!* Because I find that incredibly inconsistent and I can't stand it!🤬💢So for example,I don't hate him for what he tried to do to Buffy last ep,I hate *that he stopped!*
Possibly controversial opinion, but I think it would have been better if Warren's shots injured Buffy as usual, but instead of killing Tara, the second bullet killed Xander. We would still get evil vengeful Willow, but it's Tara that brings her back from destroying the world at the end.
SPOILERS
Wouldn’t work. I’ve gone through this scenario over and over again.
What if Xander instead?
Yes, Willow would be angry enough to go on her venge-trip against the Trio. However, she still has her external moral compass by her side in Tara. Tara would likely prevent her from going on the war path to begin with.
Which means … no Dark Willow.
Tara would essentially sedate her before anything destructive could happen.
It had to be Tara that died and Xander the one to bring Willow from the brink because he is the only one who would be standing there with her at the end. Stopping her from destroying the world. That wouldn’t happen with Tara.
Willow would have crumbled well before any of that crazy shit could happen.
Also it wasn’t just Willow’s rage that is supposed to be fuelled. It’s the audience as well. Would that really happen if it was Xander that died? I’m pretty sure the fandom would rejoice. An incel killed an incel. Happy days.
Nope. It had to be Tara. It just had to be.
I do disagree that it’s out of character for Spike. Viewers tend to Attribute character growth to him in a way that Angelus never gets. But spike has ALWAYS conflated sex with violence from day one, and for a being incapable of true selfless love, this is the inevitable end.
I think people feel betrayed by spike being a rapist, but that’s not because spike is acting out of character. It’s because people (and women especially) are trained to ignore the red flags of sexual violence. There’s a reason it’s sooo common IRL. People don’t want to see it. They don’t want to believe that people they like (even if it’s just because they’re charismatic AF like spike, who we KNOW is soulless) can do these things. But if a charismatic human IRL can do these sorts of things, a guy like spike, who threatened to tie Dru up and torture her until she liked him again, is definitely capable.
I’m all about loving villain characters, but if there’s something we’ve always known about this show, it’s that it doesn’t pull punches, and this is, unfortunately, what happens when you ignore glaring red flags.
It's out of character up to THAT POINT. His portrayal from season 5 episode 19 to season 6 episode 8 is vastly different from his portrayal in season 6 episode 9-19.
So it feels out of character and forced. It was all so out of character. And just regresses everything we saw on screen.
Willow dispensed some #BoltonJustice
Willow is as evil as she ever was.
Welcome to Dark Williow. I was about to say the villian of S6, but you're right that is actually Warren.
What they (writers and Joss Whedon) did with Spike didn't ring true. Yes, he's evil and a monster, but he wouldn't sexually assault someone.
I mean except for the fact he already has assaulted Buffy multiple times in this very season.
willow was always the villian of season 6!!!!!!!! was the story of her creation!!!!!
And it turned out to be a big ol mistake when they needed her to be a good little witch later on. 😂😂😂
Yes, Willow is the biggest bad of season seven...the other Scoos, save Tara, are lesser bads...
I think I saw an interview James Masters gave saying filming that scene (seeing red) messed him up and he had to see a therapist afterwards. I love spike he is one of my favourite Buffy characters and I remember thinking when It was aired that seen that they killed his character how could he come back from that or let him live afterwards
I would like to know what Masters thinks about the character doing this. I know he probably doesn’t want to relive the traumatic memory of performing it but I do wonder if he believes it was in character for Spike or not after all the development with him throughout the prior seasons. Whether Spike’s love for Buffy would allow him to commit such a grievous crime.
@@Girl4Music I believe he said it was one of the worst days in his career as an actor as he was contracted to do anything to anybody as that character they wanted. But he understood that Spike was a bad guy and had done horrible things and that if he couldn’t kill the hero and the character had the obsession with her it would be a logical step but you’ve never seen a vampire try do that on screen up to that point
@@johnfullbrook628 No but you’ve seen humans do it. Apparently, that’s not as a bad and therefore doesn’t have to be framed so callously.
“Oh look, look how evil that is,… it’s looks so violent and brutal. Absolutely horrific! What a terrible monster. Unredeemable. Unforgivable.”
😒
Posting my BUFFY REWATCH recap for ‘Villains’. May contain spoilers.
So we’ve finally got to the 3-episodic finale of Season 6 and the major theme this time around is vengeance. I have spent so much time going through this theme and the events of these 3 final episodes in my head because I wanted to explain something that I feel is very important but wanted to articulate well so it doesn’t come across as condescending in any way. And once again - I am referencing ‘Xena: Warrior Princess’ because that show deals very heavily with the theme of vengeance and a lot of what I have been taught through Xena I could easily apply to Buffy too. Now there are some subtle differences because Xena isn’t really a supernatural show so the laws of both shows regarding the themes of vengeance, violence and killing are and should be different. However - they still correlate. In Xena the characters talk extensively about what happens when you kill your first human being. There’s a phrase used: “Everything changes”. Everything changes once you cross the threshold in taking a human life away. This means you yourself are no longer as you were before and will never be able to return to that of which you were before. You’ve changed. But it also means changes in the world around you too. That’s also no longer as it was before and will never return to what it was before. Your experience has changed. Xena cleverly coins this situation as “losing your blood innocence”. You now know what it feels like to do something you can never take back. A moment in time that you cannot go back on and change. The guilt of it swallows you up and you find it extremely difficult to live with yourself over it whether the person you killed deserved to die or not.
I think we would all agree with Xander and Dawn regarding Warren. Warren deserved death for his horrific actions. Not just the killing of Tara and Katrina but the unsuccessful killing of Buffy and just the fact he is an extremely psychotic, misogynistic monster who, as Willow points out before she kills him, derives pleasure from the pain and destruction he causes. No different from your average vampire or demon who relish their kills to feed on or as a form of entertainment. He is just as bad as that as Xander said. So he did deserve death. But it was never Warren who Buffy was arguing for in this scene. It was Willow. Her best friend. She cared only about what killing Warren would do to her. It would destroy her. Later Warren himself said to Willow in a last-attempt effort to get Willow to stop torturing him that she would become just like him if she went through with the kill. That she would become a monster too - admitting that he was a monster himself. She didn’t listen to him and proceeded to magically rip his skin off his body. It was still brutal, but it was also quick. Her friends had caught up to her so she needed to be quick about it. She fully intended to torture him slowly until then as she believed that is exactly what he deserved. A slow and excruciatingly painful death at her personal hand.
The question to ask really then is how do we perceive the theme of vengeance? What does it mean to different people? Is vengeance a form of justice or a form of retribution? Is it punishment for punishment’s sake or what’s right? Sidestepping “vengeance” for a moment, I am constantly perusing and analyzing the themes of violence and killing due to watching Xena. Asking questions - (Is it right? When is it right? Why is it right? How is it right?) - and I’ve come to the answer that it never is right but sometimes it is necessary. And I’ve explained why I believe this elsewhere but the main point I want to get across here is that what compels a person to commit violence or killing is further themes: anger, hatred, fear and survival. And you can apply the first two to Willow’s situation. Thus, this is why it is revenge and not a necessity to kill Warren even though he does deserve death. It is never a moral situation to kill someone in my personal opinion, but there are times when it is a necessary situation. This isn’t one of those times. So on top of the guilt Willow would feel for killing her first human being, she’d also have the guilt that she didn’t actually have to kill him. She did it because she wanted to because she believed it to be justice for Tara. She died so he needed to die to avenge her death as he is the one who caused it in the first place. And it adds on as she then moves on to kill Rack and then she goes after Andrew and Jonathan. And this is where Buffy draws the line on the killing. At Andrew and Jonathan. They were sorry stupid sods themselves but they weren’t Warren or Rack. They weren’t monsters. Just idiots. And this is when the theme moves from vengeance to something much more sinister. To actual villainy. But I will discuss this further in my recap for ‘Two To Go’.
I will say that from a completely fictional standpoint - seeing Willow go dark was exhilarating to watch. But from a realistic standpoint - my soul yearned for her and all I had in the back of my mind was “What would Tara do?” How would she approach and handle this? Watching her lover commit all these atrocious acts in her name. What would she do to stop her and would she have prevented Dark Willow altogether? Again, these are questions to delve into and attempt to answer at another time. I merely just wanted to explain my whole thought process on what I believe it means to take a human life. Especially purposefully and in a way where the action itself isn’t warranted despite how much of a villain the person really is and wondering whether you become a villain yourself.
Perhaps you guys have your own thoughts? I’d love to read them. Leave them in the comments if you wish.
Obviously, Spike is heavily flawed in how he goes about many things. But imo, it was highly out of character for spike to bring things that far. We're talking about the same guy who was tortured by Glory and didn't say a thing that would put Buffy and Dawn in danger, and that's just one example. When he helped Buffy find Dawn in the episode that Willow's addiction led to Dawn getting hurt, it very much gave the vibe that even he couldn't dream of doing that. So what he did, in the last episode... truly doesn't match what he's capable of, especially at this point in his evolution. And I heard somewhere that the writers regretted ever putting that in, so I think most people would agree in saying it shouldn't have been in the show at all.
That's a good point but I can make one that's even closer to this point in the series. You remember when Spike found out he could hurt Buffy without the chip going off? What was the very first thing he decided to do when he found that out? Oh that's right he tried to kill a random person and then tried to kill Buffy and only stopped when she started kissing him. Remember when they were in the bronze and Buffy verbally said she didn't want to have sex with him right above her friends. What did Spike do? That's right he manipulated her and isolated her until she gave in. Remember when he was seeing demon eggs on the black market, demon eggs that if released would have killed A LOT of people. But you're saying Spike sexually assaulting Buffy is "out of character" because from what we've seen it's actually perfectly in character.
@MrSupertallblackman You do make really strong points. He is a demon. To clarify, I tend to look at him as though there's two sides within him; the demon and the little humanity left in him. That's just how I've always looked at it, and I'll reconsider in my next rewatch.
@@asw7456That's a fair enough assessment of not just Spike but vampires in the Buffyverse in general. Angelus is a brutal monster that enjoys torturing people but there still that part of him that is Liam looking for his father's approval. My point being that Spike doing monstrous things to people including Buffy isn't out of character. Spike has a long history of lasing out at people he loves when he doesn't get what he wants going all the way back to Him, Dru and Angelus in season 2. What did Spike do when Dru sided with Angelus? He broke her neck and forced her to leave with him. The only real difference now is they took away the background music when he assaulted Buffy.
Just leaving this here. Whether it will be acknowledged or not I don’t care.
“Rape by deception is a situation in which the perpetrator deceives the victim into participating in a sexual act to which they would otherwise not have consented, had they not been deceived. Deception can occur in many forms, such as illusory perceptions, false statements, and false actions.”
Look - all I’m arguing and all I’m calling out is that there’s double standards in this show - and especially this season with human/ensouled entities.
That’s all.
People refuse to acknowledge what Willow did as rape because it’s not framed as rape and she’s a main protagonist. But they have no issue seeing it as and referring to it as that with Warren and Spike. Warren - because despite being human and ensouled - is a villain and a despicable person anyway. And Spike - apparently because he is an evil soulless vampire and that’s all that he needs to be.
I’m not absolving Spike of his evil soulless actions. They are horrific and he does deserve to be shut out and punished for it. What I don’t like about it is that Willow and Warren are held to a different lower standard for doing the same exact fucking thing.
Not to mention that Spike and Warren were only attempts because they were stopped.
Willow wasn’t stopped and she didn’t stop herself. And then the narrative just moves on. They break up wah wah wah, Tara gets killed after they make up again (which should have never happened if their conflict was treated seriously!) and Willow never ever realizes the egregiousness of her actions.
I love Willow. She’s my favourite character in the entire Buffyverse…. But fuck me. The double standards with that lass fucking astound me.
If there’s any character - protagonist or otherwise - that has the most complicated and problematic issues with CONSENT in the show - IT’S HER!
WHY IS SHE ABSOLVED FROM THEM?! It’s aggravating that they go so hard on Spike just because he is an evil soulless vampire when she does the same shit but because she’s human and ensouled and a protagonist… it’s just a forgive and forget situation. We can absolve her from her evil but we can’t do the same for Spike unless he has a soul? Infuriating! It’s the double standards I can’t stand. So yes, this storyline really bothers me.
“What he did was really fucked up.”
It was. And so was what Willow did to Tara. We seem to have no problem not thinking any differently of her as a person. Plus she actually has a soul.
So she can’t make the excuse of being the villain because she’s just an evil soulless thing.
She’s not and she still raped her girlfriend.
Willpw didn't rape anybody wtf
@@weaponsofwarfare9537Agreed. Willow didn’t rape Tara. Spike lovers want so bad to rationalize what he did to Buffy and compare it to problems other “couples” faced on the show…then imply well Willow raped Tara and Angel raped Buffy. It’s crazy. 😂Every couple they mention were in love but had other issues that resulted in them breaking up. Forcibly trying to rape their partner was not something Willow or Angel ever did.
@@jevonk Willow makes Tara forget things that, if Tara remembered, would make her not want to have sex. Then she has sex with her. In love or not, Will overpowered (with magic) Tara and took away her girlfriend's agency. It makes that little smirk in OMWF creepy as hell.
@@19jake81 Did Riley rape Buffy when he had sex with her but did not disclose he was getting suck jobs from female vampires? Whether a spell, lie or flat out withholding information that could cause the other person to not want to have sex with you as you stated.
Bored now