Who Is The GREATEST Pitcher Of All Time?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- A video to end the debate of who is undoubtedly the greatest pitcher of all time.
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Tread woke up and chose violence today.
This is genuinely a stupid list. You can argue it how you want but they almost made this list to upset people and get them commenting in here lol. Good for engagement. Make sure to like everyones comments btw its good for them
@@pumpbustersv1who’s your number one??
@@adamnaliwajko628 Sandy was too mechanically ahead of his peers to be this far down this list. Counting numbers stats mean little to me with his peak so high and only shortened due to injury plenty of modern pitchers get and move past no issue. He was a god among boys.
Randys probably the most terrifying pitcher to ever take the mound. Dude was so violent out there he murdered a bird.
IMO flip a coin between those two and you can't mess up.
@@adamnaliwajko628 I’d go with Randy
ERA+ is not a counting stat though. Koufax's 132 ERA+ is tied for 44th all time.
This isn't hard. His name is Pedro Jaime Martinez.
He had the two best years, 1999 and 2000. But he did not have 13 all-star quality season (WAR over 5.0) like Lefty Grove, and he did not have two peaks over 40 WAR like Grove
Who was the winningest pitcher in the decade of the 60’s. Juan Marichal. Who else won over 20 games in 6 of 7 years. Who pitched 16 innings to beat Warren Spahn 1-0, in what was called the greatest game ever played? Juan Marichal. Check the stats, nobody better!
Curious on whether Carlton or Spahn would have been in the running for best Lefty? Also, interesting Gibson didn’t make the list
I’m glad you chose Pedro Martinez as number one. Having seen a number of his games, his dominance was off the charts. He pitched with swagger having the insanely good stuff to back it up. He had a chip on his shoulder left over from the dodgers passing on him thinking him too small to be a starter like his brother Ramon. He spent the rest of his career proving them wrong. Pedro has freakishly long double jointed fingers, which enabled him to excel with any pitch, including a devastating change that came from so far back in his hand. To watch Pedro pitch was a beautiful experience.
Love the video! I am surprised you never mentioned Warren Spahn, however he did have a "high" career era of 3.09 but a surprisingly high fip of 3.46.
Great video! You should follow it up by giving some technical and mechanical analysis as well as so we can really see what made these legends tick
If you haven't seen our Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez breakdowns, you'd probably enjoy them!
th-cam.com/video/T8VC6l-UwpE/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/SooDs0taoFA/w-d-xo.html
I actually have no disagreements with this list. Great job!
Oh yeah i am ready for this
Steve Carlton “Lefty” over 4136 strike outs, Cy Young Award four times: in 1972, 1977, 1980 and 1982.
What were the four criteria? I also noticed that Sandy Koufax was the oldest pitcher on the list: a guy that older folks saw in their youth. There is nobody before the 60's. Now the years of the late eighties though the early 2000's was the golden age of great pitching with Clemens, Maddux, jJohnson and Martinez all in my top ten .
But when I listened to some of your numbers; they were face value statistics which violates the dictum of Bill James which is "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."-Bill James
I heard ERA mentioned and FIP mentioned. Both have to be viewed in context. If we put hitting in the context of Hank Greenberg's, Lou Gehrig's Babe Ruth's, Jimmie Foxx's and Hack Wilson's RBI totals then all the great hitters would be from the 20's and 30's Using a control like offensive WAR puts more modern payers like Mays and Aaron and Yastzremski on equal footing. WAR put Carl Yastzremski's 1967 season on the same footing as Babe Ruth's 1927 season with a 12.6 to a 12.4 for Yaz for third and fourth highest WARs of all time for single seasons for position payer www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml
So stats like WAR and standard deviation are more valuable because they follow the dictum of the late Bobby Bragan , an MLB player, manager and executive when he said on the subject of percentages; "Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentages people, you should be perfectly comfortable." which speaks to quality of the league. That way you can find league quality with out the arrogant assumption that "players are better today," a statement that generally goes unproved as if no proof is needed.
Now following that advice from Mr. Bragan, Mr. James and others. I see Walter, Johnson, Lefty Grove and Roger Clemens as the three best pitchers of all time, and that Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez were in the wings for fourth ad fifth best. I had every guy in your top 7 in my top 13 except Koufax who I ranked unapologetically 65th.. But not even to mention Lefty Grove was a major flaw. He got better numbers than all six guys who made my list of the seven guys on your list. Koufax just is over-rated and you were polite to rate him that high.
Id take Maddux all day. Especially now a days when seems like your facing 100 everyday. That sick movement on his pitches and the art of pitching and deception. Num 2 P. Martinez and #3 R. Johnson. But great video regardless!
@@HT-sm9dm without a doubt,can't go wrong with Pedro either, but for me I take maddux. He is my fav pitcher all time.
This from Joe Posnansk:
You will ask why I bring this up. Well, here’s why: I think Lefty Grove is the most underrated player in baseball history. Why? Because he’s the one player I know who is permanently underrated. It doesn’t matter how many people point out that he might be the best pitcher in baseball history. It doesn’t matter how many times you point out his preposterous numbers. It doesn’t matter. He stays in the shadows of baseball history.
Here are the latest results from an ESPN poll on the best left-handed pitcher of all time (pointed out by brilliant reader Mickey):
1. Sandy Koufax, 58%
2. Randy Johnson, 20%
3. Warren Spahn, 9%
4. Steve Carlton, 8%
5. Lefty Grove, 5%
Now, look, all five of those pitchers were great. And this is not a poll of baseball experts of anything, this is everyone - hardcore baseball fans, softcore baseball fans (?), people who think every fly ball is a home run, people who scream balk when a pitcher whirls to throw to second, kids who have been following baseball since May of 2007, people who have not seen a baseball game since 1973 and wonder why there aren’t be more players like Felix Milan.
And so, you can understand the results. Koufax has become mythical. Unit is about to win 300. Spahn is the answer to the trivia question, Which lefty won the most games? Carlton, well, he was called “Lefty” and he played more recently and more people have probably heard of him than Grove. Which is bloody remarkable, I would just like to point out:
Steve Carlton: .574 winning percentage, 115 ERA+.
Lefty Grove: .680 winning percentage, 148 ERA+.
That doesn’t seem especially close, does it? Carlton was a great pitcher, no doubt, but this is a bit like someone asking for the best lefty hitters ever, and someone picking Rod Carew over Babe Ruth.
The thing about Grove is not just that he’s better than anyone on the list. He beats all of them at their own game. What I mean is, well, Steve Carlton is probably best known for his amazing 1972 season, when he won 27 games for a last place team. It’s one of the greatest seasons in baseball history: Most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio. Incredible.
Well, Grove probably had two or three years that were better than that. Take 1930 - which was not Grove’s best season - he had the most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio, best WHIP and, oh yeah, he also led the league in saves. I realize it was a different era, and saves were not even a statistic. However, I would like to say that again: He also led the league in saves.
Sandy Koufax is known for his great peak from 1963-66. And it was remarkable. He had a 1.86 ERA over those four years, and had more strikeouts than innings pitched. But, you have to point out that he was pitching in one of the greatest pitching parks ever, from a mound roughly the height of the Chrysler Building, in the greatest pitcher time since Deadball.
Truth is, Grove’s peak from 1929-1932 might have been even better.
Koufax: 92-27, .782 winning percentage, 1.86 ERA, 1,192 innings, 1,228 Ks, 172 ERA+.
Grove: 104-25, .806 winning percentage, 2.56 ERA, 1,146 innings, 742 Ks, 176 ERA+.
You will notice that Grove’s ERA is quite a bit higher, but his ERA+ is better and his winning percentage is better. That’s because he pitched in a hitters’ ballpark in a hitters’ era. But here’s the truly amazing thing: While those four years more or less make up Koufax’s career, Grove went 24-8 the year BEFORE his peak, and he went 24-8 the year AFTER his peak.
Spahn’s calling card was durability and his ability to win games. He won 20 or more game an amazing 13 times. Incredible. But here’s how many times he won more than 23 games in a season: Zero. Grove did it five times.
Spahn was an amazing old pitcher - from age 35 to 42 he won 167 games with a 119 ERA+.
Grove, from ages 35-39, reinvented himself as a pitcher. And he went 83-41 with a 174 ERA+. Think about that for a minute … for those five years, as an old pitcher, Grove had a better ERA+ than Sandy Koufax’s peak."
forums.collectors.com/discussion/724129/underrated-players
This is what maybe the finest expert about the subject now working says. And we both agree. I cannot see how anybody could pick Koufax or the other three pitchers over Grove.
If the guys who put this flawed list up want to defend it, I am ready, and I am certainly ready to deconstruct Pedro Martinez and show how much better Grove was than your numero uno.
i
Doc is a notable mention
Interesting piece. I've never seen an actual deep dive breakdown of the top tier like this. I wonder if a Koufax and Gibson lose some ranking points just cuz they pitched mainly before the mounds were lowered and strike zones tightened.
As a youngster in the 70s and 80s, Nolan Ryan seemed to be the marquee name of that era, to go along with his coveted baseball card. After Ryan, I recall Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer, Steve Carlton, and Don Sutton getting much of the hype.
I don't follow the game as closely now, but I wonder why the 'finesse' non-power arms like a Greg Maddox seem such a scarcity nowadays(or am I wrong)? Do scouts focus predominately on power arms?
The game has certainly shifted in terms of the physicality of the average big leaguer. It's hard to compare pitchers from the 70s with those of today, similarly when comparing steroid era pitchers to those of today. The competition within the game has certainly shifted and as a whole has improved.
As for velocity, it's simply harder to hit. Teams like it because it's better to predict performance and as a whole, it does perform better than the command and movement guys of yesteryear. Strikeouts are more reliable than balls in play and the higher the velocity, the strikeout rate increases. There are still examples of finesse pitchers in Rich Hill and Kyle Hendricks, but much rarer to see arms like those succeed against today's hitters.
As for scouts, we host several Pro Days a year in which our athletes will throw bullpens in front of scouts from every MLB org. Out of the hundreds of athletes who have participated, the only ones to be signed by affiliated orgs have been those throwing mid-upper 90s. It's just what they're looking for. Thanks for the comment!
@@treadathletics you make the contemporary pitchers are better claim but you do not quantify it and there is a way or ways. Remember baseball is not like track ad field where the goal is simple. It is a highly nuanced game that has been developing for over 150 years.
With all due respect this was not a "deep dive." It was a contemporary lovefest. And the top four belong in any top ten because they are great: Maddux, R. Johnson, Clemens and Martinez. And Seaver belongs and Kershaw is just on the outside looking in.
I will tell you what is wrong with this method: it is all efficiency, no thought to productivity. And I will give you a "deep dive."
It just happens that Lefty Grove pitched 2826.2 innings from 1928-39 (excluding a sore arm season in 1934.) and Pedro pitched 2827.1 innings in his career. This is a comparison
...................................Grove..........Martinez
Win lost record...........235-82.........219-100
ERA.............................2.73..............2.93....
ERA+...........................168................154....
WAR.............................95.7..............86.1...
WAR oer 250................8.46...............7.61...
And yeah Martinez had the two best seasons of all time back to back in 1999-2000. Grove had a 59-9 record in 1930 nd 1931. He was 46-4 in one 50 decision period from the middle of July 1930 through September 27 1931. He had a 2.03 ERA in his four losses. The Americn League ERA for that time was 4.53. He pitched batting practice the last game of the season against the New York Yankees to warm his arm for the World Series. If he had not pitched that game (which no modern pitcher would be asked to do) he would have had a sub 2.00 ERA, the only one in the American League between the two world wars; he would have been the only pitcher to ever win 30 games qnd have a .900+ winning percentage at 31-3.
Also there are 10 categories I particularly value that rank pitchers with in a season they are: Wins, Winning percentage, ERA, ERA+, Strikeouts, SPG (strikeouts per game), FIP (fielding independent pitching), WHIP (walks+hits by innings pitched), SO/Walk ratio and WAR for pitchers. in 1930 and 31 Grove lead the league in 19 out 20 categories for the two years, all ten in 1930 and nine out of ten in 1931 losing only the SG title.
The problem is these guys probably do not know that much about MLB history and suffer under the conceit that modern players are necessarily better than older ones for which they have no evidence other than the modern hubris.
@@treadathletics I would like a direct answer from you on this. In Fastball Joe Posnanski said that bob Feller threw 107.3 mph in 1940 in Chicago's Lincoln Park racing against a otorcycle. The bike was going 86 miles per our and feller released the ball 10 feet after the bike passed and his pitch arrived at the target about two feet ahead of the bike. According to math taught in seventh grade that is about 107.3 miles per hour if the bike was going 86 mph.
Now in 1946 Feller was tested again with a Lumiline Chronograph and his velocity measured was about the same. It was 98.6 terminal velocity which means over the hitting area where the light beam measured it Posnanski asks when comparing Feller to Jesse Owens , the sprinter also from Cleveland Posnsnski note:d
"that Bob Feller started in the 1930's and 40's, essentially the same time Jesse Owens started winning gold medals in Germany. And at that point there was no doubt that Jesse Owens was a quantum leap forward in track. They looked at Jesse Owens and said you are not going to get any faster than that; you are not going to run any faster, get any stronger than that. that is the limit of what human beings could do, and of course it wasn't. The times that Jessie Owens ran in 1936 are high school times now, and that is the way it is accross the board and every record has been smashed
"So if you brought that along in baseball if Bob Feller was throwing 98.6, 70 years later people woud be throwing 120 mph hour How come nobody has found a way to throw a fastball 20 miles an hour faster?" www.google.com/search?q=Fastball+the+documentaary&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS755US755&oq=Fastball+the+documentaary&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRhAMggIAhAAGA0YHtIBCjEyNDQ3ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:01321ef8,vid:SIhQlAass2Y,st:0 (23:18-24:18 for the quote
And the question is why did Feller "only" average 7.34 strikeouts per game of per nine innings in 1940 when he essentally could throw harder than today's pitcher who average about 93.4 mph www.google.com/search?sca_esv=595190714&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS755US755&sxsrf=AM9HkKkhuGLznXNx2t8Nfnd3KnyK-PIVgw:1704234014712&q=MLB+average+fastball+velocity+by+year&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiflr643r-DAxUxj4kEHQWjDZYQ1QJ6BAg4EAE&biw=1097&bih=544&dpr=1.75
Yet we can see that strikeout averages per game have gone way up per game If you look at baseball Reference, you will find that kthe American Leaague averaged 3.82 strikeouts per game in 1940. From 2019-2023 the American League has average 8.62 SPG by pitchers with an average 93 mile per hour fastballs in their arsenals www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/pitch.shtml. I think there is a lot more than velo. There are other culprits adrift like a lack of plate discipline and a desire to hit a homer every swing.
Bob Feller was not throwing 107 in 1943. Could he have feasibly hit 100 in his career? Absolutely. But he wasn't sitting 107. His strikeout rate that you bring up is an excellent example of that. PitchingNinja has a great breakdown of some of those old velo recordings such as Nolan Ryan's "108".
th-cam.com/video/90nI3yFMbX0/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=PitchingNinja
This is a list that I took great pains to compile, and I think has a better grasp of historical as well as theoretical analysis. there is no meaningful way to much separate Walter Johnson, Lefty Gove and Roger Clemens.
The guys in the video were right. Clemens peak was a little lower. And at least the guys in the video admit that they weight peak more heavily. BUT it is a one dimensional (efficiency) which is why Pedro is over-rated. In context, Walter Johnson from 1912-16 set an incredible standard that unless you understand it will go unnoticed.
Maybe the smartest man who ever lived, John Stuart Mill said "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." On Liberty (1859) chapter. 2. While the pitchers selected by the committee were among the best, there was nobody before Sandy Koufax, and that is parochial. Baseball is an old game and human beings have not evolved as much or as quickly as the authors would pretend.
."
...................................PEAK-5..... ROTC GOAT
.......SCORE
1. Walter Johnson 395 388 783
2. Lefty Grove 379 392 771
3. Roger Clemens 368 395 763
4. Randy Johnson 381 378 759
5. Cy Young 371 384 755
6. Pedro Martinez 380 371 751
7. Pete Alexander 377 372 749
8. Tom Seaver 350 376 726
9. Kid Nichols 340 383 723
10. Greg Maddux 367 351 718
11. Christy Mathewson 366 346 712
12. Curt Schilling 349 361 710
13. Clayton Kershaw 344 349 693
14. Bob Gibson 362 322 684
15. Phil Niekro 338 325 663
16. Justin Verlander 293 369 662
17. Roy Halliday 320 330 650
17. Max Scherzer 332 318 650
19. Bert Blyleven 294 355 649
20. Mike Mussina 264 375 639
21. Stan Coveleski 346 277 623
22. Robin Roberts 344 275 619
23. Zack Grienke 258 360 618
24. Ferguson Jenkins 291 323 614
25. Bret Saberhagen 308 304 612
Randy!
Koufax was a great pitcher but i think some others had longer career and better numbers not in the hall
How would the stats of Kershaw, Maddux, Johnson, Clemens and Martinez look if they played in an era when elite pitchers threw 15+ complete games a season?
It’s Nolan Ryan. He was on such bad teams that one year he had a 2.28 era and was 19-16. He started pitching in the late 60s and pitched through the roid era. If he wasn’t on such crappy teams we would have at least 400 wins. It’s not even close actually when I think about it.
Pitcher wins is not a stat that should be used to determine the best pitcher of all time.
@@treadathletics just strikeouts then? Just era adjusted for history then? There is no single stat but Ryan was just dominant almost his entire career. It’s either him or Randy Johnson. If the thought it who at one single point in time was the best pitcher to ever do it…that’s when Koufax comes into the equation.
As we mentioned in the video, his inconsistencies and lack of a true stretch of excellence is why he's not at the top of our list.
Kershaw is my fav pitcher of all time
Respect to this list, Pedro on top & Maddux & Seaver in the mix....but did i miss Bob Gibson??? Do i need to watch again?
Gibson was an honorable mention right at the beginning of the video!
@@treadathletics yup I missed it, thanks for the heads up
@@J-PLeigh8409 If Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are not on the list Bob Gibson never should be. I rank him 14th probably dropping to 15th behind Justin Verlander after this season. He had one ERA title in his career. He was 25th in WAR. He was great in the World Series but so were Lefty Grove and Water Johnson by far the two biggest snubs on this list even thugh it was not too bad given that four of the top ten pitchers of all time, Maddux Johnson, Clemens and Martinez are on it. But the two best pitchers Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson are not It is just the modern conceit that clouds their thinking
If Degrom could stay healthy he has Pedro talent level but his arm cant keep up with what his body wants it to do
Top 10 relatively in order
1. Pedro
2. Randy
3. Maddux
4. Clemens
5. Koufax
6. Seaver
7. Kershaw
8. Satchel
9. Walter
10. Nolan
As impressive as these all time greats are, none of them ever came close to matching Orel Hershiser's 59 consecutive scoreless innings streak (plus 8 inn, including postseason). And Hershiser followed that streak up with one lasting 21 1/3 innings in the playoffs! It's hard to imagine that streak ever getting surpassed.
And no, I'm not claiming that Orel Hershiser should be on this list, just that his particular feat might be the most impressive within the pitching realm in history.
Great video, but Maddux should have been number one
Why?
lincecum for sure
Ryan>Kershaw. What's Kershaw's record in the postseason?? I'll wait.
@@SonicCollectionsPS2Noisesz I will take Baseball reference over FanGraph any day. It is simply too presumptuous to take a very good statistic like FIP and have it replace a better one RA9. Ryan is without question the most over-rated pitcher of all-time. He deserves to be in the HOF but no where near the best pitcher. These guys got that much right
Wanna see some of Ryan's?
1980-81 Astros: Ryan, 11 earned runs in 28 IP. Teammate Joe Niekro, 0 ER in 18 IP.
1986 Astros: Ryan, 6 ER in 14 IP. Teammate Mike Scott, 1 ER in 18 IP.
Gimme an Andy. S or R I don't care.
That you don’t like Nolan Ryan Clayton Kershaw is a good pitcher But he’ll never reach Ryan’s records
ball knower
Pedro. Johnson. Clemens. Maddux. Kershaw. The best ones I saw pitch
Ryan was the best I ever saw. Followed by Marichal then Johnson
So he’s just gonna take the all time strikeout leader out of the all time list
Unfortunately, counting stats such as strikeouts are heavily weighted by how long a player is able to play. The other side of the coin would be that while he has the most strikeouts of all time, he also has the most walks of all time. These aren't the best markers for who truly is the best pitcher. Similarly to how Pete Rose isn't the best hitter of all time because he had the most hits.
78 pitch shutout.
Mariano Rivera should be on this list even as a closer
The thing is that Mariano was hands down, no question, the greatest relief pitcher with Rollie Fingers and Dennis Eckersley his only vague competition
What steroids should I take to be like roger Clemens?
Steve Carlton he won 27 games with the worst team in baseball that year 1972 Phillies
If 27 wins in one season is your criterion where's Denny McClain?
What made Pedro so good? Actually
He had high strikeouts and low ERA during the steroid era
Because he just had nastier pitches?
@@Studentofthegame397 that and the velocity with control
@@diegojaime1565 Everybody had high strikeouts in that era, but he had probably the two best seasons ever back to back in MLB history. But this list is flawed because Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are not on it. It is an excellent recount of the top post integration pitchers. Serious scholars always rate both Johnson and Grove in the top five of all-time.
My personal opinion is that Nolan or RJ is the GOAT SP. Nolan was the best player on a few teams that had many bad years. He'd have easily 20-50? more vicotories on better teams. That being said, this is about pitching and it's hard to argue against how great he was and for how long he was great at it. Regarding RJ, he has an absurd amount of strikeouts vs right handed batters. Lefties, even good ones, were intentionally left on the bench so they wouldn't be screwed up for a few days afterwards, otherwise he'd have many more. Pedro was nasty--no question about it, just not my #1 is all. He, though great, wasn't as great for as long as Nolan was, nor did other teams lineup load against him, like they did RJ. Again, either way, he was brutal.
Cy Young is the greatest he pitched more inning than anyone.
Just because someone pitched a lot of innings doesn't mean that they're the GOAT.
He deserves to be on it. He marries efficiency and productivity beautifully
Cy Young MLB named the award after him I agree GOAT
💯
There can Only be 1, and that is Nolan Ryan!
Reply to my own, 7 Nol No's!
@@porterhouse72607 no hitters?
That stat is a goh- gah I care about WAR @@porterhouse7260
Clemens is the greatest pitcher of all time, there’s no debate.
Seems to me #1 is wide 🔥🔥🔥open there isn’t much debate to who is the greatest QB all time or nba player or even hitter (Barry bonds). Will be very interesting to see if someone can reach that level when the game is getting to a point where there limiting innings on guys
Definitely pedro
@@josephmannix5120 I rate Pedro sixth best, and that is a little higher than most. He did have the two best seasons ever, at least for efficiency in 1999 and 2000. But after that, there was ot enough there there. But he was much better than Koufax
😂😂 Bonds? A roider??. Are you high? He threw is career stats out with the cream and needles.. Like McGwire, AROid, etc.
@@Iconhulk still hard to hit a baseball steroids or no steroids
Nolan Ryan
🤦♂️
Stop w/ the Nolan Ryan, what was his era 4 thousand? How about Bob Gibson ?
@@SonicCollectionsPS2Noisesz it was out of sarcasm, I know he was great & to be honest I really thought he had a way higher career era.....he does have a case for top 10, at the higher end tho. I think Gibson has to be in top 10. There are a ton of guys that could be in the discussion, look at Jim Palmer or Roy Halladay, Steve Carlton & Gaylord Perry etc
He was not left out of the discussion. He was an honorable mention in the first minute of the video.
Easy tim lincecum
Like most of these lists you miss the greatest pitcher of all time, Robert Moses Grove. Here is my argument that to the rational mind should sway your opinion. lefty Grove pitched "exactly the same number of innings in his best eleven years (1928-39 excluding 1934) as Martinez did in his career (2827). Here is a comparison of their numbers:
.........................................Lefty Grove..................Pedro Martinez
Win lost record...................235-82...........................219-100......
ERA....................................2.73...............................2.93.............
ERA+..................................168...............................,154..............
WAR...................................95.7.................................86.1..........
WAR per 250......................8.46................................7.61...........
Grove is also the only pitcher since 1920 to have two peaks over 40.0 (46 from 1929-33 and 42.6 from 1935-39). He won nine ERA titles, nine ERA+ titles; eight FIP titles; eight strikeout to walk ratio titles. Ignorance of baseball history and the modern conceit without evidence to back it up are the general reason that Grove gets left off. I can compare Grove with any of the other six pitchers and only one, Roger Clemens stands up to him. If you looked at numbers then you picked the wrong ones. Here is a video that does a better job (this one was pretty good except for the Grove slight) here is a better one about lefties th-cam.com/video/P_iI4Gu0usw/w-d-xo.html
It stuns me that Grove and Alexander and a few others just get buried in this modern conceit and hubris.
Satchel Paige.
You put Clayton Kershaw in the video and took Walter Johnson out? Dumbest thing I’ve ever seen
First
Just ignore the fact that he took down Don Zimmer during a benches clearing incident in the 2003 ALCS against the Yankees
Gibson changed the pitching game. Easily number 1
Was he not even mentioned??
Remember Gibson won only one ERA title in his career
@@user-tw9mt8io2u but he had an incredible stretch & plenty of low era seasons. I would have to have him in the top 10.....there are also plenty of Pitchers that have a strong case, Carlton, Spahn, Palmer, Halladay, Gaylord Perry, Blyleven, Gossage, Sutton & literally several more. Top lists are always interesting & debatable
@@J-PLeigh8409 The problem with Carlton was his inconsistency and the fact that he never had a five year WAR higher than 29.5. Grove had one of 46 from 1929-33 and another of 42.6 from 1935-39. there have been 13 plus 40 WAR seasons since 1920, and Grove is the only guy with two. He has the highest WAR from 29-33 and the second most efficient behind Martinez from 35-39. The other 40+ guys are Bob Feller 42.2 (1939-47 WW11); Hal Newhouser 40.9 1944-48; Robin Roberts 42.5 1950-54; Sandy Koufax 40.8 1962-66; Bob Gibson 42.5 from 1968-72; Tom Seaver 40.0 1971-75; Phil Niekro 40.1 1974-78; Roger Clemens 41.4 1986-90; Greg Maddux 40.3 1992-96; Pedro Martinez 42.6 1998-2002; Randy Johnson 43.8 1998-2002 Carltons best was 29.5 from 1969-73 including 1972 where he had a 12.1 WAR for one of the greatest seasons in MLB history(consistency).
Bob Gibson famously had a 1.12 ERA that was baseball's lowest in more than 50 years. He should’ve been on the list like number three or even number two.
I've seen them all and Sandy Kofax is the GOAT without a doubt.
Kershaw is top 2. It's him and Pedro there isn't anyone else in the conversation for GOAT.
It is plain that you like efficiency. I like it too. But there are two pitchers not even on this list that are better than any on it.
What about Addie Joss what about Walter Johnson what about Christy wake up man