This is genuinely a stupid list. You can argue it how you want but they almost made this list to upset people and get them commenting in here lol. Good for engagement. Make sure to like everyones comments btw its good for them
@@adamnaliwajko628 Sandy was too mechanically ahead of his peers to be this far down this list. Counting numbers stats mean little to me with his peak so high and only shortened due to injury plenty of modern pitchers get and move past no issue. He was a god among boys. Randys probably the most terrifying pitcher to ever take the mound. Dude was so violent out there he murdered a bird. IMO flip a coin between those two and you can't mess up.
Just a reminder that Nolan Ryan has the all-time career lowest allowed Batting Average (.204), Slugging % (.298), and HR/9 (0.5), of any starting pitcher in the modern era. As ridiculous as his strikeout numbers are, also keep in mind that they were achieved during a time during which the league strikeout percentage was nearly half of what it is today. For example, his 1973 season strikeout total would be *649 Ks* at today’s strikeout rate of 23.2%. All while regularly pitching 150-200+ pitches per start, frequently through pain, injury, & fatigue, and until his age 46 season. Not his fault he played on crappy teams with poor coaching, hitting, and fielding. 🐐 Update: For those of you bringing up the 112 ERA+: do you agree that as a pitcher, the defense behind you matters as it pertains to run prevention? If so, look at FIP. Nolan’s? The all-time lowest among starting pitchers with 3000+ IP (he pitched almost 5400) to debut after WWII.
Also...the lowest amount of hits allowed per 9 innings in MLB history. And 7 career no-hitters (#1 all time), and 12 1-hitters " (#1 all time, tied). Ryan was though, very wild. If he had respectable run production on his teams, he could have eclipsed 400 career wins.
@@bwink23 True! Nolan was downright *absurdly* effective at limiting hits. To add to what you said: He also had the most 2-hitters (18) and 3- hitters (31) of all time. In becoming the all-time H/9 leader, he led the league in H/9 12 times, which no one else has done more than 6 times in their career. (Keep in mind he remains the all-time H/9 leader despite the league batting average during his career [1969-1993] coming out to around .260, compared to today’s .243) As wild as he sometimes was, it didn’t remain that way throughout the entirety of his career. He led the league in WHIP twice during his tenure with the Rangers, and was actually the strikeouts-to-walks ratio leader in 1987, finishing in the league’s top 5 for that stat in 3 later seasons. I think he’d be in the 430-440 career wins range if he had spent his career on the types of teams that pitchers like Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux had played on.
@@jimbodestroyer1324walks mean nothing if you’re that dominant eveeywhere else. Yeah he might walk a guy, but then he’s striking out the next 2. You wouldn’t take into consideration for someone hitting 320 with 30 HRs but had 200 strikeouts on the season, would you?
I’m glad you chose Pedro Martinez as number one. Having seen a number of his games, his dominance was off the charts. He pitched with swagger having the insanely good stuff to back it up. He had a chip on his shoulder left over from the dodgers passing on him thinking him too small to be a starter like his brother Ramon. He spent the rest of his career proving them wrong. Pedro has freakishly long double jointed fingers, which enabled him to excel with any pitch, including a devastating change that came from so far back in his hand. To watch Pedro pitch was a beautiful experience.
@@brianpolet4043 The Phils scored 3.13 runs per game for the year for their pitchers; for Carlton they scored 3.83. This is what Joe Posnanski said of Carlton versus Grove: Steve Carlton: .574 winning percentage, 115 ERA+. Lefty Grove: .680 winning percentage, 148 ERA+. That doesn’t seem especially close, does it? Carlton was a great pitcher, no doubt, but this is a bit like someone asking for the best lefty hitters ever, and someone picking Rod Carew over Babe Ruth.
@@edgibbs3229 I watched the Tigers vs Cardinals World Series with the pitching match up of Bob Gibson and the last 30 game winner Danny McClain, god damn classic.
He was honorable mention where he belongs, top 10 not top 5. And I'm a die hard Cards fan. My list almost identical Pedro Johnson Clemons Maddux Koufax Mentions Kershaw Seaver Gibson Ryan
I agree, started watching baseball in 1990. Saw 5 of these guys on the list pitch, nobody was quite like Pedro. He’s the best I’ve ever seen. The Big Unit is next. I take playoffs into account so even though I’m a Dodgers and Kershaw fan, he’s just not there but still great. Not just the playoff performances but sometimes you just have to use the eye test. It was Pedro.
eye test. then u blind the kershaw curve.... and want stats id blow u out of water 2.49 era 17 year career best in live ball era for starting pitcher 2nd ford 2.76 quarter of run 8 top 3 in cy young 11 in top 5. not one pitcher on list has under 3 era for career ...clayton besides this year and rookie year and a 3.03 era in middle of career he has 14 years of under 3 era all these pitchers had the dominate 5 year run but kershaw is well look at stats not even close. and will have 3000 ks soon in 2700 innings oh best walk to k ratio i mean guy is top of list on everything.pitchers of 2000s dont pitch alot of innings so young win record ryan k record will never be beaten but doesnt make them the best.
@@jaydomingue9914 Kershaw is my favorite guy. Long time Dodgers fan, been following him since he was 19. You mentioned 5 year dominate runs versus Kershaws longevity. Being almost as good for longer doesn't mean you were better. You should research, Pedro is credited (based of era and ballparks) for having the 2 best seasons in baseball history, back to back. If you aren't old enough to have witnessed it, I'm telling you. Nobody, and I mean nobody was as good. Dude was hitting 98 with 4 devasting pitches with pin point control. Kershaw was great from the begining when he went 8-8 in '08 but it wasn't until he developed his slider a couple years later he started to dominate. There has only be two times in history I saw a guy pitch and just though man, I feel sorry for the hitter, they don't have a chance. One of them was Pedro and the other isn't on this list, nor would he be considered one of the greatest but he was that dominate as a reliever. Watch the '98 all star game performance, the greatest most juiced hitters of all time looked like they didn't even belong on the field with him. That's the eye test. Stats have nothing to do with that. Peak Pedro, I've never seen anything like him. Kershaw did get ripped on having 4 cy youngs in a row though, should have had that just like Maddux.
Id take Maddux all day. Especially now a days when seems like your facing 100 everyday. That sick movement on his pitches and the art of pitching and deception. Num 2 P. Martinez and #3 R. Johnson. But great video regardless!
If you haven't seen our Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez breakdowns, you'd probably enjoy them! th-cam.com/video/T8VC6l-UwpE/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/SooDs0taoFA/w-d-xo.html
watching pedro pitch with the mets was great, he was throwing 88 mph fastballs and dealing but the stubborn sob kept trying to up his velocity and everytime he got to about 91mph he got hurt again, my favorite player of all time
As impressive as these all time greats are, none of them ever came close to matching Orel Hershiser's 59 consecutive scoreless innings streak (plus 8 inn, including postseason). And Hershiser followed that streak up with one lasting 21 1/3 innings in the playoffs! It's hard to imagine that streak ever getting surpassed. And no, I'm not claiming that Orel Hershiser should be on this list, just that his particular feat might be the most impressive within the pitching realm in history.
Sandy Koufax ! Nothing to talk about !!! When you consider he was diagnosed with arthritis in his pitching elbow after the 64 season and his last two seasons, he was 53 -17 with a 1.84 ERA … 700 strikeouts and 54 complete games !! You might want to read that again ! Not to mention he won game five and game seven on two days rest in the World Series against the twins pitching seven innings in game five and nine in game seven !! there is nothing to talk about Sandy Koufax is the greatest pitcher of all time
Koufax was great, no doubt. But to be fair, Koufax, unlike many of the other pitchers mentioned here, was the beneficiary of a 15" high mound. This was a huge advantage for pitchers in the 60's. In 1968, they lowered the mound to 10" because pitching was dominating the game too much. I suspect that with a 10" mound he would not have put up those numbers.
@@brianpolet4043 well yeah he did have the advantage but how come nobody else put up those numbers ? Bob Gibson did one year but nobody else put up numbers like Colfax, and they all have the same advantage
This is a list that I took great pains to compile, and I think has a better grasp of historical as well as theoretical analysis. there is no meaningful way to much separate Walter Johnson, Lefty Gove and Roger Clemens. The guys in the video were right. Clemens peak was a little lower. And at least the guys in the video admit that they weight peak more heavily. BUT it is a one dimensional (efficiency) which is why Pedro is over-rated. In context, Walter Johnson from 1912-16 set an incredible standard that unless you understand it will go unnoticed. Maybe the smartest man who ever lived, John Stuart Mill said "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." On Liberty (1859) chapter. 2. While the pitchers selected by the committee were among the best, there was nobody before Sandy Koufax, and that is parochial. Baseball is an old game and human beings have not evolved as much or as quickly as the authors would pretend. ." ...................................PEAK-5..... ROTC GOAT .......SCORE 1. Walter Johnson 395 388 783 2. Lefty Grove 379 392 771 3. Roger Clemens 368 395 763 4. Randy Johnson 381 378 759 5. Cy Young 371 384 755 6. Pedro Martinez 380 371 751 7. Pete Alexander 377 372 749 8. Tom Seaver 350 376 726 9. Kid Nichols 340 383 723 10. Greg Maddux 367 351 718 11. Christy Mathewson 366 346 712 12. Curt Schilling 349 361 710 13. Clayton Kershaw 344 349 693 14. Bob Gibson 362 322 684 15. Phil Niekro 338 325 663 16. Justin Verlander 293 369 662 17. Roy Halliday 320 330 650 17. Max Scherzer 332 318 650 19. Bert Blyleven 294 355 649 20. Mike Mussina 264 375 639 21. Stan Coveleski 346 277 623 22. Robin Roberts 344 275 619 23. Zack Grienke 258 360 618 24. Ferguson Jenkins 291 323 614 25. Bret Saberhagen 308 304 612
It all just depends on what metrics one includes and how much weight is assigned to each. The closest thing one strive for is who was best in their era. Anything beyond that, while fun, is much more opinion than fact.
This from Joe Posnansk: You will ask why I bring this up. Well, here’s why: I think Lefty Grove is the most underrated player in baseball history. Why? Because he’s the one player I know who is permanently underrated. It doesn’t matter how many people point out that he might be the best pitcher in baseball history. It doesn’t matter how many times you point out his preposterous numbers. It doesn’t matter. He stays in the shadows of baseball history. Here are the latest results from an ESPN poll on the best left-handed pitcher of all time (pointed out by brilliant reader Mickey): 1. Sandy Koufax, 58% 2. Randy Johnson, 20% 3. Warren Spahn, 9% 4. Steve Carlton, 8% 5. Lefty Grove, 5% Now, look, all five of those pitchers were great. And this is not a poll of baseball experts of anything, this is everyone - hardcore baseball fans, softcore baseball fans (?), people who think every fly ball is a home run, people who scream balk when a pitcher whirls to throw to second, kids who have been following baseball since May of 2007, people who have not seen a baseball game since 1973 and wonder why there aren’t be more players like Felix Milan. And so, you can understand the results. Koufax has become mythical. Unit is about to win 300. Spahn is the answer to the trivia question, Which lefty won the most games? Carlton, well, he was called “Lefty” and he played more recently and more people have probably heard of him than Grove. Which is bloody remarkable, I would just like to point out: Steve Carlton: .574 winning percentage, 115 ERA+. Lefty Grove: .680 winning percentage, 148 ERA+. That doesn’t seem especially close, does it? Carlton was a great pitcher, no doubt, but this is a bit like someone asking for the best lefty hitters ever, and someone picking Rod Carew over Babe Ruth. The thing about Grove is not just that he’s better than anyone on the list. He beats all of them at their own game. What I mean is, well, Steve Carlton is probably best known for his amazing 1972 season, when he won 27 games for a last place team. It’s one of the greatest seasons in baseball history: Most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio. Incredible. Well, Grove probably had two or three years that were better than that. Take 1930 - which was not Grove’s best season - he had the most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio, best WHIP and, oh yeah, he also led the league in saves. I realize it was a different era, and saves were not even a statistic. However, I would like to say that again: He also led the league in saves. Sandy Koufax is known for his great peak from 1963-66. And it was remarkable. He had a 1.86 ERA over those four years, and had more strikeouts than innings pitched. But, you have to point out that he was pitching in one of the greatest pitching parks ever, from a mound roughly the height of the Chrysler Building, in the greatest pitcher time since Deadball. Truth is, Grove’s peak from 1929-1932 might have been even better. Koufax: 92-27, .782 winning percentage, 1.86 ERA, 1,192 innings, 1,228 Ks, 172 ERA+. Grove: 104-25, .806 winning percentage, 2.56 ERA, 1,146 innings, 742 Ks, 176 ERA+. You will notice that Grove’s ERA is quite a bit higher, but his ERA+ is better and his winning percentage is better. That’s because he pitched in a hitters’ ballpark in a hitters’ era. But here’s the truly amazing thing: While those four years more or less make up Koufax’s career, Grove went 24-8 the year BEFORE his peak, and he went 24-8 the year AFTER his peak. Spahn’s calling card was durability and his ability to win games. He won 20 or more game an amazing 13 times. Incredible. But here’s how many times he won more than 23 games in a season: Zero. Grove did it five times. Spahn was an amazing old pitcher - from age 35 to 42 he won 167 games with a 119 ERA+. Grove, from ages 35-39, reinvented himself as a pitcher. And he went 83-41 with a 174 ERA+. Think about that for a minute … for those five years, as an old pitcher, Grove had a better ERA+ than Sandy Koufax’s peak." forums.collectors.com/discussion/724129/underrated-players This is what maybe the finest expert about the subject now working says. And we both agree. I cannot see how anybody could pick Koufax or the other three pitchers over Grove. If the guys who put this flawed list up want to defend it, I am ready, and I am certainly ready to deconstruct Pedro Martinez and show how much better Grove was than your numero uno. i
@@J-PLeigh8409 If Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are not on the list Bob Gibson never should be. I rank him 14th probably dropping to 15th behind Justin Verlander after this season. He had one ERA title in his career. He was 25th in WAR. He was great in the World Series but so were Lefty Grove and Water Johnson by far the two biggest snubs on this list even thugh it was not too bad given that four of the top ten pitchers of all time, Maddux Johnson, Clemens and Martinez are on it. But the two best pitchers Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson are not It is just the modern conceit that clouds their thinking
The first min of the video, Walter Johnson and Bob Gibson didn't make this list. Then next they say with all due respect, Nolan Ryan didn't make it. How exclusive is this list?
1. Cy Young 2. Walter Johnson 3. Roger Clemens 4. Kid Nichols 5. Grover Alexander 6. Lefty Grove 7. Tom Seaver 8. Greg Maddix 9. Randy Johnson 10. Christy Mathewson
because he didnt pitch 27 years. no one will ever pitch that long again. who has greatest era in live ball era, who has greatest whip in live ball era. and has 3000k in 2700 inn almost 3000k. best k to walk ratio.17 years only 3 years era over 3 rookie season then a 3.03 in middle of career and this year. not one pitcher u all say has era under 3 for career.. omg clayton is best starting pitcher in live ball era. before his last couple years with back problems and still pitching under 3era second on list is whitey ford at 2.76 i think maybe 2.75 clayton 2.37 three years ago and still 2.49 now tha is not even close omg has best era by quarter of a run and has .700 winning percentage 14-6 record avg per year in 17 year career. ill debate anyone on best starting pitcher since 1920 live ball era and will win.
@@SonicCollectionsPS2Noisesz I will take Baseball reference over FanGraph any day. It is simply too presumptuous to take a very good statistic like FIP and have it replace a better one RA9. Ryan is without question the most over-rated pitcher of all-time. He deserves to be in the HOF but no where near the best pitcher. These guys got that much right
Wanna see some of Ryan's? 1980-81 Astros: Ryan, 11 earned runs in 28 IP. Teammate Joe Niekro, 0 ER in 18 IP. 1986 Astros: Ryan, 6 ER in 14 IP. Teammate Mike Scott, 1 ER in 18 IP.
Pretty sure it’s Nolan Ryan. Don’t think you can make a clear case for anybody since they’re all so great. But if there’s one you’re gonna make a case for the 1 spot, it’s Ryan
@@dapper892 why’s that? He would of been a multiple time Cy young with todays metrics for awards. Cy youngs we’re given to the pitchers with the best records back in his day. Todays game realizes how flawed that is. Nolan has 3-4 seasons he would of been cy young easily going off era, WAR and SOs like we do today. Probably even more
@@JsalMMA1 multiple time cy young winner? When? What year? I’ve had this debate a dozen times. Modern stats don’t help him at all. There isn’t one year he was “robbed”. You could make a case for 1981, maybe 77. But that’s it. 81 was his strongest case. Despite the strikeouts and the low hits per 9 etc …. He was atrocious with command. Walked a ton of batters and was terrible with runners on, runners ran wild on him. His job is run prevention. Period. He pitched in a pitchers era and simply was not as dominant as we “feel” like he was, with an era+ of 112+ he was literally only 12% better than his peers. Seaver and Palmer for example were around 125. There were better pitchers in his era. And other eras for that matter. Hes simply not in the top tier. He pitched 27 years and STILL only has a 81 WAR. A cumulative stat. Fergie schilling and mussina are higher.
Pretty good list. I agree Pedro is number 1 in the modern era. While it is difficult and subjective to compare across eras of baseball, I think the top 6 ever all played a long time ago. Walter Johnson, Grover Alexander, Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Christy Mathewson, and Lefty Grove. Pedro 7, Seaver 8, Clemens 9, Maddux 10, Johnson 11, Kershaw 12, Koufax 13, Gibson 14.
Fair enough, although I would argue that mariano rivera was the best pitcher of all time. Despite his path in the game, which some could argue Kershaw and Seaver weren't even serving the same role as pitchers either.
@@jimtruscott5670 What fact? Because Ryan in the GOAT discussion certainly aint fact. You cant have pitcher with ERA just above replacement level in that discussion.
I think at this point, Kershaw should be ahead of Maddux, but imo, the top 5 is PERFECT in who is in it, I don’t think Martinez is number 1 because he didn’t have the longevity of the others
This is a solid list for the modern era, but to not include a single golden era name seems a big miss. Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Warren Spahn, and no Bob Gibson either?
Interesting piece. I've never seen an actual deep dive breakdown of the top tier like this. I wonder if a Koufax and Gibson lose some ranking points just cuz they pitched mainly before the mounds were lowered and strike zones tightened. As a youngster in the 70s and 80s, Nolan Ryan seemed to be the marquee name of that era, to go along with his coveted baseball card. After Ryan, I recall Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer, Steve Carlton, and Don Sutton getting much of the hype. I don't follow the game as closely now, but I wonder why the 'finesse' non-power arms like a Greg Maddox seem such a scarcity nowadays(or am I wrong)? Do scouts focus predominately on power arms?
The game has certainly shifted in terms of the physicality of the average big leaguer. It's hard to compare pitchers from the 70s with those of today, similarly when comparing steroid era pitchers to those of today. The competition within the game has certainly shifted and as a whole has improved. As for velocity, it's simply harder to hit. Teams like it because it's better to predict performance and as a whole, it does perform better than the command and movement guys of yesteryear. Strikeouts are more reliable than balls in play and the higher the velocity, the strikeout rate increases. There are still examples of finesse pitchers in Rich Hill and Kyle Hendricks, but much rarer to see arms like those succeed against today's hitters. As for scouts, we host several Pro Days a year in which our athletes will throw bullpens in front of scouts from every MLB org. Out of the hundreds of athletes who have participated, the only ones to be signed by affiliated orgs have been those throwing mid-upper 90s. It's just what they're looking for. Thanks for the comment!
@@treadathletics you make the contemporary pitchers are better claim but you do not quantify it and there is a way or ways. Remember baseball is not like track ad field where the goal is simple. It is a highly nuanced game that has been developing for over 150 years.
With all due respect this was not a "deep dive." It was a contemporary lovefest. And the top four belong in any top ten because they are great: Maddux, R. Johnson, Clemens and Martinez. And Seaver belongs and Kershaw is just on the outside looking in. I will tell you what is wrong with this method: it is all efficiency, no thought to productivity. And I will give you a "deep dive." It just happens that Lefty Grove pitched 2826.2 innings from 1928-39 (excluding a sore arm season in 1934.) and Pedro pitched 2827.1 innings in his career. This is a comparison ...................................Grove..........Martinez Win lost record...........235-82.........219-100 ERA.............................2.73..............2.93.... ERA+...........................168................154.... WAR.............................95.7..............86.1... WAR oer 250................8.46...............7.61... And yeah Martinez had the two best seasons of all time back to back in 1999-2000. Grove had a 59-9 record in 1930 nd 1931. He was 46-4 in one 50 decision period from the middle of July 1930 through September 27 1931. He had a 2.03 ERA in his four losses. The Americn League ERA for that time was 4.53. He pitched batting practice the last game of the season against the New York Yankees to warm his arm for the World Series. If he had not pitched that game (which no modern pitcher would be asked to do) he would have had a sub 2.00 ERA, the only one in the American League between the two world wars; he would have been the only pitcher to ever win 30 games qnd have a .900+ winning percentage at 31-3. Also there are 10 categories I particularly value that rank pitchers with in a season they are: Wins, Winning percentage, ERA, ERA+, Strikeouts, SPG (strikeouts per game), FIP (fielding independent pitching), WHIP (walks+hits by innings pitched), SO/Walk ratio and WAR for pitchers. in 1930 and 31 Grove lead the league in 19 out 20 categories for the two years, all ten in 1930 and nine out of ten in 1931 losing only the SG title. The problem is these guys probably do not know that much about MLB history and suffer under the conceit that modern players are necessarily better than older ones for which they have no evidence other than the modern hubris.
@@treadathletics I would like a direct answer from you on this. In Fastball Joe Posnanski said that bob Feller threw 107.3 mph in 1940 in Chicago's Lincoln Park racing against a otorcycle. The bike was going 86 miles per our and feller released the ball 10 feet after the bike passed and his pitch arrived at the target about two feet ahead of the bike. According to math taught in seventh grade that is about 107.3 miles per hour if the bike was going 86 mph. Now in 1946 Feller was tested again with a Lumiline Chronograph and his velocity measured was about the same. It was 98.6 terminal velocity which means over the hitting area where the light beam measured it Posnanski asks when comparing Feller to Jesse Owens , the sprinter also from Cleveland Posnsnski note:d "that Bob Feller started in the 1930's and 40's, essentially the same time Jesse Owens started winning gold medals in Germany. And at that point there was no doubt that Jesse Owens was a quantum leap forward in track. They looked at Jesse Owens and said you are not going to get any faster than that; you are not going to run any faster, get any stronger than that. that is the limit of what human beings could do, and of course it wasn't. The times that Jessie Owens ran in 1936 are high school times now, and that is the way it is accross the board and every record has been smashed "So if you brought that along in baseball if Bob Feller was throwing 98.6, 70 years later people woud be throwing 120 mph hour How come nobody has found a way to throw a fastball 20 miles an hour faster?" www.google.com/search?q=Fastball+the+documentaary&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS755US755&oq=Fastball+the+documentaary&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRhAMggIAhAAGA0YHtIBCjEyNDQ3ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:01321ef8,vid:SIhQlAass2Y,st:0 (23:18-24:18 for the quote And the question is why did Feller "only" average 7.34 strikeouts per game of per nine innings in 1940 when he essentally could throw harder than today's pitcher who average about 93.4 mph www.google.com/search?sca_esv=595190714&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS755US755&sxsrf=AM9HkKkhuGLznXNx2t8Nfnd3KnyK-PIVgw:1704234014712&q=MLB+average+fastball+velocity+by+year&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiflr643r-DAxUxj4kEHQWjDZYQ1QJ6BAg4EAE&biw=1097&bih=544&dpr=1.75 Yet we can see that strikeout averages per game have gone way up per game If you look at baseball Reference, you will find that kthe American Leaague averaged 3.82 strikeouts per game in 1940. From 2019-2023 the American League has average 8.62 SPG by pitchers with an average 93 mile per hour fastballs in their arsenals www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/pitch.shtml. I think there is a lot more than velo. There are other culprits adrift like a lack of plate discipline and a desire to hit a homer every swing.
Bob Feller was not throwing 107 in 1943. Could he have feasibly hit 100 in his career? Absolutely. But he wasn't sitting 107. His strikeout rate that you bring up is an excellent example of that. PitchingNinja has a great breakdown of some of those old velo recordings such as Nolan Ryan's "108". th-cam.com/video/90nI3yFMbX0/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=PitchingNinja
Koufax is by far the best. He was superb during the season, but he was Superman in the post season. Pedro called the Yankees, “my Daddy.” Is that your best?
Pedro definitely deserves it, facing all these steroid monsters, and being so dominant, and not for a short career, 18 years span maintaining such numbers.
What were the four criteria? I also noticed that Sandy Koufax was the oldest pitcher on the list: a guy that older folks saw in their youth. There is nobody before the 60's. Now the years of the late eighties though the early 2000's was the golden age of great pitching with Clemens, Maddux, jJohnson and Martinez all in my top ten . But when I listened to some of your numbers; they were face value statistics which violates the dictum of Bill James which is "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."-Bill James I heard ERA mentioned and FIP mentioned. Both have to be viewed in context. If we put hitting in the context of Hank Greenberg's, Lou Gehrig's Babe Ruth's, Jimmie Foxx's and Hack Wilson's RBI totals then all the great hitters would be from the 20's and 30's Using a control like offensive WAR puts more modern payers like Mays and Aaron and Yastzremski on equal footing. WAR put Carl Yastzremski's 1967 season on the same footing as Babe Ruth's 1927 season with a 12.6 to a 12.4 for Yaz for third and fourth highest WARs of all time for single seasons for position payer www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml So stats like WAR and standard deviation are more valuable because they follow the dictum of the late Bobby Bragan , an MLB player, manager and executive when he said on the subject of percentages; "Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentages people, you should be perfectly comfortable." which speaks to quality of the league. That way you can find league quality with out the arrogant assumption that "players are better today," a statement that generally goes unproved as if no proof is needed. Now following that advice from Mr. Bragan, Mr. James and others. I see Walter, Johnson, Lefty Grove and Roger Clemens as the three best pitchers of all time, and that Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez were in the wings for fourth ad fifth best. I had every guy in your top 7 in my top 13 except Koufax who I ranked unapologetically 65th.. But not even to mention Lefty Grove was a major flaw. He got better numbers than all six guys who made my list of the seven guys on your list. Koufax just is over-rated and you were polite to rate him that high.
I am not even looking at the video or comments. Me personally, 1. Maddux 2. Koufax. 3. Randy Johnson. 4 Mariano Rivera. 5 Bob Gibson. 6 Cy Young. 7. Pedro Martinez. 8 Whitey Ford. 9 Walter Johnson. 10 Roger Clemens
I have to say this is the best, best pitcher of all time ive seen. I just did my own n was close. Pedro Johnson Clemons Maddux Koudax Also consideration: Seaver, Kershaw, Gibson, Ryan, Carlton
How would the stats of Kershaw, Maddux, Johnson, Clemens and Martinez look if they played in an era when elite pitchers threw 15+ complete games a season?
Hilarious that he notes the honorable mentions, but has to spend far extra time on Nolan Ryan, very simply because of all the insane Ryan fans that by far OVER-value his accomplishments and completely ignore his shortcomings. Great pitcher, but he doesn't even belong in the honorable mentions for best ever. Wild Cuckoo clock fanboy fan base this guy has and its head scratching.
@@jimtruscott5670 Right.. so you got nothing. We all know his stats. Great pitcher, best strikeout pitcher ever in an incredibly long career. How about all the other numbers? His career ERA and especially his WHIP alone disqualify him from being in the top 10 all time, never mind laughably being considered number 1. Anyone who isn't outrageously biased can see that.
It’s Nolan Ryan. He was on such bad teams that one year he had a 2.28 era and was 19-16. He started pitching in the late 60s and pitched through the roid era. If he wasn’t on such crappy teams we would have at least 400 wins. It’s not even close actually when I think about it.
@@treadathletics just strikeouts then? Just era adjusted for history then? There is no single stat but Ryan was just dominant almost his entire career. It’s either him or Randy Johnson. If the thought it who at one single point in time was the best pitcher to ever do it…that’s when Koufax comes into the equation.
@treadathletics I feel like you grew up rooting for teams Ryan was instrumental in stopping in their tracks. Declaring he doesn't belong in the same category as these phenoms as a start to the video just makes the whole thing an obviously biased argument against Ryan. That's ok - you like who you like. That said, a lot of the arguments you made to justify these other pitchers' superiority can be applied to Ryan, too. Your argument against his inclusion is based on simple stats with none of the context you gave the others. You're not a Ryan fan and that's fine. It is disingenuous hipster bs to exclude him entirely, though. Why top 7 and not top 10? I don't disagree with the pitchers you included but it's not like they are so godly that the next 3 aren't even close. You're basically saying Michael Jordan doesn't deserve to be in the running for greatest basketball player of all time. Arguments like these just ruin your credibility as an expert.
Like all but Clemens. He was fading at age 35 and won his sixth CY at 41. Too much steroid use. Fact, and my opinion. Get rid of him, move everybody else up one spot in the same order you have them in and bring in Bob Gibson to the #7 spot. A very close call over Ryan but I like Gibsons 56 shutouts and 255 complete games, and 17 strikeouts in game one of the 68 WS. Other than those adjustments your list is quite good. Thanks
Sorry I would never have Kershaw on any list 6 inn pitcher.My greatest pitchers are Spahn,Gibson,Marichal,Koufax,Carlton,Ford,Drysdale,Seaver,Ryan,Palmer and Hunter
Its a good list I respect what you have done here, however, I'm curious to how ERA+ is calculated. I find it hard to believe that Spahn, Carlton, or Ryan isn't higher on this list in that category or in WAR. At the turn of the millennial, A lot of analysist would had said that Carlton was the best LH pitcher ever before Clayton and Johnson's achievements. Just his 72 season should have been some kind of record for WAR considering the won loss record of the team he was on. Also, Ryan won the league era title in 87 with a 8 and 16 record (2.76). Not much more you can do there unless you're Ohtani. Okay Ryan and or the other two mentioned probably aren't the goat. But they should be in that conversation as more than a footnote. I also would like to know how you calculate WAR and ERA+ can you point to a good website that shows this? I can't help but think some of it is subjective and clearly doesn't tell the entire story.
Like most of these lists you miss the greatest pitcher of all time, Robert Moses Grove. Here is my argument that to the rational mind should sway your opinion. lefty Grove pitched "exactly the same number of innings in his best eleven years (1928-39 excluding 1934) as Martinez did in his career (2827). Here is a comparison of their numbers: .........................................Lefty Grove..................Pedro Martinez Win lost record...................235-82...........................219-100...... ERA....................................2.73...............................2.93............. ERA+..................................168...............................,154.............. WAR...................................95.7.................................86.1.......... WAR per 250......................8.46................................7.61........... Grove is also the only pitcher since 1920 to have two peaks over 40.0 (46 from 1929-33 and 42.6 from 1935-39). He won nine ERA titles, nine ERA+ titles; eight FIP titles; eight strikeout to walk ratio titles. Ignorance of baseball history and the modern conceit without evidence to back it up are the general reason that Grove gets left off. I can compare Grove with any of the other six pitchers and only one, Roger Clemens stands up to him. If you looked at numbers then you picked the wrong ones. Here is a video that does a better job (this one was pretty good except for the Grove slight) here is a better one about lefties th-cam.com/video/P_iI4Gu0usw/w-d-xo.html
He simply was not in the other pitchers class. This is still a flawed list made up by folks who either do not know baseball history or do not respect the past. Lefty Grove, not Randy Johnson, is the greatest lefty of all time.Ryan's 324-292 record and 112 ERA+ do him in..
@@diegojaime1565 Everybody had high strikeouts in that era, but he had probably the two best seasons ever back to back in MLB history. But this list is flawed because Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are not on it. It is an excellent recount of the top post integration pitchers. Serious scholars always rate both Johnson and Grove in the top five of all-time.
It's Walter Johnson. The problem with Pedro is six or seven seasons pitching 30 games, 7 innings/game just isn't good enough. It's shocking how light his stats are really. I've often wondered how older pitchers would do if you retroactively ONLY counted the first 100 pitches of their games. I suspect they'd have around 10% less decisions, 10% lower ERA and around 25-50 points higher on their winning percentages. But that's just guess work. The 90s/00s were just such a weird, weird time statistically in baseball. My top ten: 1. Walter Johnson 2. Tom Seaver 3. Lefty Grove 4. Roger Clemens 5. Greg Maddux 6. Cy Young 7. Clayton Kershaw 8. Sandy Koufax 9. Bob Gibson 10. Grover Alexander. Give or take, you could switch one of two a spot up or down and I wouldn't care. I dunno maybe you could put Martinez around 10th if you really wanted.
Koufax consistently outperformed Nolan Ryan on a year to year basis. The longevity comments was regarding if Koufax could've continued at that level of performance.
I don't get how Steve Carlton never makes these lists. He checks all the boxes. He's at least ahead of Ryan, Gibson and Koufax. Not even honorable mention seems crazy.
Just depends on what metrics you stress. I wouldn't put him above Gibson or Koufax, though. But that's just me. Interestingly, Carlton credited Gibson with teaching him how to throw a slider when they were teammates in STL.
That's not "high". It's 3rd lowest among live ball 300 game winners. Only Seaver & Grove have a lower ERA & Grove pitched entirely before integration & Seaver entirely after expansion. Spahn won 301 of his games after integration & before expansion. Spahn also won 20 games (13) as many times as Grove & Seaver did combined.
Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, and Greg Maddox I would all put ahead of Pedro Martinez hands down. Ryan also pitched 27 seasons... he was dominating for years... his peak was his whole career. Martinez's "7 year peak" is MID at best.
Walter Johnson & Warren Spahn are the 2 most complete (including hitting & fielding) pitchers of all-time. Spahn has the most career SHO (63) of any live ball (post 1920) 300 game winner. Tom Seaver is the greatest expansion (post 1961) pitcher & has the lowest career ERA (2.86) of all live ball 300 game winners. Walter Johnson won 25 games with an ERA under 2.00 in 7 consecutive seasons. He won 38 1-0 games & won 20 on a losing team 5X & no other pitcher did it more than twice since 1900. As a hitter he had a career total of 41 triples which is more than ARod, Pujols, Griffey & Cabrera each had in their careers. There should be at least 2 top 10s. Keep in mind that pitchers are first & foremost baseball PLAYERS. Therefore, pitchers who were not batters or did not play entire games need not apply for all-time top 10s. MLB NL/AL (since 1901) Top 10: 1- W.Johnson 2- W.Spahn 3- C.Mathewson 4- L.Grove. 5- G.C.Alexander 6- B.Feller 7- T.Seaver 8- M.Brown 9- S.Koufax 10- R.Roberts. All-time all top level leagues: 1- W.Johnson 2- W.Spahn 3- C.Mathewson 4- L.Grove 5- G.C.Alexander 6- B.Feller 7- T.Seaver 8- S.Paige 9- C.Young 10- A.Spalding.
Pretty good list, but I’m not as high on Spahn. Not top ten in any major compilation stat (WAR, JAWS, WAR7, adj WAR7, S-JAWS, or WAA. Also 35th in WAR/162. Great durability and longevity, but his peak has him outside of my top 16.
@@stevenhattrick9495 Spahn won 20 games THIRTEEN times. His career ERA (3.09) is 3rd all-time among live ball 300 games winners but No.1 (Seaver) won all his games AFTER expansion & No. 2 (Grove) won all his games BEFORE integration. Spahn won 301 of his 363 after integration & before expansion pitching in the greatest MLB of all time which was the NL of the 1950s. As you might summize, I have little use for meaningless theoretical formulas when evaluating athletics especially those like baseball which have always been driven by massive statistical tracking.
@@nobodyaskedbut Good points. But those stats I listed account for variations year to year in quality of players and era more accurately than just using expansion, live ball, or integration as general milestones. He took 5243.2 innings to win 363 games while Grove won 300 games in 1303 fewer innings. His ERA+, which is era adjusted based on "massive statistical tracking", is 13th among 300 game winners, or 110th among all starters with at least 1000 innings. He won 1 Cy Young in 21 years, behind 21 other pitchers. He has a 1.19 career WHIP, 150th best all time. No one doubts his consistency or longevity, or the total value of his career. But in terms of level of dominance over a 1, 5, or even 9 year period, there are likely more players on that list ahead of Spahn than just Walter Johnson.
Pitchers are so coddled today with pitch counts and relief pitchers bought in the game at the drop of a hat that it is very unfair to compare pitchers of the past who were expected to get themselves out of tight situations at least if they were regarded as good pitcher and routinely expected to pitch at least 200 innings a year with pitchers of the present. The only way I would regard a great pitcher of today with the Tom Seavers, Jim Palmers, Warren Spahns, Water Johnsons, Bob Fellers, et cetera, et cetera of the past would be if that pitcher puts up Sandy Koufax numbers year in and year out.
Saw Bob Gibson and Nolan got left off and knew this had to be a joke. I know it’s hard to compare eras but that would be like saying Babe Ruth and Willie Mays aren’t top 10.
Tread woke up and chose violence today.
This is genuinely a stupid list. You can argue it how you want but they almost made this list to upset people and get them commenting in here lol. Good for engagement. Make sure to like everyones comments btw its good for them
@@pumpbustersv1who’s your number one??
@@adamnaliwajko628 Sandy was too mechanically ahead of his peers to be this far down this list. Counting numbers stats mean little to me with his peak so high and only shortened due to injury plenty of modern pitchers get and move past no issue. He was a god among boys.
Randys probably the most terrifying pitcher to ever take the mound. Dude was so violent out there he murdered a bird.
IMO flip a coin between those two and you can't mess up.
@@adamnaliwajko628 I’d go with Randy
ERA+ is not a counting stat though. Koufax's 132 ERA+ is tied for 44th all time.
Just a reminder that Nolan Ryan has the all-time career lowest allowed Batting Average (.204), Slugging % (.298), and HR/9 (0.5), of any starting pitcher in the modern era.
As ridiculous as his strikeout numbers are, also keep in mind that they were achieved during a time during which the league strikeout percentage was nearly half of what it is today. For example, his 1973 season strikeout total would be *649 Ks* at today’s strikeout rate of 23.2%.
All while regularly pitching 150-200+ pitches per start, frequently through pain, injury, & fatigue, and until his age 46 season. Not his fault he played on crappy teams with poor coaching, hitting, and fielding. 🐐
Update: For those of you bringing up the 112 ERA+: do you agree that as a pitcher, the defense behind you matters as it pertains to run prevention? If so, look at FIP. Nolan’s? The all-time lowest among starting pitchers with 3000+ IP (he pitched almost 5400) to debut after WWII.
Walks?
Also...the lowest amount of hits allowed per 9 innings in MLB history.
And 7 career no-hitters (#1 all time), and 12 1-hitters " (#1 all time, tied).
Ryan was though, very wild.
If he had respectable run production on his teams, he could have eclipsed 400 career wins.
@@bwink23 True! Nolan was downright *absurdly* effective at limiting hits. To add to what you said:
He also had the most 2-hitters (18) and 3- hitters (31) of all time.
In becoming the all-time H/9 leader, he led the league in H/9 12 times, which no one else has done more than 6 times in their career.
(Keep in mind he remains the all-time H/9 leader despite the league batting average during his career [1969-1993] coming out to around .260, compared to today’s .243)
As wild as he sometimes was, it didn’t remain that way throughout the entirety of his career. He led the league in WHIP twice during his tenure with the Rangers, and was actually the strikeouts-to-walks ratio leader in 1987, finishing in the league’s top 5 for that stat in 3 later seasons.
I think he’d be in the 430-440 career wins range if he had spent his career on the types of teams that pitchers like Roger Clemens or Greg Maddux had played on.
And also throw mean punches! You better think twice before charging the mound.
@@jimbodestroyer1324walks mean nothing if you’re that dominant eveeywhere else. Yeah he might walk a guy, but then he’s striking out the next 2. You wouldn’t take into consideration for someone hitting 320 with 30 HRs but had 200 strikeouts on the season, would you?
I’m glad you chose Pedro Martinez as number one. Having seen a number of his games, his dominance was off the charts. He pitched with swagger having the insanely good stuff to back it up. He had a chip on his shoulder left over from the dodgers passing on him thinking him too small to be a starter like his brother Ramon. He spent the rest of his career proving them wrong. Pedro has freakishly long double jointed fingers, which enabled him to excel with any pitch, including a devastating change that came from so far back in his hand. To watch Pedro pitch was a beautiful experience.
I'd definitely want him in my starting rotation, but don't consider him the best ever.
It’s stupidity to say he’s the best pitcher ever 😂it’s ridiculous he’s not better than Clemens
@@TheSands83 Many (although not me) consider him to be the greatest. I would say neither, but would invite both to training camp.
@@TheSands83roger is badass but so is his character as well so I have randy as the goat cus he's the most feared imo😂
@@nassiglutt6587 Randy didn’t have the longevity
Steve Carlton “Lefty” over 4136 strike outs, Cy Young Award four times: in 1972, 1977, 1980 and 1982.
Absolutely.
Carlton won 27 games in 1972. The Phillies won 59 games that year. NOBODY can touch that kind of importance to a team.
😲 @@brianpolet4043
@@brianpolet4043 The Phils scored 3.13 runs per game for the year for their pitchers; for Carlton they scored 3.83.
This is what Joe Posnanski said of Carlton versus Grove:
Steve Carlton: .574 winning percentage, 115 ERA+.
Lefty Grove: .680 winning percentage, 148 ERA+.
That doesn’t seem especially close, does it? Carlton was a great pitcher, no doubt, but this is a bit like someone asking for the best lefty hitters ever, and someone picking Rod Carew over Babe Ruth.
I actually have no disagreements with this list. Great job!
No Bob Gibson…..give me a break.
Yeah that’s so ridiculous
When a man makes the league move back the mound because of how good he is, that means something.
@@edgibbs3229 I watched the Tigers vs Cardinals World Series with the pitching match up of Bob Gibson and the last 30 game winner Danny McClain, god damn classic.
I was just thinking, he better be on here. He was the new Mathewson.
He was honorable mention where he belongs, top 10 not top 5. And I'm a die hard Cards fan. My list almost identical
Pedro
Johnson
Clemons
Maddux
Koufax
Mentions
Kershaw
Seaver
Gibson
Ryan
I agree, started watching baseball in 1990.
Saw 5 of these guys on the list pitch, nobody was quite like Pedro. He’s the best I’ve ever seen. The Big Unit is next. I take playoffs into account so even though I’m a Dodgers and Kershaw fan, he’s just not there but still great. Not just the playoff performances but sometimes you just have to use the eye test. It was Pedro.
eye test. then u blind the kershaw curve.... and want stats id blow u out of water 2.49 era 17 year career best in live ball era for starting pitcher 2nd ford 2.76 quarter of run 8 top 3 in cy young 11 in top 5. not one pitcher on list has under 3 era for career ...clayton besides this year and rookie year and a 3.03 era in middle of career he has 14 years of under 3 era all these pitchers had the dominate 5 year run but kershaw is well look at stats not even close. and will have 3000 ks soon in 2700 innings oh best walk to k ratio i mean guy is top of list on everything.pitchers of 2000s dont pitch alot of innings so young win record ryan k record will never be beaten but doesnt make them the best.
@@jaydomingue9914 Kershaw is my favorite guy. Long time Dodgers fan, been following him since he was 19. You mentioned 5 year dominate runs versus Kershaws longevity. Being almost as good for longer doesn't mean you were better. You should research, Pedro is credited (based of era and ballparks) for having the 2 best seasons in baseball history, back to back. If you aren't old enough to have witnessed it, I'm telling you. Nobody, and I mean nobody was as good. Dude was hitting 98 with 4 devasting pitches with pin point control. Kershaw was great from the begining when he went 8-8 in '08 but it wasn't until he developed his slider a couple years later he started to dominate. There has only be two times in history I saw a guy pitch and just though man, I feel sorry for the hitter, they don't have a chance. One of them was Pedro and the other isn't on this list, nor would he be considered one of the greatest but he was that dominate as a reliever. Watch the '98 all star game performance, the greatest most juiced hitters of all time looked like they didn't even belong on the field with him. That's the eye test. Stats have nothing to do with that. Peak Pedro, I've never seen anything like him. Kershaw did get ripped on having 4 cy youngs in a row though, should have had that just like Maddux.
I saw Pedro pitching against Montreal Expos as a LA Dodger relief pitcher. I knew right then he is one of the best pitchers!
Id take Maddux all day. Especially now a days when seems like your facing 100 everyday. That sick movement on his pitches and the art of pitching and deception. Num 2 P. Martinez and #3 R. Johnson. But great video regardless!
@@HT-sm9dm without a doubt,can't go wrong with Pedro either, but for me I take maddux. He is my fav pitcher all time.
I might take Seaver over Maddux, but would like both in my rotation.
Tom Glavine for me. I love control pitchers.
People put down Nolan Ryan because of his walks. HE PITCHED FOR 27 years🤦
Great video! You should follow it up by giving some technical and mechanical analysis as well as so we can really see what made these legends tick
If you haven't seen our Roger Clemens and Pedro Martinez breakdowns, you'd probably enjoy them!
th-cam.com/video/T8VC6l-UwpE/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/SooDs0taoFA/w-d-xo.html
Nolan Ryan is number one ever.It’s silly to leave him out of any group of all time greats.
Yeah, on longevity alone and speed all the way into his 40s
It's just unfortunate that other than some of those 80s Astros teams his teams were mostly trash.
Nolan Ryan threw at 158 batters and was only ever tossed from 1 game.
@@hogue3666 And how is this relevant?
Not even close.
Tom Seaver
If I had one game to win it would be Bob Gibson!
Amen
@@jerryw4471 I would take Koufax.
@@jimtruscott5670 He was definitely a great one!
Nolan Ryan holds 51 Major League records🫅
The point is he does not hold the important ones about not giving up runs and winning ball games
watching pedro pitch with the mets was great, he was throwing 88 mph fastballs and dealing but the stubborn sob kept trying to up his velocity and everytime he got to about 91mph he got hurt again, my favorite player of all time
As impressive as these all time greats are, none of them ever came close to matching Orel Hershiser's 59 consecutive scoreless innings streak (plus 8 inn, including postseason). And Hershiser followed that streak up with one lasting 21 1/3 innings in the playoffs! It's hard to imagine that streak ever getting surpassed.
And no, I'm not claiming that Orel Hershiser should be on this list, just that his particular feat might be the most impressive within the pitching realm in history.
‘68 Gibson still blows my mind.
Sandy Koufax ! Nothing to talk about !!! When you consider he was diagnosed with arthritis in his pitching elbow after the 64 season and his last two seasons, he was 53 -17 with a 1.84 ERA … 700 strikeouts and 54 complete games !! You might want to read that again ! Not to mention he won game five and game seven on two days rest in the World Series against the twins pitching seven innings in game five and nine in game seven !! there is nothing to talk about Sandy Koufax is the greatest pitcher of all time
Koufax was great, no doubt. But to be fair, Koufax, unlike many of the other pitchers mentioned here, was the beneficiary of a 15" high mound. This was a huge advantage for pitchers in the 60's. In 1968, they lowered the mound to 10" because pitching was dominating the game too much. I suspect that with a 10" mound he would not have put up those numbers.
@@brianpolet4043 well yeah he did have the advantage but how come nobody else put up those numbers ? Bob Gibson did one year but nobody else put up numbers like Colfax, and they all have the same advantage
He played in pitcher's park, his road ERA isnt that great.
Oh yeah i am ready for this
This is a list that I took great pains to compile, and I think has a better grasp of historical as well as theoretical analysis. there is no meaningful way to much separate Walter Johnson, Lefty Gove and Roger Clemens.
The guys in the video were right. Clemens peak was a little lower. And at least the guys in the video admit that they weight peak more heavily. BUT it is a one dimensional (efficiency) which is why Pedro is over-rated. In context, Walter Johnson from 1912-16 set an incredible standard that unless you understand it will go unnoticed.
Maybe the smartest man who ever lived, John Stuart Mill said "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." On Liberty (1859) chapter. 2. While the pitchers selected by the committee were among the best, there was nobody before Sandy Koufax, and that is parochial. Baseball is an old game and human beings have not evolved as much or as quickly as the authors would pretend.
."
...................................PEAK-5..... ROTC GOAT
.......SCORE
1. Walter Johnson 395 388 783
2. Lefty Grove 379 392 771
3. Roger Clemens 368 395 763
4. Randy Johnson 381 378 759
5. Cy Young 371 384 755
6. Pedro Martinez 380 371 751
7. Pete Alexander 377 372 749
8. Tom Seaver 350 376 726
9. Kid Nichols 340 383 723
10. Greg Maddux 367 351 718
11. Christy Mathewson 366 346 712
12. Curt Schilling 349 361 710
13. Clayton Kershaw 344 349 693
14. Bob Gibson 362 322 684
15. Phil Niekro 338 325 663
16. Justin Verlander 293 369 662
17. Roy Halliday 320 330 650
17. Max Scherzer 332 318 650
19. Bert Blyleven 294 355 649
20. Mike Mussina 264 375 639
21. Stan Coveleski 346 277 623
22. Robin Roberts 344 275 619
23. Zack Grienke 258 360 618
24. Ferguson Jenkins 291 323 614
25. Bret Saberhagen 308 304 612
It all just depends on what metrics one includes and how much weight is assigned to each. The closest thing one strive for is who was best in their era. Anything beyond that, while fun, is much more opinion than fact.
Best pitcher I ever seen was Steve Carlton and he could hit as well. You know, when pitchers had to bat. That to me was a complete pitcher.
You must like Shohei then lol
paly 🤡
This from Joe Posnansk:
You will ask why I bring this up. Well, here’s why: I think Lefty Grove is the most underrated player in baseball history. Why? Because he’s the one player I know who is permanently underrated. It doesn’t matter how many people point out that he might be the best pitcher in baseball history. It doesn’t matter how many times you point out his preposterous numbers. It doesn’t matter. He stays in the shadows of baseball history.
Here are the latest results from an ESPN poll on the best left-handed pitcher of all time (pointed out by brilliant reader Mickey):
1. Sandy Koufax, 58%
2. Randy Johnson, 20%
3. Warren Spahn, 9%
4. Steve Carlton, 8%
5. Lefty Grove, 5%
Now, look, all five of those pitchers were great. And this is not a poll of baseball experts of anything, this is everyone - hardcore baseball fans, softcore baseball fans (?), people who think every fly ball is a home run, people who scream balk when a pitcher whirls to throw to second, kids who have been following baseball since May of 2007, people who have not seen a baseball game since 1973 and wonder why there aren’t be more players like Felix Milan.
And so, you can understand the results. Koufax has become mythical. Unit is about to win 300. Spahn is the answer to the trivia question, Which lefty won the most games? Carlton, well, he was called “Lefty” and he played more recently and more people have probably heard of him than Grove. Which is bloody remarkable, I would just like to point out:
Steve Carlton: .574 winning percentage, 115 ERA+.
Lefty Grove: .680 winning percentage, 148 ERA+.
That doesn’t seem especially close, does it? Carlton was a great pitcher, no doubt, but this is a bit like someone asking for the best lefty hitters ever, and someone picking Rod Carew over Babe Ruth.
The thing about Grove is not just that he’s better than anyone on the list. He beats all of them at their own game. What I mean is, well, Steve Carlton is probably best known for his amazing 1972 season, when he won 27 games for a last place team. It’s one of the greatest seasons in baseball history: Most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio. Incredible.
Well, Grove probably had two or three years that were better than that. Take 1930 - which was not Grove’s best season - he had the most wins, best ERA, most strikeouts, best ERA+, best strikeout to walk ratio, best WHIP and, oh yeah, he also led the league in saves. I realize it was a different era, and saves were not even a statistic. However, I would like to say that again: He also led the league in saves.
Sandy Koufax is known for his great peak from 1963-66. And it was remarkable. He had a 1.86 ERA over those four years, and had more strikeouts than innings pitched. But, you have to point out that he was pitching in one of the greatest pitching parks ever, from a mound roughly the height of the Chrysler Building, in the greatest pitcher time since Deadball.
Truth is, Grove’s peak from 1929-1932 might have been even better.
Koufax: 92-27, .782 winning percentage, 1.86 ERA, 1,192 innings, 1,228 Ks, 172 ERA+.
Grove: 104-25, .806 winning percentage, 2.56 ERA, 1,146 innings, 742 Ks, 176 ERA+.
You will notice that Grove’s ERA is quite a bit higher, but his ERA+ is better and his winning percentage is better. That’s because he pitched in a hitters’ ballpark in a hitters’ era. But here’s the truly amazing thing: While those four years more or less make up Koufax’s career, Grove went 24-8 the year BEFORE his peak, and he went 24-8 the year AFTER his peak.
Spahn’s calling card was durability and his ability to win games. He won 20 or more game an amazing 13 times. Incredible. But here’s how many times he won more than 23 games in a season: Zero. Grove did it five times.
Spahn was an amazing old pitcher - from age 35 to 42 he won 167 games with a 119 ERA+.
Grove, from ages 35-39, reinvented himself as a pitcher. And he went 83-41 with a 174 ERA+. Think about that for a minute … for those five years, as an old pitcher, Grove had a better ERA+ than Sandy Koufax’s peak."
forums.collectors.com/discussion/724129/underrated-players
This is what maybe the finest expert about the subject now working says. And we both agree. I cannot see how anybody could pick Koufax or the other three pitchers over Grove.
If the guys who put this flawed list up want to defend it, I am ready, and I am certainly ready to deconstruct Pedro Martinez and show how much better Grove was than your numero uno.
i
Tom Glavine. No pitcher has better control than him. I love seeing pitchers with high rated control.
Respect to this list, Pedro on top & Maddux & Seaver in the mix....but did i miss Bob Gibson??? Do i need to watch again?
Gibson was an honorable mention right at the beginning of the video!
@@treadathletics yup I missed it, thanks for the heads up
@@J-PLeigh8409 If Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are not on the list Bob Gibson never should be. I rank him 14th probably dropping to 15th behind Justin Verlander after this season. He had one ERA title in his career. He was 25th in WAR. He was great in the World Series but so were Lefty Grove and Water Johnson by far the two biggest snubs on this list even thugh it was not too bad given that four of the top ten pitchers of all time, Maddux Johnson, Clemens and Martinez are on it. But the two best pitchers Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson are not It is just the modern conceit that clouds their thinking
The first min of the video, Walter Johnson and Bob Gibson didn't make this list. Then next they say with all due respect, Nolan Ryan didn't make it. How exclusive is this list?
1. Cy Young
2. Walter Johnson
3. Roger Clemens
4. Kid Nichols
5. Grover Alexander
6. Lefty Grove
7. Tom Seaver
8. Greg Maddix
9. Randy Johnson
10. Christy Mathewson
I interviewed hundreds of people via mail, many of them baseball, and overwhelmingly, the two hardest pitchers were Feller and Koufax.
That you don’t like Nolan Ryan Clayton Kershaw is a good pitcher But he’ll never reach Ryan’s records
because he didnt pitch 27 years. no one will ever pitch that long again. who has greatest era in live ball era, who has greatest whip in live ball era. and has 3000k in 2700 inn almost 3000k. best k to walk ratio.17 years only 3 years era over 3 rookie season then a 3.03 in middle of career and this year. not one pitcher u all say has era under 3 for career.. omg clayton is best starting pitcher in live ball era. before his last couple years with back problems and still pitching under 3era second on list is whitey ford at 2.76 i think maybe 2.75 clayton 2.37 three years ago and still 2.49 now tha is not even close omg has best era by quarter of a run and has .700 winning percentage 14-6 record avg per year in 17 year career. ill debate anyone on best starting pitcher since 1920 live ball era and will win.
yes, he'll never reach 2700 walks, youre correct
@@jaydomingue9914no you won’t, Nolan 27 seasons, Pedro , you got Gibson and Koufax. Kershaw is top 10 all time to me
All the comments make his argument perfectly just cuz so many different names come out grate video
Ryan>Kershaw. What's Kershaw's record in the postseason?? I'll wait.
@@SonicCollectionsPS2Noisesz I will take Baseball reference over FanGraph any day. It is simply too presumptuous to take a very good statistic like FIP and have it replace a better one RA9. Ryan is without question the most over-rated pitcher of all-time. He deserves to be in the HOF but no where near the best pitcher. These guys got that much right
Wanna see some of Ryan's?
1980-81 Astros: Ryan, 11 earned runs in 28 IP. Teammate Joe Niekro, 0 ER in 18 IP.
1986 Astros: Ryan, 6 ER in 14 IP. Teammate Mike Scott, 1 ER in 18 IP.
What's Ryan's? And why should a handful of games define the total body of work?
NOLAN RYAN⚾️🔥
pedro is not #1. how many complete games did he have. and leaving bob gibson and tom seaver is just nuts
Pedro at his peak was far and away the best pitcher of any era, and he accomplished that at the height of steroid use.
New title “greatest pitcher in the last 30 years.”
Pretty sure it’s Nolan Ryan. Don’t think you can make a clear case for anybody since they’re all so great. But if there’s one you’re gonna make a case for the 1 spot, it’s Ryan
He’s not even close.
@@dapper892 why’s that? He would of been a multiple time Cy young with todays metrics for awards. Cy youngs we’re given to the pitchers with the best records back in his day. Todays game realizes how flawed that is. Nolan has 3-4 seasons he would of been cy young easily going off era, WAR and SOs like we do today. Probably even more
@@JsalMMA1 multiple time cy young winner? When? What year? I’ve had this debate a dozen times. Modern stats don’t help him at all. There isn’t one year he was “robbed”. You could make a case for 1981, maybe 77. But that’s it. 81 was his strongest case.
Despite the strikeouts and the low hits per 9 etc …. He was atrocious with command. Walked a ton of batters and was terrible with runners on, runners ran wild on him. His job is run prevention. Period. He pitched in a pitchers era and simply was not as dominant as we “feel” like he was, with an era+ of 112+ he was literally only 12% better than his peers. Seaver and Palmer for example were around 125. There were better pitchers in his era. And other eras for that matter. Hes simply not in the top tier. He pitched 27 years and STILL only has a 81 WAR. A cumulative stat. Fergie schilling and mussina are higher.
@@dapper892 Duh.
Pretty good list. I agree Pedro is number 1 in the modern era. While it is difficult and subjective to compare across eras of baseball, I think the top 6 ever all played a long time ago. Walter Johnson, Grover Alexander, Cy Young, Kid Nichols, Christy Mathewson, and Lefty Grove. Pedro 7, Seaver 8, Clemens 9, Maddux 10, Johnson 11, Kershaw 12, Koufax 13, Gibson 14.
Koufax was a great pitcher but i think some others had longer career and better numbers not in the hall
Longer career? Maybe. Better numbers? Who?
Tom Glavine, Greg Maddox, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, and Tom Seaver were some great control pitchers.
Fair enough, although I would argue that mariano rivera was the best pitcher of all time.
Despite his path in the game, which some could argue Kershaw and Seaver weren't even serving the same role as pitchers either.
this list lost credibility the second Ryan was a noticeable mention and no mention of gibson
Ryan career ERA+ is 112. He is not in GOAT discussion.
@@KaitoMinato Nonsense. That is one stat.
@@jimtruscott5670 That's the most important stat. The main job of pitcher is run prevention and Ryan in barely above replacement level in that aspect.
@ The stat is irrelevant when related to facts.
@@jimtruscott5670 What fact? Because Ryan in the GOAT discussion certainly aint fact. You cant have pitcher with ERA just above replacement level in that discussion.
Great video, but Maddux should have been number one
Why?
@@JosephEshleman He got outs.
@@JosephEshleman He got outs.
Can you do video about the best possible pitches ever thrown? Example Randy Johnson slider, or aroldis chapman and his fastball
Have anyone here ever seen or heard of Greg Maddox?
Right. Control pitchers. By the way, I am a big Tom Glavine fan. He was another great control pitcher.
Ryan was the best I ever saw. Followed by Marichal then Johnson
@@irishledden4924 Me too .100%
Ummm
Walter Johnson?
Nolan Ryan?
I think at this point, Kershaw should be ahead of Maddux, but imo, the top 5 is PERFECT in who is in it, I don’t think Martinez is number 1 because he didn’t have the longevity of the others
STEVE CARLTON IS THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION, PERIOD
Tom Glavine, Greg Maddox, Steve Carlton, Bob Gibson, and Tom Seaver were some great control pitchers.
This is a solid list for the modern era, but to not include a single golden era name seems a big miss. Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Warren Spahn, and no Bob Gibson either?
lincecum for sure
Great vid. What editing software did you use?
Both Pedro Martinez and Randy Johnson played for the Montreal Expos and went on to bigger things after being traded.
Pedro his last year in Montreal had a 1.90 ERA, he was already at his peak with the Expos. No World Series win at that time yet though.
Interesting piece. I've never seen an actual deep dive breakdown of the top tier like this. I wonder if a Koufax and Gibson lose some ranking points just cuz they pitched mainly before the mounds were lowered and strike zones tightened.
As a youngster in the 70s and 80s, Nolan Ryan seemed to be the marquee name of that era, to go along with his coveted baseball card. After Ryan, I recall Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer, Steve Carlton, and Don Sutton getting much of the hype.
I don't follow the game as closely now, but I wonder why the 'finesse' non-power arms like a Greg Maddox seem such a scarcity nowadays(or am I wrong)? Do scouts focus predominately on power arms?
The game has certainly shifted in terms of the physicality of the average big leaguer. It's hard to compare pitchers from the 70s with those of today, similarly when comparing steroid era pitchers to those of today. The competition within the game has certainly shifted and as a whole has improved.
As for velocity, it's simply harder to hit. Teams like it because it's better to predict performance and as a whole, it does perform better than the command and movement guys of yesteryear. Strikeouts are more reliable than balls in play and the higher the velocity, the strikeout rate increases. There are still examples of finesse pitchers in Rich Hill and Kyle Hendricks, but much rarer to see arms like those succeed against today's hitters.
As for scouts, we host several Pro Days a year in which our athletes will throw bullpens in front of scouts from every MLB org. Out of the hundreds of athletes who have participated, the only ones to be signed by affiliated orgs have been those throwing mid-upper 90s. It's just what they're looking for. Thanks for the comment!
@@treadathletics you make the contemporary pitchers are better claim but you do not quantify it and there is a way or ways. Remember baseball is not like track ad field where the goal is simple. It is a highly nuanced game that has been developing for over 150 years.
With all due respect this was not a "deep dive." It was a contemporary lovefest. And the top four belong in any top ten because they are great: Maddux, R. Johnson, Clemens and Martinez. And Seaver belongs and Kershaw is just on the outside looking in.
I will tell you what is wrong with this method: it is all efficiency, no thought to productivity. And I will give you a "deep dive."
It just happens that Lefty Grove pitched 2826.2 innings from 1928-39 (excluding a sore arm season in 1934.) and Pedro pitched 2827.1 innings in his career. This is a comparison
...................................Grove..........Martinez
Win lost record...........235-82.........219-100
ERA.............................2.73..............2.93....
ERA+...........................168................154....
WAR.............................95.7..............86.1...
WAR oer 250................8.46...............7.61...
And yeah Martinez had the two best seasons of all time back to back in 1999-2000. Grove had a 59-9 record in 1930 nd 1931. He was 46-4 in one 50 decision period from the middle of July 1930 through September 27 1931. He had a 2.03 ERA in his four losses. The Americn League ERA for that time was 4.53. He pitched batting practice the last game of the season against the New York Yankees to warm his arm for the World Series. If he had not pitched that game (which no modern pitcher would be asked to do) he would have had a sub 2.00 ERA, the only one in the American League between the two world wars; he would have been the only pitcher to ever win 30 games qnd have a .900+ winning percentage at 31-3.
Also there are 10 categories I particularly value that rank pitchers with in a season they are: Wins, Winning percentage, ERA, ERA+, Strikeouts, SPG (strikeouts per game), FIP (fielding independent pitching), WHIP (walks+hits by innings pitched), SO/Walk ratio and WAR for pitchers. in 1930 and 31 Grove lead the league in 19 out 20 categories for the two years, all ten in 1930 and nine out of ten in 1931 losing only the SG title.
The problem is these guys probably do not know that much about MLB history and suffer under the conceit that modern players are necessarily better than older ones for which they have no evidence other than the modern hubris.
@@treadathletics I would like a direct answer from you on this. In Fastball Joe Posnanski said that bob Feller threw 107.3 mph in 1940 in Chicago's Lincoln Park racing against a otorcycle. The bike was going 86 miles per our and feller released the ball 10 feet after the bike passed and his pitch arrived at the target about two feet ahead of the bike. According to math taught in seventh grade that is about 107.3 miles per hour if the bike was going 86 mph.
Now in 1946 Feller was tested again with a Lumiline Chronograph and his velocity measured was about the same. It was 98.6 terminal velocity which means over the hitting area where the light beam measured it Posnanski asks when comparing Feller to Jesse Owens , the sprinter also from Cleveland Posnsnski note:d
"that Bob Feller started in the 1930's and 40's, essentially the same time Jesse Owens started winning gold medals in Germany. And at that point there was no doubt that Jesse Owens was a quantum leap forward in track. They looked at Jesse Owens and said you are not going to get any faster than that; you are not going to run any faster, get any stronger than that. that is the limit of what human beings could do, and of course it wasn't. The times that Jessie Owens ran in 1936 are high school times now, and that is the way it is accross the board and every record has been smashed
"So if you brought that along in baseball if Bob Feller was throwing 98.6, 70 years later people woud be throwing 120 mph hour How come nobody has found a way to throw a fastball 20 miles an hour faster?" www.google.com/search?q=Fastball+the+documentaary&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS755US755&oq=Fastball+the+documentaary&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIGCAEQRRhAMggIAhAAGA0YHtIBCjEyNDQ3ajBqMTWoAgCwAgA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:01321ef8,vid:SIhQlAass2Y,st:0 (23:18-24:18 for the quote
And the question is why did Feller "only" average 7.34 strikeouts per game of per nine innings in 1940 when he essentally could throw harder than today's pitcher who average about 93.4 mph www.google.com/search?sca_esv=595190714&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS755US755&sxsrf=AM9HkKkhuGLznXNx2t8Nfnd3KnyK-PIVgw:1704234014712&q=MLB+average+fastball+velocity+by+year&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiflr643r-DAxUxj4kEHQWjDZYQ1QJ6BAg4EAE&biw=1097&bih=544&dpr=1.75
Yet we can see that strikeout averages per game have gone way up per game If you look at baseball Reference, you will find that kthe American Leaague averaged 3.82 strikeouts per game in 1940. From 2019-2023 the American League has average 8.62 SPG by pitchers with an average 93 mile per hour fastballs in their arsenals www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/pitch.shtml. I think there is a lot more than velo. There are other culprits adrift like a lack of plate discipline and a desire to hit a homer every swing.
Bob Feller was not throwing 107 in 1943. Could he have feasibly hit 100 in his career? Absolutely. But he wasn't sitting 107. His strikeout rate that you bring up is an excellent example of that. PitchingNinja has a great breakdown of some of those old velo recordings such as Nolan Ryan's "108".
th-cam.com/video/90nI3yFMbX0/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=PitchingNinja
Koufax is by far the best. He was superb during the season, but he was Superman in the post season. Pedro called the Yankees, “my Daddy.” Is that your best?
Pedro definitely deserves it, facing all these steroid monsters, and being so dominant, and not for a short career, 18 years span maintaining such numbers.
Steve Carlton he won 27 games with the worst team in baseball that year 1972 Phillies
If 27 wins in one season is your criterion where's Denny McClain?
Didn’t expect that result. Still think steroids should exclude Clemens. No way he wins a Cy Young award at 41 without them
Randy!
Pedro. I watched him 17K NYY live, I’ve never seen anything like it.
Gimme an Andy. S or R I don't care.
What were the four criteria? I also noticed that Sandy Koufax was the oldest pitcher on the list: a guy that older folks saw in their youth. There is nobody before the 60's. Now the years of the late eighties though the early 2000's was the golden age of great pitching with Clemens, Maddux, jJohnson and Martinez all in my top ten .
But when I listened to some of your numbers; they were face value statistics which violates the dictum of Bill James which is "Batting stats and pitching stats do not indicate the quality of play, merely which part of that struggle is dominant at the moment."-Bill James
I heard ERA mentioned and FIP mentioned. Both have to be viewed in context. If we put hitting in the context of Hank Greenberg's, Lou Gehrig's Babe Ruth's, Jimmie Foxx's and Hack Wilson's RBI totals then all the great hitters would be from the 20's and 30's Using a control like offensive WAR puts more modern payers like Mays and Aaron and Yastzremski on equal footing. WAR put Carl Yastzremski's 1967 season on the same footing as Babe Ruth's 1927 season with a 12.6 to a 12.4 for Yaz for third and fourth highest WARs of all time for single seasons for position payer www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_season.shtml
So stats like WAR and standard deviation are more valuable because they follow the dictum of the late Bobby Bragan , an MLB player, manager and executive when he said on the subject of percentages; "Say you were standing with one foot in the oven and one foot in an ice bucket. According to the percentages people, you should be perfectly comfortable." which speaks to quality of the league. That way you can find league quality with out the arrogant assumption that "players are better today," a statement that generally goes unproved as if no proof is needed.
Now following that advice from Mr. Bragan, Mr. James and others. I see Walter, Johnson, Lefty Grove and Roger Clemens as the three best pitchers of all time, and that Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez were in the wings for fourth ad fifth best. I had every guy in your top 7 in my top 13 except Koufax who I ranked unapologetically 65th.. But not even to mention Lefty Grove was a major flaw. He got better numbers than all six guys who made my list of the seven guys on your list. Koufax just is over-rated and you were polite to rate him that high.
Koufax at 65 is crazy bro he lost his career because Tommy John surgery didn’t exist yet. He would be the goat 💀 if it did.
I am not even looking at the video or comments. Me personally, 1. Maddux 2. Koufax. 3. Randy Johnson. 4 Mariano Rivera. 5 Bob Gibson. 6 Cy Young. 7. Pedro Martinez. 8 Whitey Ford. 9 Walter Johnson. 10 Roger Clemens
Prime Pedro for starters, Prime Mariano for relievers/closers. Easy.
I have to say this is the best, best pitcher of all time ive seen. I just did my own n was close.
Pedro
Johnson
Clemons
Maddux
Koudax
Also consideration: Seaver, Kershaw, Gibson, Ryan, Carlton
Maddux Randy and Clemens were the hardest to rank 2-4 for me.
Then the 5 spot with Koufax, Kershaw, Seaver
How would the stats of Kershaw, Maddux, Johnson, Clemens and Martinez look if they played in an era when elite pitchers threw 15+ complete games a season?
Valid point. I think their numbers would drop a bit. That's why it's really a fool's game to try to define who is the best ever. But still a fun game.
Hilarious that he notes the honorable mentions, but has to spend far extra time on Nolan Ryan, very simply because of all the insane Ryan fans that by far OVER-value his accomplishments and completely ignore his shortcomings. Great pitcher, but he doesn't even belong in the honorable mentions for best ever. Wild Cuckoo clock fanboy fan base this guy has and its head scratching.
He have 7 no hitter!!1!
@@brianmcgee127 Complete nonsense. There are numerous facts to support Ryan’s case for number one.
@@jimtruscott5670 Lmao. Really? And those would be???
@@brianmcgee127 The 80 plus career numbers in the record books which you or anyone can look up in 10 minutes.
@@jimtruscott5670 Right.. so you got nothing. We all know his stats. Great pitcher, best strikeout pitcher ever in an incredibly long career. How about all the other numbers? His career ERA and especially his WHIP alone disqualify him from being in the top 10 all time, never mind laughably being considered number 1. Anyone who isn't outrageously biased can see that.
It’s Nolan Ryan. He was on such bad teams that one year he had a 2.28 era and was 19-16. He started pitching in the late 60s and pitched through the roid era. If he wasn’t on such crappy teams we would have at least 400 wins. It’s not even close actually when I think about it.
Pitcher wins is not a stat that should be used to determine the best pitcher of all time.
@@treadathletics just strikeouts then? Just era adjusted for history then? There is no single stat but Ryan was just dominant almost his entire career. It’s either him or Randy Johnson. If the thought it who at one single point in time was the best pitcher to ever do it…that’s when Koufax comes into the equation.
As we mentioned in the video, his inconsistencies and lack of a true stretch of excellence is why he's not at the top of our list.
@@treadathletics Yup 👍 you definitely just started watching sports
@treadathletics I feel like you grew up rooting for teams Ryan was instrumental in stopping in their tracks. Declaring he doesn't belong in the same category as these phenoms as a start to the video just makes the whole thing an obviously biased argument against Ryan. That's ok - you like who you like. That said, a lot of the arguments you made to justify these other pitchers' superiority can be applied to Ryan, too. Your argument against his inclusion is based on simple stats with none of the context you gave the others.
You're not a Ryan fan and that's fine. It is disingenuous hipster bs to exclude him entirely, though. Why top 7 and not top 10? I don't disagree with the pitchers you included but it's not like they are so godly that the next 3 aren't even close. You're basically saying Michael Jordan doesn't deserve to be in the running for greatest basketball player of all time. Arguments like these just ruin your credibility as an expert.
Walter Johnson #1 imo
Nolan should be in the top 10 solely because of his peaks but not too high on the list cause he was inconsistent as hell
Ryan is
Like all but Clemens. He was fading at age 35 and won his sixth CY at 41. Too much steroid use. Fact, and my opinion. Get rid of him, move everybody else up one spot in the same order you have them in and bring in Bob Gibson to the #7 spot. A very close call over Ryan but I like Gibsons 56 shutouts and 255 complete games, and 17 strikeouts in game one of the 68 WS. Other than those adjustments your list is quite good. Thanks
What is name of the annual award for best pitcher, not sure but isn’t it Cy Young Award?
Yes because dude is still top 5 ever even though he hasn’t pitched in 100 years
Sandy Koufax said he doesn't try to be fancy he just throws it over the strike zone and sees what happens.
@@LegendMkr7 Yes but he knew what part of the plate his pitch would cross.
anyone know the music used in the background at 7:50?
Kershaw is my fav pitcher of all time
Sorry I would never have Kershaw on any list 6 inn pitcher.My greatest pitchers are Spahn,Gibson,Marichal,Koufax,Carlton,Ford,Drysdale,Seaver,Ryan,Palmer and Hunter
Its a good list I respect what you have done here, however, I'm curious to how ERA+ is calculated. I find it hard to believe that Spahn, Carlton, or Ryan isn't higher on this list in that category or in WAR. At the turn of the millennial, A lot of analysist would had said that Carlton was the best LH pitcher ever before Clayton and Johnson's achievements. Just his 72 season should have been some kind of record for WAR considering the won loss record of the team he was on. Also, Ryan won the league era title in 87 with a 8 and 16 record (2.76). Not much more you can do there unless you're Ohtani. Okay Ryan and or the other two mentioned probably aren't the goat. But they should be in that conversation as more than a footnote. I also would like to know how you calculate WAR and ERA+ can you point to a good website that shows this? I can't help but think some of it is subjective and clearly doesn't tell the entire story.
Here's a good explanation from MLB regarding ERA+
www.mlb.com/glossary/advanced-stats/earned-run-average-plus
Lefty Grove has to be top 5 he was a super sensational pitcher
Is MLB licensing cheaper to show video of Seaver in a Pale Hose uniform?
What about Walter Johnson and Satchel Paige?
Like most of these lists you miss the greatest pitcher of all time, Robert Moses Grove. Here is my argument that to the rational mind should sway your opinion. lefty Grove pitched "exactly the same number of innings in his best eleven years (1928-39 excluding 1934) as Martinez did in his career (2827). Here is a comparison of their numbers:
.........................................Lefty Grove..................Pedro Martinez
Win lost record...................235-82...........................219-100......
ERA....................................2.73...............................2.93.............
ERA+..................................168...............................,154..............
WAR...................................95.7.................................86.1..........
WAR per 250......................8.46................................7.61...........
Grove is also the only pitcher since 1920 to have two peaks over 40.0 (46 from 1929-33 and 42.6 from 1935-39). He won nine ERA titles, nine ERA+ titles; eight FIP titles; eight strikeout to walk ratio titles. Ignorance of baseball history and the modern conceit without evidence to back it up are the general reason that Grove gets left off. I can compare Grove with any of the other six pitchers and only one, Roger Clemens stands up to him. If you looked at numbers then you picked the wrong ones. Here is a video that does a better job (this one was pretty good except for the Grove slight) here is a better one about lefties th-cam.com/video/P_iI4Gu0usw/w-d-xo.html
It stuns me that Grove and Alexander and a few others just get buried in this modern conceit and hubris.
There is no greatest of all time. Maybe he was the greatest of his time; that should be sufficient.
What steroids should I take to be like roger Clemens?
Just wondering why Nolan Ryan wasn't on this list in your opinion?
He simply was not in the other pitchers class. This is still a flawed list made up by folks who either do not know baseball history or do not respect the past. Lefty Grove, not Randy Johnson, is the greatest lefty of all time.Ryan's 324-292 record and 112 ERA+ do him in..
Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux would be my 1 and 2 starters . (Modern age )
What made Pedro so good? Actually
He had high strikeouts and low ERA during the steroid era
Because he just had nastier pitches?
@@Studentofthegame397 that and the velocity with control
@@diegojaime1565 Everybody had high strikeouts in that era, but he had probably the two best seasons ever back to back in MLB history. But this list is flawed because Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are not on it. It is an excellent recount of the top post integration pitchers. Serious scholars always rate both Johnson and Grove in the top five of all-time.
It's Walter Johnson. The problem with Pedro is six or seven seasons pitching 30 games, 7 innings/game just isn't good enough. It's shocking how light his stats are really. I've often wondered how older pitchers would do if you retroactively ONLY counted the first 100 pitches of their games. I suspect they'd have around 10% less decisions, 10% lower ERA and around 25-50 points higher on their winning percentages. But that's just guess work. The 90s/00s were just such a weird, weird time statistically in baseball. My top ten:
1. Walter Johnson
2. Tom Seaver
3. Lefty Grove
4. Roger Clemens
5. Greg Maddux
6. Cy Young
7. Clayton Kershaw
8. Sandy Koufax
9. Bob Gibson
10. Grover Alexander.
Give or take, you could switch one of two a spot up or down and I wouldn't care. I dunno maybe you could put Martinez around 10th if you really wanted.
Doc is a notable mention
Pedro. Johnson. Clemens. Maddux. Kershaw. The best ones I saw pitch
You say with Koufax that you need longevity, yet you pass up Nolan Ryan? Why can't you be consistent?
Koufax consistently outperformed Nolan Ryan on a year to year basis. The longevity comments was regarding if Koufax could've continued at that level of performance.
Do you know why it's called the Cy Young award?
I don't get how Steve Carlton never makes these lists. He checks all the boxes. He's at least ahead of Ryan, Gibson and Koufax. Not even honorable mention seems crazy.
Just depends on what metrics you stress. I wouldn't put him above Gibson or Koufax, though. But that's just me. Interestingly, Carlton credited Gibson with teaching him how to throw a slider when they were teammates in STL.
Love the video! I am surprised you never mentioned Warren Spahn, however he did have a "high" career era of 3.09 but a surprisingly high fip of 3.46.
That's not "high". It's 3rd lowest among live ball 300 game winners. Only Seaver & Grove have a lower ERA & Grove pitched entirely before integration & Seaver entirely after expansion. Spahn won 301 of his games after integration & before expansion. Spahn also won 20 games (13) as many times as Grove & Seaver did combined.
Why would include a player who hasn’t finished his career?
Ryan’s stretch of dominance was 27 years.
Not sure an era+ of 112 and zero cy young’s is “dominant”. Hes not even close to number one. Not top 10 either.
@@dapper892 Hilarious !😁
Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, and Greg Maddox I would all put ahead of Pedro Martinez hands down. Ryan also pitched 27 seasons... he was dominating for years... his peak was his whole career. Martinez's "7 year peak" is MID at best.
Ryan? lol. Bless your heart ;)
Walter Johnson & Warren Spahn are the 2 most complete (including hitting & fielding) pitchers of all-time. Spahn has the most career SHO (63) of any live ball (post 1920) 300 game winner. Tom Seaver is the greatest expansion (post 1961) pitcher & has the lowest career ERA (2.86) of all live ball 300 game winners. Walter Johnson won 25 games with an ERA under 2.00 in 7 consecutive seasons. He won 38 1-0 games & won 20 on a losing team 5X & no other pitcher did it more than twice since 1900. As a hitter he had a career total of 41 triples which is more than ARod, Pujols, Griffey & Cabrera each had in their careers.
There should be at least 2 top 10s. Keep in mind that pitchers are first & foremost baseball PLAYERS. Therefore, pitchers who were not batters or did not play entire games need not apply for all-time top 10s.
MLB NL/AL (since 1901) Top 10: 1- W.Johnson 2- W.Spahn 3- C.Mathewson 4- L.Grove. 5- G.C.Alexander 6- B.Feller 7- T.Seaver 8- M.Brown 9- S.Koufax 10- R.Roberts. All-time all top level leagues: 1- W.Johnson 2- W.Spahn 3- C.Mathewson 4- L.Grove 5- G.C.Alexander 6- B.Feller 7- T.Seaver 8- S.Paige 9- C.Young 10- A.Spalding.
Pretty good list, but I’m not as high on Spahn. Not top ten in any major compilation stat (WAR, JAWS, WAR7, adj WAR7, S-JAWS, or WAA. Also 35th in WAR/162. Great durability and longevity, but his peak has him outside of my top 16.
@@stevenhattrick9495 Spahn won 20 games THIRTEEN times. His career ERA (3.09) is 3rd all-time among live ball 300 games winners but No.1 (Seaver) won all his games AFTER expansion & No. 2 (Grove) won all his games BEFORE integration. Spahn won 301 of his 363 after integration & before expansion pitching in the greatest MLB of all time which was the NL of the 1950s. As you might summize, I have little use for meaningless theoretical formulas when evaluating athletics especially those like baseball which have always been driven by massive statistical tracking.
@@nobodyaskedbut Good points. But those stats I listed account for variations year to year in quality of players and era more accurately than just using expansion, live ball, or integration as general milestones. He took 5243.2 innings to win 363 games while Grove won 300 games in 1303 fewer innings. His ERA+, which is era adjusted based on "massive statistical tracking", is 13th among 300 game winners, or 110th among all starters with at least 1000 innings. He won 1 Cy Young in 21 years, behind 21 other pitchers. He has a 1.19 career WHIP, 150th best all time. No one doubts his consistency or longevity, or the total value of his career. But in terms of level of dominance over a 1, 5, or even 9 year period, there are likely more players on that list ahead of Spahn than just Walter Johnson.
Pitchers are so coddled today with pitch counts and relief pitchers bought in the game at the drop of a hat that it is very unfair to compare pitchers of the past who were expected to get themselves out of tight situations at least if they were regarded as good pitcher and routinely expected to pitch at least 200 innings a year with pitchers of the present. The only way I would regard a great pitcher of today with the Tom Seavers, Jim Palmers, Warren Spahns, Water Johnsons, Bob Fellers, et cetera, et cetera of the past would be if that pitcher puts up Sandy Koufax numbers year in and year out.
No Walter Johnson, no serious discussion of the greatest pitcher of all time. Career WAA leader amongst pitchers.
Bob Gibson, not close
Maddux and Randy Johnson
I love pedro but #1 is too high. He had a hell of a run of dominance but we comparing careers here not peak windows.
Saw Bob Gibson and Nolan got left off and knew this had to be a joke. I know it’s hard to compare eras but that would be like saying Babe Ruth and Willie Mays aren’t top 10.
Lol Ryan
Tom Seaver is underrated ? ? ? Are you bonkers ? Almost all experts rank him in the top ten greatest.
You sir, don't know baseball. Just another list of recency bias. Pretty sad really, nice try but read a book