My old teacher was a famous opera singer. He said the music industry was terrible, and it’s because most people aren’t okay in themselves. He said great singers like Joan Sutherland and Pavarotti were very solid as people, because they made it. They didn’t get in their own way to success. He told me to not get in my own way. Also, my grandfather used to tell me, “There’s always room at the top. It’s down on the bottom where it’s crowded. If you’re willing to work to be the best, there is always room.” Many people don’t want to be the best; they want to pretend to be the best. You should serve the music and not your personality disorder, and many people are using their powerful position to serve their own egos and personality disorders.
Thanks for sharing your opinions! I came to study classical music in Europe from a popular latin-american background, so this idea of "western european classical music is the highest kind of music" I've been feeling it very strong ... and honestly it just one way of doing music, but that idea scary many people, especially conservatory teachers.
@gherrera-benavides I come with a cultural background of Indian music so I feel you about conservatories putting western classical, "fine-art" music as the "best, cleanest" elitist form of music. Personally, as a composer i've been studying Renaissance folk music as the percussion used in those has similar usages to mridangams (drums) in Indian music! Anyway, I hope you're able to enjoy classical music the way you want :)
14:25 - I think it's worth mentioning that it doesn't apply to all countries. You are speaking about conditions in America, as I deduce. I'm from Europe and here in many countries, for example in Poland, where I'm from, music education in primary, secondary and higher music school are all free. As most young people are inclined to study something, continuation of musical education therefore mostly depends on the willingness and dedication of students and very rarely depends on economical conditions of the family.
And I must say that I agree with the toxicity of the classical music education, exactly as you describe it. It's a great relief for me to hear that I'm not alone in this stress, never being enough, not allowing myself to rest even for half an hour, because I always need to practice more and be better, since I'm never good enough. It's healing for me to hear that this musical thing is just like this for most of people and I'm not strange that I feel all this anxiety of musical study since the childhood. Thank you
as someone who lives in the US, I would like to point out that most K-12 schools public and private offer some form of music instruction for free or at limited additional cost. Almost every single school has a band/orchestra of some form. However if you want to get good at something you have to pay for private lessons which will start to cost money.
I HATE when Europeans pretend that none of overseas problems concern them because "we got free everything". You comment is a lie, intentional or not. Classical music in Europe is consumed, produced and studied by the country's elites. And it's not because you had an hour of musical education at school for 10 years that classical music is "inclusive". Europe (especially countries like Poland) are ANYYHING but inclusive. Much less so than the US. Maybe you had the economic privilege to study music in higher education but your poorer age mates would never choose such a path because of lack of opportunities.
Coming from an ordinary family, I couldn't afford 'smart' instruments - my modren violin was a target of fun; the fact that my parents live in rented accomofation was a way of excluding me. Mercifully, I was able to sit them out and do my own thing. Gut goodness - it took years. Everytime I see a working class child with a violin I light a candle for them mentally.
I really dont like the idea that Violinist who are classically trained looking down upon the lowly fiddler who in many cases learns that violin on their own . Violinist - Fiddlers same instrument completely different mindset.
The classical industry is so toxic. There's a reason I stopped actively pursuing an operatic career and instead do crazy operatic concerts in virtual platforms as a Cheshire Cat.
ye, and on top of that classical music is just an indoctrination of 12-tet major and minor chords. If you only dare to play a tritone even once, you are condemned as servant of Lucifers Black Metal gods...
Holy crap this is incredibly true and I’m saying this coming from contemporary classical music where people believe themselves to be at the forefront of all musical exploration. Despite this I found it practically identical to classical music, but with inverted values. If you dare do anything that isn’t radical enough and within the accepted boundaries of experimentation you are cast out, humiliated and quite frankly demonized. There is always a reason to hate the people doing something differently and it’s always made out to be objectively verifiable. It normally involves a completely fictionalized version of someone being created and spread within the community to exile them. The average person considers what I do (writing for and playing microtonal guitars) to be experimental but in contemporary music it was largely scoffed at as irrelevant by either jealous performers who weren’t pushing any boundaries that weren’t already pushed in the 70’s and 80’s or composers who were jealous because they weren’t good instrumentalists. I think in the end these people were angered that I had the courage to do my own thing so they wanted to see me fail so that they could feel as though they were superior. In the end that’s the goal of classical and contemporary classical music: feeling superior.
Oh man, I’m so sorry that’s been your experience. 😣 I hope the industry can find a way to get better! I feel like it’s driving people away in droves, musicians and audience members alike. But I hope you’re still composing!
I'm someone who had a very classical beginning of my musical journey and could've been a classical musician if not for a major musical moment that made me pick up the guitar and crank up the distortion. I grew up in a modestly wealthy family, dad is a celebrity in the country but in the entertainment industry as a whole on radio and TV, so I wasn't in an elitist enviroment, and that's maybe why my passions were the thing that followed the family in our musical journey and not the belonging to any elitist society. Family stories say I've been listening to classical music when I was a little fetus, my dad put headphones with classical music on my mom's belly when she was pregnant with me and in very early childhood they also bought me specifically live CDs and DVDs of concerts because dad believed it would be the most benificial for early musical development, and they turned out to be right! I had a very strong fascination stringed instruments and specifically the cello at first, luck was on our side when we discovered there was a cello specialist and professor a few streets from us, so we went to him when I was like 3 and he got me "diagnosed" with perfect pitch! But at the same time while I tried learning the cello at age 4 my dad got me into blues, specifically BB KIng and Clapton, with a bit of rock like Springsteen, Santana and Led Zeppelin. Then he bought me Steve Vai's Visual Sound Theories DVD, which is his orchestral concert with the Metropole orchestra in Amsterdam and the way Steve literally conducted the entire orchestra with making weird noises on the guitar made me wanna start playing guitar! so I switched and never looked back since. Now I'm 21, senior in my country's equivalent to Berklee and started to get in the industry as a session guitar player! So yeah, the fact my background wasn't elitist or even classical related probably saved me from being with the wrong crowd :D
A good discussion, thanks! I did lots of classical music at school, and grew up in the culture you describe. Interestingly, as someone who works in biomedical research now, I see the same toxic culture in medicine ("we had to work 20 hour shifts, and we survived, so shut up and don't complain"), and in research ("you won't have time to go to the movies - you'll be reading research articles all weekend"). There are signs of progress; that as our cultural understanding of the damage these toxic cultures do becomes more explicit, more people are rejecting the status quo. A woman I worked with in a previous job - the head of plastic surgery ad a major cancer hospital - noted with optimism that many of the young male doctors refused to attend after hours meetings because they had to be at home to bathe/feed/read bedtime stories for young children. So I absolutely acknowledge what you're describing, but I remain hopeful for change.
I think a lot of what you say must apply to any performance-based discipline, dance, ballet, (gymnastics?) - theatre perhaps to a lesser extent. Now, 25 years ago, when I had just graduated from music college, as I started meeting more people in the profession I began to recognise that I didn't want to spend all my time with these professional musicians, so I decided to work with amateurs instead (as a conductor) and I also became a music teacher, which I do to this day and which suits me. It would be interesting, don't you think, to do a video comparing amateur and professional music. Can either one live without the other? Most (numerically) of the most memorable performances that I remember (either as listener of performer) have been by amateur musicians. And that's what counts, doesn't it? Yet, OTOH, all my inspirational teachers have been professionals.
What you’re discussing in this video is what I call the “Meistersinger Syndrome”. Wagner’s Meistersinger succinctly (in 4.5 hours…succinct, right) describes what you’re discussing. And that attitude is imbued in every organization, from mom and pop stores to global mega-corps and governments.
Wow!! I think that explains my screaming oboe teacher (and a few other things)!! I just remember so often feeling like the "please pass the jelly" guy in the Grey Poupon commercial. I also remember the sense of relief when I returned to the waiting arms of Hall and Oates after years of five-hour practice room days chasing the Three Bs.
WOW! Yes! I experienced (& participated) in that elitist environment until a couple of years after high school. In one of my other comments, I started to mention that, but didn't because I didn't feel it was relevant to the rest of the comment. Looking back, my parents were elitist, not necessarily about Classical music, but about educational status. I was raised on Opera and Classical music & loved it! I still do. Fortunately for me, my skills as a violinist were so abysmal that I didn't have to worry about getting caught up in the "Bubble". I'm grateful for your insights which have helped me to analyze some of my past & why I took the path I did, which included growing to love almost all forms of music. 👍
This is what I did to the "authorities of classical music" if there is such a thing. I raised my middle finger and said "I'll do whatever the hell I want." Despite how the purists like classical music in the purists form 100% I went along and created an electric orchestra and now I have a following because of that. I went out of the box. Something that the stuffy instructors of the recent past don't know how to do. Musicians in classical music in the past went out of the box (they just "fail" to tell us this out of their own convenience). As I have told my students, if you like it and want to do something radical and different, then do it. No one is stopping you, I sure am not. I encourage you to do it. Simple as that, not always but it's all about don't listen to the nut cases. Something that one of my piano teachers in college told me.
This was such a good video. I’ve wanted to be an opera singer since I was 14 and have started to study opera on the side two years ago while pursuing a graduate degree in something else. I personally love not going to a conservatory because the great opera singers of the past did not do that (e.g. Beverly Sills, Roberta Peters, and a bunch of others from the older generations). I didn’t know that the toxicity happens in the industry as well as the schools. I’m not someone who is taking the traditional conservatory route because my parents don’t want me to do that. So, I’ve been paying for my own lessons and taking free classes on the subjects needed to be an opera singer. I want to make opera for the masses in the way that Deanna Durbin did; but, it seems that the industry doesn’t want to go in that direction. Then, my other option is classical crossover, which I also love but is not my passion.
I love that direction for so many reasons! I think it’s totally possible to break into the industry that way through the competition route. You could be an “overnight” sensation, the black sheep - who is she and where did she come from? (I can dig some dramatic flair 😉) But more seriously, I think that kind of diversity would do the industry SO much good. Literally everyone has a conservatory degree (usually 2 or 3). But why? I actually think the classical music world might be more accepting of unorthodox talent than most other industries. An education will get you connections, but a talent will get you the career. I hope it works out for you!
@@ScoresUnstitched Thank you so much! I’m so glad that you think it’s possible to break into the industry without a degree. I would love to be successful without one! And I totally agree with you that this kind of diversity is what’s needed in opera. Most of the great opera singers of the past didn’t have conservatory educations because they couldn’t afford it (e.g. Beverly Sills and Pavarotti). I hope the classical music industry is accepting of unorthodox talent cause there’s so much talent out there. Thank you! I hope it works out for me too!
@@jenniferliggett6385 Thank you! Unfortunately, a lot of people in the classical music world tell musicians that they can’t have interests outside of classical music and that they only need to study it so they get amazing at it. It’s sad.
I'm one of the exceptions (I think). Despite growing up poor, I started on piano at the age of 4 and learned to read music notation, but gave up music after a couple years until I bought a cheap electric guitar at age 12. I figured out how to rig up a home made 2-track using a duel cassette boom box and a tape recorder (to bounce tracks down) and experimented with recording and eventually became a metal head. My studies of guitar scales and chords lured me to the land of music theory, and now I compose orchestral music. In more recent years my love for the piano has returned and I'm currently age 50 and studying Chopin on my own. I regret stopping childhood piano lessons, but enjoy learning and video performing. I'm having a great time, yet some of my (musician) friends tend to view me as an elitist.
"elitist" is just another word tool of the crowd with no self-awareness, accusing others of what they're doing. It's Leftism in a nut shell, and they even have a handbook [ "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky] explaining the technique in detail, so those who want to do it more consciously & deliberately can do it even better.
I come from a musical background through my father and his mom or my grandmother who were both classically trained pianists and my grandmother was a high school music teacher as well. But because she lived in another country and my father passed away when I was young, I only got an introduction of playing music through him and since then I've been self-taught knowing enough to get by. As I've gotten older I would ask my mom stories about things my dad said or did and something that shocked me was she said when my dad was growing up with my grandmother that she only taught him classical music. He was more interested in jazz but if she heard him playing it or talking about it she would literally disrupt his playing and scold him as a child. It was so crazy that he had to wait until he was an adult and moved out to be able to study jazz, buy albums from artists like Oscar Peterson or Duke Ellington and join sessions with other jazz musicians at clubs. Now if that sort of thing can happen between flesh and blood like a mother and son, I can easily imagine this elitism happening to strangers in that same environment that brainwashed my grandmother.
This is such a great video, and i absolutely agree with many of your points.... The music industry is terrible, and well.. I think the same can be said in not just classical but in other sectors too. I moved on from classical to the electronic sector, which unfortunately does bear some similarities but there is one thing that I hope that the classical industry takes from us, dance music artists. We accept creativity, and accept trying to be yourself, and we even got a saying PLUR (Peace, Love, Unity, Respect)... Respect for each other, the art and the overall craft. I too also grew up, and always got comments of 'i was not good enough' or ' i didn't practice enough' or comments 'oh I will feel guilty and depressed later in life for me not practicing' and the line specifically in this video 'classical music first/musican first, people second'.... and it has lead me down to a near permanent burnout of playing classical music or just even wanting to listen to a classic music performance.... Its a good thing, I decided to turn down going to music school in a conservatory because when I was younger, I was very close to going to a conservatory school until I was talked out of it... These days, I take what i've learned from classical music, try to push and compose melodies that I find so much joy in being able to play my own style, and my own sound to audiences... And I just hope one day, the classical industry will catch onto this and well... maybe this burnout will end one day...
Excellent video, I'm in my first year of conservatoire, and as a newcomer to the industry, finding your channel has been like discovering a gold mine. Thank you for your thoughtful and incisive videos!
You have no idea how refreshing it was to see your video!! I’m an aspiring classical musician and I have really struggled with finding a clear and helpful voice on the subject of toxicity in classical music. I find the subject heavily pervaded by outsiders that don’t understand the struggles of trying to grow with new ideas and “unconventional” takes in traditional works and subjects as a classical musician. And finally hearing the viewpoint of someone who actually has experience in the industry has made my year!
I'm so glad!! Man, it's real too. People are so, so afraid to say anything at all critical when they're at the will of the industry. I don't blame them at all, I was one of them! But now that I don't have to worry about losing a reputation, I'm just so mad on behalf of my younger self. I hope by talking about it, things can start to get better!
Thanks for the video. I really enjoy your videos and the topics you bring up. Only a couple of quick thoughts that this triggers in my mind about elitism... I know it seems to be in vogue to blame the church for this or that. But another perspective is that the fostering of music in "early times" by the church actually helped to advance it. J.S.Bach was born out of this environment. So good has come of it. As indicated in the video, it also became wealthy patrons who helped advance the musical art. Regarding the elitism itself and what it's rooted in... part of it is the nature of the music itself. Elitism occurs in other musical genres besides classical music. I know some fans of the Phish rock band. There's actually a subgroup of those fans who consider themselves true fans that are the ones who really understand the music, and they refer to the other fans as "posers" because, in their opinions, the posers only like the music superficially. I think, to some degree, because of the depth of the art in classical music, you can't remove the fact that there's going to be some esoteric aspect of it that is appreciated by, or at least interesting to, a subset of people. That in and of itself is going to lend to some elitism due to human nature. But the whole formal presentation I think enhances this effect. You'll find more causal attendees at the outdoor concert facilities than you do in the large, opulent concert halls. Maybe more classical concerts should be presented in less formal settings? And perhaps the performers should be allowed to wear comfortable clothing like blue jeans, etc? That might make it more approachable. Even though the current concert hall may allow anyone to attend who buys a ticket, the environment isn't "welcoming" for everyone. I don't think this is the fault of the building. I've been to the concert hall in London and observed a lot more casually clothed people than I do in the US. Making the experience more broadly inviting would help mitigate the elitism.
Everyone is "elitist" in their own way. The style and subject of what they call "elitist" is the only difference between their 'elitism' and the other's 'elitism'. This generation unfortunately was programmed to see anything they aren't fully jiving with as an affront to their own personal "dignity" and identity, so it's not going to matter what you or anyone else does - if they are not the center of whatever it is, or being honored for whatever they're doing or critiquing, then it offends them and must be elitist, racist, _phobic, or any of the other Bourgeoisie snooties of exclusionary or refined society. So anything that requires training, or doing something differently from how they want to do it, is going to be seen as "elitist", because what else can it be? You see, everyone should be "individuals" as long as they include them and anything they want to add or replace your individualism with, so it includes, accommodates and honors them at their present level of understanding and skill. There is no room for "mastering" something anymore, because it would mean temporarily not being 'good' enough, which they equate with moral rejection and thus personal oppression, due only to bigotry. It's Marx's gift to modern society.
@@jameseverett4976This is a BS take and This generation does acknowledge some of Marx’s points, but that’s more so from the context of acknowledging how things are, historically and even now, modernity, not necessarily creating a perception of it. With this said, the overall view is that things should be inclusive, it’s not argued that certain folx should be the centre of anything, the fact that you make that claim says you aren’t really listening to what’s being said. Considering White folx pushed non-White Folx to view “Classical” or any European music that’s on academic level as superior to their own cultural musical tastes. So, due to this, it makes little sense that there wouldn’t be acknowledgement of folx of colour, who were taught the elitist notions. Why program folx to see Classical as superior, train folx accordingly, then not acknowledge their contributions and value in the community? This is why folx will call things racist at times, because how a lot of folx were introduced to Classical was rooted in racism notions or views, and a lot of folx of colour believe those notions, so, of course folx want to be included in the recognition of great artistry. NOT THE CENTRE OF IT. But let’s be real, Marx didn’t invent these terms nor the reality, he simply organised the information in a way that folx could understand it along with his own weird views. As to why certain things are called elitist lies with the folx who choke the art for the purpose of overly worshiping tradition at the expense of letting the art breathe and flow naturally through folx which is important to mastery. The point is, most modern musicians don’t mind studying the tradition, as long as we aren’t expected to be pigeonholed in it to the point of not being able to think outside of box, which unfortunately elitists have difficulty recognising what’s “good” enough because they aren’t able to appreciate much that doesn’t centre purist tradition quite the way they fell in love with the art form. So, they reject valid interpretations from artists with respect for tradition but have newer thinking. This what many folx mean we say “Elitist”. It’s not a rejection of constructive criticism, but a frustration with certain folx who think autism is the only right way to experience Classical as an Art form, failing to recognise that many of the greats deviated from purism which is largely what made them the legends we know today. Many folx today aren’t against mastering anything, in fact, the level of virtuosity and passion for Classical and various forms of music is pretty high right now. I’m seeing with the Jazz community, Progressive Metal, etc…but that many folx aren’t a fan of “mastery” without deep enough connections to make it one’s own and add to the canon/standards uniquely as the earlier greats have. I would argue, this is the problem modern Jazz is having now. So, many of the Millennials(My generation) and Zoomers, get into Jazz but unfortunately just stick to tradition, we don’t innovate much, and to be fair, the Jazz purists have done their part in shutting that down, but still, it has dried up Jazz to the point that a lot of folx are acknowledging most Jazz players today don’t sound interesting, they are essentially copying the greats or their favourite era of Jazz, few are doing anything that pushes the boundaries. If the Classical community doesn’t check this issue soon, the same will happen with Classical, and this is why we need to call out the elitism. This is where elitism hurts art. This frustration has been critiqued about various forms of music that either are or have become steeped in academia for over a century. I question that it has anything to do with Marx, but a valid observation that we’ve done little to fix or deal with for so long, we now have to address it.
I think much of what you said she had already acknowledged, such as the fact there is elitism in many groups of people. I think her point is since she’s closely tied to Classical, she’s addressing it from that context of critiquing the community she knows or loves.
Curious, I grew up in Cuba, my family liked classical music and took me to concerts, ballets, operas, zarzuelas, all artists been paid by the government. It was not a massive event but the Grand Theatre Lorca In Havana will fill out, as will other theaters and later on Churches turn into concert halls in Havana. Not everybody has the sensitivity and exposure necessary to like this music. Training musicians to be able to perform this music is' not cheap either, it takes money from the government or from the person to do this. The racial disparities were there as well, no matter how much the government tried to help.
I do all of the stuff you said in the video (the indoctrination part more specifically) out of pure pleasure and don't see a problem with it. I practice 6-8 hours every day (or almost) and I don't feel like I am missing my life, mainly because I only talk to 2-3 people I know, mainly because I am very selective of whom I talk to. I go to recitals at least 2-3 times per month (I hate "clubs anyways), and I listen to classical music all the time (cuz I am not really into other genres), and this was out of my free will, not indoctrination, not because I was forced or other stuff like that (I am the only musician in my family). However, I agree with the part that it is difficult to make it unless you are from a rich background and/or be from a musical family, not to mention the connections you need to have (and most competitions in my country are rigged in favour of those people with those backgrounds I mentioned, just because of relations, and not by their playing overall. This is what I hate the most about this industry).
Coming from a poor/working-class background, I very definitely felt the touch of this elitism. I was already coming into music from a rough upbringing, so I literally did not know any better and could not recognize what wrongs were done to me: I had no identity AT ALL beyond my voice. Nothing. I didn't even know that was bad until I got into therapy! And even with "A Good Voice," my disadvantaged background was something I learned to shut up about real fast: teachers and visiting professionals were all smiles when they'd heard me sing, but if I mentioned being a scholarship student, within minutes I was invisible. Looking at it now, I want to smack them, and my younger self (just a little). I was doing that well, on NO teaching: I had a real effing talent. If I'd been privileged and gotten music lessons from a young age instead of STARTING at 17? How much better might I have been, how much more might I have learned? It infuriates me to think about the things I personally lost bc of my treatment in school. My second experience was FAR better, more grounded and more caring, but by then so was I. For myself, the fix is going back - even though I'm almost fifty, even though I'm not going to get lessons (I sure can't afford them now any more than I could then). But I do know how to practice. I remember the things I learned then, on top of all I've learned since. Will I be singing to please no ears but my own? THAT IS FINE THANK YOU. I am taking back my joy in music, and never letting anyone's money take it away from me again.
There are a number of points where you use the term "eurocentric" when I think you really just mean "European" - there is an implied criticism with the term "eurocentric" which I'm not sure is relevant or even intentional every time you use it. I can see why from an American perspective you could begin to use the words interchangeably - but when you are speaking in a historical context of historical trends within Europe in e.g. the eighteenth century, I'm not sure it's exactly what you meant. (Just something to consider for future videos!)
Great essay. A lot of this toxicity and elitism is found in Indian classical music as well. I think that any art form that requires years of study beginning in childhood leads to a particular insular worldview. Also, as you point out, the intense relationship and dependence on the teacher (this is especially true in indian music which depends on face to face learning and in which notation is much less prominent than in Western music). Then there is the issue of the lack of free music education in schools (especially in the US) which of course limits who is able to participate. These are real issues. At the same time, there is something to be said for trying to preserve "high art". We don't want to abandon all the standards and etiquettes of classical music.
I am new to enjoying classical music. I have spent most of my life enjoying rock, R&B, hard rock (metalheads), alternative, etc. As a person of color i understand the elitism issues with classical music and opera. My father had a collection of classical music he occasionally listened to after dinner in the evenings. So it is part of my family upbringing. For me this is just an exploration of a genre. I was fortunate to live down the street from my elementary school music teacher and i was fortunate to go to an elementary school that had a music teacher. She told us stories about Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, etc. I also sang in the school's choir. So i had an introduction to classical music. But i don't know the vernacular or terminology of classical music. I am not necessarily trying to be a part of the classical music community. I am just hoping to listen to the music live. In LA the school system does provide instruments to the students if they want to learn how to play an instrument which is a great model. But thanks for providing us with a warning.
I think it is worth noting that different demographics of people come from cultures that put less importance on "high art" like classical music. Or such, in the case of African Americans, often harbor a strong dislike for things like classical music, because taking part in it would be seen as "Acting white." This cultural dictate/dislike for things that are viewed as stuffy, privileged, or otherwise distasteful, probably has more to do with the lack of ethnic diversity in orchestra than any inherent toxicity or racism within the realms of classical music itself. After all, Asian Americans, and Asian culture at large, has a profound respect and appreciation for high arts, which is why they both take part, and greatly excel in them. So I have to wonder if it is exclusionary, or if the various cultural perspective of different groups doesn't play a larger part in forming the demographics of the classical music industry - if you will.
This lady talking is just as ‘elite’ as the elitist she’s criticizing. How in the hell does Trump supporters come to mind when talking about the gate keepers of CLASSICAL music?!? The tds is strong with her.
It’s worth noting that African Americans may feel that European and Western cultures have historically undervalued their artistic contributions, such as Jazz. Since its inception, Jazz has often been labeled as “less sophisticated,” “barbaric,” or “immoral” by Western cultural standards. This negative perception and cultural bias might explain, in part, the reaction you mentioned, as it could be a response to the early 20th-century rejection of Jazz. Prominent figures like composer Arnold Schoenberg believed classical music had exhausted its tonal possibilities, advocating for atonality as the future of music. Similarly, philosopher and musicologist Theodor W. Adorno wrote extensively on atonal music and famously looked down on genres like Jazz, considering atonal classical music to be superior. Essentially, Western culture seems to imply: “You are welcome to participate in the ‘high arts,’ but only if you acknowledge the distinction between ‘high art’ and popular or secular music.” To that, one might respond: “I think I’ll stay where I am, thanks.”
Hi there, interesting opinion. Like this video, I encourage you to interrogate where your definition of 'high art' comes from and what that looks like. Your definition sounds very concrete and locked in. Aliens from Mars might think nothing on Earth constitutes 'high art' by their definition of it - I'd laugh hard if that day ever comes. If your definition of high art is eurocentric (high class white people who make up all the standards and tell everyone what and who is and isn't worthy) then its a very limited lens to look at other cultures and what moves and motivates them - actually, it's a useless lens. It means, you'll be missing what fantastic magical dreamlike and transcendent art comes from all sorts of people around the world - from working class rural white people to communities in Africa or Asia! Also, a eurocentric lens limits where we think art can happens, it encourages people to sequester the arts in dark high-priced highfalutin auditoriums, demands that people approach it in restrictive ways, bound by dress code, behavior, even demands a certain language when talking about it. This lens tells us when and where art is possible. Art doesn't happen solely in the conservatory, many cultures on earth accept and encourage art to happen at home around the kitchen table or on the street - it's just part of life and it's for everyone. If you feel a culture places less importance on 'high art' perhaps reverse the thought - seems like the custodians of high art, those who maintain the concrete and very narrow definitions, place little importance on the value of [fill in blank] anyone who doesn't resemble them or strive to be them.
There is a very interesting study on these topics by Anna Bull: Class, Control and Classical Music. She conducted interviews with young people engaged in different classical youth ensembles in the UK and analysed her findings with a specific focus on class dynamics. She concludes that exclusionary strategies are baked into the aesthetics of classical music. To counter that, she pleads for a discourse that is open to questioning such aesthetic ideals.
Have played and enjoyed playing classical music for most of my life. Albeit in a non professional setting because let's be real there's only so many seats in a state funded ensemble and even less dollars to go round and hours to practice. I like many others jump at the chance to play in a public setting even if the pay to time spent rehearsing doesnt add up. I am neither indoctrinated or brain washed as to not understand the value of other forms of music. I have been taught and had the pleasure of playing with some really outstanding musicians who have held chairs in large symphonies, taught at prestigious universities. Not once have i experienced any exclusionism or felt like an interloper. I guess what im trying to say is all types of music are for all people. I'm not sure where this agenda comes from. From where im sitting companies like Fever have been making strides in making classical music and dance more accessible. You can go experience Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Dvorak, Chopin, Vivaldi and many more without the formal attire. Many if these events are actually cheaper making them more accessible than the big concerts performed by contemporary rock and pop musicians. Sincerely Trumpet musician for 23 years and active participant in non for profit community bands for just as long.
Conservatism vs. progressivism have always been the two forces shaping music. You can find this same argument happening back in 19th century Germany with the Wagner and the conservatives battling Brahms and the progressives. I'm sure if you go back another hundred years you'll find people making the same argument in Bach's time, you'll find people arguing for and against the transition to the formal mode of music notation system we use today. It's tempting to always side with the progressive camp, but the issue really isn't that simple. You need people pushing the boundaries, but you also need people judging these propositions against the classics. That's how you really grow the music tradition in a thoughtful, organized way. You can't accept just ANYTHING. But just like everything, you need the proper balance. Yin-yang. It sounds like the classical community is leaning too far in the conservative direction these days. We need to nudge it in the other direction, but not TOO hard.
@paddiowilson It’s funny you say ‘it’s easy to always side with the progressive camp’ but then cite Brahms as progressive and Wagner as conservative… when it was really the opposite? Like don’t get me wrong, Brahms is an amazing and innovative composer, but he was very much wanting to be a continuation of the tradition, whereas Wagner was more explicitly starting something new. Sorry for the tangent, but actually what Wagner did; developing a radically new and individual vision for the art form, putting more focus on connecting with his audience through compelling narratives (and folklore references etc), and becoming one of THE most culturally influential people of the late 19th Century; should be contemplated by the modern industry. How could he be so culturally relevant at the time? Don’t get me wrong, I know there are HUGE issues with Wagners legacy, especially his antisemitism and the later whole-hearted fanboying by a certain Adolf, and his ginormous ego feeding into the ‘great men’ view of history (and associated elitism). But, you cannot deny his artistic innovation and break from tradition, musical influence, and widespread popularity.
Anyway what I’m meaning to say is that I think musical progressivism vs conservatism, while relevant, isn’t really the most useful terms to frame the current crisis in the industry. Classical music’s ability to innovate has been one of its strengths, but the dynamic has definitely changed over the last 100 years. Parts of the industry are increasingly fragmented- ie there’s not really any unifying musical movement for music being composed now, ie. less crossover between ‘new music’ and mainstream classical scenes, and the industry as a whole is more insulated. It reduces the ability of someone to redefine the whole genre in the way that for example Marchaut, Monteverdi, Haydn, Beethoven, (and yes) Wagner, Debussy, Stravinsky or even Boulez did (among many others at these stylistic transition points). Or like Miles Davis, the Beatles, or Biggie smalls to take examples from other genres. All kinds of ‘musically progressive’ circles of classical music definitely exist, it’s just that they have very small reach even compared to orchestras and institutions which are already insular. I don’t think it’s lack of exploration that is necessarily the problem. I think it’s more a need to prioritise the importance of connecting to audiences and engaging them in the ways they find meaningful, ie. being receptive instead of dictating the ways people ‘should’ interact with the music, and not just existing to appease the donors who want to ‘preserve’ their (incomplete ideas of) traditions. Yes art for arts sake is fine, but isn’t the point of it to connect to people? There is so much emotionally powerful music in this European-descended style of music composed up to the present day, and I think the industry is killing itself by not being accessible to newcomers, and preventing more people from enjoying the artistic merit it has to offer. To to me it’s a more of a question of how can we keep it a living, breathing tradition, and find a societally relevant role within our culture. Maybe when classical musicians can realise ‘we live in a society’, we might be able to make some progress. Anyway, thank you to the 2 people who will read this long rant.
Suzuki teacher here. I 100% agree with everything in this video. However, I have to push back on the suzuki quote as it’s taken out of context. He was actually advocating for self care. The idea is that if you’re not feeling well ( can’t eat) you can skip practice that day. Whereas traditional methods encourage practice while I’ll including going to rehearsal, performing any way..that “show must go on mentality”. Also, many suzuki teachers work actively to promote healthy musicianship and there is a huge push for more diversity in the repertoire. We also don’t advocate children to practice alone, group study is a large focus as is building a studio community over competition. We educate the whole child-which was Dr. Suzuki’s focus. Character first, ability second. He was more interested in developing character than professional musicians. Because there is the emphasis to learn by ear in the beginning improv it’s actually easier for Suzuki students. Many Suzuki students also now offer scholarships and sliding scale tuition! We also work with the ability of the child in front of us and can actually tailor more easily the games we play to their interests. In fact, most young suzuki students learn solely through playing games! I’ve never heard any fellow Suzuki teachers scream at students. Last, the suzuki association of Americas denounced racism as an organization following the murder of George Floyd. I think Suzuki is actually the answer to abusive classical music. 😊
That's nonsense. You can get character without knowing how to play a single note on a recorder. Commercial music schools are just that: COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISES.
@@lepidoptera9337 I never said that learning music was the only way to develop character. There are multiple ways of doing that, music is just one of them. Suzuki method though has differing priorities than traditional lessons that’s my point. I also don’t know what recorder has to do with anything I said. 🤷🏻♀️ I’m sorry you’ve had terrible experiences in music education but I know most teachers don’t earn a living teaching music so they do it because they love to do it and want to be of service. I hope you find peace- you come off as angry.
@@glendasensei Please stop bullshitting. Music is a skill. That's all it is. Does it cost money to teach a skill? Yes. We are spending $17,000 per year per K-12 student to teach basic reading, writing, math, science and a few other things that come in handy in a Western culture. We leave music to private industry because it's not an important skill and few people will ever use it even after they learn some of it. I have a terrible experience with music education? My Dad was a music teacher for over 20 years. He was one of the few teachers that students in his school were standing in line for. You are not exercising very good judgment for all the "character" that you are "teaching". That's the sign of a person who is full of him/herself. ;-)
@@lepidoptera9337 Chill. Speaking of learning a skill . . . Reading for comprehension is a skill you need to learn. Good luck in pursuing that endeavor.
@@rayphenicie7344 Dude, the reason I called bullshit on your bullshit is because I read your bullshit. All you were really doing is to place an advertisement, anyway. You are so obvious. ;-)
One of the reasons why classical music is the preserve of the privileged white population is that music is not taught in state schools. At least where I come from.Ireland.
I was shocked to the core at the MeToo revelations from and about famous opera professionals. This level of talent is so rare that it should not be wasted. I am also furious at the degradation of public schools in the US who do not teach appreciation of this music to the degree that the imbalance of revenues has gotten worse than one would imagine. Having said that... ...I am a very aggressive "shusher" toward people whose conversations and cell phone activity don't stop when the conductor raises the baton. This is not the 18th century when spoken theatre and opera had very little competition as public entertainment compared to today. We are now in huge opera houses that seat more than a thousand people at a time whose noise would drown everything out if they all conversed, played cards, or did anything else that happened in Mozart's time. It's rude to ruin other people's music/theatre experience with ticket prices being what they are now.
i thought i was crazy. im a jazz person and ive spent the past 3 semesters as a music major at a very classical oriented school (not necessarily by choice, though next year ill finally be transferring to a school thats a bit more jazz oriented) and ive always gotten this unwelcoming vibe from people here. there always seems to be some kind of rumor going around about how someones "not even that good" or backhanded sympathy like "i feel so bad for (insert person) in my studio". its just weird!
After watching parts of the 2024 Olympics, you are left to wonder how bad the same trends are in rhe athletic industrial complex. Thank God for Simon Biles who has found back agains this and showed gymnasts don't have to be 13-year-old waifs to compete at that level and deal with the (hopefully rare) sexual predations of some coaches.
@ non-white classical music (performers): have a look at Vietnam. They are actually not bad. But one thing you should not forget: You cannot isolate the music from its background. Even white new-world performers sound slightly different than European performers, regardless whether they have Anglo or Latin roots.
Here in Canada, some of the musicians from Asia perform at tgehe highest levels. I don't think you can always deduce the background of a musician from how they play? That sounds like a suspicious claim. I think it's different if you discuss composition.
This video was breath of fresh air; Unfortunately, it happens way too often that people are looked down upon for not having the “cookie cutter” classical music background. Hence one of the reasons why I decided to write my article from The Flute Examiner that talks about my journey as a flutist on the autism spectrum (If you’re interested, it’s called Removing the Mask: A Flutist’s Journey on the Spectrum
I get something else: I like to think of myself as a musician and composer, but, not having any piece of paper that certifies this and not being part of "the community", there is no way any of my music can be performed or listened to. No matter how much the "ignoramuses" say they like what I write, not a single "serious" musician will touch any of my stuff with the end a barge-pole, because, as I am not a member of the club already, I probably do not deserve to be let in anyway. "No: I do not need to listen to your music! I know already it cannot possibly be good!"
You are so right. That is precisely how the hegemony works. It really is a complete joke the way they defensively scoff at anyone who is outside of the institutions. I have a master's from the Paris Conservatory and decided to quit that whole community to make music independently because of how miserable it made me and now guess what? Even though I'm way happier with the music I'm writing now and get a much better response from a broader public, the people I knew from the conservatories wouldn't even acknowledge its existence because it isn't linked to their institutions. Learn how to make electronic music, that way you will be able to make exactly the music that you want and you won't need to join their sick club :)
I decided, definitively, not to go into classical music pretty early on. Despite that, I joined a national youth orchestra. The bullying, passive-aggresiveness, competitiveness, putting-others-down, name-dropping, elitist environment was like a high school times a hundred. As someone who was there as an amateur with no professional ambitions, I was seriously looked down upon. Some of these young musicians (around 14-20) already had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol or self-harm, and who can blame them, in an environment where whether someone was worth the chair they sat on was one of the most popular conversation topics... ...so I went into academia. I must be a masochist.
I would like to disagree, only coming from my experience. From my specific expereince of being in an orchestra, yes, some kids were forced and abused to do violin and stuff, but everybody, even my conductors, loved all kinds of music, and never thought of classical music as being the highest. I am actually a metalhead, and I love classical music as being metal's supportive grandad. Sure, im not saying nobodys snobbish, but i feel like the idea of classical music being the "establishment" is most likely just artificial just because of our connotation to the delicateness and precision that style must have, and how it relates to old aristocracy. But music styles for different peoples change.
I remember when I first discovered this trove of TH-cam opera recordings about 2012-13. Suddenly I could listen to (and compare) voices, technique, recordings going back more than a hundred years. Initially it was just tenors, then I remembered Mom's faves Deanna Durbin and Eileen Farrell and I rediscovered them. Callas, and Anna Moffo was a cautionary tale. But the comments... Some astonished me with the spite and venom. Yes, there is elitism everywhere. However it is sharper, more refined, more than toxic, outright poisonous in the opera world.
Well, as usual this screed ignores Asians and Asian Americans, who I dare say are far over represented in music schools in this country, and would be in orchestras too if they didn’t decide to become doctors instead. I am Asian American myself, btw. My dad was a very good musician who played in the local symphony as a college student but then became a doctor. His brother, however, became a jazz and pop musician and played in nightclubs. I get what you mean about classical music being seen as elitist, but I think it has more to do with people who don’t enjoy classical music using that as an excuse for not going to concerts. Most of them have never been to a concert past maybe age 12, remembering only that they got “dragged” to a concert by their parents after being forced to dress their Sunday best. They don’t realize that that isn’t really necessary any more. So I reject the elitist charge. Sometimes you just close your mind to certain kinds of music. I certainly barely take notice of modern pop music. It’s so fake,,with all the autotune and “producing” that takes place now. But I think it’s sad when people can’t bring themselves to go to the occasional orchestra concert or piano recital to hear works that, after hundreds of years and thousands of performances, still continue to fascinate and challenge the musicians who perform it and dedicate their lives to it. The quality of musician in a decent regional orchestra is very high these days. It might benefit people if they learn to appreciate that as is, rather than thinking it would be “better” if it was dressed up like a Taylor Swift production.
Insecurity differences between sopranos and mezzo-sopranos: An insecure soprano pushes their own insecurity unto other singers, especially those who are newer to the “cult”, while an insecure mezzo just doesn’t sing. A soprano with lots of self esteem is usually really sweet and you would often misinterpret them as a mezzo 😂 As a classical singer, studying musicology, I can confirm. I was first a percussionist, then a young chorus girl, then 15 years old me, started taking voice lessons. First, I wanted to do musical theatre, then I wanted to be more of a pop singer, but then I started singing more classical and I felt this was my home. Then I came to my first professional operetta role and I became a victim of elite-taught sopranos. NowI miss the musical theatre 😂
Rich demean modern music, the poor demonize the rich music. Both may have truths and usage of attacks to express frustrations they have that may stem from insecurity. Anyone can be spoiled and close minded, pride is universal and rewarding, humility is hard to earn but provides deep inner peace
@Cait this was an AMAZING video. Thank you so much! I have seen a bit of the elitist and ab-censored relationship between teacher and student in classical music myself -- from being yelled at continuously in violin class (and me crying), to hearing about how composers need to have an elite understanding of scores (old classical and contemporary music). I never went to conservatory at the college level (I did a pre-college music program in high school) and it was such a f*cking pressure cooker. I opted to study composition because 1) I liked making music I wanted to hear, and 2) I could kinda avoid the pressures of being a music performer. But even in the composition world, there's elitism. I felt like I couldn't bring my musical background of rock music (from listening to my dad's tapes when I was little) or my Indian music background. Composition to me isn't about following rules, it's about understanding SOUND, and THEMES, and creating music you personally like -- not trying to follow elite composers just because you have to, or because it's the "in thing" for contemporary classical music. I felt pressured to poop out 8-minute pieces every couple of weeks for my teacher/composers-recital -- you know how hard it is to compose a fully original 8-minute piece?? Anyway, loved this video, and the previous video you did on classical music dying -- it hits a lot of themes in this one. Thanks so much!!
I’m so sorry you had to experience that. 🙏 It shouldn’t be that way, and I totally agree. I hope whatever path you decide to follow brings you health and happiness (and music)! 🤍 (also holy moly yes, I had a composition friend or two and I’ll tell ya, I did not envy them 😅)
A lot of what you're saying is applicable to most of if not all music I'm a Mexican learning classical guitar. But my background is heavy metal. Believe me blaming "the privileged" or the elitist isn't helping. A lot of musicians are terribly insecure and suffer from imposter syndrome. Regardless of musical background. We're out of touch with non musical people and don't realize that we do have the freedom to do as we please. Classical music isn't unique to these criticisms. It's just been doing it longest.
That's really interesting! I have very little experience in any genres outside classical music, but I"m sad to hear this is prevalent everywhere. I wonder what it is about music that creates these kinds of "us vs them" mentalities. You'd think it'd bring us all together under the umbrella of something we love!
@@ScoresUnstitched I believe it's the edgy and harmful need for competitive advantage in all areas of human endeavor that keeps the toxicity flowing. It's like students are taught to loathe coming in at the silver and bronze level in everything and keep their eyes on the gold. Our education system (I'm blaming families more than the classroom environment) teaches students to only look at scholarly endeavors as to how they will help their future careers and not for the joy of the endeavor itself. In other words, cultural values have to change to where people value scholarly endeavors of all kinds and equally for the pursuit itself and not only how it looks in a cover letter or CV. 🥰
I hate how people judge singers these days. As someone just getting into it, it is scary to watch performances on youtube which sound amazing since the people singing are trained professionals, only to read comments beneath that state how terrible singer xy is and how much better some dead singer has been. It is highly disturbing to me and kinda makes me scared getting into it, since somehow you will never get good enough? Which is bizzare because i changed from violin to singing because I thought it was more individual and free, well whoops
I think contemporary musicians like Taylor swift and many flaunting rap songs, are really shallow and pointless to hear. I get enfureated by the thought of them being the leaders of the music industry. I tried classical, but I get confused as I feel overwhelmed by unusual melodies to which I not know what to think of feel of. However, I found movie musical scores, the blend of visual and audio storytelling just gets you that cathartic high these two other media's seldom accomplish. I listen to some classic and modern "mainly phonk surprisingly" because both feel like there is a sincere effort and wound place in them, whilst most of the modern music feel like vocalized defense mechanisms rather than introspective vulnerable emotions. I think shallowness of thought can infect any groups and I think both classical and modern are no exception. I also think that Modern music against classical, is a hinderance to the complexity and effort classical music requires. I see many modern listeners refuse and have an extreme reaction against old music, almost if they;'re defending a wound I was prodding. The failure of processing wounds and trauma to create productive harmony is what I think the problem is with most things these days.
That's what I wish she would address-or if you don't in fact find elitism anywhere else (ha ha, but I know you do), please explain why. She didn't do this and that's why I mark her video an epic fail.
@@jgrab1She did address it, she addressed in the beginning. Y’all really need to listen not with your feelings but with logic. She clearly stated that there are folx who made this point and she understood where they were coming from. However, she’s is choosing to focus on this Classical because most folx using this argument, are largely doing so as a form of deflection, instead of acknowledging that it is needs to be addressed for those who are in the Classical community. In other words, it’s personal to her since she recently left the Classical community for this reason, so, she addressing it as someone who specialises in the art form, and has experienced this toxicity.
If your purpose is self-actualisation then being an orchestral player isn't for you. As a soloist or conductor you might stand a better chance but there is only so much creativity you can do before Tchaikovsky's Violin concerto stops being that.
I knew a guy who was a “recording engineer” that refused to record anyone who used distortion or other “unnatural effects”. He was a blues elitist and died alone.
Well, actually gatekeeping and toxicity happened in many cultures. As a Javanese who studied Gamelan in my early years (like 7 to 12 y.o), my voice was insulted for too deep for being sinden / traditional Javanese singer. I read about Japanese music too, I have this elitism. Although many Western people praise of how we Javanese equality on music especially Gamelan, few of the Western know how elitist too the Gamelan.
You kind of overlooked the second factor about Classical music , you have to be incredibly rich to be allowed to start in Orchestral music , my grade, Jr high and high school did not support Orchestra , only band . I have wanted to play cello when I was young . Band was not for me I hated my tuba , alto sax years . I started playing bass guitar since gradeschool. My professional electric basses ( RIC 4003 , Fender Ultra Jazz bass , G&L 2000) all cost less then a Jr High / HS intermediate cello. I have a incredible resentment of Viol instruments , even as a adult the incredible cost of the instruments and lessons are beyond my ability to pay . And IM USED TO PROFESSIONAL Instruments. 😮 Classical music's exclusivity will eventually be its undoing and I won't mourn for it😊
As Tantacrul points out in this video, the classical music field does not own the shop on snobbery and exclusivity. It's found everywhere in the pursuit of about 94 other musical genres. Theater too. It's a human pursuit. th-cam.com/video/azpxUnIgsts/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Tantacrul
It's incredibly difficult to be successful in the classical music world. It's competitive to the max, and like those who wish to play on a professional sports team, the vast majority of musicians aspiring to earn a seat in a major symphony orchestra or opera house will fail. Nearly all of the successful ones, including composers whose music gets played, were prodigies. This is one of those cold hard facts that's not talked enough about, especially by teachers, who too often push their students to "follow their dream" or perpetuate the lie that you can overcome mediocre talent with sheer hard work. It's like saying you can become the center of a professional basketball team if you're five-foot-two simply by working harder than the seven-foot guy. Too many people competing for an infuriatingly small number of spots is the root of some of the toxicity. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing. If universities and teachers were honest with their students, it might help alleviate the numbers of frustrated and bitter musicians they send out into the world.
Apparently I missed the open audition for the symphony band in college by one person. I was disappointed at the time by the the band director was mad abusive so I dodged a bullet with that one.
This type of toxicity is not unique to classical musicians. Mathematics is another. There was an old professor at my graduate school who had a favorite phrase -- "every waking moment", meaning you should spend every waking moment of your life studying or thinking about mathematics. While most of us didn't go to that extreme, the expectation was definitely that math should be your absolute #1 priority in life, at least until you finish your degree. And for anyone who wants to "make it" as a professional research mathematician (as opposed to teaching math at a community college like myself), you can expect years of strenuous work with little job security (think post-docs), constant pressure from mentors/advisors, and high competition for research grants and tenured positions. Chess is another. Most grandmasters begin seriously studying and playing the game about age 5-7 years old. Young children spend hours each day memorizing openings, practicing tactics, analyzing their games under supervision of GM mentors. Instead of goofing around like most teenagers, you'll commit to trying to earn norms at highly competitive tournaments, and if you live in the US you'll have to travel to Europe often. If you don't have your GM title by age 18, you're almost certainly out of the running to play at the super-GM level, so you'll be relegated to making poverty level wages living off of giving chess lessons and maybe starting a Twitch stream. The good news is -- if you can find a way to make a stable living that doesn't depend on being the top 0.001% of your field, then you can actually enjoy it. I was a music minor in college, and while I'm not a professional musician, I enjoy accompanying choirs, singing classical music, and playing in a handbell ensemble. I make a small amount of money as a church musician and give piano lessons. I'm also constantly listening to new music (spending several months on a new/different composer, or style). While I don't think I'll ever write another research paper in math, I still enjoy working on problems and picking up a book to learn a bit more about some branch of math I never had time to pursue in grad school. And I'm just an amateur chess player, but I enjoy playing and improving my game. Bottom line -- a passion shouldn't feel like a chore, and if it does, there's probably some toxicity going on somewhere.
Hahaha, I'm sure it has its own difficulties! But yeah, I work for a normal corporate 9-5 org now and I can't believe how much people are allowed to get away with. Like, being forgiving of mistakes and allowing people to take time off? Nahhh, what's that?
As a kid started piano lesson in a more or less classical setting. Im now an adult, picked up the guitar some 15 odd years ago and studying jazz with a teacher. I cannot begin to explain how fucked up you guys have teaching set up. There IS a way to enjoy music actually get good at it and even learn to improvise and transcribe, and its not higher institutions for muscial degrees. Holy shit i am so fn thankful i went the other route.
It depends on what you want. If your goal is to play Chopin in front of a bunch of Chopin centered music theorists and win the competition, then you won't get around the system. If you want to entertain an actual audience, then you are absolutely right.
I think classical elitism is getting somewhat better... At least from where I'm coming from I can see more and more music colleges are looking into ways to make you feel like you belong. I think that ego is ruining some of the industry, but it is getting better, it is getting more unacceptable to be egoistic, it is less about elitism and more about showing music to more and more people!
I hope that's true! I've been out of the industry for about 5 years now, so it could be that I just haven't seen recent changes. It'd be amazing to see some change in this. 🙏
I believe it's the grooming. Like religion, the indoctrination starts very young for classical musicians. There are no other genres I know of that actively discourage children from pursuing music in general at the risk of damaging their future career. Other comparable disciplines would be ballet, highly-skilled athletes, anything where you're isolated from other kids, told you're special/different than them, and if you do anything else, you'll lost what makes you special.
@@ScoresUnstitched And it did not ring true within you that many people come to "classical music" because they like it? I don't know. In my opinion this sounds like some parenting issues existed when you were a kid. But please stop this projection of your own ideas onto others.
Yes, my classical piano teacher even discouraged me from playing other types of music and other instruments. She looked down on me for being in the school's brass band, hahaha.
@@ScoresUnstitched Just to raise a question or two... How does this comparison to religious indoctrination account for people who adopt religion later in life? Also, on the contrary, I know someone (a viola student of mine for nearly 10 years) who was born into strict conservative religious indoctrination, grew up going to church, and then made the decision to leave the church and sought out a new cultural identity before he was mid-aged... I think he's a great person and should be free to pursue what resonates with him on his life path, and I would only offer the same to an individual who may decide to seek spiritual or religious ideals later in their life. I'm attempting to turn a light on here and simply say that I've learned it's important to be careful making assumptions and generalizations about people and their beliefs... The world is a jungle, try not to take what you believe in too seriously! Wishing you the best.
@@shelbytrevor4101This woman’s self-presentation is that of an acute narcissist. She is not interested in conversing with you; she likes her own half-baked boilerplate and believes it to be revelatory. She is not interested in thinking anything through any farther and Your function is not to contribute but to adulate.
One of the things I question is how much classical musicians ACTUALLY enjoy the music itself. When one attends a concert, it feels like a museum presentation, and a way to get "validation" from colleagues rather than them getting a genuine, spontaneous reaction from the music.
Have you tried actually asking people who play classical music instead of just questioning yourself. And any live performance of any music genre for an audience is either gonna be for a paycheck or for some kind of validation, if it was just '' genuine, spontaneous reaction from the music.'' they could might as well just have stayed home.
Lots of classical musicians I’ve spoken to express boredom by classical concerts. When I was in conservatory, most students around me would just text in performance class- that can’t be a sign of enjoyment. Also the number of musicians who express frustration or even quit at least shows that the love of music can’t be strong enough to compensate the burden. You’re right, a merely spontaneous performance from the player without the urge to “succeed” won’t do in a high profile gig. It’s just not realistic.
I sang plenty of classical music I did not enjoy at first and learned to appreciate whilst studying them. There is true value in exposing yourself to something that isn’t instantly catching you. However, almost all modern classical pieces I have come across were horrible to learn, to perform and to listen to. I never got to appreciate them and now would absolutely refuse to perform because they make me feel physically uneasy, like a scratchy jumper that makes your skin break out in hives for weeks! But I felt unsafe expressing that back when I sang on a competitive level. I recently saw an opera written in 2023 and in the program the composer was described as: “…is not afraid to write what might be heard as ‘accessibly’ appealing music.” The way I understand this quote is, “pretty music is vulgar and uneducated and if a composer dares to write something enjoyable these days it is a very brave thing to do”. My interpretation could be confirmation bias, because I have always felt that in the classical music world one is not allowed to criticise modern classical music for being “not enjoyable or not pretty” because if you don’t enjoy that particular piece, surely you are not smart enough to appreciate the intellectual genius behind it. Imposter syndrome kicks in and nobody dares to say anything that could even remotely imply a lack of intellect. This was always just implied in conversation though. To see it written in black and white where “‘accessibly’ appealing” is used as something that is unusual or brave made me very angry and then super sad. Nothing short of The Emperor’s Cloths. Now that I am no longer inside this bubble I feel very free to say: I love and listen to certain forms of classical music, end of the story. I no longer try to explain or hide that I avoid unpleasant music. Because exposing myself to uncomfortable things because they are unfamiliar and things that are uncomfortable because they have no intention to connect with the audience are two VERY different things! Connecting with an audience isn’t automatically selling out.
I don't see how you get this from listening at a classical music concert. Aren't you just overlaying your own narrative? You trot out the same clichés. Do you actually like classical music or do you wish it was like something you do like?
I think that the world at large has a toxicity problem and is not limited to only what seems to exist in classical music. Passion can appear as obsessive to anyone who does not share in that same passion. Work environments of all levels and walks of life are highly highly toxic, and many demands are placed upon those who participate. They are required to submit to dominance controls of office or workplace politics for instance, along with other forms, delivered both directly and indirectly, of abuse, and as well of assaults on their personal identity during the majority of their waking hours -and unless deceased, are required to show up at their desks or workplace regardless. This social agenda and societal etiquette training or “indoctrination” starts in the earliest of childhood, where teachers and other authoritative figures impress the common cultural social standards and rules of societal etiquette accordingly, and those do not ‘fit in’ the mould are essentially and speedily shamed through forced experiences of not having any “in” friends, of not being chosen for participation in the school play or sport team. Classical music has gotten a bad rap, and it continues so because it is singularly being held responsible for an elitism that exists prevalently in all walks of life. To do well in any college, or any day job one must clearly be obsessed and one must cordially submit to the social agenda and societal etiquette respectively involved.
Hi there, interesting thought and very dark, rightly so. I don't think classical music is a scapegoat here, it's more of a microcosm of yes, the elitism which is quite prevalent in society at large. It's difficult to resist its pull. I wonder what elitist views we hold onto, or find it hard to exorcise, like a troublesome demon in our otherwise pleasant home. Or is the whole house riddled with demons - I can't figure out this metaphor!
“Western, Eurocentric”. What does that combination even mean? Would you describe Chinese music as “Sinocentric”? All systems are “exclusionary” to some degree, otherwise they aren't systems. What do you mean by elitism and why is that bad? You used that word like 500 times. Major Orchestras are drawn from a worldwide talent pool so expecting them to represent the “city they serve” is absurd. Besides why should they be representative of the city as opposed to their patrons? The people who actually care and buy the tickets. Who cares if a profession draws a certain ethnic group. Would you complain about pro sports in the same way? Jane Austen’s characters are a shade away from poverty; that’s why the women are seeking husbands. There’s nothing “warped” about the classical musicians I know. And I know many. They are very well adjusted. At least not worse than some other high performance profession.
Toda la razón. Se que hay muchos idiotas elitistas en la industria musical pero lo de "Western, Eurocentric white" me hizo reír mucho. Hacer una critica en base a fundamentos raciales es lo más tonto y woke que puede haber. La música occidental fue hecha por hombres occidentales los cuales son blancos en su mayoría; me sorprendería ver que no fuese así. Eso sería, por lo menos, raro. La "falta" de diversidad no es un argumento válido.
I highly believe that a lot of this toxicity comes form ill guided people that think of themselves as the high regarded classical music consumers. They think they are special by any means just for listening to anything from Bach to Beethoven yet without any real meaning other then fully diving into elitism on their own. It's this "classical music fans and heavy metal fans are birds of the same feather" nonsense that drives the wedge further down the flesh of reality, dividing people even more. That means music journalists spreading such unfounded ideas are just as guilty. At one point I found my way into the world of classical music (whatever this terms means to anyone). Started some listening sessions here and some over there. Eventually found my niches I love to reside when listening to such old musical compositions. But always with the mind of a person that loves movie scores, video game soundtracks and more. I'm following recommendations all over the place. At some point in my life I felt the urge to listen to something that tickles my inner child and also caters to my progressing self as well as to anything in between representing remotely me from the past to the now. Popular music genres could only take me thus far. And I have many nostalgia trips every now and then. But only the vast world of classical music, lots of jazz recordings and also more traditional leaning musicand song styles keep me fascinated in listening to music as such. Music that has a touch of humanity despite the bad things happening in the industry as a whole. The music itself is innocent. And when people get driven out and far away, what will become of all of that? Many people claiming elitism in classical music will not perform as musicians otherwise, maybe creating some awesome tango recordings or some fascinating salsa manifestos. Fusions of musical styles incorporating accoustic instruments and different lyrical/vocal styles from all over the world aren't knew. We have no excuses to cling to the old elitism commentary while ignoring the already existing ideas making things more diverse and humane. Maybe it'd help a lot if we just let the elitists dwell in their own echo chambers?
My inabliity to deal with the avant garde-styled politics of the music industry in the 1970s in music school ultimately led me to develop a new definition of music, based on the modern advancements of museolinguistics and neuropsychology. You may see my abridged TEDx presentation of the definition and the process leading up to it and its significance at th-cam.com/video/_GDL08pPFwg/w-d-xo.html Music: What's Your Definition?
10:30 you know you're calling this music eurocentric when it's literally from Europe. The people who made the music are European. Is it really surprising that mostly white people are interested in it? Especially in a majority white country, so that would shift it even more. Classical music is also not that popular in general so it would make sense statistically that most of the people involved would come from the majority ethnic group of a country.
Music is a completely subjective art form as well, so claiming a certain type of music is superior just because you think so and that it's super complex is ridiculous. It's all ego stroking at the end of the day. I'll stick to my death metal thanks (video was really interesting)
As someone who hates classical music, it is music or the upper classes. Not for a normie like me who prefers third wave emo, who has no understanding of musical theory. Let the elitists gatekeep, it's not my music taste.
Please believe me when I say that elitism is part and parcel of our culture in all endeavors including whatever music you admire. th-cam.com/video/azpxUnIgsts/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Tantacrul
experienced classical training in music for over 10 years and have experienced many genres in modern music. the least arrogant people i met were in classical music. yes maybe they seem a bit nosy at times but they value their craft and music. thats why they act like they are something special bc to them making music is something special. The most arrogant douchebags who arent even able to play one single melody on any instrument or who havent even written or played a single piece of music in their lives is recent electronic music like edm and psytrance. they dont even have an ear for music but act like they are mozart themselves.
I'm from the rest of the world, but I grew up with parents who believed in be-bop jazz to the point of religion. It's never ebbed with them, they died with it. So, this idea that the purest and most important form of music is jazz which is really ONLY performed by about 100 musos between 1959 and 1969 (NOT 1970, because Miles Davis became a TRRRAAAAIIIITTTTOOORRRR and went jazz-fusion), this elitism is rife pretty much everywhere. I became interested in indie rock about 1991 and same there: they are the coolest and most important people, bow down to their importance. I mean, I regurgitated all of that, and only realised it maybe I don't know, a decade ago. Here's another: circus people are the ones who are more amazing than other artists; New Circus people are more important than regular animal-circus people; (it gets more granular). e.g. circus artists > classical musicians (who have to s.i.t. down and do nothing interesting, b.o.r.i.n.g). So, I left that social world and didn't try to make it in any of them, for I'd have to battle them just to get a gig. And you can imagine, this is the lot of those in the 20s. And hey, they all aren't like that, just ones who have eyes that are cold and distant, saying "you have to earn our attention". However, the classical world sound like the next level up. Which isn't surprising since it came from people who believed THEY were the ones who could access God. Hard to come down from that. Though if we all find out that God REAAALY preferred Nirvana over Beethoven and the second coming of Christ was Kurt Cobain, then everything is up for discussion.
Man, so many comments on this video just prove your point! But young people with new ideas, critical of the old ones, have always been criticized and mocked. Keep being you!
I find it interesting that classical music has no place for originality or uniqueness.. how can you possibly find yourself worth when your aspiration is to regurgitate somebody else's creation and play it in the way that everybody else has played it in the past? It's like a never-ending fraternity hazing ritual and somebody has to be getting off on it.. they're almost has to be a group of somebody's who enjoy watching the emotional destruction of otherwise talented people.. usually those who enjoy it most are those without the actual talent to create the thing
@@FilipeMRICCarneiro used to be.. Violinist.. Not GOOD.. not BY A LONG SHOT, but I noticed from the earliest education I received that there really wasn't much room for creativity at any time.. EVERYTHING was geared around creating an identical sound to what it was in the past.. I understand it for concert purposes etc, but didn't encourage creative thought or creative ideas and music and there was never any time or effort put into something like that.. the musicians are competing harshly against one another and against the people who played at 100 years ago.. I've seen incredible musicians lose their place for being interesting
But...cannot your criticisms be applicable to any highly demanding vocation? the professional or big time university athlete, gymnasts....dancers of course? Playing music at a really really high level is damned difficult...and I think you know that.....I once heard Rostropovich drilling and drilling a passage of the Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations just before he was to perform it......and not getting it every time at that! So I am not buying your criticisms.....even worse is that you fault Classical music for being born in Europe.....or being too "white".....those things arent deliberate, they just are!
i think the bigger issue in this video is summed up by the story at the beginning, where the person gets criticized for their compositions. while of course, professors are allowed to criticize students’ work, however calling it ‘daytime television’ doesnt fly. that reflects something wrong in the classical music world. how are you supposed to create inspiring/personal art if youre limited by the people teaching you? if someone does something in a way that you arent used to, that doesnt inherently make the product worse. while yes, there are standards in the classical music industry (as there are in all the other industries), however some people hang on to those standards with a vice grip. you dont obey the laws of music theory? try again. you clap in between movements? blasphemy. your personal tastes differ from someone elses? youre wrong. while i cant say i have had the most experience in this industry (im only a second year in college!) but i have experienced elitism and harsh critiques from professors and students alike.
The dirty little secret is this new music so "opposed" by the music world is EXTREMELY unpopular. Oh sure, we'll squirm through a premiere of screeches, yelps, moans and squeaks but inwardly we're making a shopping list while reading the program and checking the time. They blame everyone - racism, sexism, the "system" (how original). No, its audiences who are secret nationalists. No wait, it's wealth, privilege, anything but the music. And why just music? Few IT guys had childhoods not wrapped up with games, programming, electronics and immersion in the "system". The real question, can the artistry of a Wang, Malofeev, Trifonov or Van Cliburn be attained with a "holistic" approach or is the lifestyle so criticized here necessary? I left the classical world and decades later that decision seems so right. Stop blaming others for the way your life turned out!
People who love classical music aren't elitists. They're music lovers who appreciate the ability of genius and talent to take them places they've never been, just like lovers of the finest literature and visual art are. Is a person who goes to a Picasso exhibit or reads a Dostoevsky novel elitists, or do they just want the best that art has to offer. I'm really sorry you aren't successful in the classical music world. I hope you'll keep working hard and that will change.
She doesn't have to be in the classical world. She could have a fulfilling musical career and make great srt without being involved in classical music.
@@rodthom86 Maybe you're consistent and go ''ugh elitist :*s'' at anyone with a preference about what constitites ''the best art'', if not then you're a hypocritical elitist, just of an inverted-vanity kind. While conservatives are stuck in traditional elitism, it's largely liberal/leftist middle class dominating cultural commentary and criticism, and there there's a poptimist social climat full of inverted vanity elitism. People liftning up the superiority of say pop music as more immidiate and honest get the #YASSLSLAY treatment while people who lift up the superiority of classical music are elitists. It's complete cognitive dissonance. Both kinds of elitism are dumb if you pretend your preferences are objective, the problem is to know if people are speaking knowlingly subjectively or pseudo-objectively. People just tend to speak about their preferences in a very matter-of-fact way as if they're making some objective claim, but once you probe them the least they often say ''it's just my opinion of course''.
You have literally no idea of the gravity of your errors. Let's take "the aged folks who occasionally turn to physical violence to shut up the uninitiated". Nope, I have been going to concerts and performing for nearly 60 years and never saw that. To share my background, I had a music scholarship at Duke, studied with the former concertmaster of Toscanini's NBC Symphony Orchestra who had a Guarneri del Jesu, performed in symphony and chamber orchestras for decades, along with jazz all over Las Vegas. I have a jazz violin cd coming out later this year, and also some recordings for jazz piano. My uncle won the Queen Elizabeth competition, and was one of the great violinists of the 20th century, Berl Senofsky, and my aunt taught with Pablo Casals and studied with Piatigorsky, and soloed all over the world and was the principal cellist of the Houston Symphony. Another uncle escaped the Holocaust and was a composer and conductor, who along with his wife, who was a pianist, taught at Indiana University. My mother was a concert pianist in her early days, and performed for Eleanor Roosevelt, and she was related to Arthur Rubinstein, who used to come over to hear her play piano. My father was the President of a symphony and my family is well acquainted with some of the greatest musicians this world has known. In all of my years, never have I or my family members witnessed what you wrote of, of aged folks turning to physical violence to shut up the uninitiated. What I have heard of is that sometimes students venture off in a direction, that can be a huge waste of time and energy, and there are serious criticisms of their music. If things were as you stated, then there really wouldn't be contemporary music, we would simply just be listening to others who wrote in a style similar to Beethoven, Brahms, or Tchaikovsky. But, that isn't the case, as new ideas come into being, and music evolves, in deference to your video. Yet, rejection, whether rightfully or wrongfully is a part of life, whether it be Michael Jordan not making his varsity basketball team, or Tchaikovsky not having his violin concerto being well received, or for that matter Schubert's 9th symphony or other works of Beethoven and Brahms getting panned. Sometimes with criticism a student can take something that he or she learned and make it better, and travel down a better path. You then demonstrate zero cognizance per your remark that "Far Right Nationalists complain when immigrants enter their country". First you have no understanding of nationalism, which has meant placing a top priority of the interests of the citizens of one country, such as securing the safety for the citizens of the US by not having murderers, cartel and gang members, and sex traffickers coming across our border illegally, for which people are being murdered, raped, and we had about 268,000 opioid deaths in 3 years. You see those who are common sense people, desire legal immigration. What you attribute to far right is basically common sense, like having low inflation, low gas prices, a secure border, no war in the Ukraine, no war in Israel, and for legal immigration to have a wonderful flow. Nationalism really references uplifting all in a country, of prosperity for all. I would encourage you to learn instead of making false proclamations out of a lack of understanding. Then when you wrote of "other cultures have something to offer", inferring that those horrific right wing extremists (oops, normal people who simply desire a good economy for all, legal immigration, and peace in the world) don't recognize that....well, you are wrong. In my upcoming violin cd that will be out later this year, I wrote one piece based on Spanish culture, another on Latin culture, and others that are blues, that came from African culture. Even Kapustin and Gershwin wrote some jazzy music which came from African culture. My uncle wrote an Indian Symphony, from his time in India, along with what is kind of the national song of India, that has been waking people up in that country since 1936. All of that is in deference to what you claimed. I am going to give you some life advice......if you want to perpetuate false narratives of stereotypes and hate against older generations, or now for more than half of the country that sees the train wreck of the last three years of a liberal and radical administration.....then if you don't get hired by MSNBC or CNN, I don't know that your energies are going to realize great monetary rewards. Lastly, you talk about diversity in orchestras. First, the focus is on the best players, as opposed to diversity, albeit there should be great emphasis in music education for every student who would like to play an instrument or sing to have that opportunity. However, I don't see you complaining about diversity in the NBA or NFL that are dominated by blacks, or in the music industry that is dominated by blacks and Latinos. There are more Asians in orchestras than their percentage of the US population, along with a fair amount of Russian's and Eastern Europeans....oops, I guess they are white people. All of this from the first 5 minutes and change of your video. Just crazy Your dialogue reminds me of the words of the famed economist Thomas Sowell, whom you likely have no idea of, and for which he happened to be black, and was truly prolific. Sowell would describe you as "seeking to enjoy a sense of moral superiority out of your ignorance". I really hope that you will learn, as you seem to be very intelligent, but brainwashed, and unable to really see the world as it is. Another life lesson, speak of what you know, and not of what you don't, but learn of what you don't know before you make wrongful judgments and stereotype large groups of people. Sterotypical generalizations often are the basis for racism, prejudice, and hate, for which engaging in such would make you a hypocrite if you do stand against hate.
My old teacher was a famous opera singer. He said the music industry was terrible, and it’s because most people aren’t okay in themselves. He said great singers like Joan Sutherland and Pavarotti were very solid as people, because they made it. They didn’t get in their own way to success. He told me to not get in my own way. Also, my grandfather used to tell me, “There’s always room at the top. It’s down on the bottom where it’s crowded. If you’re willing to work to be the best, there is always room.” Many people don’t want to be the best; they want to pretend to be the best. You should serve the music and not your personality disorder, and many people are using their powerful position to serve their own egos and personality disorders.
Well said!
It's crowded at the bottom SPECIFICALLY because there is NOT room at the top.
Thanks for sharing your opinions! I came to study classical music in Europe from a popular latin-american background, so this idea of "western european classical music is the highest kind of music" I've been feeling it very strong ... and honestly it just one way of doing music, but that idea scary many people, especially conservatory teachers.
@gherrera-benavides I come with a cultural background of Indian music so I feel you about conservatories putting western classical, "fine-art" music as the "best, cleanest" elitist form of music. Personally, as a composer i've been studying Renaissance folk music as the percussion used in those has similar usages to mridangams (drums) in Indian music! Anyway, I hope you're able to enjoy classical music the way you want :)
14:25 - I think it's worth mentioning that it doesn't apply to all countries. You are speaking about conditions in America, as I deduce. I'm from Europe and here in many countries, for example in Poland, where I'm from, music education in primary, secondary and higher music school are all free. As most young people are inclined to study something, continuation of musical education therefore mostly depends on the willingness and dedication of students and very rarely depends on economical conditions of the family.
And I must say that I agree with the toxicity of the classical music education, exactly as you describe it. It's a great relief for me to hear that I'm not alone in this stress, never being enough, not allowing myself to rest even for half an hour, because I always need to practice more and be better, since I'm never good enough. It's healing for me to hear that this musical thing is just like this for most of people and I'm not strange that I feel all this anxiety of musical study since the childhood. Thank you
@@natasza.mroczekyou are a musician in europe?
Agreed that the music industry and education is much more inclusive in Europe .
as someone who lives in the US, I would like to point out that most K-12 schools public and private offer some form of music instruction for free or at limited additional cost. Almost every single school has a band/orchestra of some form. However if you want to get good at something you have to pay for private lessons which will start to cost money.
I HATE when Europeans pretend that none of overseas problems concern them because "we got free everything". You comment is a lie, intentional or not. Classical music in Europe is consumed, produced and studied by the country's elites. And it's not because you had an hour of musical education at school for 10 years that classical music is "inclusive". Europe (especially countries like Poland) are ANYYHING but inclusive. Much less so than the US.
Maybe you had the economic privilege to study music in higher education but your poorer age mates would never choose such a path because of lack of opportunities.
Coming from an ordinary family, I couldn't afford 'smart' instruments - my modren violin was a target of fun; the fact that my parents live in rented accomofation was a way of excluding me. Mercifully, I was able to sit them out and do my own thing. Gut goodness - it took years. Everytime I see a working class child with a violin I light a candle for them mentally.
I really dont like the idea that Violinist who are classically trained looking down upon the lowly fiddler who in many cases learns that violin on their own . Violinist - Fiddlers same instrument completely different mindset.
The classical industry is so toxic. There's a reason I stopped actively pursuing an operatic career and instead do crazy operatic concerts in virtual platforms as a Cheshire Cat.
ye, and on top of that classical music is just an indoctrination of 12-tet major and minor chords. If you only dare to play a tritone even once, you are condemned as servant of Lucifers Black Metal gods...
Holy crap this is incredibly true and I’m saying this coming from contemporary classical music where people believe themselves to be at the forefront of all musical exploration. Despite this I found it practically identical to classical music, but with inverted values. If you dare do anything that isn’t radical enough and within the accepted boundaries of experimentation you are cast out, humiliated and quite frankly demonized. There is always a reason to hate the people doing something differently and it’s always made out to be objectively verifiable. It normally involves a completely fictionalized version of someone being created and spread within the community to exile them. The average person considers what I do (writing for and playing microtonal guitars) to be experimental but in contemporary music it was largely scoffed at as irrelevant by either jealous performers who weren’t pushing any boundaries that weren’t already pushed in the 70’s and 80’s or composers who were jealous because they weren’t good instrumentalists. I think in the end these people were angered that I had the courage to do my own thing so they wanted to see me fail so that they could feel as though they were superior. In the end that’s the goal of classical and contemporary classical music: feeling superior.
Oh man, I’m so sorry that’s been your experience. 😣 I hope the industry can find a way to get better! I feel like it’s driving people away in droves, musicians and audience members alike. But I hope you’re still composing!
@@ScoresUnstitched haha it definitely won't, that's the nature of the beast. But that's fine, I'm doing my own thing now and loving it!
I'm someone who had a very classical beginning of my musical journey and could've been a classical musician if not for a major musical moment that made me pick up the guitar and crank up the distortion.
I grew up in a modestly wealthy family, dad is a celebrity in the country but in the entertainment industry as a whole on radio and TV, so I wasn't in an elitist enviroment, and that's maybe why my passions were the thing that followed the family in our musical journey and not the belonging to any elitist society.
Family stories say I've been listening to classical music when I was a little fetus, my dad put headphones with classical music on my mom's belly when she was pregnant with me and in very early childhood they also bought me specifically live CDs and DVDs of concerts because dad believed it would be the most benificial for early musical development, and they turned out to be right! I had a very strong fascination stringed instruments and specifically the cello at first, luck was on our side when we discovered there was a cello specialist and professor a few streets from us, so we went to him when I was like 3 and he got me "diagnosed" with perfect pitch!
But at the same time while I tried learning the cello at age 4 my dad got me into blues, specifically BB KIng and Clapton, with a bit of rock like Springsteen, Santana and Led Zeppelin. Then he bought me Steve Vai's Visual Sound Theories DVD, which is his orchestral concert with the Metropole orchestra in Amsterdam and the way Steve literally conducted the entire orchestra with making weird noises on the guitar made me wanna start playing guitar! so I switched and never looked back since.
Now I'm 21, senior in my country's equivalent to Berklee and started to get in the industry as a session guitar player!
So yeah, the fact my background wasn't elitist or even classical related probably saved me from being with the wrong crowd :D
A good discussion, thanks! I did lots of classical music at school, and grew up in the culture you describe. Interestingly, as someone who works in biomedical research now, I see the same toxic culture in medicine ("we had to work 20 hour shifts, and we survived, so shut up and don't complain"), and in research ("you won't have time to go to the movies - you'll be reading research articles all weekend"). There are signs of progress; that as our cultural understanding of the damage these toxic cultures do becomes more explicit, more people are rejecting the status quo. A woman I worked with in a previous job - the head of plastic surgery ad a major cancer hospital - noted with optimism that many of the young male doctors refused to attend after hours meetings because they had to be at home to bathe/feed/read bedtime stories for young children. So I absolutely acknowledge what you're describing, but I remain hopeful for change.
Just want to encourage to keep creating. This was phenomenal😊
I think a lot of what you say must apply to any performance-based discipline, dance, ballet, (gymnastics?) - theatre perhaps to a lesser extent. Now, 25 years ago, when I had just graduated from music college, as I started meeting more people in the profession I began to recognise that I didn't want to spend all my time with these professional musicians, so I decided to work with amateurs instead (as a conductor) and I also became a music teacher, which I do to this day and which suits me. It would be interesting, don't you think, to do a video comparing amateur and professional music. Can either one live without the other? Most (numerically) of the most memorable performances that I remember (either as listener of performer) have been by amateur musicians. And that's what counts, doesn't it? Yet, OTOH, all my inspirational teachers have been professionals.
What you’re discussing in this video is what I call the “Meistersinger Syndrome”. Wagner’s Meistersinger succinctly (in 4.5 hours…succinct, right) describes what you’re discussing. And that attitude is imbued in every organization, from mom and pop stores to global mega-corps and governments.
Lol with Wagnerian operas average length 😂
Wow!! I think that explains my screaming oboe teacher (and a few other things)!! I just remember so often feeling like the "please pass the jelly" guy in the Grey Poupon commercial. I also remember the sense of relief when I returned to the waiting arms of Hall and Oates after years of five-hour practice room days chasing the Three Bs.
WOW! Yes! I experienced (& participated) in that elitist environment until a couple of years after high school. In one of my other comments, I started to mention that, but didn't because I didn't feel it was relevant to the rest of the comment. Looking back, my parents were elitist, not necessarily about Classical music, but about educational status. I was raised on Opera and Classical music & loved it! I still do. Fortunately for me, my skills as a violinist were so abysmal that I didn't have to worry about getting caught up in the "Bubble". I'm grateful for your insights which have helped me to analyze some of my past & why I took the path I did, which included growing to love almost all forms of music. 👍
This is what I did to the "authorities of classical music" if there is such a thing. I raised my middle finger and said "I'll do whatever the hell I want." Despite how the purists like classical music in the purists form 100% I went along and created an electric orchestra and now I have a following because of that. I went out of the box. Something that the stuffy instructors of the recent past don't know how to do. Musicians in classical music in the past went out of the box (they just "fail" to tell us this out of their own convenience). As I have told my students, if you like it and want to do something radical and different, then do it. No one is stopping you, I sure am not. I encourage you to do it. Simple as that, not always but it's all about don't listen to the nut cases. Something that one of my piano teachers in college told me.
This was such a good video. I’ve wanted to be an opera singer since I was 14 and have started to study opera on the side two years ago while pursuing a graduate degree in something else. I personally love not going to a conservatory because the great opera singers of the past did not do that (e.g. Beverly Sills, Roberta Peters, and a bunch of others from the older generations). I didn’t know that the toxicity happens in the industry as well as the schools. I’m not someone who is taking the traditional conservatory route because my parents don’t want me to do that. So, I’ve been paying for my own lessons and taking free classes on the subjects needed to be an opera singer. I want to make opera for the masses in the way that Deanna Durbin did; but, it seems that the industry doesn’t want to go in that direction. Then, my other option is classical crossover, which I also love but is not my passion.
I love that direction for so many reasons! I think it’s totally possible to break into the industry that way through the competition route. You could be an “overnight” sensation, the black sheep - who is she and where did she come from? (I can dig some dramatic flair 😉) But more seriously, I think that kind of diversity would do the industry SO much good. Literally everyone has a conservatory degree (usually 2 or 3). But why? I actually think the classical music world might be more accepting of unorthodox talent than most other industries. An education will get you connections, but a talent will get you the career. I hope it works out for you!
@@ScoresUnstitched Thank you so much! I’m so glad that you think it’s possible to break into the industry without a degree. I would love to be successful without one! And I totally agree with you that this kind of diversity is what’s needed in opera. Most of the great opera singers of the past didn’t have conservatory educations because they couldn’t afford it (e.g. Beverly Sills and Pavarotti). I hope the classical music industry is accepting of unorthodox talent cause there’s so much talent out there. Thank you! I hope it works out for me too!
You did well to study something that will pay the bills, while pursuing your musical interests. I wish I had.
@@jenniferliggett6385 Thank you! Unfortunately, a lot of people in the classical music world tell musicians that they can’t have interests outside of classical music and that they only need to study it so they get amazing at it. It’s sad.
I'm one of the exceptions (I think). Despite growing up poor, I started on piano at the age of 4 and learned to read music notation, but gave up music after a couple years until I bought a cheap electric guitar at age 12. I figured out how to rig up a home made 2-track using a duel cassette boom box and a tape recorder (to bounce tracks down) and experimented with recording and eventually became a metal head. My studies of guitar scales and chords lured me to the land of music theory, and now I compose orchestral music. In more recent years my love for the piano has returned and I'm currently age 50 and studying Chopin on my own. I regret stopping childhood piano lessons, but enjoy learning and video performing. I'm having a great time, yet some of my (musician) friends tend to view me as an elitist.
"elitist" is just another word tool of the crowd with no self-awareness, accusing others of what they're doing. It's Leftism in a nut shell, and they even have a handbook [ "Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky] explaining the technique in detail, so those who want to do it more consciously & deliberately can do it even better.
I come from a musical background through my father and his mom or my grandmother who were both classically trained pianists and my grandmother was a high school music teacher as well. But because she lived in another country and my father passed away when I was young, I only got an introduction of playing music through him and since then I've been self-taught knowing enough to get by. As I've gotten older I would ask my mom stories about things my dad said or did and something that shocked me was she said when my dad was growing up with my grandmother that she only taught him classical music. He was more interested in jazz but if she heard him playing it or talking about it she would literally disrupt his playing and scold him as a child. It was so crazy that he had to wait until he was an adult and moved out to be able to study jazz, buy albums from artists like Oscar Peterson or Duke Ellington and join sessions with other jazz musicians at clubs. Now if that sort of thing can happen between flesh and blood like a mother and son, I can easily imagine this elitism happening to strangers in that same environment that brainwashed my grandmother.
This is a very good video. I like your way of presenting.
This is such a great video, and i absolutely agree with many of your points.... The music industry is terrible, and well.. I think the same can be said in not just classical but in other sectors too. I moved on from classical to the electronic sector, which unfortunately does bear some similarities but there is one thing that I hope that the classical industry takes from us, dance music artists. We accept creativity, and accept trying to be yourself, and we even got a saying PLUR (Peace, Love, Unity, Respect)... Respect for each other, the art and the overall craft.
I too also grew up, and always got comments of 'i was not good enough' or ' i didn't practice enough' or comments 'oh I will feel guilty and depressed later in life for me not practicing' and the line specifically in this video 'classical music first/musican first, people second'.... and it has lead me down to a near permanent burnout of playing classical music or just even wanting to listen to a classic music performance....
Its a good thing, I decided to turn down going to music school in a conservatory because when I was younger, I was very close to going to a conservatory school until I was talked out of it...
These days, I take what i've learned from classical music, try to push and compose melodies that I find so much joy in being able to play my own style, and my own sound to audiences...
And I just hope one day, the classical industry will catch onto this and well... maybe this burnout will end one day...
Excellent video, I'm in my first year of conservatoire, and as a newcomer to the industry, finding your channel has been like discovering a gold mine. Thank you for your thoughtful and incisive videos!
You have no idea how refreshing it was to see your video!! I’m an aspiring classical musician and I have really struggled with finding a clear and helpful voice on the subject of toxicity in classical music. I find the subject heavily pervaded by outsiders that don’t understand the struggles of trying to grow with new ideas and “unconventional” takes in traditional works and subjects as a classical musician. And finally hearing the viewpoint of someone who actually has experience in the industry has made my year!
I'm so glad!! Man, it's real too. People are so, so afraid to say anything at all critical when they're at the will of the industry. I don't blame them at all, I was one of them! But now that I don't have to worry about losing a reputation, I'm just so mad on behalf of my younger self. I hope by talking about it, things can start to get better!
Thanks for the video. I really enjoy your videos and the topics you bring up.
Only a couple of quick thoughts that this triggers in my mind about elitism... I know it seems to be in vogue to blame the church for this or that. But another perspective is that the fostering of music in "early times" by the church actually helped to advance it. J.S.Bach was born out of this environment. So good has come of it. As indicated in the video, it also became wealthy patrons who helped advance the musical art.
Regarding the elitism itself and what it's rooted in... part of it is the nature of the music itself. Elitism occurs in other musical genres besides classical music. I know some fans of the Phish rock band. There's actually a subgroup of those fans who consider themselves true fans that are the ones who really understand the music, and they refer to the other fans as "posers" because, in their opinions, the posers only like the music superficially.
I think, to some degree, because of the depth of the art in classical music, you can't remove the fact that there's going to be some esoteric aspect of it that is appreciated by, or at least interesting to, a subset of people. That in and of itself is going to lend to some elitism due to human nature. But the whole formal presentation I think enhances this effect. You'll find more causal attendees at the outdoor concert facilities than you do in the large, opulent concert halls. Maybe more classical concerts should be presented in less formal settings? And perhaps the performers should be allowed to wear comfortable clothing like blue jeans, etc? That might make it more approachable. Even though the current concert hall may allow anyone to attend who buys a ticket, the environment isn't "welcoming" for everyone. I don't think this is the fault of the building. I've been to the concert hall in London and observed a lot more casually clothed people than I do in the US. Making the experience more broadly inviting would help mitigate the elitism.
Everyone is "elitist" in their own way. The style and subject of what they call "elitist" is the only difference between their 'elitism' and the other's 'elitism'. This generation unfortunately was programmed to see anything they aren't fully jiving with as an affront to their own personal "dignity" and identity, so it's not going to matter what you or anyone else does - if they are not the center of whatever it is, or being honored for whatever they're doing or critiquing, then it offends them and must be elitist, racist, _phobic, or any of the other Bourgeoisie snooties of exclusionary or refined society.
So anything that requires training, or doing something differently from how they want to do it, is going to be seen as "elitist", because what else can it be? You see, everyone should be "individuals" as long as they include them and anything they want to add or replace your individualism with, so it includes, accommodates and honors them at their present level of understanding and skill. There is no room for "mastering" something anymore, because it would mean temporarily not being 'good' enough, which they equate with moral rejection and thus personal oppression, due only to bigotry.
It's Marx's gift to modern society.
@@jameseverett4976This is a BS take and This generation does acknowledge some of Marx’s points, but that’s more so from the context of acknowledging how things are, historically and even now, modernity, not necessarily creating a perception of it. With this said, the overall view is that things should be inclusive, it’s not argued that certain folx should be the centre of anything, the fact that you make that claim says you aren’t really listening to what’s being said. Considering White folx pushed non-White Folx to view “Classical” or any European music that’s on academic level as superior to their own cultural musical tastes. So, due to this, it makes little sense that there wouldn’t be acknowledgement of folx of colour, who were taught the elitist notions. Why program folx to see Classical as superior, train folx accordingly, then not acknowledge their contributions and value in the community? This is why folx will call things racist at times, because how a lot of folx were introduced to Classical was rooted in racism notions or views, and a lot of folx of colour believe those notions, so, of course folx want to be included in the recognition of great artistry. NOT THE CENTRE OF IT. But let’s be real, Marx didn’t invent these terms nor the reality, he simply organised the information in a way that folx could understand it along with his own weird views.
As to why certain things are called elitist lies with the folx who choke the art for the purpose of overly worshiping tradition at the expense of letting the art breathe and flow naturally through folx which is important to mastery. The point is, most modern musicians don’t mind studying the tradition, as long as we aren’t expected to be pigeonholed in it to the point of not being able to think outside of box, which unfortunately elitists have difficulty recognising what’s “good” enough because they aren’t able to appreciate much that doesn’t centre purist tradition quite the way they fell in love with the art form. So, they reject valid interpretations from artists with respect for tradition but have newer thinking. This what many folx mean we say “Elitist”. It’s not a rejection of constructive criticism, but a frustration with certain folx who think autism is the only right way to experience Classical as an Art form, failing to recognise that many of the greats deviated from purism which is largely what made them the legends we know today.
Many folx today aren’t against mastering anything, in fact, the level of virtuosity and passion for Classical and various forms of music is pretty high right now. I’m seeing with the Jazz community, Progressive Metal, etc…but that many folx aren’t a fan of “mastery” without deep enough connections to make it one’s own and add to the canon/standards uniquely as the earlier greats have. I would argue, this is the problem modern Jazz is having now. So, many of the Millennials(My generation) and Zoomers, get into Jazz but unfortunately just stick to tradition, we don’t innovate much, and to be fair, the Jazz purists have done their part in shutting that down, but still, it has dried up Jazz to the point that a lot of folx are acknowledging most Jazz players today don’t sound interesting, they are essentially copying the greats or their favourite era of Jazz, few are doing anything that pushes the boundaries. If the Classical community doesn’t check this issue soon, the same will happen with Classical, and this is why we need to call out the elitism. This is where elitism hurts art. This frustration has been critiqued about various forms of music that either are or have become steeped in academia for over a century. I question that it has anything to do with Marx, but a valid observation that we’ve done little to fix or deal with for so long, we now have to address it.
I think much of what you said she had already acknowledged, such as the fact there is elitism in many groups of people. I think her point is since she’s closely tied to Classical, she’s addressing it from that context of critiquing the community she knows or loves.
Curious, I grew up in Cuba, my family liked classical music and took me to concerts, ballets, operas, zarzuelas, all artists been paid by the government. It was not a massive event but the Grand Theatre Lorca In Havana will fill out, as will other theaters and later on Churches turn into concert halls in Havana. Not everybody has the sensitivity and exposure necessary to like this music. Training musicians to be able to perform this music is' not cheap either, it takes money from the government or from the person to do this. The racial disparities were there as well, no matter how much the government tried to help.
I do all of the stuff you said in the video (the indoctrination part more specifically) out of pure pleasure and don't see a problem with it. I practice 6-8 hours every day (or almost) and I don't feel like I am missing my life, mainly because I only talk to 2-3 people I know, mainly because I am very selective of whom I talk to. I go to recitals at least 2-3 times per month (I hate "clubs anyways), and I listen to classical music all the time (cuz I am not really into other genres), and this was out of my free will, not indoctrination, not because I was forced or other stuff like that (I am the only musician in my family). However, I agree with the part that it is difficult to make it unless you are from a rich background and/or be from a musical family, not to mention the connections you need to have (and most competitions in my country are rigged in favour of those people with those backgrounds I mentioned, just because of relations, and not by their playing overall. This is what I hate the most about this industry).
Coming from a poor/working-class background, I very definitely felt the touch of this elitism. I was already coming into music from a rough upbringing, so I literally did not know any better and could not recognize what wrongs were done to me: I had no identity AT ALL beyond my voice. Nothing. I didn't even know that was bad until I got into therapy! And even with "A Good Voice," my disadvantaged background was something I learned to shut up about real fast: teachers and visiting professionals were all smiles when they'd heard me sing, but if I mentioned being a scholarship student, within minutes I was invisible. Looking at it now, I want to smack them, and my younger self (just a little). I was doing that well, on NO teaching: I had a real effing talent. If I'd been privileged and gotten music lessons from a young age instead of STARTING at 17? How much better might I have been, how much more might I have learned? It infuriates me to think about the things I personally lost bc of my treatment in school. My second experience was FAR better, more grounded and more caring, but by then so was I.
For myself, the fix is going back - even though I'm almost fifty, even though I'm not going to get lessons (I sure can't afford them now any more than I could then). But I do know how to practice. I remember the things I learned then, on top of all I've learned since. Will I be singing to please no ears but my own? THAT IS FINE THANK YOU. I am taking back my joy in music, and never letting anyone's money take it away from me again.
There are a number of points where you use the term "eurocentric" when I think you really just mean "European" - there is an implied criticism with the term "eurocentric" which I'm not sure is relevant or even intentional every time you use it. I can see why from an American perspective you could begin to use the words interchangeably - but when you are speaking in a historical context of historical trends within Europe in e.g. the eighteenth century, I'm not sure it's exactly what you meant. (Just something to consider for future videos!)
Great essay. A lot of this toxicity and elitism is found in Indian classical music as well. I think that any art form that requires years of study beginning in childhood leads to a particular insular worldview. Also, as you point out, the intense relationship and dependence on the teacher (this is especially true in indian music which depends on face to face learning and in which notation is much less prominent than in Western music). Then there is the issue of the lack of free music education in schools (especially in the US) which of course limits who is able to participate. These are real issues. At the same time, there is something to be said for trying to preserve "high art". We don't want to abandon all the standards and etiquettes of classical music.
Very powerful video🍃🥀
That was fascinating and a great subject for exploration.
I am new to enjoying classical music. I have spent most of my life enjoying rock, R&B, hard rock (metalheads), alternative, etc. As a person of color i understand the elitism issues with classical music and opera. My father had a collection of classical music he occasionally listened to after dinner in the evenings. So it is part of my family upbringing. For me this is just an exploration of a genre. I was fortunate to live down the street from my elementary school music teacher and i was fortunate to go to an elementary school that had a music teacher. She told us stories about Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, etc. I also sang in the school's choir. So i had an introduction to classical music. But i don't know the vernacular or terminology of classical music. I am not necessarily trying to be a part of the classical music community. I am just hoping to listen to the music live. In LA the school system does provide instruments to the students if they want to learn how to play an instrument which is a great model. But thanks for providing us with a warning.
I think it is worth noting that different demographics of people come from cultures that put less importance on "high art" like classical music. Or such, in the case of African Americans, often harbor a strong dislike for things like classical music, because taking part in it would be seen as "Acting white." This cultural dictate/dislike for things that are viewed as stuffy, privileged, or otherwise distasteful, probably has more to do with the lack of ethnic diversity in orchestra than any inherent toxicity or racism within the realms of classical music itself. After all, Asian Americans, and Asian culture at large, has a profound respect and appreciation for high arts, which is why they both take part, and greatly excel in them. So I have to wonder if it is exclusionary, or if the various cultural perspective of different groups doesn't play a larger part in forming the demographics of the classical music industry - if you will.
This lady talking is just as ‘elite’ as the elitist she’s criticizing. How in the hell does Trump supporters come to mind when talking about the gate keepers of CLASSICAL music?!? The tds is strong with her.
It’s worth noting that African Americans may feel that European and Western cultures have historically undervalued their artistic contributions, such as Jazz. Since its inception, Jazz has often been labeled as “less sophisticated,” “barbaric,” or “immoral” by Western cultural standards. This negative perception and cultural bias might explain, in part, the reaction you mentioned, as it could be a response to the early 20th-century rejection of Jazz. Prominent figures like composer Arnold Schoenberg believed classical music had exhausted its tonal possibilities, advocating for atonality as the future of music. Similarly, philosopher and musicologist Theodor W. Adorno wrote extensively on atonal music and famously looked down on genres like Jazz, considering atonal classical music to be superior. Essentially, Western culture seems to imply: “You are welcome to participate in the ‘high arts,’ but only if you acknowledge the distinction between ‘high art’ and popular or secular music.” To that, one might respond: “I think I’ll stay where I am, thanks.”
Hi there, interesting opinion. Like this video, I encourage you to interrogate where your definition of 'high art' comes from and what that looks like. Your definition sounds very concrete and locked in. Aliens from Mars might think nothing on Earth constitutes 'high art' by their definition of it - I'd laugh hard if that day ever comes. If your definition of high art is eurocentric (high class white people who make up all the standards and tell everyone what and who is and isn't worthy) then its a very limited lens to look at other cultures and what moves and motivates them - actually, it's a useless lens. It means, you'll be missing what fantastic magical dreamlike and transcendent art comes from all sorts of people around the world - from working class rural white people to communities in Africa or Asia! Also, a eurocentric lens limits where we think art can happens, it encourages people to sequester the arts in dark high-priced highfalutin auditoriums, demands that people approach it in restrictive ways, bound by dress code, behavior, even demands a certain language when talking about it. This lens tells us when and where art is possible. Art doesn't happen solely in the conservatory, many cultures on earth accept and encourage art to happen at home around the kitchen table or on the street - it's just part of life and it's for everyone. If you feel a culture places less importance on 'high art' perhaps reverse the thought - seems like the custodians of high art, those who maintain the concrete and very narrow definitions, place little importance on the value of [fill in blank] anyone who doesn't resemble them or strive to be them.
@@georgiaade8426 Well said
@@LavshBeatsTMlavishbeats I agree, very well said indeed.
There is a very interesting study on these topics by Anna Bull: Class, Control and Classical Music. She conducted interviews with young people engaged in different classical youth ensembles in the UK and analysed her findings with a specific focus on class dynamics. She concludes that exclusionary strategies are baked into the aesthetics of classical music. To counter that, she pleads for a discourse that is open to questioning such aesthetic ideals.
Have played and enjoyed playing classical music for most of my life. Albeit in a non professional setting because let's be real there's only so many seats in a state funded ensemble and even less dollars to go round and hours to practice. I like many others jump at the chance to play in a public setting even if the pay to time spent rehearsing doesnt add up. I am neither indoctrinated or brain washed as to not understand the value of other forms of music. I have been taught and had the pleasure of playing with some really outstanding musicians who have held chairs in large symphonies, taught at prestigious universities. Not once have i experienced any exclusionism or felt like an interloper. I guess what im trying to say is all types of music are for all people. I'm not sure where this agenda comes from. From where im sitting companies like Fever have been making strides in making classical music and dance more accessible. You can go experience Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Dvorak, Chopin, Vivaldi and many more without the formal attire. Many if these events are actually cheaper making them more accessible than the big concerts performed by contemporary rock and pop musicians. Sincerely Trumpet musician for 23 years and active participant in non for profit community bands for just as long.
But you are classical musician?
@@FilipeMRICCarneiro I would say yes. I play in traditional English brass bands on cornet.
Conservatism vs. progressivism have always been the two forces shaping music. You can find this same argument happening back in 19th century Germany with the Wagner and the conservatives battling Brahms and the progressives. I'm sure if you go back another hundred years you'll find people making the same argument in Bach's time, you'll find people arguing for and against the transition to the formal mode of music notation system we use today.
It's tempting to always side with the progressive camp, but the issue really isn't that simple. You need people pushing the boundaries, but you also need people judging these propositions against the classics. That's how you really grow the music tradition in a thoughtful, organized way. You can't accept just ANYTHING.
But just like everything, you need the proper balance. Yin-yang. It sounds like the classical community is leaning too far in the conservative direction these days. We need to nudge it in the other direction, but not TOO hard.
@paddiowilson It’s funny you say ‘it’s easy to always side with the progressive camp’ but then cite Brahms as progressive and Wagner as conservative… when it was really the opposite? Like don’t get me wrong, Brahms is an amazing and innovative composer, but he was very much wanting to be a continuation of the tradition, whereas Wagner was more explicitly starting something new.
Sorry for the tangent, but actually what Wagner did; developing a radically new and individual vision for the art form, putting more focus on connecting with his audience through compelling narratives (and folklore references etc), and becoming one of THE most culturally influential people of the late 19th Century; should be contemplated by the modern industry. How could he be so culturally relevant at the time?
Don’t get me wrong, I know there are HUGE issues with Wagners legacy, especially his antisemitism and the later whole-hearted fanboying by a certain Adolf, and his ginormous ego feeding into the ‘great men’ view of history (and associated elitism). But, you cannot deny his artistic innovation and break from tradition, musical influence, and widespread popularity.
Anyway what I’m meaning to say is that I think musical progressivism vs conservatism, while relevant, isn’t really the most useful terms to frame the current crisis in the industry.
Classical music’s ability to innovate has been one of its strengths, but the dynamic has definitely changed over the last 100 years. Parts of the industry are increasingly fragmented- ie there’s not really any unifying musical movement for music being composed now, ie. less crossover between ‘new music’ and mainstream classical scenes, and the industry as a whole is more insulated. It reduces the ability of someone to redefine the whole genre in the way that for example Marchaut, Monteverdi, Haydn, Beethoven, (and yes) Wagner, Debussy, Stravinsky or even Boulez did (among many others at these stylistic transition points). Or like Miles Davis, the Beatles, or Biggie smalls to take examples from other genres.
All kinds of ‘musically progressive’ circles of classical music definitely exist, it’s just that they have very small reach even compared to orchestras and institutions which are already insular. I don’t think it’s lack of exploration that is necessarily the problem.
I think it’s more a need to prioritise the importance of connecting to audiences and engaging them in the ways they find meaningful, ie. being receptive instead of dictating the ways people ‘should’ interact with the music, and not just existing to appease the donors who want to ‘preserve’ their (incomplete ideas of) traditions. Yes art for arts sake is fine, but isn’t the point of it to connect to people?
There is so much emotionally powerful music in this European-descended style of music composed up to the present day, and I think the industry is killing itself by not being accessible to newcomers, and preventing more people from enjoying the artistic merit it has to offer. To to me it’s a more of a question of how can we keep it a living, breathing tradition, and find a societally relevant role within our culture.
Maybe when classical musicians can realise ‘we live in a society’, we might be able to make some progress.
Anyway, thank you to the 2 people who will read this long rant.
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS
Suzuki teacher here. I 100% agree with everything in this video. However, I have to push back on the suzuki quote as it’s taken out of context. He was actually advocating for self care. The idea is that if you’re not feeling well ( can’t eat) you can skip practice that day. Whereas traditional methods encourage practice while I’ll including going to rehearsal, performing any way..that “show must go on mentality”. Also, many suzuki teachers work actively to promote healthy musicianship and there is a huge push for more diversity in the repertoire. We also don’t advocate children to practice alone, group study is a large focus as is building a studio community over competition. We educate the whole child-which was Dr. Suzuki’s focus. Character first, ability second. He was more interested in developing character than professional musicians. Because there is the emphasis to learn by ear in the beginning improv it’s actually easier for Suzuki students. Many Suzuki students also now offer scholarships and sliding scale tuition! We also work with the ability of the child in front of us and can actually tailor more easily the games we play to their interests. In fact, most young suzuki students learn solely through playing games! I’ve never heard any fellow Suzuki teachers scream at students. Last, the suzuki association of Americas denounced racism as an organization following the murder of George Floyd. I think Suzuki is actually the answer to abusive classical music. 😊
That's nonsense. You can get character without knowing how to play a single note on a recorder. Commercial music schools are just that: COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISES.
@@lepidoptera9337 I never said that learning music was the only way to develop character. There are multiple ways of doing that, music is just one of them. Suzuki method though has differing priorities than traditional lessons that’s my point. I also don’t know what recorder has to do with anything I said. 🤷🏻♀️ I’m sorry you’ve had terrible experiences in music education but I know most teachers don’t earn a living teaching music so they do it because they love to do it and want to be of service. I hope you find peace- you come off as angry.
@@glendasensei Please stop bullshitting. Music is a skill. That's all it is. Does it cost money to teach a skill? Yes. We are spending $17,000 per year per K-12 student to teach basic reading, writing, math, science and a few other things that come in handy in a Western culture. We leave music to private industry because it's not an important skill and few people will ever use it even after they learn some of it.
I have a terrible experience with music education? My Dad was a music teacher for over 20 years. He was one of the few teachers that students in his school were standing in line for. You are not exercising very good judgment for all the "character" that you are "teaching". That's the sign of a person who is full of him/herself. ;-)
@@lepidoptera9337 Chill.
Speaking of learning a skill . . .
Reading for comprehension is a skill you need to learn. Good luck in pursuing that endeavor.
@@rayphenicie7344 Dude, the reason I called bullshit on your bullshit is because I read your bullshit. All you were really doing is to place an advertisement, anyway. You are so obvious. ;-)
One of the reasons why classical music is the preserve of the privileged white population is that music is not taught in state schools. At least where I come from.Ireland.
I was shocked to the core at the MeToo revelations from and about famous opera professionals. This level of talent is so rare that it should not be wasted. I am also furious at the degradation of public schools in the US who do not teach appreciation of this music to the degree that the imbalance of revenues has gotten worse than one would imagine. Having said that...
...I am a very aggressive "shusher" toward people whose conversations and cell phone activity don't stop when the conductor raises the baton. This is not the 18th century when spoken theatre and opera had very little competition as public entertainment compared to today. We are now in huge opera houses that seat more than a thousand people at a time whose noise would drown everything out if they all conversed, played cards, or did anything else that happened in Mozart's time. It's rude to ruin other people's music/theatre experience with ticket prices being what they are now.
i thought i was crazy. im a jazz person and ive spent the past 3 semesters as a music major at a very classical oriented school (not necessarily by choice, though next year ill finally be transferring to a school thats a bit more jazz oriented) and ive always gotten this unwelcoming vibe from people here. there always seems to be some kind of rumor going around about how someones "not even that good" or backhanded sympathy like "i feel so bad for (insert person) in my studio". its just weird!
After watching parts of the 2024 Olympics, you are left to wonder how bad the same trends are in rhe athletic industrial complex. Thank God for Simon Biles who has found back agains this and showed gymnasts don't have to be 13-year-old waifs to compete at that level and deal with the (hopefully rare) sexual predations of some coaches.
You are musician?
That lesson is much more simple: We can NEVER leave one adult alone with a child. EVER. That, unfortunately, includes family.
@ non-white classical music (performers): have a look at Vietnam. They are actually not bad. But one thing you should not forget: You cannot isolate the music from its background. Even white new-world performers sound slightly different than European performers, regardless whether they have Anglo or Latin roots.
Here in Canada, some of the musicians from Asia perform at tgehe highest levels. I don't think you can always deduce the background of a musician from how they play? That sounds like a suspicious claim. I think it's different if you discuss composition.
@@gejostyea I don’t understand his comment either. Sounds bazaar to me.
This channel is just raw truth on a stick!!👍
This video was breath of fresh air; Unfortunately, it happens way too often that people are looked down upon for not having the “cookie cutter” classical music background. Hence one of the reasons why I decided to write my article from The Flute Examiner that talks about my journey as a flutist on the autism spectrum (If you’re interested, it’s called Removing the Mask: A Flutist’s Journey on the Spectrum
I get something else: I like to think of myself as a musician and composer, but, not having any piece of paper that certifies this and not being part of "the community", there is no way any of my music can be performed or listened to. No matter how much the "ignoramuses" say they like what I write, not a single "serious" musician will touch any of my stuff with the end a barge-pole, because, as I am not a member of the club already, I probably do not deserve to be let in anyway. "No: I do not need to listen to your music! I know already it cannot possibly be good!"
You are so right. That is precisely how the hegemony works. It really is a complete joke the way they defensively scoff at anyone who is outside of the institutions. I have a master's from the Paris Conservatory and decided to quit that whole community to make music independently because of how miserable it made me and now guess what? Even though I'm way happier with the music I'm writing now and get a much better response from a broader public, the people I knew from the conservatories wouldn't even acknowledge its existence because it isn't linked to their institutions. Learn how to make electronic music, that way you will be able to make exactly the music that you want and you won't need to join their sick club :)
I decided, definitively, not to go into classical music pretty early on. Despite that, I joined a national youth orchestra. The bullying, passive-aggresiveness, competitiveness, putting-others-down, name-dropping, elitist environment was like a high school times a hundred. As someone who was there as an amateur with no professional ambitions, I was seriously looked down upon. Some of these young musicians (around 14-20) already had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol or self-harm, and who can blame them, in an environment where whether someone was worth the chair they sat on was one of the most popular conversation topics...
...so I went into academia. I must be a masochist.
I would like to disagree, only coming from my experience. From my specific expereince of being in an orchestra, yes, some kids were forced and abused to do violin and stuff, but everybody, even my conductors, loved all kinds of music, and never thought of classical music as being the highest. I am actually a metalhead, and I love classical music as being metal's supportive grandad. Sure, im not saying nobodys snobbish, but i feel like the idea of classical music being the "establishment" is most likely just artificial just because of our connotation to the delicateness and precision that style must have, and how it relates to old aristocracy. But music styles for different peoples change.
I remember when I first discovered this trove of TH-cam opera recordings about 2012-13. Suddenly I could listen to (and compare) voices, technique, recordings going back more than a hundred years. Initially it was just tenors, then I remembered Mom's faves Deanna Durbin and Eileen Farrell and I rediscovered them. Callas, and Anna Moffo was a cautionary tale. But the comments... Some astonished me with the spite and venom. Yes, there is elitism everywhere. However it is sharper, more refined, more than toxic, outright poisonous in the opera world.
Well, as usual this screed ignores Asians and Asian Americans, who I dare say are far over represented in music schools in this country, and would be in orchestras too if they didn’t decide to become doctors instead. I am Asian American myself, btw. My dad was a very good musician who played in the local symphony as a college student but then became a doctor. His brother, however, became a jazz and pop musician and played in nightclubs.
I get what you mean about classical music being seen as elitist, but I think it has more to do with people who don’t enjoy classical music using that as an excuse for not going to concerts. Most of them have never been to a concert past maybe age 12, remembering only that they got “dragged” to a concert by their parents after being forced to dress their Sunday best. They don’t realize that that isn’t really necessary any more.
So I reject the elitist charge. Sometimes you just close your mind to certain kinds of music. I certainly barely take notice of modern pop music. It’s so fake,,with all the autotune and “producing” that takes place now. But I think it’s sad when people can’t bring themselves to go to the occasional orchestra concert or piano recital to hear works that, after hundreds of years and thousands of performances, still continue to fascinate and challenge the musicians who perform it and dedicate their lives to it. The quality of musician in a decent regional orchestra is very high these days. It might benefit people if they learn to appreciate that as is, rather than thinking it would be “better” if it was dressed up like a Taylor Swift production.
Insecurity differences between sopranos and mezzo-sopranos:
An insecure soprano pushes their own insecurity unto other singers, especially those who are newer to the “cult”, while an insecure mezzo just doesn’t sing. A soprano with lots of self esteem is usually really sweet and you would often misinterpret them as a mezzo 😂
As a classical singer, studying musicology, I can confirm. I was first a percussionist, then a young chorus girl, then 15 years old me, started taking voice lessons. First, I wanted to do musical theatre, then I wanted to be more of a pop singer, but then I started singing more classical and I felt this was my home. Then I came to my first professional operetta role and I became a victim of elite-taught sopranos. NowI miss the musical theatre 😂
Rich demean modern music, the poor demonize the rich music. Both may have truths and usage of attacks to express frustrations they have that may stem from insecurity. Anyone can be spoiled and close minded, pride is universal and rewarding, humility is hard to earn but provides deep inner peace
@Cait this was an AMAZING video. Thank you so much! I have seen a bit of the elitist and ab-censored relationship between teacher and student in classical music myself -- from being yelled at continuously in violin class (and me crying), to hearing about how composers need to have an elite understanding of scores (old classical and contemporary music). I never went to conservatory at the college level (I did a pre-college music program in high school) and it was such a f*cking pressure cooker. I opted to study composition because 1) I liked making music I wanted to hear, and 2) I could kinda avoid the pressures of being a music performer. But even in the composition world, there's elitism. I felt like I couldn't bring my musical background of rock music (from listening to my dad's tapes when I was little) or my Indian music background. Composition to me isn't about following rules, it's about understanding SOUND, and THEMES, and creating music you personally like -- not trying to follow elite composers just because you have to, or because it's the "in thing" for contemporary classical music. I felt pressured to poop out 8-minute pieces every couple of weeks for my teacher/composers-recital -- you know how hard it is to compose a fully original 8-minute piece??
Anyway, loved this video, and the previous video you did on classical music dying -- it hits a lot of themes in this one. Thanks so much!!
I’m so sorry you had to experience that. 🙏 It shouldn’t be that way, and I totally agree. I hope whatever path you decide to follow brings you health and happiness (and music)! 🤍 (also holy moly yes, I had a composition friend or two and I’ll tell ya, I did not envy them 😅)
A lot of what you're saying is applicable to most of if not all music
I'm a Mexican learning classical guitar. But my background is heavy metal. Believe me blaming "the privileged" or the elitist isn't helping. A lot of musicians are terribly insecure and suffer from imposter syndrome. Regardless of musical background. We're out of touch with non musical people and don't realize that we do have the freedom to do as we please.
Classical music isn't unique to these criticisms. It's just been doing it longest.
That's really interesting! I have very little experience in any genres outside classical music, but I"m sad to hear this is prevalent everywhere. I wonder what it is about music that creates these kinds of "us vs them" mentalities. You'd think it'd bring us all together under the umbrella of something we love!
@@ScoresUnstitched I believe it's the edgy and harmful need for competitive advantage in all areas of human endeavor that keeps the toxicity flowing. It's like students are taught to loathe coming in at the silver and bronze level in everything and keep their eyes on the gold. Our education system (I'm blaming families more than the classroom environment) teaches students to only look at scholarly endeavors as to how they will help their future careers and not for the joy of the endeavor itself. In other words, cultural values have to change to where people value scholarly endeavors of all kinds and equally for the pursuit itself and not only how it looks in a cover letter or CV. 🥰
I hate how people judge singers these days. As someone just getting into it, it is scary to watch performances on youtube which sound amazing since the people singing are trained professionals, only to read comments beneath that state how terrible singer xy is and how much better some dead singer has been. It is highly disturbing to me and kinda makes me scared getting into it, since somehow you will never get good enough? Which is bizzare because i changed from violin to singing because I thought it was more individual and free, well whoops
I think contemporary musicians like Taylor swift and many flaunting rap songs, are really shallow and pointless to hear. I get enfureated by the thought of them being the leaders of the music industry. I tried classical, but I get confused as I feel overwhelmed by unusual melodies to which I not know what to think of feel of. However, I found movie musical scores, the blend of visual and audio storytelling just gets you that cathartic high these two other media's seldom accomplish. I listen to some classic and modern "mainly phonk surprisingly" because both feel like there is a sincere effort and wound place in them, whilst most of the modern music feel like vocalized defense mechanisms rather than introspective vulnerable emotions. I think shallowness of thought can infect any groups and I think both classical and modern are no exception. I also think that Modern music against classical, is a hinderance to the complexity and effort classical music requires. I see many modern listeners refuse and have an extreme reaction against old music, almost if they;'re defending a wound I was prodding. The failure of processing wounds and trauma to create productive harmony is what I think the problem is with most things these days.
Most music genre are toxic and arrogant to other music genre. You find elitism in any kind of music.
That's what I wish she would address-or if you don't in fact find elitism anywhere else (ha ha, but I know you do), please explain why. She didn't do this and that's why I mark her video an epic fail.
You find elitism in any human endeavor. Art, games, literature, cars and so on. There's even beer snobs.
@@jgrab1"...her video an epic fail." Hardly. Haven't you just proved her point?
Absolutely. People get crazy
@@jgrab1She did address it, she addressed in the beginning. Y’all really need to listen not with your feelings but with logic. She clearly stated that there are folx who made this point and she understood where they were coming from. However, she’s is choosing to focus on this Classical because most folx using this argument, are largely doing so as a form of deflection, instead of acknowledging that it is needs to be addressed for those who are in the Classical community. In other words, it’s personal to her since she recently left the Classical community for this reason, so, she addressing it as someone who specialises in the art form, and has experienced this toxicity.
If your purpose is self-actualisation then being an orchestral player isn't for you. As a soloist or conductor you might stand a better chance but there is only so much creativity you can do before Tchaikovsky's Violin concerto stops being that.
this makes me appreciative of my city. our classical music scene is progressive.
True. It seems they think they are better than other musicians and on top of that, classical music fans are ageist.
I knew a guy who was a “recording engineer” that refused to record anyone who used distortion or other “unnatural effects”. He was a blues elitist and died alone.
Well, actually gatekeeping and toxicity happened in many cultures. As a Javanese who studied Gamelan in my early years (like 7 to 12 y.o), my voice was insulted for too deep for being sinden / traditional Javanese singer. I read about Japanese music too, I have this elitism. Although many Western people praise of how we Javanese equality on music especially Gamelan, few of the Western know how elitist too the Gamelan.
You kind of overlooked the second factor about Classical music , you have to be incredibly rich to be allowed to start in Orchestral music , my grade, Jr high and high school did not support Orchestra , only band . I have wanted to play cello when I was young . Band was not for me I hated my tuba , alto sax years . I started playing bass guitar since gradeschool. My professional electric basses ( RIC 4003 , Fender Ultra Jazz bass , G&L 2000) all cost less then a Jr High / HS intermediate cello. I have a incredible resentment of Viol instruments , even as a adult the incredible cost of the instruments and lessons are beyond my ability to pay . And IM USED TO PROFESSIONAL Instruments. 😮
Classical music's exclusivity will eventually be its undoing and I won't mourn for it😊
You are musician?
@@FilipeMRICCarneiro Yes but not classical
As Tantacrul points out in this video, the classical music field does not own the shop on snobbery and exclusivity. It's found everywhere in the pursuit of about 94 other musical genres. Theater too. It's a human pursuit.
th-cam.com/video/azpxUnIgsts/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Tantacrul
It's incredibly difficult to be successful in the classical music world. It's competitive to the max, and like those who wish to play on a professional sports team, the vast majority of musicians aspiring to earn a seat in a major symphony orchestra or opera house will fail. Nearly all of the successful ones, including composers whose music gets played, were prodigies. This is one of those cold hard facts that's not talked enough about, especially by teachers, who too often push their students to "follow their dream" or perpetuate the lie that you can overcome mediocre talent with sheer hard work. It's like saying you can become the center of a professional basketball team if you're five-foot-two simply by working harder than the seven-foot guy. Too many people competing for an infuriatingly small number of spots is the root of some of the toxicity. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing. If universities and teachers were honest with their students, it might help alleviate the numbers of frustrated and bitter musicians they send out into the world.
Hi Cait, we'd love to have you as a guest on the Jazz for Peace podcast with host Rick DellaRatta if you would be interested?
Apparently I missed the open audition for the symphony band in college by one person. I was disappointed at the time by the the band director was mad abusive so I dodged a bullet with that one.
I wonder if this is more pronounced in the USA than Europe or other places
This type of toxicity is not unique to classical musicians. Mathematics is another. There was an old professor at my graduate school who had a favorite phrase -- "every waking moment", meaning you should spend every waking moment of your life studying or thinking about mathematics. While most of us didn't go to that extreme, the expectation was definitely that math should be your absolute #1 priority in life, at least until you finish your degree. And for anyone who wants to "make it" as a professional research mathematician (as opposed to teaching math at a community college like myself), you can expect years of strenuous work with little job security (think post-docs), constant pressure from mentors/advisors, and high competition for research grants and tenured positions.
Chess is another. Most grandmasters begin seriously studying and playing the game about age 5-7 years old. Young children spend hours each day memorizing openings, practicing tactics, analyzing their games under supervision of GM mentors. Instead of goofing around like most teenagers, you'll commit to trying to earn norms at highly competitive tournaments, and if you live in the US you'll have to travel to Europe often. If you don't have your GM title by age 18, you're almost certainly out of the running to play at the super-GM level, so you'll be relegated to making poverty level wages living off of giving chess lessons and maybe starting a Twitch stream.
The good news is -- if you can find a way to make a stable living that doesn't depend on being the top 0.001% of your field, then you can actually enjoy it. I was a music minor in college, and while I'm not a professional musician, I enjoy accompanying choirs, singing classical music, and playing in a handbell ensemble. I make a small amount of money as a church musician and give piano lessons. I'm also constantly listening to new music (spending several months on a new/different composer, or style). While I don't think I'll ever write another research paper in math, I still enjoy working on problems and picking up a book to learn a bit more about some branch of math I never had time to pursue in grad school. And I'm just an amateur chess player, but I enjoy playing and improving my game.
Bottom line -- a passion shouldn't feel like a chore, and if it does, there's probably some toxicity going on somewhere.
god, you make engineering sound relaxing by comparison 0-0
Hahaha, I'm sure it has its own difficulties! But yeah, I work for a normal corporate 9-5 org now and I can't believe how much people are allowed to get away with. Like, being forgiving of mistakes and allowing people to take time off? Nahhh, what's that?
But..Kate...shouldnt we all strive to be upper class as far as aesthetics goes?
"The Classical Music Industry Has a Toxicity Problem". There, fixed it for you.
Yeah, important difference...
The music itself is just normal stuff, some people are just a bit crazy about it.
As a kid started piano lesson in a more or less classical setting.
Im now an adult, picked up the guitar some 15 odd years ago and studying jazz with a teacher. I cannot begin to explain how fucked up you guys have teaching set up. There IS a way to enjoy music actually get good at it and even learn to improvise and transcribe, and its not higher institutions for muscial degrees. Holy shit i am so fn thankful i went the other route.
It depends on what you want. If your goal is to play Chopin in front of a bunch of Chopin centered music theorists and win the competition, then you won't get around the system. If you want to entertain an actual audience, then you are absolutely right.
I think classical elitism is getting somewhat better... At least from where I'm coming from I can see more and more music colleges are looking into ways to make you feel like you belong. I think that ego is ruining some of the industry, but it is getting better, it is getting more unacceptable to be egoistic, it is less about elitism and more about showing music to more and more people!
I hope that's true! I've been out of the industry for about 5 years now, so it could be that I just haven't seen recent changes. It'd be amazing to see some change in this. 🙏
Could you explain why this is a problem only with classical musicians and if it's not, why did you only single out classical musicians?
I believe it's the grooming. Like religion, the indoctrination starts very young for classical musicians. There are no other genres I know of that actively discourage children from pursuing music in general at the risk of damaging their future career. Other comparable disciplines would be ballet, highly-skilled athletes, anything where you're isolated from other kids, told you're special/different than them, and if you do anything else, you'll lost what makes you special.
@@ScoresUnstitched And it did not ring true within you that many people come to "classical music" because they like it? I don't know. In my opinion this sounds like some parenting issues existed when you were a kid. But please stop this projection of your own ideas onto others.
Yes, my classical piano teacher even discouraged me from playing other types of music and other instruments. She looked down on me for being in the school's brass band, hahaha.
@@ScoresUnstitched Just to raise a question or two... How does this comparison to religious indoctrination account for people who adopt religion later in life? Also, on the contrary, I know someone (a viola student of mine for nearly 10 years) who was born into strict conservative religious indoctrination, grew up going to church, and then made the decision to leave the church and sought out a new cultural identity before he was mid-aged... I think he's a great person and should be free to pursue what resonates with him on his life path, and I would only offer the same to an individual who may decide to seek spiritual or religious ideals later in their life. I'm attempting to turn a light on here and simply say that I've learned it's important to be careful making assumptions and generalizations about people and their beliefs... The world is a jungle, try not to take what you believe in too seriously! Wishing you the best.
@@shelbytrevor4101This woman’s self-presentation is that of an acute narcissist. She is not interested in conversing with you; she likes her own half-baked boilerplate and believes it to be revelatory. She is not interested in thinking anything through any farther and Your function is not to contribute but to adulate.
Cait for President 👏🏾🤓
They're called the golden oldies for a reason
One of the things I question is how much classical musicians ACTUALLY enjoy the music itself. When one attends a concert, it feels like a museum presentation, and a way to get "validation" from colleagues rather than them getting a genuine, spontaneous reaction from the music.
Have you tried actually asking people who play classical music instead of just questioning yourself.
And any live performance of any music genre for an audience is either gonna be for a paycheck or for some kind of validation, if it was just '' genuine, spontaneous reaction from the music.'' they could might as well just have stayed home.
Lots of classical musicians I’ve spoken to express boredom by classical concerts. When I was in conservatory, most students around me would just text in performance class- that can’t be a sign of enjoyment.
Also the number of musicians who express frustration or even quit at least shows that the love of music can’t be strong enough to compensate the burden.
You’re right, a merely spontaneous performance from the player without the urge to “succeed” won’t do in a high profile gig. It’s just not realistic.
I sang plenty of classical music I did not enjoy at first and learned to appreciate whilst studying them. There is true value in exposing yourself to something that isn’t instantly catching you. However, almost all modern classical pieces I have come across were horrible to learn, to perform and to listen to. I never got to appreciate them and now would absolutely refuse to perform because they make me feel physically uneasy, like a scratchy jumper that makes your skin break out in hives for weeks! But I felt unsafe expressing that back when I sang on a competitive level.
I recently saw an opera written in 2023 and in the program the composer was described as: “…is not afraid to write what might be heard as ‘accessibly’ appealing music.” The way I understand this quote is, “pretty music is vulgar and uneducated and if a composer dares to write something enjoyable these days it is a very brave thing to do”. My interpretation could be confirmation bias, because I have always felt that in the classical music world one is not allowed to criticise modern classical music for being “not enjoyable or not pretty” because if you don’t enjoy that particular piece, surely you are not smart enough to appreciate the intellectual genius behind it. Imposter syndrome kicks in and nobody dares to say anything that could even remotely imply a lack of intellect.
This was always just implied in conversation though. To see it written in black and white where “‘accessibly’ appealing” is used as something that is unusual or brave made me very angry and then super sad. Nothing short of The Emperor’s Cloths.
Now that I am no longer inside this bubble I feel very free to say: I love and listen to certain forms of classical music, end of the story. I no longer try to explain or hide that I avoid unpleasant music. Because exposing myself to uncomfortable things because they are unfamiliar and things that are uncomfortable because they have no intention to connect with the audience are two VERY different things! Connecting with an audience isn’t automatically selling out.
I don't see how you get this from listening at a classical music concert. Aren't you just overlaying your own narrative? You trot out the same clichés. Do you actually like classical music or do you wish it was like something you do like?
I think that the world at large has a toxicity problem and
is not limited to only what seems to exist in classical music. Passion can appear as obsessive to anyone who does not share in that same passion. Work environments of all levels and walks of life are highly highly toxic, and many demands are placed upon those who participate. They are required to submit to dominance controls of office or workplace politics for instance, along with other forms, delivered both directly and indirectly, of abuse, and as well of assaults on their personal identity during the majority of their waking hours -and unless deceased, are required to show up at their desks or workplace regardless. This social agenda and societal etiquette training or “indoctrination” starts in the earliest of childhood, where teachers and other authoritative figures impress the common cultural social standards and rules of societal etiquette accordingly, and those do not ‘fit in’ the mould are essentially and speedily shamed through forced experiences of not having any “in” friends, of not being chosen for participation in the school play or sport team. Classical music has gotten a bad rap, and it continues so because it is singularly being held responsible for an elitism that exists prevalently in all walks of life. To do well in any college, or any day job one must clearly be obsessed and one must cordially submit to the social agenda and societal etiquette respectively involved.
Hi there, interesting thought and very dark, rightly so. I don't think classical music is a scapegoat here, it's more of a microcosm of yes, the elitism which is quite prevalent in society at large. It's difficult to resist its pull. I wonder what elitist views we hold onto, or find it hard to exorcise, like a troublesome demon in our otherwise pleasant home. Or is the whole house riddled with demons - I can't figure out this metaphor!
The lady has an ax to grind so she will studiously ignore your wisdom.
“Western, Eurocentric”. What does that combination even mean? Would you describe Chinese music as “Sinocentric”? All systems are “exclusionary” to some degree, otherwise they aren't systems. What do you mean by elitism and why is that bad? You used that word like 500 times. Major Orchestras are drawn from a worldwide talent pool so expecting them to represent the “city they serve” is absurd. Besides why should they be representative of the city as opposed to their patrons? The people who actually care and buy the tickets. Who cares if a profession draws a certain ethnic group. Would you complain about pro sports in the same way? Jane Austen’s characters are a shade away from poverty; that’s why the women are seeking husbands. There’s nothing “warped” about the classical musicians I know. And I know many. They are very well adjusted. At least not worse than some other high performance profession.
Not just "Western, Eurocentric" but "Western, Eurocentric white". Wokism is strong in this one.
Toda la razón. Se que hay muchos idiotas elitistas en la industria musical pero lo de "Western, Eurocentric white" me hizo reír mucho. Hacer una critica en base a fundamentos raciales es lo más tonto y woke que puede haber. La música occidental fue hecha por hombres occidentales los cuales son blancos en su mayoría; me sorprendería ver que no fuese así. Eso sería, por lo menos, raro. La "falta" de diversidad no es un argumento válido.
I highly believe that a lot of this toxicity comes form ill guided people that think of themselves as the high regarded classical music consumers. They think they are special by any means just for listening to anything from Bach to Beethoven yet without any real meaning other then fully diving into elitism on their own. It's this "classical music fans and heavy metal fans are birds of the same feather" nonsense that drives the wedge further down the flesh of reality, dividing people even more. That means music journalists spreading such unfounded ideas are just as guilty.
At one point I found my way into the world of classical music (whatever this terms means to anyone). Started some listening sessions here and some over there. Eventually found my niches I love to reside when listening to such old musical compositions. But always with the mind of a person that loves movie scores, video game soundtracks and more. I'm following recommendations all over the place. At some point in my life I felt the urge to listen to something that tickles my inner child and also caters to my progressing self as well as to anything in between representing remotely me from the past to the now. Popular music genres could only take me thus far. And I have many nostalgia trips every now and then.
But only the vast world of classical music, lots of jazz recordings and also more traditional leaning musicand song styles keep me fascinated in listening to music as such. Music that has a touch of humanity despite the bad things happening in the industry as a whole. The music itself is innocent. And when people get driven out and far away, what will become of all of that? Many people claiming elitism in classical music will not perform as musicians otherwise, maybe creating some awesome tango recordings or some fascinating salsa manifestos. Fusions of musical styles incorporating accoustic instruments and different lyrical/vocal styles from all over the world aren't knew.
We have no excuses to cling to the old elitism commentary while ignoring the already existing ideas making things more diverse and humane.
Maybe it'd help a lot if we just let the elitists dwell in their own echo chambers?
My inabliity to deal with the avant garde-styled politics of the music industry in the 1970s in music school ultimately led me to develop a new definition of music, based on the modern advancements of museolinguistics and neuropsychology. You may see my abridged TEDx presentation of the definition and the process leading up to it and its significance at
th-cam.com/video/_GDL08pPFwg/w-d-xo.html
Music: What's Your Definition?
I just spent the last hour reading back over entries. I think Ms. Cait struck a nerve.
10:30 you know you're calling this music eurocentric when it's literally from Europe. The people who made the music are European. Is it really surprising that mostly white people are interested in it? Especially in a majority white country, so that would shift it even more. Classical music is also not that popular in general so it would make sense statistically that most of the people involved would come from the majority ethnic group of a country.
If you don't mind me asklng what do you intend to do now that you left the industry?
Music is a completely subjective art form as well, so claiming a certain type of music is superior just because you think so and that it's super complex is ridiculous. It's all ego stroking at the end of the day. I'll stick to my death metal thanks (video was really interesting)
Anytime I hear “Completely subjective” I know someone is not interested in following their thoughts even to intermediate conclusions.
As someone who hates classical music, it is music or the upper classes. Not for a normie like me who prefers third wave emo, who has no understanding of musical theory. Let the elitists gatekeep, it's not my music taste.
Please believe me when I say that elitism is part and parcel of our culture in all endeavors including whatever music you admire.
th-cam.com/video/azpxUnIgsts/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=Tantacrul
experienced classical training in music for over 10 years and have experienced many genres in modern music. the least arrogant people i met were in classical music. yes maybe they seem a bit nosy at times but they value their craft and music. thats why they act like they are something special bc to them making music is something special. The most arrogant douchebags who arent even able to play one single melody on any instrument or who havent even written or played a single piece of music in their lives is recent electronic music like edm and psytrance. they dont even have an ear for music but act like they are mozart themselves.
I'm from the rest of the world, but I grew up with parents who believed in be-bop jazz to the point of religion. It's never ebbed with them, they died with it.
So, this idea that the purest and most important form of music is jazz which is really ONLY performed by about 100 musos between 1959 and 1969 (NOT 1970, because Miles Davis became a TRRRAAAAIIIITTTTOOORRRR and went jazz-fusion), this elitism is rife pretty much everywhere. I became interested in indie rock about 1991 and same there: they are the coolest and most important people, bow down to their importance. I mean, I regurgitated all of that, and only realised it maybe I don't know, a decade ago.
Here's another: circus people are the ones who are more amazing than other artists; New Circus people are more important than regular animal-circus people; (it gets more granular).
e.g. circus artists > classical musicians (who have to s.i.t. down and do nothing interesting, b.o.r.i.n.g).
So, I left that social world and didn't try to make it in any of them, for I'd have to battle them just to get a gig. And you can imagine, this is the lot of those in the 20s. And hey, they all aren't like that, just ones who have eyes that are cold and distant, saying "you have to earn our attention".
However, the classical world sound like the next level up. Which isn't surprising since it came from people who believed THEY were the ones who could access God. Hard to come down from that.
Though if we all find out that God REAAALY preferred Nirvana over Beethoven and the second coming of Christ was Kurt Cobain, then everything is up for discussion.
Man, so many comments on this video just prove your point! But young people with new ideas, critical of the old ones, have always been criticized and mocked. Keep being you!
Given the nature of the OP it’s possible that this comment is coming from herself under an alt. I really wouldn’t put it past her.
I find it interesting that classical music has no place for originality or uniqueness.. how can you possibly find yourself worth when your aspiration is to regurgitate somebody else's creation and play it in the way that everybody else has played it in the past? It's like a never-ending fraternity hazing ritual and somebody has to be getting off on it.. they're almost has to be a group of somebody's who enjoy watching the emotional destruction of otherwise talented people.. usually those who enjoy it most are those without the actual talent to create the thing
You are classical musician?
@@FilipeMRICCarneiro used to be.. Violinist.. Not GOOD.. not BY A LONG SHOT, but I noticed from the earliest education I received that there really wasn't much room for creativity at any time.. EVERYTHING was geared around creating an identical sound to what it was in the past.. I understand it for concert purposes etc, but didn't encourage creative thought or creative ideas and music and there was never any time or effort put into something like that.. the musicians are competing harshly against one another and against the people who played at 100 years ago.. I've seen incredible musicians lose their place for being interesting
Oh yes the sense sore sheep in yt
9:48
But...cannot your criticisms be applicable to any highly demanding vocation? the professional or big time university athlete, gymnasts....dancers of course?
Playing music at a really really high level is damned difficult...and I think you know that.....I once heard Rostropovich drilling and drilling a passage of the Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations just before he was to perform it......and not getting it every time at that! So I am not buying your criticisms.....even worse is that you fault Classical music for being born in Europe.....or being too "white".....those things arent deliberate, they just are!
i think the bigger issue in this video is summed up by the story at the beginning, where the person gets criticized for their compositions. while of course, professors are allowed to criticize students’ work, however calling it ‘daytime television’ doesnt fly. that reflects something wrong in the classical music world. how are you supposed to create inspiring/personal art if youre limited by the people teaching you? if someone does something in a way that you arent used to, that doesnt inherently make the product worse.
while yes, there are standards in the classical music industry (as there are in all the other industries), however some people hang on to those standards with a vice grip. you dont obey the laws of music theory? try again. you clap in between movements? blasphemy. your personal tastes differ from someone elses? youre wrong.
while i cant say i have had the most experience in this industry (im only a second year in college!) but i have experienced elitism and harsh critiques from professors and students alike.
Must be white, well educated, middle class , female who is ranting about racism, toxic this and that in something and so on . :(
"Euro-centric" music of the 10th century...😆You lost me there.
I have a feeling she’s saying this because some old dude hushed at her to not clap between the parts
If you think CM is toxic what about the rap and pop industries. People who are looking for safe spaces should stay in bed, This is so pathetic.
CM are very egocentric and arrogant no?
@@filliiiii7Really? I think the Basic B. who made this vid is far more arrogant than most CM I’ve met.
The dirty little secret is this new music so "opposed" by the music world is EXTREMELY unpopular. Oh sure, we'll squirm through a premiere of screeches, yelps, moans and squeaks but inwardly we're making a shopping list while reading the program and checking the time. They blame everyone - racism, sexism, the "system" (how original). No, its audiences who are secret nationalists. No wait, it's wealth, privilege, anything but the music.
And why just music? Few IT guys had childhoods not wrapped up with games, programming, electronics and immersion in the "system". The real question, can the artistry of a Wang, Malofeev, Trifonov or Van Cliburn be attained with a "holistic" approach or is the lifestyle so criticized here necessary? I left the classical world and decades later that decision seems so right. Stop blaming others for the way your life turned out!
An eager girl.
People who love classical music aren't elitists. They're music lovers who appreciate the ability of genius and talent to take them places they've never been, just like lovers of the finest literature and visual art are. Is a person who goes to a Picasso exhibit or reads a Dostoevsky novel elitists, or do they just want the best that art has to offer. I'm really sorry you aren't successful in the classical music world. I hope you'll keep working hard and that will change.
@@rodthom86Half of the comments here are from unreflected elitists themselves, it's so frustrating lol
She doesn't have to be in the classical world. She could have a fulfilling musical career and make great srt without being involved in classical music.
@@rodthom86
Maybe you're consistent and go ''ugh elitist :*s'' at anyone with a preference about what constitites ''the best art'', if not then you're a hypocritical elitist, just of an inverted-vanity kind. While conservatives are stuck in traditional elitism, it's largely liberal/leftist middle class dominating cultural commentary and criticism, and there there's a poptimist social climat full of inverted vanity elitism. People liftning up the superiority of say pop music as more immidiate and honest get the #YASSLSLAY treatment while people who lift up the superiority of classical music are elitists. It's complete cognitive dissonance.
Both kinds of elitism are dumb if you pretend your preferences are objective, the problem is to know if people are speaking knowlingly subjectively or pseudo-objectively. People just tend to speak about their preferences in a very matter-of-fact way as if they're making some objective claim, but once you probe them the least they often say ''it's just my opinion of course''.
dude, she's already had a vocal hemorrhage trying to "work hard" :(
The Google Thought Police Algorithm is suddenly feeding me unending anti-White narrative of “problematic” Classical music. So obviously manipulative.
You have literally no idea of the gravity of your errors. Let's take "the aged folks who occasionally turn to physical violence to shut up the uninitiated". Nope, I have been going to concerts and performing for nearly 60 years and never saw that. To share my background, I had a music scholarship at Duke, studied with the former concertmaster of Toscanini's NBC Symphony Orchestra who had a Guarneri del Jesu, performed in symphony and chamber orchestras for decades, along with jazz all over Las Vegas. I have a jazz violin cd coming out later this year, and also some recordings for jazz piano.
My uncle won the Queen Elizabeth competition, and was one of the great violinists of the 20th century, Berl Senofsky, and my aunt taught with Pablo Casals and studied with Piatigorsky, and soloed all over the world and was the principal cellist of the Houston Symphony. Another uncle escaped the Holocaust and was a composer and conductor, who along with his wife, who was a pianist, taught at Indiana University. My mother was a concert pianist in her early days, and performed for Eleanor Roosevelt, and she was related to Arthur Rubinstein, who used to come over to hear her play piano. My father was the President of a symphony and my family is well acquainted with some of the greatest musicians this world has known.
In all of my years, never have I or my family members witnessed what you wrote of, of aged folks turning to physical violence to shut up the uninitiated. What I have heard of is that sometimes students venture off in a direction, that can be a huge waste of time and energy, and there are serious criticisms of their music.
If things were as you stated, then there really wouldn't be contemporary music, we would simply just be listening to others who wrote in a style similar to Beethoven, Brahms, or Tchaikovsky. But, that isn't the case, as new ideas come into being, and music evolves, in deference to your video.
Yet, rejection, whether rightfully or wrongfully is a part of life, whether it be Michael Jordan not making his varsity basketball team, or Tchaikovsky not having his violin concerto being well received, or for that matter Schubert's 9th symphony or other works of Beethoven and Brahms getting panned. Sometimes with criticism a student can take something that he or she learned and make it better, and travel down a better path.
You then demonstrate zero cognizance per your remark that "Far Right Nationalists complain when immigrants enter their country". First you have no understanding of nationalism, which has meant placing a top priority of the interests of the citizens of one country, such as securing the safety for the citizens of the US by not having murderers, cartel and gang members, and sex traffickers coming across our border illegally, for which people are being murdered, raped, and we had about 268,000 opioid deaths in 3 years.
You see those who are common sense people, desire legal immigration. What you attribute to far right is basically common sense, like having low inflation, low gas prices, a secure border, no war in the Ukraine, no war in Israel, and for legal immigration to have a wonderful flow.
Nationalism really references uplifting all in a country, of prosperity for all.
I would encourage you to learn instead of making false proclamations out of a lack of understanding.
Then when you wrote of "other cultures have something to offer", inferring that those horrific right wing extremists (oops, normal people who simply desire a good economy for all, legal immigration, and peace in the world) don't recognize that....well, you are wrong.
In my upcoming violin cd that will be out later this year, I wrote one piece based on Spanish culture, another on Latin culture, and others that are blues, that came from African culture. Even Kapustin and Gershwin wrote some jazzy music which came from African culture. My uncle wrote an Indian Symphony, from his time in India, along with what is kind of the national song of India, that has been waking people up in that country since 1936. All of that is in deference to what you claimed.
I am going to give you some life advice......if you want to perpetuate false narratives of stereotypes and hate against older generations, or now for more than half of the country that sees the train wreck of the last three years of a liberal and radical administration.....then if you don't get hired by MSNBC or CNN, I don't know that your energies are going to realize great monetary rewards.
Lastly, you talk about diversity in orchestras. First, the focus is on the best players, as opposed to diversity, albeit there should be great emphasis in music education for every student who would like to play an instrument or sing to have that opportunity.
However, I don't see you complaining about diversity in the NBA or NFL that are dominated by blacks, or in the music industry that is dominated by blacks and Latinos. There are more Asians in orchestras than their percentage of the US population, along with a fair amount of Russian's and Eastern Europeans....oops, I guess they are white people.
All of this from the first 5 minutes and change of your video. Just crazy
Your dialogue reminds me of the words of the famed economist Thomas Sowell, whom you likely have no idea of, and for which he happened to be black, and was truly prolific. Sowell would describe you as "seeking to enjoy a sense of moral superiority out of your ignorance".
I really hope that you will learn, as you seem to be very intelligent, but brainwashed, and unable to really see the world as it is. Another life lesson, speak of what you know, and not of what you don't, but learn of what you don't know before you make wrongful judgments and stereotype large groups of people. Sterotypical generalizations often are the basis for racism, prejudice, and hate, for which engaging in such would make you a hypocrite if you do stand against hate.
I read your comment. She’s not intelligent. Narcissists like to project an image but everything she says is either obvious or stupid.
This channel is toxic