You're absolutely right and I can't believe I screwed that up. Nilered and Cody'sLab would be ashamed of me. This also explains why I decided to buy a pre-mixed batch of salt rather than trying to do it myself. The boiling point of both Potassium Nitrate and Sodium Nitride is below the 920 degrees F that I was using in this video. If you are a chemistry guy, do you know the proper radio of KNO3 and NaNO2 that gives us a nice low melting point but a high enough boiling point to avoid dangerous fumes?
Johnny's Reloading Bench I made my own mix. I looked up the mill spec mil-s-10699 of the mixture he uses and it’s about 50/50. Spectracide stump remover is 100% potassium nitrate and I got the sodium nitrite off amazon.
You know you're a gun nerd when you sitting around on a Saturday night cruising Gunbroker and get excited when you get a Johnnys Reloading Bench notification. My life is perfect.
Just discovered your videos here in Northern Ireland and am now ballistically addicted LOL ! Really enjoying what you do, superb viewing and a fabulous amount of data to keep a fanatical reloader and long range rifleman hugely interested. Many Thanks from across the pond !
Good video Johnny, I’ve been using this salt bath kit for almost 2yrs now and it’s excellent. For $150 you cannot beat the speed and consistency you get with this kit. A little tip for feeding I’ve found works best is to set your metronome to 17 bpm with 2/1 tones. So with every other tone is 7 seconds instead of counting all those beats. Also I put one piece of brass in a hole then wait till just before the 7 second tone to drop another piece of brass in the other hole and grab the first piece at the tone. This gives me time to drop the brass in the water and grab another piece while the annealing is being done.
I was super interested in this method but based on watching this I think I am going to throw 2x the money at it and get the Annealease machine. Thank you for showing this method and how exactly it works.
I had the Annealease and switched to Salt bath annealing about 18 months ago, much more consistent results and faster for me. Doing a batch of 500pcs of 6.5CM or 6.5Gren only takes about an hour total time.
Thanks once again for posting this. Been in contact with ballisticrecreations and excited to try there product. He's local as well so always happy to support local. I probably wouldn't have stumbled upon this product for a while if it wasn't for your video and right in time as I was looking to invest in both annealing and casting. Thanks Johnny!
I've been using the salt bath method for a year now and it works perfectly. But please move your water bucket away from the melter. Even dumping the case into the water can throw a little water towards the melter and you'd be surprised one drop will do. It'll send molten salt to your hands and face. Put the water bucket atleast 2'-3' away. Good video!
YES! A water bucket on the floor, far away from the pot, is the preferred way of doing this. Sometimes I get stuck doing dangerous crap because of the added difficulty of filming. This is one of those cases.
Very helpful and brilliant. Like you , I have always done it with a blowtorch and man does that take forever and a day. For me this is the way to go. I don't have a PID but I think I can figure it out without using one. Will have to buy the kit. This seems the most time and cost effective way to do it. Thank you Johnny.
I bought tempilaq 650 degrees from Brownell 's and a MAP torch. It is very very fast . The Tempilaq melts at the proper temperature so I don't overanneal. It takes about 2 seconds in the flame and drop it dry into I metal box to cool. I start with dirty brass and finish with 30 minutes in a wet stainless steel pin tumbler. It was a very cheap purchase and is much faster than the propane torch. One bottle of tempilaq lasts a long time. Eventually some of the solvent dried up in the tempilaq and I needed to add thinner. I bought the thinner from Brownell 's.
I almost bought some tepilaq for this video but never placed the order. I wasn't sure if it would survive the salt, but some other commenters have said it will. That's definitely the way I should have gone. Thanks, Wayne!
@@JohnnysReloadingBench In my quest to learn about annealing I came across several sources claiming Tempilaq is not an accurate indicator of the internal temperature of the brass and is a waste of money. These same people say the color change of the brass is a more reliable indicator. Although, like you I have had instances where the brass did not change color. I am still too cheap to buy Tempilaq but as long as my brass resizes easily and does not blow my face off I think I am doing okay without it.
I think that brass tarnishing is caused by exposure to oxygen during the heating process. So if the brass is protected from air by the salt during the annealing process you probably will not see much of a color change.
I know right! Picturing dog sled team handing my annealer off to a ice trucker that looks like santa without the suit. But he has a righteous trucker hat on with a beaver on it!
Awesome to see this. I have been researching this and actually bought the salt from another supplier from I thread I found online. I also bought the little Lee pot. I ordered a TC with a digital readout for cheap. Still haven't got the steel insert but plan on making one from a tin can and scrap steel. Well now I have your PID controller on my bench ready to be assembled in the next week or so. So a new TC end and it will plug right into my PID. Thanks for the videos ! I am learning allot !
I don't think salt bath annealing or heat treating will result in color change since the coloration is a layer of oxide caused by exposure of the brass to oxygen at a high temperature--in steel this would be the start of mill scale. In the salt bath, there is not enough oxygen present to allow this oxide layer to form so you won't get the discoloration.
@@yolo-qr2fq I was thinking the same thing. Then if you realize that he's quenching the brass.. How is brass effected by quenching? Is it anything like how steel would harden?
@@beisenmenger with the salts though I don't know if the annealing would continue because there are videos of people letting them sit for longer than necessary in the salt and the body doesn't get hot.
Great video, I use this system and love it. I sold my Annealeez for this. Temperature is key and debatable. But generally accepted temp starts at 750F. Hard to gauge without a temp controller or tempilaq liquids. Couple things I learned. If you want to see where your annealing line stops, remove the case and put it safely on your bench rather than in the water. The salt will dry showing you where it annealed to. Once you look at that put it back in the solution to re melt the salt and then put it in the water. Move on. Secondly, if you’re going to anneal a bunch of different calibers in one session and don’t want to spoon out solution, just get a couple brass nuts at the hardware store and drop them down over the posts in the case holder. I do this with 300 Savage when I anneal 300 WinMag. It acts as a spacer so I can anneal the WinMag then use the spacers to keep the 300 Savage brass higher in the solution since it’s a shorter case. Make sense?
5280 Reloader - Do you still use this system and love it? I have a question about putting the treated case in water. Does the water quench affect the annealing to any degree such as heat treat hardening of steel does? The torch annealer's allow the brass to cool at room temperature and that seems to be an accepted way to cool the brass after annealing. Water is necessary here for cleaning the salts off the cases but I am concerned quenching the hot brass in water may be re-hardening it. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
@@additudeobx Hey there, first off, I am no expert nor am I a metallurgist. That being said, I still use the method and love it. I believe it works very well. Brass does not harden like steel when quenches. The water is used to clean the salts off, nothing else. Now, depending on how hot you get brass, if it is not cooled quickly, the possibility exists for the retained heat to move down the case further than you want. But, I think when heat is removed that isn't a big problem because it starts to cool.
@@additudeobx You bet. I use it in the garage. Never had an issue with fumes or anything. It is dangerous so I make sure I open a door, wear protective clothing and a face shield. If you go slow and keep water sources to a minimum, it's a fun process.
Nice vid! I just started doing this a few months ago. The price from ballistic Recreations is exceptional value. Still working on some loads so cant speak to how important annealing is, but seems like a great idea, and Im not in very much money. The PID controller is a great idea! Im going to add this to my setup. I also wear some safety glasses and leather gloves while handing the brass. The hot salt is no joke.
For the torch guys, an RCBS trim mate with a shell holder rigged up. If you time it right you can get 3ish revolutions in the flame and knock it out into a small bowl
Another great video. The prices on the site are I in CAD . Awhile back, I bought the kit with a 2nd jug of salt, but always planned to use my PID. This method just makes the most sense to me, and the cost of entry doesn't break the bank. Look for "low temperature heat treatment salt" for bulk.
A friend of mine and I are currently working on bringing to the market a auto torch annealer for under 250 shipped. Production models are rolling out local now and hope to be up and running soon
This was very interesting. I haven't reloaded any rifle rounds yet, but I want to start when primers are available again. Right now all I got is small pistol primers. I had quite a few reloading supplies and equipment that I had stored away for emergency use. And since 380 is going for $75 - $85 dollars a box, I figured it was emergency time. Thanks for your channel and all the hard work you do making videos. I have found it to be an invaluable resource learning to re-load. And I think I am liking reloading more than I like shooting now!
I purchased one of these recently, It was only a 20 minute dog sled to meet the owner of Ballistic Recreations. What great service from a top notch fella. Email was answered in Under 10 minutes and within the hour I had a full setup ready to go. He went the distance to make sure I had everything I needed to anneal immediately. If you are concerned about delivery, availability or anything else drop him an email and from my experience he will be more than happy to help you.
it's been a while, but i've just done 30-06 by hand in a propane torch. it's done before it becomes hot to the touch, and rotating it a little by hand gets it looking even enough
With a propane flame, the surface will oxidize and change color as the surface the flame touches gets much hotter than the surface of the brass dipped in the salt bath.
Being from northern Alberta, about 8 hours north of Edmonton and watching this in January, you had me laughing pretty good. That was a really funny dig at us Canadians😁
This is freaking great... I've been sitting on a lead pot to do this for a year and in the mean time just using a propane torching with an electric screwdriver which takes forever. My buddy is an electronics automation guy and avid shooter so seems like a great project to tag team.
Been trying to buy the salt. They have been out of stock forever... I am trying a different media experimenting with steel blasting media. It is working just have to leave the brass in longer
Thinking about annealing since I have been reloading a while now and I want to extend the life of my brass. Love that there is a most cost friendly option. I live in Canada so I like that it's a Canadian coming. Might be picking up a kit soon and get the dog sled to bring it to me (might have to wait for winter though). Great video as always.
Build a little chute to get the water further from the salt or just drop them into a dry pan and add a small fan if you like, metallurgical changes have stopped after brass leaves the salt. Dump them into water when you are done to remove salt.
The New Lee pots come with an oil film on them to prevent rust. You can either wipe them out with a cloth and alcohol or run it up to temp dry outside to burn off the oil before using inside.
If you have to heat brass above 509 degrees to harden it. Wouldn't putting it in the salt bath and then water quenching it case harden the brass, the opposite of what we want. I was always taught that you can heat it to anneal it but never quench because if it is hot enough it will just rearden.
It is interesting for sure. Not trading in my amp, nothing like being able to turn it on anneal 10 cases if you want and be done in a minute. I spoiled myself with it for sure. Glad to see you annealing. Cant wait to see your SDs drop.
Just received my AMP today from Creedmoor Sports in Alabama ... After a few tests and messing around I will say ... Hell ya ... If you have the means ... 😀
The way we used to do it befoe they came out with brass annealed from the factory, was we used an aluminum tray with water in it. Set the brass in neck up. WE then used the torch method to heat the necks, then when they reached the proper color, we just tipped them into the water to quench. Worked just fine that way.
Its a slick idea.. I built one similar to this. Back in 1975 getting my 1st pair of Pipeliner Rim Glasses at TSO ( Texas State Optical) I saw the Technician put my glasses in a Drawer of Heated Hot Sand to make bending the ear pieces to fit me much more pliable. So when I wanted to start annealing I thought about that. Even though I was a welder for 24 years I thought using a torch is just not a consistent method to control exact heat. And this hot sand would be a good starting point. That sugar sand worked well .Its slower than this Salt Bath though.I think the Salt Bath Compound is a better or at least a faster method.
Dammit?! Just finished building a DIY propane annealer, now I'm ordering parts for a PID controller! I had already looked at this, but didn't think about using the controller, good shit Johnny!
Glad to see this video. Once I saw the salt annealing, it really appealed to me more than the AMP cost! Seems more consistent than the torch approach as well. I bought the melting pot already just waiting for the Canadian dude to have more kits ready to go.
I did a whole video series about building the PID! It's extremely long and boring, but here's the first video: th-cam.com/video/AgixJeF0vEU/w-d-xo.html
I have no brass annealing experience at all. Why quench the brass after heating? Wouldn't quenching cause the brass to crystalize and become brittle? The annealing I have performed on other metals for machining have been air cooled slowly to room temperature.
R I was going through the comments looking for this before posting it. All steel is hardened with a “quench” and annealed when slowly cooled so I wonder if this does harden the brass???
Carbon is what hardens metals after heating and quenching, brass contains no significant amount of carbon to harden it when quenched. www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Gary at BR said that the salt should be at the base of the shoulder (where it meets the body). Dip a case in at ~400F and quickly pull it out. If it will solidifies right away you're good. That will give an accurate depth measurement. Much hotter and it just doesn't solidify fast enough to show the depth correctly.
I just got my Aztec amp firmware installed. 6 dasher after blowing the shoulder out from 6 br, with the same die setup gave me 5 thou difference between annealed vs not annealed.
If you had a wilson seating die and a km arbor press with force gauge you could measure the difference in seating force from 5-6 times fired brass then anneal some and measure the seating force.
That was crazy my friend, very well done. I am going to have to do something like that for my 260 Ackley improved. When you are fire forming brass and needs to be annealed first thank you again.
Maybe consider a cover over the bowl of water with a small hole (1 1/2"-2"), and a slide leading to it that you can drop the brass onto so it can slide into the water without splashing out. Make the water bowl deep so that the brass doesn't pile up and block the slide.
I've been dip annealing for ~40yrs (but using lead). Since you're heating the brass inside & outside simultaneously, at the CORRECT temperature, timing doesn't matter. You could leave the brass in there for a few seconds, or an hour, and the result is exactly the same. Perfect. Forget coloration, you don't cause it here. You don't have to quench cases either, but it doesn't hurt and you can rinse off the cases with that. You also do not need to fiddle with that metal stand-off. Just hold the cases with gloved fingers and dip each one to desired depth (easier to see without the metal stand-off). You don't need exact temperature control either. It's sufficient to process anneal, just the same, across a very wide temperature range from ~80% dial. 700-900degF
@Johnny's Reloading Bench If I'm cutting down .223 brass to make .300 Blackout cases, do I need to anneal the brass before I use my neck forming die and then onto my sizing die? Thanks 💯
My dad got me an Anneal Eez machine for by Bday this month and I really like it. Only bummer is that it has some issues with 7.62x54r due to the large rim. It works but you have to bump each case to get it to fall off the wheel at the bottom (on mine at least)
The problem I have with hot salt bath is there is hot liquid on the table and if you are not cautious something bad might happen. I initially bought a Bench Source annealer but moved on to the Amp Annealer 2. It was expensive but worth it for me.
When I looked at annealing options this salt bath was very attractive but the whole guessing how long it takes didn't appeal to me so I build my own unique design for about $20 bucks in parts not counting torch cost. It worked great and the best part, no more counting Mississippis in your head :) the timer was controlled by Arduino and you could clearly see the discoloration, I think it's a flame signature thing. I recorded video like a year ago but haven't got around to uploading. I am glad you made video though on this.
I got a Mikes Reloading bench annealer. I did not need to buy extra parts to do a wide variety of cases and the wheel is made out of a metal. Both Anneleze and Giruard require purchase of extra parts to do other cases, the Anneleze has plastic type of wheels. The MIke's is not quite as expensive as the Giruard, almost double the Anneleze unless you purchase the extra wheels then they come closer to cost. It has a hopper, once you set the torch, you can leave it run and do other stuff, just keep an eye on it since it is fire. I had thought about a salt bath but that requires me to handle each and every case and time it myself and the turn table torches you have to load each case individually plus you have to find the salts where the torch method you go to any hardware store and you will easily find that gas you need. The hoppers are much more convenient. I anneal more for accuracy and consistency, brass life is nice but not may main goal. I'm a hobbyist type of re-loader as well.
After using it for a while what are your thought? Is the quality of annealing up to par? Annealing made perfect did an article on how it is not a good method, but I’m sure they are trying to push their stuff. So my question is what are your long term thoughts?
I just read through the AMP article: www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/ I tend to believe their findings. I went into it thinking it was marketing BS, but it looks like they actually used good methodology and have serious equipment. I also think their possible explanation of their findings (that the smaller surface area of the neck compared to the body yields less heat transfer and less annealing for the neck) makes sense and is plausible. All that being said, I think the bottom line is WHY are you annealing? If you’re annealing to make your brass last 10 cycles instead of 5, then I think the salt bath method may be fine. The AMP guys seem to be building these machines for ultra marksmen and competitors. I get that. $1100 is not a lot of it cuts your group size from .5” to .25” and helps you win. But for me, if I’m hitting 1MOA, I’m good. And I can do that with UNannealed brass that’s been shot 5 times. So, while I believe their findings, I don’t think they apply to the vast majority of people interested in annealing.
Ok using a torch stood up with a plastic lantern base. I find a socket that fits the case well like a 11mm for a heat sink. I let the case drop in the socket which is on a battery powered screw driver i spin the case neck at the tip of the blue flame and count to 7 saying 1001, 1002, for 7 to 8 seconds tip the case out into a pan and do over. You might start with the lights dimmed so you can see the effect better. You can do hundreds in no time at all. If you shoot squirrels let say with a .204 or .223 and shoot hundreds a day you will need to reload to be able to afford the carnage. I anneal after almost every shot. I used to go four firings but found just do it every time you can get and your brass will last many reloads.
brass anneals 600-800F. sodium nitrate and potasium nitrate boil below 750F so i would think ideal temperature would be between 600 and 750F if maintaining the medium at a stable consistancy. Simply changing time and water bath cooling
Assuming spent primers are made from some ferrous material, the drill method would be as easy as using rare earth (hard drive) magnets on a rod to easily "attach" them and allow them to be rotated.
THANK YOU! I have been looking for a good method to anneal cases for a couple of years. and of all of them out there, this seems like it would provide the most consistent heat all the way around the brass. and the height should be easily adjusted as well. i like every thing about this method.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench FWIW, the biggest problem i have had shooting 300 win mag has been short case life. specifically, cracking of the neck, usually around 4 or 5 loads was all i could get.
I have a couple questions for everyone.......! First, I've used 100% potassium nitrate for hot niter bluing small steel gun parts ! And it works great for coloring the metal, from straw yellow to ultra-violet ! It all depends on time & temp....... So, is there any reason why it would it not work for this application ? And secondly, why quench in water ?? For annealing metals, you would normally let it air cool down to the ambient temp on it's own ! Normally you would quench, when you want to impart a particular hardness ! Thanks for all of your time, making these videos !!
Unlike steel, brass does not quench harden. However salt bath annealing has been shown to produce "annealed colored brass" is does not aneal (soften brass) enough see www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/
Thanks for the video, I’ve been kicking around the idea of doing some annealing but didn’t want to spend that much money on some of the machines. Salt bath looks to be the way for me to go. Thanks again for the info.
annealing isnt just about case life, its also about neck tension. getting the projectiles to all release at the same point in the pressure curve aids in the consistency. i find with an annealed case, i can get very accurate uniform necks and improved accuracy. tolerances seem to be close to that obtained by neck tuning, simply by annealing and then using the LEE collet neck sizer "correctly"
I think I remember hearing or reading a while back that Bryan Litz said that experimenting with annealing showed it had no noticeable affect on neck tension and only seemed to improve case life and make resizing easier. Don't quote me on that though. I'm sure someone else who knows more about it can chime in here.
Do you have to cench the brass in water or can you allow them air cool. We were taught in machine class if you allow the metal to air cool in with remain softer or more annealed.
I am glad you did a review of this as I have been looking at his stuff for a little while. I never did get an answer from him about making me a holder for the 17 Hornet so I guess I will send him another email about that.
With that metronome app, set the time signature to 7/4 (or 7/1, 7/2, 7/8) @ 60BPM. That will leave you an audio que for the when to put the cases into the bath followed by 6 notes that will elapse the time they have been in the bath. The 1, 2, 4, and 8 are the types of notes that are played; whole, half, quarter, and eighth respectfully.
O.k. thanks for the info. I have cut and formed more than a few .300 win mags or 7mm mags. Cut down to 350 rem mag . I never annealed. Yes a few of them I had to trim "again". But other than that I have had no issues. Or at least I think so.
The salt mixture contains Sodium nitrite not nitrate. They are different.
You're absolutely right and I can't believe I screwed that up. Nilered and Cody'sLab would be ashamed of me. This also explains why I decided to buy a pre-mixed batch of salt rather than trying to do it myself. The boiling point of both Potassium Nitrate and Sodium Nitride is below the 920 degrees F that I was using in this video. If you are a chemistry guy, do you know the proper radio of KNO3 and NaNO2 that gives us a nice low melting point but a high enough boiling point to avoid dangerous fumes?
Johnny's Reloading Bench I made my own mix. I looked up the mill spec mil-s-10699 of the mixture he uses and it’s about 50/50. Spectracide stump remover is 100% potassium nitrate and I got the sodium nitrite off amazon.
i only know 2 salts, nacl and kcl, nacl is kitchen salt en kcl is pottasium salt. no2 are nitrates witch i toughed were explosif when heated
@@marcrobert2603 In chemistry circles salt is a generic term that applies to a lot of compounds with various chemical compositions.
with that video, no more lee lead melters are available,lol, i still find this way off annealing the most difficult decision ever to make.
You know you're a gun nerd when you sitting around on a Saturday night cruising Gunbroker and get excited when you get a Johnnys Reloading Bench notification. My life is perfect.
Haha me 2
Lol glad l’m not the only one 😁
I was thinking the exact same thing!
Yep, me too!
Yep, guilty as charged!
Nothing better than a Saturday night watching Johnny reload thanks for the video
Just discovered your videos here in Northern Ireland and am now ballistically addicted LOL ! Really enjoying what you do, superb viewing and a fabulous amount of data to keep a fanatical reloader and long range rifleman hugely interested. Many Thanks from across the pond !
Uh oh. We aint tryin to start a civil war now eh?
Thanks for uploading this. your videos have really helped me grow my reloading skills.
Here Here! I got into 300BLK mainly because of Johnny...and Grendel...
Watching his videos will also empty your bank account..lol
@@redraiderreloading7612 I think we would probably spend the same. I think JRB's videos help us get more bang for the buck though.
Good video Johnny, I’ve been using this salt bath kit for almost 2yrs now and it’s excellent. For $150 you cannot beat the speed and consistency you get with this kit. A little tip for feeding I’ve found works best is to set your metronome to 17 bpm with 2/1 tones. So with every other tone is 7 seconds instead of counting all those beats. Also I put one piece of brass in a hole then wait till just before the 7 second tone to drop another piece of brass in the other hole and grab the first piece at the tone. This gives me time to drop the brass in the water and grab another piece while the annealing is being done.
I was super interested in this method but based on watching this I think I am going to throw 2x the money at it and get the Annealease machine. Thank you for showing this method and how exactly it works.
I had the Annealease and switched to Salt bath annealing about 18 months ago, much more consistent results and faster for me. Doing a batch of 500pcs of 6.5CM or 6.5Gren only takes about an hour total time.
Thanks once again for posting this. Been in contact with ballisticrecreations and excited to try there product. He's local as well so always happy to support local. I probably wouldn't have stumbled upon this product for a while if it wasn't for your video and right in time as I was looking to invest in both annealing and casting. Thanks Johnny!
I've been using the salt bath method for a year now and it works perfectly. But please move your water bucket away from the melter. Even dumping the case into the water can throw a little water towards the melter and you'd be surprised one drop will do. It'll send molten salt to your hands and face. Put the water bucket atleast 2'-3' away. Good video!
Thanks for the words of warning.
YES! A water bucket on the floor, far away from the pot, is the preferred way of doing this. Sometimes I get stuck doing dangerous crap because of the added difficulty of filming. This is one of those cases.
I love all the safety expert on here....
@@Springfield-eo8jl molten salt, lead, and tar. all those are very dangerous. Cuz they don't cool down very fast and stick to you.
The question I have is having salt in my barrel of my gun just don’t seem like a good idea. Do you have any info on this what’s your thoughts???
Really fantastic vid!! Thanks Johnny!!! I always learn at least 1 or 2 things per video!! Proud Patreon member!!
Very helpful and brilliant. Like you , I have always done it with a blowtorch and man does that take forever and a day. For me this is the way to go. I don't have a PID but I think I can figure it out without using one. Will have to buy the kit. This seems the most time and cost effective way to do it. Thank you Johnny.
Yeah, I think even without a PID it would be a pretty good setup. If you buy their kit with the meter let me know how it goes!
@@JohnnysReloadingBench will do !
Johnny, you are a gentleman and a scholar!!! Thank you for all your work sharing this information with us.
"Take advantage of both holes"... gigidy
Just did my first salt bath annealing today on some 300win mag so far i love it
I bought tempilaq 650 degrees from Brownell 's and a MAP torch. It is very very fast . The Tempilaq melts at the proper temperature so I don't overanneal. It takes about 2 seconds in the flame and drop it dry into I metal box to cool. I start with dirty brass and finish with 30 minutes in a wet stainless steel pin tumbler. It was a very cheap purchase and is much faster than the propane torch. One bottle of tempilaq lasts a long time. Eventually some of the solvent dried up in the tempilaq and I needed to add thinner. I bought the thinner from Brownell 's.
I almost bought some tepilaq for this video but never placed the order. I wasn't sure if it would survive the salt, but some other commenters have said it will. That's definitely the way I should have gone. Thanks, Wayne!
@@JohnnysReloadingBench In my quest to learn about annealing I came across several sources claiming Tempilaq is not an accurate indicator of the internal temperature of the brass and is a waste of money. These same people say the color change of the brass is a more reliable indicator. Although, like you I have had instances where the brass did not change color. I am still too cheap to buy Tempilaq but as long as my brass resizes easily and does not blow my face off I think I am doing okay without it.
I had no clue that this was an option! Thanks for sharing and teaching man
I think that brass tarnishing is caused by exposure to oxygen during the heating process. So if the brass is protected from air by the salt during the annealing process you probably will not see much of a color change.
This video was incredibly informative and I'm glad that you took the time to do this!
"Dog Sled Teams and Ice Road Truckers involved" lol :)
Plus the Connor McDavid surcharge...makes shipping ridiculous!
I know right! Picturing dog sled team handing my annealer off to a ice trucker that looks like santa without the suit. But he has a righteous trucker hat on with a beaver on it!
Awesome to see this. I have been researching this and actually bought the salt from another supplier from I thread I found online. I also bought the little Lee pot. I ordered a TC with a digital readout for cheap. Still haven't got the steel insert but plan on making one from a tin can and scrap steel. Well now I have your PID controller on my bench ready to be assembled in the next week or so. So a new TC end and it will plug right into my PID. Thanks for the videos ! I am learning allot !
I don't think salt bath annealing or heat treating will result in color change since the coloration is a layer of oxide caused by exposure of the brass to oxygen at a high temperature--in steel this would be the start of mill scale. In the salt bath, there is not enough oxygen present to allow this oxide layer to form so you won't get the discoloration.
I wonder if you'd get the discoloration if you let it air cool
@@yolo-qr2fq I was thinking the same thing. Then if you realize that he's quenching the brass.. How is brass effected by quenching? Is it anything like how steel would harden?
@@evancarrick8 I dont think its anything like steel. I think he puts them in the water bath to clean off the majority of the salt.
@@yolo-qr2fq The Quenching is to remove salt but primarily to instantly stop the annealing process from continuing to spread down the case.
@@beisenmenger with the salts though I don't know if the annealing would continue because there are videos of people letting them sit for longer than necessary in the salt and the body doesn't get hot.
Great video, I use this system and love it. I sold my Annealeez for this. Temperature is key and debatable. But generally accepted temp starts at 750F. Hard to gauge without a temp controller or tempilaq liquids.
Couple things I learned. If you want to see where your annealing line stops, remove the case and put it safely on your bench rather than in the water. The salt will dry showing you where it annealed to. Once you look at that put it back in the solution to re melt the salt and then put it in the water. Move on.
Secondly, if you’re going to anneal a bunch of different calibers in one session and don’t want to spoon out solution, just get a couple brass nuts at the hardware store and drop them down over the posts in the case holder. I do this with 300 Savage when I anneal 300 WinMag. It acts as a spacer so I can anneal the WinMag then use the spacers to keep the 300 Savage brass higher in the solution since it’s a shorter case. Make sense?
5280 Reloader - Do you still use this system and love it? I have a question about putting the treated case in water. Does the water quench affect the annealing to any degree such as heat treat hardening of steel does? The torch annealer's allow the brass to cool at room temperature and that seems to be an accepted way to cool the brass after annealing. Water is necessary here for cleaning the salts off the cases but I am concerned quenching the hot brass in water may be re-hardening it. I don't know. What are your thoughts?
@@additudeobx Hey there, first off, I am no expert nor am I a metallurgist. That being said, I still use the method and love it. I believe it works very well. Brass does not harden like steel when quenches. The water is used to clean the salts off, nothing else. Now, depending on how hot you get brass, if it is not cooled quickly, the possibility exists for the retained heat to move down the case further than you want. But, I think when heat is removed that isn't a big problem because it starts to cool.
@@lanceschul- I appreciate that friend! Do you use it inside at all, or is this an outside, well ventilated area use only device? Appreciate!
@@additudeobx You bet. I use it in the garage. Never had an issue with fumes or anything. It is dangerous so I make sure I open a door, wear protective clothing and a face shield. If you go slow and keep water sources to a minimum, it's a fun process.
Nice vid! I just started doing this a few months ago. The price from ballistic Recreations is exceptional value. Still working on some loads so cant speak to how important annealing is, but seems like a great idea, and Im not in very much money. The PID controller is a great idea! Im going to add this to my setup. I also wear some safety glasses and leather gloves while handing the brass. The hot salt is no joke.
I got this set up. I love it. It's a fun way to spend a few hours after work. Not actually gotten to shoot any of this prepared brass yet....
For the torch guys, an RCBS trim mate with a shell holder rigged up. If you time it right you can get 3ish revolutions in the flame and knock it out into a small bowl
Another great video. The prices on the site are I in CAD . Awhile back, I bought the kit with a 2nd jug of salt, but always planned to use my PID. This method just makes the most sense to me, and the cost of entry doesn't break the bank. Look for "low temperature heat treatment salt" for bulk.
A friend of mine and I are currently working on bringing to the market a auto torch annealer for under 250 shipped. Production models are rolling out local now and hope to be up and running soon
Wow!!! Count me as super interested!!! Keep Johnny updated please!!!
Nice that would be great
I'm in ! Jpquad77@gmail.com
It will be interesting to see what you put out.
Thank you for another great video. Almost saw your face. Not quite but almost. Thank you for what you do. I have learned a lot.
This was very interesting. I haven't reloaded any rifle rounds yet, but I want to start when primers are available again. Right now all I got is small pistol primers. I had quite a few reloading supplies and equipment that I had stored away for emergency use. And since 380 is going for $75 - $85 dollars a box, I figured it was emergency time. Thanks for your channel and all the hard work you do making videos. I have found it to be an invaluable resource learning to re-load. And I think I am liking reloading more than I like shooting now!
The water drop at about 33:28 nearly went into the pot. I've seen people do this with a homer bucket at their feet, that might be a bit safer.
Yes. Water was too close to salt bath.
Another great video. I anneal all my brass with a torch. I might have to look more into salt bath annealing. Looks like a good cheap solution
My kit just came in from them. I went with the full kit and an extra jar of salt. I might need to make a PID controller now.
I purchased one of these recently, It was only a 20 minute dog sled to meet the owner of Ballistic Recreations. What great service from a top notch fella. Email was answered in Under 10 minutes and within the hour I had a full setup ready to go. He went the distance to make sure I had everything I needed to anneal immediately. If you are concerned about delivery, availability or anything else drop him an email and from my experience he will be more than happy to help you.
it's been a while, but i've just done 30-06 by hand in a propane torch. it's done before it becomes hot to the touch, and rotating it a little by hand gets it looking even enough
With a propane flame, the surface will oxidize and change color as the surface the flame touches gets much hotter than the surface of the brass dipped in the salt bath.
Being from northern Alberta, about 8 hours north of Edmonton and watching this in January, you had me laughing pretty good. That was a really funny dig at us Canadians😁
This is freaking great... I've been sitting on a lead pot to do this for a year and in the mean time just using a propane torching with an electric screwdriver which takes forever. My buddy is an electronics automation guy and avid shooter so seems like a great project to tag team.
Been trying to buy the salt. They have been out of stock forever... I am trying a different media experimenting with steel blasting media. It is working just have to leave the brass in longer
Thinking about annealing since I have been reloading a while now and I want to extend the life of my brass. Love that there is a most cost friendly option. I live in Canada so I like that it's a Canadian coming. Might be picking up a kit soon and get the dog sled to bring it to me (might have to wait for winter though). Great video as always.
are you serious about the sled? i was planning on moving up there if we lose this election.
@@pearlrival3124 it was a joke. You have to watch the video.
Yes! I’ve been heavily researching salt bath annealing vs the annealez. Great timing on this segment
I bought the annealeez ...works like a charm ...
"I went ahead and picked up two cans"
Picking up Toucans can be dangerous, those fuckers bite.
I'll send you a recipe for grilled American Eagle
Build a little chute to get the water further from the salt or just drop them into a dry pan and add a small fan if you like, metallurgical changes have stopped after brass leaves the salt. Dump them into water when you are done to remove salt.
The New Lee pots come with an oil film on them to prevent rust. You can either wipe them out with a cloth and alcohol or run it up to temp dry outside to burn off the oil before using inside.
If you have to heat brass above 509 degrees to harden it. Wouldn't putting it in the salt bath and then water quenching it case harden the brass, the opposite of what we want. I was always taught that you can heat it to anneal it but never quench because if it is hot enough it will just rearden.
It is interesting for sure. Not trading in my amp, nothing like being able to turn it on anneal 10 cases if you want and be done in a minute. I spoiled myself with it for sure. Glad to see you annealing. Cant wait to see your SDs drop.
I bought my AMP and it didn't work. Had to send it back to New Zeeland. Its on its way back. Should be back monday
I'm doing salt bath right now, but damn I would love an AMP...
Just received my AMP today from Creedmoor Sports in Alabama ... After a few tests and messing around I will say ... Hell ya ... If you have the means ... 😀
Finally something less expensive and some what time efficient for the average reloader. Great video and yes TH-cam policies SUCK!
The way we used to do it befoe they came out with brass annealed from the factory, was we used an aluminum tray with water in it. Set the brass in neck up. WE then used the torch method to heat the necks, then when they reached the proper color, we just tipped them into the water to quench. Worked just fine that way.
Its a slick idea.. I built one similar to this. Back in 1975 getting my 1st pair of Pipeliner Rim Glasses at TSO ( Texas State Optical) I saw the Technician put my glasses in a Drawer of Heated Hot Sand to make bending the ear pieces to fit me much more pliable. So when I wanted to start annealing I thought about that. Even though I was a welder for 24 years I thought using a torch is just not a consistent method to control exact heat. And this hot sand would be a good starting point. That sugar sand worked well .Its slower than this Salt Bath though.I think the Salt Bath Compound is a better or at least a faster method.
Love your videos. I just went out and got all the things I need to start reloading.
lol u always seem to find a way to make things far more complicated than they need to be! well done
If you have a lee pot that has been used for lead you can buy a new pot for cheap, just a couple screws to change
Dammit?! Just finished building a DIY propane annealer, now I'm ordering parts for a PID controller! I had already looked at this, but didn't think about using the controller, good shit Johnny!
This seems like the way to go for large batches of brass. I use the candle method since I just want a few more firings out of my 7.5 swiss and 8x57.
Potassium and sodium nitrates are used for making various black powders.
Glad to see this video. Once I saw the salt annealing, it really appealed to me more than the AMP cost! Seems more consistent than the torch approach as well. I bought the melting pot already just waiting for the Canadian dude to have more kits ready to go.
Great video. Can you possibly do a quick video talking about your controller? Thanks
I did a whole video series about building the PID! It's extremely long and boring, but here's the first video: th-cam.com/video/AgixJeF0vEU/w-d-xo.html
Can you recommend a Commercially available equivalent to the one you made ? The Video, like all your videos, was well done and very informative.
JRB cant do a short video of anything, but that's what we like about him
I grew up in edmonton, next time i go to my parents im finding this guy and buying one in person. Cool stuff
I have no brass annealing experience at all. Why quench the brass after heating? Wouldn't quenching cause the brass to crystalize and become brittle? The annealing I have performed on other metals for machining have been air cooled slowly to room temperature.
If im not mistaken, annealing also provides a more consistent neck tension on the brass also which makes for a tad more accurate of a group
Does quenching in water that fast effect the brass negatively?
R I was going through the comments looking for this before posting it. All steel is hardened with a “quench” and annealed when slowly cooled so I wonder if this does harden the brass???
Carbon is what hardens metals after heating and quenching, brass contains no significant amount of carbon to harden it when quenched.
www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Taking “advantage of both holes” huh?! LOL Another awesome video!
Gary at BR said that the salt should be at the base of the shoulder (where it meets the body). Dip a case in at ~400F and quickly pull it out. If it will solidifies right away you're good. That will give an accurate depth measurement. Much hotter and it just doesn't solidify fast enough to show the depth correctly.
I reload and after cleaning brass to a high Sheen i load it up after full sizing my brass. Never had issues thus far.
I just got my Aztec amp firmware installed. 6 dasher after blowing the shoulder out from 6 br, with the same die setup gave me 5 thou difference between annealed vs not annealed.
If you had a wilson seating die and a km arbor press with force gauge you could measure the difference in seating force from 5-6 times fired brass then anneal some and measure the seating force.
That was crazy my friend, very well done. I am going to have to do something like that for my 260 Ackley improved. When you are fire forming brass and needs to be annealed first thank you again.
Maybe consider a cover over the bowl of water with a small hole (1 1/2"-2"), and a slide leading to it that you can drop the brass onto so it can slide into the water without splashing out. Make the water bowl deep so that the brass doesn't pile up and block the slide.
I've been dip annealing for ~40yrs (but using lead). Since you're heating the brass inside & outside simultaneously, at the CORRECT temperature, timing doesn't matter. You could leave the brass in there for a few seconds, or an hour, and the result is exactly the same. Perfect.
Forget coloration, you don't cause it here. You don't have to quench cases either, but it doesn't hurt and you can rinse off the cases with that.
You also do not need to fiddle with that metal stand-off. Just hold the cases with gloved fingers and dip each one to desired depth (easier to see without the metal stand-off). You don't need exact temperature control either. It's sufficient to process anneal, just the same, across a very wide temperature range from ~80% dial. 700-900degF
you don't want to anneal the whole thing, so timing is important - Johnny calls you a jackwagon see 18:32
Just wondering about safety with open flame touch and powder
@Johnny's Reloading Bench If I'm cutting down .223 brass to make .300 Blackout cases, do I need to anneal the brass before I use my neck forming die and then onto my sizing die? Thanks 💯
I wonder,, Not to throw a wrench in the gears, water or oil quenching is the way metal is hardened. I wonder if brass is reacting in the same way?
Nope. Brass does not harden with water quenching the same way high carbon steel does.
My dad got me an Anneal Eez machine for by Bday this month and I really like it. Only bummer is that it has some issues with 7.62x54r due to the large rim. It works but you have to bump each case to get it to fall off the wheel at the bottom (on mine at least)
The problem I have with hot salt bath is there is hot liquid on the table and if you are not cautious something bad might happen. I initially bought a Bench Source annealer but moved on to the Amp Annealer 2. It was expensive but worth it for me.
When I looked at annealing options this salt bath was very attractive but the whole guessing how long it takes didn't appeal to me so I build my own unique design for about $20 bucks in parts not counting torch cost. It worked great and the best part, no more counting Mississippis in your head :) the timer was controlled by Arduino and you could clearly see the discoloration, I think it's a flame signature thing. I recorded video like a year ago but haven't got around to uploading. I am glad you made video though on this.
I would be interested in seeing this
If you don't tumble your brass prior to salt annealing, would you contaminate your salt with powder residue from the dirty cases?
Trying to figure out how to take advantage of both holes. I hear you brother.
I have an annealeez and I really am happy with it.
Wouldn't quenching in water temper the brass, not anneal it?
I have done about 500 cases with this kit and would recommend it. If you feel that you can saflely cast bullets then you can do this.
I got a Mikes Reloading bench annealer. I did not need to buy extra parts to do a wide variety of cases and the wheel is made out of a metal. Both Anneleze and Giruard require purchase of extra parts to do other cases, the Anneleze has plastic type of wheels. The MIke's is not quite as expensive as the Giruard, almost double the Anneleze unless you purchase the extra wheels then they come closer to cost. It has a hopper, once you set the torch, you can leave it run and do other stuff, just keep an eye on it since it is fire. I had thought about a salt bath but that requires me to handle each and every case and time it myself and the turn table torches you have to load each case individually plus you have to find the salts where the torch method you go to any hardware store and you will easily find that gas you need. The hoppers are much more convenient. I anneal more for accuracy and consistency, brass life is nice but not may main goal. I'm a hobbyist type of re-loader as well.
After using it for a while what are your thought?
Is the quality of annealing up to par? Annealing made perfect did an article on how it is not a good method, but I’m sure they are trying to push their stuff. So my question is what are your long term thoughts?
I just read through the AMP article:
www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/
I tend to believe their findings. I went into it thinking it was marketing BS, but it looks like they actually used good methodology and have serious equipment. I also think their possible explanation of their findings (that the smaller surface area of the neck compared to the body yields less heat transfer and less annealing for the neck) makes sense and is plausible.
All that being said, I think the bottom line is WHY are you annealing? If you’re annealing to make your brass last 10 cycles instead of 5, then I think the salt bath method may be fine. The AMP guys seem to be building these machines for ultra marksmen and competitors. I get that. $1100 is not a lot of it cuts your group size from .5” to .25” and helps you win. But for me, if I’m hitting 1MOA, I’m good. And I can do that with UNannealed brass that’s been shot 5 times. So, while I believe their findings, I don’t think they apply to the vast majority of people interested in annealing.
Thanks for the link I found it very informative.
I totally agree with annealing, I’ve bought an AMP machine & honestly it’s the best money I’ve ever spent in my reloading room.
Just go my AMP today ... I want to annealing everything in sure now 😀
Another great video.....Thanks again.
Ok using a torch stood up with a plastic lantern base. I find a socket that fits the case well like a 11mm for a heat sink. I let the case drop in the socket which is on a battery powered screw driver i spin the case neck at the tip of the blue flame and count to 7 saying 1001, 1002, for 7 to 8 seconds tip the case out into a pan and do over. You might start with the lights dimmed so you can see the effect better. You can do hundreds in no time at all. If you shoot squirrels let say with a .204 or .223 and shoot hundreds a day you will need to reload to be able to afford the carnage. I anneal after almost every shot. I used to go four firings but found just do it every time you can get and your brass will last many reloads.
brass anneals 600-800F. sodium nitrate and potasium nitrate boil below 750F so i would think ideal temperature would be between 600 and 750F if maintaining the medium at a stable consistancy. Simply changing time and water bath cooling
Assuming spent primers are made from some ferrous material, the drill method would be as easy as using rare earth (hard drive) magnets on a rod to easily "attach" them and allow them to be rotated.
THANK YOU! I have been looking for a good method to anneal cases for a couple of years. and of all of them out there, this seems like it would provide the most consistent heat all the way around the brass. and the height should be easily adjusted as well. i like every thing about this method.
No problem! I'm with you...this seems like a great method that will be very flexible.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench FWIW, the biggest problem i have had shooting 300 win mag has been short case life. specifically, cracking of the neck, usually around 4 or 5 loads was all i could get.
I have a couple questions for everyone.......! First, I've used 100% potassium nitrate for hot niter bluing small steel gun parts !
And it works great for coloring the metal, from straw yellow to ultra-violet ! It all depends on time & temp....... So, is there any reason why it would it not work for this application ?
And secondly, why quench in water ?? For annealing metals, you would normally let it air cool down to the ambient temp on it's own ! Normally you would quench, when you want to impart a particular hardness ! Thanks for all of your time, making these videos !!
Unlike steel, brass does not quench harden. However salt bath annealing has been shown to produce "annealed colored brass" is does not aneal (soften brass) enough see www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/
What about salt water getting down inside the case?
Thanks for the video, I’ve been kicking around the idea of doing some annealing but didn’t want to spend that much money on some of the machines. Salt bath looks to be the way for me to go. Thanks again for the info.
annealing isnt just about case life, its also about neck tension. getting the projectiles to all release at the same point in the pressure curve aids in the consistency. i find with an annealed case, i can get very accurate uniform necks and improved accuracy. tolerances seem to be close to that obtained by neck tuning, simply by annealing and then using the LEE collet neck sizer "correctly"
I think I remember hearing or reading a while back that Bryan Litz said that experimenting with annealing showed it had no noticeable affect on neck tension and only seemed to improve case life and make resizing easier. Don't quote me on that though. I'm sure someone else who knows more about it can chime in here.
Do you have to cench the brass in water or can you allow them air cool. We were taught in machine class if you allow the metal to air cool in with remain softer or more annealed.
I am glad you did a review of this as I have been looking at his stuff for a little while. I never did get an answer from him about making me a holder for the 17 Hornet so I guess I will send him another email about that.
With that metronome app, set the time signature to 7/4 (or 7/1, 7/2, 7/8) @ 60BPM. That will leave you an audio que for the when to put the cases into the bath followed by 6 notes that will elapse the time they have been in the bath. The 1, 2, 4, and 8 are the types of notes that are played; whole, half, quarter, and eighth respectfully.
God I learn so much from this channel. Cheers mate.
O.k. thanks for the info. I have cut and formed more than a few .300 win mags or 7mm mags. Cut down to 350 rem mag . I never annealed. Yes a few of them I had to trim "again".
But other than that I have had no issues.
Or at least I think so.
Technically heating metal and then quenching it actually hardens metal. Slow cooling softens it. I run an induction hardener where I work.
Really? Same with brass? You may want to do your research again.....
Why do I giggle every time Johnny says “you’ll blow your face off”? I guess I’ve never made it past the mental age of 12.
How many cases can you anneal before you detect a noticeable temp drop in the salts?