drilling all the way through any piece of metal with a barrel: breechloader drilling all the way through a cylinder with a barrel: omg, completely new invention! it's... revolutionary!
@@klarname_online9356 yea, pretty weird Rollin White was allowed to patent drilling a hole all the way through a revolver cylinder. His original invention was for paper cartridges which would all explode in a chain reaction; a terrible idea that never worked. Somehow he got to patent drilling a hole and held back metallic cartridges for several decades. And then he had the audacity to claim making 1.6 million worth today out of drilling a hole was unfair compensation and kept fighting it till 1877. Tbf, S&W made like over 1000 times more out of his own patent, but that's kinda deserved. Patenting obvious stuff was all the rage in the 19th century.
I once saw a US patent for making charcoal by covering smoldering wood with dirt. Stone age technology. Uh, patent office, I think there is a history of prior art.
in Poland we had a lot of full tang swords, around XVII century. (they look a lot like the one with white grips behind Matts head) some of them are quite light, and verry nimble for a cutting sword (main usage beeing dueling "to the first blood" not military combat). More weight in the grip helps to bring center of the mass back toward hilt.
I was under the impression that a lot of those type swords had framed tangs didn't they? I'm probably wrong, but I'm more familiar with that particular style sword to be framed instead of full -tang
There are both types, in my experience framed ones are hevier ones of the "Hungarian" or "Hussar" style, or "Karabela" made for costume use (with gemstones or carved ivory, very decorative) on the other hand "Karabela" made for fighting tends to have full tang, and less decorative but more usefull wooden grip. (mind you im not what you call an expert only an enthusiast, i did see with my eyes some of these sabres, not all of them :D)
Kind of hard to wrap my head around a time when it was less expensive to make a separate piece of iron and forge weld it onto a 30" piece of steel than to just make a 35" piece of steel. Not certain you can even get wrought iron anymore, without pinching it from a railing on an old balcony or bridge. Even if you can, I bet it's a sight more expensive than even tool steel.
Wrought iron is definitely hard to come by. I had a blacksmith tell me he'd had _one_ chance to work with in his career, and it was like "working butter."
It is generally obtained from old ships anchors now. The Bessemer Process killed of the puddling process because it was cheaper to produce mild steel than malleable iron
25 years ago there was a company that was selling bar stock of what I believe they called “ real iron” that was supposed to be wrought iron. I have no experience with it other than seeing at shows. Think it was made in Eastern Europe. I was a professional blacksmith for many years, made mostly antique knives and axes, and have much experience with wrought iron First wrought iron comes in different grades. I’ve used some that was out of fencing, very poor quality and hard to keep from splitting .I usually had to forge weld the stock up before I could use it. I used mostly iron buggy wheels to make my axes and it was good iron. I made some antique restraints and I like to use old furnace pokers and wagon hardware. Wrought iron and good size stock. Wrought iron has to be worked at a higher heat then steel and welds at a higher heat too but is easier to weld then high carbon steel. Can be tricky to weld iron to steel since it’s sort of a compromise in temperature between the two but once you know how you know how. Plenty of wrought iron scrap still out there. I once had to pay $8 for a 5 foot iron furnace poker at a farm auction. Guy comes over and asked me what makes a rusty iron poker worth $8. I told him he sees a rusty poker I see a pair of $500 shackles , $800 slave collar and maybe 3 dough scrappers.
When I tried mild combat with my Toledo swords the handles would get loose and bend at the blade handle junction. When I unscrewed them and saw the little file tang and skinny threads for the ball I was disappointed. Later when I made my first sword there was no doubt it was going to be a full width one piece solid integral handle. It's still solid. There may be more shock transmitted to the hand as there's no give.
There might be some extra handshock with a full-width tang, I imagine? I like it conceptually though, a narrow tang feels off, especially with corners.
It's not like stuff like that happens today. Lego lost it's patents quite long ago, so now they try to hinder competitors by getting design protection on "new"parts. Like they had 1x4 and 1x6 plates for ages, now they tried to protect the radical new design of a 1x5 plate... Even though competitors use those for years already.
Just chiming in with personal preference. I always prefer a messer/katana/chef style full tang. It feels more communicative as to its position, movement, and impacts or feedbacks; which is particularly crucial in food prep where we literally make MILLIONS of real cuts, at speed, under production pressure, in distracting or crowded environments. I've also personally had a few partial or stick tang blades (both knife and sword length) break at or in the tang, as well as a number of them that got rattly and loose and therefor useless. I have broken damaged full tang blades in heavy use, but they never failed in "the sandwich" of the tang, always somewhere else. There is just no substitute for having your hand right on the unified steel of the thing, where you can feel every vibration, every breath of it. The cheaper alternative may cost you at least a digit :)
I don't believe katanas do have a full tang. My own experience is only home cooking but I recently got a decent chef's knife and I have to agree I prefer the idea of a full tang although I've never had a partial tang.
Weren't the Messer Swords (knives) made with a full tang? My career background makes me wince every time I see 'file tang' types of sword and knife handles, like even the famous K-Bar. All the bending action happens right where the tangs start where inconsistent heat treats and notch sensitive steels will more easily fail. When buying fixed knives I seek out the full tang styles. If there are few examples of broken antique swords that falls under the same issue as WWII planes that limped back all shot up, they first wanted to protect those holes, but some bright fellow suggested it would be best in shielding the areas of the damaged planes that didn't make it back because those planes revealed the sad weaknesses. Broken swords would have been recycled back in olden times which erased the manufacturing/design mistakes.
With my knives that do heavy work, I want them full tang. Swords, probably not necessary. However my cold steel cutlass is a good indestructible tool as well as a weapon and its good that it's full tang cause I do lots of crazy things with it like splitting firewood and throwing at wood targets. Thanks for your excellent instruction Matt Cheers 🥂 👍💯
Can you make a video about tridents? Were they used historically? Are they practically feasible? Do tridents have any advantage over spears, swords, poleaxes, etc? It would be great if you can shed light on this.
consider the number of hilts you have had loosen cut testing. More cost efficient for years of heavy use? Also, note that most bayonets have a full tang and are often used a a hammer, prybar or tent peg!
I think the real advantage in the full tang over the stick tang isn’t that the stick tang is more likely to break but that the stick tang is more likely to get loose something I am sure we have all seen on old swords.
Full tangs are inherently stronger, as there is more metal there. Whether or not this is worthwhile is another question. Not speaking of swords, but rather of knives, I really only buy full tang fixed blade knives with the exception of the Mora knives. Even still, I'll always have a Mora and I'll aways have a full tang knife when I go camping or hiking. Any knife can break, but having a tang that's 3/16" thick and only 1/4" tall vs having a tang that's 3/16" thick and the full height of the handle is an obvious discrepancy. I've seen a lot of knives with rat tail tangs break at the tang when abused. I have some Schrade beater knife that's 1/4" thick at the spine and full tang that I've pounded into a tree and jumped on just to see what would happen. The only thing that happened was I needed to beat it out of the tree with the back of my axe because it got stuck.
Hi, Matt. I was wondering if you had looked into 3D scanners, with a view to your documenting antique swords? The quality of scans that it's possible to obtain with reasonably priced equipment is pretty amazing. I can't help thinking that it would streamline the process of your work with The Royal Armouries and Windlass, cutting down the amount of iteration needed. There is also a growing community who would be eager to have any scans of your own collection of antiques, Scan The World, who seek to accumulate a database of publicly available statuary, sculpture and historical artefacts. They already have 18,000 items and are growing all the time. In light of Toby Capwell's recent work on English armour in effigies was made possible by him being the first to fully photographically document many of the effigies concerned. How much better would it be for people studying armour to have access to high quality 3D scans of these effigies, as well as the surviving examples of armour in various collections. Imagine the entirety of The Wallace Collection publicly available as scans! Every detail bar the metallurgy would be so much easier to examine and reproduce.
Seems that would make it easier for people to study and handle objects that most people usually can't. Just think how much material knolage could be saved, accessed, and studied. Much like wittenhaur and like sites have made primary sources more accessable, and in so doing has made history more accessable. The hack on the British Library is tragic in that it made history and knolage less accesable.
Then we could obtain by purchase or deceit the data of the scans then 3-D print them at home with whatever equipment we can afford in a multitude of materials. Even steel? Have I heard of 3-D printers which use metals? Dunno. Seems to me this would be a net financial loss to the sword makers and Deleterious to the legitimate marketplace if just anyone could "counterfeit" exact replicas, likely of poor quality, and pass them off as "identical" ... which they would be. I think it is bad idea overall but especially because piracy of this IP would damage the companies.
@@kaoskronostyche9939 Many of the objects I'm thinking of are in public ownership. Anyone is free to book an appointment to see some of these artifacts in order to study them. Scanning them is completely non-destructive so I'm sure it would be allowable to scan them as part of that study. Those scans then become the property of the person who scanned them and if they are willing to upload those scans to a public database, where is the problem with that? Also, I personally doubt that anyone who has invested in the means to print in metal will be interested in making copies of Windlass' IP, even if the end result would be a useful blade, which is also extremely doubtful. If you can make swords anyway, you can make them to exactly the same proportions as someone else's work, without recourse to 3D scanning, it would just make those interested in studying the proportions and construction of historical examples would find it hugely easier and less expensive to do so. The craftsmanship necessary to make a sword that will be both aesthetically pleasing and functional will not be replaced by any sort of 3D printing technology in the foreseeable future, I don't believe.
@@kaoskronostyche9939 so, I was thinking of study and research, as well as saving data for further study. A replica sword is always a replica sword. It will never be the same as an original. I mean if your worried about neffarious use... it will happen. I was also thinking of effigies, statues, armor pieces, items of material culture for research porposes. Not just swords. I have seen 3d prints, have heard metal can be printed, not sure how it works but am pretty sure you could tell.
@@Suillibhain In many current methods, it is a constant struggle to keep the porosity of 3d metal prints at acceptable levels, and it's a characteristic type of porosity. Some kinds of cheap metal 3d prints often aren't even watertight through solid surfaces. Other methods have less porosity, but that's because the print is infiltrated with a braze alloy. A metal 3d printed counterfeit would be unlikely to fool a casual observer, and it would be a very expensive way to make such an object compared to alternatives, especially due to the print volume required to fit a whole sword.
I think it's more about keeping the tang and the handle fastened together well rather than an actual snap type of break in the iron. It's more likely that nothing will break but the tang will want to separate from the handle.
Question for you. Do you think the grip would be more likely to break off a full width tang? Particularly with harder more brittle material. My katana is a full width tang and I quite like it, but then I’m not heading off to war with it. I do a “fruit salad “ demo at the dojo, and the kids quite like that, along with the bed of nails and concrete block tricks. Thanks, love the channel.
You could thing the tang down while maintaining the full width so the weight may not be so important. Better yet would be to make it sort f a T shape or an I beam shape to use iron more efficiently.
Thanks for this amazing tale. Having worked at SAP and my wife having worked at 3M for years, we are well aware of the current-year practice by engineers of sitting in office to churn out hundreds of patents annually just by putting on minuscule spins on old ideas. Well now it seems this practice goes back more than a century! I do think full width tang can have some benefit, but not with added strength as there has never been an epidemic of swords breaking off at the hidden tang inside a grip. I don't think the added weight (perhaps an ounce or two with the length of the saber grip) may shift the point of balance closer to the hilt somewhat therefore making it a bit quicker and easier to wield. Even though the mass distribution on the blade sans the tang remains the same. But perhaps that's not a great thing for a cavalry sabre as you do need the point of balance to be far away enough from the hilt?
I remember reading that they were not considered necessary, even though you'd think much stronger, I think this was in 'sword collecting' by James Henderson, one of two books on swords in my local library growing up, which does not sound many, but they did have the 'Lonsdale library' series 'big game shooting in Africa' bet you won't find many copies of that in today's libraries.
the thing is to read Reeves' 1853 patent and see what argument was made for it. Some rationale will have been put forward and it might be as slim a justification as you're suggesting. I'd guess the patent would have something to do with the incorporation of a hilt on both ends of the full-width tang, which is the thing that makes it stand out from the kind of full-width tang knives everyone would have been familiar with at the time. Even that might not be sufficient justification perhaps, as you've said there were other swords made with full-width tangs and hilts. Interesting explanation, thanks!
I had an early liege marked 1853 with bent blade at the guard 😮Tang is narrow compared to Mole and Reeves 1853’s. I recall reading that there was complaints of bending early in the Crimea
Can you make a video discussing whips? If they were used in combat, how they evolved, non-combat uses of whips, how the idea of a whip came to be? The only videos about whips that show on search are related to whip swords and Jacques the whipper.
One of the "Alexandria" swords with a very wide blade appeared in a video to have a fairly wide tang with rivetted scales. That said, the whole grip appeared fairly narrow. Not sure if this assembly would have had an additional leather or cloth wrap over it or not.
You are correct that full width tangs have a long history. Messers date to medieval times. That shamshir behind you is a full width tang with scales as well. That's an old design as well.
I wonder a little about the responsiveness of the sword when striking/being struck; feeling the vibrations directly through the tang, rather than through a fully-encircling grip. It will be heavier of course, but the extra weight will be centered directly in your hand (much less of an issue than if the extra weight was in the blade itself). Maybe that's a worthwhile trade-off if you like how the sword acts in your hand during use.
When you encounter them, how often do you see loose handle scales on the patent hilts, vs traditional stick hilts? How expensive to repair would the two have been at the time, in the field? How often does the handle material shrink, leaving the tang proud of the scales? Seems like durability would be the determining factor in which is superior over simple resistance to breaking at the tang. That or handling and balance. Did they lighten the pommel if they used a full tang, or did the center of balance move rearward? I suspect that people at the time had more in mind than just strength if they were going to pay half again for a sword with that feature.
You mentioned swords later transitioning from having an iron tang to being one piece of steel, at that point would the added strength of a full width tang be much more significant since you no longer have the iron's softness?
When you combine it with the "Maltese Cross" guard on the 1885 model there's a lot of mass right at the hand. Makes it feel slower than it actually is, i think; Hard to describe. On the other hand, you feel like you could KO a horse with one punch. In an environment where you're more likely trying to block a rifle stock swinging at your head or parry a bayonet than actually fence...I haven't actually tried to measure but I think the 1853 tang may have some "distal taper" as it goes to the pommel, while the 1885 has constant thickness. Also could be normal variation for mid-late 19th century items made 30 yrs apart by likely different manufacturers.
Hi Matt. You talk a lot about breaking sword, but no disconnected blade from the handle. Do full tang blades have a better structural connexion to the handle ? Maybe more pins, that wouldn't compromise the weapon if one or more of them break ? Maybe those events were not reported, because the breaking were easier to fix ? And about the weight, it's not a bad thing considering the handeling. Thanks for the video and interesting stories (iron bending and the patent).
I wonder what the difference in feel when striking is. Shad cut down trees with his swords and the messer actually hurt to use because of the direct contact between tree, sword and hand. Whereas the katana was the nicest to use because of the hilt construction.
I wonder with FEA analysis for modeling loads and force direcrion with modern materials how some of these designs might look different or maybe very similar today. The tradeoff between types of "strength" versus mass and manueverability is interesting to me.
How robust a tang is depends on manner of damage the blade inflicts & the stress-force that blade will have to resist. A Rapier or a court sword thrust is in line so a solid full width tang is not really needed nor a slashing blade like falchion or scimitar. But a blade with a lot of chop like kurkri or kopis a full width tang is required. I don't mind stalk tangs but when they are square narrow piece that doesn't round in gradually they are often terrible as a stress rider.
I think a lot of modern kitchen knives have it for cost. Cutting blanks out of plate steel and grinding them to shape probably makes a lot of sense in modern mass production.
Since knives don't need guards or other fittings on the handle, they have been cheaper to make with a full width tang for a very long time. That is why they have usually been built that way. Langmesser is literally "long knife". It was created so knife makers could get in on the lucrative sword market without violating laws about who could make swords.
Complete side tangent... Everytime in in the UK, I see Superdry stores, shirts, jackets, etc... Are they a big thing? Good quality? I don't think we have them here in the states. Just curious. Thanks!
Since the hilt was a little heavier, would it not be an opportunity to perhaps make the blade a little longer to return the point of balance forward, thus giving more reach?
How did it effect the balance with the added weight. Where they make them a faster sword with a closer balance point. Lastly, why didn't they make the entire blade, including the full tang, at the same time and only harden/temper the blade portion?
I like a full-width tang but it's not so much about the strength of the metal so much as the handle itself becoming loose etc. Which can still happen, but it feels more robust to me, in fact one could still use the sword even if the scales are cracked.
I think that sword engineering of the german messer was largely an effort to "not have a sword" but have one, therefore it's not a good example of a well engineered sword. I also think that if there was real world gain, it would have been much more commonplace, as people would be winning wars with it. I do also think that there was a practical application ,, it just might not be fencing or cavalry charges. Once it's just a fancy machete , however, then the full width tang might start to really matter. Also, for competition cutting, I can imagine that although not the best performers, but the average performer might get better cuts, as they will have less agility and more brute strength, therefore if cutting a pig carcass,, perhaps many people would feel more energy efficient with a full tang. Swords weren't designed to be as strong as they could be, because they needed to be fast and also if the sword broke but the user was ok that was better than the sword not breaking and the user being injured (cavalry lance type) which would certainly happen if the user hit something that was hard and the sword was the strongest part of the equation. But again, these people at this time were not wanting a fighting weapon, they were wanting big prybar, axe, knife, ultimate tool, and something that you could tell "felt good" when you swung it in the air, like it was strong. All in all I think it's perfectly valid to want a sword that makes a good multitool , because especially today it's just not important that it's the best weapon.
Alas, this is a rather familiar issue to me, so I have far too much to say about it . . . It's worth noting that nearly every modern knife that I can find has a full-tang handle, when it used to actually be *discouraged* by some experts. Ex-SAS survival expert John "Lofty" Wiseman, for example, still recommends a sheath knife with thru-tang construction, on the grounds that you're less likely to get blisters from using it heavily, something that seems to have been true until modern manufacturing methods made for more ergonomic handles with full-tang knives. So in the first place, it occurs to me that one reason that these handles might have called from favor is DISCOMFORT. In the second place, the full-tang swords' unique method of manufacture could have interfered with re-hilting (which you've pointed out was very common), because the tangs of the swords would have had to be made differently from thru-tang swords, rendering them incompatible with other hilts. Therefore, we have an invention probably too far ahead of its time and it available technology/materials to be practical, and which was phased out in the interests of ergonomics (i.e. comfort in the hand) and economics (i.e. re-hilting old blades).
Yes, and many Bronze Age knives and daggers had it too. If you go back to knapped flint daggers, you could even argue the full width tang predates the stick tang.
Langes messer are definitively swords, just like katana are definitely swords. Messer, falchions, and hangers are really the same type of sword in different countries with some differences in hilt construction.@@stefthorman8548
I think the balance of the blade is worth serious consideration. In our modern era, where swords are used more for sport and ceremony rather than combat, I do see the full tang's irrelevance. However, a re-invention of the sword for 'modern' combat manufacturing costs are reduced by enhanced simimplicy of design and CNC machining. I know today's varied 'combat' swords would never be as sexy as a 19th century calvary sword... but, well, firearms took over and most folks out there in the world do not realize the old school ways work for real reasons. Sometimes it's grin to be an old man. We know stuff. 😎🤙
FYI. In the US Military the Enlisted have to pay for their uniforms also. They take it out of your pay from your initial pay. Then you get a maintenance pay to maintain your uniforms. Usually not enough per year to pay for a pair of utilities uniform. Not even going to mention the boots. Times have changed. 😁
As a martial artist, (not necessarily as a collector), would you prefer a patent tang over a std if you had the opportunity to buy one of 2 similar swords?
I guess yes, why not. You might not gain much in reality with a patent hilt, but you don't really lose anything either. Maybe some people preferred the shape of a standard grip, I can see that being the case.
As with all things, there are pros and cons. Unrelated, but I'm looking to get a reproduction of a Union Cavalryman's uniform, if you could point me to a good place to get one. I'm specifically trying for the 3rd Indiana Cavalry Regiment (East Wing) / 45th Indiana Volunteers
I'm more of a viking sword kind of guy. But I prefer a knife and a staff/stick/club, as that passes the inspections (you wouldn't part, etc.) Right now I love a snow shovel. It's going to snow, again, up here in Sweden.... The milder climate of the UK would be good. Yes, the milder climate.
So this full tang sword came out about a year after Japan opened up? Quite the coincidence, LOL! Anyway, I’m sure Europe has seen lots of full tang blades too.
So A Wilkson saber really, is just a big knife ey? lol. Amazing he got a patent for that. I've read a handful of historic accounts where the handle is the point of failure such as a break in the Tang... but more often I hear it from blades that only have a 'rat tail' or essentially a woefully insufficiently thin bar for the tang, often spot welded, which snaps and sends the blade flying. That said, even if you had a cleaver or a big knife with a full width tang... use it wrong on the wrong bit of wood (such as belaying) during camping and you can be out of a knife. Which is always impressive to see since a hatchet rarely suffers the same fate.
I wonder why the "full tang" sword every came about at all, since for hundreds if not thousands of years narrow tangs had served, under the most arduous of service, quite well.
Could the patent thing be some sort of "administrative error"? I mean that maybe it was supposed to be a patent for the full width tang applied to these swords specifically but at some point someone turned into the full width tang itself. It's not uncommon to see such things when someone has to deal with documents on an administrative level but has zero knowledge of the theme de documents are about. I'm a sculptor and since I started my studies I've seen countless administrative-made documents that made zero sense from the point of view of someone working on a sculptor's workshop. Even in art school, where you should assume there should be at least some understanding of what the school does, sometimes the documents had to be redone because the administrative workers of the school didn't get what the document was for. Of course, it could just have been one of those cases where the patent was granted even though it was ridiculous (it happened then, it happens now and it will happen in the future), but I can also see someone working at the patent office being like "okay, so this guy wants a patent for this kind of hilt" without even understanding that the important part was that it was being applied to a new type of sword.
This isn’t about sword handles but is important. Since 1974 I have abused my hollow handled knife with no issues. I had to buy a new one because of age and steel thickness due to sharping but the brass/copper handle never failed me. And no I do not know the metal used for the handle. People over think too much about their tool of choice. My opinion is just this. Pick what you like.
Perhaps only a few cases where swords were used heavily enough to break at the tang... I suppose one could argue, one case would be one too many, if the one holding the broken tang sword was you...
Not sure how it was back then, but today as an officer you get some money to buy your stuff, and you can even make some profit if you buy 2nd hand. Just need to find someone who's leaving and is your height and body build. Also the enlisted probably had their rack number weapon to encourage caring for it.
Patent agents read patents the way most people read newspapers - from the back. What you need to look at is the claims. Reeves must have had something new, no matter how small, or he'd have been done for a false claim to a monopoly.
If officers could get non-regulation swords (or keep using swords that were no longer regulation), then what precisely is the purpose of regulation patterns? Why were militaries putting so much effort into developing new sword patterns every few years?
I think the fact that millions of swords that people depended on for thousands of years didn't have full width tangs suggests it's probably not necessary for a fighting sword.
Vety interesting - I guess nobody is cutting trees down with cavalry sabres so an iron rat tail? tang is fine....and the much thinner blade material would give up first anyway. Just a gimmick.... but a one piece steel full tang is a good thing.
I actually think this is great example of the current "full tang or it's not a real blade" mentality. Full length? Full width? Many fully functional historical swords have done just great without either, because of their design, construction, and how they were used. Historic weapon users cared about what worked, not what sounded impressive, and that these were as much made as a sales gimmick as any benefit makes total sense in context. At this point standard Chinese made, often quite decent, katanas are almost all advertised as "full tang" because it needs to say that to sell them, while they're clearly neither full length nor width 99% of the time. All a tang really needs to do is properly secure the blade through its intended use. Sometimes thinner hidden tangs actually make swords feel better, and any number of historic examples of such, were you to photoshop on a modern ugly display blade, would immediately get responses saying that the tang is useless and the sword unusable.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
I can't see how a full length, steel tang is ever a bad thing. It's something you're trusting your life to. If the only downside is the cost, then as Fergie said: "if you ain't got no money, take yo broke ass home".
as for getting the patent, you can get patents for using an old idea in a new way, though i would object based on obviousness - though if it was indeed the only cavalry sword with a full width tang, and no other specifically cavalry swords were known, I could see a patent being granted. (patent examiner)
Please do a video on this th-cam.com/users/clipUgkxCPUbFX5AKUq2o2V2XH92EkfZUXxeRQOB how to fight oponits of different sizes to you how would you fight in inclosed space like a ship or a house And one on if a morning star turned into a flail.. If 2 bladed sword had 1 blade (same handle how dose it change fighting) and a baionet for a crossbow, mabey it could dig like a shovel if you put it on the foot rest or mabey dress in a traditional lady's dress and see how restricted it is in combat... how to fight in cramped quqters like a house or a ship (see how combat changes) one on paudrines (sorry for spelling) how would combat be effected by water? (like fighting in or under water) some videos on Egyptian wepons or Babylon, persan, sumerion, ect from pre hellenistic, mabey even Korean wepons, or wepons from Thailand, veitnam, a some Chinese, Australia, Pacific countries (including aotroa) (please learn the pronounceations)
Patenting the knife hilt is such a 19th century thing...
drilling all the way through any piece of metal with a barrel: breechloader
drilling all the way through a cylinder with a barrel: omg, completely new invention! it's... revolutionary!
@@jesuizanmich
You have potential as a patent attorney 😉
@@klarname_online9356 yea, pretty weird Rollin White was allowed to patent drilling a hole all the way through a revolver cylinder.
His original invention was for paper cartridges which would all explode in a chain reaction; a terrible idea that never worked. Somehow he got to patent drilling a hole and held back metallic cartridges for several decades.
And then he had the audacity to claim making 1.6 million worth today out of drilling a hole was unfair compensation and kept fighting it till 1877. Tbf, S&W made like over 1000 times more out of his own patent, but that's kinda deserved.
Patenting obvious stuff was all the rage in the 19th century.
@@jesuizanmich And, if I recall correctly, the concept already existed in Europe.
@jesuizanmich 19th century was for sure bad. Reynolds technologies still technically owns the patent on butted tubing..... like 100 years later.
I once saw a US patent for making charcoal by covering smoldering wood with dirt. Stone age technology. Uh, patent office, I think there is a history of prior art.
in Poland we had a lot of full tang swords, around XVII century. (they look a lot like the one with white grips behind Matts head) some of them are quite light, and verry nimble for a cutting sword (main usage beeing dueling "to the first blood" not military combat). More weight in the grip helps to bring center of the mass back toward hilt.
I was under the impression that a lot of those type swords had framed tangs didn't they? I'm probably wrong, but I'm more familiar with that particular style sword to be framed instead of full -tang
There are both types, in my experience framed ones are hevier ones of the "Hungarian" or "Hussar" style, or "Karabela" made for costume use (with gemstones or carved ivory, very decorative) on the other hand "Karabela" made for fighting tends to have full tang, and less decorative but more usefull wooden grip. (mind you im not what you call an expert only an enthusiast, i did see with my eyes some of these sabres, not all of them :D)
Excellent. You answered a question that's rattled around in my mind for years. So interesting.
Kind of hard to wrap my head around a time when it was less expensive to make a separate piece of iron and forge weld it onto a 30" piece of steel than to just make a 35" piece of steel. Not certain you can even get wrought iron anymore, without pinching it from a railing on an old balcony or bridge. Even if you can, I bet it's a sight more expensive than even tool steel.
Wrought iron is definitely hard to come by. I had a blacksmith tell me he'd had _one_ chance to work with in his career, and it was like "working butter."
It is generally obtained from old ships anchors now. The Bessemer Process killed of the puddling process because it was cheaper to produce mild steel than malleable iron
25 years ago there was a company that was selling bar stock of what I believe they called “ real iron” that was supposed to be wrought iron. I have no experience with it other than seeing at shows. Think it was made in Eastern Europe.
I was a professional blacksmith for many years, made mostly antique knives and axes, and have much experience with wrought iron
First wrought iron comes in different grades. I’ve used some that was out of fencing, very poor quality and hard to keep from splitting .I usually had to forge weld the stock up before I could use it.
I used mostly iron buggy wheels to make my axes and it was good iron.
I made some antique restraints and I like to use old furnace pokers and wagon hardware. Wrought iron and good size stock.
Wrought iron has to be worked at a higher heat then steel and welds at a higher heat too but is easier to weld then high carbon steel. Can be tricky to weld iron to steel since it’s sort of a compromise in temperature between the two but once you know how you know how.
Plenty of wrought iron scrap still out there.
I once had to pay $8 for a 5 foot iron furnace poker at a farm auction. Guy comes over and asked me what makes a rusty iron poker worth $8.
I told him he sees a rusty poker I see a pair of $500 shackles , $800 slave collar and maybe 3 dough scrappers.
Like Matt said there was also a mecanical advantage in having the tang not made of high carbon steel.
@@deadhorse1391 Slave collar? Where do you work, Yemen, Libya?
When I tried mild combat with my Toledo swords the handles would get loose and bend at the blade handle junction.
When I unscrewed them and saw the little file tang and skinny threads for the ball I was disappointed.
Later when I made my first sword there was no doubt it was going to be a full width one piece solid integral handle.
It's still solid.
There may be more shock transmitted to the hand as there's no give.
There might be some extra handshock with a full-width tang, I imagine? I like it conceptually though, a narrow tang feels off, especially with corners.
Sounds like Reeves knew someone in the Patent Office and/or got them drunk one evening.... 🍻 🤣
Another great and informative video. Cheers, Matt!
It's not like stuff like that happens today.
Lego lost it's patents quite long ago, so now they try to hinder competitors by getting design protection on "new"parts. Like they had 1x4 and 1x6 plates for ages, now they tried to protect the radical new design of a 1x5 plate... Even though competitors use those for years already.
Just chiming in with personal preference. I always prefer a messer/katana/chef style full tang. It feels more communicative as to its position, movement, and impacts or feedbacks; which is particularly crucial in food prep where we literally make MILLIONS of real cuts, at speed, under production pressure, in distracting or crowded environments. I've also personally had a few partial or stick tang blades (both knife and sword length) break at or in the tang, as well as a number of them that got rattly and loose and therefor useless. I have broken damaged full tang blades in heavy use, but they never failed in "the sandwich" of the tang, always somewhere else.
There is just no substitute for having your hand right on the unified steel of the thing, where you can feel every vibration, every breath of it. The cheaper alternative may cost you at least a digit :)
I don't believe katanas do have a full tang. My own experience is only home cooking but I recently got a decent chef's knife and I have to agree I prefer the idea of a full tang although I've never had a partial tang.
I can absolutely see that in cooking how a full tang would be more preferable over a normal tang.
Weren't the Messer Swords (knives) made with a full tang? My career background makes me wince every time I see 'file tang' types of sword and knife handles, like even the famous K-Bar. All the bending action happens right where the tangs start where inconsistent heat treats and notch sensitive steels will more easily fail. When buying fixed knives I seek out the full tang styles. If there are few examples of broken antique swords that falls under the same issue as WWII planes that limped back all shot up, they first wanted to protect those holes, but some bright fellow suggested it would be best in shielding the areas of the damaged planes that didn't make it back because those planes revealed the sad weaknesses. Broken swords would have been recycled back in olden times which erased the manufacturing/design mistakes.
With my knives that do heavy work, I want them full tang. Swords, probably not necessary. However my cold steel cutlass is a good indestructible tool as well as a weapon and its good that it's full tang cause I do lots of crazy things with it like splitting firewood and throwing at wood targets. Thanks for your excellent instruction Matt Cheers 🥂 👍💯
Can you make a video about tridents? Were they used historically? Are they practically feasible? Do tridents have any advantage over spears, swords, poleaxes, etc? It would be great if you can shed light on this.
consider the number of hilts you have had loosen cut testing. More cost efficient for years of heavy use? Also, note that most bayonets have a full tang and are often used a a hammer, prybar or tent peg!
I think the real advantage in the full tang over the stick tang isn’t that the stick tang is more likely to break but that the stick tang is more likely to get loose something I am sure we have all seen on old swords.
Full tangs are inherently stronger, as there is more metal there. Whether or not this is worthwhile is another question. Not speaking of swords, but rather of knives, I really only buy full tang fixed blade knives with the exception of the Mora knives. Even still, I'll always have a Mora and I'll aways have a full tang knife when I go camping or hiking. Any knife can break, but having a tang that's 3/16" thick and only 1/4" tall vs having a tang that's 3/16" thick and the full height of the handle is an obvious discrepancy. I've seen a lot of knives with rat tail tangs break at the tang when abused. I have some Schrade beater knife that's 1/4" thick at the spine and full tang that I've pounded into a tree and jumped on just to see what would happen. The only thing that happened was I needed to beat it out of the tree with the back of my axe because it got stuck.
Does anyone know if the feel in the hand is different when hitting things with a full tang? More or less vibration, etc
Hi, Matt. I was wondering if you had looked into 3D scanners, with a view to your documenting antique swords? The quality of scans that it's possible to obtain with reasonably priced equipment is pretty amazing. I can't help thinking that it would streamline the process of your work with The Royal Armouries and Windlass, cutting down the amount of iteration needed. There is also a growing community who would be eager to have any scans of your own collection of antiques, Scan The World, who seek to accumulate a database of publicly available statuary, sculpture and historical artefacts. They already have 18,000 items and are growing all the time.
In light of Toby Capwell's recent work on English armour in effigies was made possible by him being the first to fully photographically document many of the effigies concerned. How much better would it be for people studying armour to have access to high quality 3D scans of these effigies, as well as the surviving examples of armour in various collections. Imagine the entirety of The Wallace Collection publicly available as scans! Every detail bar the metallurgy would be so much easier to examine and reproduce.
Seems that would make it easier for people to study and handle objects that most people usually can't. Just think how much material knolage could be saved, accessed, and studied. Much like wittenhaur and like sites have made primary sources more accessable, and in so doing has made history more accessable.
The hack on the British Library is tragic in that it made history and knolage less accesable.
Then we could obtain by purchase or deceit the data of the scans then 3-D print them at home with whatever equipment we can afford in a multitude of materials. Even steel? Have I heard of 3-D printers which use metals? Dunno. Seems to me this would be a net financial loss to the sword makers and Deleterious to the legitimate marketplace if just anyone could "counterfeit" exact replicas, likely of poor quality, and pass them off as "identical" ... which they would be. I think it is bad idea overall but especially because piracy of this IP would damage the companies.
@@kaoskronostyche9939 Many of the objects I'm thinking of are in public ownership. Anyone is free to book an appointment to see some of these artifacts in order to study them. Scanning them is completely non-destructive so I'm sure it would be allowable to scan them as part of that study. Those scans then become the property of the person who scanned them and if they are willing to upload those scans to a public database, where is the problem with that?
Also, I personally doubt that anyone who has invested in the means to print in metal will be interested in making copies of Windlass' IP, even if the end result would be a useful blade, which is also extremely doubtful.
If you can make swords anyway, you can make them to exactly the same proportions as someone else's work, without recourse to 3D scanning, it would just make those interested in studying the proportions and construction of historical examples would find it hugely easier and less expensive to do so. The craftsmanship necessary to make a sword that will be both aesthetically pleasing and functional will not be replaced by any sort of 3D printing technology in the foreseeable future, I don't believe.
@@kaoskronostyche9939 so, I was thinking of study and research, as well as saving data for further study. A replica sword is always a replica sword. It will never be the same as an original. I mean if your worried about neffarious use... it will happen. I was also thinking of effigies, statues, armor pieces, items of material culture for research porposes. Not just swords.
I have seen 3d prints, have heard metal can be printed, not sure how it works but am pretty sure you could tell.
@@Suillibhain In many current methods, it is a constant struggle to keep the porosity of 3d metal prints at acceptable levels, and it's a characteristic type of porosity. Some kinds of cheap metal 3d prints often aren't even watertight through solid surfaces. Other methods have less porosity, but that's because the print is infiltrated with a braze alloy. A metal 3d printed counterfeit would be unlikely to fool a casual observer, and it would be a very expensive way to make such an object compared to alternatives, especially due to the print volume required to fit a whole sword.
Full width tang handle, in varying climates, will stay tight better than a rod tang. I can see this being useful in India, or anywhere in the tropics.
I've wondered about that. Thank you.
I think it's more about keeping the tang and the handle fastened together well rather than an actual snap type of break in the iron. It's more likely that nothing will break but the tang will want to separate from the handle.
Question for you. Do you think the grip would be more likely to break off a full width tang? Particularly with harder more brittle material. My katana is a full width tang and I quite like it, but then I’m not heading off to war with it. I do a “fruit salad “ demo at the dojo, and the kids quite like that, along with the bed of nails and concrete block tricks. Thanks, love the channel.
You could thing the tang down while maintaining the full width so the weight may not be so important. Better yet would be to make it sort f a T shape or an I beam shape to use iron more efficiently.
Does the exposed parts of the full width tang RUST in contact with the hand ?
It can do, but regular handling actually prevents it
The guy I learned how to make knives from called full width tangs "slab handles", it's definitely the style i make the most.
Thanks for this amazing tale. Having worked at SAP and my wife having worked at 3M for years, we are well aware of the current-year practice by engineers of sitting in office to churn out hundreds of patents annually just by putting on minuscule spins on old ideas. Well now it seems this practice goes back more than a century!
I do think full width tang can have some benefit, but not with added strength as there has never been an epidemic of swords breaking off at the hidden tang inside a grip. I don't think the added weight (perhaps an ounce or two with the length of the saber grip) may shift the point of balance closer to the hilt somewhat therefore making it a bit quicker and easier to wield. Even though the mass distribution on the blade sans the tang remains the same. But perhaps that's not a great thing for a cavalry sabre as you do need the point of balance to be far away enough from the hilt?
I remember reading that they were not considered necessary, even though you'd think much stronger, I think this was in 'sword collecting' by James Henderson, one of two books on swords in my local library growing up, which does not sound many, but they did have the 'Lonsdale library' series 'big game shooting in Africa' bet you won't find many copies of that in today's libraries.
the thing is to read Reeves' 1853 patent and see what argument was made for it. Some rationale will have been put forward and it might be as slim a justification as you're suggesting. I'd guess the patent would have something to do with the incorporation of a hilt on both ends of the full-width tang, which is the thing that makes it stand out from the kind of full-width tang knives everyone would have been familiar with at the time. Even that might not be sufficient justification perhaps, as you've said there were other swords made with full-width tangs and hilts. Interesting explanation, thanks!
I had an early liege marked 1853 with bent blade at the guard 😮Tang is narrow compared to Mole and Reeves 1853’s. I recall reading that there was complaints of bending early in the Crimea
Thanks for the video
Can you make a video discussing whips? If they were used in combat, how they evolved, non-combat uses of whips, how the idea of a whip came to be?
The only videos about whips that show on search are related to whip swords and Jacques the whipper.
One of the "Alexandria" swords with a very wide blade appeared in a video to have a fairly wide tang with rivetted scales. That said, the whole grip appeared fairly narrow. Not sure if this assembly would have had an additional leather or cloth wrap over it or not.
You are correct that full width tangs have a long history. Messers date to medieval times. That shamshir behind you is a full width tang with scales as well. That's an old design as well.
Would a full tang tend to be more or less jarring on strikes? Or is it impossible to generalize?
I wonder a little about the responsiveness of the sword when striking/being struck; feeling the vibrations directly through the tang, rather than through a fully-encircling grip. It will be heavier of course, but the extra weight will be centered directly in your hand (much less of an issue than if the extra weight was in the blade itself). Maybe that's a worthwhile trade-off if you like how the sword acts in your hand during use.
When you encounter them, how often do you see loose handle scales on the patent hilts, vs traditional stick hilts? How expensive to repair would the two have been at the time, in the field? How often does the handle material shrink, leaving the tang proud of the scales? Seems like durability would be the determining factor in which is superior over simple resistance to breaking at the tang. That or handling and balance. Did they lighten the pommel if they used a full tang, or did the center of balance move rearward? I suspect that people at the time had more in mind than just strength if they were going to pay half again for a sword with that feature.
You mentioned swords later transitioning from having an iron tang to being one piece of steel, at that point would the added strength of a full width tang be much more significant since you no longer have the iron's softness?
You get a stronger weird with a longer weird so it has more to hold on to at the joining point.
When you combine it with the "Maltese Cross" guard on the 1885 model there's a lot of mass right at the hand. Makes it feel slower than it actually is, i think; Hard to describe. On the other hand, you feel like you could KO a horse with one punch. In an environment where you're more likely trying to block a rifle stock swinging at your head or parry a bayonet than actually fence...I haven't actually tried to measure but I think the 1853 tang may have some "distal taper" as it goes to the pommel, while the 1885 has constant thickness. Also could be normal variation for mid-late 19th century items made 30 yrs apart by likely different manufacturers.
Hi Matt.
You talk a lot about breaking sword, but no disconnected blade from the handle.
Do full tang blades have a better structural connexion to the handle ?
Maybe more pins, that wouldn't compromise the weapon if one or more of them break ?
Maybe those events were not reported, because the breaking were easier to fix ?
And about the weight, it's not a bad thing considering the handeling.
Thanks for the video and interesting stories (iron bending and the patent).
I wonder what the difference in feel when striking is. Shad cut down trees with his swords and the messer actually hurt to use because of the direct contact between tree, sword and hand. Whereas the katana was the nicest to use because of the hilt construction.
I wonder with FEA analysis for modeling loads and force direcrion with modern materials how some of these designs might look different or maybe very similar today. The tradeoff between types of "strength" versus mass and manueverability is interesting to me.
Please do a video on the diffrence in strength if brass saber hilts v. Steel, where brass just good enough to pass or good in their own right?!
Could one count a Japanese Sword as a nearly full width Tang? In comparison to many other swords the tang is usually nearly as wide as the blade.
It is a type of stick tang; the tang is not even close to the edges of the handle
How robust a tang is depends on manner of damage the blade inflicts & the stress-force that blade will have to resist.
A Rapier or a court sword thrust is in line so a solid full width tang is not really needed nor a slashing blade like falchion or scimitar.
But a blade with a lot of chop like kurkri or kopis a full width tang is required.
I don't mind stalk tangs but when they are square narrow piece that doesn't round in gradually they are often terrible as a stress rider.
Looking behind you (on the wall) - I was wondering (if you don't handle them) how often do you oil swords?
I think a lot of modern kitchen knives have it for cost. Cutting blanks out of plate steel and grinding them to shape probably makes a lot of sense in modern mass production.
Since knives don't need guards or other fittings on the handle, they have been cheaper to make with a full width tang for a very long time. That is why they have usually been built that way.
Langmesser is literally "long knife". It was created so knife makers could get in on the lucrative sword market without violating laws about who could make swords.
Complete side tangent... Everytime in in the UK, I see Superdry stores, shirts, jackets, etc... Are they a big thing? Good quality? I don't think we have them here in the states. Just curious. Thanks!
Since the hilt was a little heavier, would it not be an opportunity to perhaps make the blade a little longer to return the point of balance forward, thus giving more reach?
How did it effect the balance with the added weight. Where they make them a faster sword with a closer balance point. Lastly, why didn't they make the entire blade, including the full tang, at the same time and only harden/temper the blade portion?
Hey matt once a sword has been peened can it be un-peened to replace the grip or guard
Point of balance any different to other swords of similar length ?
more mass in the handle, point of balance closer to the hand.
I like a full-width tang but it's not so much about the strength of the metal so much as the handle itself becoming loose etc. Which can still happen, but it feels more robust to me, in fact one could still use the sword even if the scales are cracked.
Did these exist in an Infantry NCO/Officer design?
I think that sword engineering of the german messer was largely an effort to "not have a sword" but have one, therefore it's not a good example of a well engineered sword. I also think that if there was real world gain, it would have been much more commonplace, as people would be winning wars with it. I do also think that there was a practical application ,, it just might not be fencing or cavalry charges. Once it's just a fancy machete , however, then the full width tang might start to really matter. Also, for competition cutting, I can imagine that although not the best performers, but the average performer might get better cuts, as they will have less agility and more brute strength, therefore if cutting a pig carcass,, perhaps many people would feel more energy efficient with a full tang. Swords weren't designed to be as strong as they could be, because they needed to be fast and also if the sword broke but the user was ok that was better than the sword not breaking and the user being injured (cavalry lance type) which would certainly happen if the user hit something that was hard and the sword was the strongest part of the equation. But again, these people at this time were not wanting a fighting weapon, they were wanting big prybar, axe, knife, ultimate tool, and something that you could tell "felt good" when you swung it in the air, like it was strong. All in all I think it's perfectly valid to want a sword that makes a good multitool , because especially today it's just not important that it's the best weapon.
Double the price for a full tang?! Outrageous!
Alas, this is a rather familiar issue to me, so I have far too much to say about it . . .
It's worth noting that nearly every modern knife that I can find has a full-tang handle, when it used to actually be *discouraged* by some experts. Ex-SAS survival expert John "Lofty" Wiseman, for example, still recommends a sheath knife with thru-tang construction, on the grounds that you're less likely to get blisters from using it heavily, something that seems to have been true until modern manufacturing methods made for more ergonomic handles with full-tang knives. So in the first place, it occurs to me that one reason that these handles might have called from favor is DISCOMFORT.
In the second place, the full-tang swords' unique method of manufacture could have interfered with re-hilting (which you've pointed out was very common), because the tangs of the swords would have had to be made differently from thru-tang swords, rendering them incompatible with other hilts.
Therefore, we have an invention probably too far ahead of its time and it available technology/materials to be practical, and which was phased out in the interests of ergonomics (i.e. comfort in the hand) and economics (i.e. re-hilting old blades).
Didn't medieval messer have full width tangs? Or any other knife for that matter? How did they patent this?
Welcome to Victorian era Britain.
Yes, and many Bronze Age knives and daggers had it too. If you go back to knapped flint daggers, you could even argue the full width tang predates the stick tang.
messers aren't swords, like how machetes aren't swords
Langes messer are definitively swords, just like katana are definitely swords. Messer, falchions, and hangers are really the same type of sword in different countries with some differences in hilt construction.@@stefthorman8548
I think the balance of the blade is worth serious consideration. In our modern era, where swords are used more for sport and ceremony rather than combat, I do see the full tang's irrelevance.
However, a re-invention of the sword for 'modern' combat manufacturing costs are reduced by enhanced simimplicy of design and CNC machining.
I know today's varied 'combat' swords would never be as sexy as a 19th century calvary sword... but, well, firearms took over and most folks out there in the world do not realize the old school ways work for real reasons.
Sometimes it's grin to be an old man. We know stuff. 😎🤙
So lovely.
FYI. In the US Military the Enlisted have to pay for their uniforms also. They take it out of your pay from your initial pay. Then you get a maintenance pay to maintain your uniforms. Usually not enough per year to pay for a pair of utilities uniform. Not even going to mention the boots. Times have changed. 😁
As a martial artist, (not necessarily as a collector), would you prefer a patent tang over a std if you had the opportunity to buy one of 2 similar swords?
I guess yes, why not. You might not gain much in reality with a patent hilt, but you don't really lose anything either. Maybe some people preferred the shape of a standard grip, I can see that being the case.
Wouldn't a full width tang also pull the point of balance back somewhat?
As with all things, there are pros and cons.
Unrelated, but I'm looking to get a reproduction of a Union Cavalryman's uniform, if you could point me to a good place to get one.
I'm specifically trying for the 3rd Indiana Cavalry Regiment (East Wing) / 45th Indiana Volunteers
I'm more of a viking sword kind of guy. But I prefer a knife and a staff/stick/club, as that passes the inspections (you wouldn't part, etc.)
Right now I love a snow shovel. It's going to snow, again, up here in Sweden.... The milder climate of the UK would be good. Yes, the milder climate.
Is the Osborn Gunby 1796 full width tang? I'd be kind of inclined to assume it isn't.
So this full tang sword came out about a year after Japan opened up? Quite the coincidence, LOL! Anyway, I’m sure Europe has seen lots of full tang blades too.
Hold on, what, the old tangs were welded on?!
Crikey.
iron is better for tangs than full steel, full steel tangs are cringy and snaps like an crisp apple
So A Wilkson saber really, is just a big knife ey? lol. Amazing he got a patent for that.
I've read a handful of historic accounts where the handle is the point of failure such as a break in the Tang... but more often I hear it from blades that only have a 'rat tail' or essentially a woefully insufficiently thin bar for the tang, often spot welded, which snaps and sends the blade flying.
That said, even if you had a cleaver or a big knife with a full width tang... use it wrong on the wrong bit of wood (such as belaying) during camping and you can be out of a knife. Which is always impressive to see since a hatchet rarely suffers the same fate.
I wonder why the "full tang" sword every came about at all, since for hundreds if not thousands of years narrow tangs had served, under the most arduous of service, quite well.
Full width would transfer more impact shock to the hand.
Could the patent thing be some sort of "administrative error"? I mean that maybe it was supposed to be a patent for the full width tang applied to these swords specifically but at some point someone turned into the full width tang itself.
It's not uncommon to see such things when someone has to deal with documents on an administrative level but has zero knowledge of the theme de documents are about. I'm a sculptor and since I started my studies I've seen countless administrative-made documents that made zero sense from the point of view of someone working on a sculptor's workshop. Even in art school, where you should assume there should be at least some understanding of what the school does, sometimes the documents had to be redone because the administrative workers of the school didn't get what the document was for.
Of course, it could just have been one of those cases where the patent was granted even though it was ridiculous (it happened then, it happens now and it will happen in the future), but I can also see someone working at the patent office being like "okay, so this guy wants a patent for this kind of hilt" without even understanding that the important part was that it was being applied to a new type of sword.
Maybe it's only a strength advantage on modern swords that don't have a separate iron tang.
I was going to ask what grip material that was. Were some actual horn? Edit... Oh, you answered that lol...
For certain knives I would definitely want a full width tang. For a sword, probably not worth the extra cost.
this type of hilt would have been even more beneficial if you can bushcraft with these swords also using them as tools
This isn’t about sword handles but is important. Since 1974 I have abused my hollow handled knife with no issues. I had to buy a new one because of age and steel thickness due to sharping but the brass/copper handle never failed me. And no I do not know the metal used for the handle. People over think too much about their tool of choice. My opinion is just this. Pick what you like.
Perhaps only a few cases where swords were used heavily enough to break at the tang... I suppose one could argue, one case would be one too many, if the one holding the broken tang sword was you...
Not sure how it was back then, but today as an officer you get some money to buy your stuff, and you can even make some profit if you buy 2nd hand. Just need to find someone who's leaving and is your height and body build. Also the enlisted probably had their rack number weapon to encourage caring for it.
Full width tang: Is it enough of a difference to MAKE a difference? You be the judge. --Paul Harrell (in my mind) 😊
Patent agents read patents the way most people read newspapers - from the back. What you need to look at is the claims. Reeves must have had something new, no matter how small, or he'd have been done for a false claim to a monopoly.
If officers could get non-regulation swords (or keep using swords that were no longer regulation), then what precisely is the purpose of regulation patterns? Why were militaries putting so much effort into developing new sword patterns every few years?
Almost as if they've never seen a "langes messer"... 😂
At least RN officers had prize money... 😅
Interesting aside, large numbers of the Model 1853 were imported by the Confederacy during the American Civil War.
Yes, and British rifles were sold to both sides
Yes, and British rifles were sold to both sides
If it were not patented could a patent not be legitimately be applied for? All should have a full length patent of one piece with the blade.
So it's a fancy Messer
I think the fact that millions of swords that people depended on for thousands of years didn't have full width tangs suggests it's probably not necessary for a fighting sword.
Vety interesting - I guess nobody is cutting trees down with cavalry sabres so an iron rat tail? tang is fine....and the much thinner blade material would give up first anyway.
Just a gimmick.... but a one piece steel full tang is a good thing.
not really, steel tangs are weak, and unreliable, iron tangs are the way to go
patenting that feels like patenting the wheel
no, it would be like patenting the train wheel, remember, swords didn't have full tangs, only "long knifes" had them
@@stefthorman8548 i have to say personally a long knife is very much sword like
Make a small change and herald it as a major change - 'new and improved'! Marketing hasn't changed much either, i guess.
I actually think this is great example of the current "full tang or it's not a real blade" mentality.
Full length? Full width? Many fully functional historical swords have done just great without either, because of their design, construction, and how they were used. Historic weapon users cared about what worked, not what sounded impressive, and that these were as much made as a sales gimmick as any benefit makes total sense in context.
At this point standard Chinese made, often quite decent, katanas are almost all advertised as "full tang" because it needs to say that to sell them, while they're clearly neither full length nor width 99% of the time.
All a tang really needs to do is properly secure the blade through its intended use. Sometimes thinner hidden tangs actually make swords feel better, and any number of historic examples of such, were you to photoshop on a modern ugly display blade, would immediately get responses saying that the tang is useless and the sword unusable.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
That mentality is essentially an holdover from crap ton and f otherwise functional looking swords turning to be wall hangers cus the tang is thin piece of steel just spit wielded on ten plus years ago.
I can't see how a full length, steel tang is ever a bad thing. It's something you're trusting your life to. If the only downside is the cost, then as Fergie said: "if you ain't got no money, take yo broke ass home".
as for getting the patent, you can get patents for using an old idea in a new way, though i would object based on obviousness - though if it was indeed the only cavalry sword with a full width tang, and no other specifically cavalry swords were known, I could see a patent being granted. (patent examiner)
what do officers have to buy these days
Please do a video on this
th-cam.com/users/clipUgkxCPUbFX5AKUq2o2V2XH92EkfZUXxeRQOB
how to fight oponits of different sizes to you
how would you fight in inclosed space like a ship or a house
And one on if a morning star turned into a flail..
If 2 bladed sword had 1 blade (same handle how dose it change fighting)
and a baionet for a crossbow, mabey it could dig like a shovel if you put it on the foot rest
or mabey dress in a traditional lady's dress and see how restricted it is in combat...
how to fight in cramped quqters like a house or a ship (see how combat changes)
one on paudrines (sorry for spelling)
how would combat be effected by water? (like fighting in or under water)
some videos on Egyptian wepons or Babylon, persan, sumerion, ect from pre hellenistic,
mabey even Korean wepons, or wepons from Thailand, veitnam, a some Chinese, Australia, Pacific countries (including aotroa) (please learn the pronounceations)
It's still funny to me to call metal, especially iron, soft ^^
You should test this sword, Matt: th-cam.com/users/shortsaBBE4lSAdvk
I'm talking right out of my ass here, but _maybe_ they would've been better as a practice sword?
FLATOMAHSTRONK episode II: FULWIDTHOMAHTANG x)
Tang son...