If I time travel to the future and come back then I will know some people’s future. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t have free will. Their future may be determined, but that would be because of their choices.
When something is determined it means you can’t change it no matter what you do, sure we have choices I’ll give you that but we can never change what those choices will be; Ergo no free will cause free will is the ability to chose differently but I can’t do that when it is foretold and or written in stone.
it means they make choices, it does not mean those choices were freely chosen. Because they could not have chosen otherwise, the choices were fixed. In fact, to call it a "choice" is an illusion.
I’m not a believer, as I think I should state in the beginning. But it seems to me, in the context of those who are believers, that there is one, or two arguments that I’ve never seen in my extensive reading on this interesting subject. One argument is that if god is omniscient, then (s)he could have decided to not look at the future at all, allowing the concept of free will to occur. At times, (s)he could decide to look at some specific events for a particular purpose, but not at the future overall. Additionally, it could be that god could have decided to envision a multitude of futures, also allowing for free will. I’ve never understood why either of those ideas have not been heavily discussed, or even discussed at all.
@@markshard Yeah it does, because even though he’s not controlling your actions, your choices by his knowledge of fate are determined. If a person where to read a book yes he is not determining it’s characters actions. However, because it’s a story with a begging, middle, and end the characters actions are already decided, meaning they have no free will. It’s the same way with God and you could say that you determine your own actions and henceforth your fate, but there are many reasons why this is flawed. Also this God created the universe so he’s not just the reader he’s also the author, who in many theist words has a plan for each and every one of us in his universe. He is sovereign, and by that definition he is responsible for every single thing that happens, otherwise he can not be all powerful or all knowing.
It seems to me that it pushes the problem to the nature of "free will". If God foreknows what I will freely choose to do, that means he has some form of total "profound and inscrutable comprehension of each free will" (as Luis de Molina was stated it, later retaken by WLC). It would mean that, in some way, free will is predictable, and perfectly predictable for God. I have a hard time to understand the concept of free will if it's predictable.
@@Kyssifrot I think it pushes the issue to the nature of God's knowledge not the nature of free will. The word "predict" has meaning only within the realm of our limited human knowledge. For God, the word "predict" is redundant.
@@moayadsalih3563 It might be, indeed. But it seems, as Peter Van Inwagen was saying in his books, that if God's knowledge is to be understood as "God knows every true statements", then we would face such problems as "At t1, God knows: "I will do X at t2"". If "I will do X at t2" is a true statements, and thus God knows it, He also knows it at every point in time, it would still be true. However, this is possible if the Universe follows a B-theory of time (I think).
Its a question about the nature of reality, so yes God is involved or at least an explanation on offer, but for the sake of argument they are positing God as a brute fact, they asking how does that play out with the idea of free will in a universe of atomic interactions which are cause & effect based, simplicity isn't a prerequisite that's needed.
You can take G-d out and still the problem remains: If, according to physics, all causes have an original cause and nothing happens w/o a prior incident, and, you can know those prior causes (cue ball hits 8 ball and 8 ball goes into pocket) then you can know the future. It is determined that the 8 ball will go in based on the knowledge of what the cue ball did. So, if all is determined, there can be no free will. Same Q, but without G-d.
I'm fine with not knowing how God knows what he knows. He created everything and he is fully capable of accomplishing his plan to restore it while allowing humans freedom without having to preprogram everything that happens. The Bible is clear that he has chosen to give humans a certain level of autonomy because that is the only way we can be held responsible for our choices.
@@lmorter7867 That’s fine it’s your choice but I’m not satisfied with blind submission. I don’t know if that’s what your doing it’s just not what I will do.
As long as any alleged supernatural being with such abilities chooses not to tell you about your future actions and chooses not to predict his own future actions, no paradox of free will arises.That's the case even under a realist conception of time. It's similar to not choosing to create a stone that he cannot lift, which is compatible with being able to create such a stone. However, if the supernatural being chooses to make future predictions about herself or your actions, then these are either wrong - a limitation of knowledge of the future of the respective agent - or they will limit the agent's free will. In case of time, these paradoxes could be resolvable, though, namely if time had a branching network structure in which backwards information travel (backwards causation) leads to a branching and the resulting one-rooted graph is traversed depth-first and ordered by the number of edges leading backwards such that every edge that leads backwards has to be traversed exactly once and we eventually end up at a leaf. I don't think such a time structure is compatible with physics, though. As for "god" and which god, and whatever "god" could mean, I'll leave this superstitious nonsense to others.
Is the claim that the omniscience being does not know everything is equivalent to rejecting the general validity of K principle in epistemic logic? I'm so curious to know about that.
Ways to resolve this dilemma: 1. Open Theism; God cannot know the truth of future contingents like our free decisions, but doesn't conflict with his omniscience. 2. Thomist school of divine concurrence; God is the first mover of all events and predetermines a path of causal events that necessarily follows a path that he has marked out. In other words, God make a deterministic universe with predestination, no free will. However, this can be grouped with a compatibilist understanding of free will where agents are still responsible in accordance with their motivations. 3. Many worlds; God has a world ensemble where he knows every possible world and so regardless of what we do, it is in his knowledge, he just may not not know for certain which worldline will split. 4. Somehow, Libertarian free will is mysteriously true, yet God knows the future. Perhaps with his omnipresence in the 4th dimension, he actively observes every wave function collapse, and is observing you make a choice 1 year from now simultaneously. The future itself being a location in spacetime and past and future are illusions (B-theory of time). Oh, or... 5. God does not exist and you just wasted your precious time reading a comment that might as well been about a fictional story.
6. There are infinite universes and we are luckily living in one that is fine tuned for you to "reasonably disprove God's existence" Funny how we want to limit God with our reasoning, yet we BELIEVE in infinite chances producing the reason. Hahahahaha.
@@moveaxebx I'd say extreme multiverse explanations are reminiscent of theological discussions, because it invokes philosophical speculation to explain some unusual features of the universe we do observe. This is, of course, distinct from modal realism where we suppose all possible worlds are real, like in #3, where God has access to these worlds. Or God could have went the route of creating a multiverse, but it would be beyond our capacity to judge because we can only investigate one universe.
god is always put where people cannot get access to. First he was in the mountain, then he was in the sky and now he is outside space and time. How can "clever" people take this seriously ? I'm shocked
We are characters in a software program.. God is the programmer... We have free will as characters but, the programmer god can reset/rewind the program any time and change our future (ie our decisions)... If our program/universe is reset/rewinded we cannot know it! Also solves the Fermi paradox.
If God knows everything, we might as well pray, since we don't know what he's determined about us- what ever he will's will happen anyway, but there might to a possibility, to change our destiny, if we pray, as God is compassionate, let's say we were destined to have a car accident in 3 months, he can find a way to change that, so we will not be involved in a car accident, or plane accident.
Is my 'future-knowledge' of my parents conception of me in my birthyear in any way causally-enforcing of their actions? No. So then would God's knowledge similarly be contingent upon the agents actions.
@@kiplunar2192 Even if I was taken back in time to before my parents made me, I could have infallible future knowledge that they would choose to do so while my knowledge was still entirely contingent and a-causal to their choices. Yes, if God acted within time He could affect outcomes, as well as people's choices, just as we are capable of doing so (such as by raising the level of incentive to influence people's choices in our own favor).
And individual human prayers also encourages God to change the future outcome. How is that free will if god gives you that enrolment at a prestiges college or gets you that job you want due to someone else’s prayers?
I think that the true pathway is very or infinitely complex. Possibly, out of known dimensions for us to reason about. In that sense I believe God has infinite knowledge of how "things" will evolve in infinite complex ways. We are free to choose one pathway and it branches out to infinitely different outcomes that has effect on the whole universe. Probably comes very "natural" to the ultimate intelligence like God, but for us is just out of reach. Think of the weather. It's ultimately complex system and even though we can reason the parameters that affect it, we cannot predict it accurately even for the near future. It's just so complex. We are having troubles even simulating the flow of air around the wing. Every atom counts! Now, human freedom and the effects it has is probably far more complex.
@@moveaxebx The problem with that is that god doesn't know which one of the infinitely different outcomes is the correct one and therefore doesn't know everything. This contradiction has no solution. God doesn't exist.
@@tomjackson7755 I think you completely missed my point. There's not contradiction in that sense. System is so complex, that you are not able to reason about. It's so complex that it's not governed by pure logic. Modern physics is now facing similar boundaries. Understand, we are not able to reason what cannot be reasoned. That's why it's the domain of philosophy and faith. Reason is like an ant making its way across the land (complexity). Faith is more like an airplane, it's not bothered with irregularities of land/surface, obstructions, etc. "God doesn't exist". Oh, I guess he doesn't.
Chaos theory essentially. God may know every possible pathway, but he doesn't know which pathway we will choose and the ones that will become obsolete. For example, Donald Trump wins the 2016 election, the many possible worldlines where Hillary Clinton wins in different fashions vanishes as obsolete, along with the many other ways Donald Trump could have won but didn't. God knew each possibility, but not what pathway becomes actualized. Perhaps each worldline splits into another universe that God is also observing, so there are many versions of you in different universes with different outcomes. Eventually, some particular outcome is inevitable...
@@moveaxebx Maybe your point was wrong. Yes it is still a contradiction. The complexity is completely irrelevant, just like an airplane, it's not bothered with irregularities of land/surface, obstructions, etc. There is still something that god doesn't know. Can something that contradicts itself exist? No. God doesn't exist. If you want to talk a deist style god with no story or attributes that can contradict that is a different story.
I do not see a problem here, just because someone can predict my future actions with 100% certainty does not mean that I am not free in my actions. I do not perform the actions I perform because someones predicted it. I performed these actions because I willed it and nothing else.
Because it is a future you can’t change it’s not that your choosing your actions but your simply following this course like a rope climber. You can’t change the end, though yes you’ve made your choices because it’s something that already happened, you have no freedoms to choose otherwise
ooops. Question at 7:40: "You're degrading G-d's providence." Uh, no, you'd be degrading G-d's omniscience in that case. No, G-d cannot make a round square. This is a not a contradiction in omnipotence, is a straight forward logical contradiction-got nothing to do with anyone's power. It's cute but not a question. The "outside of time" answer is not an answer. Q remains no matter how you look at time. Wish I had an answer!!
I would recommend all viewers to review God's Middle-Knowledge (Molinism). God not only knows what could happen, and what will happen - He also knows what would happen. God orchestrated the world in such a way where free-will creatures would fulfill His will. Before God created the foundations of the world, He knew us. He knew what any one of us would do if, for example, we were in Peter's situation. He knows if we would have denied Christ three times if pressed the question by the public, or have stood boldly. Based upon God knowing the infinite amount of responses of free-will creatures to infinite amounts of circumstances and events, God placed us at a specific point in time and space with a Divine purpose. We did not choose when we would come into this world. God specifically gave us life within a particular point in history and geography. That purpose is to know Him and to fulfill His will through us. Obviously this opens the door for many other questions, but it is a very appealing doctrine and mind-expanding view that an Infinite God possesses Middle-Knowledge. Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. To know God, you must know Christ. Hope this provides some value. God bless ~
@@tomjackson7755 I suppose that is a differential viewpoint of how we see God. I see Him as Eternal, Infinite, and Atemporal. He has no limitations. He exists outside space and time and is in and through all dimensions. We are the ones who limit Him due to our finite minds not believing that He is Who He says He is. His foreknowledge created the world in such a way by which His ultimate Divine will would be fulfilled (knowing exactly who should be placed where and what circumstances must be allowed, intervened, and given). But, again, it appears we have a different perception of God.
In his strive to excuse his private decision to live a philosopers live (of limited usefullness), Peter v.I. lightly (and willingly) goes as far as to (theoretically) disempower not only whole humanity and every human being but even some mighty lions. Theoretically disempowering most humans may be usefull for some of the very powerfull.
We are talking abstractions and in human terms. Speculations is all we can offer. First wrong assumption is that "pure logic" is enough to describe events, second is that we are even capable to understand. We know ants are limited, why do we think that we are not?
According to the Heisenberg principle of uncertainty one cannot not Ascertain both the location and the velocity of an atom at the same time. In a not too dissimilar way for God to know all our future actions would require god to directly interfere in the causal links of human actions thus resulting in No true freewill.An alternative might be that even for God some future should be unknowable. gods absolut foreknowledge seems to leave little room for real freewill for human in the end.
Well everything is God then no matter what the choices or anything that happens either way because God is everything, God never stopped developing look at us and anything else, The environment effects effects As does the effects to the environment You all there is is heWhen you say God you mean you he it them yourself us I everything, You can expect the baby to know everything why would we, You can ask God to stop existing and changing why would you. So if we do not fully understand die or ourselves even why is it so important that God intervenes what we think is so badd death disaster disease if we are eternal beings soul spirit mind consciousness however you want to look at, Yet all we do a say this life sucks we need God we need saving when living is an experience Is a maturing developing experience and so. We all make the choices that affect each other and Environment , So everything recycles chains moves on changes becomes the same something else you name it, 1st of all why would God not want to exist if God is everything. S what we experience is unpleasant well we need to try to make the experience better than if we can you do not take away from any possibilities even if you live a better watch.
@@bartholomewtott3812 Oh, we actually agree somewhat. Yeah, just because all actions are predicated on 'reasons' that preceded those actions, does not mean the actions or reasons were not chosen over others (for if they had taken an alternative pathway differing reasons would have preceded the actions and would be pointed at as 'causing' their actions). In order to really prove determinism is true, they would have to prove that all actions are preceded by the same singular reasons that caused them.
True, the paradox requires knowledge by the person whose actions are predicated. If you know with absolute certainty that you're going to choose A out of A and B, then you're no longer free to choose B. If you can still choose B, then it's easy to invalidate the claim that you knew that you chose A by choosing B, and vice versa. Either you have incomplete knowledge or you have incomplete free will.
@@bartholomewtott3812 yes only some of the actions some of the time that you might be able to predict what a person wd freely choose.but never all of the actions all of the time. But the problem is god supposedly foreknows All things all "free actions ". And this is when things become problematic because only way a god can foreknow everyactions everything is by causing those actions or at least creating such conditions that bring about those "free actions".in such a way that an Individual has an illusion of freewill.
What makes God want to do something? What makes God prefer one thing to another?
Unless you live in the spiritual dimension, and have a deep relationship with God, this question is impossible to answer.
His glory. His purpose is to bring the most glory to Himself
If I time travel to the future and come back then I will know some people’s future. That doesn’t mean that they didn’t have free will.
Their future may be determined, but that would be because of their choices.
DigitalDan
My comment is regarding foreknowledge not time travel.
Umm no they wouldn’t they would literally only have one future they can achieve and they aren’t able to change it.
When something is determined it means you can’t change it no matter what you do, sure we have choices I’ll give you that but we can never change what those choices will be; Ergo no free will cause free will is the ability to chose differently but I can’t do that when it is foretold and or written in stone.
it means they make choices, it does not mean those choices were freely chosen. Because they could not have chosen otherwise, the choices were fixed. In fact, to call it a "choice" is an illusion.
Indeed god being outside time one cannot speak of gods foreknowledge. Here the word Fore is the key.
the point is pretty much nailed from 7:06 to7:19. a very instructive video. it shows how far logical rational thinking can clear up nonsense.
I’m not a believer, as I think I should state in the beginning. But it seems to me, in the context of those who are believers, that there is one, or two arguments that I’ve never seen in my extensive reading on this interesting subject.
One argument is that if god is omniscient, then (s)he could have decided to not look at the future at all, allowing the concept of free will to occur. At times, (s)he could decide to look at some specific events for a particular purpose, but not at the future overall. Additionally, it could be that god could have decided to envision a multitude of futures, also allowing for free will.
I’ve never understood why either of those ideas have not been heavily discussed, or even discussed at all.
Cause it doesn’t matter if he looks at it the fact that that future is there and determines get rid of your ability to change it, ergo no free will
@@anotherway6427 Wrong. Just because God knows past, present and future actions doesn't cancel free will.
@@markshard Yeah it does, because even though he’s not controlling your actions, your choices by his knowledge of fate are determined. If a person where to read a book yes he is not determining it’s characters actions. However, because it’s a story with a begging, middle, and end the characters actions are already decided, meaning they have no free will. It’s the same way with God and you could say that you determine your own actions and henceforth your fate, but there are many reasons why this is flawed. Also this God created the universe so he’s not just the reader he’s also the author, who in many theist words has a plan for each and every one of us in his universe. He is sovereign, and by that definition he is responsible for every single thing that happens, otherwise he can not be all powerful or all knowing.
No conflict. God foreknows what you will freely choose to do. That doesn't conflict with you having free will.
It seems to me that it pushes the problem to the nature of "free will". If God foreknows what I will freely choose to do, that means he has some form of total "profound and inscrutable comprehension of each free will" (as Luis de Molina was stated it, later retaken by WLC). It would mean that, in some way, free will is predictable, and perfectly predictable for God. I have a hard time to understand the concept of free will if it's predictable.
@@Kyssifrot I think it pushes the issue to the nature of God's knowledge not the nature of free will. The word "predict" has meaning only within the realm of our limited human knowledge. For God, the word "predict" is redundant.
@@moayadsalih3563 It might be, indeed.
But it seems, as Peter Van Inwagen was saying in his books, that if God's knowledge is to be understood as "God knows every true statements", then we would face such problems as "At t1, God knows: "I will do X at t2"". If "I will do X at t2" is a true statements, and thus God knows it, He also knows it at every point in time, it would still be true. However, this is possible if the Universe follows a B-theory of time (I think).
Yes it does it mean a you have one determined decision that you will make you can not choose otherwise and you can not change it.
Why are these only ten minutes long. Make them longer.
The question you ask would be much simpler if you leave God out of it.
Its a question about the nature of reality, so yes God is involved or at least an explanation on offer, but for the sake of argument they are positing God as a brute fact, they asking how does that play out with the idea of free will in a universe of atomic interactions which are cause & effect based, simplicity isn't a prerequisite that's needed.
You can take G-d out and still the problem remains: If, according to physics, all causes have an original cause and nothing happens w/o a prior incident, and, you can know those prior causes (cue ball hits 8 ball and 8 ball goes into pocket) then you can know the future. It is determined that the 8 ball will go in based on the knowledge of what the cue ball did. So, if all is determined, there can be no free will. Same Q, but without G-d.
I'm fine with not knowing how God knows what he knows. He created everything and he is fully capable of accomplishing his plan to restore it while allowing humans freedom without having to preprogram everything that happens. The Bible is clear that he has chosen to give humans a certain level of autonomy because that is the only way we can be held responsible for our choices.
So your just going to ignore a paradox that entails one of the biggest cores of Christianity… okay your choice.
@@anotherway6427 I accept that scripture doesn't explain to us things that we can't understand like how God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.
@@lmorter7867 That’s fine it’s your choice but I’m not satisfied with blind submission. I don’t know if that’s what your doing it’s just not what I will do.
@@anotherway6427 Let me understand..you will only submit to God if it makes sense to your finite mind?
As long as any alleged supernatural being with such abilities chooses not to tell you about your future actions and chooses not to predict his own future actions, no paradox of free will arises.That's the case even under a realist conception of time. It's similar to not choosing to create a stone that he cannot lift, which is compatible with being able to create such a stone. However, if the supernatural being chooses to make future predictions about herself or your actions, then these are either wrong - a limitation of knowledge of the future of the respective agent - or they will limit the agent's free will. In case of time, these paradoxes could be resolvable, though, namely if time had a branching network structure in which backwards information travel (backwards causation) leads to a branching and the resulting one-rooted graph is traversed depth-first and ordered by the number of edges leading backwards such that every edge that leads backwards has to be traversed exactly once and we eventually end up at a leaf. I don't think such a time structure is compatible with physics, though. As for "god" and which god, and whatever "god" could mean, I'll leave this superstitious nonsense to others.
Herself? Respect God's pronouns!
Is the claim that the omniscience being does not know everything is equivalent to rejecting the general validity of K principle in epistemic logic? I'm so curious to know about that.
Ways to resolve this dilemma:
1. Open Theism; God cannot know the truth of future contingents like our free decisions, but doesn't conflict with his omniscience.
2. Thomist school of divine concurrence; God is the first mover of all events and predetermines a path of causal events that necessarily follows a path that he has marked out. In other words, God make a deterministic universe with predestination, no free will. However, this can be grouped with a compatibilist understanding of free will where agents are still responsible in accordance with their motivations.
3. Many worlds; God has a world ensemble where he knows every possible world and so regardless of what we do, it is in his knowledge, he just may not not know for certain which worldline will split.
4. Somehow, Libertarian free will is mysteriously true, yet God knows the future. Perhaps with his omnipresence in the 4th dimension, he actively observes every wave function collapse, and is observing you make a choice 1 year from now simultaneously. The future itself being a location in spacetime and past and future are illusions (B-theory of time).
Oh, or...
5. God does not exist and you just wasted your precious time reading a comment that might as well been about a fictional story.
6. There are infinite universes and we are luckily living in one that is fine tuned for you to "reasonably disprove God's existence"
Funny how we want to limit God with our reasoning, yet we BELIEVE in infinite chances producing the reason. Hahahahaha.
@@moveaxebx I'd say extreme multiverse explanations are reminiscent of theological discussions, because it invokes philosophical speculation to explain some unusual features of the universe we do observe.
This is, of course, distinct from modal realism where we suppose all possible worlds are real, like in #3, where God has access to these worlds. Or God could have went the route of creating a multiverse, but it would be beyond our capacity to judge because we can only investigate one universe.
1 is just god not being omniscient lmao
Same with 3
god is always put where people cannot get access to. First he was in the mountain, then he was in the sky and now he is outside space and time.
How can "clever" people take this seriously ? I'm shocked
We are characters in a software program..
God is the programmer...
We have free will as characters but, the programmer god can reset/rewind the program any time and change our future (ie our decisions)...
If our program/universe is reset/rewinded we cannot know it!
Also solves the Fermi paradox.
If God knows everything, we might as well pray, since we don't know what he's determined about us- what ever he will's will happen anyway, but there might to a possibility, to change our destiny, if we pray, as God is compassionate, let's say we were destined to have a car accident in 3 months, he can find a way to change that, so we will not be involved in a car accident, or plane accident.
If a perfect God predestined me to have an accident in 3 months, I'd trust that's the best thing in accordance with His perfect plan
@@gratiaDei777 Yes, well karma could be part of that, you trust his plans anyway, God knows what's best for all of us, he never makes a mistake.
Is my 'future-knowledge' of my parents conception of me in my birthyear in any way causally-enforcing of their actions? No.
So then would God's knowledge similarly be contingent upon the agents actions.
But God knows before the fact, not after. And seems to have no problem interacting in the lives of humans. Does that not change things?
@@kiplunar2192 Even if I was taken back in time to before my parents made me, I could have infallible future knowledge that they would choose to do so while my knowledge was still entirely contingent and a-causal to their choices.
Yes, if God acted within time He could affect outcomes, as well as people's choices, just as we are capable of doing so (such as by raising the level of incentive to influence people's choices in our own favor).
Writer John Buck But with gods level of future- knowledge, would his interactions not steer our choices and decisions in a predetermined way?
It is fundamentally different because we don’t know the future outcomes. God does.
And individual human prayers also encourages God to change the future outcome. How is that free will if god gives you that enrolment at a prestiges college or gets you that job you want due to someone else’s prayers?
Timelessness doesn't change anything. If our future is known it's already happened and people don't have free will.
I think that the true pathway is very or infinitely complex. Possibly, out of known dimensions for us to reason about. In that sense I believe God has infinite knowledge of how "things" will evolve in infinite complex ways. We are free to choose one pathway and it branches out to infinitely different outcomes that has effect on the whole universe. Probably comes very "natural" to the ultimate intelligence like God, but for us is just out of reach.
Think of the weather. It's ultimately complex system and even though we can reason the parameters that affect it, we cannot predict it accurately even for the near future. It's just so complex. We are having troubles even simulating the flow of air around the wing. Every atom counts! Now, human freedom and the effects it has is probably far more complex.
@@moveaxebx The problem with that is that god doesn't know which one of the infinitely different outcomes is the correct one and therefore doesn't know everything. This contradiction has no solution. God doesn't exist.
@@tomjackson7755 I think you completely missed my point. There's not contradiction in that sense. System is so complex, that you are not able to reason about. It's so complex that it's not governed by pure logic. Modern physics is now facing similar boundaries. Understand, we are not able to reason what cannot be reasoned. That's why it's the domain of philosophy and faith. Reason is like an ant making its way across the land (complexity). Faith is more like an airplane, it's not bothered with irregularities of land/surface, obstructions, etc.
"God doesn't exist". Oh, I guess he doesn't.
Chaos theory essentially.
God may know every possible pathway, but he doesn't know which pathway we will choose and the ones that will become obsolete. For example, Donald Trump wins the 2016 election, the many possible worldlines where Hillary Clinton wins in different fashions vanishes as obsolete, along with the many other ways Donald Trump could have won but didn't. God knew each possibility, but not what pathway becomes actualized.
Perhaps each worldline splits into another universe that God is also observing, so there are many versions of you in different universes with different outcomes. Eventually, some particular outcome is inevitable...
@@moveaxebx Maybe your point was wrong. Yes it is still a contradiction. The complexity is completely irrelevant, just like an airplane, it's not bothered with irregularities of land/surface, obstructions, etc. There is still something that god doesn't know. Can something that contradicts itself exist? No. God doesn't exist.
If you want to talk a deist style god with no story or attributes that can contradict that is a different story.
I do not see a problem here, just because someone can predict my future actions with 100% certainty does not mean that I am not free in my actions. I do not perform the actions I perform because someones predicted it. I performed these actions because I willed it and nothing else.
No. You're performing your actions as reactions to everything around you.
Your fine with having one future that you cannot change
Because it is a future you can’t change it’s not that your choosing your actions but your simply following this course like a rope climber.
You can’t change the end, though yes you’ve made your choices because it’s something that already happened, you have no freedoms to choose otherwise
ooops. Question at 7:40: "You're degrading G-d's providence." Uh, no, you'd be degrading G-d's omniscience in that case. No, G-d cannot make a round square. This is a not a contradiction in omnipotence, is a straight forward logical contradiction-got nothing to do with anyone's power. It's cute but not a question. The "outside of time" answer is not an answer. Q remains no matter how you look at time. Wish I had an answer!!
Knowledge is not causative, is it? My knowledge that when a baby wakes up he or she will want food doesn't make the baby want food, for instance.
Free will is being able to make decisions if you can’t make a decision you can’t have free will
I would recommend all viewers to review God's Middle-Knowledge (Molinism). God not only knows what could happen, and what will happen - He also knows what would happen.
God orchestrated the world in such a way where free-will creatures would fulfill His will. Before God created the foundations of the world, He knew us. He knew what any one of us would do if, for example, we were in Peter's situation. He knows if we would have denied Christ three times if pressed the question by the public, or have stood boldly. Based upon God knowing the infinite amount of responses of free-will creatures to infinite amounts of circumstances and events, God placed us at a specific point in time and space with a Divine purpose. We did not choose when we would come into this world. God specifically gave us life within a particular point in history and geography. That purpose is to know Him and to fulfill His will through us. Obviously this opens the door for many other questions, but it is a very appealing doctrine and mind-expanding view that an Infinite God possesses Middle-Knowledge.
Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. To know God, you must know Christ.
Hope this provides some value. God bless ~
Middle-knowledge doesn't work because god doesn't know which one would actually happen.
@@tomjackson7755 I suppose that is a differential viewpoint of how we see God. I see Him as Eternal, Infinite, and Atemporal. He has no limitations. He exists outside space and time and is in and through all dimensions. We are the ones who limit Him due to our finite minds not believing that He is Who He says He is. His foreknowledge created the world in such a way by which His ultimate Divine will would be fulfilled (knowing exactly who should be placed where and what circumstances must be allowed, intervened, and given). But, again, it appears we have a different perception of God.
@@LanceVanTine you are correct. You are the ones limiting the supposed god since that’s literally all molinism is.
In his strive to excuse his private decision to live a philosopers live (of limited usefullness),
Peter v.I. lightly (and willingly) goes as far as to (theoretically) disempower not only whole humanity and every human being but even some mighty lions.
Theoretically disempowering most humans may be usefull for some of the very powerfull.
You're assuming humans are not part of god. How do you know that?
We are talking abstractions and in human terms. Speculations is all we can offer. First wrong assumption is that "pure logic" is enough to describe events, second is that we are even capable to understand. We know ants are limited, why do we think that we are not?
If God tells the prophet the future then clearly God knows the future, and therefore the future is already set in stone.
How do you know in all the infinite time lines god tells the same future to the profet?
I can tell you the future also. If you drink a lot you will get addicted.
@@moveaxebx If you drink a lot, you're probably already addicted.
@@ImmortalFabrizio I'm only concerned with the one God is concerned with.
@@ImmortalFabrizio How do you know there are infinite time lines?
According to the Heisenberg principle of uncertainty one cannot not Ascertain both the location and the velocity of an atom at the same time. In a not too dissimilar way for God to know all our future actions would require god to directly interfere in the causal links of human actions thus resulting in No true freewill.An alternative might be that even for God some future should be unknowable. gods absolut foreknowledge seems to leave little room for real freewill for human in the end.
Take gods out of the equation and you still don't have free will.
I can do whatever i want therefore i have free will
apep, what makes you say that?
@@bartholomewtott3812 You can do what you decide to do - but you cannot decide what you will decide to do.
@@bartholomewtott3812 you're nothing more than a product of your environment. We're basically robots following programming.
@@bartholomewtott3812 you can just f there isn’t an all knowing god
Wrong 😑
Well everything is God then no matter what the choices or anything that happens either way because God is everything, God never stopped developing look at us and anything else, The environment effects effects As does the effects to the environment You all there is is heWhen you say God you mean you he it them yourself us I everything, You can expect the baby to know everything why would we, You can ask God to stop existing and changing why would you. So if we do not fully understand die or ourselves even why is it so important that God intervenes what we think is so badd death disaster disease if we are eternal beings soul spirit mind consciousness however you want to look at, Yet all we do a say this life sucks we need God we need saving when living is an experience Is a maturing developing experience and so. We all make the choices that affect each other and Environment , So everything recycles chains moves on changes becomes the same something else you name it, 1st of all why would God not want to exist if God is everything. S what we experience is unpleasant well we need to try to make the experience better than if we can you do not take away from any possibilities even if you live a better watch.
You can’t have an all knowing god and free will and if we have free will then god isn’t all knowing
There is no contradiction between determinism and free will.
That sounds dumb.
Just because I might be able to predict a persons action doesnt mean they didnt do it out of their own free will.
@@bartholomewtott3812 Oh, we actually agree somewhat. Yeah, just because all actions are predicated on 'reasons' that preceded those actions, does not mean the actions or reasons were not chosen over others (for if they had taken an alternative pathway differing reasons would have preceded the actions and would be pointed at as 'causing' their actions). In order to really prove determinism is true, they would have to prove that all actions are preceded by the same singular reasons that caused them.
True, the paradox requires knowledge by the person whose actions are predicated. If you know with absolute certainty that you're going to choose A out of A and B, then you're no longer free to choose B. If you can still choose B, then it's easy to invalidate the claim that you knew that you chose A by choosing B, and vice versa. Either you have incomplete knowledge or you have incomplete free will.
@@bartholomewtott3812 yes only some of the actions some of the time that you might be able to predict what a person wd freely choose.but never all of the actions all of the time. But the problem is god supposedly foreknows All things all "free actions ". And this is when things become problematic because only way a god can foreknow everyactions everything is by causing those actions or at least creating such conditions that bring about those "free actions".in such a way that an
Individual has an illusion of freewill.
Why do you get these liars on your show who have no idea how they were created in God. They can only speak lies to you and your observers.
Only the white man knows 💨💨😈👺😕
Theosophy.
2019 who here ever met God?
I never met your mom.
hihih
there are problems with foreknowledge n freewill. Believers cannot get around this.