I have a young daughter. I believe she should have agency over her being, but I also know dangers she hasn’t experienced yet. Would I be a good mother to let her “free will” override my decision to stop her moving into traffic simply to give her choice? If I care about my people and I have every power to change it then I am not a good god.
I am born again, accepted Christ as my savior and am a child of God. God opened my eyes to my need for Jesus as a savior and my inability to achieve a sinless life. But I still need to willingly choose to die to myself daily, I still need to willingly choose Jesus over all the other desires, I still need to choose to willingly love God and fear Him over everything else. Hope that helps
Of course we are responsible to do all of that BUT God is the very reason your doing those things. He produces the desires to love and live for Him. If He left you to yourself you’ll choose your sin over Him everytime man. Read your Bible my boy and get understanding on your total sinfulness and God total sovereignty.
After experiencing the Love and Peace of God's Holy Spirit, it's easy for me to understand, that God's Free Will truly, is not our own. I have a Faith now, that is totally rock solid.
In my experience, some of the worst and best decisions I have made in my life have been under the INFLUENCE of either Satan or GOD. Our "free" will is influenced from above. "It's in whom GOD has mercy".. Life altering right choices are integrally linked to our closeness to GOD. It is all about HIS GRACE and MERCY towards us.
Thank you very much! Going to the verses right now to get it all deeper into my brain!... I just started this study and I'm definitely grateful that Desiring God has some videos on this topic! Pastor John's point of view on marriage, divorce and remarriage has surely changed my life! Not necessarily to a pleasant one hahaha but to one that I really believe aligns itself to God's will!! So I can't wait to learn more about this topic from you!!! Once again, thank you very much for all the amazing work you've been doing for the kingdom!!! May God continue to bless all that you do!:)))
I have experienced the sovereignty of God in certain choices I had made that stopped me from falling into a bad situation that would have been very disastrous
Isaiah 55:8-9 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. 1 Corinthians 3:19 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness” Romans 11:34-36 34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? 35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?” 36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Calvinist translation: I don't choose to perform mighty works in Tyre and Sidon, but if I did, I would have chosen more of them.
There is a difference between self determination and free will. God allows evil to exist in the world and we have the free will to make choices to choose good or evil, but God is sovereign and determination and judgement is his.
God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so. A. W. Tozer
Tozer's has good material about various topics but when it come to the topic of God's sovereignty in salvation , he's not the best person to do serious research about this issue
His view comes from the full context of God's word. The same chapter that says God sits in the heavens and does as he pleases. Also says the heavens belong to the Lord but the earth has been given over to man. So I'd contend someone who follows a system made by Augustine that teaches divine determinism, contrary to the early church, apostles, and Jesus; isn't the best source to understand sovereignty. All they are doing is using Isegesis to read what they already believe, based on traditions made in the mind of man; rather then the clear word of God. I found during my time as a Calvinist, Instead of using biblical definitions the system redefines everything to fit their system. Really look into what the early church taught and if you seek Truth you'll see it. ❤
Sounds like you are a Catholic. Doesn't matter what the early church taught it's about what the bible teaches through exegesis of passages like John 6:37-44, eph.1:4, Romans 9 etc. I truly find that Arminians engage in poor exegesis, I was not impressed with Norman Geisler's exegesis of key passages in his book "Chosen by Free". Not to mention Dave Hunt who clearly misrepresents.
See and thats the the problem. To many it diesnt matter what Jesus taught and the church carried on for 300+ years to Augustine. What matters ot seems is how one man understood the bible. I encourage you to read what Jesus actually said, not what Augustine and Calvin think he said. When you read the early church you'll find they continued in the teaching of Christ and tradition of the apostles till the time of Constantine when everything got flipped around and the RCC was born. Augustine started teaching what Jesus taught and the church always believed. Then before his death he began to read the bible through his former Gnostic lenses and began what Calvin later systamatised. The Spirit of Truth was given to lead us into all Truth. I was a Calvinist and did not want to leave my beloved doctrines of Grace. God however had other plans. He humbled and corrected me, taking me through eph 1 and showing me my error. I then had to decide whether i was gonna follow God or men. Calvinism is not what the bible teaches, which is clear when you read objectively. It is a system made in the mind of man and built on the spirit of this world rather then on Christ. If anyone looks at the facts objectively and seek Truth, I've no doubt they'll see that. Not trying to fight just speak the Truth in love. I hope no one takes my word for it but instead is more noble like the bereans and sees for themself. Calvinism is hard determinism and an untenable way of life that causes young believers unneeded suffering. The whole calvinism arminian debate misses the point. Neither are correct and the whole division was brought about by the enemy of our souls to keep us from Truth and freedom in Jesus. But God is faithful. He disciplines and leads those who Love him.❤
Seth Harrison I see those passages differently than how a Calvinist would see them. I’d like to look at the context with you if you don’t mind. God bless
Seth Harrison umm god doesn't believe in freewill. he hardened the heart of the pharaoh when Moses asked him to free the Jews. so instead of allowing the pharaoh to exercise freewill, god hardened his heart. it gets better....god then tortured the Egyptians with plagues and the murdering of innocent babies because the pharaoh wouldn't free the Jews. I'd say that these are the actions of a sadistic god.
According to the Hebrews Scriptures we can all rest assured that our loved our ones grandparents, brothers, sisters, friends had there sin debt paid in full. They were included in Father YAHwen's PLAN from the beginning. I praise Father YAHweh for the blessed hope.
I don’t get it, how are we responsible if God forces us to have a certain will? What if he didn’t force any particular will? We probably would have made a different choice. So if someone could help me understand this I would greatly appreciate that.
@@Thebronzezodbecause God said so. It don’t make sense but there’s nothing we can do about it. I guess the grace is we are the ones he chose to receive Christ.
For a Christian, The Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment would be farces if "free will to choose" was not true. Think on these things:. how could souls be judged and held responsible if they were predestined without free will? Is that just?.
Just playing the Arminian's Advocate here, but he mentioned Proverbs 21:1, but didn't Solomon's wives turn his heart away from the Lord? So if the ability to turn hearts makes one sovereign, then so were Solomon's wives. How would you respond?
I really appreciate Pastor John's answers to questions and he has really helped me to grow closer to Christ but base on his answer to this question i totally disagree for many reasons and i would state few of them First Amos 3 vs 3 says can two work together unless they agree. So i don't believe Man accepting Christ is a God's will or choice alone but i fully believe it's 100% God's will and 100% man's will in agreement to it. I mean accepting Christ is viewed in the Bible as a marriage so if God is the only determinant of whether we marry him or not or if it's up to God to choose who he wants to marry and not even ask our hands in marriage then it's no longer a marriage but a snatchage or forcage ... you get the idea. So just like a marriage is an agreement between both parties and the coming to christ is viewed that way then I firmly believe accepting Christ is a Gods will not forcing it's way on anyone and abandoning others but asking the permission of others hand in union, marriage with him. Like Jesus would put it... If any man will follow me... Not I will choose some men to follow me... Or as God would say it... draw nigh to me and i will draw nigh to you... And not you draw nigh or you don't draw nigh I will catch you one day and draw nigh so much that you can't resist me... I fully believe in these matters we have a role to play just as much as God has his to play
César Amundaray John Piper dice que Dios es soberano sobre el libre albedrío (cuando se define como "la máxima autodeterminación del hombre) como Jesús dice que nadie vendrá a Él a menos que sea otorgado por el Padre, por lo tanto, la gracia es un regalo y no simplemente una decisión que tomamos. Agregaré a esto que creo que Dios nos da libre albedrío en nuestra escala (Él nos ama y quiere que sigamos su voluntad, sin embargo, tenemos la opción de desobedecer), pero finalmente encaja en su plan perfecto: la historia de José en el Génesis prueba que incluso si los hermanos de José se portaron mal, finalmente encajó en el plan de Dios. El pastor John dice que no somos libres de elegir a Cristo (yo personalmente no estoy de acuerdo, aunque creo que Grace es un regalo, el amor de Dios asegura que nosotros, que lo buscamos, lo encontremos, entonces, en ese aspecto, nuestro libre albedrío juega un papel en la búsqueda de una nueva identidad en Cristo). Espero haber ayudado un poco, no hablo español, así que utilicé google ^^
May I bring one point of difference? Just because you are granted access to a king doesn't mean you will accept or take advantage of that access. You are probably a complete fool do deny a granted access to a king but there are great fools in the earth, that I do know. Access to salvation is a gift from the Father, salvation itself is also a gift, but any gift can be rejected, which it's generally considered rude and arrogant to not accept a gift from someone. Many people fall short of the grace of God, by denying it and its power, even though they are or have been recipient to it. I believe that both God is completely Sovereign and man's will completely free. It is a great mystery. I have marveled and pondered this from a little boy but I have determined that if anyone claims to have the perfect answer to this is most likely wrong. What's your capcity for mystery? Can the ways of God be unsearchable to you or do you need a god that you can fully understand? Ecclesiastes 8:17 "I realized that no one can discover everything God is doing under the sun. Not even the wisest people discover everything, no matter what they claim."
If you completely believe that. Explain Romans 9 to me. You gave a lot of passages that in your understanding clearly reveals free will. I could do the same in passages that say the opposite. Some say we cannot reconcile this and it appears a contradiction. But God does not contradict Himself. I personally believe there is an answer that only God can reveal. Because the word says. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the [d]Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will Then he continues and says; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power.
God is sovereign, we are free.. we must choose God. Meaning choosing a relationship with him. (Take responsibility for our own soul, in a way become sovereign, like God) Choosing a relationship with God means pouring out your cup. Completely emptying what we think, or know what that is true. Being open to receiving his wisdom and love.The Bible is a spiritual book. I think time is not a line going straight forward. But in cycles. "nothing new under the sun". Meaning humans regurgitate the same shit over and over again.. until.. they choose Good. (Because he is beyond the sun, stars moon.. beyond creation and what is seen). To reach that height or dimension of thinking.. we have to die to the flesh. Meaning kill the beast. Also meaning, leave the world and human ways of thinking along. Christ was the portal..like a door. If you understand his parables, I mean truly understand..it's because you have the holy spirit..and it is the beginning to wisdom.
If you quote John 6 then make sure you quote John 12. 6 says no man can come unless the father draws him. 12 says that when I am raised up from the earth I will draw ALL men to me. So he draws everyone. But once drawn through the gospel man must believe. It's not either or it's not either God is sovereign or man has free will. Both are true. God is sovereign AND he gives man free will. God is self determining. But giving man free will doesn't affect God's will. God is so sovereign that even though we have free will he still has full control and his will be done.
True Christian man doesn’t have free will, we can’t choose God, we can’t approach god unless he grants it. We can’t save our selves. If we had free will we could stop sinning
Nice comment man! The problem though with just taking words and interpreting them with our understanding rather than knowing the context of the meaning is that we could come up with just about any belief we want to and say its biblical. So about John 12 the way I understand it... In Jesus days the Jews thought they were the only ones Jesus came for.. Jesus was basically saying, I didn't come to die for Jews only but for men of every kind. I mean think of this, if we take only the exact words using our own understanding then John 12 would also mean that Jesus draws only men to himself and not women. But in context we know this isn't the case. This would also be true when using the word "world." I mean we quote John 3:16 For God so loved the "world." With our understanding we assume this means every human on earth that's ever lived but look what 1 John 2:15 instructs us to do " Do not love the world nor the things in the world." Why would God love something and then tell us NOT to love it? Its all about keeping things in context. Sometimes world may mean all of nature, sometimes it may mean every human and sometimes it may mean people from every nation but not every individual, etc...
Ah...the danger of predestination. The best way I've seen the topic addressed is this....PREDESTINATION FROM FOREKNOWLEDGE. God knows what you will do before you are ever born. While, in fairness, every man may be given a chance to believe, how far God will strive to draw you in comes from what He knows you will ultimately choose. God knowing you will ultimately reject Him DOES NOT MEAN God is a mean old man choosing to condemn someone to Hell. God didn't make you reject Him. God just knows the end from the beginning and knows the choice that (from his point of view) you have already made. So, in a way, ALL have an "equal chance" to receive the gospel and be saved. God does not arbitrarily choose some and reject others...nor is God showing some twisted form of favoritism on who gets in and who does not. God simply KNOWS who will accept and who will reject. It is US who DO NOT KNOW where we will ultimately end up based on our choices. I personally hold that "free will" is largely an illusion. If God is sovereign, our will does not matter and has no effect on the eternal. HOWEVER, God doesn't want people to choose Him out of fear or force...God wants us to FELLOWSHIP with Him...of our own free choosing. So, God denies us sufficient "proof" of His existence so we have space to doubt. This allows those who would rather live for themselves to reject God and believe there is no eternal consequence and those who have faith to believe to accept the gift of salvation.
Free will is a delusion. From. ,9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
I think this type of thinking causes too many other obstacles. Yes I agree God is Sovereign over all... But that just means to me that nothing that is done is outside of his ultimate plan. For a God to give you free will and still know exactly what you will do and where you will end up, that speaks of an infinitly great unfathomable God and his wisdom. That's a God I believe in. But if it's true that God gifts me the ability to believe and it's not of my own will that I come to surrender then why do we have church? Why do we preach every Sunday, trying to keep the body alive and train up disciples to preach the gospel... What goal do they have then? The scriptures given in this lecture can easily be interpreted in a way that speaks of a God that is in control, he knows everything, every outcome, nothing, not even evil exists without Him allowing it, but the very existence of Evil is because of freedom of choice. If Pastor John knew the answer to why Lucifer sinned then He would know that free will too choose God is given, and it was given for a reason. All of this we go through on earth has a reason, and in the end it will Glorify God, and every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that God is truly a just, loving God and there is non other besides Him.
This has to be one of the most dogmatic explanations I have ever heard without any specific conclusion on the matter altogether.. Grace is help. Not slavery. Sounded like an thesis essay. Simply put, the Word says clearly: "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." Deuteronomy 30:15-20 ESV bible.com/bible/59/deu.30.15-20.ESV The Bible is FULL of examples of such things. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 ESV bible.com/bible/59/jer.29.13.ESV These are all clear signs of CHOICE AND FREE WILL. Can't say I agree with the answer given 100%. The Word says clearly that those who ENDURE until the end... another sign of choice. The list is never ending. The Lord says clearly that He wills that NONE shall perish... choice again. Free will. It is by choice where grace abounds.. those who CHOOSE Him..
That verse isn’t talking about free will. It’s a commandment to follow the lord. What does everyone do in scripture? We don’t listen we do what we want to do.Our only will is sin, the heart is deceitful we only do what we know how to do...sin. Ephesians 2 says that we are “dead in our trespasses” along on that chapter it says God grants us the gift of faith. He gives us faith to believe to be made new. He grants us permission to believe when he said we were “dead” a dead person can’t do anything unless God draws us near. It’s his will be done. A gift is given to you. Not on your behalf but Gods doing. Everybody that believes is because God gives us that faith to believe because salvation is of the lord. Dig into the scriptures it littered everywhere.
@@BiG_SorD But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. Romans 1:18-25 NLT Read MORE, bro
John, I must also say, you're actually one of the core reasons my faith is broken. I was going through a long period of suffering in my life, thinking God was abandoning me. But I knew you were considered one of the most respected pastors in the Evangelical sphere, and so I turned to one of your videos for comfort and encouragement. But what came out of your mouth was that God did choose me to suffer and to ultimately be damned. I had never heard or conceived that God would be a God who would forsake me or damn me just because He felt like it. I was in my car, and I screamed from the depths of my soul, for you struck me and wounded me deep in my soul... A wound that almost 10 years later, has me hanging on by nothing but a thread, making me wish I'd just kill myself and have God send me to Hell and get it over with already. You were the start of the taking of my hope in Christ. You are a stumbling block, and the Scripture says woe to those who cause others to stumble, for it'd be better that an anchor be tied to their neck and cast to the bottom of the sea than to face the consequences for causing a believer to stumble.
I’m sorry to hear that! John can definitely be confusing or easily misunderstood because of the way he speaks sometimes. But I know he ultimately wants everyone to know God loves everybody, and also is in control of everything. I believe if you live this life rejecting God, you’ll live for eternity rejecting God in hell. Don’t do it! Question Him, plead with Him, wrestle with Him, be annoyed or frustrated at Him… but don’t lose faith that He is God and that he loves you and died for you! I’d give you a few Bible verses but sounds like you probably have read a lot of those and just need to have a heart to heart with God. Don’t give up! I’m praying for you!
Any free will that man has, and that is very minimal, occurs within the confines of God's sovereignty. Thus, man has never been completely autonomous and never will be.
@@Android-ds9ie you and all of us are too weak. Without God's mercy and grace, we are undone. All any of us can do is cry out. That kind of humility is what keeps us. The word of God says, to him who thinks he stands to take heed lest he falls. Jesus also said in John 17 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. He continues and says; I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so, have I also sent them into the world. In the context of all this Jesus prays we would be one in Him. And for their sakes, I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither prays I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
@@tstjohn777 if your god has somuch power let him move the pen in my table atlease an inch but he cannot do that but I can pick the pen and throw wtf I am more powerful than god hahaha
Android 10.0 God absolutely can move the pen and has done far more than that such as creating the entire universe, parting the Red Sea, walking on water, calming storms, raising the dead, saving his elected people from his eternal/ deserved wrath, and so forth. You and I can throw as many pens as we want but even in our greatest abilities we could never amount to what he has done. God certainly could move that pen, and even throw the Earth straight into the sun if he wanted to. It is through his sovereign will that he chooses not to move the pen. I hope to see you in heaven someday
Here’s what I understand. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I want to be corrected, but I also want to start a discussion. Grace is not a substance or a power, as if it’s a thing detached from God who gives it. Grace is God’s exercise of his kindness toward those who do not deserve it. In Arminianism, salvation is totally of grace and not of man’s power. The grace to believe is provided beforehand and built in as a basic faculty of man from the beginning. But unsaved man cannot see spiritual things. Once revealed to him, he may believe or reject what he sees by the power he has been granted through prevenient grace (this may not be the best way to portray Arminianism. Forgive me, it’s complicated.) In Calvinism, salvation is also totally of grace and not of man’s power. The grace is provided in the moment of salvation to regenerate a dead sinner. The sinner is granted both a revelation and faith to believe in the moment. Friends, I hope I’ve portrayed both views faithfully in those short statements. Assuming so, which do you think lines up with scripture better? Is there another view that’s better than both? Is one or both heresy?
I appreciate your discussion about grace, and I'll tell you why. I grew up in the Arminian denomination Piper refers to, but I never heard of grace, or at least I never noticed it. Now this could be my own blindness, but I doubt it. In fact, this denomination seems more interested in seeker sensitive service than the grace of God. So in my tradition, I believed myself to be saved because I made a decision for Jesus with my free will. Or at least I trusted my religious upbringing. However, I could never reconcile how I, a mere man, could save myself. How could me deciding to say a sinner's prayer enact the will of God? It never felt right, and I always doubted my salvation (and rightfully so, as I've come to find out later in life). I even became a minister in this free will denomination, but gave it up after a few years because I knew in my heart I was a fake. Fast forward a decade, and now my marriage is in shambles. My wife and I split up, leaving our four kids with her. I'm a mess, living in my van, at the end of my rope. My worst fears have come true. I've been exposed and humiliated. So I turn to God. I started reading his words, the Bible. It had been a decade since I bothered to read his message to mankind. And in this time God saved me. God did his work upon my heart. Not me. I finally saw his grace. I knew God. I now know I'm saved because of him, not because of me. I don't believe I was saved before, like the majority of people filling our pews these days. I don't find God's grace is preached or emphasized all that much in free will churches...because it doesn't need to be. Why speak of God's grace when I choose or not whether to be saved? Oh, the deep, deep pride of man. I don't like classifying God's word and will by man-made structures like Arminianism and Calvinism, but I think you can see which way I lean these days. You need to understand I still attend this denomination with my family. I don't want to, and I fear for my family's false conversions. It's a hard pill to swallow, but I do believe today that Calvinism lines up with Scripture, despite my upbringing and my extended family's religious tradition. I am all alone in my conviction with everyone I know. But I know God to be sovereign in salvation. It's the only way. God's word doesn't seem to indicate that man has free will. I see that man is either a slave to sin or set free by Christ. Anyway, I could ramble on for pages. I'm not sure why you wanted to start a discussion, but I pray God's grace and peace upon you in your spiritual journey. PS. John McArthur said a smart thing about this debate: he sees both in Scripture, so he doesn't know, but he trusts God.
@@danderth Thanks for your testimony, brother! Gods grace is indispensable in salvation, and man’s effort and merit are filthy rags. I fear for the many unconverted in the pews as well. I also fear for Christians dividing the body of Christ over these particular theological lenses. I think an Arminian can be saved the same way a Calvinist can be, if they both truly believe the gospel of grace. I’m also on the Calvinist side of things, though I had an Arminian influence growing up. It’s easy to fear losing your salvation when the power to believe is up to self. But an Arminian can believe that God saves us and keeps us as well as a Calvinist if they keep their ideas about free will in check.
@@nathanrobertsofficial1524 Thanks for this. I appreciate your spirit. I hope you have like-minded brothers in your fellowship to share your faith with. I keep wanting to find another church, but I'm not sure the grass will be any greener. I thank God for his grace constantly now.
@@danderth I hope you keep looking, though you may not find much just yet. Ask though, because you don’t yet know what God will lead you to. I’m praying for you and your family, that God would do great things and bring you to green pastures. If that means a new church that preaches the gospel of grace more accurately, or if it just means he edifies you where you are, so be it. He’s our good shepherd who feeds us. He prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemies (Psalm 23). But if your church is teaching falsehood, heresy, or just not preaching the gospel at all, but instead morality and virtue void of the gospel, don’t worry about not finding a better church right away. Just get you and your family away from that church. God will help you find another. Don’t let greener grass talk keep you under harmful influences, or from finding a gospel centered, Bible believing church.
So if I ask God to have faith in Jesus he may or may not give that to me? Therefore anyone on this Earth may or may not be predestined to hell no matter how badly they want to be saved from damnation?
This is exactly what I'm struggling with. I'm not a Christian. I'm praying and utterly desperate, yet nothing. Calvinists seem to gloss over this issue.
@@koopeda so in essence what you are saying in a very polite way is that I should read the Bible, no matter how desperate the situation, there may not be hope? Then what is the point? I thought God said, whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED, not may be, not might be, not possibly may, but WILL be saved. What of what the verse says that it is NOT God's will that any should perish, but come to repentance? I didn't make these words up, they're in the Bible. Calvinists believe in once saved always saved, that is a lie. There are many scriptures that say otherwise, people have a choice, God doesn't hold us hostage like robots with no capability to resist or walk away. There are many verse about falling away, being deceived. If it wasn't a possibility those verses wouldn't need to be there in the first place. Thanks for your advice, but I'm on the verge of ending life. Your comments to just keep reading, and my fate is basically up to God is the worst slap in the face a person who is on the edge of a cliff can ever receive.
Mercedes Reynoso Mercedes Reynoso Id like to know more about your situation friend if I were to speak specifically about what you're going through- it does sound awful and I sympathize. But I thought I'd give some simple truths pertaining to the sovereignty of God as best as I understand. No Calvinist is promoting a lopsided view of Scripture where we discard certain truths- actually see Pipers own video about predetermination. So even if certain elements are beyond us, we hold both the verses Piper mentioned that God ultimately determines whether we will make the choice to be saved, AND the verse you mentioned (among others) that plead with us to call on the Lord and be saved. Paul who penned so many clear texts about predestination also pleads with his readers to be reconciled to Christ. So they're both true. It is God working in us, yes, that brings us to being saved, but the Scriptures guarantee you friend that if you profess Jesus as Lord and believe in His resurrection, you will be saved. There is no precedent to say God says no to those seeking repentance for in fact, it is His own prompting by the Holy Spirit which is the only reason I or anyone else ever accepted Christ. You're not blocked from salvation by God or anyone. God is prompting you. There is hope in Christ and you CAN accept it!
@@mercedesreynoso4318 don't study calvanism in order to become a christian. Put your faith in jesus to redeem you from the sin youve commited and commit to a lifelong relationship with Him and seek Him to give you life abundant and He will save you. Take up ypur cross and follow Him. Romans 10:9 john 15, John 17:3.
John 3:16 says "For God so loved the WORLD the WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." The Calvinist uses brilliant debate technics in refuting words so that they can make their doctrine fit. The Calvinist would reply to your concern that if you are wanting to be saved it is only God's Sovereignty over your human will that would allow you to seek Him. This issue has caused my husband and me to live in a House divided. There is no middle ground.
People please look up verses that use the word repentance. In no way does this idea of God making people repent make any sense in light of the hundreds of verses where God calls sinners to repentance. Why would God wait for people to repent? Why would he get angry when they don't repent? Why does he say unless you repent you will perish? If God is causing people to repent, these verses truly are strange.
To say humans have no decisive causality is to say we are robots. Sorry, but it is - if God has determined that I am saved, I can do anything I like, and I will still be saved. I would say, God is sovereign, and he CAN control ANYTHING, but I feel he limits his control of me out of love. If that’s false, then I’m a robot and nothing I do ultimately matters.
Matthew Human beings were never robots but became a ruined species, having lost through the Fall both our original perfection in innocence and the intimate communion with God. So drastic was this ruination that Scripture tells us fallen, corrupt mankind has no innate ability to understand God, seek Him or do anything good in His sight (cf. Psalm 14:1-3 ; 53:1-3; Rom. 3:10-13). Thus human beings, from the day of our birth, go astray (Psalm 58:3). We all follow a course in life that leads to death (both physical and spiritual) until such time as God intervenes by mercifully and graciously drawing souls to Himself (cf. John 6:37,44,65 ; Eph. 2:8,9 ; Titus 3:5). This display of effectual grace involves giving the Holy Spirit into the heart of man so that he learns to follow the promptings of the Spirit instead of his flesh (Rom. 8:3-5). True, the spiritually regenerated can do anything they want and still be saved; but they now possess different desires that fall into compliance with God's will to conform them into the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). That does not make them automatons because they still retain the ability to choose to follow their flesh, though to suffer discipline for any disobedience to God as per Heb. 12:6-13.
R. Crompton R. Crompton But if you are right, then people God hasn’t predestined to know him can NEVER know him. Why would got make it impossible for large numbers of people to arbitrarily not know him? It’s a little disingenuous to say God has given us a free gift of Salvation through Jesus if many are not eligible
Matthew It is not our place to question/challenge God. But the answer lies within God's mercy and justice. He extends mercy to those who do not deserve mercy. That in itself shows that God is strangely loving to the objects of His love who as inveterate sinners, deserve no love. As Romans 5:8 states, "But God commended His love toward us [the saved/elect] that while we were sinners, Christ died for us." Love is extended and justice is satisfied in that Christ took the punishment for those whom God has purposed to redeem to Himself.God also dispenses His wrath on the guilty who justly deserve eternal punishment. Just how God chooses to extend mercy to some and pass others by is not understood. Romans 9:15-23 deals with this. We must accept that God has the judicial right to send all law-breakers to an eternal punishment. But for the purpose of His glorification, He cannot be accused of injustice; nor can he be accused of being unloving. Paul's rhetorical question in Romans 9:19 can only answered one way i.e. vs 20 ff. God fashions vessels of honour out of their sinful state and leaves others to be vessels fitted to destruction, according to His pleasure. That's difficult for us to accept but who are we to reply against God?
Jacob Byrd, the Bible does NOT say faith is a gift. Rom 10:17 FAITH comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; The word ‘it’ refers to saved, not faith. The object of this sentence is ‘saved’. The Bible clearly teaches that Salvation is the gift - John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He GAVE His only begotten Son, … John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the GIFT of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you LIVING WATER." Romans 5:15 But the FREE GIFT is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the GIFT by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Greg Jay, you are forgetting other verses in the Bible that tell us that faith originates from God. Hebrews 12:2 says Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith; the whole thing is a gift of God, not of works. Salvation is the gift, but notice we are saved by grace through faith (two prepositional phrases telling us how we are saved, which means the whole thing is a gift) contrasted with "not of works." By your own reasoning, if the saved is the only gift in those verses, then the prepositional phrases "by grace through faith" isn't a gift. Yet the Romans 5:15 verse you quoted actually says the gift is by the grace of Jesus Christ. But the faith is from us? So, in effect, are you reading the verse like this: For by (the) grace (that comes from Christ) are ye saved through (the) faith (that comes from man), and that (only the saved part) not of yourselves (except your free-will choice), it (only the saved part) is a gift of God? Ephesians 3:7 calls grace a gift. Yet the Bible tells us the beginning of faith comes from God because 2 Timothy 2:25 tells us that God gives repentance and 2 Corinthians 7:10 says godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation, but sorrow of the world (the unsaved) works death. Notice the adjective "godly" describes the sorrow, which means it originates from God. Also, it is impossible to please God without faith according to Hebrews 11:6. Yet many seem to think that faith is generated from the will of sinful man. Sinful man does everything in their flesh and by the reasoning of their carnal mind. Well Romans 8:5-8 tells us that to be carnally minded is death and the carnal mind is enmity (hostility) against God. And it also tells us anyone in the flesh (their sinful nature) can't please God. Here we have Bible verses that clearly tell us that sinful mankind has a hostile, carnal mind and that they can do nothing to please God. Yet we want to believe man in his own sin nature can muster enough faith (in their sinfulness) to trust the very God they hate (John 15:18-23). And Romans 8:9 contrasts the believer to the unsaved by telling us we are not in the flesh, but the Spirit. So Romans 8:5-8 clearly speaks of unsaved people. And yes, faith comes by hearing, but notice Romans 10:18 asks, didn't they not hear? Yet they weren't saved. So yes, faith comes by hearing, but it isn't just hearing the Word, it is hearing it with a new heart that only God can give because the unsaved person, in their own nature, can't discern spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14). And finally, if man has the free will to choose Christ and just receive the free gift of salvation, does that same man have the free will to choose to leave Christ and not be saved if that is his desire?
Free will is defined as a choice inherent in humans that even God cannot intervene. When the will is set according to God's decree, it is not free will. Most people try to think of free will as a simple free choice that is not coerced. The teachings of the Bible do not say that Adam and Eve, created by God in the beginning, had free will. Adam and Eve, who had no sin, or Christians who are now saved by believing in Jesus Christ, cannot overcome Satan's temptations on their own if they escape from God's tabernacle of grace. However, it is not at all unrighteous for God to withdraw for a while the tabernacle that God has always protected His people as the tabernacle of grace according to His decreed dispensation and predestined will. When God temporarily withdraws the tabernacle of grace, Satan tries to tempt God's people fall into sin. Even so, the cause of fallen man's sin is not God, and God is never unrighteous.
Read Ken Wilson's recent book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" to see why Augustine went against the Early Church Fathers before him, and against 25 years of his own ministry in order to justify infant baptism. Since the child had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child. Therefore, Augustine had to deny free will.
So if no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him and no one can believe unless God gives him the faith to believe, how can man be accountable if he doesn't come to Jesus or doesn't have faith? God has chosen Whom He will save - or not save - man has nothing to do with it. This makes no sense. I cannot see how God can be loving, kind, just, or merciful when He picks and chooses who He will save and who He will not save. And the only explanation the Bible gives is in Romans 9:20-21. Please explain how this is just - that God determines who will be saved - before they're even born - yet man is to blame for his lack of faith and ultimate damnation.
Yes, Predestination is real❤ predestination is mentioned 3 times in Scripture. In context it's written to the saints Ephesians1:1, already saved people, we are predestined to 3 things. To the Adoption-Redemtion Ephesians1:5, Romans 8:23(right now sprit of adoption Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:5-6) Predestined to for the inheritance Ephesians 1:11 Predestined to be conformed to Jesus' Imagine Romans 8:29. We will get these things when we meet Jesus. Please could you provide me with scripture where we are predestined for either salvation or damnation. We are told in Ezekiel 18:23 and Ezekiel 33:11 that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but wants them to turn from their wicked ways and receive life. As for Romans 9 I'm assuming you are meaning where God loves Jacob and Hates Esau? My question is how is it possible for us who are the creation to love more then God, who is our Creator, who IS love, IS Holy who has no darkness in Him, Is perfect. We are told in Genesis 25:28 that Issac loved Esau. My understanding in Romans 9:13 is that love and hate (Genesis 25:23, Malachi 1:2,3 which love and hate is written 1500 apart) are not matters of emotion; they are matters of the Fathers will. In the papyri (ancient secular writings dating to biblical times) the expressions " love" and "hate" are used of man who could afford to adopt only one of two twin orphaned boys. He was said to have "loved" the one he adopted and "hated" the one he did not adopt. If the father had two sons and made one heir, he was said to love the one he had made his heir and to hate the other whom he had not made heir. The words challenged Isreal to recognize the responsibilities inherent in its privileged position. We are also commanded to hate our mother and father, and hate our lives, that doesn't mean literally hate, it just means love less, we are to love our life less than Christ and love our mother and father less than Christ. Or do you mean Romans 9:20-21? In the 16th century Europeans were not the original target audience Paul had in mind. The intended recipient of the Book of Romans was the mix of Jew and Gentile believers in Christ. They would have been familiar with the OT stories, passages, citations and references that Paul brings up the Potter of Jeremiah 18, the lineage of Messiah, Pharaoh and the judgement upon Egypt. Here is Jeremiah's potter for comparison. So I went down to the potters house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of day was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. Then the word of the Lord came to me: "Oh house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? Declares the LORD, Behold, like the day in the potter's hand, are you in my hand, Oh house of Isreal. Jeremiah 18:3-6. Notice what happened to the clay vessel, it became spoiled. The potter did not toss the misshapen clay into trash. Vessels are used to carry contents, oil or perfume, or waste fluids- not specific purpose of being smashed and trashed. And take heed what follows immediately after read Jeremiah 18:7-12 The Good news of the Gospel of our Saviour is for all. GOD DRAWS, Jesus paid the price, no Christian I know says we can save ourselves. We all need a Saviour. We can either accept Christ as Lord and Saviour or reject him.
Read in revelations all those who marveled at the beast whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundations of the world he for knew who would make it therefore giving those who he willed the blessing and the rest pouring out his wrath
So Calvinists believe we have free will to sin but we don’t have free will to choose/accept God? So some of us are basically damned by God before even being born??
Our free will, without the Holy Spirit, would lead us to sin. So in effect we would always do the wrong thing without Gods spirit correcting us. Unless God grants us the mercy and grace of Salvation, we arent going to be righteous and holy before God.
With all respect Jamal - there's NOTHING good in us, not in our hearts or minds. Only God can open the eyes of people who are born sinful from birth and are blinded by the enemy. Once He opened my eyes I have NEVER had a desire to turn my back on God because salvation comes from the Lord....not out of my own goodness (which there's none) That leaves NO room for boasting. Think about what Jesus said "Nobody can come to me unless my Father draws him to myself". What does that mean?
oh sorry brother- i thought you meant that we have the power to resist God's calling just like He called the disciples and Paul. He chose them first. :)
Guys like this never address the whole topic. They also never address the definition of sovereignty. It has nothing to do with complete control. That's not in the definition. God can be sovereign and still allow for free will. If you don't think so, you are putting God in the box. There are too many instances of people in the bible being given choices/chances by God to change their heart/mind. God even gave Lott the opportunity to change his mind.
Some people HATE the fact that they are not the master's of their fates, the captain's of their souls, God is. This was Adam's sin. He wanted to be in charge of his life. He didn't want God to be in charge. He wanted to do what he wanted to do and so he ignored God's warnings and he plunged all of mankind into sin. The fact that God is sovereign over everything is mentioned over 300 times in the bible. I find it interesting that the term free will is not found anywhere in the New Testament! To hear some people pop off about free will one would think the term is found hundreds of times in the New Testament. Humans have a will is but not free. Why isn't it free? Ephesians 2:2 speaks of "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience." Satan works in the minds and hearts of children of disobedience. They are under his power. Anyone under the power of another is NOT free, they are bound to their master until someone sets them free from that master. Who can set one free? John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free." The mere fact that this passage says that Jesus sets us "free" must mean that the person for whom He set free must have been under the power of another. Another thing I find interesting is the fact that Judas was predestined by God to betray Jesus yet God held him accountable for this act of treason! BUT God is not unfair. Isaiah 55:8-9 "“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
To define free will as the power of ultimate self-determination is inadequate and confusing. While we may have an ultimate plan in mind there are always situations that occur, that are beyond our control, and thus, we may not necessarily have the power of ultimate self-determination. Free will should be defined as the freedom to choose or not to choose. The Calvinist says that the elect freely choose to accept Christ, and yet, they admit that the elect do not have the option to decline the offer of Salvation. How is this free choice?? The Calvinist says that the un-elect cannot respond to the Gospel - they have no ability to choose. How is this free choice?? To say that God, in His sovereignty, determines all that happens while at the same time affirms man’s free will is impossible to understand unless you are a Calvinist. Jesus said, "you are UNWILLING to come to Me so that you may have life."
ST, your claim that I did not back up with Scripture goes both ways - Piper has not used Scripture to support his definition of free will. I disagree with his definition and I have stated why. I defined free will as the freedom to choose or not to choose and now I will backup with Scripture - Jesus said,” and you ARE UNWILLING to come to Me so that you may have life. “ The Jews exercised their free will and CHOSE NOT TO COME. My point is this - the elect CANNOT decline to come; how is this a free choice? You say, “It’s a Biblical teaching.” Now explain to me how this is a free choice if they could not decline to come. As I said, “The Calvinist claims that the un-elect cannot respond to the Gospel - they have NO ABILITY to respond or make a choice. How is this free will and where does the Bible say that the un-elect cannot respond to the Gospel. Calvinists like to say their teaching is Biblical but when it comes to the crunch there are no clear passages of Scripture to back up their claim. The following passages of Scripture also back up my argument that free will is the freedom to choose or not to choose - Acts 28:24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others WOULD NOT BELIEVE 27 For this people’s heart HAS BECOME CALLOUSED Heb 4:7 today if you hear his voice, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS. ST, now you use Scripture to back up your claim and also to show how I am wrong.
The LORD GODFATHER in CHRIST has also HIS Own Free Will and HE can direct your Free Will According to HIS Good Purpose in your life in Christ.Just Keep on thinking HIS LOVE and so many Eternal Good Spirits in Christ, because It is Eternal.
What people like John Piper fail to understand is the difference between man's inability to save himself and his inability to choose. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not through some sovereign dispensation of the ability to repent and believe. The power to transform is in HIS WORD! If we hear it, believe it, and choose to repent and follow Jesus we will be saved. It's like a seed when it is planted. There's no need for any sovereign work of God to bring the plant forth. It's already designed to do that when it's in the ground and watered. And the Word of God contains the power of God to transform us when we nourish it with faith and repentance. Those who do so are the elect, not because of God's sovereign choosing per se but because of what they did in response to His Word.
Jew and Greek surely that would only work if God were to enlighten the mind through the Spirit acting with the Word? Without the Spirit of God illuminating the heart and mind, there would be no possibility of our grasping the gospel in the first place. The Word is not some magical formula that you can just throw around and that will grow in and of itself. That doesn’t seem like a very biblical concept at all...
This guy is so inconsistent in his theology. He said in another video that God is sovereign over everything, including dust particles. But here he says God has no control over your moral choices. So which is it?
The new birth comes before faith, faith is the result of this new birth. God is not like who who can only influence but cannot bring about that which he wishes. We might not understand God's ways, why he chooses one and not another, but we take his at his word and believe. The Arminian will not do these. He tries to use human logic and sentimentality to provide an answer which is acceptable to him.
Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor.? Because God knows our choices, but that doesn't mean we dont have a choice. Calvinism is arrogant
Matthew 26:24. Jesus admits that it would've been better for Judas to have never been born. Therefore, the creation of Judas, assuming Calvinist theology, was an act of cruelty.
Shaun Schulte What an illogical syllogistic statement! That somehow all who are condemned to eternal punishment were born out of " an act of cruelty" (your terminology) means you accuse God of being unjust. My advice to you is to tread carefully concerning your choice of words. Understand please that It would have been better for all who are now in hell or who will eventually take up residence there, to have never been born. But God in His sovereign purpose allows people to be born and then for many to die in their sins, exercising His justice against the wicked. Do you complain against God's judicial right as Creator and Lord ?
@@r.crompton2286 Yes, I do. God has the sovereign right to do as he pleases (legal). That doesn't mean that the things he chooses to do must be good (moral). If God is your sole standard for what is good, then "God is good" is a tautology, and your standard is arbitrary. If, however, God's revealed character points to an objective standard of morality, then we question certain theological systems.
Shaun Schulte Since God is the sovereign Creator (for if He were not, then He wouldn't be God), He is and remains THE sole, moral standard. God is not accountable to anyone for His purposes, decisions, and judicial sentencing. He is neither "good" nor "bad" -- except in the eyes of small-minded individuals who have difficulty believing that their opinions/perspectives do not count in the grand scheme of things. Thus it is but vain to complain about God. It's safer for human beings to accept who He is and to fall upon their knees and beg for His mercy that they would be forgiven of their transgressions, cease their rebellion against His will and through a miraculous reconciliation, find eternal peace.
@@r.crompton2286 I appreciate your consistency, and the continued exhortation to repent. I can tell it comes from a place of genuine Christian charity. I'm not a Calvinist because I reject Platonic definitions of God. But if those were my starting assumptions, I would probably agree with you.
Shaun Schulte Our "starting assumptions" in understanding God are NEVER accurate. We grope aimlessly in attempting to discover the Truth and can only begin to think more correctly concerning His complex Person after we have truly been regenerated i.e. having received the indwelling and leading of the Holy Spirit. As we diligently read and meditate on Scripture, we attain to a deeper understanding of God through the imparting of Divine wisdom. It may be that Plato's views of God (and those of other philosophers) have some intersecting points with truth; however, they can never align correctly since their promulgations are not biblically centred. Insofar as choosing to stand under a particular doctrinal banner like Calvinism or Arminian theology, neither will matter in eternity. It will all depend on saving faith or the absence thereof. From your comments I can only conclude that you have not yet surrendered to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But if my assumption is wrong and you are safe in the Lord, then I would suggest you abandon the practice of trying to mentally devise an acceptable model of God that suits your fancy and concentrate instead solely on what the Bible teaches. In view of what you have shared with me, I would suggest a careful read of Romans Chapter 9, focusing particularly on vs. 13-23.
Jerome Savary Go outside, Take a look around. The Birds, The Trees, The Sky. It couldn’t come from nothing, It had to come from something. Scientist has discovered that the Space is Expanding, That would mean their must have been a beginning, now we must ask where did that beginning come from. Could it have come from nothing? We can say, the Big Bang, But you would need material for a Big Bang. Where did the material come from? It would have had to come from something. It couldn’t come from nothing. And due to the awesomeness of the galaxies, our earth and the way it’s all set up. It must have come from an intelligent design.
Jerome Savary God is outside of time, he has no beginning and has no end. Obviously if you’re coming onto pipers TH-cam you’re seeking some truth, pray and ask Jesus to reveal himself to you.
@@jeromesavary7033 Christianity instead of anything else because of historical consistency, doctrinal consistency (Islam cannot claim this, nor can Jews who deny Christ), and, though this may be useless to you, personal revelation. He delivered me from suicidal depression and continually softens and changes my heart.. And once you receive the Spirit of Christ because of the grace of God, you CAN NOT turn back. This I can promise you. It's like sitting in a sauna and trying to convince yourself that it's cold in there.
Calvinists guess WHO'S qoute It is: THE QUOTE: "Man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. 👉Yet none of these acts could he do👈, 👉except through the assistance of Divine Grace.👈 But in his LAPSED and sinful state, 👉man is NOT CAPABLE👈, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be REGENERATED and renewed in his intellect, affec- tions or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. 👉When he is made a partaker of this REGENERATION or renovation👈, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is CAPABLE of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, 👉but yet NOT WITHOUT the CONTINUED AIDS of DIVINE GRACE 👈." ANSWER choices: 1.)Augustine of Hippo 2.)John Calvin 3.)Jacob Arminius 4.)R.C Sproul 5.)A.W Tozer 6.)John MacArthur
God is too powerful Gg 😳🤪😛🤓 🤢sorry So how much free will does I have? Nvm. God still in control likely So does anything matter? Idk Nvm Evil madness? 😳 So god is in control or sovereign. Everything. Everything. ? But we have free will. but that free will is still in gods control 😳 Too much... thinking’s Oops?
So according to John Piper, God causes everyone to do whatever it is they do, including causing people to sin, then holds us accountable and damns us to Hell unless He specially chose you to be given saving faith. He made you for salvation or He made you for damnation. He causes you to sin and then says you're the one that's blameworthy. Yet Scripture says that God does not cause people to sin. Sorry John, you lack basic logical skills.
"The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all." Psalm 103:19 NASB
I have a young daughter. I believe she should have agency over her being, but I also know dangers she hasn’t experienced yet. Would I be a good mother to let her “free will” override my decision to stop her moving into traffic simply to give her choice? If I care about my people and I have every power to change it then I am not a good god.
@@MarnieGolde7 Yes true
I am born again, accepted Christ as my savior and am a child of God. God opened my eyes to my need for Jesus as a savior and my inability to achieve a sinless life. But I still need to willingly choose to die to myself daily, I still need to willingly choose Jesus over all the other desires, I still need to choose to willingly love God and fear Him over everything else. Hope that helps
Of course we are responsible to do all of that BUT God is the very reason your doing those things. He produces the desires to love and live for Him. If He left you to yourself you’ll choose your sin over Him everytime man. Read your Bible my boy and get understanding on your total sinfulness and God total sovereignty.
Read Romans 7
@@rs7458
Then follow that with Romans 8
After experiencing the Love and Peace of God's Holy Spirit, it's easy for me to understand, that God's Free Will truly, is not our own. I have a Faith now, that is totally rock solid.
Example:
Man's Freewill: To travel the world in year 2020
God's Sovereignty: Covid19, lock down
In my experience, some of the worst and best decisions I have made in my life have been under the INFLUENCE of either Satan or GOD. Our "free" will is influenced from above. "It's in whom GOD has mercy"..
Life altering right choices are integrally linked to our closeness to GOD. It is all about HIS GRACE and MERCY towards us.
Thank you for this video!! I've been questioning that question too. Thank you, John for opening up that one
Thank you very much! Going to the verses right now to get it all deeper into my brain!...
I just started this study and I'm definitely grateful that Desiring God has some videos on this topic!
Pastor John's point of view on marriage, divorce and remarriage has surely changed my life! Not necessarily to a pleasant one hahaha but to one that I really believe aligns itself to God's will!! So I can't wait to learn more about this topic from you!!!
Once again, thank you very much for all the amazing work you've been doing for the kingdom!!!
May God continue to bless all that you do!:)))
I have experienced the sovereignty of
God in certain choices I had made that
stopped me from falling into a bad
situation that would have been very
disastrous
Me too, praise God. Just like how God stopped Abraham, He has stopped me as well.🙏
Everything man.. See's, touch, feels, smells, have, even their selfs belongs to God he's the creator of everything, and yet he gives man.. "free will"
Personally have asked God to take my Free will away if I am about to make a extremely Foolish decision.
Facts
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
1 Corinthians 3:19
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”
Romans 11:34-36
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Calvinist translation: I don't choose to perform mighty works in Tyre and Sidon, but if I did, I would have chosen more of them.
There is a difference between self determination and free will. God allows evil to exist in the world and we have the free will to make choices to choose good or evil, but God is sovereign and determination and judgement is his.
❤amén❤!!!
God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.
A. W. Tozer
Tozer's has good material about various topics but when it come to the topic of God's sovereignty in salvation , he's not the best person to do serious research about this issue
His view comes from the full context of God's word. The same chapter that says God sits in the heavens and does as he pleases. Also says the heavens belong to the Lord but the earth has been given over to man. So I'd contend someone who follows a system made by Augustine that teaches divine determinism, contrary to the early church, apostles, and Jesus; isn't the best source to understand sovereignty. All they are doing is using Isegesis to read what they already believe, based on traditions made in the mind of man; rather then the clear word of God. I found during my time as a Calvinist, Instead of using biblical definitions the system redefines everything to fit their system. Really look into what the early church taught and if you seek Truth you'll see it. ❤
Sounds like you are a Catholic. Doesn't matter what the early church taught it's about what the bible teaches through exegesis of passages like John 6:37-44, eph.1:4, Romans 9 etc. I truly find that Arminians engage in poor exegesis, I was not impressed with Norman Geisler's exegesis of key passages in his book "Chosen by Free". Not to mention Dave Hunt who clearly misrepresents.
See and thats the the problem. To many it diesnt matter what Jesus taught and the church carried on for 300+ years to Augustine. What matters ot seems is how one man understood the bible. I encourage you to read what Jesus actually said, not what Augustine and Calvin think he said. When you read the early church you'll find they continued in the teaching of Christ and tradition of the apostles till the time of Constantine when everything got flipped around and the RCC was born. Augustine started teaching what Jesus taught and the church always believed. Then before his death he began to read the bible through his former Gnostic lenses and began what Calvin later systamatised. The Spirit of Truth was given to lead us into all Truth. I was a Calvinist and did not want to leave my beloved doctrines of Grace. God however had other plans. He humbled and corrected me, taking me through eph 1 and showing me my error. I then had to decide whether i was gonna follow God or men. Calvinism is not what the bible teaches, which is clear when you read objectively. It is a system made in the mind of man and built on the spirit of this world rather then on Christ. If anyone looks at the facts objectively and seek Truth, I've no doubt they'll see that. Not trying to fight just speak the Truth in love. I hope no one takes my word for it but instead is more noble like the bereans and sees for themself. Calvinism is hard determinism and an untenable way of life that causes young believers unneeded suffering. The whole calvinism arminian debate misses the point. Neither are correct and the whole division was brought about by the enemy of our souls to keep us from Truth and freedom in Jesus. But God is faithful. He disciplines and leads those who Love him.❤
@@jonathanchan7395 Church father like Irenaeus/Ignatius Ever Says Something like Exegesis of John 6 and Romans 9
amen . faith comes out of new birth.
2019 here
John 6:64-65, 2 Tim 2:24-25, 1 John 5:1, prov 21:1, Matt 12:36, Romans 14:12 Galatians 5:1, Romans 6:17-18
Thank you sir
Thanks Seth !
Seth Harrison
I see those passages differently than how a Calvinist would see them.
I’d like to look at the context with you if you don’t mind.
God bless
Seth Harrison umm god doesn't believe in freewill. he hardened the heart of the pharaoh when Moses asked him to free the Jews. so instead of allowing the pharaoh to exercise freewill, god hardened his heart. it gets better....god then tortured the Egyptians with plagues and the murdering of innocent babies because the pharaoh wouldn't free the Jews. I'd say that these are the actions of a sadistic god.
mark schiavone you're in a dangerous place. You think you can judge God. Do you think you know better than God?
Yep, he sure is. And thank God he is. Because our will is in bondage to a Sin nature
According to the Hebrews Scriptures we can all rest assured that our loved our ones grandparents, brothers, sisters, friends had there sin debt paid in full. They were included in Father YAHwen's PLAN from the beginning. I praise Father YAHweh for the blessed hope.
?
I don’t get it, how are we responsible if God forces us to have a certain will? What if he didn’t force any particular will? We probably would have made a different choice. So if someone could help me understand this I would greatly appreciate that.
yea i agree, if judas wasn’t granted the “belief” in christ how is he still condemned? It doesn’t make sense.
@@Thebronzezodbecause God said so. It don’t make sense but there’s nothing we can do about it. I guess the grace is we are the ones he chose to receive Christ.
Yes
For a Christian, The Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment would be farces if "free will to choose" was not true. Think on these things:. how could souls be judged and held responsible if they were predestined without free will? Is that just?.
Just playing the Arminian's Advocate here, but he mentioned Proverbs 21:1, but didn't Solomon's wives turn his heart away from the Lord? So if the ability to turn hearts makes one sovereign, then so were Solomon's wives. How would you respond?
God uses people to fulfill HIS Will. God allowed Solomon's wives to turn his heart.
I really appreciate Pastor John's answers to questions and he has really helped me to grow closer to Christ but base on his answer to this question i totally disagree for many reasons and i would state few of them
First Amos 3 vs 3 says can two work together unless they agree.
So i don't believe Man accepting Christ is a God's will or choice alone but i fully believe it's 100% God's will and 100% man's will in agreement to it.
I mean accepting Christ is viewed in the Bible as a marriage so if God is the only determinant of whether we marry him or not or if it's up to God to choose who he wants to marry and not even ask our hands in marriage then it's no longer a marriage but a snatchage or forcage ... you get the idea. So just like a marriage is an agreement between both parties and the coming to christ is viewed that way then I firmly believe accepting Christ is a Gods will not forcing it's way on anyone and abandoning others but asking the permission of others hand in union, marriage with him. Like Jesus would put it... If any man will follow me... Not I will choose some men to follow me... Or as God would say it... draw nigh to me and i will draw nigh to you... And not you draw nigh or you don't draw nigh I will catch you one day and draw nigh so much that you can't resist me...
I fully believe in these matters we have a role to play just as much as God has his to play
Por favor, algún hermano que lo pueda traducir al español. Dios les bendiga.
César Amundaray John Piper dice que Dios es soberano sobre el libre albedrío (cuando se define como "la máxima autodeterminación del hombre) como Jesús dice que nadie vendrá a Él a menos que sea otorgado por el Padre, por lo tanto, la gracia es un regalo y no simplemente una decisión que tomamos.
Agregaré a esto que creo que Dios nos da libre albedrío en nuestra escala (Él nos ama y quiere que sigamos su voluntad, sin embargo, tenemos la opción de desobedecer), pero finalmente encaja en su plan perfecto: la historia de José en el Génesis prueba que incluso si los hermanos de José se portaron mal, finalmente encajó en el plan de Dios.
El pastor John dice que no somos libres de elegir a Cristo (yo personalmente no estoy de acuerdo, aunque creo que Grace es un regalo, el amor de Dios asegura que nosotros, que lo buscamos, lo encontremos, entonces, en ese aspecto, nuestro libre albedrío juega un papel en la búsqueda de una nueva identidad en Cristo).
Espero haber ayudado un poco, no hablo español, así que utilicé google ^^
May I bring one point of difference?
Just because you are granted access to a king doesn't mean you will accept or take advantage of that access. You are probably a complete fool do deny a granted access to a king but there are great fools in the earth, that I do know.
Access to salvation is a gift from the Father, salvation itself is also a gift, but any gift can be rejected, which it's generally considered rude and arrogant to not accept a gift from someone.
Many people fall short of the grace of God, by denying it and its power, even though they are or have been recipient to it.
I believe that both God is completely Sovereign and man's will completely free. It is a great mystery. I have marveled and pondered this from a little boy but I have determined that if anyone claims to have the perfect answer to this is most likely wrong.
What's your capcity for mystery? Can the ways of God be unsearchable to you or do you need a god that you can fully understand?
Ecclesiastes 8:17
"I realized that no one can discover everything God is doing under the sun. Not even the wisest people discover everything, no matter what they claim."
If you completely believe that. Explain Romans 9 to me. You gave a lot of passages that in your understanding clearly reveals free will. I could do the same in passages that say the opposite. Some say we cannot reconcile this and it appears a contradiction. But God does not contradict Himself.
I personally believe there is an answer that only God can reveal.
Because the word says.
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the [d]Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth-in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
Then he continues and says;
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power.
T Saint 😂😂😂😂 dude I love Romans 9. Romans 9 is beautiful
God is sovereign, we are free.. we must choose God. Meaning choosing a relationship with him. (Take responsibility for our own soul, in a way become sovereign, like God) Choosing a relationship with God means pouring out your cup. Completely emptying what we think, or know what that is true. Being open to receiving his wisdom and love.The Bible is a spiritual book. I think time is not a line going straight forward. But in cycles. "nothing new under the sun". Meaning humans regurgitate the same shit over and over again.. until.. they choose Good. (Because he is beyond the sun, stars moon.. beyond creation and what is seen). To reach that height or dimension of thinking.. we have to die to the flesh. Meaning kill the beast. Also meaning, leave the world and human ways of thinking along.
Christ was the portal..like a door. If you understand his parables, I mean truly understand..it's because you have the holy spirit..and it is the beginning to wisdom.
So I’m responsible for all my choices even tho God is the one who determined what those choices would be?
Not sold on proof texting. I do appreciate the thoughts however.
If you quote John 6 then make sure you quote John 12. 6 says no man can come unless the father draws him. 12 says that when I am raised up from the earth I will draw ALL men to me. So he draws everyone. But once drawn through the gospel man must believe. It's not either or it's not either God is sovereign or man has free will. Both are true. God is sovereign AND he gives man free will.
God is self determining. But giving man free will doesn't affect God's will. God is so sovereign that even though we have free will he still has full control and his will be done.
True Christian man doesn’t have free will, we can’t choose God, we can’t approach god unless he grants it. We can’t save our selves. If we had free will we could stop sinning
Nice comment man! The problem though with just taking words and interpreting them with our understanding rather than knowing the context of the meaning is that we could come up with just about any belief we want to and say its biblical. So about John 12 the way I understand it... In Jesus days the Jews thought they were the only ones Jesus came for.. Jesus was basically saying, I didn't come to die for Jews only but for men of every kind.
I mean think of this, if we take only the exact words using our own understanding then John 12 would also mean that Jesus draws only men to himself and not women. But in context we know this isn't the case.
This would also be true when using the word "world." I mean we quote John 3:16 For God so loved the "world." With our understanding we assume this means every human on earth that's ever lived but look what 1 John 2:15 instructs us to do " Do not love the world nor the things in the world." Why would God love something and then tell us NOT to love it? Its all about keeping things in context. Sometimes world may mean all of nature, sometimes it may mean every human and sometimes it may mean people from every nation but not every individual, etc...
Ah...the danger of predestination.
The best way I've seen the topic addressed is this....PREDESTINATION FROM FOREKNOWLEDGE. God knows what you will do before you are ever born. While, in fairness, every man may be given a chance to believe, how far God will strive to draw you in comes from what He knows you will ultimately choose. God knowing you will ultimately reject Him DOES NOT MEAN God is a mean old man choosing to condemn someone to Hell. God didn't make you reject Him. God just knows the end from the beginning and knows the choice that (from his point of view) you have already made.
So, in a way, ALL have an "equal chance" to receive the gospel and be saved. God does not arbitrarily choose some and reject others...nor is God showing some twisted form of favoritism on who gets in and who does not. God simply KNOWS who will accept and who will reject. It is US who DO NOT KNOW where we will ultimately end up based on our choices.
I personally hold that "free will" is largely an illusion. If God is sovereign, our will does not matter and has no effect on the eternal. HOWEVER, God doesn't want people to choose Him out of fear or force...God wants us to FELLOWSHIP with Him...of our own free choosing. So, God denies us sufficient "proof" of His existence so we have space to doubt. This allows those who would rather live for themselves to reject God and believe there is no eternal consequence and those who have faith to believe to accept the gift of salvation.
@@qdllc that's a great way to put it. I share that point of view too
Free will is a delusion. From. ,9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Where does it say we have "free will"? Can this be PROVEN?
I think this type of thinking causes too many other obstacles. Yes I agree God is Sovereign over all... But that just means to me that nothing that is done is outside of his ultimate plan. For a God to give you free will and still know exactly what you will do and where you will end up, that speaks of an infinitly great unfathomable God and his wisdom. That's a God I believe in.
But if it's true that God gifts me the ability to believe and it's not of my own will that I come to surrender then why do we have church? Why do we preach every Sunday, trying to keep the body alive and train up disciples to preach the gospel... What goal do they have then?
The scriptures given in this lecture can easily be interpreted in a way that speaks of a God that is in control, he knows everything, every outcome, nothing, not even evil exists without Him allowing it, but the very existence of Evil is because of freedom of choice.
If Pastor John knew the answer to why Lucifer sinned then He would know that free will too choose God is given, and it was given for a reason.
All of this we go through on earth has a reason, and in the end it will Glorify God, and every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that God is truly a just, loving God and there is non other besides Him.
ST.JOHN.17:12=
HES RIGHT!!!!
This has to be one of the most dogmatic explanations I have ever heard without any specific conclusion on the matter altogether..
Grace is help. Not slavery.
Sounded like an thesis essay.
Simply put, the Word says clearly: "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."
Deuteronomy 30:15-20 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/deu.30.15-20.ESV
The Bible is FULL of examples of such things. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/jer.29.13.ESV
These are all clear signs of CHOICE AND FREE WILL.
Can't say I agree with the answer given 100%. The Word says clearly that those who ENDURE until the end... another sign of choice. The list is never ending.
The Lord says clearly that He wills that NONE shall perish... choice again. Free will.
It is by choice where grace abounds.. those who CHOOSE Him..
That verse isn’t talking about free will. It’s a commandment to follow the lord. What does everyone do in scripture? We don’t listen we do what we want to do.Our only will is sin, the heart is deceitful we only do what we know how to do...sin. Ephesians 2 says that we are “dead in our trespasses” along on that chapter it says God grants us the gift of faith. He gives us faith to believe to be made new. He grants us permission to believe when he said we were “dead” a dead person can’t do anything unless God draws us near. It’s his will be done. A gift is given to you. Not on your behalf but Gods doing. Everybody that believes is because God gives us that faith to believe because salvation is of the lord. Dig into the scriptures it littered everywhere.
@@BiG_SorD But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.
Romans 1:18-25 NLT
Read MORE, bro
John, I must also say, you're actually one of the core reasons my faith is broken. I was going through a long period of suffering in my life, thinking God was abandoning me. But I knew you were considered one of the most respected pastors in the Evangelical sphere, and so I turned to one of your videos for comfort and encouragement. But what came out of your mouth was that God did choose me to suffer and to ultimately be damned. I had never heard or conceived that God would be a God who would forsake me or damn me just because He felt like it. I was in my car, and I screamed from the depths of my soul, for you struck me and wounded me deep in my soul... A wound that almost 10 years later, has me hanging on by nothing but a thread, making me wish I'd just kill myself and have God send me to Hell and get it over with already. You were the start of the taking of my hope in Christ. You are a stumbling block, and the Scripture says woe to those who cause others to stumble, for it'd be better that an anchor be tied to their neck and cast to the bottom of the sea than to face the consequences for causing a believer to stumble.
I’m sorry to hear that! John can definitely be confusing or easily misunderstood because of the way he speaks sometimes. But I know he ultimately wants everyone to know God loves everybody, and also is in control of everything. I believe if you live this life rejecting God, you’ll live for eternity rejecting God in hell. Don’t do it! Question Him, plead with Him, wrestle with Him, be annoyed or frustrated at Him… but don’t lose faith that He is God and that he loves you and died for you! I’d give you a few Bible verses but sounds like you probably have read a lot of those and just need to have a heart to heart with God. Don’t give up! I’m praying for you!
Post a link to the article or video where you heard piper say that.
Any free will that man has, and that is very minimal, occurs within the confines of God's sovereignty. Thus, man has never been completely autonomous and never will be.
If you are too weak then how do you know that there is a god
@@Android-ds9ie you and all of us are too weak. Without God's mercy and grace, we are undone. All any of us can do is cry out. That kind of humility is what keeps us.
The word of God says, to him who thinks he stands to take heed lest he falls. Jesus also said in John 17 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
He continues and says; I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so, have I also sent them into the world.
In the context of all this Jesus prays we would be one in Him.
And for their sakes, I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither prays I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
@@tstjohn777 if your god has somuch power let him move the pen in my table atlease an inch but he cannot do that but I can pick the pen and throw wtf I am more powerful than god hahaha
Android 10.0 God absolutely can move the pen and has done far more than that such as creating the entire universe, parting the Red Sea, walking on water, calming storms, raising the dead, saving his elected people from his eternal/ deserved wrath, and so forth. You and I can throw as many pens as we want but even in our greatest abilities we could never amount to what he has done. God certainly could move that pen, and even throw the Earth straight into the sun if he wanted to. It is through his sovereign will that he chooses not to move the pen. I hope to see you in heaven someday
Here’s what I understand. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I want to be corrected, but I also want to start a discussion.
Grace is not a substance or a power, as if it’s a thing detached from God who gives it. Grace is God’s exercise of his kindness toward those who do not deserve it.
In Arminianism, salvation is totally of grace and not of man’s power. The grace to believe is provided beforehand and built in as a basic faculty of man from the beginning. But unsaved man cannot see spiritual things. Once revealed to him, he may believe or reject what he sees by the power he has been granted through prevenient grace (this may not be the best way to portray Arminianism. Forgive me, it’s complicated.)
In Calvinism, salvation is also totally of grace and not of man’s power. The grace is provided in the moment of salvation to regenerate a dead sinner. The sinner is granted both a revelation and faith to believe in the moment.
Friends, I hope I’ve portrayed both views faithfully in those short statements. Assuming so, which do you think lines up with scripture better? Is there another view that’s better than both? Is one or both heresy?
I appreciate your discussion about grace, and I'll tell you why. I grew up in the Arminian denomination Piper refers to, but I never heard of grace, or at least I never noticed it. Now this could be my own blindness, but I doubt it. In fact, this denomination seems more interested in seeker sensitive service than the grace of God. So in my tradition, I believed myself to be saved because I made a decision for Jesus with my free will. Or at least I trusted my religious upbringing. However, I could never reconcile how I, a mere man, could save myself. How could me deciding to say a sinner's prayer enact the will of God? It never felt right, and I always doubted my salvation (and rightfully so, as I've come to find out later in life). I even became a minister in this free will denomination, but gave it up after a few years because I knew in my heart I was a fake. Fast forward a decade, and now my marriage is in shambles. My wife and I split up, leaving our four kids with her. I'm a mess, living in my van, at the end of my rope. My worst fears have come true. I've been exposed and humiliated. So I turn to God. I started reading his words, the Bible. It had been a decade since I bothered to read his message to mankind. And in this time God saved me. God did his work upon my heart. Not me. I finally saw his grace. I knew God. I now know I'm saved because of him, not because of me. I don't believe I was saved before, like the majority of people filling our pews these days. I don't find God's grace is preached or emphasized all that much in free will churches...because it doesn't need to be. Why speak of God's grace when I choose or not whether to be saved? Oh, the deep, deep pride of man. I don't like classifying God's word and will by man-made structures like Arminianism and Calvinism, but I think you can see which way I lean these days. You need to understand I still attend this denomination with my family. I don't want to, and I fear for my family's false conversions. It's a hard pill to swallow, but I do believe today that Calvinism lines up with Scripture, despite my upbringing and my extended family's religious tradition. I am all alone in my conviction with everyone I know. But I know God to be sovereign in salvation. It's the only way. God's word doesn't seem to indicate that man has free will. I see that man is either a slave to sin or set free by Christ. Anyway, I could ramble on for pages. I'm not sure why you wanted to start a discussion, but I pray God's grace and peace upon you in your spiritual journey. PS. John McArthur said a smart thing about this debate: he sees both in Scripture, so he doesn't know, but he trusts God.
@@danderth Thanks for your testimony, brother! Gods grace is indispensable in salvation, and man’s effort and merit are filthy rags.
I fear for the many unconverted in the pews as well. I also fear for Christians dividing the body of Christ over these particular theological lenses. I think an Arminian can be saved the same way a Calvinist can be, if they both truly believe the gospel of grace. I’m also on the Calvinist side of things, though I had an Arminian influence growing up. It’s easy to fear losing your salvation when the power to believe is up to self. But an Arminian can believe that God saves us and keeps us as well as a Calvinist if they keep their ideas about free will in check.
@@nathanrobertsofficial1524 Thanks for this. I appreciate your spirit. I hope you have like-minded brothers in your fellowship to share your faith with. I keep wanting to find another church, but I'm not sure the grass will be any greener. I thank God for his grace constantly now.
@@danderth I hope you keep looking, though you may not find much just yet. Ask though, because you don’t yet know what God will lead you to. I’m praying for you and your family, that God would do great things and bring you to green pastures. If that means a new church that preaches the gospel of grace more accurately, or if it just means he edifies you where you are, so be it. He’s our good shepherd who feeds us. He prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemies (Psalm 23). But if your church is teaching falsehood, heresy, or just not preaching the gospel at all, but instead morality and virtue void of the gospel, don’t worry about not finding a better church right away. Just get you and your family away from that church. God will help you find another. Don’t let greener grass talk keep you under harmful influences, or from finding a gospel centered, Bible believing church.
There is misunderstanding about the 'will' here.
So if I ask God to have faith in Jesus he may or may not give that to me? Therefore anyone on this Earth may or may not be predestined to hell no matter how badly they want to be saved from damnation?
This is exactly what I'm struggling with. I'm not a Christian. I'm praying and utterly desperate, yet nothing. Calvinists seem to gloss over this issue.
@@koopeda so in essence what you are saying in a very polite way is that I should read the Bible, no matter how desperate the situation, there may not be hope? Then what is the point? I thought God said, whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED, not may be, not might be, not possibly may, but WILL be saved. What of what the verse says that it is NOT God's will that any should perish, but come to repentance? I didn't make these words up, they're in the Bible. Calvinists believe in once saved always saved, that is a lie. There are many scriptures that say otherwise, people have a choice, God doesn't hold us hostage like robots with no capability to resist or walk away. There are many verse about falling away, being deceived. If it wasn't a possibility those verses wouldn't need to be there in the first place. Thanks for your advice, but I'm on the verge of ending life. Your comments to just keep reading, and my fate is basically up to God is the worst slap in the face a person who is on the edge of a cliff can ever receive.
Mercedes Reynoso Mercedes Reynoso Id like to know more about your situation friend if I were to speak specifically about what you're going through- it does sound awful and I sympathize. But I thought I'd give some simple truths pertaining to the sovereignty of God as best as I understand. No Calvinist is promoting a lopsided view of Scripture where we discard certain truths- actually see Pipers own video about predetermination. So even if certain elements are beyond us, we hold both the verses Piper mentioned that God ultimately determines whether we will make the choice to be saved, AND the verse you mentioned (among others) that plead with us to call on the Lord and be saved. Paul who penned so many clear texts about predestination also pleads with his readers to be reconciled to Christ. So they're both true. It is God working in us, yes, that brings us to being saved, but the Scriptures guarantee you friend that if you profess Jesus as Lord and believe in His resurrection, you will be saved. There is no precedent to say God says no to those seeking repentance for in fact, it is His own prompting by the Holy Spirit which is the only reason I or anyone else ever accepted Christ. You're not blocked from salvation by God or anyone. God is prompting you. There is hope in Christ and you CAN accept it!
@@mercedesreynoso4318 don't study calvanism in order to become a christian. Put your faith in jesus to redeem you from the sin youve commited and commit to a lifelong relationship with Him and seek Him to give you life abundant and He will save you. Take up ypur cross and follow Him. Romans 10:9 john 15, John 17:3.
John 3:16 says "For God so loved the WORLD the WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." The Calvinist uses brilliant debate technics in refuting words so that they can make their doctrine fit. The Calvinist would reply to your concern that if you are wanting to be saved it is only God's Sovereignty over your human will that would allow you to seek Him. This issue has caused my husband and me to live in a House divided. There is no middle ground.
People please look up verses that use the word repentance. In no way does this idea of God making people repent make any sense in light of the hundreds of verses where God calls sinners to repentance. Why would God wait for people to repent? Why would he get angry when they don't repent? Why does he say unless you repent you will perish? If God is causing people to repent, these verses truly are strange.
Unless God regenerates you, you will never even desire to repent. Repentance is caused by the new life, the Christ life.
To say humans have no decisive causality is to say we are robots.
Sorry, but it is - if God has determined that I am saved, I can do anything I like, and I will still be saved.
I would say, God is sovereign, and he CAN control ANYTHING, but I feel he limits his control of me out of love.
If that’s false, then I’m a robot and nothing I do ultimately matters.
Matthew Human beings were never robots but became a ruined species, having lost through the Fall both our original perfection in innocence and the intimate communion with God. So drastic was this ruination that Scripture tells us fallen, corrupt mankind has no innate ability to understand God, seek Him or do anything good in His sight (cf. Psalm 14:1-3 ; 53:1-3; Rom. 3:10-13). Thus human beings, from the day of our birth, go astray (Psalm 58:3). We all follow a course in life that leads to death (both physical and spiritual) until such time as God intervenes by mercifully and graciously drawing souls to Himself (cf. John 6:37,44,65 ; Eph. 2:8,9 ; Titus 3:5). This display of effectual grace involves giving the Holy Spirit into the heart of man so that he learns to follow the promptings of the Spirit instead of his flesh (Rom. 8:3-5). True, the spiritually regenerated can do anything they want and still be saved; but they now possess different desires that fall into compliance with God's will to conform them into the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). That does not make them automatons because they still retain the ability to choose to follow their flesh, though to suffer discipline for any disobedience to God as per Heb. 12:6-13.
R. Crompton R. Crompton But if you are right, then people God hasn’t predestined to know him can NEVER know him.
Why would got make it impossible for large numbers of people to arbitrarily not know him? It’s a little disingenuous to say God has given us a free gift of Salvation through Jesus if many are not eligible
Matthew It is not our place to question/challenge God. But the answer lies within God's mercy and justice. He extends mercy to those who do not deserve mercy. That in itself shows that God is strangely loving to the objects of His love who as inveterate sinners, deserve no love. As Romans 5:8 states, "But God commended His love toward us [the saved/elect] that while we were sinners, Christ died for us." Love is extended and justice is satisfied in that Christ took the punishment for those whom God has purposed to redeem to Himself.God also dispenses His wrath on the guilty who justly deserve eternal punishment. Just how God chooses to extend mercy to some and pass others by is not understood. Romans 9:15-23 deals with this. We must accept that God has the judicial right to send all law-breakers to an eternal punishment. But for the purpose of His glorification, He cannot be accused of injustice; nor can he be accused of being unloving. Paul's rhetorical question in Romans 9:19 can only answered one way i.e. vs 20 ff. God fashions vessels of honour out of their sinful state and leaves others to be vessels fitted to destruction, according to His pleasure. That's difficult for us to accept but who are we to reply against God?
Romans 9
@@beelzzebub human reason.
But the bible says faith is a gift
Jacob Byrd, the Bible does NOT say faith is a gift.
Rom 10:17 FAITH comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
The word ‘it’ refers to saved, not faith. The object of this sentence is ‘saved’. The Bible clearly teaches that Salvation is the gift -
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He GAVE His only begotten Son, …
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the GIFT of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you LIVING WATER."
Romans 5:15 But the FREE GIFT is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the GIFT by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Did Jesus died on the cross for every single being? God bless you.
Greg Jay, you are forgetting other verses in the Bible that tell us that faith originates from God. Hebrews 12:2 says Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith; the whole thing is a gift of God, not of works. Salvation is the gift, but notice we are saved by grace through faith (two prepositional phrases telling us how we are saved, which means the whole thing is a gift) contrasted with "not of works." By your own reasoning, if the saved is the only gift in those verses, then the prepositional phrases "by grace through faith" isn't a gift. Yet the Romans 5:15 verse you quoted actually says the gift is by the grace of Jesus Christ. But the faith is from us? So, in effect, are you reading the verse like this: For by (the) grace (that comes from Christ) are ye saved through (the) faith (that comes from man), and that (only the saved part) not of yourselves (except your free-will choice), it (only the saved part) is a gift of God? Ephesians 3:7 calls grace a gift. Yet the Bible tells us the beginning of faith comes from God because 2 Timothy 2:25 tells us that God gives repentance and 2 Corinthians 7:10 says godly sorrow works repentance unto salvation, but sorrow of the world (the unsaved) works death. Notice the adjective "godly" describes the sorrow, which means it originates from God.
Also, it is impossible to please God without faith according to Hebrews 11:6. Yet many seem to think that faith is generated from the will of sinful man. Sinful man does everything in their flesh and by the reasoning of their carnal mind. Well Romans 8:5-8 tells us that to be carnally minded is death and the carnal mind is enmity (hostility) against God. And it also tells us anyone in the flesh (their sinful nature) can't please God. Here we have Bible verses that clearly tell us that sinful mankind has a hostile, carnal mind and that they can do nothing to please God. Yet we want to believe man in his own sin nature can muster enough faith (in their sinfulness) to trust the very God they hate (John 15:18-23). And Romans 8:9 contrasts the believer to the unsaved by telling us we are not in the flesh, but the Spirit. So Romans 8:5-8 clearly speaks of unsaved people. And yes, faith comes by hearing, but notice Romans 10:18 asks, didn't they not hear? Yet they weren't saved. So yes, faith comes by hearing, but it isn't just hearing the Word, it is hearing it with a new heart that only God can give because the unsaved person, in their own nature, can't discern spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14).
And finally, if man has the free will to choose Christ and just receive the free gift of salvation, does that same man have the free will to choose to leave Christ and not be saved if that is his desire?
Yes, but not an irresistible gift.
Free will is defined as a choice inherent in humans that even God cannot intervene. When the will is set according to God's decree, it is not free will. Most people try to think of free will as a simple free choice that is not coerced. The teachings of the Bible do not say that Adam and Eve, created by God in the beginning, had free will. Adam and Eve, who had no sin, or Christians who are now saved by believing in Jesus Christ, cannot overcome Satan's temptations on their own if they escape from God's tabernacle of grace. However, it is not at all unrighteous for God to withdraw for a while the tabernacle that God has always protected His people as the tabernacle of grace according to His decreed dispensation and predestined will. When God temporarily withdraws the tabernacle of grace, Satan tries to tempt God's people fall into sin. Even so, the cause of fallen man's sin is not God, and God is never unrighteous.
The only will that is free is The Will of God! The only will that man has on his own is a will of BONDAGE to sin and death
Read Ken Wilson's recent book "The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism" to see why Augustine went against the Early Church Fathers before him, and against 25 years of his own ministry in order to justify infant baptism. Since the child had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child. Therefore, Augustine had to deny free will.
th-cam.com/video/YTSEh1o8HdE/w-d-xo.html
So if no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him and no one can believe unless God gives him the faith to believe, how can man be accountable if he doesn't come to Jesus or doesn't have faith? God has chosen Whom He will save - or not save - man has nothing to do with it. This makes no sense. I cannot see how God can be loving, kind, just, or merciful when He picks and chooses who He will save and who He will not save. And the only explanation the Bible gives is in Romans 9:20-21. Please explain how this is just - that God determines who will be saved - before they're even born - yet man is to blame for his lack of faith and ultimate damnation.
Blame us for sin when we had no choice too sin then burn us in hell forever wtf
We have free will, to choose Jesus as Lord and Saviour. No doctrine will save anyone ONLY Jesus can save. but false doctrine will deceive and destroy
@@susiedyck4914 Lol false doctrine is that we can come By our own Cause to Christ,read John 6,Predestination is real
Read Romans 9
Yes, Predestination is real❤ predestination is mentioned 3 times in Scripture. In context it's written to the saints Ephesians1:1, already saved people, we are predestined to 3 things. To the Adoption-Redemtion Ephesians1:5, Romans 8:23(right now sprit of adoption Romans 8:15 and Galatians 4:5-6)
Predestined to for the inheritance Ephesians 1:11
Predestined to be conformed to Jesus' Imagine Romans 8:29. We will get these things when we meet Jesus.
Please could you provide me with scripture where we are predestined for either salvation or damnation.
We are told in Ezekiel 18:23 and Ezekiel 33:11 that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but wants them to turn from their wicked ways and receive life.
As for Romans 9 I'm assuming you are meaning where God loves Jacob and Hates Esau? My question is how is it possible for us who are the creation to love more then God, who is our Creator, who IS love, IS Holy who has no darkness in Him, Is perfect. We are told in Genesis 25:28 that Issac loved Esau.
My understanding in Romans 9:13 is that love and hate (Genesis 25:23, Malachi 1:2,3 which love and hate is written 1500 apart) are not matters of emotion; they are matters of the Fathers will. In the papyri (ancient secular writings dating to biblical times) the expressions " love" and "hate" are used of man who could afford to adopt only one of two twin orphaned boys. He was said to have "loved" the one he adopted and "hated" the one he did not adopt. If the father had two sons and made one heir, he was said to love the one he had made his heir and to hate the other whom he had not made heir. The words challenged Isreal to recognize the responsibilities inherent in its privileged position.
We are also commanded to hate our mother and father, and hate our lives, that doesn't mean literally hate, it just means love less, we are to love our life less than Christ and love our mother and father less than Christ.
Or do you mean Romans 9:20-21?
In the 16th century Europeans were not the original target audience Paul had in mind. The intended recipient of the Book of Romans was the mix of Jew and Gentile believers in Christ. They would have been familiar with the OT stories, passages, citations and references that Paul brings up the Potter of Jeremiah 18, the lineage of Messiah, Pharaoh and the judgement upon Egypt.
Here is Jeremiah's potter for comparison. So I went down to the potters house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of day was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do. Then the word of the Lord came to me: "Oh house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? Declares the LORD, Behold, like the day in the potter's hand, are you in my hand, Oh house of Isreal. Jeremiah 18:3-6.
Notice what happened to the clay vessel, it became spoiled. The potter did not toss the misshapen clay into trash. Vessels are used to carry contents, oil or perfume, or waste fluids- not specific purpose of being smashed and trashed.
And take heed what follows immediately after read Jeremiah 18:7-12
The Good news of the Gospel of our Saviour is for all. GOD DRAWS, Jesus paid the price, no Christian I know says we can save ourselves. We all need a Saviour. We can either accept Christ as Lord and Saviour or reject him.
the account you give to God is whether you believe on His Son or not...
5:44 4:49
8:26
Read in revelations all those who marveled at the beast whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundations of the world he for knew who would make it therefore giving those who he willed the blessing and the rest pouring out his wrath
So Calvinists believe we have free will to sin but we don’t have free will to choose/accept God? So some of us are basically damned by God before even being born??
Our free will, without the Holy Spirit, would lead us to sin. So in effect we would always do the wrong thing without Gods spirit correcting us. Unless God grants us the mercy and grace of Salvation, we arent going to be righteous and holy before God.
Karl Mostert we have the the option to choose to Accept the gospel or reject though
With all respect Jamal - there's NOTHING good in us, not in our hearts or minds. Only God can open the eyes of people who are born sinful from birth and are blinded by the enemy. Once He opened my eyes I have NEVER had a desire to turn my back on God because salvation comes from the Lord....not out of my own goodness (which there's none) That leaves NO room for boasting. Think about what Jesus said "Nobody can come to me unless my Father draws him to myself". What does that mean?
I was once blind but now I see of course no one can come to the father without him drawing us. It’s by the gospel bro
oh sorry brother- i thought you meant that we have the power to resist God's calling just like He called the disciples and Paul. He chose them first. :)
Guys like this never address the whole topic. They also never address the definition of sovereignty. It has nothing to do with complete control. That's not in the definition. God can be sovereign and still allow for free will. If you don't think so, you are putting God in the box. There are too many instances of people in the bible being given choices/chances by God to change their heart/mind. God even gave Lott the opportunity to change his mind.
Some people HATE the fact that they are not the master's of their fates, the captain's of their souls, God is. This was Adam's sin. He wanted to be in charge of his life. He didn't want God to be in charge. He wanted to do what he wanted to do and so he ignored God's warnings and he plunged all of mankind into sin. The fact that God is sovereign over everything is mentioned over 300 times in the bible.
I find it interesting that the term free will is not found anywhere in the New Testament! To hear some people pop off about free will one would think the term is found hundreds of times in the New Testament. Humans have a will is but not free. Why isn't it free? Ephesians 2:2 speaks of "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience." Satan works in the minds and hearts of children of disobedience. They are under his power. Anyone under the power of another is NOT free, they are bound to their master until someone sets them free from that master. Who can set one free? John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free." The mere fact that this passage says that Jesus sets us "free" must mean that the person for whom He set free must have been under the power of another.
Another thing I find interesting is the fact that Judas was predestined by God to betray Jesus yet God held him accountable for this act of treason! BUT God is not unfair. Isaiah 55:8-9 "“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts."
To define free will as the power of ultimate self-determination is inadequate and confusing. While we may have an ultimate plan in mind there are always situations that occur, that are beyond our control, and thus, we may not necessarily have the power of ultimate self-determination.
Free will should be defined as the freedom to choose or not to choose.
The Calvinist says that the elect freely choose to accept Christ, and yet, they admit that the elect do not have the option to decline the offer of Salvation. How is this free choice??
The Calvinist says that the un-elect cannot respond to the Gospel - they have no ability to choose. How is this free choice??
To say that God, in His sovereignty, determines all that happens while at the same time affirms man’s free will is impossible to understand unless you are a Calvinist.
Jesus said, "you are UNWILLING to come to Me so that you may have life."
Greg Jay you give NO scripture because what you attest isn’t biblical. It’s not a Calvinist belief it’s a Bible teaching.
ST, your claim that I did not back up with Scripture goes both ways - Piper has not used Scripture to support his definition of free will. I disagree with his definition and I have stated why.
I defined free will as the freedom to choose or not to choose and now I will backup with Scripture -
Jesus said,” and you ARE UNWILLING to come to Me so that you may have life. “ The Jews exercised their free will and CHOSE NOT TO COME.
My point is this - the elect CANNOT decline to come; how is this a free choice?
You say, “It’s a Biblical teaching.” Now explain to me how this is a free choice if they could not decline to come.
As I said, “The Calvinist claims that the un-elect cannot respond to the Gospel - they have NO ABILITY to respond or make a choice. How is this free will and where does the Bible say that the un-elect cannot respond to the Gospel.
Calvinists like to say their teaching is Biblical but when it comes to the crunch there are no clear passages of Scripture to back up their claim.
The following passages of Scripture also back up my argument that free will is the freedom to choose or not to choose -
Acts 28:24 Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others WOULD NOT BELIEVE 27 For this people’s heart HAS BECOME CALLOUSED
Heb 4:7 today if you hear his voice, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.
ST, now you use Scripture to back up your claim and also to show how I am wrong.
Read up on the internet why Piper calls himself a 7-point Calvinist. Then I hope you will understand him better.
Yes for God clearly says, "Choose this day" also the Bible clearly says "Today is the day of salvation"
Calvinists!! 🥱
The LORD GODFATHER in CHRIST has also HIS Own Free Will and HE can direct your Free Will According to HIS Good Purpose in your life in Christ.Just Keep on thinking HIS LOVE and so many Eternal Good Spirits in Christ, because It is Eternal.
What people like John Piper fail to understand is the difference between man's inability to save himself and his inability to choose. Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not through some sovereign dispensation of the ability to repent and believe. The power to transform is in HIS WORD! If we hear it, believe it, and choose to repent and follow Jesus we will be saved. It's like a seed when it is planted. There's no need for any sovereign work of God to bring the plant forth. It's already designed to do that when it's in the ground and watered. And the Word of God contains the power of God to transform us when we nourish it with faith and repentance. Those who do so are the elect, not because of God's sovereign choosing per se but because of what they did in response to His Word.
Jew and Greek surely that would only work if God were to enlighten the mind through the Spirit acting with the Word? Without the Spirit of God illuminating the heart and mind, there would be no possibility of our grasping the gospel in the first place. The Word is not some magical formula that you can just throw around and that will grow in and of itself. That doesn’t seem like a very biblical concept at all...
@@TheB1nary The bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit sooo....
This guy is so inconsistent in his theology. He said in another video that God is sovereign over everything, including dust particles. But here he says God has no control over your moral choices. So which is it?
According to Christianity, no. God never forces himself upon anyone. God cannot control our eternal destination; only we can do that.
The new birth comes before faith, faith is the result of this new birth. God is not like who who can only influence but cannot bring about that which he wishes. We might not understand God's ways, why he chooses one and not another, but we take his at his word and believe. The Arminian will not do these. He tries to use human logic and sentimentality to provide an answer which is acceptable to him.
Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor.? Because God knows our choices, but that doesn't mean we dont have a choice. Calvinism is arrogant
Matthew 26:24. Jesus admits that it would've been better for Judas to have never been born. Therefore, the creation of Judas, assuming Calvinist theology, was an act of cruelty.
Shaun Schulte What an illogical syllogistic statement! That somehow all who are condemned to eternal punishment were born out of " an act of cruelty" (your terminology) means you accuse God of being unjust. My advice to you is to tread carefully concerning your choice of words. Understand please that It would have been better for all who are now in hell or who will eventually take up residence there, to have never been born. But God in His sovereign purpose allows people to be born and then for many to die in their sins, exercising His justice against the wicked. Do you complain against God's judicial right as Creator and Lord ?
@@r.crompton2286 Yes, I do. God has the sovereign right to do as he pleases (legal). That doesn't mean that the things he chooses to do must be good (moral). If God is your sole standard for what is good, then "God is good" is a tautology, and your standard is arbitrary. If, however, God's revealed character points to an objective standard of morality, then we question certain theological systems.
Shaun Schulte Since God is the sovereign Creator (for if He were not, then He wouldn't be God), He is and remains THE sole, moral standard. God is not accountable to anyone for His purposes, decisions, and judicial sentencing. He is neither "good" nor "bad" -- except in the eyes of small-minded individuals who have difficulty believing that their opinions/perspectives do not count in the grand scheme of things. Thus it is but vain to complain about God. It's safer for human beings to accept who He is and to fall upon their knees and beg for His mercy that they would be forgiven of their transgressions, cease their rebellion against His will and through a miraculous reconciliation, find eternal peace.
@@r.crompton2286 I appreciate your consistency, and the continued exhortation to repent. I can tell it comes from a place of genuine Christian charity. I'm not a Calvinist because I reject Platonic definitions of God. But if those were my starting assumptions, I would probably agree with you.
Shaun Schulte Our "starting assumptions" in understanding God are NEVER accurate. We grope aimlessly in attempting to discover the Truth and can only begin to think more correctly concerning His complex Person after we have truly been regenerated i.e. having received the indwelling and leading of the Holy Spirit. As we diligently read and meditate on Scripture, we attain to a deeper understanding of God through the imparting of Divine wisdom. It may be that Plato's views of God (and those of other philosophers) have some intersecting points with truth; however, they can never align correctly since their promulgations are not biblically centred. Insofar as choosing to stand under a particular doctrinal banner like Calvinism or Arminian theology, neither will matter in eternity. It will all depend on saving faith or the absence thereof. From your comments I can only conclude that you have not yet surrendered to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But if my assumption is wrong and you are safe in the Lord, then I would suggest you abandon the practice of trying to mentally devise an acceptable model of God that suits your fancy and concentrate instead solely on what the Bible teaches. In view of what you have shared with me, I would suggest a careful read of Romans Chapter 9, focusing particularly on vs. 13-23.
double talk
ive come to realise john never directly answers the question but dances around the topic which makes listening to these videos a waste of time
You first have to prove god exosts
Jerome Savary Go outside, Take a look around. The Birds, The Trees, The Sky. It couldn’t come from nothing, It had to come from something. Scientist has discovered that the Space is Expanding, That would mean their must have been a beginning, now we must ask where did that beginning come from. Could it have come from nothing? We can say, the Big Bang, But you would need material for a Big Bang. Where did the material come from? It would have had to come from something. It couldn’t come from nothing. And due to the awesomeness of the galaxies, our earth and the way it’s all set up. It must have come from an intelligent design.
@@VupzyPlays you have made an argument from ignorace fallacy. How does nature prove god exists?? Where did god come from??
Jerome Savary God is outside of time, he has no beginning and has no end. Obviously if you’re coming onto pipers TH-cam you’re seeking some truth, pray and ask Jesus to reveal himself to you.
@@VupzyPlays how do you know he is outside of of time?? Why jesus and not allah or zeus or apollo ir krishna??? Prayer is useless
@@jeromesavary7033 Christianity instead of anything else because of historical consistency, doctrinal consistency (Islam cannot claim this, nor can Jews who deny Christ), and, though this may be useless to you, personal revelation. He delivered me from suicidal depression and continually softens and changes my heart.. And once you receive the Spirit of Christ because of the grace of God, you CAN NOT turn back. This I can promise you. It's like sitting in a sauna and trying to convince yourself that it's cold in there.
Calvinists guess WHO'S qoute It is:
THE QUOTE:
"Man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge,
holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform
the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. 👉Yet none of these acts
could he do👈, 👉except through the assistance of Divine Grace.👈 But in his LAPSED and sinful
state, 👉man is NOT CAPABLE👈, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is
really good; but it is necessary for him to be REGENERATED and renewed in his intellect, affec-
tions or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly
good. 👉When he is made a partaker of this REGENERATION or renovation👈, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is CAPABLE of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, 👉but
yet NOT WITHOUT the CONTINUED AIDS of DIVINE GRACE 👈."
ANSWER choices:
1.)Augustine of Hippo
2.)John Calvin
3.)Jacob Arminius
4.)R.C Sproul
5.)A.W Tozer
6.)John MacArthur
Probably Jacob because of the words AID of divine grace 😉. Happy to be wrong
Could be an argumentative question by the devils advocate. .Totally unecessary question put to the limited understanding of humans .👎
God is too powerful
Gg 😳🤪😛🤓
🤢sorry
So how much free will does I have?
Nvm. God still in control likely
So does anything matter?
Idk
Nvm
Evil madness? 😳
So god is in control or sovereign. Everything. Everything. ? But we have free will. but that free will is still in gods control 😳
Too much... thinking’s
Oops?
Silly explanation of God's sovereignty... gibberish.
This teaching is blasphemous! God is not the author of sin..
Piper never taught and has never taught that God is the author of sin. Blasphemy averted
So according to John Piper, God causes everyone to do whatever it is they do, including causing people to sin, then holds us accountable and damns us to Hell unless He specially chose you to be given saving faith. He made you for salvation or He made you for damnation. He causes you to sin and then says you're the one that's blameworthy. Yet Scripture says that God does not cause people to sin.
Sorry John, you lack basic logical skills.