Learn more about the true marks of church growth and the pride that plagues all Christian leaders. In this video: Kevin DeYoung, Matt Chandler, Mark Dever
Loved this: “You aren’t a mature Christian unless you can root for other Christians.” By extension, you aren’t a mature church unless you can root for other churches.
Voddie did a message published in 2011 on youtube on Church Growth and it is very good and especially eye opening, it's about worshipped, regeneration.
I go to a bigger church. I know some people go for status and some go to get lost in the crowd. But then you have a group that goes to this church because it is a very solid with its teachings and it has a lot of ministry opportunities to get plugged into. Theologically it is a reformed church but it is also very missional. BUT it is a multi site church. However every site has their own lead and associate pastor with their own group of elders and deacons. They stress the major difference between attending and being a member. My wife and I are members. They held 2 , 3 hour classes and dug deep into your life with the expectation of when you join you serve the body. I have grown exponentially while in this church.
Interesting discussion. Geography has to be a main driver. In the Houston and Dallas area there are 57 megachurches alone. There are over 200 mega churches in Texas.
But I have also been to a church that used this thought as an excuse to why they are not growing. In reality they have other issues they don't accept that drives people away
A shepherd knows his sheep by name (St. John 10:3). Jesus had numerous followers but all left him except the twelve. It is impossible for a shepherd to really know 13,000 members of his church. Most of them are strangers to him.
+Bro. Glover While I see your argument and am sure you have much more wisdom in this area, I believe it would be mistaken to use Jesus' discipleship of the 12 as an understanding of the local church and to even say that the 12 were His only disciples. Allow me to explain. First, the church was not founded until after HIs death resurrection ascension and then the indwelling of the Spirit.. Jesus was not a local church pastor, He was the Messiah and the Great High Priest. He told Peter that He would found His church on the Rock (not Peter but Himself). And, historically, the founding of the Church as a whole is considered to be at the event of Pentecost, after Christ's resurrection and ascension. Second, His discipleship has never ceased, and the universal Church are all currently His disciples. Also He is still alive to this day, just not in physicality.So, if I extrapolate the logic behind your argument, Jesus is currently the head of the Church as a whole, which is far greater then 12 or 10,000. So then, if your theology on this held up and Christ's discipleship is to be our numeric goal, then we should all be mega church pastors (I say this tongue in cheek.) Third, to take heed of the apostle's ministry, Paul's main disciple, Timothy, pastored one of Paul's main "church plants", corinth. This church grew to such a large extreme in Timothy's pastoring that they were forced to meet in the colosseum, which was one of the largest building in western civilization at the time (Imagine gathering in the Dallas Cowboys stadium.) I do not say any of this to discount small churches, but to condescend pastors of, while it may be popular, is not biblical. I say this in love and wish you the best brother glover! and If I am wrong in this, and you have some further explanation, I legitimately want to hear it, I am always up for a good civil discussion. God Bless brother!
+Zachary Monroe Zachary, come on now. I guess you know that churches (building created to house a lot of Christians) did not come into being until between 313 & 325 AD. The early Christians met in homes, (all over the areas where the y lived), rented rooms, the synagogue (if they were allowed) etc. I know of no reference in the New Testament of Christians meeting in huge a Colosseum. It was very dangerous at that time for a large amount of Christians to meet together in one place on a constant basis. Because the Scribes & Pharisees and even the political leaders of the roman empire considered them a threat to their power and ruler ship. Too many people meeting together that do not follow the Law of Moses or they are planning to rebel against our true God, Caesar. Too many of them meeting in one place, they would have been slaughtered.
Read Deuteronomy 1 and see how Jethro instructed Moses to shepherd over a million jews exiting Egypt...God is the God who owns wisdom, which He gives liberally, just like He did for Solomon who had to shepherd a whole nation of Israel. Just putting a biblical slant on this. It will come with difficulties, but, it is possible.
From what I gather- Chandler is a pastor and leader of a bunch of pastors. When he talks about empowerment- that's what I gather he's referring to. I'm assuming though I think it's a safe assumption- he knows he can't pastor 13,000 people- but in terms of a larger perspective on one element of the C. I think since this time- though I don't know for certain- Village has let go of one of it's sister churches in part of that larger community as it's grown to be able to stand on it's own which I think would reduce that number.
Yeah, I like Francis Chan's notion of home churches. I'd *love* to find one -- my big church feels soul-less and makes me uneasy being in such a crowd, where you rarely talk to the same person thrice. As a teen I went to a home church, and it felt so warm. We all knew each other so well and stayed for hours after the service, having lunch and talking. My weekly Bible study feels more like what I read in the Bible about church. The big gatherings actually bore me dreadfully, because I'm so desperate to make real connections with those who love whom I do. Small talk with someone new every week is far from a "family."
Big churches (100+ people) feel soul-less to me. Rarely talk to the same person twice. *All about the small-talk.* I find smaller churches warm, where people are easy to get to know. And you notice when someone is not there, to ask after them and follow up. Far more like a family.
From time to time while watching Gospel Project videos, I hear something that is troubling to me. I hear pastors talk about what it takes to "join" their church. I hear that there is a process to ensure that new members believe what they believe. Sounds like membership requires more than believing in Jesus. If this is true, it sounds pharisaical (John 9:16). It seems to me that the only qualification to "join" the church is believing in Jesus and then individuals grow as disciples through the preaching and teaching of the Word and fellowship with other believers.
but some first level issues can still make worshipping in the same church hard - like a disagreement on Baptism (babies or people who have confessed faith) rightly splits Presbyterians and Baptists. They are both Christians but it wouldn't work to be in the same church
100+ people in a church is an excellent group with critical mass to probably be able to pay a pastor across generations. The only reason someone with a church with 100 people would feel like they're only "hanging on" would be videos like this.
I think what wasn't addressed was the impersonalization that comes with a big church. I mean, you can slip in and out for decades and no one holds you accountable. Also, the extra expense that goes into accommodating such large crowds. A 30 member church can be expected to sit on folding chairs, but 10,000 members can't. In the end, I think it comes down to whether the priorities are met. If it isn't possible with a large congregation, then a new church needs to be birthed.
The answer I think is yes and no- to the really important tenants of Christianity and the faith- no. To being a pragmatist- and being able to do work and operate- yes.
My team recently did a research on church size. Details can be found at: link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13644-013-0116-3 Abstract: Despite the proliferation of megachurches, it is unclear how the size of a religious organization affects its members. Two opposing assumptions are (1) size is a liability and (2) size is an asset. According to the first assumption, size negatively impacts the religious attitudes and behaviors of church attendees through the reduction of motivation and a loss of coordination (Hypothesis 1). According to the second assumption, a large church benefits from the economies of scale, and therefore size positively influences religious attitudes and behaviors (Hypothesis 2). A third possibility is that the outcome variables are curvilinearly related to size (Hypothesis 3). Using an Asian sample, we compared congregants from churches of different sizes to evaluate these hypotheses empirically. Analyses of cross-sectional and longitudinal data revealed that although churches of medium size (501-1,000 attendees) may be more successful in attracting and retaining believers more committed to their religion and positive about their congregation, they are no better or worse than smaller or larger churches in fostering religious commitment or building relationships among the congregants. Furthermore, our data showed that larger churches are more effective than smaller ones in preserving the “vertical” aspect of faith maturity. They are, however, less effective in fostering a sense of bonding among attendees. Thus, both Hypotheses 1 and 2 received partial support. A sweeping statement of whether being large is good for a religious organization and its attendees cannot be made.
“Before I get beat up for being faithful”. Hubris much?? 🙄 This guy is oozing with pride! Evangelicals pastors have something to learn from the Catholic Church and the parish model. It’s not “Your” church!
If you as a pastor cant personally grow with your congregation, then the church is too big. You should have other pastors and elders lead their own assembly, who are all connected together through articles of faith or a common confession but independent, probably a multi-site instead of just one big church.
Big Church = Not a Church, A pastor can't do the intended and laid out job if he has more than several families to look after. A hundred + is already too big. Too many churches have become business. Pastor isn't supposed to be a paid position, and growing the members is the whole point in maturity, not evangelism. That is a church extra curricular activity outside it's own meetings for those with the appropriate gifts.
@@subjecttochrist 2nd thessalonians chapter 3 is the only indication in the bible anywhere that specifically discusses this topic. Many people try to use other scriptures and mold it to fit the outcome they want but the only real direction we get is 2 Thes. Where it is made clear that they are by example showing that those who work in the ministry, even by our modern full time standard should also do work with their own hands to make money to "buy their own bread".
@@subjecttochrist as far as your 2nd question this is basic logic and reality. Reading through the various letters in the new testament the purposes and duties of a pastor are quite clear as well as requiring intimate knowledge of those in his care. Once you get beyond a certain amount of people it just isn't possible to maintain the proper relationship. Our modern churches do not follow the precepts or examples given in the word of God.
Dr. H , for part #1: after reading Thessalonians, there’s no indication that a pastor should be unpaid, that’s a huge assumption and reading into the text that you’re doing. “For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10 “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."” 1 Timothy 5:17-18 Why would laboring in the word, not be considered work worthy of a wage, when it is so clearly outlined in scripture, using the example you gave in Thessalonians, and seeing the consistency in Timothy?
Yeah people on a very regular basis just as I described before use Timothy here totally out of context for just this purpose. Honor and wages are not the same at all.
I find it amazing that they talk church membership, but no one talks about how the Church Structure is not of God. A Church should be led by a plurality of Elders with the gifts or Pastor and Teaching. It is amazing how we just care about numbers and not if the church is being obedient.
+Randy Williams Funny you say that, it would seem so on the surface, but when you look at the small print under advertisement, you will see were The Village Church go beyond what is written. Matt Chandler is the "Teaching Lead Pastor"? How does these titles fit with Jesus teaching in Matt 23:1-12 NASB Can you tell me where in Scripture do you see a "pastor" referred to as a title or office? All who has the office of Elder should be able to teach and shepherd (two verbs, two spirtual gifts) the flock. No such thing as a "Lead Teaching Pastor" or title of "Pastor"; in fact Jesus teach us not to place title on ourselves. Christ work through a plurality of Elders (God given office ) who are servants, mature in the Spirit, meets biblical qualification, and have the gift to teach and shepherd. That is it. Do not go beyond what is written.
I'm not entirely sure where your problem lies in this specific situation. I'm right with you that God's ordained method of leadership is a group of Biblically qualified elders.... and that is exactly how the Village Church is set up. As far as job specifications and responsibilities, obviously different titles are given to different guys, but that doesn't mean that they have MORE authority or some weighted vote or something. Also, you make it a point to not give titles... If that is the case, why did Paul ordain offices within the church?
Does size matter?? I don't know? Does a drunk associate pastor and sexual abuse allegations matter? Pastor, Shephard has the implication of one who is loving his flock in a tangible and meaniful way. Impossible to love in this way @ 10k people.
Loved this: “You aren’t a mature Christian unless you can root for other Christians.” By extension, you aren’t a mature church unless you can root for other churches.
You aren't a mature Christian unless you can root out non Christians. 😁
If you grow. PLANT NEW CHURCHES with their own Elders and deacons. It's that simple.
You always have to set up the Piper-cam. 8:00
agarfield2004 "piper-cam". haha. that's awesome.
Haha - drinking Diet Coke, too!
There are so many megachurches where the gospel is watered down that I am very leery almost suspicious of churches of that size.
Voddie did a message published in 2011 on youtube on Church Growth and it is very good and especially eye opening, it's about worshipped, regeneration.
I go to a bigger church. I know some people go for status and some go to get lost in the crowd. But then you have a group that goes to this church because it is a very solid with its teachings and it has a lot of ministry opportunities to get plugged into. Theologically it is a reformed church but it is also very missional.
BUT it is a multi site church. However every site has their own lead and associate pastor with their own group of elders and deacons. They stress the major difference between attending and being a member. My wife and I are members. They held 2 , 3 hour classes and dug deep into your life with the expectation of when you join you serve the body.
I have grown exponentially while in this church.
Interesting discussion. Geography has to be a main driver. In the Houston and Dallas area there are 57 megachurches alone. There are over 200 mega churches in Texas.
Yes, and I would add that there is a team mentality/tradition that brings many people (families/close friends) into those mega-churches.
11:55 seeing Joshua Harris broke my heart
NO NO AND NO its not about #'s its about the spiritual maturity of the congregation
But I have also been to a church that used this thought as an excuse to why they are not growing. In reality they have other issues they don't accept that drives people away
minute 14:20 you understand the gospel, when you confess your sins to one another
A shepherd knows his sheep by name (St. John 10:3). Jesus had numerous followers but all left him except the twelve. It is impossible for a shepherd to really know 13,000 members of his church. Most of them are strangers to him.
+Bro. Glover While I see your argument and am sure you have much more wisdom in this area, I believe it would be mistaken to use Jesus' discipleship of the 12 as an understanding of the local church and to even say that the 12 were His only disciples. Allow me to explain. First, the church was not founded until after HIs death resurrection ascension and then the indwelling of the Spirit.. Jesus was not a local church pastor, He was the Messiah and the Great High Priest. He told Peter that He would found His church on the Rock (not Peter but Himself). And, historically, the founding of the Church as a whole is considered to be at the event of Pentecost, after Christ's resurrection and ascension. Second, His discipleship has never ceased, and the universal Church are all currently His disciples. Also He is still alive to this day, just not in physicality.So, if I extrapolate the logic behind your argument, Jesus is currently the head of the Church as a whole, which is far greater then 12 or 10,000. So then, if your theology on this held up and Christ's discipleship is to be our numeric goal, then we should all be mega church pastors (I say this tongue in cheek.) Third, to take heed of the apostle's ministry, Paul's main disciple, Timothy, pastored one of Paul's main "church plants", corinth. This church grew to such a large extreme in Timothy's pastoring that they were forced to meet in the colosseum, which was one of the largest building in western civilization at the time (Imagine gathering in the Dallas Cowboys stadium.) I do not say any of this to discount small churches, but to condescend pastors of, while it may be popular, is not biblical. I say this in love and wish you the best brother glover! and If I am wrong in this, and you have some further explanation, I legitimately want to hear it, I am always up for a good civil discussion. God Bless brother!
+Zachary Monroe Zachary, come on now. I guess you know that churches (building created to house a lot of Christians) did not come into being until between 313 & 325 AD. The early Christians met in homes, (all over the areas where the y lived), rented rooms, the synagogue (if they were allowed) etc. I know of no reference in the New Testament of Christians meeting in huge a Colosseum. It was very dangerous at that time for a large amount of Christians to meet together in one place on a constant basis. Because the Scribes & Pharisees and even the political leaders of the roman empire considered them a threat to their power and ruler ship. Too many people meeting together that do not follow the Law of Moses or they are planning to rebel against our true God, Caesar. Too many of them meeting in one place, they would have been slaughtered.
Read Deuteronomy 1 and see how Jethro instructed Moses to shepherd over a million jews exiting Egypt...God is the God who owns wisdom, which He gives liberally, just like He did for Solomon who had to shepherd a whole nation of Israel. Just putting a biblical slant on this. It will come with difficulties, but, it is possible.
From what I gather- Chandler is a pastor and leader of a bunch of pastors. When he talks about empowerment- that's what I gather he's referring to. I'm assuming though I think it's a safe assumption- he knows he can't pastor 13,000 people- but in terms of a larger perspective on one element of the C. I think since this time- though I don't know for certain- Village has let go of one of it's sister churches in part of that larger community as it's grown to be able to stand on it's own which I think would reduce that number.
Yeah, I like Francis Chan's notion of home churches. I'd *love* to find one -- my big church feels soul-less and makes me uneasy being in such a crowd, where you rarely talk to the same person thrice. As a teen I went to a home church, and it felt so warm. We all knew each other so well and stayed for hours after the service, having lunch and talking. My weekly Bible study feels more like what I read in the Bible about church.
The big gatherings actually bore me dreadfully, because I'm so desperate to make real connections with those who love whom I do. Small talk with someone new every week is far from a "family."
Big churches (100+ people) feel soul-less to me. Rarely talk to the same person twice. *All about the small-talk.* I find smaller churches warm, where people are easy to get to know. And you notice when someone is not there, to ask after them and follow up. Far more like a family.
Too much emphasis on numbers, not enough emphasis on discipleship & spiritual growth
'Tis the way of the Evangelical.
The discussion was on growth. Go look at the discussion of growth vs discipleship.
From time to time while watching Gospel Project videos, I hear something that is troubling to me. I hear pastors talk about what it takes to "join" their church. I hear that there is a process to ensure that new members believe what they believe. Sounds like membership requires more than believing in Jesus. If this is true, it sounds pharisaical (John 9:16). It seems to me that the only qualification to "join" the church is believing in Jesus and then individuals grow as disciples through the preaching and teaching of the Word and fellowship with other believers.
but some first level issues can still make worshipping in the same church hard - like a disagreement on Baptism (babies or people who have confessed faith) rightly splits Presbyterians and Baptists. They are both Christians but it wouldn't work to be in the same church
You say it doesn’t matter, but how many small church pastors get calls to speak?
100+ people in a church is an excellent group with critical mass to probably be able to pay a pastor across generations. The only reason someone with a church with 100 people would feel like they're only "hanging on" would be videos like this.
Quantity isn't necessarily the Church, doesn't mean everyone is born again. Another thing is what are we preaching?
amen!
I think what wasn't addressed was the impersonalization that comes with a big church. I mean, you can slip in and out for decades and no one holds you accountable. Also, the extra expense that goes into accommodating such large crowds. A 30 member church can be expected to sit on folding chairs, but 10,000 members can't. In the end, I think it comes down to whether the priorities are met. If it isn't possible with a large congregation, then a new church needs to be birthed.
The answer I think is yes and no- to the really important tenants of Christianity and the faith- no. To being a pragmatist- and being able to do work and operate- yes.
nobody pastors 10,000 people... he may pastor a group that then pastors others... but he can not pastor 10,000 people
My team recently did a research on church size. Details can be found at: link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13644-013-0116-3
Abstract: Despite the proliferation of megachurches, it is unclear how the size of a religious organization affects its members. Two opposing assumptions are (1) size is a liability and (2) size is an asset. According to the first assumption, size negatively impacts the religious attitudes and behaviors of church attendees through the reduction of motivation and a loss of coordination (Hypothesis 1). According to the second assumption, a large church benefits from the economies of scale, and therefore size positively influences religious attitudes and behaviors (Hypothesis 2). A third possibility is that the outcome variables are curvilinearly related to size (Hypothesis 3). Using an Asian sample, we compared congregants from churches of different sizes to evaluate these hypotheses empirically. Analyses of cross-sectional and longitudinal data revealed that although churches of medium size (501-1,000 attendees) may be more successful in attracting and retaining believers more committed to their religion and positive about their congregation, they are no better or worse than smaller or larger churches in fostering religious commitment or building relationships among the congregants. Furthermore, our data showed that larger churches are more effective than smaller ones in preserving the “vertical” aspect of faith maturity. They are, however, less effective in fostering a sense of bonding among attendees. Thus, both Hypotheses 1 and 2 received partial support. A sweeping statement of whether being large is good for a religious organization and its attendees cannot be made.
What does not matter how many are in the church, but how many are disciples and sold out for Jesus or a desire for that.
You can’t pastor 10,000 people.
You delegate it to 20+ other pastors that are actually pastoring.
He behaves like a clown, not a pastor.
They must be big enough to pay the rent or upkeep.
“Before I get beat up for being faithful”. Hubris much?? 🙄 This guy is oozing with pride!
Evangelicals pastors have something to learn from the Catholic Church and the parish model. It’s not “Your” church!
I understood that to be humor or sarcasm, not pride... He is preemptively making fun of some of his critics whose criticisms are not always valid.
If you as a pastor cant personally grow with your congregation, then the church is too big. You should have other pastors and elders lead their own assembly, who are all connected together through articles of faith or a common confession but independent, probably a multi-site instead of just one big church.
For the record I am very much against large churches..
insert cliché here
Big Church = Not a Church, A pastor can't do the intended and laid out job if he has more than several families to look after. A hundred + is already too big. Too many churches have become business. Pastor isn't supposed to be a paid position, and growing the members is the whole point in maturity, not evangelism. That is a church extra curricular activity outside it's own meetings for those with the appropriate gifts.
can you provide scripture for your claims?
1. Pastor isn't supposed to be a paid position
2. 100+ members means a church is too big?
@@subjecttochrist 2nd thessalonians chapter 3 is the only indication in the bible anywhere that specifically discusses this topic. Many people try to use other scriptures and mold it to fit the outcome they want but the only real direction we get is 2 Thes.
Where it is made clear that they are by example showing that those who work in the ministry, even by our modern full time standard should also do work with their own hands to make money to "buy their own bread".
@@subjecttochrist as far as your 2nd question this is basic logic and reality. Reading through the various letters in the new testament the purposes and duties of a pastor are quite clear as well as requiring intimate knowledge of those in his care. Once you get beyond a certain amount of people it just isn't possible to maintain the proper relationship. Our modern churches do not follow the precepts or examples given in the word of God.
Dr. H , for part #1: after reading Thessalonians, there’s no indication that a pastor should be unpaid, that’s a huge assumption and reading into the text that you’re doing.
“For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.”
2 Thessalonians 3:10
“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."”
1 Timothy 5:17-18
Why would laboring in the word, not be considered work worthy of a wage, when it is so clearly outlined in scripture, using the example you gave in Thessalonians, and seeing the consistency in Timothy?
Yeah people on a very regular basis just as I described before use Timothy here totally out of context for just this purpose. Honor and wages are not the same at all.
I find it amazing that they talk church membership, but no one talks about how the Church Structure is not of God. A Church should be led by a plurality of Elders with the gifts or Pastor and Teaching. It is amazing how we just care about numbers and not if the church is being obedient.
+Robert Brooks The Village Church is led by a group of elders.... So......
+Randy Williams Funny you say that, it would seem so on the surface, but when you look at the small print under advertisement, you will see were The Village Church go beyond what is written. Matt Chandler is the "Teaching Lead Pastor"? How does these titles fit with Jesus teaching in Matt 23:1-12 NASB Can you tell me where in Scripture do you see a "pastor" referred to as a title or office?
All who has the office of Elder should be able to teach and shepherd (two verbs, two spirtual gifts) the flock. No such thing as a "Lead Teaching Pastor" or title of "Pastor"; in fact Jesus teach us not to place title on ourselves.
Christ work through a plurality of Elders (God given office ) who are servants, mature in the Spirit, meets biblical qualification, and have the gift to teach and shepherd.
That is it. Do not go beyond what is written.
I'm not entirely sure where your problem lies in this specific situation. I'm right with you that God's ordained method of leadership is a group of Biblically qualified elders.... and that is exactly how the Village Church is set up. As far as job specifications and responsibilities, obviously different titles are given to different guys, but that doesn't mean that they have MORE authority or some weighted vote or something.
Also, you make it a point to not give titles... If that is the case, why did Paul ordain offices within the church?
Robert Brooks
Yes
Does size matter?? I don't know? Does a drunk associate pastor and sexual abuse allegations matter? Pastor, Shephard has the implication of one who is loving his flock in a tangible and meaniful way. Impossible to love in this way @ 10k people.
They are like asking Bill Gates, how does it feel to have such amounts of money?
Lol, you guys have over 30?
The Arrogance is Disgusting!