Fortnite: The Party That's a Platform
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- So I started playing Fortnite again, and that got me thinking about Fortnite again, and then... well, this happened.
Cited Works And Stuff:
It's Not Coming Back: tevisthompson....
Manufactured Discontent: • Manufactured Disconten...
GDC Vault: Game Design Challenge: The Love Story: www.gdcvault.c...
![[UNCUT] “บอสณวัฒน์” ลากไส้!! ใครหนุนหลัง "แม่ตั๊ก ป๋าเบียร์" I คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ I 30 ก.ย. 67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QlD7mU2KKRk/mqdefault.jpg)
A game with cartoon gun violence, a poorly-supported competitive scene, a fairly young audience, paid in-game animations for player expression, crassly commercialized cosmetics and tie-ins, and a mix of people screwing around socially and trying to win within the same server? Man, I miss 2012-era Team Fortress 2.
As someone who was 12 years old when TF2 went F2P this whole video kinda felt like deja vu. The main difference I see with Fornite is you're swapping the genuine although shitty and bigoted 4Chan custom community with the safe but shallow intersection of pop culture IPs.
I thought about the parallels before and I am surprised I heard noone talk about thus before.
Like the cartoon style lightheartedness and possibilty to just play a whole other game on the side, combined with a lot of space for sillyness. And lot of weird skins and 'emotes/taunts'. Even events like halloween reflect a bit the events happing in fortnite
F
you remember when new items were twelve dollars? the store hasn't changed, the social identity has.
and yet Fortnite has managed to tap into the public sphere in a way TF2 never could.
I was fully expecting a comparison to TF2 instead of Super Smash Bros. towards the end of the video
Let's be clear on this: Crunch is never worth it. As good as video games can be I really think we should value people's mental and physical well being first.
There is still a difference between the perpetual crunch of an ever-changing online game such as Fortnite and the final crunch of some AAA title that is essentially finished at some point.
Dex I’m a game developer in one of the UKs biggest studios. We don’t crunch, we don’t clock in or out and we have tones of benefits. We are not civil engineers, we need a clear mind to make these things. This, end of the day is a piece of art, not a road.
There are plenty of games out there that prove that you can push out a good game without hurting people's mental (and sometimes physical) health. Crunch isn't a medal of a hardworking team, it's a sign that someone on the upper ends of the chain, whether that be producers, directors, or a board of investors, is screwing up.
The best general isn't the one that wins the most battles, it's the one that wins the war and brings his troops home safe.
@@hackworthGW The difference is that the former lasts longer than the latter.
@Dex Crunch is mainly a consequence of sub par project management.
"something of a Mad Max beach party"
Waterworld, you're talking about Waterworld
No one talks about Waterworld 🌚
@@IvanMosquito specially the actors :P
I loved it
Weren't they spending the whole movie trying to find dry land?
I thought Shenmue already held the title of "The Waterworld of video games"
38:25 Big studio games are just full of meta irony only possible in late capitalism these days. Noah Gervais also pointed out that RDR2, a game about reconciling with oneself and living the most out of life through connections, was made with insane crunch hours that no doubt deprived dev team members with opportunities of forming connections and caused no shortage of mental issues.
@ModernNetMonk777 Hades is proof of exactly that kind of design philosophy. At least by their own reporting, Supergiant Games never forces crunch, but DOES force its devs to take a vacation. (And I can believe it. At least in the interviews I've seen, those guys are really passionate.)
My 15 year old brother lives, breaths and eats Fortnite, but not in a way I ever experienced growing up. Sure, I had games where I would lock myself in my room for a few days and do nothing else, maybe grab some merch, but I literally mean his life is built around the game. He communicates with his friends through it, he structures his routine around when tournaments and events are scheduled, he asked for all his birthday presents to be swapped for gift cards he could spend on it. I always thought the "live service" moniker was hokey, but for him that's actually what Fortnite is. A service to structure his life around.
its seems your brother got the social mmo bug. do your self a fav try to get your little brother
Bartle taxonomy test
@@thomaskrogh85
What is this test ?
That's actually quite scary, I'm sure he loves it but, to be that enveloped in a product scares me.
@@Uniquename12345a It's about determining your motivations as a player: matthewbarr.co.uk/bartle It's pretty neat, but can also be used to over-generalize how players will act if people aren't careful with it.
That's all well and good but how much does it cost your parents?
As someone who works on the Epic Player Support team and before working for them was already pretty critical on the business before working there It kind of made me more critical of it. Every week I get a couple of email which pretty make me pretty concerned about those kids relation to the in-game cosmetic but this maybe amplified because I mainly handle brazilian tickets so the fact that 2500 vbucks costs like 8% of our minimum wage. I end up hearing some pretty sad stuff.
However I really agreed with your positive points about Fortnite and as I have come to get more familiar with the game your analysis made more clear to me some points that I was already formulating on my mind.
Great video as always Chris!
One thing needs to be clear : the monetization isn't "to keep developpers eating". The game could stop updating and keep millions of players bringing more than enough cash to pay for the whole team salaries.
The reason Epic crunches its workers to death is that doing so makes the profits go crazy and there's no end to the hunger for money of the shareholders ; the more it brings the more they demand.
TL;DR developers of the world unite !
its literally slavery at that point.
really hope more devs can/are able to unionize soon and are able to negotiate better working conditions. it’s unacceptable how the industry exploits peoples’ passions so the executives and shareholders can make even more money.
@@nathane.9286 I'm kinda glad I don't have a dream job because it seems like having such jobs can make you a slave to your passion and make you overwork yourself in the name of it. Or overwork to avoid losing the job due to looking out for your health.
Yeah, I always thought Campster was a lefty, kinda confused there were no overt jabs at capitalism.
The first half of this video is the first thing to ever interest me in playing fortnite.
The back half reminded me why I have no intentions of ever playing it.
My first impressions of the game were mediocre at best, and it now seems those first impressions were misguided, but everything I hear about the context of the game is pretty awful in a lot of ways.
Hypothetically you could play the game forever without ever giving Epic a dime. Although I guess playing it for free would still be supporting the rather toxic community it has constructed. I don't know. I feel like I'd have fun with the game sans all the monetization.
That's how I operate with games now. However fun a game is, awful monetization cuts any desire I have to play it. You want to prey on people with lootboxes, battlepasses that constantly remind you to spend more, etc? I'm not going to touch your game.
I've played it a bit. It's a pretty fun fast-paced party/relaxation game that's not too serious and can be great to play with friends. Not so bad, really.
Hard same. Also, I have to say, any interest I have in Battle Royales at all come from that tense tone that pubg hits so well. So the cartoonified, dance party version of that is very much not something I want in my life :T
@@ElkiLG I can't stand a monetization system in a paid game. Neither I can stand pay2win monetization in free games.
But Fortnite is different, in my opinion. Because...
1) Every skin has no competitive advantage. It's visual, entirely optional. It's not pay2win. Building mechanics are 100% skill based. If you're a good builder and you have good aim, you win. That's all. You don't need to spend a dime.
2) There aren't lootboxes. What you buy in the store is what you get. There are not hidden probabilities. No gambling.
3) You can buy the battle pass for free. Each season has a battle pass with free vBucks (300), so you could get enough vBucks to buy the battlepass (950) in 3-4 seasons. Once you buy a battlepass, you always get more than enough vBucks (1300) to buy the next one for the next season successively. Also, the battlepass was actually free in season 8, so you could claim it and, once leveled up (which is not particularly difficult), you get more vBucks that it costs, you can even buy things from the store for free.
Finally, I'd like to say that the events in Fortnite are incredible. I'm not talking about Party Royale, which basically consists in a livestream video inside the game. I'm talking about big real-time events inside the game like Astronomical: th-cam.com/video/wYeFAlVC8qU/w-d-xo.html
There is no other game which does this kind of live events in real time at the level of Fortnite. Please watch the video and judge by yourself. Also, contrary to what is said in this video, the emotes specifically made for the concert were available for everyone for free during the event (once the event ended you could buy them in the store to use whenever you want, but during the concert they were free).
In this video, he should have talked about this kind of events, not the Party Royale ones, which are very simple. Big events happen in real time in the BR map of Fortnite, they are unique experiences with its own effects, animations, characters... Party Royale is an entirely separated mode with its own small map. It has not dedicated effects or assets, it always has the same effects for every event. It's an extremely different experience.
The Great Gatsby comparison was a chef’s kiss good observation.
Yeah that's a really nice one.
It wowed me too.
Yeah damn 👌
So we move on, boat against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
Fotnite, a game that I do not play but that I can not seem to escape from.
Welcome to being old.
@@Robert399 A lot of Gen Zers I know don't touch Fortnite with a ten foot pole. That perception that it's the "youngin's game" is partially a commercial ploy to impart upon it an air of longevity.
I mean, like it or not, it IS a goddamn juggernaut within the industry, so it's certainly worth the attention of critics.
@@lyserberg I know. I'm one of them. But these days it seem a generation is only about 5 years.
@@lyserberg it’s still literally the most popular game out right now after 3 years. I think they’ve cracked the key to maintaining longevity...
Ya know, Errant, I saw this video and initially rolled my eyes because I was expecting another bland one dimensional "critique" of Fortnite and that it's a kiddie game but you actually put into words what I genuinely enjoy and hate about fortnite into a video. I really have to thank you for that.
That and also while watching the video, it made me realize how fortnite in 2018-2020 just feels like TF2 from 2011-2015: A game thats built around being a shooter but also having decent social aspects that allows itself to not be taken seriously.
I believe it was Jim sterling that pointed out that kids have been bullied for using the default skin
I mean during Christmas they gave out 2 free skins
@@a1goldenrunner But they're still free. They're better than default skins, but people (mostly kids) will still see them as lesser than paid skins.
@@nastyhunnter I mean they're not my favorite but it does let f2p players have some customization
@@a1goldenrunner But, as Campster talks about in this video, Fortnite uniquely sets up the social space for that bullying to occur and does nothing about it because the social pressure benefits them financially. I'm not saying the Fornite execs want overt bullying but evidently they'd take both over neither.
@@Robert399 It's making them money, not that the environment was purposefully designed for it, but still
"the ability to self express is placed at a premium" that's capatalism, baby!
I'm reminded a lot of my time playing TF2. TF2 was, in the end, a game about winning. Not so much about winning the match as it was getting killstreaks. But TF2 was also a social game in many ways. Unlockable emotes evolved from little animations to dances to interactive minigames of rock paper scissors or flips. TF2 also allowed for much more elaborate costumes than most of the non-Fortnite Battle Royal games Campster mentioned, and the game was low-lethal and small-scale enough that your enemies could appreciate those costumes. And TF2 would have little mini-quests on many of its Halloween maps based around gathering rubber ducks or fighting a giant monster eye or whatever.
It'd be really interesting to do an in-depth comparison of the two. TF2's cosmetics didn't even get patched in until a couple years after release, whereas Fortnight was designed around having them.
Great comment which should be higher. Also I wrote something similar somewhere. There are a lot of parallels for sure
As someone else mentioned, it’s interesting that TF2 came out in a state that was not intent on cosmetics and social gameplay in the same sense. And honestly once it went F2P, I hopped out because I was seeing the same sort of behavior cropping up as what we see in Fortnite.
The other really big change is that TF2 had (has?) a big custom map making community. In my opinion as a former map maker, it became harder and harder to want to map as the community that played changed so much too.
And it’s still a big game, which is insane.
@@Artersa As someone who played tf2 after the f2p update, it doesn't really give me the same "vibe" as fortnite. I I think the monetization of TF2 is lot less "exploitative" as you are always getting something of value. Spending 25 dollars or so on a hat means you're getting a hat worth 25 dollars or so. (i mean obviously not in the mann co store but no one ever uses that)
That's partially why I feel TF2 has the good parts of Fortnite without the extra cynical corporate bullcrap. Since even the cross promotions are a lot less grimy.
Your Great Gatsby comparison was extremely on point, and should be more highlighted, rather that tucked away near the end.
Agreed!
The video is structured in two parts tho. wouldnt make sense unless he restructured his argument
About games inside games: Runescape classic has a guild that delivers items to new players if they don't have them at hand and need them to complete a quest. There's a guild in Eve Online that will rescue players that are stuck in the middle of nowhere without any fuel.
How do players, specifically new ones, don't just leave the game instantly after that situation in EVE?
@@TheOblomoff Better question: how do new players even start PLAYING EVE Online? O_o
@@TheOblomoff probably because they want to see how they can get away from the situation they are in, not everybody loves to rage quit when things don't go their way, sometimes is more fun to stay around and see how the hell did you end up in that mess
*Gaming Embedded | My Month As A Fuel Rat* - _The Gaming Discourse_
th-cam.com/video/MepXqkG5ES0/w-d-xo.html
@Dale Twokey EVE has the Signal Cartel, who can give assistance to players finding themselves locked inside a wormhole without a way out.
Fortnite being properly critiqued and looked at from a variety of open-minded perspectives without falling into typical stereotypes? Impossible
And this is why Errant Signal is my favorite games channel.
@@RoamingAdhocrat A knight errant is a guy in armor and on a horse who "fights against evil" by doing errands for a beautiful lady, who's also his platonic love.
@@VashdaCrash @Roaming Adhocrat "Errant" just means "wanders around".
Oh, thank god. Fortnite always interested me in a weird way (sort of a neutral ground between "fascination" and "cynical observation"), but I could never find any actual takes on it that weren't "bad because popular" or "shameless clickbait". Happy to see someone take a critical lens to it.
+
+
Yes
@@ginxxxxx It doesn't particularly incentivise winning, though, which is kind of the point. You get more rewards for doing silly one-off things than you do for playing to win.
@@ginxxxxx... There is footage of him playing the game in the video. What?
I can't believe you actually changed my mind regarding Fortnite. I've always seen it as some cancerous fad that my collegues kids constantly play but I never played it myself. Seeing this video made me a bit more humble.
Same. Now I gotta think twice before believing something popular is purely one way or another, it probably has many facets.
"...has an audience that's under 18...there's always super smash Bros" oof. Maybe the kids should stay away from the competitive scene for a minute while the pedos are cleared out.
I keep seeing references to that but I'm completely out of the loop, and at the same time I don't want to google and go through a lot of it. Do you have any link that summarizes what happened (or if it's short enough and you don't mind you could tell me directly).
@@Pulo747 all three top 3 2016 smash bros player admitted to having sex with underage children/trying to.
@@naknaknak7501 hey, dabuz ain't a kiddie gripper. That we know of.
I misread the title as, "The party that's a problem." Definitely colored my expectations :P
As a _very competition-averse_ gamer, I think Fortnight's experiments with almost-asymmetrical gameplay sound fascinating and definitely don't get enough credit. I hadn't even heard about them until this video. But then when we loop back around to the damaging business practices, I land back on the things that stopped me from ever checking it out.
When I was in junior high, my Fortnight was Halo 2. I'd go over to my buddy's house and we'd grab snacks and goof off until 4 in the morning. I had no chance of beating him, but as long as he wasn't being a dickhead about winning, we made tons of good memories. Especially when we put competitive play on the back burner and focused on co-op or stunts or getting Scorpion tanks to copulate with each other. We didn't need to drop an extraneous $80 on skins, and we didn't need the developers to work themselves to death to churn out new content all the time. We made our own fun with a game that got released _once._
I think the most cynical thing is that AAA developers have all but forgotten the couch co-op _that allowed us to host our own parties,_ where we could physically spend time with those we love -- and now charges us extra money for content that imperfectly mimics the charm of time spent in-person.
Ironically Fortnite does have couch co-op, but you're right.
I read it the same way, glad I'm not the only one.
I agree with you. My experiences were similar on the 360 with BF3, Halo 3 and Reach. It was all about messing around with friends for simple enjoyment. Nowadays it’s like an avalanche without end due to constant upgrades and updates. It’s just too much and I feel bad for the younger gamers.
It's kinda ironic that you mention crunch and halo 2, as the latter is infamous on having one of the worst crunches in game history ever.
As for couch coop, fortnite offers splitscreen on consoles.
I had a similar experience with garry's mod over the last few months. I've used it to connect with my one remaining friend from high school after I graduated a few months ago, and although we usually do some of the more competitive shooting type stuff, a lot of the fun is in just... messing around. New content is easy to find because of the modding community, and it's all free.
Diversity of play is what made me fall in love with battlefield while games like COD never captured my attention
Yes the gameplay is all about capturing the objective but because is a huge map with so many players and so many variety in the 4 classes you have:
Transport simulator
I cant fly but ill try
World of tanks (and a lot of rpg)
Tower defense
Sniper showdown
"I Need Healing" the game
Spot and go see
World of warships
Let's dance
We are enemies but let's be friends
King of my hill
I'll have my revenge
Pacifist in a war zone
Ninjas
This gun sucks but ill use it anyway
Cluster Fuchs of a map
And so much more in one game, and thats without the achievement hunt and Easter eggs
The "Diversity of play" is what made this game last so long and Fortnight seems to realize this,
Yes the game is an ever changing world but the amount of stuff to do in it and at your own pace and style is what's great about it, I never hated this game like many others do for some reason, I mean Is rare for me to play it at all, but because I already left the "hard-core gamer face" behind a game that rewards fun over competition is a given for once
You pretty much hit the nail on the head with describing the bigger-scale BF gameplay. I've played the series regularly since BF2 and stopped at 4, but I admit that the sandbox aspect of the series was at its peak during the BFBC2-BF3 days, which was part of why I loved the series so much.
You could focus on capping on all flags and win, but also get your squad of friends and fuck around with vehicles, maybe troll some players sitting in tanks or sitting in a camping spot, sniping (Maybe you remember all of those BF trolling vids that were blowing around at the time). And the way BF was designed let you switch from "fuck-around mode" to serious mode pretty much instantly when shit does go down.
The only problem I really had with were the people sitting in OP Helicopters racking up kills and booting people who dared to defend themselves with rocket launchers.
Which is also the reason why I enjoyed Hardline a lot because those people barely existed and you had the most freedom in there.
That's what I love about Battlefield in an era where every game is trying to be an e-sport. What hope can you, one scrawny human, possibly have to meaningfully affect the outcome of a 32v32 match? Once you realize your actions are pointless it suddenly becomes liberating.
Space Station 13 is a game built out of this idea that I personally enjoy to no end. Some people are playing surgeons who have to perform surgery, some play the chemists who produce the drugs used during these operations, some play the police officer injured in the line of duty protecting a janitor from "The Thing" because a Clown left a banana peel in an unexpected location
That waving hand from Manufactured Discount video still invokes in me serious anxiety 🙈
Y'know, the whole dance aspect of Fortnite reminds me a LOT of the dance parties that'd happen in the capital cities in World of Warcraft, and the taunt parties in Team Fortress 2. If there's one thing I think of when I think of the Engineer in Team Fortress 2, it's a bunch of them doing that country hoedown dance atop their dispensers, while Cotton-Eye Joe blares over voicechat.
Hey, that was super good. I always expect nuanced analysis on this channel, but this was doing something really particular in balancing a positive examination of something derided for being too childish and an effective criticism of a model that can be harmful for that vulnerable audience.
"two pieces of criticism that are largely at odds with each other, at times explicitly so"
Me that very second: It's Olson vs Thompson ain't it
As someone looking for a social game to make friends in... I've never been so persuaded then dissuaded by the same video.
Very well done analysis.
I remember OG Fortnite with the old teaser from years and years before actual release. “Dead on arrival,” I thought.
The first thing i think of is the Dan Olson video, and there it is in the description! Looking forward to watching this.
I paused to read that condemnation of Gris, because when someone has an uncommon opinion, I'm always curious to learn what their reasons are. It's one of the most poorly written reviews I've ever read.
Tevis seems to not understand that a review is more than just saying "I liked it" or "I didn't like it" over and over again. They(?) even make claims about the game's content, and about real life, that are objectively, demonstrably false: The game avoids monotony by constantly changing the visual landscape and the mechanics you use to interact with it. Grief, trauma, and depression are NOT always specific. For example, many people are depressed because of the continuous, ambient force of capitalism. And in the game, no dialogue box ever pops up to tell you that the player character's grief represents all grief.
That "It's not coming back" article is the epitome of fluff. Can't imagine reading the whole thing, but it reads like a flight of thoughts that would rather dance around subjects rather than focus on substance.
His review of Deadcells was also just super wrong and showed he hadn't played enough to complete a game loop and figure out one of the games core difficulty/progression systems.
"The Cycle"' (made by yager, of Spec ops the Line fame) might be worth looking at as where the design of battle royal might go, adding pve content that both fills downtime and brings players into each other for fights. It also adds a system where you can team up in match (with the option to betray each other) which captures a part of battle royal fiction I think other games lack?
Cycle is alright. I wish it had a larger population.
You like Fortnite, wait til you try Raid: Shadow Legends!
*no.*
Lol
Kill me.....
My cousins are big into fortnite, and this really helped me understand it! Thank you!
Wow this is actually really interesting. I never even gave that game a chance! This is why you're my favourite game-related youtuber. Always make me discover something new I didn't know I'd be interested in and if not that at least consider other perspectives.
as an early adopter of STW who had high hopes for that mode, watching this hurts.
This is genuinely great video, and you make a lot of great points that I did not know Fortnite offered - like its not about winning. But for me the fundamental part of any game is Gameplay - "Fortnite as a game is unfairly maligned" is not necessarily true. It might be true for a lot people; but I know I'm not alone in thinking that pretty much every action feels unsatisfying - running, shooting, savenging, picking up items; all feel pretty limp to me. And so for me with fortnite you're kind of left with a husk which makes me look at that Dan Olson vid and agree with everything he says. Contrastly, the other battle royales you mention have loads of satisfying actions, and not just running and shooting, even opening doors feels good. And I dont think this is down to theme, nintendo are the best in the business at game feel and theyre about as outlandish as it gets.
As someone that got into the game while helping my little siblings I'll say that you pretty much captured what caught me into the game
He also explained why we shouldn't play it, I'm confused.
@@VashdaCrash he didn't really say we shouldn't play it. Just that we have to have an understanding and awareness of the push to spend money. This affects people differently. I have friends that will never spend money and some that are on the edge of thier seats ready to spend money.
The idea of playing a different game in the enviroment of a multiplayer shooter reminds me of Dust 514 and I wish more games did that sort of thing
man i really loved playing dust 514. id start out running and gunning and then when i got tired of dying, i turned into a dropship spawner that got into some of the sneaky areas up high so my team could get a pretty decent advantage. was sad when it got shut down
Dust 514, If only that game didn't have such an awful player churn rate maybe it'd have survived. :-(
This is literally the most Fortnite footage I have ever watched.
I kind of get it now. I sort of understand why kids like it. I'm still really glad I grew up on games like Commander Keen, Crystal Caves, Duke Nukem & Golden Axe. I would definitely have been one of the players with no battle pass if Fortnite was around when I was a kid.
He’s the only one I’d watch a Fortnite video from, period
ok boomer
That Dan Olson video is really good though.
This is great criticism. Thanks for the content. I haven't caught any of your videos recently but I'm glad to see you're still in top form. I'll have to check the channel and see what I've missed. Thanks again.
I like how you bring up the idea of playing different games within the game. I never play to win, I tend to do the missions or just goof around really. I do get a few wins sort of accidentally and it really is by accident. Like we end up in the only fight during the entire match after goofing off, kill some dudes and then we win and everyone goes "wait what? We won? uh, okay! cool!".
More games need to do something like this. I never play games to win as that is such a boring focus. Of course I try my best most of the time, but winning is not the point for so many people in so many games.
Doesn't matter if its something like Valorant, Siege, Fortnite, whatever. For many of us, its the fun moments, the good firefights or the random craziness that we play for.
Like my friend always says "I'd rather lose to a fun enemy team 100% of the time, than win over a bunch of irritating doodooheads". last word changed into something more approriate there, but you get the point.
Okay, I have to take issue with your assertion that the original version of Fortnite "launched" and was "unsuccessful". It didn't launch. It entered a PAID early access (not cheap, either) that was still in development. I know because I was one of the suckers who paid for the top tier "Founders Package" which got access to the in-development game, along with codes to let 4 of my friends come with me. My friends did join me, and we had a good time. I love both Minecraft and Orcs Must Die, and while OG Fortnite wasn't both, it certainly wasn't neither. It was fun and I was thoroughly enjoying it. Yes, the skill trees were overly complex, but there was a healthy community and lots of potential. There was a full campaign and story, but only up to a certain level, and the areas of the game beyond that were just question marks on the world map. It was very definitely neither finished nor released.
The game was still in this limited, paid early access (with plans to go FTP when it finally launched) when the devs saw PUBG and said "huh, we could do that", released the Battle Royale mode *unannounced* overnight, and instantly it was everywhere. Twitch practically exploded with it on Day One. It was free, it was like PUBG (which was all the rage at the time), except free and flashier and with cool cartoon graphics instead of grimy old-looking crap. It was an instant hit.
At first, those of us who had bought into the early access for original Fortnite (which got renamed "Save the World" mode) were optimistic that this would give the game the playerbase it deserved. Instead, BR eclipsed STW completely. The devs assured us over and over that STW was still their focus and that it wouldn't die, but it did. They took our money, worked on the promised game for a short time, and then quietly turned it into a completely different game (which they released for FREE when we had all had to PAY) behind our backs.
*TL;DR: Original Fortnite was never released. It never got the chance to succeed or fail. It was strangled in its cradle by its obnoxious little brother.*
Watching this a year later most of your points are still up to date, altho things like the crunch with developers have been reduced as they now have hired a lot more people and have two sepparate teams working on every other season, that way they have 3 extra months each to finish the product.
The store side of the game still looks like a pretty big problem even tho now they have multiple events now where they give out free stuff which makes f2p people feel less excluded.
From my point of view even if most of the bad stuff might still be happening, it has for sure been reduced and isn't as bad as it was back then, which is a big step towards the right direction.
Finally I understand why I hate this game, the kids will see the fun part while the cinical adult in me sees the business practices and obviously fake timed "deals" and advertisments.
It speaks volumes that the majority of the playerbase is kids, they just don't understand these things yet and they don't care as long as their parents are the ones paying for the fun.
when do you think game devs will finally demand union protections and reasonable hours?
There's a remarkable amount of clear explanations and insight here. I've literally never played Fortnite, but I got absolutely every point made in this video. Fuckin' great work!
I've never heard the word 'braggadocious' before watching this.
I can see how one would be flabbergasted by it.
I was going to sit here and type out the same big comment I always do when I have an opportunity to talk about my problems with Fortnite, but I'm just going to say one thing and hope that people understand what I'm talking about...
I'm really sad I spent $40 on a game that Epic stopped caring about.
I still have the GameInformer issue it was advertised in. It had genuine promise back then, promising to combine Borderlands' Shooter-Looter formula with L4D style team zombie shooting with snap building mechanics (which while they weren't technically new was something the AAA market had never seen) sandwiched in between. If only it had been developed in it's entirety...
24:55 oh no
the holy grail
we finally have found the people whom EA uses during e3 presentations to push their milsims
i feel like he was forcing apex legends into the right shape for his thesis a bit, but aside from that a good video.
I know this video is months old but ive wanted to say this for awhile but didn’t have the words for it.
The argument Thompson makes, “that folding ideas concerns/argument is predicated on the idea that no one could actually enjoy playing fortnite itself, for its own sake”, is such a nonsense argument. All of the concerns and criticisms dan brings up in their video are still valid regardless of if someone genuinely enjoys the game play or not. A developers predatory monetization strategy is worthy of criticism regardless of whether the game is fun to play. The fact that dan thought the game was just ok is completely irrelevant to the validity of the rest of his point. Thompson arguing that “oh i have fun in fortnite actually” is such an immature argument.
Also wanted to say, any point in fortnites favor mentioned by you or tevis thompson, is wholly irrelevant in the face of its predatory monetization and epics treatment of its staff. The monetization and the crunching of staff should be at the forefront of any discussion regarding fortnite, because thats what’s actually important. Whatever purported gameplay innovations in fortnite serve solely to swindle players out of their money, the monetization of the game and how “fun” it is are not inseparable.
In short, one DOES preclude the other
This was a super interesting video. I never really think about the younger audience being pressured to buy stuff but if I was a kid I know I'd be like that.
On the one hand, you’ve come closest to making me want to try Fortnite ( always loved its aesthetic, but battle royale is REALLY not my thing) but On the other I still can’t get past the way the games monetisation and the way the company treats its deve.
"I assume there was some nightmare crunch to get Fortnite Battle Royale out in 2 months." Yeah, you should look into how it's constant crunch and disposing of employees once they're too exhausted to keep working.
At this point it's safe to assume most games were made on top of human suffering.
It is actually gone over towards the end of the video. I'm assuming that section was written prior to more research being done and wasn't caught while editing.
he touches on that later, as others have said
So, “Second Life” for kids?
Also, seems like a step back from “Rage 2” video, where you concluded that “fun gameplay” is not worth it all the bad stuff that game doing. But here you are back at noncommittal “it’s complicated”.
i think here the innovative things fortnite do are a bit more interesting than whatever Rage 2 did. Or at least they're interesting on their own as something for less evil games to try out. But in this videogame landscape seems unlikely, none indie studio has enough resources to do something like fortinte.
But this actually *is* complicated. Idk, it took 40+ minutes and several sources and demonstrations to explain it.
@@VashdaCrash just because something is 40 minutes and "has sources" doesn't make it complicated.
It's not really a step back. They're completely different games. The big draw that Fortnight has is all of the relentless new updates and gimmicks with a solid core game. Rage 2 had fun segments, in an otherwise sub-par game.
Internal self-consistency is for squares anyway.
Super interesting. I'd like to see if the competition-and-chill style could find a base divorced from the live service model. Even with something that's 90% chill like ACNH, there's a pressure to purchase a console for every person in the home just so they can have their own island. :/ What is leisure without capitalism omg my brain
@16:58-.-I don’t play Fortnite, I have never played Fortnight, I have no interest in playing Fortnite, and I’ll probably never play Fortnight, BUT i WANT THAT CAT!!!
I think it's interesting to pull in not only Dan Olson's Fortnite video in this context, but also his World Of Warcraft Classic video. In that one, he draws a sharp distinction between WoW Classic's general failure to provide meaningful advancement leading to truly open-ended & expressive play, while modern WoW has huge diversity of *things* to play with but a cavalcade of daily and weekly quests associated with them that ultimately turn them into chores. There's an element of that both in his Fortnite video and this one, but I do think it's good to centralize the question of Is This Actually Fun Or Just Another Job?
It's a very fine line, and it mostly has me recalling pre-F2P Team Fortress 2, when you would often have one or two people on a team clearly trying to earn an esoteric achievement rather than contributing directly. I typically had a good time with that since, as you cite with Fortnite, low stakes and short cycle times make losses pretty painless. (See also: why I will never touch a MOBA ever again). But there's also a confounding element that their play usually isn't *completely* orthogonal to the rest of the server's. A pyro cavorting about doing nothing but airblasting is silly and non-optimal, but it's still *something.* It's not a server of 17 people playing TF2 and 1 person playing Solitaire -- or of 10 people playing "the game" and 90 people playing Solitaire/Sudoku/Crosswords, as you seem to describe Fortnite as being.
I dont get why every single boomer who makes analysis videos of video games are so completely repelled by the building in Fornite. I wish someone with brains would make a comprehensive analysis of the building instead of talking about the monetization, which is valid and important to talk about, but not that interesting as it becomes more of a nature of human beings and capitalism versus the merit of the game's actual mechanics. To me the building in this game is the actual standout feature. It's completely unique and an evolution of what a shooter can be. And yet everyone 30+ just reduces it to a passing joke about building a tower in 30 seconds. People in general (and specifically Errant's channel since it's so focused on FPS advancements and what-not) needs to give this game another go and this time really dig into the building, in my opinion. Also I disagree that the point of the game is to just "relax" and that people don't care about winning. People very much care about winning, and the flashy, cool nature of the building and how it can be used to win is deeply linked to the social aspect of the game
All of that micro transactions gave me a headache.
Definitely not my version of 'chilling out'.
This video made me realize something - isn't this kind of like those late 00's MMOs for kids, like Club Penguin and Toontown? Except also a BattleRoyale with CCP money.
I would say that in place of Smash Ultimate you could have said Splatoon 2. It's a fun, lighthearted, zanie game featuring pg violence with and an emphasis on jamming out to funky tunes and dressing up with bright colors in a wacky post apocalyptic setting full of mundane but warm welcomed cliche places like "city rooftops" and "loading dock full of cargo" while you post little drawings and have a fun time with your friends. And where Fortnites customization system fails by cynically adding in lootboxes and in game currency Splatoon specifically ties into the gameplay itself. There are rarely any limited time deals and for those deals that are limited you can always participate in matches to gain coins that'll let you get those limited time things without much hassle. Albeit now Splatoon seems less of a ease of access game without any paywalls since Nintendo's following the rest of the AAA world in making online gameplay blocked behind a paywall but whatever I had already put so much into splatoon I'm not complaining that much although I wish it was still free so that whenever I'm bored I could've dropped into a turf war or 2 and then stop playing for a while. And there's no way I'm sinking my money into Nintendo's Online service until I get a stable flow of income again.
I've never played the game, but I've of course heard of it. and I knew so much less than I thought :P this was a FASCINATING look at the game, on so many levels.
Oh a new errant signal! Nice, I can spend probably 10-15 minutes with this. Oh fuck. Alright, let's settle in
I love how the game has characters with names but absolutely none of them have any writing, emotions, reason, or anything of substance other than cosmetics.
I, like many others before, can't help but notice the huge TF2 parallels, haha.
I'm a square who didn't know anything about Fortnite but now I get the appeal. Thanks, Campster.
This game feels like those early 2000's e3 Conferences; this awkward, cynical but also comically absurd and pleasant mix of introvert nerd enthusiasm, extravert party chilling, and then the festival and toy industries trying to keep up with hip interests. That's certainly something that other battle royale games lack.
Please just talk about Hylics 2 and Mason Lindroth. We need it. This community needs it.
This is an absolutely stellar, considerate, holistic piece. Been loving your work lately.
Can we talk about how great that Travis Scott concert was though? Sure there were associated limited time purchasable cosmetics but the concert itself never called on anyone to "show your favorite emote", it was just a big semi-interactive visual spectacle unlike anything I've ever seen before in a game like this.
I completely agree. Also, contrary to what it's said in this video, the emotes made specifically for the concert were actually free to use during the event. Everyone could use those emotes. After the event, you could buy them in the shop to use in the future if you wanted.
th-cam.com/video/wYeFAlVC8qU/w-d-xo.html
⬆️⬆️
Also, here's the full concert. If you are reading this and you haven't seen it, please give it a chance. It was a very unique experience. And it all happened in real time in the BR map. There is no other game which does this kind of events at this level right now.
aha so it's a party game akin to Mario party where the goal is to win but the fun part is the mini-games, but the mini-games are seamless and you don't know the other players just their personas.
I can honestly listen to you and hear you talking about anything and I'll be interested. This was really well done and enjoyable
A 40-minute Errant Signal video? Today's my lucky day.
The thing that fascinates me the most about Fortnite is that it's become part of the never-ending cycle of hating whatever game is popular and mainstream. Mostly in a flaccid attempt by the "hardcore" to deny that videogames have become mainstream entertainment and are no longer the exclusive plaything of nerds. First, it was Halo, then it was Call of Duty and now it's Fortnite.
I mean, either that, it's a bunch of grown-ass adults raging at whatever "the kids" like. You'd think that people who grew-up with adults dismissing videogames as a waste of time would be a bit more sensitive in avoiding becoming that very same adult.
fireaza To quote Principal Skinner: "Am I so out of touch? ............No. It's the children who are wrong."
Wow, that's quite an opinion that one guy has on Dead Cells. Fucking hell.
JanPospisil42 Tevis Thompson's thoughts on video games are very... unorthodox, to say the least
2:44
Yeah, I see it. Blimey.
I've got some similar opinions about his opinions *_`; P_*
Your channel is extremely underrated. Excellent work and analysis.
I suppose, if there's any consolation, since Fortnite Chapter 2 has launched, seasons often get extended multiple times. C2 Season 1 went on from, like, October to March, when it was supposed to end in, like, January. Similarly, C2 Season 2 got extended by at least a month and a half, maybe even two months. And people who have datamined the current season say the game already has weekly challenges that will take it past its August end date well in to September, suggesting Epic is planning for still more delays. One would hope that is a signifier that they've slowed down on all the crunch.
i got back in to fortnite after a long, long break (i’m one of those weirdos who actually lovingly played save the world a lot), and dude, this is a spot on video. this is absolutely a big part of why fortnite is the first multiplayer or fps i’ve ever invested time in, and according to my switch alone (playstation won’t count playtime the same way and some is stw obviously), that time is approaching 500 cumulative hours? fortnite has also overtaken animal crossing for me for the time being for the positive dissociative fun i just Need lately. also feel like it is worth mentioning that you earn more than enough vbucks in a season’s battle pass to afford the next battle pass. i haven’t bought a damn thing since i bought save the world like two years ago. stw will grind out vbucks like nobody’s business even more than the battle pass. the skinner box-isms still exist, and the limited release special licensed skins can kind of be a bummer especially. i guess for me it’s not a worry personally bc i am an adult who makes adult financial decisions and will not whale for something just because it’s cool and new. i mean, i also play fire emblem: heroes and have never bought orbs, no matter how many of my favourite units get released - an acquaintance of mine, on the other hand, recently admitted that she went to therapy following maxing a credit card spending literally hundreds of dollars on those same freemium features i’ve never tossed a dime towards. anyway, this piece is great.
You can make even a video about Fortnite a good watch. Thanks
This "Tevis" person seems frantically desperate to come across as intelligent.
Lovely work Chris - I'm really glad to have listened to this to add nuance to my opinions on Fortnight. I only played it a couple times back when and didn't find it compelling, but this characterization as more of a 'party with a shooting game attached' helps me understand my opinions better. Honestly, while this isn't a strike against the game objectively, it perfectly captures what I don't like about it. I don't go to games to find some kind of abstract interaction with friends - it feels absolutely like a block party. Being introverted, I don't really know what to do there and feel uncomfortable. And like trying to introduce a board game to a party, it's sort of awkward to realize that the game is only ever the means and not the end to one's presence there.
I do feel one notion left unaddressed here is the inherent lack of cohesion in mechanics. Why do we NEED the guns at all in a game about interaction along the lines of VR Chat? Why even allow the game to be won? I think the answer is that Fortnight is the result of a cacophony of mechanics grafted together, propelled forward by a userbase large enough to provide Epic with enough money to simply make new bells and whistles at a rate that makes you forget that... what are we even doing in the game? While you could say this about a lot of things, it feels like the game is mechanically vapid - not inherently fun.
Compare to Splatoon, wherein the movement is connected to the firing which is connected to accomplishing all manner of goal. And here too, we see players decide to throw away the game's preconceived goals of elimination and start impromptu squid parties, but even those tend to involve the unique mechanics of the game in a way I feel like fortnight's dances don't. Dances serve no function in the ostensible goal of the fight - they're a supplement grafted on. Giving fortnight a pass on this is to encourage this cacophonous design which I don't think is ideal.
But curious to hear contrarian opinions here as I don't play the game myself. Bottom line - lovely video - thanks so much for putting it out there!3
....
Forgot to add that this Tevis Thompson person is so insufferable and self-involved that I resent the inclusion of his glorified blog website in your video for making me waste both 10 minutes and 10 IQ points desperately trying to determine if he had anything interesting (or at least beyond utterly trite) to say.
I don't like how Fortnite is so limited time focused
Well this is definitely unexpected but I'm excited to hear what you have to say about it 😯
Absolutely amazing video
Thanks. Great video.
I wasn't really interested in Fortnite when I picked it up like 1.5 years ago. But during Lockdown it was just a great game to hang out with friends. The downtimes were great to just chit chat, interupted by burst of excitment. The light hearted style helped that we just had a good time while playing, but it is chill.
I also played it with a friend who I never expected to play games, it was her first and got her hooked. It is is easy going and lets you celebrate the small wins and then you can try again fast.
Honestly pretty good stuff.
I actually think it’s cute that you don’t understand the bus driver meme reference
Quit horsing around
Another Errant Signal video, another complete and utter rehaul onto how I view a game I enjoy. Holy shit man, nice job with this one.
Great video as always. I really appreciate your personal and nuanced takes on issues that always seem to come from the heart. Thank you!
One of the best Errant signal as of yet. Thanks!
A few mechanical details that don't really matter but I feel the urge to point out anyways:
Fortnite actually does have Daily Challenges this season, and they've blatantly cloned Animal Crossing's Nook Miles+ system for it. Randomly generated, and the first few challenges award more XP than normal.
Both Warzone and Apex Legends have taken steps this season to implement more interesting, vaguely story-based weekly missions. Warzone's missions boil down to reading a text log and figuring out where it's telling you to go to find the next text log, and Apex's weekly missions are completely separate AI wave defense missions set in different parts of the map with short text chapters stitching them together.
Fortnite's (and most BR's) SBMM system does a decent job at segregating the two different kinds of players, so the players that are here for the social space are in separate matches than the ones playing seriously, and the truly competitive players would be playing in Arena mode instead of the general matchmaking queues. You'll still run into a few serious players in any given match, but it goes a long way towards keeping the main experience a casual one.
Hey, maybe you should check warframe. It's famous for having a great community and a well done free to play model
Just as a general comment, a thoroughly enjoy these videos. Thanks for making them! They help me enjoy the medium of games even more than I already do!
I never got over the downtime and permanency of death. Much prefer a hero shooter like TF2 or OW.
That’s part of what makes Call of Duty's Warzone mode work. You can partake in a 1v1 match to earn a respawn once per game.
I will always consider Geneshift's battle royale mode a gold standard for that. When you die, you turn into a zombie to duke it out with other not-so-fortunate characters, and hopefully revive if you kill a living player. Then there's the whole overarching round system that encourages you to get into fights and earn points to eventually end the match by being the winner of a round. That brilliantly works around the randomness of finding weapons too.
Hyper Scape, which launches on 12th july also gives you something to do after being killed. Pinging enemies as an intangible ghost, and having a chance to revive on every enemy's death point.
Fortnite has respawn mechanics. If you teammate dies, you pick up his card, go to a respawn van, activate it and he's back again. You can do it as many times as you want, but the van has a cool down of several minutes.
Also, there are different game modes, for example in Team Rumble the objective is not to be the last man standing. The first team which gets 125 points, wins. You will always respawn and redeploy automatically each time they kill you until a team wins. There are other modes like The Floor is Lava, Low gravity modes, sniper only, capture the flag, etc. And it even has a creative mode in which people do custom maps to play.
great vid. now i know why people like fortnite.
your sensitivity is insanely high
12:11 - metaphor for my love life
I'm always impressed by your analytical abilities. Your videos are amazing.
"A PR firm with a history of working with Epic running a pro-BLM special on the 4th of July on a platform that got bad press after being accused of appropriating black culture for profit..."
On the Will Wright GDC I've always wanted cross universe games. My go to example. In GTA if you passed a stadium a "real" sport would be playing. Let's say Rocket League and you could watch it live. You wouldn't be able to affect it or anything just that they'd exist within the same space.