How to Defeat Tucker's Kobolds in Dungeons and Dragons
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarter.com/projects/... We look at the legendary story of Tucker's Kobolds and discuss how a 5e party could survive it.
TIME STAMPS
0:00 - Intro
1:08 - Analyzing The Facts
4:45 - Surviving the Fire Trapped Room
6:45 - Adapting to 5e
7:22 - Surviving the Murder Holes
10:35 - Surviving the Flaming Debris
12:32 - Surviving the Kobold Commandos
13:22 - Surviving the Kobold Tunnels
14:13 - choosing the Right Spells
16:43 - The Fear Factor
17:46 - Final Analysis
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I know the Dudes acknowledged that 5e is very different from AD&D, but I think there are lots of differences they didn't even consider (for instance, the near-universality of dark vision among PCs in 5e). My idea for a third video in this trilogy: The Dungeon Dudes create a 5e version of Tucker's Kobolds that makes the adventure challenging using the modern rules.
Seconded. The lesser magic especially would present a problem for modern players, among other things their assumptions don't take into account.
This is a great idea.
Not only that, but up casting didn't exist back then, what you saw is what you got. So casting invisibility would be a MASSIVE investment of spell slots. The party had hirelings and donkeys. I seriously doubt the wizard had the slots to cast invisibility on everyone. And Magic Missile back then were based completely on the casters highest Spellcaster level, a 12th level Spellcaster would have the maximum of 5 magic missiles.
Readying actions didn't exist either. So that's out the window immediately. As for dealing with all the fire. There is a spell that could do that ridiculously easy for a party, namely, Affect Normal Fires, a spell that would allow the wizard control the intensity of, or just EXTINGUISH ALL MUNDANE FIRES IN RANGE. It's a spell that doesn't exist in these newer editions, which shoes that magic were far more varied in the past. It's a spell that would have great use, though.
4 players all level 12 = 48 divide by 4.. a total CR of 12 (divided by 1/4 each for kobold CR, you get 48 Kobolds)
Quest-giver: a seemingly robust and fit fighter, who mostly just rocks in a chair hugging himself. mumbling incoherently, talking to party members who aren't there. Or drinking himself to sleep at the tavern. When pried for information, if he is drunk enough, he tells a tale of rumored treasures, protected by great monsters in a nearby lair. If the party makes any indication that they intend to go check it out, he will just scream at them, and beg them not to go. Then break down in tears, sayind "the kobolds..." over and over.
- the front door is actually a series of 5 doors, one after another, each requiring an action strength check to kick down once you're locked in.
- inside the front door(s) is a steep stone staircase which descends 40 ft (and it will definitely be covered in grease very soon).
- spread out the kobolds, packs of 2 (pack tactics), but groups of two are never closer than 15ft apart (actually tactical pack tactics)
- wooden shutters on the murder holes, 2 kobolds per murder hole, 1st free-use opens & attacks, 2nd free-use attacks and closes it.
- add a lot of poison
- lots of traps, which "cannot" be discovered or disarmed by the rogue, because the entire triggering mechanism is manually operated by a kobold. (out of reach log-drops, etc)
- limited amounts of obvious "cover" available to the party (mind the poison tipped punji sticks hidden in the cover though... also mind that whole barrel of oil in the ceiling over it...)
- a cart filled with big rocks, with the front covered in poison spikes, which rolls into the back-side of the "obvious cover", and makes doubly sure to shove players into the spikes already in the "cover".
- that vine-covered lattice which goes up to the top level kobolds? That's poison Ivy. And the lattice is secured by a latch, which the 2 kobolds at the top can un-latch, letting the lattice fall ...into the 'cover' with the fun pokey-sticks
- a wooden side door, seemingly getting out of the ambush area from which a voice can be overheard saying "hold the door shut!", but the door only opens to a stone wall, and a small improvised explosive.
- "Rocks fall, party dies" but do you know why rocks fall? It's because 2 kobolds and a pri-bar knocked the support beam out.
- when the alarm horn is blown, the party should understand that they weren't "detected", but that they're "in the center of the kill-box"
- one older kobold who comes out and says "I love it when a plan comes together" while chewing a cigar, when the party runs out of the dungeon.
if the party survives, AND actually get through the kobolds, then they get to the staircase and go down to level 10 ...only to find that the kobolds have already murdered all the demons and just use the lava pit down there to smoke jerky. There is treasure, and a lot of jerky. Some of the jerky meat is hard to exactly place the flavor of.
Tucker's Kobalds win ... you can't hit them, they can hit you, they can damage you, they outnumber you ... they win ...
Most of the spells mentioned fail .. no line of sight, total cover ...
Sleep .. will sleep a few who have total cover and will be woken by others....
Ready Action ... is the only valid argument.... except for the fire, traps and more traps ...
I think Tucker's Kobolds is designed to hit an uninventive party.
😂😂😂 yeah, riiiight.
Not just uninventive, but also parties that dont do much scouting.
Kobolds had imunity to one element, based on what dragon type were based on.
Martin asks why the players didnt prepare against the fire or used the fire against them, but even if you already know how the DM uses the kobolds the DM has six different encounters (one for fire imunity, one for poison imunity...) and can always choose wich one on the fly if the party doesnt check it beforehand (and even if they do, he could change it saying something like "a rival faction took control of the path you guys choose during the preparations" if the party doesnt act quickly).
Edit: typos
@@albertonishiyama1980 Fair points and I agree. I actually didn't know about the elemental immunity in AD&D (I've played a little 3.5 and a lot of 5). That's cool and one of those details I wish they hadn't simplified out of 5e.
Anyhow, it sounds (from the original story) like the players knew (or should have found out) how the DM would use the kobolds, so fair enough to call this a failure of scouting as much as a failure of ingenuity.
Though I will say if the DM changed it that dramatically after I'd scouted it (unless the party dallied for months), I think I'd stop playing with the jerk.
I think Tucker´s Kobolds were designed to burn through some of the recsources that the party would need for their level 10 adventure, and the party knew that they would have to give up on their goal to fight the demons if they did not run.
“Uninventive” is a lot kinder than how I’d say it, but I definitely agree
On the subject of magic missile, AD&D said that “near-total concealment, such as that offered by arrow slits” can render magic missile ineffective.
THANK YOU
I mean it was a narrow hallway. Just walk up to it and stick your wand in before firing.
Not to mention -1 spell slot on the first level of a big dungeon that (if the kobolds are an indication) doesn't allow for long rests
@@brendanmcmannis3334 To be fair, in AD&D, you didn't take a long rest, at all. You did your day's adventure, and then you went back to town to rest up before the next dungeon delve. And however long you waited between games was how much time passed between dungeon raids. So the fact that you only healed 1 or 2 points per night was OK, since you'd be resting for a whole week, and probably have your cleric casting their healing spells on someone every day, to make up the difference.
AD&D was WAY different to 5e. SO very different.
If I remember right ADnD was basically a rules supplement for small parties of Hero Units, because DnD was originally a Table Top War Game
It's worth remembering that the original Tucker's Kobolds were up against a party whose magic users didn't have the flexibility of modern spellcasters. The spell slot system whereby you can cast any spell prepared as long as you have a slot of sufficient level didn't exist (or was, at best a variant system that might not be in use at that table, much like the various attempts at mana-pool based systems) at that time. Each spell had to be memorized (a process that took 10 uninterrupted minutes per spell level, after a period of rest/sleep that scaled with the highest level spell you wanted to memorise but started at a minimum of 4 hours), and disappeared from your head after a single casting. If you wanted to drop multiple fireballs (as an example), you needed to memorize Fireball multiple times.
What's more, at that time you started knowing Read Magic and three random spells, and had to seek out other spells during the campaign. You didn't just learn more by levelling. And even if you found a spell, you needed to roll a % check to learn it (and failure meant you didn't get to try again until you levelled up). Not only that, the maximum number of spells you could learn was capped by your Intelligence (and INT, or indeed any given stat, at that time tended to average lower than in modern D&D).
In short, a mafic user at that time was nowhere near as flexible as in modern D&D, and the spells they had available to prep for any given dungeon crawl was in a large part down to the DM, so they can perhaps be forgiven for not having the best spells for the job.
To make matter's worse, it was much easier to interrupt and spoil a spellcaster's day- you declare you're casting a spell, that memorization of it will be used, regardless if the spell goes off successfully or not. Given casting times for spells back then very often meant even an enemy further back in the initiative order would get a turn before the spell went off, and Concentration checks to avoid having your casting interrupted weren't yet a thing, I find it very easy to believe that the wizard in the story had trouble doing anything useful.
(Also, just as an aside, the AD&D DMG specifically mentions that arrow slits and murder holes provide near-total cover, and thus Magic Arrow won't work. Plus at the time, all additional targets needed to be within 10' of the base target. In 5e though, yeah, it's a pretty ideal spell for that situation)
I think Tucker's is a story designed to encourage DMs to use history as a tool for combat design. All the tactics used by the kobolds are reminiscent of guerrilla tactics used by the defending native population of Vietnam forces in the Vietnam war, something which would have been much more in the mind of the populace in the days of early D&D
And since most of group were in the Army, the DM had access to military tactical manuals. One manual show how to make a contact circuit for a mine out of c-ration can, K-bar, nail, and wire. Ooops forgot the P-38,
Murderholes and arrow slits are basic medieval defense system, it's not even that devious
*Bardcore "Fortunate Son" begins to play*
I did that once. Saw something on History channel about the Vietnam Tunnel warfare. PC took out the look outs on the hill and then decide to plug each tunnel entrance. AKA skip the adventure.
@@RottenRogerDM You mean the "Pew-38 Explosive Space Modulator"?
We always called it that. It made opening cans SO much more fun!
"There was supposed to be an Earth-shattering KABOOM!"
"Nope. Just tuna. YUM!"
I remember the joy when my sister and I, upon moving to our own apartment, managed to find some "Pew-38's" at an old Army surplus store. They're fantastic! They fit right on your keychain, and they do so much more than open cans. They open boxes and letters, and hearts, with the laughter they provide. One of the best tools ever!
I miss mine. I lost it during the last move, and the Army surplus store closed. Wah!
1e Magic Users.
i) Their spells were fire and forget, so if you wanted to bring along Magic Missile and/or Sleep (which are fairly useless at higher/deeper levels where the party is ultimately heading), a 12th Level MU would have to sacrifice a one-shot memory slot (they got 4x L1-5, and 1x L6) which they might have otherwise used for a more useful "utility" spell.
ii) A 12th Level MU would be evoking 6x 1d4+1 magic missiles, with all targets having to be in a 10 ft. square area. Each does only 3.5 HP damage on average, which would give a 75% kill rate against an average kobold. So 4-5 dead kobolds on a cast assuming they've been bunched up. If those murder holes are spaced apart you might only be getting half that.
iii) A Sleep spell will knock out 4d4, so maybe 10, kobolds, and they'd all have to be within a 15 ft. radius circle. If there are more kobolds nearby they can awaken their friends with a round's action, so it'll buy time, but might end up not actually taking too many out of the fight long term. (Sleeping a couple of kobolds carrying a vat of oil and flaming torches whilst in amongst their fellows might be a useful cast, of course).
iv) MUs had to find spells and also roll to learn them, so they just might not have more useful spells in their spell book.
v) A 12th level MU is going to have around 28-29 HP (11d4+1). Dropping a 12d6 (42 HP on average) fireball with the caster in the blast zone isn't going to be a great experience for the party. A 12th level Thief wouldn't fare much better with 39 HP (10d6+4), whilst a 12th level Fighter would have, perhaps, 67-68 HP (9d10+9, +9 as a +1 CON bonus, say). Even if they do make their saving throws for half damage, they're going to be pretty badly beaten up. Plus, they'd risk having their equipment destroyed or damaged from the heat/fire (older games were much more brutal than 5e in this respect). Also, back in the day maybe around 2/3rd of the adventuring group was made up of henchmen and hirelings who would just be turned into crispy critters by such a fireball. So, not generally a good idea unless in a really sticky situation.
This so very much yeah. I do think this analysis goes wrong, on account of the Dudes simply not having played quite enough 2nd to catch the changes in attitude and system.
Also System Shock. Take half your hp in one turn and you roll con to see if you actually survive it at all. Death saves didn't exist.
i never knew that the party already knew they would be facing tuckers kobolds, had a map of the dungeon, and had plenty of time to plan out their path and preparations
Edit: it was a partial map
It does sound like they got cocky, and thought they could just waltz through the first level without issue, thus did not actually prepare. Or rather, preparation stopped at "have map, know enemy identity, call it a day".
yeah, that's the part that stands out the most on hearing the original version of the kobolds. at least some of the PCs in the party had encountered them before, and they had a partial map of the dungeon level. the players had everything they'd've needed to properly prepare for the kobolds, but instead their entire fail of a plan was "pick a short path and run".
the party entirely deserved the utter beatdown the kobolds gave them
If you can make the party freak out and panic, you win.
Oh the sleep spell...so under appreciated, so under used.
We're playing Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and one of our party members is a Human Bard (no, not Variant Human) who doesn't have a single ability modifier above +2. We got into an ambush, and over two rounds, he put 3 out of the 4 attackers to sleep. Our DM took it surprisingly well.
But not in this case. How many castings do you think you have against an effectively unlimited number of opponents?
And it was _even more_ powerful in older versions of D&D.
Just to nitpick, at normal casting using a 40 foot cube the max number of sleepy kobolds is 40. That leaves 24 if you are only using one kobold per square. This points out the power of small numbers done large. And my current casual player love it.
@@RottenRogerDM of course back in Original D&D one cast was only 4D4 1 hit dice monsters, so at MOST 16 kobolds per cast.
Now it’s been a long time since I played first edition. Back in the eighties when I was in high school. There are a few things I’d give the players. Dropping a fireball on yourself is a lot worse in first edition. Wizards had a d4 hit points, and I believe fireball did 10d6. Rogues had only a d6. That fireball could have messed them up. There was also no short rests, so if they couldn’t get a long rest in the dungeon they may have been trying to conserve resources and/or save their spells for the bigger monsters.
All that said, yeh I th8nk with some better planning this should have been a doable challenge.
And if the DM was evil, everything saved vs magical fire. So, you could lose you spell component pouch. Swapping out spell in the dungeon was harder.
Agreed, the real lesson to learn here is how much stronger 5E PCs are than they was back in the day. Things like short rest, hit dice, and not loosing a spell when taking damage go along way. The number of spells suggested to deal with the kobolds on the first level of the dungeon would mean 2 days of down time to rest and rememorize.
@@RottenRogerDMHad this happen but a save vs disintegration where my fellow player survived with only a single +1 long sword. No cothes, armor or treasure. Just. The. Sword.
@@RottenRogerDM Harder, try impossible. I never let a party get 8 hours of uninterrupted rest in a dungeon and was never allowed one. Most of the reason I am wizard adverse to this day was the resource management was so bad I still have flashbacks! It wasn't until 3.5 that I considered a pure wizard viable to any significant degree.
Actually, it would have been worse because a fireball did 1d6 per level of the magic user, so a 12th level magic user would have done 12d6 with a fireball, not 10d6. Pair that with the fact that all classes other than fighters could only get a +2 maximum hit points per level and hit dice only were rolled up to level 9 through 11 (depending on the class of the character), and like mentioned above hit dice were smaller (except for fighters, paladins, druids, and clerics) and a level 12 magic user’s fireball could inflict a TPK on an unlucky party, though it’s likely that a fighter might be tough enough to survive with their d10 hit dice and potentially +3 or +4 CON bonuses.
1e was a different time.
I'm glad you acknowledged the differences in Fireball and Lightning Bolt-- there are similar differences with many other spells (like there's no such thing as upcasting, but I think by 9th level a wizard gets 5 magic missiles per casting of the 1st level spell...so only 5 kobolds go down).
I think there are two mistakes you make that it might be fun if you re-address:
The kobolds are likely part of a tribe and I'd bet Tucker maxed that tribe. So you're talking 400 kobolds, not 30. And you're talking 300 eggs ready to hatch more...there are also some really scary overbearing rules in 1e. If a pack of 40 corner you in a dead end, it's over. It's been a long time since the '80s, but I also think that, as small creatures, they could cram a square with more than one per square, so it gets thick and nasty quickly.
I think where y'all would be better versed to address the mistake you made is this:
You put 5e tactics against 1e kobolds. You need to upgrade the kobolds to 5e in the same numbers-- say your 30-- and add in spell-casters. THIS would be why they run and choose to fight single monsters rather than the mad rush of endless kobolds....
(But a fun video as always, guys. Glad to hear from one of your DMs that the games at GenCon went well. They really bragged about the floating positions coming in with various optional adds. Bravo.)
Tuckers Kobolds is great but a couple points.
1) The kobolds are a complication to kill the mules and hirelings (more treasure means more XP) so you have to protect them.
2) The players were focused on the mid and end levels and were not prepared with extra resources to deal with the Kobolds. They could have gotten all kinds of things to have gotten though. And while Monks and Paladins were rare and Druids and Rangers uncommon and loosing your familar would suck it was possible to be really tricking and make the Kobolds show their hand and thus avoid most of the traps. But the players were lazy.
3) The fire spells were because if you have fire at the end level and so you have ice or wind before that levels are themed as are campaigns
4) The moral is all baddies can be a threat - to the unprepared.
(Last point. Ad&D had limits for what we called Demi-human characters like an elf. But they multiclassed in ways we don’t have now. The story does not really say how many were in the party but if the Wizard was a Elf Magic User/fighter at 10th level then they have Magic User 5 and fighter 5. The story was focused on the Kobolds so we don’t know if that also was a factor.)
(Edit Last part was had MU Twice should have been Fighter/MU)
Multiclassing is not being well explained. Demihumans generally took 2 or more classes and ALL their classes advanced more or less together and generally a level behind a single class character. So if the highest level character was 12th level and the wizard was 12th level, it was almost certainly single classed. If it had been 11th level, it was likely a fighter/magic-user 11/11 or a magic-user/thief 11/12. But demihumans had level limits based on subrace and prime ability score (set by class), so it may have topped out lower in any of the classes.
@@johnweatherman5685 yup I did poorly type that last bit out. I think you got to the general point I did but you would (been like 20 years) but you add them not take the high level (that is what we did at least) though my point is we don’t know exactly what the character levels were. Also this does assume they ran the game the as the books say - many didn’t or made modifications. We just don’t know without Tucker here.
There is an official 5e AL adventure modeled after Tucker's Kobolds. It's DDAL06-01 A Thousand Tiny Deaths for characters level 1-4. I'd like to see you guys try overcoming that adventure. Let's make it easier, you can play it with level 6 characters.
Level 3 spells make it a lot easier. Hypnotic Pattern is great, probably still packing Sleep at this stage as well. Also did anyone think of actually trying to negotiate with the Kobolds and use a non combative solution to the problem?
@@mikeunderwood734A non combat solution? Negotiations? Are you MAD, boy?! This ain't the pub, this is a war(game).
(I'm ofc joking, but that's probably the equivalent reaction that you'd get from the power-trippy antagonistic DM who has been looking forward to wrecking his players with a bunch of made up monsters all week)
@@mikeunderwood734 respectfully, it's not about how powerful the spell is. The kobolds are spread out in secret tunnels, firing through murder holes. It's not one single encounter, they use hit and run tactics so suddenly you are hit with two dozen attacks. You retaliate, they disappear. You will run out of spell slots before they run out of kobolds.
@@intrinsical That is the biggest factor, the party has limited resources, Kobolds (and most similar humanoids like Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Gnolls, etc) come in numbers ranging from 50-500+ and often have allies and/or non-ally monsters that they know about and can use nearby.
That's perfect for me because I wanted to run a Viet Cong dungeon to throw against my utterly uninventive players.
It's worth mentioning that sharpshooter won't do much to negate the arrow slits and murder holes, since the kobolds can split their movement and fire, taking full cover (untargetable) after they shoot
True but like they mentioned, players can use their Ready Action to retaliate when the kobolds pop out
@@mxt3k Wouldn't work if there was heavy smoke already. The kobolds would likely get a few extra rounds of firing because they are closer to the ground.
Or do what some of my players do is fall prone after the attack.
@@mxt3kYou cant ready an action in 1st or 2nd ed.
@@aaronnunavabizniz199 if there is heavy smoke that keeps the players from shooting, then the kobolds cant fire either. Players ready action, as soon as the Kobold moves to a shooting position behind cover, the attack is rolled before the Kobold attacks. The Kobolds get no extra rounds of firing due to size.
One thing that occurs to me is that the party could have tried to negotiate with the kobolds, and thus avoid fighting them altogether. So many groups neglect diplomacy as an option.
A decanter of endless water? That would be fun if it were a grease fire.
AD&D or 5e rules?
the strongest weapon they kobolds had by far was their intimidation on the players themselves.
LEADER: lets run blindly past all of them instead of treating this like any other dungeon.
speedrunners know what happens when you try to run past all the enemies, some or all catch up.
Just gotta be quicker and smarter so they don't catch up!
@@negative6442
"Deekin don't surf!"
One thing anout the Kobolds and the fire:
They had immunity to a "random" element (not really random, but they could have any type of the Dragon Breaths options since there was one Kobolt variant to any color of dragon). So it's a enemy weirdly difficult to prepare against.
In one encounter they can abuse fire, and on the next pull a cloud kill, and the one after that have corridors full pf glyph of warding that they stomp and lightning bolts fly on the party.
You can know that they're there, but there's still the "what element" question that can make everything you prepared to go to waste.
In AD&D, Kobolds were not part of the "draconic" monster family. They were described as "dog-like" and were more of a trickster/pack monster.
I fought them several times in module B1: Keep on the Borderlands (The Caves of Chaos.)
I think this was from Kobold Press, Ver 3.5. It was never core rules as far as I can remember. But the variant did make things interesting.
I don't use "modern" kobolds in my games. They are scaly, doglike creatures, as in 1st edition.
Better: Imagine these Kobolds sounds like they have a brain, so chances are, the tribe might consist of multiple variants, so they could send a different kind each time which makes it even more troublesome, or a mix.
I feel like the kobolds were implied to be endless. Aside from the fireball suggestions, they never mentioned fighting back. The way that the group is always surrounded and they talk about honeycomb tunnels, I feel like it is supposed to be implied that there is no killing all the kobolds as more will just immediately replace them.
The other things to remember is the asymmetry of this battle. If you use a cone of cold on level 1, that is a fifth level spell you can't use anywhere else and it netted you a few dead kobolds whereas normally those kobolds would be easy prey for a fighter without the use of any resources
The players in Tucker's Kobolds always struck me as high school students, popcorn and soda drinkin' kids looking for some fun slaughtering old dungeon monsters that pop out when you open a new door in the dungeon. Challenged to actually think they just... didn't.
Since it happened at Ft Bragg, NC "Home of The Airborne and Special Operations Forces" [where they teach specialized Small Unit [squad of 5 Adventurers] tactics. I'm not sure of their being high school, but they could have been young visiting troops, the permanent troops would have soon figured out what to do when they returned to the local village with henchmen, hirelings and pack animals killed and no volunteers for the forseeable future. they might be able to buy provisions and equipment at 200-500% of cost to partly repay the villagers for the loss of their relatives.
@@grog4063 this reads as nonesense to me. most people I know try NOT to bring their irl skills into rp. so even if this was a military game, they probably treated it as different then their actual job.
@@TranshumanMarissa And how many letter grades have you been 'dumbed down??!?' I have probably played DND more years than you are old. In my first group I played in, everyone had a bow and used them regularly. Do you dare to face off against a DND Ogre with 1 hit point. In my arrogance, I did and I won. Do the same and I'll be impressed. BTDT!
@@TranshumanMarissaI also think there was some roleplaying going on here with the players finding it funny to act scared.
@@znail4675 To me, it always felt like the players got a bad case of the rpg brain. Preparing for high level encounters, because they want the most loot, leaving themselves vulnerable to the viciousness of lower level encounters played well, plus generally, the tactics you develop in rpgs is very different then IRL tactics, only for the Kobolds here to go full guerilla warfare.
A lvl 12 Wizard would only have had 11D4+1 +con modx11 HP. So 12-45 +11xCon, so not a lot of HP and other party members would have had less if they were not at lvl 12 as they said 6-12th level. That 10D6 Fireball could have killed your entire party with damage if not the cave in's that come after.
I also think you are missing the fact that the party was prepared for the 10th lvl and not the 1st level because they intended to bypass the 1st room, waste all your slots on the 1st level and you die on the 10th level with no resources.
Funny thing about this entire story is that I have been DMing for the last 30 years or so and missed that edition of Dragon Mag, I only learnt about *Tucker's Kobold's* recently and my first questions were *"Isn't this just normal for Intelligent Humanoids? Aren't we ALL running our Kobolds/Goblins/Hobgoblins/etc like this?"* because I have run them that way from day 1. Kobolds and Goblins are NOT low level monsters if you run them as they are intended to be run, they are mid level threats at least.
Wizards use d6s as HP dice, not d4s, on 5e dnd, on which they are talking about, since they talked on how to use tuckers kobolds on 5e on last video
An evoker wizard can also not affect the party on the AoE of the fireball by sculpting the spell
And fireball is not make to collapse tunnels, is a fire explosion, not a thunder one like Shatter or Thunderwave
@@FarothFuin He was stating in AD&D. Which was where tuckers kobolds are from.
@@FarothFuin Not back in Original D&D, you could not shape spells like that and Wizards (Magic-Users) only had a D4 hit dice that stopped at lvl 11 and then you got +1 hp per level only. You also had to ROLL your hit dice, ALL of them even at level 1. Level 1 characters died often in original D&D because a single sword attack (1D8) was enough to kill many up to 4th level characters.
@@FarothFuin they talked about what they could have done back in 1st edition and what they could do now. But the idea to "drop a fireball" on the party was when talking about what they could have done back in 1st edition. Keep in mind that 1st edition didn't prescribe having players picking their spells, so all the talk about cloud kill and cone of cold could be moot.
@@FarothFuin D4s were used by Wizard characters when Tucker's Kobolds came out.
I'd like to see Tucker's Kobolds but for 5e. Listen they're tricky buggers but its too easy with the spells available to us to just trivialize encounters like this. I think the point of the story is to show how terrifying kobolds can be despite their terrible hp.
I'm planning to use a version of Tucker's Kobolds in a mini-campaign I'm prepping for my group. I've never GMed, so I am doing a crazy amount of research
I used Killer Kobolds and one player tried to avoid a trap by being a "40 pound" Tabaxi [normally 70 pounds] and he fell through the trap anyway. One of the other players captured one of the kobolds lizard mounts [which only understood kobold draconic speech] using animal handling. they never learned that they couldn't ride them unless they spoke commands in kobold draconic AND broke/gentled the lizard for riding.
I don’t even play D&D anymore but always come back to your channel, because you two are creative, smart and entertaining. 😊
Thank you for your videos.
One of my favorite dungeons I ever made was inspired by tucker’s kobolds. They had a bunch of tricks but the main one is that they lived in an abandoned castle full of undead. Their little tunnels let them avoid the zombies and their traps would drop an elevator full of skeletons on you etc
16:57 Thank you, my Dude. It always boggled my mind.
DDAL06-01 A thousand Tiny deaths mention but don't use to good effect is the murder holes on the sides of Room B, C and E. Kobolds came in 40 to 400 lots in 1E. Getting Tucker to work today, would be harder due to have quickly you can change out spell slots, healing, etc. One of my two TPKs in 5E came from this module. I didn't allow a short rest due all rooms had murderholes, so I could nickel and dime the pcs to they decided to push forward. The second was during the boss fight the pcs stayed at range and in fireball formation.
Something else to consider: the players were going to be dealing with demons later. They couldn't just gear up to fight the kobolds because they were also going to have to deal with the demons.
Makes me wonder if the party was on a timeline or something. If they had plenty of time, they could have fought the kobolds, then camped out outside the dungeon before advancing on the demons. Better that than leaving hostile kobolds across your retreat path, right? Of course, it's possible the party was on a death-ride trying to prevent the demons from completing some unspeakable ritual "before it's too late!"...
The takeaway from Tucker's kobolds is that any monster can be deadly if run intelligently enough. Keith Ammann's books such as The Monsters Know What They're Doing delve into this subject comprehensively.
Easy, spend your time learning actual military small unit tactics, coordinate your team, have the morals of a seagull, and enjoy dying more than worrying about your character surviving 😎 🍀☠️
Remember, the first instance was played at Fort Bragg - a military training center.
@@grog4063 and if THOSE guys recognized a no win scenario....
I feel like I had this exact conversation with my friends Mike, Chris, and Rick in 1987 when the original article came out. 😂😂
Very fun video, and great historical commentary. The point that players need to be prepared and think, and some things have not changed in decades, is great.
I’ve gleaned lessons over the years from rereading Tucker’s, and by far, it is incredibly fun to make that standard adventuring gear useful when the other people at the table aren’t expecting it. Expecting company to come through that door? Throw an end of a rope to the party members on the other side of the entrance and make sure to pull it taut for a fun trip and easy advantage for everyone by the entrance.
They had spikes and rope and at least one of the players would have taken my favorite dungeoneering tool - the grapnel.
"Remember the seven Ps. Proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance."
You can’t suppose they choose the spells they have access to, for wizards / magic-users, in older editions. You got the spells you found.
Party: WIZARD!!! DO SOMETHING!!!!
Wizard who only prepped Fireball: 🤷♂️
Over 30 years and some things never change.
In the AD&D days there was a number of appearing stat in monster stat blocks Kobolds and goblins always showed up in numbers between 20 and 200 so they could be a threat at any level. Beyond that some of the mechanics they said they would have used didn't exist and some the spells would still have been out of range of even a 12th level magic user because there were higher level spells than 9th back then
There was also Vancian spell casting, which meant you prepared a spell for each spell slot. It also meant that upcasting was nearly nonexistent, without the use of metamagic. Instead, you had spells that would get stronger as your character leveled up.
?? No. In 1E (where the story comes from) spells were still limited to 9th Level. In fact Illusionists (&Clerics?) only went as high as 7th level spells.
The rest of your points are spot-on though...
Tucker's Kobolds took place in the late 70s, Tucker left about 1980. He actually developed the dungeon using the white box rules. Most D&Ders were also war gamers. The Kobolds didn't bunch up. It was their home territory. It was possible to get past them, but getting past without using up too many spell slots or losing too many hit points was the challenge. It was quite easy to take out a couple here or a couple there, but there were about 30 of them but they fought in teams of twos and threes. They had fall back positions, and fallback positions behind those. The other thing was they adapted. As characters learned ways to fight them, they were come up with their own counters. The biggest thing working for the Kobolds was they worked as a team, whereas most PCs tend to use the Barbarian Infantry mentality--everyone is a hero. The Kobolds had no ego to defend. They had no problem just running away. They also had ways to get behind the party as the party advanced. They were particularly effective when returning from the depths of the dungeons with few hit points, and few spells left.
Gonna use tuckers Goblins on my end campaing as the guardians of the demilich dungeon for the final arc (variant of goblins since is tematic for my setting)
There is an anime series that very much reminds me of Tuckers Kobolds and how to defeat them, it's called Goblin Slayer. It's essentially a DnD campaign where the regular parties gets brutalized by the Goblins and only the veteran "player" knows how to handle them.
I’d be willing to wager that a single well prepared scribes wizard could solo tuckers kobolds with the ability to remotely cast spells
Drone strikes.
I mean he could drop like 5 spells before even entering the dungeon so yeah
That is true for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING though, hardly a valid point when it's not something that is possible.
"Didi Yip"
I gotta play these things, man. Gonna play my first in person DnD game next week. Just subscribed.
Good on you @bobbyhill4256 I started playing about two years ago after a 20 + year hiatus. May your dice roll high
Welcome to the community brother. SKÅL!
You might want to pick up 3 Books by Keith Ammann -Monsters know what they are doing, MOAR! Monsters know what they are doing and Live to tell the Tale.
"If my back was against the wall, I'd totally drop fireball and take the damage..." This. This is the reason my sorcerer took Careful Spell and subtle spell rather than the "optimal" choice.
Maxim 20. If you're not willing to shell your own position, you're not willing to win.
And if most to all of your party is rogues they have evasion, and you don't have to be *nearly* as shy about fire support.
Played in one deathtrap dungeon were the lower level monsters respawned every time we left to go back to town. After a while, we'd fight our way through the top few levels (the first was goblins, the second was kobolds IIRC) for no real purpose at all. They couldn't harm us, they were no threat, we weren't even using any resources, all it was doing was slowing the session down. Eventually the druid asked the DM a flat question.
"Why are we doing this again?"
"Mostly because the module says the monsters respawn."
"Does it say where the monsters are coming from?"
"No. I mean, I guess there's a village or something nearby."
"So we've slaughtered hundreds of goblins/kobolds, and they STILL want to pick a fight with us? If I was a goblin, I'd take one look at us and hide somewhere until we went past."
"You know what? You're right. Let's just skip to level 4."
The
DM took respawning to be instantaneous and new monsters (Higher level and fewer of them) would probably move in. DM never understood that poulation increase is a small fraction of the total adult population and is not static - accidents happen too.
Was actually at ft Bragg (now ft liberty) after watching this video and told a colleague the story of the kobolds. Nice video. Learning how to dm better through memorable stories like this awesome!
Back when I used to play a D&D, I would keep stone to mud spell handy for dungeon crawls for just this type of situation. If the ceiling was stone, I would turn it to mud, collapsing it on the attacking monsters, and then cast mud to stone … instant cement shoes. We could then pick the monsters off at our leisure. Especially good for kobolds and goblins.
I have forgotten that tactic. I think I gave the monsters a saving throw vs magic to avoid getting stuck.
I have seen Killer Kobolds set for level 5 that even level 7 characters had problems winning as a new dungeon. The idea is it's a new group. Now that they are a level 12 group they should do better, but they appear to an army of lions - led by a sheep. The kobolds were fire resistant. All in all, good planning on Kelly and Monty's part.
I ran a oneshot for a 3player lvl10 (paladin, glooomstalker and wizard) party, ending with a white adult dragon which they met after going through kobolds in ice tunnels. Toxic mushrooms, pits, shambly bridges and thin ice for the heavily armoures to fall through landing in icy water with quipers all the while kobolds were shooting their crossbows. The players survived but will never forget those pesky kobolds
Thank you.
Sharpshooter wouldn't be much use with the split fire tactics, but spirit guardians would be brutal for the kobolds
I don't remember that spell being available in AD&D but that's probably because I never played a cleric that got high enough level.
I think that is a 5e spell, at least I don't remember it from previous editions. That would be a 5e tactic.@@pierowmania2775
@@pierowmania2775no spirit guardians that far back. Clerics are spoiled for choice now, but you generally had one damage dealing spell per level, and most were decidedly inconvenient.
So, a few things:
One, it's possible the wizard did pack magic missile and sleep, and had simply cast them earlier in the dungeon. If memory serves, the kobolds were on level 3, so the party had already gone through two whole levels of dungeon on this delve. Not to mention they still would have had to pack the light spell (remember that there are no cantrips in AD&D), in case the torches burned out.
Two, by looking at the kobolds in microcosm like this, we're forgetting all the tradeoffs the kobolds imposed. For example, every spell you pack to deal with the kobolds is one that you don't have to take out the BBEG on level 10. For anyone unfamiliar with how spells worked in earlier editions, you would prepare individual spells and then cast them. So if you wanted to cast fireball three times, you needed to prep three fireballs. Flexible casting was not a thing.
Three, it's interesting to note that the party doesn't even try to kill the kobolds. This, to me, suggests that there was little benefit to doing so, so possibly the kobolds have no treasure (which played a large role in XP advancement in early editions). The party is here to maximize their profits, and ergo doesn't try to kill the kobolds, but rather to get to the big treasure chests on level 10 (the elevators that lead there are on level 3, which is why they're going through the kobolds in the first place).
Four, the story references the author being stationed at Ft Bragg. I believe that Tucker is either a veteran or a soldier's kid, meaning he likely had experience with these tactics either first or secondhand via the Vietnam War. Any tools the party used to counter the kobolds would get countered either in real-time (as the kobolds adapted), or when they next came in to the dungeon. So yeah, you can cast sleep, but that's only going to affect some of the kobolds, and all it'll do is buy you some time to get to the exit. Not to mention that in doing so, you've now burned a spell that you're going to need later on.
Putting all this together, it seems apparent the party made a decision to try sprinting through level 3 as fast as they could once discovered, thereby trying to maximize their ROI for the trip. This clearly didn't work, and I think that highlights the best options the players didn't take:
Option #1: Kobold Genocide. Kill every kobold on level 3. Burn as many henchmen, retainers, and mules as you have to. Kill every single one of them, and then set up shop in the ruins, creating your own stronghold. Solve the problem of the kobolds by ruthlessly eliminating them. Make this the entire point of a single delve, and pack about double the supplies you think you'll need.
Option 2: Kobold Friendship. As you come in, advance one member with a flag of parley, and announce as loudly as possible that you want to speak to the kobolds. Find out what the kobolds' want, and give it to them in return for safe passage through their warrens.
I think part of the issue is the mentality of AD&D players, who expected difficulty on level ten, but not in the entrance to the dungeon. By having the kobolds use guerilla tactics, Tucker had prepared a potentially deadly encounter with weak monsters. The party leader knew about the threat, but the AD&D mentality of avoiding unnecessary encounters was too strong. The party lost their hirelings and pack animals, and could have been defeated, all because they wanted to save their resources for the fire demons on level ten.
The solution for the players was to think outside the box of their AD&D mentality, the way Tucker had. If the party magic-user had memorized Cloudkill, many of the kobolds would have been killed. But it seems like the party user was conserving spells, and the spells he had memorized were not helpful in this encounter.
TLDR: Tuckers Kobolds are also a way to tax the player's resources before the get to the demon on lvl 10. Genius.
I think one of the major points that gets overlooked is that Tucker's Kobolds aren't the real reason the party is there. They are there to kill the demon on level 10. Perhaps the reason the players weren't using any spells (Fireball, Sleep, Magic Missile etc) is because they were trying to conserve resources for the BBEG fight they knew was coming up. IMO that just makes it an even more legendary DM move. Tucker's Kobolds probably made the BBEG on level 10 an even more challenging encounter.
I accidentally made a "Tucker's Kobolds" situation with Shadowdancers in a friend's campaign I was co-DMing. I say "accidently" because of the situation. The party didn't know the Shadow Dancers were there, but the entire situation could've been avoided if a PC had just shut a door. But the door stayed open, the PC didn't actually check the room they were looking in, and three Shadow Dancers exited behind the party and took a PC down. Should note, there were nine PCs at level 10 and rated a "Medium" encounter.
hey dungeon dudes!! i have no idea what other videos you are planning but i think a video on how to run and roleplay a hag encounter would be super cool and fun, especially green hags!!
Great video as usual. Others have said it but I'll add my voice to the pile: a great 3rd episode on the topic would be how a 5e DM could adapt the kobolds to the current rules.
Thinking about this - how does fire work in dungeons? It's one thing if it's something grand and spacious, made mostly from stone with occasional flammable element, like dwarven ruins. But how would fire work in closed ramshackle tunnels with a lot of burnable stuff?
If anything - it's the PCs that should use the fire tactics for their advantage. Explore the outside of the dungeon. Find all of the ventilation shafts and block them up. Stockpile a lot of burnable stuff at the entrance of the dungeon and light it up. Use the smoke to find the ventilation holes and other exits you've missed. Kill all of the kobolds that try to run from smoke.
Then give the fire and monoxide poisoning time to do it's work, wait until everything is burned out and go explore the empty dungeon. Minding the fire damage of course.
My party died without honor or mercy in this scenario at a Con in the late 80's. The tactics came in handy when I DM'ed an old API module " The Caverns of Thantos". It was a good 5-8 adventure only slightly spoiled by a colony of about 200 cranky Kobolds that would swarm like hornets if disturbed.
Advanced DnD also requires that the wizard memorize the spells they will use into the spell slots they're going to use. While today, there's lots of magic to get around this, then there wasn't. The lessons from Tucker's Kobolds was that enemies who are thought of as weak can still be dangerous if they are smart.
Can't just one for one it.
You also got account for how much more valuable player resources were in AD&D. You would heal only 1 hp per day as long as you did nothing more strenuous than riding a horse at a walk or 2 hp if you spent the whole day on bedrest with no activity. The wizard would have been lucky to had 25hp at level twelve and was using Vancian magic so required 10 minutes per spell level to memorize spells at the start of each day and could not change them out. He also would not have any cantrips in the the way they exist in 5e. Instead cantrips would basically be prestidigitation but broken up into multiple parts.
Magic Missile also wouldn't be able to be used thru arrow slits as the offered near total concealment and Magic Missile used to act as an AOE, so you could only target creatures in a 10 cube. I might also be reading too much into it, but when the wizard asked about casting fireball, that made me think he might have been an Invoker Wizard, which would mean he would lose access to enchantment and conjuration spells, so no sleep and no summon monster. Cone of Cold would have worked but he would be using a 5th level spell on putting out fires in a 12 foot wide by 60 foot long area so probably not the best use of resources.
I do agree that they definitely should have been better prepared with mundane items, but I would never use the 10 foot pole to push back against flaming debris. It would have been too big a risk with one of the most important items to have in surviving a dungeon!
I think the brilliance of the Tucker's Kobolds scenario is the fear and panic that overcame the party that stopped them from thinking it through. Like Han Solo single handedly running screaming after a bunch of panicking Stormtroopers, or the panic stricken grasshoppers from A Bugs Life running from an ant-made bird model, this scenario is great in creating anticipatory fear in the players.
A tribute of half a dozen goats or pigs and a suggestion spell would be my preferred solution for safe passage through lvl 1
As a beginning DM, who knows how I always am when I'm playing Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale, I tend to hoard all the consumables, for "that rainy day when I'm definitely going to NEED it! I may never get another one of these again!", I actually gave a special reward (I call them Yippideedoos) to the first player who used a potion in the game. I will be ensuring that they DO get plenty of potions and scrolls, and I want them to get into the habit of USING their consumables.
I think that, with the right consumables on hand, Tucker's Kobolds would have been more easily beat. You mentioned potions of fire resistance. Also, even if you don't want to use spell slots on the low-level things, carry some low-level scrolls with you, man! I know a lot of people who, as they level up, will sell off all the low-level scrolls, because "I'm beyond this stuff, now. Scrolls are for the BIG spells you can't cast, yet!" and "I need the cash!" But, honestly, sometimes a low-level spell is EXACTLY what you need. So, keep those scrolls of Magic Missile and Sleep and other such stuff.
I really thought it was so bizarre, though, that they were planning, so carefully, for this dungeon crawl, checking the maps, and knowing the kobolds were there, and what they were like, because they'd seen them before. And yet, they didn't come prepared specifically for the kobolds they KNEW they would face, in favor of preparing for the "Probably OK" flaming demons they hoped to face.
What if, they got through the kobolds, got down to level 10, or further, and found something else, entirely. Like, maybe the Kobold homeland, or something like that? HAHAHAHAA! That would be hilarious. "Oh, instead of 30 low-level kobolds, you're now facing 100 leveled-up kobold elders."
Something I think y'all may have not considered...It's not always about the game mechanics / minmaxing, sometimes it's JUST about the players, and it CAN be a valuable teaching tool....
Consider, the story originated at Fort Bragg (now Fort Liberty), NC... In the late 80's... That means that at that time, the instillation was home to, not only standard training of US Army soldiers, it was also, essentially, the US's training ground for waging unconventional, asymmetric, and phycological warfare for not only Airborne units, but also SOCOM units, and would have been staffed by senior enlisted and officers who had served in prior real life wars, including Korea and Vietnam.
D&D started with a table top wargaming.... Those senior enlisted and officers would have come up playing TTWGs either for fun, or in the case of officers, as part of training.
Jus sayin... "Seemingly weak opponents using "primitive" tools and tactics and a system of traps and tunnels to overwhelm a "more trained / more skilled" unit preventing them from their mission objectives"... Sounds like a teachable moment to me.
Love the shirt, Kelly. Showing my age here but I saw AFI back when they were touring Sing the Sorrow. That was one hell of a gig
I love shadows (CR1) . They can really rip a party apart quickly that is not well prepared.
Sleep, even in older editions, would be a stellar spell in this encounter
I see strongholds and followers on the bookshelf. Nice!
in my "Dragon Lore Campaign" my party was sent to enter a kobold nest under the golden dragons lair. before they encountered any of the kobolds they found a statue of Tiamat. it showed a detailed image of her. later the have the chance to sneak up on some of the kobolds prepping a fight, and they choose to cast a few overlapping minor illusions of Tiamat to hide themselves. three of them spoke draconic, and the other two just made low growling noises.
I wanted a fight, but seeing how well they all worked out this plan, I made the kobolds bow in fear and praise to their god. they told the kobolds to leave this place and never return, so I made them pack their things and head for a different lair.
I want the tactical analysis of these kobolds with 2e rules, as the Gods intended.
In First edition D&D there was no such concept of up casting a spell. Yes, Magic Missile could be cast, and still be effective without upcasting.
You also got an extra missile per 2 levels, so by level 12 you had 6 missiles (level 11 technically).
Gotta keep in mind this was level one of a huge dungeon.. Can't blame the players for not wanting to use up all their resources.
These guys were playing at Ft. Bragg, NC. That means that they were part of the 82nd Airborne Division. I am guessing that they were likely not commissioned officers, so not college students.
Yes, the leader was scared and over-reacted. However, that may have been the best strategy. If the party makes a mad dash for the lower levels, they take damage each round. If they stay to fight, it takes more time and the party probably takes more damage. Worse, the party uses precious spell slots. The party should look for that middle ground -- using a small number of defensive or utility spells (darkness, fog cloud, dimension door, gaseous form) while they simply move through the encounters as quickly as possible.
You might as well have added, "these kobolds are intelligent, so a party member with good charisma and the ability to speak draconic could probably try negotiating. "
So, while the description mentioned it, it shows the biggest difference between 1st and 5th ed that you aren't even mentally acknowledging the hirelings. In 1st edition, in addition to an experience requirement, levels also had a net worth requirement that, RAW, needed to be maintained during any downtime at the risk of losing the ability to maintain your power (training, magical research facilities, etc. ). Tucker seemed to be running things very by the book from this description. Miscellaneous magic items like bags of holding were extremely uncommon, even at higher levels, and carry capacity was limited. But amongst the standard perks of leveling you also gained the qualities of leadership and could attract followers. Who were generally lower level. The biggest threat the kobolds were posing wasn't directly aimed at the players (although they were being threatened), but at the logistics chain they were needing to escort to make the delve to level 10 and back not end up a complete wash that could literally lower their own level. You do also have to consider that in 1st ed, after a certain point, you gained a flat 1-2 hp per level instead of full hit dice, let alone bonus hp for constitution. Only the highest scores even got that. This is the fundamental issue even before discussing changes to spell casting rules or things like up casting not existing befor 5th ed.
Tldr, the game is different now and the threat posed had higher stakes than it first appears.
As many (and Kelly and Monty themselves!) have pointed out in the comments in the past days, 5e is a very different beast.
However, because of this, I think there's another key factor: the *players* are very different. 5e players tend not to prepare because the game doesn't incentivize that behaviour (be it by ensuring that you can hit the monster more or less regardless, everyone having darkvision, crazy numbers, the general lack of plays on resistance/immunity/vulnerability so folks don't have to do research, etc).
I do have a character in mind who is a gnome that uses pranks to teach others how to be wary of kobold traps. I'm now rethinking him a bit.
Impatient party wants to get to the glory and rewards of level 10 without addressing the dangers of level one.
I don't know, playing a wizard in any addition of AD&D is really tough. At six level you have two third level spells, and you would have to choose which you would want to memorize. Not only that, but if you're four first level spells, you'd have to divide them up between shield and mage armor and magic missile. And remember there were no such thing as cantrips so once you cast your spells you were done, absolutely done. Combats lasted many many rounds and so if you're a wizard, you're probably going to blow all of your spells in one combat.
Back then I used to just not do anything some rounds. I would be waiting for my opportunity to drop my one well timed spell because that's all I was going to get in the entire combat.
You might not believe it, but I have no experience with dungeons and dragons, youtube feed me this channel because I recently purchased Baldur's gate 3 on steam. It turns out most of the content here is much more well explained than the "baldur's gate guides". ❤
15:45 i didnt ask how big the room is, i said i cast fireball
hate to be raining on the parade, but a couple of things stood out.
one point on the magic missile. it requires line of sight,, and most of the time the party had very little visibility on that many kobolds at a time, so it would do them little good
as for pushing back against kobolds would take time,, while the party is basically burning and being fired upon by the kobolds.
and most of the solutions neglect the action economy which between fire and crossbows happily can take out a target quickly, so the party dident have time to stand around doing all of that.
And back in the day of ad&d, wizards got one free spell per level, and had to find scrolls to learn the rest,, ,so a much more limited selection
The second problem is starting combat at Melee Range. Combat in Farmland, Grassland, Desert. Arctic or plains could be up to (6d6)x10 ft could be up to 360' (5 combat round to close for Dragonborn, 6 for those with 30' movement dashng and 7 dashing for those with 25' movement dashing. 200' is max range for all other environments. [Up to 4 dashes to close to melee range.] Most of the 'Combat Maps' start at melee, negating the use of bows due to bow attacks at 5' are at disadvantage [which they should be.] 5-7 Ranged attacks [-1 to hit for speed of travel] will cut down 2-5 attackers, making melee more survivable. Firing at the fire pushing kobolds could kill up to 4 enemies leaving the fires to burn out or be avoided.
It sounds like the moral of the story is, "prepare for the big threat and you'll be knee-capped by the small one you're not prepared for". It's like Kelly says, if the party in the story had a plan beyond "run as fast as we can and try to avoid them", then they would have fared batter.
The last 3.5 campaign I was in I was a conjurer wizard. We entered a cave system and were eventually ambushed by 20 or so leveled goblins that all poured out of one opening. The DM had hoped to swarm us, as he knew nobody had fireball or other good AoE. One Evard's Black Tentacles grappled basically all of them. Since their strength was low they would have to roll 19-20 to break the grapple only to move into another square of tentacles. The melee characters casually murdered any who snuck out. My one spell wrecked that encounter and all the ideas the DM had of doing similar hoard tactics. The magic user should have had something similar but didn't. And yes, the first spell that came to my mind with Tucker's Kobolds was Cloud Kill.
Your DM went easy on you or did not know the rules.
Goblin tribes tend to come in groups of 50-500 and back in 3.5 would often have Rogue levels.
They should have been making Escape Artist checks with their high DEX scores and skill levels instead of STR.
Thank you for your fun video. Perhaps the wizard was trying to save his spells for the big fight.
Going to give a lot context for Tucker's Kobolds, at least from the perspective of a 2e D&D fan.
First... why is the group just powering through the first level?
Understand that in the era of 1st and 2nd ed D&D, when Tucker's Kobolds takes place, wizards had a d4 for HP, max HP at first level was technically either a house rule or a frequently used optional one, and unless you had a high con stat (remember that stats were rolled back in the day), we're looking at 15+ for 2e at least, you're not getting any bonus HP on levelling up. in addition after level 10-ish, you stop gaining any significant amount of HP. After 10th level, wizards only get 1HP/Level and no bonuses for a high con.
Comparing a 12th level wizard in 5e, assuming 14 con, they would have 72HP. A 2e wizard with 14 con, at 12th level, would have, on average 2.5 HP every level until 10th (25 HP). 14 con isn't enough to get any bonus HP on levelling, and then 1hp for level 11 & 12. so 27 HP.
When the guys mentioned Fireball, in 2e it maxes out a 10d6, or 35 avg damage. even saving for half meant the wizard was down to 9-10 hp
Yes you read that right, the AVERAGE damage fireball at this level of play could one-shot the wizard. The 2e thief, with a d6 for HP and 2hp/level after 10th, would have 39HP. he'd barely survive the average damage fireball but a slightly stronger one could drop him dead. monsters, for those curious, only had raw d8's for hp and could be used as a VERY rough equivalent of modern CR, at least when it came to eyeballing if a monster is a decent challenge as an encounter. Always read the stat blocks though, some monsters have nasty abilities that the low HD might confuse the newbie GM tossing in things willy-nilly. seeing as how monsters had, on average, 4.5 hp per HD, you can see why blasting spells like fireball's 3.5 damage/caster level average was much liked.
This is also why the sudden fire trap is TERRIFYING and why one doesn't risk friendly-fire'ing a Fireball in close quarters. a couple rounds of d6 damage, meant your squishy mage could easily be down to 3/4 of their max hp and the rogue down to about 4/5ths after just leaving the starting gate.
Good luck also casting spells to get out of the fire or put it out. Before even talking about you spell list/selection, we need to talk about how you also had to stand still when casting spells, which meant you couldn't be running away while casting or it would be disrupted (and you'd lose it). Heck casting from something like a horse at full gallop or a fast moving and rough wagon might also be impossible unless steps are taken to stabilize your posture. You also don't get any dex to AC when casting and getting hit or failing a saving throw meant losing your spell. If the kobolds who locked the door behind the pc's were still somewhere within pot-shot distance, that wizard ain't casting nothing.
As for the Teleportation/Dimension Door/etc... it's not a given the mages in the original TK had access to those spells. Technically, in 2e at least, by the rules you didn't pick your initial spells. Your GM did, because those are the spells your mentor deigned to teach you. Same with levelling up. You weren't assumed to get new spells automatically and if your GM said, alright, you're level 3, you can speak to your mentor and he'll teach you a couple of spells he know, if that mentor didn't know Dimension Door, he couldn't teach it to you. You'd either have to learn it from another mage (usually with an expensive cost/quest involved), from a book/scroll (costs may vary but with a chance of failure to learn) or research it yourself (time & money not spent adventuring). As a GM I let my players pick a few level 1s on new character creation and choose a spell every level up, but by the book I don't have to let them.
Same with magic items. pre 3rd ed D&D magic items weren't stupidly rare in a technical sense, a party would usually a decent amount at their disposal, especially one with 12th level characters, but they were often randomly found or taken off of a specific enemy (Your party knows that Arthur has Excalibur, thus killing him nets you Excalibur), or if you wanted to make one it would be a quest upon itself to get the materials needed to make the item or convince it's owner you're worthy of it. The fighter may very well get a +1 bardiche before a +1 longsword even though they're a swordmaster. You'd have a variety of weird items and potions and whatnot collected along the various adventures and you'd often use them in unintended ways because you find yourself in weird situations... or somehow find yourself in the absolute perfect storm of circumstances to make use of this one item you found 6 months back for maximum impact, but you rarely had your pick of an item.
As for using magic pretty willy nilly, do note that in 2e spell preparation was a LONG and taxing affair. each spell took 10min PER spell level to prepare. preparing that single 6th level spell takes an hour out of the day. As such mages in older editions, especially higher level mages, didn't really swap out their spell lists on a daily basis as they would have to commit a day or two to do so. It was very much part of the "we're setting up an expedition" process that could take a week or two of preparation and researching the area and what would be needed, and then rationing those spells out to use a few every day until they got to their destination. you were hesitant to use those 4-5 level 2-4 spells on the early levels because that could cut off 2 or more hours of just prepping replacement spells (noting you still needed 8 hours of rest before doing so)... and if you're stuck in a dangerous area, like tucker's kobold lair, 2+hours of sitting around beyond the 8 hours of rest in an area where you're actively being hunted in, is simply more time where you could get jumped by a gaggle of armed kobolds out for revenge. Or if you manage past the first level, whatever might be lurking on level 2 or 3 or further down.
Now how many kobolds, again 2e is my frame of reference, were there in Tucker's Kobolds? Kobolds came in clans of between 40 and 400 adult males and about half that many females, and for every 40 regular kobolds in a band you'd have 3 slightly stronger ones. This isn't talking children/teen/elderly, just the adults. A kobold warren isn't just 20 chumps. it's like 350 full grown adults and whatever menagerie of giant weasels, dire earthworms or whatever they have for guard/companion animals, most of which are ready to defend their territory for the survival of the clan. a territory they have, per the story, littered with traps and hazards and honeycombed kobold-sized access tunnels.
Talking about stealth, scouting and the like, old school really only had the thief, ranger and maybe bard as decent scouters. there was no perception skill, there was no stealth skill. everyone else could attempt, technically, but those classes had better chances of sneaking around. toss in the mage having only like 4 level 2 spells available he'd have to use up his entire cache of them to keep the party invisible (assuming the mage had access to this spell), though Invisibility in 2e was cracked as hell and an absolute MVP S+++ tier spell if you had access to it. It lasts 24 hours. I assume if the party had it, they'd use it to get to their dungeon "base camp"
Tucker's Kobolds, to me, is a cautionary tale of the strength of properly executed guerilla warfare VS a group of invaders prepared to fight a different battle.
Would Tucker's Kobolds as written work for 5e as it did in the older edition? Likely not for a 12th level party who isn't playing with their heads up their asses, but that's because the circumstances around a 12th level party of 2e VS 5e characters are VERY different.
I think you're assuming a bit about the party's level. In the 80s (I DMed in the 80s), a party in a multi-level dungeon usually was expected to level up in a multi-level dungeon. In this way, such big dungeons were basically campaigns. So I could see the party starting at level 3-5, and growing to level 10 by the time they get to the 10th dungeon level.
Mad props to old man Tucker! I do think 5e gives players more tools than old rules, but the basic story remains the same. If the monsters are smart and use their resources wisely, they'll wreak havoc. I remember an encounter with a red dragon who was smart and vicious. Too bad the party had to approach the dragon's lair through DRY grasslands...
I think Tucker's Kobolds has a couple different lessons to be had. One and foremost is that not all parties are going to be going into combat situations with tactical brilliance and that shouldn't always be expected so while the DM can make an encounter terrorifying like them, sometimes they would be better served not doing so. but secondly, that resources of the players and the DM have a lot more utility than they imagine. a max level wizard can still get a lot of use out of low level spells just as a DM and players can make a mundane item and a little ingenuity into more threatening than a much more readily dangerous thing given the right set up.
and lastly, Roleplaying and character building can be done in combat and planning just as much as the High Charisma character can while talking to nobles and such. The fear in the players can be a great idea for the characters. Sure the demon king at the core of the dungeon might be the threat the world is aware of, but these constant jousts with the kobolds and their religious fanatic like focus on these dangerous traps could put distrust int he players that they can play out, maybe they have tripped so many trip wires and have had to deal with floods of scorpions, so tripping over a bench at a tavern makes them have a more visceral reaction than they expected. Trauma can be done a bit edgy with roleplay but having a response like that can be a small thing that puts more flavor into the world.
Great video.
Greetings from Colombia 👋🏽 🇨🇴
In defense of Tucker’s players how many times have players forgotten about half of the things they are able to do, and have available to them in the heat of the moment.
Overall though a good analysis.
If the kobolds are using flasks of oil to set the room ablaze, using water would be a very bad idea.
Casts create water. Burning oil does what an oil fire does when exposed to water.
Talking about what the PCs "would have had" in an AD&D game in.the early '80s (remember, the story was published in '87 but took place several years earlier, when Moore was at Ft. Bragg) isn't pertinent -- in earlier editions, it was canonical that unusual equipment, magic items, and even arcane spells were almost 100% what had been found during the campaign; the magic-user would have had Dimension Door or cold & water spells if, and only if, he'd found scrolls of such spells, inscribed them into his spellbook at significant monetary expense, and then memorized them that morning.
After roassting the poarty like this, and as DMs yourself, I think another good follow up video would be you designing a 5e tuckers encounter that could threaten a high level party with all these auto hits and devastating aoe attacks that you mention
I think this just prooves sharpshooter and the ability to just ignore cover is OP
Fundamentally, I think, the name of the game on this one is attrition. The kobolds are explicitly Level 1 of a dungeon crawl, so they don't have to be lethal to be terrifying and effective; they just have to get the party good and rattled while whittling down their hit points and resources. (For extra nastiness, I'd throw some explosive traps in there and give the players a ticking clock to worry about.)
Hahaha not only did the wizard only prepare fireball, but he KNEW he was going into a dungeon to fight _fire demons,_ let alone the kobolds.
If I remember AD&D 1st edition correctly, wizards had 'spells known', not 'spells prepared'. The 12th level mage couldn't swap Fireball for Cone of Cold if he had never learnt the latter. But he must surely have known Magic Missile or Sleep!