Fast 3D printing is bad for Strength! (and how to fix it!)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 พ.ค. 2024
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Are fast 3D-printed parts weaker? This is a question that has been discussed more and more ever since the speed printing craze started. Let me show you that you can print TOO fast on Bambu Labs printers and how custom high-flow nozzles might be able to squeeze the last bit of performance out of these printers!
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:40 Weaker Prints
03:58 New Hotend from Aliexpress
06:09 Protolabs AD
07:29 High Flow CHT nozzle
07:55 Extrusion Rate Test
09:15 Strength Tests
13:12 Conclusion
#3Dprinting #BambuLab #CNCKitchen
DISCLAIMER: Part of this video was sponsored by Protolabs.
FTC Disclaimer: A percentage of sales is made through Affiliate links - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Have you ever noticed that you printed TOO FAST?
Oh, and check out our CNC Kitchen products at cnckitchen.store/ or at our resellers www.cnckitchen.com/reseller
You don't drive a car at its top speed! 😂
Nice work, just a small thought, if the nozzle need a longer distance for the filament, then maybe the path of the filament in the nozzle could be changed to a circular downward path and end in the tip. A bit like the heat pipe in a water tank.
@Stefan,
You asked for an idea for your test pieces - how about Archimedean chords as 100% infill and 0 perimeter? This should allow you to reach the speed more likely.
General thoughts on flow rate:
When I have many identical parts to print, I often take the effort to set the layers to a different temperature for increasing the flow rate even further. It would be nice if there were a function in the slicer for this - a temperature dependency on the flow rate, or, in reality, a temperature compensation, because our material does not reach our set temperature. Perhaps we have a deviation between the measured value in the hotend and the actual temperature in the material due to the high extrusion rate. If you follow this idea further, it should be possible to establish a relation between the heating element's power and the extruder's feed rate, taking into account the thermal conductivity to consider the resulting delay in temperature correction. Therefore, I do not believe that these settings can be adjusted via firmware, as temperature changes must be made in advance. Unfortunately, I am not a programmer, but I am really interested in whether this could be used to tune the flow rate of ANY 3D printer without making changes to the hardware.
Tüdelü 👋
yes ! very poor layer adhésion issues specially with petg (X1C). days of tunning (slow down cooling and flow rate, increase temp).
Could you do a check on a Voron at high speed? Just to see if this is a generic fast printing issue or unique to the Bambu.
As always, another thorough and professionally produced video. Your content is always top tier.
Much appreciated!
Thank you for the anti-april-fools warning in the title
Just click-bait 😅
@@CNCKitchen The good kind. April Fool's day gets old quickly.
April fools day is one of the worst.
How do I find out the volume/s?
@@ReneWarsowyou can check the volume in the slicer
As always, an educated, scientific, unbiased 3d printing informative video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
To print stronger functional parts faster I use a tip from one of your earlier videos - print wider lines. For a LOT of my printing these days I'm using 0.8mm lines with a 0.4mm nozzle. With Cura 5, thin walls don't suffer, since the slicer will generate thinner lines when it needs to. You still need a higher flow hot end, of course, since printing wider lines at the same linear speeds means more plastic per unit time. Luckily my Artillery Sidewinder X2 has a Volcano hot end.
Great that you finally make a video on this topic ! Bambulab + CHT Nozzle is amazing, now need a bit more heater and cooling
@@gustavbondeus6767 I know, I tested both a monthe ago, clone and original (two monthes ago), and come to the same conslusions, I even get in touch with bondtech about this and they was pretty interrested by this sucject ;)
Yes! Been waiting for this... I've assumed the speed would compromise strength, so it's great to see it go through your usual battery of tests.
I printed my Trident 350 parts with my X1 using ABS+ on generic ABS settings. I didn't notice any part strength concerns during assembly, but now I know to do PM checks more diligently. Thanks for the info Stefan
It will be an upgrade for sure
Second this.
Will definitely be checking also
I came for the Pink Floyd.
Always happy to learn from your videos Stefan. I hope you and your work-family are doing well with the work life balance.
Awesome video.
Made pretty much the same experiences with the aftmermarket hotend + CHT.
Currently my go to hotend + nozzle combo for the x1c.
Looking forward to a hardened version.
Amazing video (as usual) Stefan. I'm glad that I can always depend on you doing proper experiments, because SOMEONE in the community needs to do it, and I don't think I have the stamina or work ethic to do this level of experimentation :) Keep up the good work.
When I first got the X1C I banged out a few parts at the default settings, and noted that the print quality was pretty good. Then I cut everything in half (from Bambu's defaults) and discovered this made the print quality *amazing*. As someone who's mostly printing ABS and then sanding and finishing it to look like not-3d-printed, running the X1C at 50% of nominal and 0.12mm layers still gets me parts in half the time the Ender-5 did, and those parts end up needing about a quarter of the sanding and finishing work that the Ender-5's production did.
Hi there what size nozzle are you running on you X1C while printing ABS
@@justinmurray8582 The standard 0.4mm. I'm usually printing at 0.12mm layers and trying to capture fairly small details on many things, so a larger nozzle isn't worth it most of the time. The exceptions don't come up often enough to bother with building up a hotend with a bigger nozzle.
Still a newbie and a former machinist I thank you for insight into issues I've been experiencing with my X1 printer and it's settings. My Ender 3 S1 Pro with Sonic Pad tuned produces faster, good finished and parts of solid structural integrity of a phone holder, clip style. Using the same material, settings (temp/flow) X1 produced gummy weaker parts that failed under the stress of the design. Again being new (December 2022) I wasn't understanding the "why's" for such failures. I will be looking into your suggested mods and settings. Thanks for your insightful efforts.
Great video! For what it is worth, my old Fortus 250 (industrial printer) runs ABS at 305C and has a meltzone nearly 40mm long. And that machine has extremely tight temperature controls and uses quality thermocouples for temperature monitoring.
Because of that I have become way more comfortable with pushing Temps through the roof while printing.
Bambu Labs said some months ago that they will be releasing their own *high-flow* nozzles. Hope they offer hardened nozzles for abrasive materials, as most current high flow nozzles aren't hardened.
Oh, I that's cool!
They seem very "agile". Constantly improving and taking in community feedback.
I love your practical scientific 3D printer testing. This is very useful information, and you provide a great education on important subjects most people don't consider, allowing us to understand our 3D printers and the 3D printing process to gain optimal results. Thank you!
I have bought the hotend and nozzle linked in the description and was able to reliably get to around 38mm^3 before visible changes between layers. Incredible upgrade for my P1S!
Wonderfully detailed as usual! Great work Stephan.
I’ve had a lot layer adhesion problems with Polymaker ASA with stock Bambulab ASA profiles. Ended up slowing things down and turning down part cooling to get acceptable strength. Definitely going to look into this mod! Thanks Stefan!
I know this is 6 months old, but I have been turning the cooling fan completely off for polymaker ASA and layer adhesion has been great.
Ah I have noticed this as well up to this point I have just been setting my print rate to 50% on the X1 for my "quality" prints but controlling the volumetric flow rate is way smarter. Thanks for the tips and the research!
Again and again, this is a really interesting subject ! Thank you for all the work
As always, Stefan, thanks for an excellent deep dive!
Finally. A video about something I realized a long time ago from many videos prasing klipper-enabled machines and their ridiculous speeds.
But I still did not hear an explanation of how the increased part cooling fan speeds, that comes with the increase in print speed, affect layer strength...
After pushing my hbot to max extrusion rates my parts were coming out all matt and I really liked it but never knew they were weaker.
thanks for the info!
Thank you Stefan for another super informative video. The work you do is so valuable. I just bought the new Ankermake M5 and have experienced the same issues as addressed here. The Bambu may be my next and having this info makes the decision much easier.
Thank you for the scientific and especially concise context. Everyone should draw the necessary conclusions for themselves. Personally, I find 12mm³/s to be completely sufficient. Great video!
Such an informative video. Thanks! This is a worthy upgrade for a printer that is possibly the most capable in the market at the moment so thank you for showing this.
i swear i could listen to the line 'hi im stefan' on loop for like 10 hours, the way you say it is simply beutiful
It seems like Bambu Labs is constantly improving it's printers. Hope they see this and add this to a future revision.
I was thinking the same thing. They should change to a high flow nozzle as the default.
@@Nerlin They would be stupid to not develop and offer drop in replacement highflow units. Most people who have bambulab printers dont want to muck about with aftermarket stuff. Just being able to buy the solution directly would be very advantageous.
I hope they do as default stock.
@@tHaH4x0r I agree. I have 2 X1Cs
Build a VZ-Bot. The Bambu Labs X1C is a toy compared to it
Great depth to this topic. I admire your work. Great video
ive been waiting for this video after seeing all the speed benchys, really interestign result and great production as always. might be worth trying out a thin "wall" like sample or a vase mode based one in an attempt to reach the higher speeds
Excellent as always. I enjoy all of your content Stefan! Bravo!
Great video as usual!! My existing printers are dialed in and working well. I decided to sit back and watch (and save up my money) as this next generation of printers like Bambu are perfected. Then I will jump in and enjoy the benefits.
Fantastic video. I would like to see if the strength tests change if you print each coupon separately to see if there is a difference when the layers do not have time to fully cool down.
Thanks! I have noticed pretty bad layer adhesion and really appreciate the help in understanding the issue
Glad it helped!
Whelp, I was wondering how long it would take, but here we are. That's an instant purchase for me. Thanks for testing Stephan
AWESOME video!!! Upgraded to 0.6 nozzle and print quality went to the toilet! Thanks for the tip on the extrusion rate, will try it! Thank you! Really appreciate your work! Hope one day someone makes an after market hotend that can use standard V6 nozzles!
You can replicate almost all of the benefits of a 0.6 nozzle by changing extrusion widths to 0.6 while using a 0.4 nozzle.
You lose the ability to do layers that are 0.4mm+ but you gain being able to do 0.1 or less. You also get much better quality.
In almost all cases, the 0.6 nozzle print speed increase is a result of the larger widths, not the higher maximum flow rate. It sounds like you might be pushing that. The cht style nozzle has a significantly higher boost to flow rate than going to a larger nozzle. Same for the volcano style setups.
The trick is to print your outer layers at a smaller width and the inner layers much, much larger. I'm able to get away with half of my prints times are typically from the external perimeter, even with infill values of 50%. You almost can't see the layer lines. Only the seams are readily visible.
Incredibly eye opening. Thank you for doing this.
Awesome video as always. What this actually makes me wonder, is whether the good old 2.8mm filament might be due for a bit of a comeback.
Changing the diameter of the filament affects the feed rate by the inverse square of the proportional change in filament diameter. Meanwhile the distance from the hotend wall to the center of the filament only rises linearly (but so also does the surface area available for heat transfer). So the question basically becomes: Is plastic such a bad conductor of heat that fully melting a 2.8mm filament takes more than 2.56 times as long as 1.75mm filament.
If that is not the case , the achievable flow rate for 2.8mm filament should be higher in a heating zone of the same length.
Thinking about this further this is probably one of the reasons why for bigger extrusion systems the pellets are usually not melted by heating them externally but rather through the friction imparted by the feed screw. In a system like that the flow rate of material and the amount of energy transferred into the material should be largely coupled as long as you adjust the turn rate of the screw to always have the same pressure in the system.
Mega aufwändig, mega schlüssig, mega aufschlussreich! Vielen Dank für dieses Video!
Stefan, I always enjoy your videos and the dedication you put into making them. Here is an Idea for a video. Testing linear systems, for instance difference in drag between genuine Hiwin rails vs Aliexpress ones, difference between smooth rods and linear rails, difference between carbon fiber rods vs smooth ss rods vs linear rails. Also maybe how big of a difference does lubrication of choice affect smoothness of gliding. and in the end which solution is the best regarding weight to least amount of drag during sliding.
When I make parts for press fitting bushings , I use concentric infill to reduce accelerations and keep print speeds faster at 100 percent infill. Should help with your coupons too.
Another nice video that's very informative. I've already ordered the replacement hotend so that I can use my existing V6 nozzles in my X1C if I want to but now I'm ordering a couple of those CHT nozzles made to match the Bambu Lab nozzle length.
Yes, the replacement hotend/heatsink with removable/changeable nozzles is expensive to start with but when you consider it can used for many inexpensive nozzles rather than having to replace the comparatively costly Bambu Lab options every time your nozzle wears out, they end up much less expensive in the long run and offer more variation. That and they make changing nozzle sizes/types much faster, no more having to break down the whole carriage assembly and swap entire hotends just to change nozzle size. Bambu only offers stainless steel and hardened steel while V6 style nozzles come in brass, plated copper (my favorite) and various specialized nozzles like ruby, titanium or obsidian plus many other variations/combinations of tip style/metals. I'll never need most of those since I normally use plated copper or hardened steel when it's needed but I like having the option of using my collection of plated coppe/brass nozzles back, not to mention being able to use the V6 style hardened steel nozzles that I already own rather than having to buy Babmu hotend replacements. I'll keep ordering the Bambu Lab hotends for the hardened steel nozzles when I need them, the AliExpress aren't much cheaper and I trust the quality of the Bambu slightly more. AliExpress can be great but you never know what you might end up with (off center holes, poorly machined surfaces/threads, low quality materials, etc.).
Wow, another impressive video.
Thanks for sharing your experience with All of us 👍😃
I have waited so long for this video! :D, but will you do a test of the bambu/polymaker materials at stock speeds?
I had the same problems with my X1C.
Thanks for the solution.
You're welcome!
Brilliant work 😎 Keep your great work 👍🏻
I always appreciate your dedication and content, along with your extensive testing. Great video as usual!
Wirklich sehr gutes und fundiertes, fast schon wissenschaftliches Video! Danke und Respekt!!
So now we need super slicer to let us vary extrusion temperature based on volume flow rate with a comp value for heat up time just like with the fan. I’ve wanted this feature to lower the temp during bridges for a while.
Great video Stefan, thanks for addressing this!
Saustarkes Video! Beantwortet alle Fragen! Vielen Dank dafür!
I just got my first printer and was trying to think about what was causing the change in gloss between layers when I stumbled on your video before bed. You saved me at least an hour of parsing through unhelpful reddit threads.
Thanks for the explanation and test.
I confirm using the default bambu ASA setting results in poor layer adhesion.
I was able to get acceptable results by setting the speed to 50% of the preset.
I feel your suggestion of limiting the max flow rate is a simpler and more reliable way to achieve the same.
genau das Video das ich gebraucht habe!
I bought a 0.6mm Nozzel for my X1C and was quite disappointed in the speed gains. Ever since I was wandering wether the CHTs from ALiExpress were any good.
I'd like to get a high speed nozzle, but my 3d printer uses m8 threads, which apparently is not standard... I can't even find a source that sells them other than resellers of the original OEM.
This was a really great video explaining so many facets related to high speeds. Thank you.
This explains so much. I was wondering why some of my parts were coming out with inconsistent surface quality. I have been tweaking the max volumetric rate, with better results. But I still didn't understand why it was happening. I love any excuse to mod my printers, so I guess it's time to make some aliexpress purchases!
just printed a benche on my new x1 carbon. noticed the change in shininess right away but still it was crazy fast!
bambu should give the option to bulk purchase parts like costco. the key to printing fast is lower cooling and flow. high flow 0.8mm clones on all three of my machines. love that transition into the sponsor message.
Very nice video as always! Keep it up! By the way, when will you review the Prusa MK4? Cheers!
Awesome video Stefan! Sending love from Australia 🧡
Thanks guys!
As always, an objective no nonsense fact based scientifically tested approach to solving a real problem. This is my go to channel when I need to research issues related to 3D printing.
For the adhesion test i you could do single or multi-walled cylinders and print in vase mode. Since you have a cylinder layer adhesion might still be the weakest link. might be worth a try. The bigger the circle the less the acceleration limit.
It's awesome to see e3d makes bambu high flow nozzles now.
I've thought about posting about this. I'm glad you are sharing. Tuning to a flow rate is what I've always done, since my super racer is faster than most materials can handle. So what I do to utilize the speed is maximize the flow rate and then lower my layer height until I either hit my max speed or smallest layer height.
How fast does that mean you end up printing?
@@travistucker7317 at most, I print quality parts at 400mm/s @60,000mm/ss.
@@ManjaroBlack what layer height does that generally happen at?
Thank you again my 3d printing brother! 🎉
Really interesting flow tests! Great to see those aftermarket options performing so well. The standing tests are pretty useless though. Since they’re in batches, the layer time is many times higher and there’s lots of time to cool down. Printing 12 samples 200mm/s is going to end up extruding on plastic pretty much just as cold as 12 samples at 50mm/s
CNC Kitchen, can you do a vid on price to performance with filament?
like what is the cheapest filament that still prints decently or what is the best filament for high accuracy. I'm still pretty new to 3D printing and there is a lot of brands out there and I have no idea what I should buy.
I've noticed this after printing 330 hours with my bambu x1c.
Been printing with PETG a lot and when i switched to PC the performance were worse.
I was trying to anneal the prints, with PETG , to compensate for that with SOME improvement but not enough.
Test done with ERYONE PETG 255°C hot end, 200 mm/s (standard profile) 10% Fan MAX.
So the parts printed with PETG at those settings are now much more brittle than 60 mm/s and tend to break like PLA.
Instead of deforming and yielding like PETG printed on a ender3 at 60 mm/s (for example).
I absolutely want to try the 3rd party hotend with the CHT "like" nozzle.
THANK YOU STEFAN!
Excellent video, thanks for making it! Why not use a standard flat tensile test coupon that would allow you to reach the needed speeds?
US mechanical engineer here, I really appreciate that the strengths were also given in ksi. 👍
Looking forward on you testing the genuine E3D obXidian nozzle…
I wonder what that stabilization systems are like in the Bambu Labs printers, and other printers.
I think that you could use centrifugal force to change the direction of the movement/inertia in the Printer Head to keep it from shaking.
Kind of like how it's easier to move your hand quickly in circles or ovals without moving your body, than it is to move your hand quickly left to right.
Great video, Stefan! I hope Bambu Labs listens and learns from your experiments and findings.
Very useful information. Thanks. I bet the manufacturer is taking notes.
Thanks. I'd like to see a similar test for PETG, which is my most used filament.
Great video, I can't wait until you compare the bambu with the new prusa mk4
sorry for my english, congrats for the amazing videos you make.
so if I put the acceleration and speed parameters, for example of the prusa mk3, should I get resistant pieces, or do I need to touch some other parameter to do this?
you could do tests as only you know how to do 🤩 , to understand the best parameters, use if you want speed or resistance
Thank you
I have had a smoothieware delta for the last about 7 years. It has been my workhorse till it was damage in a earthquake. With the stupid amount of time I have put on this printer (wish i had a hour meter but just not possible at this point). It was the first printer I owned with the capabilities of going into the 200mm/s - 250mm/s range. I feel like your findings mirror what I learned over the years with that printer. If I wanted to print fast, part strength often suffered, and even details at times. I would often run it much slower than it could go, even more so when printing smaller plate volumes.
You might also want to consider revisiting annealing the parts that you found previously weak. Not as big of a deal on PLA. But for ABS, and Nylons you can see noticeable differences. Its more noticeable on these materials if you run a high bed temp and chamber temperature. As you can experience annealing while printing, when doing multi hour prints in these materials.
Thank you for not doing the dumb shit on April fools like releasing a pointless waste of time video. This video is so great and informative!!!
Good stuff! Excited for the RatRig!
I would love to see your final profiles
Great video! Back to square one!
Congrats for all the job!
Thanks.
As always, nothing is just better, thx for the video dude
You might be able to increase the diameter of your test piece (beyond the grip point, obviously) as a cylinder, rather than a convex rotation. That would allow for a larger percentage of each print being at the target speed.
This is great work!
A good way to avoid the acceleration issue in the test coupons would be to use perimeters for the primary fill of the part, as the concentric pathing will avoid the harder acceleration points based on the linear infill, and will be more consistent as it avoids the inevitable changes in extrusion speed required to keep consistent bead width when doing harsh direction changes.
Wow, that was really interessting! Thank you!
Hi Stefan, in terms of checking part strength I'm wondering if printing some functional parts and simply cutting them for visual inspection might be another data point? It strikes me that whilst the numerical approach adds more objectivity, the visual inspection is going to be informative - just as Orca uses visual inspection to judge quality as you showed in this video.
Great video as usual! Did you notice the same quality / strength issues when printing with input shaping on the MK4? I am wondering if that little reduced speed compared to the Bambu Lab actually gives a better strength.
Would be amazing if we could import a good setting for the bambu printers from others who had experiment already.
excellent segue, didn't see it coming..
Would love to see you testing the actual temperature inside the tip of the brass nozzle instead of the heating block, maybe with a 0.5mm thermocouple
Awesome video... thank you. Have you been in contact with Bambu? Do you think they will add the high volume nozzle to their ecosystem? Given the attention to detail they've done overall you would think this addition would be pretty straight forward.
You're getting some great sponsors stefan!
Thanks for a great video!
Any chance you can investigate the vertical rippling arftifacts issue on Bambu printers as well? It tends to line up with hotend flow limitations too
In my specific case any print speed less than 180 mm/sec result in quite noticeable vertical rippining on the parts (not an echo, this type of artifacts is usually referred as VFA). In the end, I am left with a dillema: print slow to get somewhat strong parts with a surface quality of an Anet 8, or print fast to get somewhat decent surface quality and sacrifice the part strength. The fact, that there is no sweet spot is kinda disappointing, especially given the cost of X1C
Printing fidget toys, I haven't noticed the matte vs glossy too much. Possibly due to the printer not being able to get to the max accelerations? However even if it was, for the stuff I'm printing it's working great :).
For strength tests, I'd be interested to see what results you'd get if you used higher extrusion temperature for your high print speed tests! And then higher enclosed ambient temperature on top of that!
Yeah I am pretty sure you can solve these kinds of issues with a higher wattage heater cartridge & turning the temperature up which decreases the time needed to melt the plastic. A copper heat-block also helps because it both increases your heat throughput and reduces the lag between the heating cartridge and the hot-end. I print at about 23 mm3/sec and don't have any issues with an e3d v6. It's like $20 in upgrades.
Excellent video Stefan. I really think Bambu has hung their hat a little too heavily on "Speed" and they need to tune in "Quality" presets. My own tuned profiles are significantly slower but more reliably produce better looking & stronger parts (anecdotally). My X-1 gets a lot of use with these profiles and I'm much happier for my needs.
Hi there.
Can you share your updated profile settings for different material
PLA,TPU,PETG ,etc? It would help a lot of us that are getting into 3d printing with this Machine.
Thank you.
Are those profile published anywhere per chance?
If not it would be really appreciated on the discord!
The quality out of the box was better than any of the previous 5 printers I've owned and 3x as fast.
@Broski Snowski I know about Orca,but sometimes getting the profile from somebody who lives and breaths 3d printing is a better base to start from.
You should make those test samples with the same surface area but an extreme aspect ratio, making one dimension long at the middle section will give the printer enough time to accelerate up to speed.