Car Audio All-Pass Filters - Correct them or use them? Explained!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
- When we interface with a factory car audio system we often times face challenges to use the factory signal for an aftermarket speaker system. There might be equalization we need to correct, or channel summing may be required to achieve a full range signal. But another challenge in today's latest vehicles is All-Pass Filters. What is an All Pass Filter? Why do the OEM's use all pass filters and how do we correct for them with a DSP? Should we? Can they be used to create a two seat tune? Let's learn about all pass filters and their use in car audio!
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Hey guys! This one took quite a bit of time with all the screen recording to do the live demo so any support you can show on the video is appreciated! Thanks for watching and sharing!
I nearly sprained my thumb clicking the like button. This better be worth it, Mark!
Seriously, keep up the good work.
Where do you get that closed cell foam you use to wrap around our wiring?
Thanks for explaining, and showing in a simple manner. ( I'm fortunate, I live close to Dean&Fernando,& have had Dean explain this to me in person before.) As a 12volt enthusiasts/hobby/diy, the more we discuss, the more we'll be getting it.( think nack to 5-6years ago with dsp.)👍🏼I'd like to see more, on this exact subject matter. I have a 21, A4, non amplified system, and am fortunate to have a pretty flat, factory output signal. However, some dsp amps, have de-eq'd, and reversed my speaker polarity, and sounds ok. Some amps I've used, no dsp, have sounded better to me. Sometimes, what the factory has done, isn't always bad. But, we must remember, audio will always be subjective to the listener.
Mark, can you do a video on doing a 2 seat tune, and how you would use all pass filters and time alignment on a aftermarket DSP to optimise the response for both driver and passenger.
Hey dude. I've had the opportunity to talk to Nick Apicella and Doug Dobson about the two seat tune they did in Doug's old Kia Optima, which is my current vehicle. First of all you need a center channel up-mixer. And I can tell you from my own personal research the best would be Helix whether it's a DSP or DSP amplifier with "real center" up-mixer, but also one of the newer features called virtual channels. For the tune you want to use no time alignment with the microphone placed in the driver's seat. You will apply an all pass filter to the mid bass to give that separation that Mark is describing here and in a similar fashion to how OEM applies it for optimal two seat listening. In conjunction with the center channel up mixer (real center). You will also use (if you buy the right audiotech Fischer piece that has it) virtual channels. You will create left and right virtual channels for all front speakers, extracting out the center information. For example your left mid-range would have a virtual channel that plays 85% left and 15% center information. You would play with all of this until you find what suits the vehicle best. Finally you would verify the two seat tune by moving the microphone to the passenger seat to get it as close as possible. Trust me I've been researching this for over a year now and it seems that the SQ community is way beyond caring about it anymore. The main point is you'll never get a two seat tune as good as single seat. But if you get a Helix remote controller then you can set up multiple tunes and switch from your single seat to a 2 seat, passenger seat, party mode, etc.
I really apologize if I just dumped a ton of useless stuff on you but as much as I love this channel, I'm more of a Helix fanboy over audio control. It will get you much closer to a two seat tune than the latter.
I would love to see a more in-depth video on different ways to find the all pass being used and how to correct it. Again great video mark
Fantastic video as always Mark. Learning so much from your incredible skillset. Your professionalism is second to none. Love your attention to detail. Definitely one of my favorite channels to watch. Thank you for what you're doing. You inspire me sir. Your time and effort toward these videos is Much much appreciated!!
Huge thank you to Mark and Audio Control!!!
Didn't know much about All Pass Filters... thanks for digging in a bit, nice to see new content on a less common subject. Now, would you show us how to use them at our advantage with a custom two-seats tune?
Thanks! Being new to this, your videos have allowed me to avoid the years of mistakes it would have taken for me to get the system I was imagining. I get goosebumps every time I play music now. Thank you for all your hard work and dedication to car audio.
Wow! Really appreciate the donation. Thanks for watching and glad the videos helped, stay in touch!
Wow. This is one of the most comprehensive and comprehendable video I've seen explaining all pass filters. Thanks again Mark!
Appreciate that, thank you for watching.
You always make great videos to get my mind thinking deeper. Thank you so much!!!
With this video now in your archive, maybe you could assist the community in understanding how one/two seat tunes work!
Thanks again!
Thanks for watching
You explain really easy to understand. very specific, thank you for your great video
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching
I like that you didn’t add any BS…. Good job and good info. Basic yes but good job as always, thank you Mark!
Quality video, very helpful. Thank you!
I'm very passionate about sound and making cars. I'm Vietnamese and want to learn more from you guys
This is may favorite video you have done, I took notes, I want more!
The new Audison dsp software, for the new forza amps, have some great tools for correcting this,
It is interesting thinking about a two seat tune and why the factory did what they did. Need to experiment with this.
BTW, love the office background lighting, it looks great!
Great explanation as always. Thanks buddy!
Thanks for tuning in! This one took a ton of time!
Mark….PLEASE make a video explaining the more advance method of determining all pass filter phase relationships. There is not much good simple info explaining this. Your vid was exceptional!!
A video on how to use an RTA (Max would be cool) to set up a 2 seat tune would be amazing!
Mark very good job man.
Great video
More please😊
Hey Mark can you do a video on the miniDSP C-DSP? I'm interested in picking one up for my car and I'm interested to see what you think about the product. I own one of their 2X4HD DSPs and I love it.
Awesome video. What about same-side driver combinations? So instead of using an APF between L&R channels, how about using one between the L midrange and L tweeter, for example.
I think it’d be great if you started focusing on videos like this; there aren’t many other options for this channel as you’ve done about as much as you can with what you started out with. It would be great to see more videos getting into the weeds of what happens between the speakers and ears. There’s not much about that anywhere other than scientific papers and the like.
thank u sir
Please make the more advanced video. It could help out a lot of guys, as phase can be a tricky subject to wrap your head around!
A while back, I was thinking in my head how cool it would be to have this feature. I called it, "selective spectral phase inversion". Needless to say, it already exists! (at least, with Audiocontrol DSPs) Are there any other DSPs that have all pass options?
Yup, My Tacoma JBL system has no integration as of yet. I was told by the installer that this generation was in transition to the 2024 wiring.
I recently upgraded the speakers and added a sub to my 2015 Tahoe using a pac to get the signal to rca. The system is step back from the bose which was tuned to the truck, would you suggest getting a dps or and aftermarket head unit?
Question 1: Have you tried the Rockford Fosgate DSR1 on newer vehicles with iDataLink?
Question 2: Do you know if there are any converters from MOST 150 to iDataLink?
I am thinking about getting a xmax or the rtma. What do you recommend for integration and general calibration? Cheers
How would we use an All Pass Filter with an aftermarket headunit and dsp to create sound staging for multiple seats?
I'd like to have good sound staging for me as well as for my front and rear seat passengers.
Would I keep the settings on head unit (hpf, lpf, crossover) at 0 and adjust all those settings on aftermarket amp or dsp?
So if I have a peak that happens around 1000hz does that mean that I have my speakers out of phase and it has an all pass filter from the factory? Or can I apply one to make it dip back down?? Cause I'm having a lot of issues with the electrical response from the signal. I feel like I could test it by simply switching the polarities of each channel. But I wanted to see if you had thoughts on what this could be
Is it possible to just add an amp and sub to a system with all pass filters to get better bass frequencies?
I've been on the fence about switching to an external standalone DSP, but I feel I'd end up regretting it (based in cost). I still have an older vehicle with an aftermarket head unit (Kenwood DDX9906XR), CDT Audio components, Image Dynamics subs, and Zapco amps. My head unit has on board DSP but I was thinking of adding the 16 channel DSP unit from Zapco. I just think the gains would be marginal. On a new vehicle and using the factory head unit, a DSP would be a must.
Every system can benefit from DSP. Your head unit is not offering the same level of options as a dedicated DSP would. I'd recommend learning on your existing system, then when you do need to interface with something more complex it won't be as daunting a task. You can always move it from vehicle to vehicle.
I have 2016 Honda Pilot with Factory Amplifier. I have an AudioControl D-5.1300 hooked up to my Hertz 1650.3 mille Component Set Active. Everything sounds great except for the voices in the Music. Evey song echoes like a concert. Can this be something to do with All Pass filters and can it be fixed? It is starting to get annoying especially listening to Hip Hop Rap music. Thanks for any help
I have purchased the JL VX1000/5i and C3 6.5's for the fronts and C2 6.5's for the rear of my 2024 High Country 3500HD. I am at a complete standstill as to what to do next so the system sounds the way it should. All of my installers around me say they will not do the install as it will not sound good until there is a true factory amp integration for the bose system. What else would I need to get this going in my truck?
It’s because the VXI is the wrong amp for your application. Use a Helix V EIGHT or a V TWELVE if you have the Bose ultimate system (centre channel, a pillar tweets) the VXI you bought doesn’t have the right processing capabilities (no input EQ correction) or the correct amount of channels for your truck WITHOUT an amplifier replacement module. I have done a V EIGHT on the standard Bose system, integrated channel for channel and got amazing results by keeping the oem phase processing and utilizing OEM speakers doing a global eq to get better results than the factory. Louder, cleaner. Then if my clients want to upgrade their speakers, I would use a wide band on the dash and 6x9 in the door to keep the sizes the same as we will keep the phase processing and by doing that with 2ohm drivers the amp will push more power, therefore more volume potential. 5 channel amps don’t work in these vehicles anymore. The Bose system is using APF like mark is explaining in this video. The VXI does have the capability I believe to correct for them acoustically but you only have enough channels on that guy for your front stage, not your rears. That’s probably why your installers won’t do it, because they know it will lack in performance.
@@Dman199739 forgive me, as I only know so much about this stuff. I went with JL cus I heard they were really good stuff. I didn't think my truck had a center channel? My 2020 Denali didn't have one, so I assumed it just had the dash tweeters, 6x9 front doors, and 6.5 rears.
I personally have never heard of helix, so I'm looking forward to doing some more research on it.
@@Dman199739 I had another thought, couldn't I also use the VXi amp with a JL AUdio FIx 86 and use that for input EQ correction? I already have the VXi amp bought and used it in my 2020 denali, and it sounded fine and got really loud, but I know that I can get better sound.
The fix 86 will sum the outputs and doesn’t correct APF. Summing the outputs electrical when it has an apf will cancel the frequency response electrically like mark is showing here. It’s an outdated product and has been for 10 years. Your truck has 7 active channels dash, doors, rears and sub. You can’t just do a 5 channel and an expect an upgrade. Unless you’re taking the time to correct all APFs and frequency response issues then in the end you’re going to downgrade to a passive front end.
Which car is that 00:06 ?
Just gotta use any Audison Forza dsp amp can correct 99.9% of all systems even with all pass filters etc etc
I prefer to understand what it is that a DSP is doing rather than just relying upon a automated process. There may be cases where you want to keep them, as discussed in the video.
@@CarAudioFabrication oh yeah no I get what you are saying in the video
I dont use the auto process
Ken ward taught me to do it manually :)
Someone using 180 phase on tweeter only, why? have any specific reason
PS Sounds also using most of the case 180 phase on tweeter
I'm having trouble buying some audio system, I want to put in my car a 13 channel system,
With 4 tweeters, 4 mids, 4 woofers and 1 sub, but I don't know to wire the amps and where to where I can connect, and how many amps I need
I'm really seeing your videos like a Tv show, but I still don't know how to do it
The reason I want a 12.1 ch is that I see that some cars already came from factory with a 13 or 14 or even 17 ch audio system and I want a premium audio. I really appreciate music and I want something like I'm with earphones and I can hear every tone, every instrument.
Can you please make a video planning a 12.1 system? Please
I think you have some wrong ideas about sound... The most obvious is that a system with 4 tweeters, 4 mids, 4 woofers and one sub is not a 12.1 channel system. Another one is more speakers does not mean more quality...
@@mindtraveller100 I really new in this type of systems, and this will be my first, but I'm seeing some car's like range rovers , mercedes and lexus with more than 13 speakers.
The car I'm trying to install is the Land cruiser 200 basic version, but even the full option of my car model comes from factory with a 13ch JBL synthesis
That's why I'm thinking in that
Soo, what happend with 4x12s ??
Projects take time.
I want that dick shirt you're wearing 👊!! Been following since the early days and can still say honestly that you bring some of the absolute best content to the car audio community!!👍 Thanks brother!!
I'm gonna go to a reputable shop to get my system tuned...
Nothing wrong with that if this is a lot to understand. For the best performance though these things do need to be done correctly
Don't get me wrong I'm all about getting educated. It's just that if I don't know where to start I'll be spending more time trying to figure it out than having a solid starting point. You videos do give some insight, but I think a deep dive into a dsp tune would better put things into perspective.
@@CarAudioFabrication also want to say that my build is going to be fully active 3 way front and rear on a 2024 truck... So I face way more obsticles than the conventional install.
I am looking for a dsp to control everything, currently looking at the dd audio dsi-3 or c-dsp. Both 12 channel dsp. My 3 way is stereo integrity.
I was looking at helix dsp... But that 3x the cost of my other options.
Descubrió el hilo negro
Doug sent me here. He wasted two years of my life. Hopefully I can learn something here
I wonder if anyone would notice the time difference.
Can you explain what you mean?
@@CarAudioFabrication Time/phase alignment. How many people would notice the difference?
Only an audiophile. Most people just know sound come from a speaker😂.
If you compare them A-B, you'll notice that the time aligned system will sound better. You may not be able to pinpoint the difference right away, but eventually you will.
Wow, what a terrible name for it 😁 Why not call it a phase filter or something. I hate when things are named confusingly. Maybe there is some reason for this?
People definitely like to over complicate things.
Think of it as all frequencies passing. They technically are, and then the filter affects the phase of the frequency range it is applied to.
Car manufactures should be required to have front, rear left right 4v full range outputs accessible in the trunk!!!
It would potentially cost them $10 per vehicle so that will never happen. A defeatable processing option would be great though. I'd take that all day
Very nice explanation, but quite complicated if no one has seen your videos before.
However i have a request. Can you make video exlaining how to set the "Q" on dsp's?
I only found one video of a guy explainig the formula dividing frequency by bandwith.
Does this apply here to car's DSP's?
Thanks.