i fucking LOVE maggie's writing. something about the repetition of it (especially the way the prologue & epilogue of the dream thieves is written) is so so so good. also, it kinda connects the 'time is a circle.' thing imo and it's like ughhh- it's so so so good & brilliant imo.
no but like i LOVE how maggie's writing makes sure that adam's abuse is NOT just a passing thing. its there ALL the time, (like she said) adam's deaf ear is constantly mentioned, his pride is a continuous factor in everything he does, and its mentioned that he's terrified of becoming like his father.
Okay but “The Raven Fuckboys” is iconic lmao. I do laugh at the jokes about the plot being indescribable because the subplots do get very unhinged* at points (*affectionate) lmao. Also so wild to me that people hate Adam. He’s such a good fucking character, regardless of whether or not he’s “likable” (imo, MORESO bc he’s not likable.) I do find the Gray Man interesting just bc I enjoy the juxtaposition of a hitman who’s into poetry lol. Also the prologue of The Dream Thieves is one of the best things I’ve ever read, genuinely.
hahah I love The Raven Fuckboys. They're my boys for sure. It is hard to describe what it is about but that's just because its so complex (!!!) And omg, agreed. The whole Dream Thieves is one of the best things I read but yeah the prologue is perfect.
on the kavinsky thing - i feel like kavinsky was purposefully framed to mirror ronan in particular, and also someone like adam too. he had otherworldly magical powers and was also clearly struggling with things, but unlike ronan, he continues to make self-destructive choices, whereas ronan chooses something different. it would undermine the whole thesis of the dream thieves for both him and ronan to somehow survive. maggie was clearly trying to make a point with ronan’s character in this book and it would have been redundant for her to make the exact same point with kavinsky’s character, at least in my opinion
Exactly! I've actually made a whole video about "the dream thieves" and in that I talk a lot about exactly that - how the whole point with Kavinsky dying is to empathize that Ronan and Adam doesn't.
I also feel like Kavinsky needed to die bc he wasn’t at a point to where he wanted help. Helping someone who doesn’t want the help usually doesn’t actually help them. If he had wanted to change then I’d be more mad abt him dying. He did so much bad stuff and he didn’t have any desire to change. He wanted Ronan to join him in this very self destructive situation. He’s an interesting character and I can understand being invested to see what happens with that character and if he has a redemption arc or not. He didn’t want one so it made it not deserve one. I also feel like he did too much bad stuff as well to justify a redemption imo.
honestly, it's so funny to me that the only opinions of adam in this fandom are in the extreme. you either love him absolutely and he becomes your favourite character ever or you hate him. also, i firmly believe that people who hate adam just didn't understand his character at all. he is the most human of them all tbh and it actually checks out when you read where maggie stiefvater got the idea of adam's character from! anyway, it probably is very much evident from my pfp but adam is just everything to me istg.
I'm currently doing my third re-read of the Raven Cycle and the Dreamer books to prepare for Greywarren. I pick up new things every time I read and just get a deeper understanding of the characters. I love Maggie's writing style and for those that say there is no plot to the book I say I really don't care. It's about the journey not the destination. I'm really going to be sad when the Dreamer series is over 🥺
That's exactly it! At every reread you discover new things and details. It IS about the journey and the journey feels different every time you read the books! I honestly without being over dramatic don't know what I'm gonna do when it's over???
Ok, sorry for the essay, but I love Adam and this series a lot so . . So funny story about Adam and the fandom. I was a fan of Maggie Stiefvater prior to this series and started reading them before there was much of a fandom around it. I adored Adam throughout the entire series. By the end of the Raven Boys, he was easily my favorite and the one I was the most interested in. That literally never changed. The only other person who I knew who read this series didn't like him, so I went online and got crushed seeing everyone else calling him annoying/etc while other characters got this beautiful meta written about them. I quit engaging with the fandom, and really there wasn't much of one at the time anyways. Fast forward a bit, and I'm reading the Tumblr fandom metrics and see Pynch (Adam/Ronan) as a favorite ship of the year. I was like "wait . . .???" Because no only did that imply Adam's popularity, but that the series had a more engaged fandom. I assumed Adam would gain popularity after Maggie revealed his sexuality and became the love interest to one of the most popular characters, but I didn't think anyone would like Adam for Adam. I thought they'd like Ronan and see Adam as the acceptable love interest, and honestly I was happy to assume even that. It was like a Twilight Zone episode checking out Tumblr tags. Not only did Adam seem beloved, but I honestly struggled to even find anyone talking about Blue or Gansey. It was surreal. I jumped on AO3 and literally laughed seeing how dominant Adam/Ronan was. The more I engaged with it, the more it seemed to me Adam was actually even MORE popular than Ronan. When Mr. Impossible came out and everyone yelled at Ronan for how he treated Adam and begging for more Adam, I was still just floored. I still remember how upset I was that no one else liked Adam. Seeing him get so much love makes me so happy, but I wish I had seen the transition instead of seeing the one extreme at the start to now. It reminds me of a quote, not exact, but Adam says something like "no one likes a rags to riches story until they've made it" (something along those lines) and I think about that A LOT when I think about the fandom's reaction to him. It's almost too on the nose lol. To be fair, though, Adam was set up to play a dubious role in the story initially. Maggie really made it seemed like he could've been set up as the villain. There's visions about him killing Gansey, who he's extremely close to and jealous of. There were built in motivation for potential violence against Gansey too with Adam's abuse, fears he'd turn violent, etc . . . It doesn't help that most YA readers know he's going to lose Blue to Ganesy, the losing side of a love triangle, to the guy he has such a fraught relationship with. That also meant he was just in the way of the main ship. I think people just didn't trust him. Then Maggie pulls a brilliant move and reveals that Adam's been part of two love triangles, it's just no one but Ronan knew about that one. Adam's role with the larger story also becomes clear too. Eventually it was quit obvious he had much more roles to play than the jealous guy who kills Gansey (thank God). Also, I've noticed people have no issues liking unlikable characters or characters with negative traits as long as it's something cool and the reader isn't made to feel uncomfortable about it. But when a character has faults that written in a way to deliberately make the reader uncomfortable or have to actually deal with them in a way (rather than writing it off as some kind of badass or girlboss coolMccool) some people sour on them. I personally adore this when it's a genuinely good person struggling through faults and really trying to work through them and fight them, but not every reader does. I'm just glad people came around on Adam and now I get to enjoy lovely edits with his quotes, fanart, meta, fanfic, etc . . .
Firstly - thank you so much for all your comments! It made my day and it was such a treat reading them! 🙏❤️ Secondly - your point about how the "rags to riches" quote also fits the readers relationship to Adam, it killed me I cannot believe I didn't think of that!! That's soo true and so unbelievably terrible. But also - 100% on purpose from Maggie. I came in the fandom pretty "late", around -16/17, so I read all books in a row and then entered the fandom, and It would have been so interesting to have been a part of the "is Adam the villain" discussion and seeing people come around. Because just as you say Adam IS meant to make the reader uncomfortable, the scene where he tries to make Blue kiss him is awful. And that's why it's so good haha. Like I said in my TRB video i like Adam because he's unlikeable for real! Not a "cool-fiction-unlikable" but an actual flawed person.
@@obviouslyqueer I enjoyed hearing so much about the Raven Boys! It's one of my favorite definitely. I saw that line scrolling through Tumblr tags and was like "oof." I think even Maggie is surprised by how hard the fandom pulled a 180 on Adam. My sister was so sure Adam was going to kill Gansey 😭. And I agree! He's a mess and has so many unlikeable moments, but that's what makes him such a good character and way more meaningful when he struggles to get better.
Kavinsky is absolutely irredeemable. Like she said, he killed his father and best friend AND GOT AWAY WITH IT, he drugs his mother, and he’s just and all around asshole. Yes, he had problems but that absolutely is not an excuse for anything he did.
Agree! I think Kavinsky is a wonderful character, he's written great and really important for the book but he's a terrible person? I talked A LOT about Kavinsky in my Dream Thieves video if you wanna check that out!
I completely agree that Dream Thieves was perfect. I personally love Ronan myself. I absolutely loved your comebacks to these peoples rediculous reviews. These people just don't understand the suttle art of foreshadowing. You know... I even feel like I missed some stuff but both of these series are still amazing. I think that these are series that need to be read more then once in order to completely understand everything that's going on. So far I've only reread the first two books in the Raven Cycle. But I will eventually reread everything.
Haha, love this. I am pretty sure I went through 1 stars before too (not on booktube), always good for a laugh. Especially people who like conflate their preference with “good writing”. Like some people just hate descriptive writing and call it purple all the time, when really, it’s pretty much a hallmark of good writing. Hate it when authors are evocative, like bland shit. Haha. Ugh. People are dumb.
Yeeaaaah exctly!! "I'm onE of tHoSe sNooOobs" like no everyone likes different things but literally everyone wants the book to have good writing. Thank you! Glad you liked it!! 🥰
HiiI! I'm coming here after having finished the raven cycle for the first time just yesterday and wanting to fill the void it left behind! I am living for this video / your analysis of everything / your sweater / your humour / your editiing???
Omg all of your comments made me so glad 😭😍 thank you A LOT! The books are very male-centric and as mentioned in the video i do think that would bother me more if i hadn't read the dreamer trilogy? You really should read it, it's so good i think and the female characters are amaaaaaaazing 🙏
@@obviouslyqueer oh, so nice to read that you appreciate my comments :) I just really needed somewhere to put my left over trc obsession energy x) Yes, I need to get to call down the hawk, but I feel like I should give it a bit of time between, to not expect it to be the fifh book in the series, you know. but I'm looking forward to reading it eventually! and maybe I can then even scream about the conclusion of the series in real time?! what a concept! :D
I think that's super good idea! I really love the dreamer trilogy, but I know a lot of fans were disappointed bc it does differ A LOT in themes and tone. It's a very different series, much darker. But if one is prepared for that and - like in my case - even like my stories a bit more serious and sad it's a wonderful reading experience.
I absolutely adore The Raven Cycle series and Maggie! It's by no means the best, but I feel like Maggie's storytelling and "writing voice" is very similar to mine. It makes reading it very relatable and understandable to me. It's really hard for me to read and enjoy most ya novels because of it, but I can read any book from the raven cycle about three times a day. And i actually really love Blue, she is like so many girls i know in my life, its so easy for me to imagine her as a person and understand her. With that being said i found myself struggling to enjoy her choices near the end of the series. But she is still, in my opinion, a much better female protagonist than most ya novels i have read! I also really loved the grey man and rather enjoyed the sub plot with Blue's parents for some reason. It nearly mirrored my own family, so again very relatable writing. The only "issue" I have is that I felt at many points, the timing felt very off. For example I was very disappointed on how they gave Noah closure and helped him move on. Don't get me wrong, I want nothing more than for Noah to move on to a better place and to stop suffering, but I felt it was rushed and it felt like he was just brushed off in his later chapters. It was disappointing because he was my favorite character my first read-through. Especially during a time where I had no friends or anyone to talk to, I too felt like a ghost at that time, and it was interesting seeing a character as such portrayed this way in a novel. Im glad he got closure, I just wish it was greater than it was. Same issue with Henry. I don't mind Henry as a character, I just feel as though he should have been fully introduced WAY sooner! But instead he just felt like a hasty Noah replacement. And don't get me started on Gansey and the ending. Where people feel the plot and the books are too slow, I definitely feel we needed more. And I feel we should have gotten one more book in the series. The main characters and events are fleshed out so well but it seems like some side characters and the finale didn't have enough time or space.
Thank you for your comment! I actually like Noah's ending, bc even though it was closure it was also a sacrifice - to not be remembered, to slip from time, to not be more. And I love angst and I think it serves the story that everything doesn't work out in a perfect way. Absolutely agree Ganseys ending and Henrys introduction were way too rushed!
I just found your channel and this video was sooo good! Had me laughing all fourteen minutes and fifty five seconds! I just read the raven cycle and I’m obsessed, definitely looking forward to your next videos
I love this video and your takes on the books (I also don't know exactly what an adverb is and laugh at the comment with you anyway 😅). I didn't know TDT was meant to be the first book, that is pretty cool. And I completely agree with you about Adam, I found him extremely annoying while reading the books for the first time but only after a while I realized that my hatred of him was because of how much relatable he is! He is an extremely relatable character to me and I love him for it, he is far from perfect but he is growing and learning. I think Maggie's writing for this series, and I imagine that it is the same for her other books too (I didn't read them), is very complex and very subtle, you have to read between the lines a lot to understand it and to like it and I think that is why some people don't like the books so much. Some people don't want to think while reading a story and don't want to relate to those characters in real life, they just want to read about perfect people with perfect lives and perfect happy endings and these books are really far from it. I enjoyed the books much more after my second read because of it, so maybe I'm just projecting 😅😅. Sorry for the longest comment ever.
Do NOT apologize for this wonderful comment it's the perfect length when you have such good and smart things to say! I do think a lot of people who disliked Adam in the start did so bc we are not used to seeing such a real flawed character as one of our main, especially not in the classic "dark, moody and hot" - way that men can be in YA. But just a normal, annoying person, just like oneself.
The series is SO MUCH stronger at a second reread, i liked it the first time but i LOVED it the second time. The story and the language is so complex it demands a lot from the reader, and it's the best when you're prepared. I don't think her other books have AS MUCH between the lines as TRC but the style and her way if writing is exactly the same.
omg yes i agree about the writing style. i was listening to it through audio, and i had to replay sections more than i usually do because my brain was struggling to keep up with my visuals & mimicking sensations when more special descriptions were coming up. sometimes i had to pause after a section and soak it in. but i loved it, even with all this added work to really understand and enjoy what i was hearing (or the ungodly amount of words i searched up to understand if the vibe i was getting from them matched the actual definition). the writing was absolutely wonderful to me and provided a particular feel to the story that i dont think would have been there had it been written any other way
I think that that The Raven Boys was the easiest book to understand in TRC. The talk about the ley lines is sometimes a bit confusing but for the most part the general plot isn’t they difficult to understand. I can understand getting lost with the last 2 books bc there are parts in those ones that are quite confusing and I understand getting lost and confused. I can understand that to an extent with the 2nd one if someone is confused with the rules of how Ronan dreams
Yeah the rules and regulations of Ronans dreaming (and dreaming overall) are really blurry tbh, and it took me the second reread to grasp it and buy it as a plausible "power"
I know I am a year late to the party but it is relevant to me now, so I'm sorry for my belated rant! lol I can't stand this author's writing. I was so disappointed to realise that because I have seen this series in several fandoms for years. I am a fan of mythology & mystics, and I looove character-driven books so it seemed to be right up my alley... Turns out, I do not understand Maggies writing at all. I have to constantly reshift my mental image in almost every scene because Maggie added something (or even someone!!!) in the middle of a dialogue and IT. IS. EXHAUSTING. I don't know how you all do it, sincerely! Every scene is like "he turned back to face Gansey..." --> what do you MEAN???? A paragraph ago, he was looking into Gansey's eyes so they were clearly facing each other already WTF? I know a writer doesn't have to describe every single gestures and expressions the characters do, but at least keep it coherent within the same scene please 🤣 Also I can't understand the fact that characters don't notice things/people or even flat out forget about them. It is simply not something that I can comprehend. It makes me think of these horror movies where the camera pans out and the killer dissappeared: yeah it's understandable for the viewer but definitely NOT understandable for the main character --> do you not have peripheral vision??? Do you not have 4 other senses that could alert you to the killer moving?? I simply do not understand, and I say this with no judgement for the people who do of course. I want to be like you, I want to enjoy these books so much because they seem to have everything that I love!! I have tried to read them 3 times this past year alone and I inevitably end up putting them down. I am currently stuck mid-second book and the thought of having 2,5 more to read is actually distressing me 😭 I like Ronan though, he's my favourite. Adam is cool, I like his strugles as I resonate with the class disparity a lot. Blue is a realist and I obiously relate to that aspect of her. I can't stand Gansey, he's insufferable and I don't understand for the life of me why are all those awesome people so fascinated by this mediocre piece of white bred in boat shoes 😂😂😂
Kavinsky was honestly one of the best side characters, and he died exactly like he lived: in a horrible, auto destructive way - "Boom" (cit.). The only thing that doesn't convince me is that he's family is supposedly from Bulgaria... that's a bit improbable. Bulgarian surnames usually end in -ev, -ov. I'd bet my money that this is either a Russian, Polish or Ukrainian surname. It's present in Polish and Russian databases. Prokopenko sounds unmistakably Russian to my ears, but Kawinsky a bit more like a Polish surname, a good chunk of them ends in -iński, -yński, -eński, Anyway, that's pure speculation and just me being a stickler. I always find myself gravitating towards unlikable characters so it's no surprise that I liked Adam from the very beginning, what actually doesn't sit well with me is the Adam/Ronan romance. It starts somewhere in the third book with Adam saying that he's aware of Ronan's feelings - no flirting, no uncertainty, he just states it as a fact and there's very little to no build-up to that realization. On Ronan's side... Well, I guess that at the end of the second book there's that line about Adam being his secret or something along those lines... Fine, but during the entirety of the second book Adam was literally the last thing on Ronan's mind. And then they kiss during that party and I'm supposed to believe that they're in love? Huh... No. I won't lie, I'm sort of pissed off at this whole romantic sub-plot, because I genuinely love the series and liked those characters separately. My main problem is - Maggie Stiefvater is fully capable of writing good, slowly developing relationships and she proved that with Blue and Gansey but that whole Ronan/Adam thing feels just unsatisfying and rushed. I hope that The Dreamer series will solve that in some way.
I just finished the first book. I feel for Adam but because of his upbringing he is a character that needs to work on himself before getting into a relationship with blue. I like Gansey for blue because he’s mentally stronger and stable while Blue seemed like a mom or sister worrying about Adam. Too many subplots about Gansey x Blue and the ley line and so on. I honestly want to know more about Blue’s father
Hello and welcome to the TRC - fandom! ✨ Glad you found my channel, there's a lot of raven cycle content here if you end up liking the series. So exciting! Agree with you on your thoughts about Adam and Blue. He needs to work a lot of things out on his own before being ready for a relationship. Thank you for your comment and let me know when/if you read the dream thieves!
@@obviouslyqueer let's see if I like this second book better because the first one had a great world building but little interpersonal interactions between the main character and the rest which made it boring for me but things can change later on who knows
Unfortunately I didn't finish the saga because it was never entirely translated into Italian, only the first two. I loved the story and the events, the mystery, I discovered the ley lines and other things, loved it all. But. The characters never gave me anything, I only continued because I liked the setting. I hated Adam, I don't even know a word to describe it, every time he opened his mouth I felt like rolling my eyes, my expression was always be like 🙄😒😤, or "please stop talking. I understand the situation but COME OOON". Always complaining, despising(? What is the English word for a disgusted hatred?) the help of his own friends (they want to help you, they don't think they're better than you, come ooon). I hated Adam, I hate it to this day, every time he comes to my mind. Fortunately a publishing house has taken over the saga and is about to translate and publish the entire saga. I will buy it and try it again. Anyway, besides my hatred for Adam, I remember that I found some parts a bit confusing, some parts funny, so yeah, this is my unwanted opinion. I hope my English is understandable, although I understand it well, my writing and my speaking are leaking.
Just reread the cycle for the upteenth time. And every time I tell people about why I love the books, one of the reasons I say is that there are characters in there that I dislike. That are not villains. Because I (too) dislike Adam. Or disagree with him. Either way I probably wouldn’t get along with him in reality. But I don’t think he‘s a bad character. On the contrary. It makes the story even better. Because who needs that picture-perfect kind of character bs. That’s not real at all.
Yeah exactly! I love Adam though, but as a character. But/because he's so flawed. He has real, not cute, personality-traits and therefore goes through real, uncharming struggles and growth. That's one of my favorite things with the books too!
I originally came here to gain insight into what makes these books appealing to you, but my feelings haven't changed: I still don’t enjoy them. I struggle to see the positive aspects you’ve highlighted. It’s important to me to express that I believe differing opinions should be respected and valued in discussions like this. After all, everyone's perspective is shaped by their individual experiences, and it's perfectly acceptable to have contrasting views. For some of us one star was what these book deserve, why is so hard for you to accepted, why you all feel so offended..
I had mixed feelings on the books( I read the first two ), I loved the characters and I do feel like they developed in terms of the relationships to the others a bit in the first book ( which was interesting) but not adequately in the second book for a character piece. I feel like the first books plot was complicated but it ultimately wrapped it the characters motives into a main goal for the reader to share, in the second book i was just confused ,I understood the plot sure but ,things were just happening that didn't add or inhibit the characters goals ,just slowed them and the plot down , like Kavinskey capturing Ronans brother (which is kinda out of character) and then jumping off a building for just no one to feel that sad about him dying? Honestly I feel like if a different writer was given the same characters ( shout out to Gansey my ultimate kin) and the blurb they could write a much better book. The characters and scenarios were not suited to the stagnant character piece the book was( compared to say normal people as an example for good character delving scenarios). Ultimately i would say it was marketed incorrectly and the fantasy element was trivial in adding anything to the story , the most interesting bits were descriptions of the setting and the internal dialogue of the characters.Anyway that was very rambley but i appreciate your perspective as someone who really enjoyed the series:)
Thank you for your comment! Obviously I disagree haha, the second book is my favorite and I find it very necessary and forward moving. It's Ronan's book so for the other character it kind of stops but Ronan it's so necessary for his plot and goals. If you haven't watch it I recommend my video "Is the dream thieves the best book ever written" haha. But i agree with you that the magics isn't the books strongest piece! The characters is, but I think Maggie's the only one that could have written them this well. But again thank you for your comment and thoughts!
I don’t trust people who hate Adam Parrish.😅
Haha me neither, good call! 💕
i fucking LOVE maggie's writing. something about the repetition of it (especially the way the prologue & epilogue of the dream thieves is written) is so so so good. also, it kinda connects the 'time is a circle.' thing imo and it's like ughhh- it's so so so good & brilliant imo.
no but like i LOVE how maggie's writing makes sure that adam's abuse is NOT just a passing thing. its there ALL the time, (like she said) adam's deaf ear is constantly mentioned, his pride is a continuous factor in everything he does, and its mentioned that he's terrified of becoming like his father.
Exactly!! 🙏❤️
Okay but “The Raven Fuckboys” is iconic lmao. I do laugh at the jokes about the plot being indescribable because the subplots do get very unhinged* at points (*affectionate) lmao. Also so wild to me that people hate Adam. He’s such a good fucking character, regardless of whether or not he’s “likable” (imo, MORESO bc he’s not likable.) I do find the Gray Man interesting just bc I enjoy the juxtaposition of a hitman who’s into poetry lol. Also the prologue of The Dream Thieves is one of the best things I’ve ever read, genuinely.
hahah I love The Raven Fuckboys. They're my boys for sure.
It is hard to describe what it is about but that's just because its so complex (!!!) And omg, agreed. The whole Dream Thieves is one of the best things I read but yeah the prologue is perfect.
You understand the characters, and story so well. So nice to listen to someone who actually gets it 🙌🏻
Thx! I'm glad you agree! I love these books (as you can tell) so your comment made me really happy! 💃✨
on the kavinsky thing - i feel like kavinsky was purposefully framed to mirror ronan in particular, and also someone like adam too. he had otherworldly magical powers and was also clearly struggling with things, but unlike ronan, he continues to make self-destructive choices, whereas ronan chooses something different. it would undermine the whole thesis of the dream thieves for both him and ronan to somehow survive. maggie was clearly trying to make a point with ronan’s character in this book and it would have been redundant for her to make the exact same point with kavinsky’s character, at least in my opinion
Exactly! I've actually made a whole video about "the dream thieves" and in that I talk a lot about exactly that - how the whole point with Kavinsky dying is to empathize that Ronan and Adam doesn't.
@@obviouslyqueer omg yes i watched that video straight after! love your videos and keep up the great work!
@@seanam5729 thank you so much! That means a lot! 🙌😍
I also feel like Kavinsky needed to die bc he wasn’t at a point to where he wanted help. Helping someone who doesn’t want the help usually doesn’t actually help them. If he had wanted to change then I’d be more mad abt him dying. He did so much bad stuff and he didn’t have any desire to change. He wanted Ronan to join him in this very self destructive situation. He’s an interesting character and I can understand being invested to see what happens with that character and if he has a redemption arc or not. He didn’t want one so it made it not deserve one. I also feel like he did too much bad stuff as well to justify a redemption imo.
honestly, it's so funny to me that the only opinions of adam in this fandom are in the extreme. you either love him absolutely and he becomes your favourite character ever or you hate him. also, i firmly believe that people who hate adam just didn't understand his character at all. he is the most human of them all tbh and it actually checks out when you read where maggie stiefvater got the idea of adam's character from! anyway, it probably is very much evident from my pfp but adam is just everything to me istg.
broo this comment made my day i couldn’t agree more
Exactly, THANK YOU!!
I'm currently doing my third re-read of the Raven Cycle and the Dreamer books to prepare for Greywarren. I pick up new things every time I read and just get a deeper understanding of the characters. I love Maggie's writing style and for those that say there is no plot to the book I say I really don't care. It's about the journey not the destination. I'm really going to be sad when the Dreamer series is over 🥺
That's exactly it! At every reread you discover new things and details. It IS about the journey and the journey feels different every time you read the books! I honestly without being over dramatic don't know what I'm gonna do when it's over???
Ok, sorry for the essay, but I love Adam and this series a lot so . . So funny story about Adam and the fandom. I was a fan of Maggie Stiefvater prior to this series and started reading them before there was much of a fandom around it. I adored Adam throughout the entire series. By the end of the Raven Boys, he was easily my favorite and the one I was the most interested in. That literally never changed. The only other person who I knew who read this series didn't like him, so I went online and got crushed seeing everyone else calling him annoying/etc while other characters got this beautiful meta written about them. I quit engaging with the fandom, and really there wasn't much of one at the time anyways. Fast forward a bit, and I'm reading the Tumblr fandom metrics and see Pynch (Adam/Ronan) as a favorite ship of the year. I was like "wait . . .???" Because no only did that imply Adam's popularity, but that the series had a more engaged fandom. I assumed Adam would gain popularity after Maggie revealed his sexuality and became the love interest to one of the most popular characters, but I didn't think anyone would like Adam for Adam. I thought they'd like Ronan and see Adam as the acceptable love interest, and honestly I was happy to assume even that.
It was like a Twilight Zone episode checking out Tumblr tags. Not only did Adam seem beloved, but I honestly struggled to even find anyone talking about Blue or Gansey. It was surreal. I jumped on AO3 and literally laughed seeing how dominant Adam/Ronan was. The more I engaged with it, the more it seemed to me Adam was actually even MORE popular than Ronan. When Mr. Impossible came out and everyone yelled at Ronan for how he treated Adam and begging for more Adam, I was still just floored. I still remember how upset I was that no one else liked Adam. Seeing him get so much love makes me so happy, but I wish I had seen the transition instead of seeing the one extreme at the start to now.
It reminds me of a quote, not exact, but Adam says something like "no one likes a rags to riches story until they've made it" (something along those lines) and I think about that A LOT when I think about the fandom's reaction to him. It's almost too on the nose lol.
To be fair, though, Adam was set up to play a dubious role in the story initially. Maggie really made it seemed like he could've been set up as the villain. There's visions about him killing Gansey, who he's extremely close to and jealous of. There were built in motivation for potential violence against Gansey too with Adam's abuse, fears he'd turn violent, etc . . . It doesn't help that most YA readers know he's going to lose Blue to Ganesy, the losing side of a love triangle, to the guy he has such a fraught relationship with. That also meant he was just in the way of the main ship. I think people just didn't trust him. Then Maggie pulls a brilliant move and reveals that Adam's been part of two love triangles, it's just no one but Ronan knew about that one. Adam's role with the larger story also becomes clear too. Eventually it was quit obvious he had much more roles to play than the jealous guy who kills Gansey (thank God).
Also, I've noticed people have no issues liking unlikable characters or characters with negative traits as long as it's something cool and the reader isn't made to feel uncomfortable about it. But when a character has faults that written in a way to deliberately make the reader uncomfortable or have to actually deal with them in a way (rather than writing it off as some kind of badass or girlboss coolMccool) some people sour on them. I personally adore this when it's a genuinely good person struggling through faults and really trying to work through them and fight them, but not every reader does. I'm just glad people came around on Adam and now I get to enjoy lovely edits with his quotes, fanart, meta, fanfic, etc . . .
Firstly - thank you so much for all your comments! It made my day and it was such a treat reading them! 🙏❤️
Secondly - your point about how the "rags to riches" quote also fits the readers relationship to Adam, it killed me I cannot believe I didn't think of that!! That's soo true and so unbelievably terrible. But also - 100% on purpose from Maggie.
I came in the fandom pretty "late", around -16/17, so I read all books in a row and then entered the fandom, and It would have been so interesting to have been a part of the "is Adam the villain" discussion and seeing people come around. Because just as you say Adam IS meant to make the reader uncomfortable, the scene where he tries to make Blue kiss him is awful. And that's why it's so good haha. Like I said in my TRB video i like Adam because he's unlikeable for real! Not a "cool-fiction-unlikable" but an actual flawed person.
@@obviouslyqueer I enjoyed hearing so much about the Raven Boys! It's one of my favorite definitely. I saw that line scrolling through Tumblr tags and was like "oof." I think even Maggie is surprised by how hard the fandom pulled a 180 on Adam. My sister was so sure Adam was going to kill Gansey 😭. And I agree! He's a mess and has so many unlikeable moments, but that's what makes him such a good character and way more meaningful when he struggles to get better.
Kavinsky is absolutely irredeemable. Like she said, he killed his father and best friend AND GOT AWAY WITH IT, he drugs his mother, and he’s just and all around asshole. Yes, he had problems but that absolutely is not an excuse for anything he did.
Agree! I think Kavinsky is a wonderful character, he's written great and really important for the book but he's a terrible person? I talked A LOT about Kavinsky in my Dream Thieves video if you wanna check that out!
I completely agree that Dream Thieves was perfect. I personally love Ronan myself. I absolutely loved your comebacks to these peoples rediculous reviews. These people just don't understand the suttle art of foreshadowing. You know... I even feel like I missed some stuff but both of these series are still amazing. I think that these are series that need to be read more then once in order to completely understand everything that's going on. So far I've only reread the first two books in the Raven Cycle. But I will eventually reread everything.
Thank you! I'm with you, I LOVE Ronan and therefor I LOVE TDT. You have a treat coming up rereading all of them, and then rereading it again.
Haha, love this. I am pretty sure I went through 1 stars before too (not on booktube), always good for a laugh. Especially people who like conflate their preference with “good writing”. Like some people just hate descriptive writing and call it purple all the time, when really, it’s pretty much a hallmark of good writing. Hate it when authors are evocative, like bland shit. Haha. Ugh. People are dumb.
Yeeaaaah exctly!! "I'm onE of tHoSe sNooOobs" like no everyone likes different things but literally everyone wants the book to have good writing. Thank you! Glad you liked it!! 🥰
HiiI! I'm coming here after having finished the raven cycle for the first time just yesterday and wanting to fill the void it left behind! I am living for this video / your analysis of everything / your sweater / your humour / your editiing???
Omg all of your comments made me so glad 😭😍 thank you A LOT! The books are very male-centric and as mentioned in the video i do think that would bother me more if i hadn't read the dreamer trilogy? You really should read it, it's so good i think and the female characters are amaaaaaaazing 🙏
@@obviouslyqueer oh, so nice to read that you appreciate my comments :) I just really needed somewhere to put my left over trc obsession energy x) Yes, I need to get to call down the hawk, but I feel like I should give it a bit of time between, to not expect it to be the fifh book in the series, you know. but I'm looking forward to reading it eventually! and maybe I can then even scream about the conclusion of the series in real time?! what a concept! :D
I think that's super good idea! I really love the dreamer trilogy, but I know a lot of fans were disappointed bc it does differ A LOT in themes and tone. It's a very different series, much darker. But if one is prepared for that and - like in my case - even like my stories a bit more serious and sad it's a wonderful reading experience.
I absolutely adore The Raven Cycle series and Maggie! It's by no means the best, but I feel like Maggie's storytelling and "writing voice" is very similar to mine. It makes reading it very relatable and understandable to me. It's really hard for me to read and enjoy most ya novels because of it, but I can read any book from the raven cycle about three times a day. And i actually really love Blue, she is like so many girls i know in my life, its so easy for me to imagine her as a person and understand her. With that being said i found myself struggling to enjoy her choices near the end of the series. But she is still, in my opinion, a much better female protagonist than most ya novels i have read! I also really loved the grey man and rather enjoyed the sub plot with Blue's parents for some reason. It nearly mirrored my own family, so again very relatable writing. The only "issue" I have is that I felt at many points, the timing felt very off. For example I was very disappointed on how they gave Noah closure and helped him move on. Don't get me wrong, I want nothing more than for Noah to move on to a better place and to stop suffering, but I felt it was rushed and it felt like he was just brushed off in his later chapters. It was disappointing because he was my favorite character my first read-through. Especially during a time where I had no friends or anyone to talk to, I too felt like a ghost at that time, and it was interesting seeing a character as such portrayed this way in a novel. Im glad he got closure, I just wish it was greater than it was. Same issue with Henry. I don't mind Henry as a character, I just feel as though he should have been fully introduced WAY sooner! But instead he just felt like a hasty Noah replacement. And don't get me started on Gansey and the ending. Where people feel the plot and the books are too slow, I definitely feel we needed more. And I feel we should have gotten one more book in the series. The main characters and events are fleshed out so well but it seems like some side characters and the finale didn't have enough time or space.
Thank you for your comment! I actually like Noah's ending, bc even though it was closure it was also a sacrifice - to not be remembered, to slip from time, to not be more. And I love angst and I think it serves the story that everything doesn't work out in a perfect way. Absolutely agree Ganseys ending and Henrys introduction were way too rushed!
I just found your channel and this video was sooo good! Had me laughing all fourteen minutes and fifty five seconds! I just read the raven cycle and I’m obsessed, definitely looking forward to your next videos
Thank you so much!! 🤗🤩 Glad to have another obsessed raven cycle fan with me! Looking forward to having you here 🙏
I love this video and your takes on the books (I also don't know exactly what an adverb is and laugh at the comment with you anyway 😅). I didn't know TDT was meant to be the first book, that is pretty cool. And I completely agree with you about Adam, I found him extremely annoying while reading the books for the first time but only after a while I realized that my hatred of him was because of how much relatable he is! He is an extremely relatable character to me and I love him for it, he is far from perfect but he is growing and learning.
I think Maggie's writing for this series, and I imagine that it is the same for her other books too (I didn't read them), is very complex and very subtle, you have to read between the lines a lot to understand it and to like it and I think that is why some people don't like the books so much. Some people don't want to think while reading a story and don't want to relate to those characters in real life, they just want to read about perfect people with perfect lives and perfect happy endings and these books are really far from it. I enjoyed the books much more after my second read because of it, so maybe I'm just projecting 😅😅.
Sorry for the longest comment ever.
Do NOT apologize for this wonderful comment it's the perfect length when you have such good and smart things to say!
I do think a lot of people who disliked Adam in the start did so bc we are not used to seeing such a real flawed character as one of our main, especially not in the classic "dark, moody and hot" - way that men can be in YA. But just a normal, annoying person, just like oneself.
The series is SO MUCH stronger at a second reread, i liked it the first time but i LOVED it the second time. The story and the language is so complex it demands a lot from the reader, and it's the best when you're prepared. I don't think her other books have AS MUCH between the lines as TRC but the style and her way if writing is exactly the same.
omg yes i agree about the writing style. i was listening to it through audio, and i had to replay sections more than i usually do because my brain was struggling to keep up with my visuals & mimicking sensations when more special descriptions were coming up. sometimes i had to pause after a section and soak it in. but i loved it, even with all this added work to really understand and enjoy what i was hearing (or the ungodly amount of words i searched up to understand if the vibe i was getting from them matched the actual definition). the writing was absolutely wonderful to me and provided a particular feel to the story that i dont think would have been there had it been written any other way
I’m about 60 pages into the dream thieves, and I enjoy it a lot.
It's great! My best! Have you finished it?
OMG I love your sweatshirt! I want one thats a hoodie
Thank you! I don't think this specific shop has it but there are so many great trc-sweaters on Etsy!
I think that that The Raven Boys was the easiest book to understand in TRC. The talk about the ley lines is sometimes a bit confusing but for the most part the general plot isn’t they difficult to understand.
I can understand getting lost with the last 2 books bc there are parts in those ones that are quite confusing and I understand getting lost and confused. I can understand that to an extent with the 2nd one if someone is confused with the rules of how Ronan dreams
Yeah the rules and regulations of Ronans dreaming (and dreaming overall) are really blurry tbh, and it took me the second reread to grasp it and buy it as a plausible "power"
I know I am a year late to the party but it is relevant to me now, so I'm sorry for my belated rant! lol
I can't stand this author's writing. I was so disappointed to realise that because I have seen this series in several fandoms for years. I am a fan of mythology & mystics, and I looove character-driven books so it seemed to be right up my alley... Turns out, I do not understand Maggies writing at all. I have to constantly reshift my mental image in almost every scene because Maggie added something (or even someone!!!) in the middle of a dialogue and IT. IS. EXHAUSTING.
I don't know how you all do it, sincerely! Every scene is like "he turned back to face Gansey..." --> what do you MEAN???? A paragraph ago, he was looking into Gansey's eyes so they were clearly facing each other already WTF? I know a writer doesn't have to describe every single gestures and expressions the characters do, but at least keep it coherent within the same scene please 🤣
Also I can't understand the fact that characters don't notice things/people or even flat out forget about them. It is simply not something that I can comprehend. It makes me think of these horror movies where the camera pans out and the killer dissappeared: yeah it's understandable for the viewer but definitely NOT understandable for the main character --> do you not have peripheral vision??? Do you not have 4 other senses that could alert you to the killer moving??
I simply do not understand, and I say this with no judgement for the people who do of course. I want to be like you, I want to enjoy these books so much because they seem to have everything that I love!!
I have tried to read them 3 times this past year alone and I inevitably end up putting them down. I am currently stuck mid-second book and the thought of having 2,5 more to read is actually distressing me 😭
I like Ronan though, he's my favourite. Adam is cool, I like his strugles as I resonate with the class disparity a lot. Blue is a realist and I obiously relate to that aspect of her. I can't stand Gansey, he's insufferable and I don't understand for the life of me why are all those awesome people so fascinated by this mediocre piece of white bred in boat shoes 😂😂😂
the fact that you love the raven cycle and I'll give you the sun? you have God tier taste bestie 🌠
Oh my thank you a lot haha! ❤️👯♀️🏳️🌈 I obviously think so 👼
i love ur sweater IM GONNA CRY…I NEED IT
Thank you! You can buy it on Etsy! I've linked the creator in the video description!
Kavinsky was honestly one of the best side characters, and he died exactly like he lived: in a horrible, auto destructive way - "Boom" (cit.). The only thing that doesn't convince me is that he's family is supposedly from Bulgaria... that's a bit improbable. Bulgarian surnames usually end in -ev, -ov. I'd bet my money that this is either a Russian, Polish or Ukrainian surname. It's present in Polish and Russian databases.
Prokopenko sounds unmistakably Russian to my ears, but Kawinsky a bit more like a Polish surname, a good chunk of them ends in -iński, -yński, -eński, Anyway, that's pure speculation and just me being a stickler.
I always find myself gravitating towards unlikable characters so it's no surprise that I liked Adam from the very beginning, what actually doesn't sit well with me is the Adam/Ronan romance. It starts somewhere in the third book with Adam saying that he's aware of Ronan's feelings - no flirting, no uncertainty, he just states it as a fact and there's very little to no build-up to that realization.
On Ronan's side... Well, I guess that at the end of the second book there's that line about Adam being his secret or something along those lines...
Fine, but during the entirety of the second book Adam was literally the last thing on Ronan's mind.
And then they kiss during that party and I'm supposed to believe that they're in love? Huh... No.
I won't lie, I'm sort of pissed off at this whole romantic sub-plot, because I genuinely love the series and liked those characters separately. My main problem is - Maggie Stiefvater is fully capable of writing good, slowly developing relationships and she proved that with Blue and Gansey but that whole Ronan/Adam thing feels just unsatisfying and rushed.
I hope that The Dreamer series will solve that in some way.
Fantastic video! So glad i found your channel!
Oh thank you!! That makes me so glad 🥰
listening to adam's flaws made me realize that i need to get some shame in my face lol...
I just finished the first book. I feel for Adam but because of his upbringing he is a character that needs to work on himself before getting into a relationship with blue.
I like Gansey for blue because he’s mentally stronger and stable while Blue seemed like a mom or sister worrying about Adam.
Too many subplots about Gansey x Blue and the ley line and so on. I honestly want to know more about Blue’s father
Hello and welcome to the TRC - fandom! ✨ Glad you found my channel, there's a lot of raven cycle content here if you end up liking the series. So exciting! Agree with you on your thoughts about Adam and Blue. He needs to work a lot of things out on his own before being ready for a relationship. Thank you for your comment and let me know when/if you read the dream thieves!
@@obviouslyqueer let's see if I like this second book better because the first one had a great world building but little interpersonal interactions between the main character and the rest which made it boring for me but things can change later on who knows
Unfortunately I didn't finish the saga because it was never entirely translated into Italian, only the first two. I loved the story and the events, the mystery, I discovered the ley lines and other things, loved it all.
But. The characters never gave me anything, I only continued because I liked the setting.
I hated Adam, I don't even know a word to describe it, every time he opened his mouth I felt like rolling my eyes, my expression was always be like 🙄😒😤, or "please stop talking. I understand the situation but COME OOON". Always complaining, despising(? What is the English word for a disgusted hatred?) the help of his own friends (they want to help you, they don't think they're better than you, come ooon). I hated Adam, I hate it to this day, every time he comes to my mind.
Fortunately a publishing house has taken over the saga and is about to translate and publish the entire saga. I will buy it and try it again.
Anyway, besides my hatred for Adam, I remember that I found some parts a bit confusing, some parts funny, so yeah, this is my unwanted opinion.
I hope my English is understandable, although I understand it well, my writing and my speaking are leaking.
Just reread the cycle for the upteenth time. And every time I tell people about why I love the books, one of the reasons I say is that there are characters in there that I dislike. That are not villains. Because I (too) dislike Adam. Or disagree with him. Either way I probably wouldn’t get along with him in reality. But I don’t think he‘s a bad character. On the contrary. It makes the story even better. Because who needs that picture-perfect kind of character bs. That’s not real at all.
Yeah exactly! I love Adam though, but as a character. But/because he's so flawed. He has real, not cute, personality-traits and therefore goes through real, uncharming struggles and growth. That's one of my favorite things with the books too!
Katya--you HAVE to read The Idiot by Elif Batuman. I feel like you would find it very interesting and funny.
Ooookey! Thank you so much for the tip! 🙌💕 I'll check in out!
I originally came here to gain insight into what makes these books appealing to you, but my feelings haven't changed: I still don’t enjoy them. I struggle to see the positive aspects you’ve highlighted. It’s important to me to express that I believe differing opinions should be respected and valued in discussions like this. After all, everyone's perspective is shaped by their individual experiences, and it's perfectly acceptable to have contrasting views. For some of us one star was what these book deserve, why is so hard for you to accepted, why you all feel so offended..
Hellllooooo I am only after finding your channel today but I love this videooo and also we have the same Aglionby Sweater💙
Thank you so much! ❤️ I love that sweater 😭
I had mixed feelings on the books( I read the first two ), I loved the characters and I do feel like they developed in terms of the relationships to the others a bit in the first book ( which was interesting) but not adequately in the second book for a character piece. I feel like the first books plot was complicated but it ultimately wrapped it the characters motives into a main goal for the reader to share, in the second book i was just confused ,I understood the plot sure but ,things were just happening that didn't add or inhibit the characters goals ,just slowed them and the plot down , like Kavinskey capturing Ronans brother (which is kinda out of character) and then jumping off a building for just no one to feel that sad about him dying? Honestly I feel like if a different writer was given the same characters ( shout out to Gansey my ultimate kin) and the blurb they could write a much better book. The characters and scenarios were not suited to the stagnant character piece the book was( compared to say normal people as an example for good character delving scenarios). Ultimately i would say it was marketed incorrectly and the fantasy element was trivial in adding anything to the story , the most interesting bits were descriptions of the setting and the internal dialogue of the characters.Anyway that was very rambley but i appreciate your perspective as someone who really enjoyed the series:)
Thank you for your comment! Obviously I disagree haha, the second book is my favorite and I find it very necessary and forward moving. It's Ronan's book so for the other character it kind of stops but Ronan it's so necessary for his plot and goals. If you haven't watch it I recommend my video "Is the dream thieves the best book ever written" haha. But i agree with you that the magics isn't the books strongest piece! The characters is, but I think Maggie's the only one that could have written them this well. But again thank you for your comment and thoughts!