I so enjoyed this exchange of 2 great intellects. PLEASE keep up your excellent channel Nate. There are many of us in the hinterlands who only have access to what you are bringing to us through your work! Sure can't get it on "TV". Take the kudos Douglas bestowed at the end of this exchange--with your endearing humility--and please know you are succeeding one by one, and hopefully soon virally, in expanding the knowledge of many who are hungry for this level of conversation!
Two things come to mind after listening to this great dialogue: 1. I would love to hear Nate bring on someone from the Mondragon region of Spain to talk about cooperatives. 2. Partnering style social dance is a great way to create local embodied community.💃🕺
Criminally Underrated. Keep going Nate! Love this podcast, every person you bring out opens my mind and expands my worldview. As a 22 year old student with high ambitions, Im overcome with boundless sources of low level social media posts that seem to just make me dumber. Get rich quick schemes, directionless motivation posts about supercars, luxury lifestyles, women. And this podcast always brings me back down to earth and on to whats actually meaningful and important to me in life. Thank you for your work!
Nate, he's right. "When 8 families control most of the worlds wealth, there is some blame that can be assigned". Absolutely. When you look at the amount of perversion and corruption in the American political system specifically. Where they knowingly collaborate against the public interest (often in secret) - there is righteous blame, and even anger that can be utilized for real material change. This is just uncomfortable for the Professional Managerial Class to talk about or confront. Anyone with close friends in the poor/working class would never deny this fact. Nor the associated blame or responsibility of those behind the levers of power.
@@wailinburninfr … and I think maybe a professional and/or managerial ‘class’ of jobs aren’t the big moneymakers… it’s the c suite execs in big corporations and hedge fund / investors buying up homes and stuff like that. I think that’s what you meant though when you said “Professional Managerial” though. I appreciate what you had to say about corruption, etc. It is really hard to swallow how rigged the system is. Nate is wonderful at helping to expose the truth and prescribing excellent ideas to deal with it, such as his advice not on what to do, but how to be. ✌️
Correction. Gigi coefficient and inflation has distributed control from 1% to 0.001%. 3 orders of magnitude smaller = 100 American singular human persons (over 80% derived via 8 families).@@danielbtwd
The United States is an unfathomably evil empire, with tentacles in every single country across the globe. The American dream and its associated elevated standard of living is built upon global domination, regardless of the American people being completely ignorant of the empire's endless atrocities.
Great discussion! I'm totally aligned with the Rushkoff's statement: "commons-based resource stewardship on a local level". As an economist, I have been doing local regional development along the lines of my friend, Michael Shuman, and the Business Alliance for Local Living Economies. Mostly in Southern Oregon (Ashland and its Rogue Valley region).
Torrey. I hope you get a chance to look at this: globalcarbonreward.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/GCR-Thesis-Sylvan-Lutz-PKU-Final.pdf It’s a way forward to your vision. Takes a lot of consideration
Disgust is an important emotion and viscerally physical. Nate asks the same question throughout this episode and I do think it's important: How do people detach from modern addictions such as social media? The answer is disgust- when you consume too much of something or consume a poison, disgust pushes you to purge it or stop. Towards detox and healing. People who are traumatized often don't feel disgust, because it's suppressed. We can be fooled to treat the feeling as the problem rather than communication to change our actions and values. In essence, we only know "too much" if we know disgust. Then we have the chance to experience something new. We learn great insight by being with and actively experiencing our feelings rather than ignoring them. Spiritual guides train people to create little windows of space with practices like pausing and noticing whenever you are reminded of it. You need to give people those little pauses so they have the chance to notice what they actually feel. This can grow bigger until they feel disgust, urgency, or other physical sensations that will make them get up and go outside.
When I've had enough to eat, an internal on/off switch goes to the off position, and the idea of food becomes repulsive. It's always puzzled me that so few other people have this on/off switch, or maybe that theirs is stuck in the on position.
@@robinschaufler444 The on/off switch is broken in most people. It is the essence of addiction. I have dated a few women that had a broken eating switch. They were offended if I offered them delicious food. They would have a crisis and ate 2 pounds of cookie dough. Their disgust was cross-wired in their head. What we need is school to teach self care and compassion for self and others. I think we could get about 1% maybe up to 5% of the public to buy into this The corporate class would call the place a communist plot to destroy the economy. Until each of us can leave to love ourselves, it will be hard to love our neighbor and the planet.
I was a bit down in the dumps about the future, but your conversation today really helped me see my own personal course out of this, and I'm a lot more hopeful now. I too have a lot of stuff in storage to purge.
I had to listen to this one all over again when it finished. It's everything I need to hear. Community support is our way through this. That's why I'd like to see Joseph Lofthouse on this show. He wrote landrace gardening, and he might not be the best orator, but he is doing the work of community construction and crop resilience in a integrated way. The other person who I think might bring some valuable ideas to the table is Sandor Katz. He mostly writes about Fermentation in a practical way, but when douglas Rushkoff talked about the ground, I couldn't help but think about the book Fermentation as a Metaphor. Plants, animals, and microbes are a hell of a lot smarter than us, and we need to listen. I feel like these two authors can help us understand our integrated natures.
I enjoy very much your show and the information that your podcast brings with every guest. It's so interesting that I was surprised that it hasn't more views and subscribers, but it cleared out on this interview when you explained about the algorithm. I hope that this message goes further and this podcast grows. The world needs more of this. Thanks.
Prioritizing between day to day needs and addressing the future is tough. I'm with you there, Nate. But in fact, you are building community, and building community builders with your show. You bring out the best in your guests. I've heard several interviews of Douglas lately, and yours brought out the best in him. Thank you, Douglas, for coming down hard on Blockchain and its seduction of well-intentioned people. Douglas, please don't sign off and disappear!
I wish my former principal could hear this. I was pushed out of teaching for not pushing the "American way" of putting money, good job, status before everything else. I was much more concerned about my students becoming people of integrity than great mathematicians. School as a system is hopelessly messed up.
Epic conversation, INSPIRING on many levels. Think Global, act Local. Rushkoff is brilliant and this was directed so well Nate. Deep bow of GRATITUDE. Sharing with all my friends.
Good energy in this one! I think many realize that living the change is crucial, to be on the ground. Abandoning systems thinking after gleaning vital information seems a bit drastic though. I notice two mechanisms for reducing energy use are mentioned. Reduce energy use because of price and availability, or reduce energy use willingly. The group of people today willingly reducing energy use (could I call it ecological footprint?) is clearly way smaller than those being capped by income. Your discussion on how to change the mindset of the majority, the global Weltanschauung, is important. Might be the most important topic in human history. The increasing need for urgency is why I think we should not abandon systems thinking (edit: after "systems enlightenment"). Bottom up is not fast enough, and the lifestyle Rushkoff lives is still not sustainable. His efforts must be backed by systemic change. The goal of the entire world system must change from growth to sustainability (and human wellbeing). Banning and rationing must be implemented until the majority change mindset. The minority wouldn't notice banning and rationing in their consumption habits because they presumably already live within planetary limits and a 1.5 carbon budget.
How do I like this 10 gazillion times? I’m qvelling over this engaging bro bonding conversation. Here’s how you do it, guys. Excellent content and way to relate and communicate.
This one puts Nate into a higher level of cultural recognition versus his typical interviews with academic colleagues and other none-too-well-known folks.
Could we be watching the beginning phase of regrowth going mainstream? I'm seeing an explosion of homesteading youtube channels... it's going to be cool to go off-grid and eschew technology, working minimally, growing food. It's fascinating to watch
Agreed. Nate spends too much time in the "Academic/Professional/Managerial Class" social spaces. I think the fact that Douglas grew up poor, and in a poor neighborhood shows through and contrasts with Nate (Finance Guy) very well.
This episode made me read the book "survival of the rich", in rhe middle of it ahd thankful for refuting Pinker and alike. I'll have to listen to this one again.
Wow. Another excellent episode! I’m only at 9+ minutes and I love the dialog already. I think the way Nate states his purpose here seems more succinct and powerful to me than what’s currently on the website.
Masterpiece! Like listening to two brilliant violist give a concert. Lots of food for thought. One thought, from Douglas' place for hope near the end of interview. Maybe if we fix the gender war we can handle the rest. Its really great that young girls can support each other so much and thrive today. But they will only hold up half the sky in the future. Our young boys didnt build any patriarchy nor do they benefit from any privilege today as shown by the state they are in. So maybe the young girls can enlarge their circle of empathy. If one half is hurting the other half cant really be healthy long term. Perhaps thats the lesson we can take from discrimination in the past and end it in the present.
It would be wonderful to have a transcript of this. Please, Please!! Kudos for getting Rushkoff! Thinking styles and expression are pretty different between the two of you, but hearing that sorted out was great.
This podcast truly was thought provoking - especially to want to help Nate simplify his storage shed situation greatly with a downsize/cull/sell-off/donate drive - or in Douglas's spirit of approaching things, to encourage Nate to sort it out. Maybe he has by now...
Dad's transistor radio? Nate, when you say we might go back to 70s consumption, does that mean like each home with one tv and a car with no electronics? In other talks you've said society would go back to 18th century technology (meaning Western Europe and American tech) I would be interested to see a talk discussing technical outcomes are possible
This is great, as always, I do have one point though where there is a different perspective relating to blockchain/web3 technologies. Distributed Autonomous Organizations (DAO's) are a very useful tool in deconstructing hierarchies or building without them.
The depth, wisdom and sense-making of your presentations stands in stark contrast to the information propagated on mainstream media. I sincerely thank you for that. The simple fact that American people WILL NOT hear it is the source of my deep consternation. As corny as it may sound, I perceive your efforts to be "chicken soup for the soul". A taste of reality that goes far beyond what is propagated across traditional sources, generated by profit-driven, exploitative entities. It seems to me that blind greed - not humanist sense-making - is our society's lethal "Achilles heel".
The Intentions built into the "13th Century" Monetary System/Operating System, its goals act like a Giant Net which have Captured the Whole Civilization into a certain kind of Money Game. By designing and implementing new systems of exchange i.e. Regional Currencies, Crypto, Producer Credits, Gifting etc. we can broaden the variety of options for exchanging, which will result in exit strategies from the Monopoly game were currently ensnared in.We have to be fully convinced of the non viability of current trajectory To Take Action onto a New Path. Look up what Will Ruddick is doing, Bernard Litaer's strategies, Thom Greco, Ellen Brown, Joshua Farley, Paul Grignon.
The best grant we ever received was from the W.K.Kellogg Foundation. We received $10,000 in 2004 and it is still working in our weaving studio in rural Minnesota. I like Rushkoff's, just do it.
Agree. The solutions are at the individual/family level! I call it the Yeoman Singularity. A person who exercises his/her agency to create a regenerative household exchanging with other Yeoman households!
It is at the harem level. Beginning of ancient rome, men could put down their subjects - wives and slaves. Controlled the population. End of rome was womens rights, too much deforestation for cooking/heating for old ladies, then collapse. Beginning of democracy only men could vote, now most voters are women. Too much deforestation/oil drilling again.
A Yeoman is a person who owns their land and lives from its production. Amish have not embraced permaculture, regenerative ag, ..... many of the innovations of late.
This interview is an excellent example to point to the elephant in the room. Nate Hagens powerful, scientific left sided, masculine mind meets Douglas Rushkoff's beautiful, creative, right sided feminine mind. A harmonizing, balanced symphony. But in reality this ratio 70-30 favour of masculine at and this will include many women. It's the boys and their toys who drive this train. Normally we always go playing our war games to balance this ratio, but now the toys got too big. When the feminine side had the upper hand, they created the 50th and 6oth. We males made sure, that is not going to happen any more in the 70th. The centre of Europe is becoming an army of Genghis Khan's, and we have to tell them to get in touch with their feminine side. The power of man guided by the vision of female creates a natural equilibrium. We boys have to let go of our toys and listen to mother earth. I myself having teething problems to balance my thoughts and access that feminine mind. As a by-product of the 60th, I've been well-educated in the arts of Genghis Khan. It’s just that those trades are now becoming counterproductive. The empowering of the feminine is fundamental for the creation of a peaceful society.
A lot of this strikes me as quite naïve. I don't think the kumbaya world actually works given that we are deeply competitive and deeply inequal as a species. I think it is more likely that the web3 people trying to co-engineer incentive structures with an emerging cultural shift is a much more realistic approach to living together with less through-put. Also a strong preference for the approach in Hanzi Freinacht's political metamodernism books. Building institutions that are geared towards helping people develop more maturity and sophistication.
@@andybaldman from what I remember of writing this, I'm mostly pushing back on the vibe that "love will just bring us together if we believe enough" (strawman, but spiritual bypass is a thing). Good luck to us though. Let's try and wriggle out of this mess!
Many of us in this day and age live better than the aristocracy did two hundred years ago. People generally don't know the difference between want and need.
42:09: "A lot of these tech bros and these wealthy Silicon Valley elites ... view the world from and ecology lens and not an E'cology lens" Is the accent on the E in the 2nd "'ecology" supposed to signify some sort of upspoken distinction? Also, it's a curious use of "and" where "but not" might be more appropriate.
Interesting this far, I am 31:30 in and I need to share a thought I am trying, and have been trying to wrestle with. I don't want to sound as if I am presenting anything new because I am only trying to wrestle with this topic. Human sensory systems receive information from the environment, we know that but that information is not neutral, and cannot be because the pulse within our psychology and physiology places us in motion to preserve ourselves, we have a functional self centeredness which demands we act to stay alive. Therefore we are looking for key things that work and keep us thriving. Lets say your a hunter gatherer and your with your tribe, looking for nuts, berries, fish, or something to feed yourself and your group, once you have found the food, consumed it, shared it, your sensory systems calm, until the pulse rises and your set into motion again. The primitive pulse toward tribalism, at least to me, is based on a fear of ceasing to exist; loss of access to what keep us and our group alive. I sometimes wonder if the human condition can reach a point where the fear of scarcity and thereby violence transitions into a pulse for courage toward healthy vulnerability and shared abundance? Would it take systems collapse? Losing the psychological reinforcers and actoral reinforcers coming from the political arena, markets. What would happen if our "way of life" fell from beneath our feet. Human beings have adaptive systems, we can adjust to alternative conditions to survive but until enough of us reach that point where we recognise the need to change, to adapt, or adjust to some new mode of operation / way of communicating, acting, and working, what do we do? or how do we interact during the transitionary phase that is to come? Not everyone has a perception that could be considered viable, some may hold tight to market capitalism, consumerism, racism, ideology etc. that to them are important but to others are antithetical. Another thing I think about is we need to re-review the totality of human knowledge, and categorise its significance, in other words, what do we know as significant to produce enough without exploiting or manipulating. What knowledge do we use, what parameters do we set, what measures do we use, what tools are safe, what energy or what are our limits of use, and what synergy is safe and how long can we use it for before we have to reduce our variety again. Lets say we transitioned away from hydrocarbons, inevitably we would have to reduce, minimize the kinds of technology we produce, with a focus on technology that is simple, uses minimal energy but does whatever it is designed to do, for example, instead if visiting Grandma every week, we visit every 3 months using a magnetically propelled train system that takes us to the area she lives, and maybe we would have to walk say 1 hour to her place, stay there for 3 months before being able to travel back again. I don't know, but I'm thinking on it. We would have to rewrite our whole way of thinking, perceiving and interacting with all the other systems. Does efficiency mean more and better? Or does efficiency mean simplifying, minimizing and making smart use. Can we transition, and reconstruct our way of life without people losing there sense or hold on reality? Because when transition becomes a requirement through force of circumstances, i.e climate breakdown, societal collapse, and psychological fallout of what we think and know. What will become of us? We know for sure that collapse of some measure is coming. That the current energy use is not sustainable. That the system produces inequality and in n out group conflict. What will become of us when we realise that we did not have to live this way at all, and alternatives were right there all along, and have been thought about, and some attempt at implementation. How will we feel when it dawns on us that our childhood, and our children's experience of the world did not have to be so polarized, so divided, so fraught with uncertainty, blame, anger, prejudice, violence, threat of homelessness. I wonder just how many of us will be outraged, and wise enough to ensure we don't attack one another, shoot one another, stab one another, or blow each other up.
At the end of WWII, the US government made Marketing expenses 'tax deductible' for businesses in order to spur economic growth. That was understandable at that time in light of having just emerged from the Great Depression by means of the war effort which had ceased. But has the deductibility of marketing expenses been removed from corporate tax law? If not, doing so could have at least two benefits: reduction of frivolous consumption, and reduction of the barrage of advertisements besetting the public.
Happiness pales in comparison to Contentment. Without Sadness, Happiness is meaningless. You can only attain Contentment by not avoiding Sadness and avoid pursuing Happiness. The breakthrough is spending most of your time in the now. We must learn from the Past, plan for tomorrow, everything flows from now. I use San Chin moving meditation and other techniques such as Archery practice and playing Music to maintain Contentment. I have been content in the World of Billionaires and the Poor. The Way is different for all, you can't achieve it by pursuit. It came to Elon Musk and Gandhi, they live in the now. I shall teach San Chin moving breathing Technique this Winter. I didn't plan to do this. I'm here, this is what I do now. I am Content.
Love this! Perhaps if/as individuals heal themselves of their own traumas (part of which are the traumas inflicted by the system we're in) we'll create that space for Beingness which opens then into creativity. If we're trapped in trauma responses, as I know only too well, our creative capacity shuts down. I lost mine for years, only regaining it now after years of trauma work--much of it included learning to be present, holding space for "what is." These matters are intertwined for sure, your comment really sparked something for me. As I continue healing/being I want to share and invite others to explore their own capacity to do so. Maybe there's a creative way to do that... Hmmmm. 😊❤️
"We'll blame the Jews." Yes, and Democrats will blame Republicans, Republicans will blame Democrats, some will blame the rich, others will blame communists, gun owners will blame sheople, blah, blah, blah. I wish I could be more optimistic about people joining together in common cause for good.
I recall interviews from 2-3 years ago where Yanis Varoufakis said he read it several times and found it lacking or unpersuasive. So that’s at least one off the top of my head.
I get the impression that we should launch all world leaders into space, so they can obtain the world view necessary to change our course to something sustainable, or at least to stop petty wars and learn to work together. Agree?
The deep fundamental reality is that we are one people living on one small precariously-balanced planet floating amidst, and surrounded by, a Cosmos that doesn't care. EVERTYTHING else is a man-made distraction.
Love this! Love hearing intelligent people that are aware of reality and being optimistic about it, &love people more than things, and are banking on communities and finding positives in the face of change, instead of reveling in fear nd resentment, are choosing life and laughter and buckling down, simplifying life, saving energy vs.exploiting it. I just loved this entire vibe /attitude, I believe is exactly what will get us through, and I’m totally down with this. It put a big smile on my face nd I think more “everyday, common ppl will get this!☮️❤️🌎☀️💪🙏☝️😄👍🤝🐓🌹🍎⚾️⛸🚴🏻♀️🧗🏻♂️🎹💟☯️🌳🕊🐑🦋🐶👨👩👧👦🥰
How do we both go slow and fast? Reduce energy consumption and build out solar? We need a restorative economy with incentives. Not just a 13th century consumption economy. Research Global Carbon Reward
Yes! Climate refugees...and watching how the little birds don't make it through flood, then drought, then migratory flight, falling from the air when their metabolism finally fails. It is a progression.
1:01:32 _The algorithms are so freakin' powerful in the current world._ Uuh, yeah. It's becoming obvious that the doubling-down of entrenched elites on technology is the rational strategy. Especially militarily, Russia is openly articulating the notion of their superior military technology as the guarantor of state sovereignty. Elegance and frugality are superior choices in many situations but once the game reduces a few times these appropriate solutions can't compete with energy-guzzling brute-force tech. Nullifying this advantage is an area to give serious thought to, as there seem to be approximately zero ways to do that.
Bitcoin? Hardly. Think commodities during ecological and civil collapse, especially the agricultural kind. Maybe I watched Soylent Green once too often over the decades, or have seen too much during my disaster deployments down south, but I think you need to think much more basic when you plan the rest of your life.
OR we don't blame...we get way back and see the system...and then go in to be alive in it, consuming the surplus energy waste that is choking the system.
Very revealing that the comment I made with the 2nd most likes out of all the comments about truth in wealth inequality and power - did not get a "like" or "favorite" (or whatever) from this channel. Too "controversial" or revealing to draw attention too?
HOPE:hopium . Mental escapism , not facing the horrific reality looming . As much as worker owner business sounds good most normal people don’t have the endless greed, endless drive and cutthroat mindset AND the Capital to ride out 3 yrs not making a profit. Dream on .
This is a wonderful case study to demonstrate the validity of Dr. Ajit Varki's Mind Over Reality Transition (MORT) theory. How is it possible that two intelligent aware people can discuss in depth how best to respond to overshoot and not even mention the one thing that might make the future less bad: population reduction policies? It's not possible, unless our species evolved to deny unpleasant realities, as explained by MORT.
@@Frank_Cosmo Genocide, Democide, Sterilization, Eugenics? We've done all of that. It's not that some nefarious architecture is the obstacle to our remembrance of what it means to be human. The meaning is neither elusive nor fugitive, and it certainly won't be wrung from the circumstances.
@@Frank_Cosmo There are dozens of effective population reduction policies that citizens could vote for however support for any of them will first require citizens to understand that the implications of not supporting them are FAR worse than any discomfort the policies may initially cause.
@@Frank_Cosmo I don't know what Dr. Varki thinks on this matter but I suspect high intelligence cannot exist without denial of unpleasant realities because otherwise we might make rational decisions that override MPP which is not permitted by the laws that govern life. So MPP does not override MORT, rather high intelligence cannot exist without MORT because of MPP.
@@Frank_Cosmo Lots of big stuff to comment on here so I'll try to do it in chunks. 1) First I should make it clear that Dr. Varki does not like me claiming that MORT enabled "high intelligence". He is very specific that MORT enabled an "extended theory of mind". I, being an electrical engineer, think "high intelligence" is a much clearer description of what happened when behaviorally modern humans exploded on the scene 1-200,000 years ago. MORT enabled a more powerful CPU which was required for an extended theory of mind (aka social cooperation abilities), AND a sophisticated hierarchical symbolic language, AND better reasoning/logic skills, AND more memory, etc. etc.
2) I think you may misunderstand the evolutionary dance between intelligence and denial. MORT says that i) an extended theory of mind on its own is maladaptive because awareness of mortality causes depression; and ii) that denial of mortality on its own is maladaptive because it causes excessive risk taking; and iii) however when fortuitously combined via an improbable double mutation that apparently happened only once on this planet creates an extended theory of mind that denies mortality (and as a side effect all other unpleasant realities since this is the easiest way for evolution to implement denial of mortality) and we end up with a super clever religious social ape capable of dominating all other species and capturing the majority of resources available on the planet, while aggressively denying that it is in a severe state of overshoot.
3) "Again, it seems that your unpleasant reality is that homo sapiens is simply a physical system". There is no doubt we are a physical system, and the implications can indeed be unpleasant to contemplate. I think the question you may have in mind is why do I waste so much time pushing for awareness of MORT? It's a good question. The majority of people who attain a deep understanding of our overshoot predicament conclude that it was inevitable and that genetic human behavior prevents any positive change in our trajectory and so they simply try to enjoy what good days remain.
There are a few people, like for example Nate Hagens, Tom Murphy, David Korowicz, and Richard Heinberg, that are still working hard to raise awareness of our predicament in the hope that we change our trajectory to avoid the worst and/or create a good future. I belong to this group because (I think) I have a deep understanding of how rare high intelligence on a planet with abundant fossil energy and many other rare and necessary conditions for science and technology to flourish is in the universe, and therefore how tragic it is that we are not using our unique and rare intelligence to avoid racing off a cliff.
The reason I push MORT is that I think understanding it is central to any hope we might have. Simply pushing more overshoot education has not worked and will not work. We must focus on the genetic reason that 99.9% of people aggressively deny overshoot regardless of how much information we push at them.
MORT is the keystone lock that must first be picked. I'm not saying with certainty that overcoming genetic denial is possible. I am saying with certainty that nothing else will work, and therefore the few aware people that are still fighting for a better future should focus on MORT.
With all due respect, and it's a lot, both of you miss what is necessary at this point. The only hope is rationing in all advanced nations. The super-rich get more but not that much more. The rich and middle class get in the middle and the working poor get the least, but still more than subsistence. So, what you need to work toward is the public and the rich, especially, accepting this is the reality, if we want to have any chance to avoid extinction by 2099. The poor in poor nations are not the problem, but may someday be rationed also.
I so enjoyed this exchange of 2 great intellects. PLEASE keep up your excellent channel Nate. There are many of us in the hinterlands who only have access to what you are bringing to us through your work! Sure can't get it on "TV". Take the kudos Douglas bestowed at the end of this exchange--with your endearing humility--and please know you are succeeding one by one, and hopefully soon virally, in expanding the knowledge of many who are hungry for this level of conversation!
I believe this episode will be a turning point for me personally. Thank you Nate for creating this series.
Two things come to mind after listening to this great dialogue:
1. I would love to hear Nate bring on someone from the Mondragon region of Spain to talk about cooperatives.
2. Partnering style social dance is a great way to create local embodied community.💃🕺
Criminally Underrated. Keep going Nate! Love this podcast, every person you bring out opens my mind and expands my worldview. As a 22 year old student with high ambitions, Im overcome with boundless sources of low level social media posts that seem to just make me dumber. Get rich quick schemes, directionless motivation posts about supercars, luxury lifestyles, women. And this podcast always brings me back down to earth and on to whats actually meaningful and important to me in life. Thank you for your work!
Nate, he's right. "When 8 families control most of the worlds wealth, there is some blame that can be assigned". Absolutely. When you look at the amount of perversion and corruption in the American political system specifically. Where they knowingly collaborate against the public interest (often in secret) - there is righteous blame, and even anger that can be utilized for real material change. This is just uncomfortable for the Professional Managerial Class to talk about or confront.
Anyone with close friends in the poor/working class would never deny this fact. Nor the associated blame or responsibility of those behind the levers of power.
@@wailinburninfr … and I think maybe a professional and/or managerial ‘class’ of jobs aren’t the big moneymakers… it’s the c suite execs in big corporations and hedge fund / investors buying up homes and stuff like that. I think that’s what you meant though when you said “Professional Managerial” though. I appreciate what you had to say about corruption, etc. It is really hard to swallow how rigged the system is. Nate is wonderful at helping to expose the truth and prescribing excellent ideas to deal with it, such as his advice not on what to do, but how to be. ✌️
80 families
1 percent of 6 billion. 60 million.
Correction. Gigi coefficient and inflation has distributed control from 1% to 0.001%. 3 orders of magnitude smaller = 100 American singular human persons (over 80% derived via 8 families).@@danielbtwd
The United States is an unfathomably evil empire, with tentacles in every single country across the globe. The American dream and its associated elevated standard of living is built upon global domination, regardless of the American people being completely ignorant of the empire's endless atrocities.
I loved this so much-mind, heart and soul. Thank you both. I’ve found my tribe!
Great discussion! I'm totally aligned with the Rushkoff's statement: "commons-based resource stewardship on a local level". As an economist, I have been doing local regional development along the lines of my friend, Michael Shuman, and the Business Alliance for Local Living Economies. Mostly in Southern Oregon (Ashland and its Rogue Valley region).
Torrey. I hope you get a chance to look at this:
globalcarbonreward.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/GCR-Thesis-Sylvan-Lutz-PKU-Final.pdf
It’s a way forward to your vision. Takes a lot of consideration
Thank you for your work.
Disgust is an important emotion and viscerally physical. Nate asks the same question throughout this episode and I do think it's important: How do people detach from modern addictions such as social media? The answer is disgust- when you consume too much of something or consume a poison, disgust pushes you to purge it or stop. Towards detox and healing. People who are traumatized often don't feel disgust, because it's suppressed. We can be fooled to treat the feeling as the problem rather than communication to change our actions and values. In essence, we only know "too much" if we know disgust. Then we have the chance to experience something new. We learn great insight by being with and actively experiencing our feelings rather than ignoring them. Spiritual guides train people to create little windows of space with practices like pausing and noticing whenever you are reminded of it. You need to give people those little pauses so they have the chance to notice what they actually feel. This can grow bigger until they feel disgust, urgency, or other physical sensations that will make them get up and go outside.
reminds me of byung chul han's the expulsion of the other. he speaks of the loss of disgust at some point, if i remember correctly. highly recommend
When I've had enough to eat, an internal on/off switch goes to the off position, and the idea of food becomes repulsive. It's always puzzled me that so few other people have this on/off switch, or maybe that theirs is stuck in the on position.
@@robinschaufler444
The on/off switch is broken in most people. It is the essence of addiction.
I have dated a few women that had a broken eating switch.
They were offended if I offered them delicious food. They would have a crisis and ate 2 pounds of cookie dough.
Their disgust was cross-wired in their head.
What we need is school to teach self care and compassion for self and others.
I think we could get about 1% maybe up to 5% of the public to buy into this
The corporate class would call the place a communist plot to destroy the economy.
Until each of us can leave to love ourselves, it will be hard to love our neighbor and the planet.
This episode absolutely made my day. Thank you both!
Nate, please don’t stop doing what your doing.
This conversation was just FABULOUS!!! ❤❤❤
I was a bit down in the dumps about the future, but your conversation today really helped me see my own personal course out of this, and I'm a lot more hopeful now.
I too have a lot of stuff in storage to purge.
I had to listen to this one all over again when it finished. It's everything I need to hear.
Community support is our way through this. That's why I'd like to see Joseph Lofthouse on this show. He wrote landrace gardening, and he might not be the best orator, but he is doing the work of community construction and crop resilience in a integrated way.
The other person who I think might bring some valuable ideas to the table is Sandor Katz. He mostly writes about Fermentation in a practical way, but when douglas Rushkoff talked about the ground, I couldn't help but think about the book Fermentation as a Metaphor.
Plants, animals, and microbes are a hell of a lot smarter than us, and we need to listen. I feel like these two authors can help us understand our integrated natures.
Thank you Nate. Thank you Douglas. Much appreciated.
Best resonance to date...and all the interviews resonate.
I enjoy very much your show and the information that your podcast brings with every guest.
It's so interesting that I was surprised that it hasn't more views and subscribers, but it cleared out on this interview when you explained about the algorithm.
I hope that this message goes further and this podcast grows. The world needs more of this. Thanks.
Prioritizing between day to day needs and addressing the future is tough. I'm with you there, Nate. But in fact, you are building community, and building community builders with your show. You bring out the best in your guests. I've heard several interviews of Douglas lately, and yours brought out the best in him. Thank you, Douglas, for coming down hard on Blockchain and its seduction of well-intentioned people. Douglas, please don't sign off and disappear!
I wish my former principal could hear this. I was pushed out of teaching for not pushing the "American way" of putting money, good job, status before everything else. I was much more concerned about my students becoming people of integrity than great mathematicians. School as a system is hopelessly messed up.
Much sympathy to you! What are you doing now? We need more educators like you.
Epic conversation, INSPIRING on many levels. Think Global, act Local. Rushkoff is brilliant and this was directed so well Nate. Deep bow of GRATITUDE. Sharing with all my friends.
Good energy in this one! I think many realize that living the change is crucial, to be on the ground. Abandoning systems thinking after gleaning vital information seems a bit drastic though.
I notice two mechanisms for reducing energy use are mentioned. Reduce energy use because of price and availability, or reduce energy use willingly. The group of people today willingly reducing energy use (could I call it ecological footprint?) is clearly way smaller than those being capped by income. Your discussion on how to change the mindset of the majority, the global Weltanschauung, is important. Might be the most important topic in human history.
The increasing need for urgency is why I think we should not abandon systems thinking (edit: after "systems enlightenment"). Bottom up is not fast enough, and the lifestyle Rushkoff lives is still not sustainable. His efforts must be backed by systemic change.
The goal of the entire world system must change from growth to sustainability (and human wellbeing). Banning and rationing must be implemented until the majority change mindset. The minority wouldn't notice banning and rationing in their consumption habits because they presumably already live within planetary limits and a 1.5 carbon budget.
I enjoy my great simplification Thursdays! Thanks Nate!
I am 58 years old and am listening again because I need/want to reabsorb
@@TennesseeJed Yep 👍
I just loved this exchange. That's why inteligent people exist:to stimulate team human neurons. Thanks.
Very refreshing and inspirational Podcast!
Really enjoyed this!!
So good. Thank you both.
42:37 Nothing like real talk on energy. This is mindblowing.
Thank you very much again for yet another informative podcast.
How do I like this 10 gazillion times? I’m qvelling over this engaging bro bonding conversation. Here’s how you do it, guys. Excellent content and way to relate and communicate.
Nate, you’re my hero too 👍🙏
This one puts Nate into a higher level of cultural recognition versus his typical interviews with academic colleagues and other none-too-well-known folks.
Could we be watching the beginning phase of regrowth going mainstream? I'm seeing an explosion of homesteading youtube channels... it's going to be cool to go off-grid and eschew technology, working minimally, growing food. It's fascinating to watch
*degrowth
Agreed. Nate spends too much time in the "Academic/Professional/Managerial Class" social spaces. I think the fact that Douglas grew up poor, and in a poor neighborhood shows through and contrasts with Nate (Finance Guy) very well.
This episode made me read the book "survival of the rich", in rhe middle of it ahd thankful for refuting Pinker and alike. I'll have to listen to this one again.
Just discovered your channel and am now a subscriber. I would love to see economic ecologist Dr. William Rees on here at some point.
Wow. Another excellent episode! I’m only at 9+ minutes and I love the dialog already. I think the way Nate states his purpose here seems more succinct and powerful to me than what’s currently on the website.
Masterpiece! Like listening to two brilliant violist give a concert. Lots of food for thought. One thought, from Douglas' place for hope near the end of interview. Maybe if we fix the gender war we can handle the rest. Its really great that young girls can support each other so much and thrive today. But they will only hold up half the sky in the future. Our young boys didnt build any patriarchy nor do they benefit from any privilege today as shown by the state they are in. So maybe the young girls can enlarge their circle of empathy. If one half is hurting the other half cant really be healthy long term. Perhaps thats the lesson we can take from discrimination in the past and end it in the present.
This is amazing!
It would be wonderful to have a transcript of this. Please, Please!!
Kudos for getting Rushkoff! Thinking styles and expression are pretty different between the two of you, but hearing that sorted out was great.
Transcripts of all episodes are linked in description (above) or in thegreatsimplification.com website
that was a great one, thanks :)
going to leave a mark for sure
Be where you are 💛
This podcast truly was thought provoking - especially to want to help Nate simplify his storage shed situation greatly with a downsize/cull/sell-off/donate drive - or in Douglas's spirit of approaching things, to encourage Nate to sort it out. Maybe he has by now...
Awesome 😎👍 brilliant 👌
Great show. Any chance you could get vaclav smil on an episode?
bitcoin being a funeral pyre is some extremely poignant imagery. great convo as always!
Dad's transistor radio? Nate, when you say we might go back to 70s consumption, does that mean like each home with one tv and a car with no electronics? In other talks you've said society would go back to 18th century technology (meaning Western Europe and American tech) I would be interested to see a talk discussing technical outcomes are possible
This is great, as always, I do have one point though where there is a different perspective relating to blockchain/web3 technologies. Distributed Autonomous Organizations (DAO's) are a very useful tool in deconstructing hierarchies or building without them.
57.30..."it's not a tragedy, it's a black comedy"... I liked that
Perspective in seeing then integrating. I have been thinking about lemmings a lot lately. When he says sims it makes me laugh.
The depth, wisdom and sense-making of your presentations stands in stark contrast to the information propagated on mainstream media. I sincerely thank you for that. The simple fact that American people WILL NOT hear it is the source of my deep consternation. As corny as it may sound, I perceive your efforts to be "chicken soup for the soul". A taste of reality that goes far beyond what is propagated across traditional sources, generated by profit-driven, exploitative entities. It seems to me that blind greed - not humanist sense-making - is our society's lethal "Achilles heel".
🐸 I’m very disappointed not to find a charming emoji of a red toed little guy. 🫠
The Intentions built into the "13th Century" Monetary System/Operating System, its goals act like a Giant Net which have Captured the Whole Civilization into a certain kind of Money Game. By designing and implementing new systems of exchange i.e. Regional Currencies, Crypto, Producer Credits, Gifting etc. we can broaden the variety of options for exchanging, which will result in exit strategies from the Monopoly game were currently ensnared in.We have to be fully convinced of the non viability of current trajectory To Take Action onto a New Path. Look up what Will Ruddick is doing, Bernard Litaer's strategies, Thom Greco, Ellen Brown, Joshua Farley, Paul Grignon.
The best grant we ever received was from the W.K.Kellogg Foundation. We received $10,000 in 2004 and it is still working in our weaving studio in rural Minnesota. I like Rushkoff's, just do it.
Embodiment is what this reminds me of.
Agree. The solutions are at the individual/family level! I call it the Yeoman Singularity. A person who exercises his/her agency to create a regenerative household exchanging with other Yeoman households!
It is at the harem level.
Beginning of ancient rome, men could put down their subjects - wives and slaves. Controlled the population. End of rome was womens rights, too much deforestation for cooking/heating for old ladies, then collapse. Beginning of democracy only men could vote, now most voters are women. Too much deforestation/oil drilling again.
So, the Amish without religion?
@@christinearmington that’s a good model, in some regards.
Yeoman farmers in North America only existed at the behest of genocide. Probably not the type of example we want to emulate.
A Yeoman is a person who owns their land and lives from its production. Amish have not embraced permaculture, regenerative ag, ..... many of the innovations of late.
This interview is an excellent example to point to the elephant in the room. Nate Hagens powerful, scientific left sided, masculine mind meets Douglas Rushkoff's beautiful, creative, right sided feminine mind. A harmonizing, balanced symphony. But in reality this ratio 70-30 favour of masculine at and this will include many women. It's the boys and their toys who drive this train. Normally we always go playing our war games to balance this ratio, but now the toys got too big. When the feminine side had the upper hand, they created the 50th and 6oth. We males made sure, that is not going to happen any more in the 70th. The centre of Europe is becoming an army of Genghis Khan's, and we have to tell them to get in touch with their feminine side. The power of man guided by the vision of female creates a natural equilibrium. We boys have to let go of our toys and listen to mother earth. I myself having teething problems to balance my thoughts and access that feminine mind. As a by-product of the 60th, I've been well-educated in the arts of Genghis Khan. It’s just that those trades are now becoming counterproductive. The empowering of the feminine is fundamental for the creation of a peaceful society.
A lot of this strikes me as quite naïve. I don't think the kumbaya world actually works given that we are deeply competitive and deeply inequal as a species. I think it is more likely that the web3 people trying to co-engineer incentive structures with an emerging cultural shift is a much more realistic approach to living together with less through-put. Also a strong preference for the approach in Hanzi Freinacht's political metamodernism books. Building institutions that are geared towards helping people develop more maturity and sophistication.
And what’s wrong with that? Either way, we have to engineer our way out of this, the way we (and the web2 folks) engineered ourselves into it.
@@andybaldman from what I remember of writing this, I'm mostly pushing back on the vibe that "love will just bring us together if we believe enough" (strawman, but spiritual bypass is a thing).
Good luck to us though. Let's try and wriggle out of this mess!
Many of us in this day and age live better than the aristocracy did two hundred years ago. People generally don't know the difference between want and need.
42:09: "A lot of these tech bros and these wealthy Silicon Valley elites ... view the world from and ecology lens and not an E'cology lens"
Is the accent on the E in the 2nd "'ecology" supposed to signify some sort of upspoken distinction? Also, it's a curious use of "and" where "but not" might be more appropriate.
I meant to say technology not ecology lens, if I didnt
@@thegreatsimplification Thanka for clarifying.
Had me stumped too. I was thinking "Is 'e-cology' like 'electronic'-ology? I'm obviously out of the loop." Thanks for the clarification.
Interesting this far, I am 31:30 in and I need to share a thought I am trying, and have been trying to wrestle with. I don't want to sound as if I am presenting anything new because I am only trying to wrestle with this topic.
Human sensory systems receive information from the environment, we know that but that information is not neutral, and cannot be because the pulse within our psychology and physiology places us in motion to preserve ourselves, we have a functional self centeredness which demands we act to stay alive. Therefore we are looking for key things that work and keep us thriving. Lets say your a hunter gatherer and your with your tribe, looking for nuts, berries, fish, or something to feed yourself and your group, once you have found the food, consumed it, shared it, your sensory systems calm, until the pulse rises and your set into motion again. The primitive pulse toward tribalism, at least to me, is based on a fear of ceasing to exist; loss of access to what keep us and our group alive. I sometimes wonder if the human condition can reach a point where the fear of scarcity and thereby violence transitions into a pulse for courage toward healthy vulnerability and shared abundance?
Would it take systems collapse? Losing the psychological reinforcers and actoral reinforcers coming from the political arena, markets. What would happen if our "way of life" fell from beneath our feet. Human beings have adaptive systems, we can adjust to alternative conditions to survive but until enough of us reach that point where we recognise the need to change, to adapt, or adjust to some new mode of operation / way of communicating, acting, and working, what do we do? or how do we interact during the transitionary phase that is to come? Not everyone has a perception that could be considered viable, some may hold tight to market capitalism, consumerism, racism, ideology etc. that to them are important but to others are antithetical. Another thing I think about is we need to re-review the totality of human knowledge, and categorise its significance, in other words, what do we know as significant to produce enough without exploiting or manipulating. What knowledge do we use, what parameters do we set, what measures do we use, what tools are safe, what energy or what are our limits of use, and what synergy is safe and how long can we use it for before we have to reduce our variety again.
Lets say we transitioned away from hydrocarbons, inevitably we would have to reduce, minimize the kinds of technology we produce, with a focus on technology that is simple, uses minimal energy but does whatever it is designed to do, for example, instead if visiting Grandma every week, we visit every 3 months using a magnetically propelled train system that takes us to the area she lives, and maybe we would have to walk say 1 hour to her place, stay there for 3 months before being able to travel back again. I don't know, but I'm thinking on it. We would have to rewrite our whole way of thinking, perceiving and interacting with all the other systems. Does efficiency mean more and better? Or does efficiency mean simplifying, minimizing and making smart use. Can we transition, and reconstruct our way of life without people losing there sense or hold on reality? Because when transition becomes a requirement through force of circumstances, i.e climate breakdown, societal collapse, and psychological fallout of what we think and know. What will become of us?
We know for sure that collapse of some measure is coming. That the current energy use is not sustainable. That the system produces inequality and in n out group conflict. What will become of us when we realise that we did not have to live this way at all, and alternatives were right there all along, and have been thought about, and some attempt at implementation.
How will we feel when it dawns on us that our childhood, and our children's experience of the world did not have to be so polarized, so divided, so fraught with uncertainty, blame, anger, prejudice, violence, threat of homelessness. I wonder just how many of us will be outraged, and wise enough to ensure we don't attack one another, shoot one another, stab one another, or blow each other up.
The funny thing about seeding a future "out there" is that it is myopic about seeding this home planet.
CO2 is not pollution. Plants take it in and release oxygen. It’s pumped into greenhouses to increase yields.
Chickens eat beetles.
I didn't agree with his take on animals, protecting biodiversity is incredibly important, otherwise interesting conversation.
❤ Wonderful conversation💭💬🗯 thank❤🌹🙏 you, blessed🙏 human beings😊
USE IT OR LOSE IT- WHY CONSERVE!!!!
Just loved his laugh.
😎
At the end of WWII, the US government made Marketing expenses 'tax deductible' for businesses in order to spur economic growth. That was understandable at that time in light of having just emerged from the Great Depression by means of the war effort which had ceased. But has the deductibility of marketing expenses been removed from corporate tax law? If not, doing so could have at least two benefits: reduction of frivolous consumption, and reduction of the barrage of advertisements besetting the public.
This new toys aka social media will wear off, we are still fresh to this.
Happiness pales in comparison to Contentment. Without Sadness, Happiness is meaningless. You can only attain Contentment by not avoiding Sadness and avoid pursuing Happiness. The breakthrough is spending most of your time in the now. We must learn from the Past, plan for tomorrow, everything flows from now.
I use San Chin moving meditation and other techniques such as Archery practice and playing Music to maintain Contentment.
I have been content in the World of Billionaires and the Poor. The Way is different for all, you can't achieve it by pursuit. It came to Elon Musk and Gandhi, they live in the now.
I shall teach San Chin moving breathing Technique this Winter. I didn't plan to do this. I'm here, this is what I do now.
I am Content.
I agree with smaller is 'more fun'. The bicycle beats the 4WD (SUV).
I want to disrupt VCs. I’m always wondering what’s the next VC. Degrowth + innovation? Is this possible?
Working at the bottom sounds a lot like John Michael Greer's views.
I created a framework: heal, be, create. It helps touch on each piece I think people may hyper focus on one. It’s to integrate all.
The 1% DO NEED the 99% to exist to exist.
The 99% DO NOT NEED the 1% to exist to exist.
The time for a colonic cleanse of the 1% is long overdue.
Love this! Perhaps if/as individuals heal themselves of their own traumas (part of which are the traumas inflicted by the system we're in) we'll create that space for Beingness which opens then into creativity.
If we're trapped in trauma responses, as I know only too well, our creative capacity shuts down. I lost mine for years, only regaining it now after years of trauma work--much of it included learning to be present, holding space for "what is." These matters are intertwined for sure, your comment really sparked something for me. As I continue healing/being I want to share and invite others to explore their own capacity to do so. Maybe there's a creative way to do that... Hmmmm. 😊❤️
"We'll blame the Jews." Yes, and Democrats will blame Republicans, Republicans will blame Democrats, some will blame the rich, others will blame communists, gun owners will blame sheople, blah, blah, blah. I wish I could be more optimistic about people joining together in common cause for good.
No place left to run to? Has Doug not heard of the places called New Zealand and Switzerland?
I like how critiques of btc never critique the actual whitepaper
I recall interviews from 2-3 years ago where Yanis Varoufakis said he read it several times and found it lacking or unpersuasive.
So that’s at least one off the top of my head.
Why pick on Epson? They're the ones who make Ecotank printers...
I get the impression that we should launch all world leaders into space, so they can obtain the world view necessary to change our course to something sustainable, or at least to stop petty wars and learn to work together. Agree?
The deep fundamental reality is that we are one people living on one small precariously-balanced planet floating amidst, and surrounded by, a Cosmos that doesn't care. EVERTYTHING else is a man-made distraction.
the way through is better than the way out......
I remember when Jeff Bezos co-opted the Amazon bookstore in Minneapolis and started his ascent riding the margin.
Love this! Love hearing intelligent people that are aware of reality and being optimistic about it, &love people more than things, and are banking on communities and finding positives in the face of change, instead of reveling in fear nd resentment, are choosing life and laughter and buckling down, simplifying life, saving energy vs.exploiting it. I just loved this entire vibe /attitude, I believe is exactly what will get us through, and I’m totally down with this. It put a big smile on my face nd I think more “everyday, common ppl will get this!☮️❤️🌎☀️💪🙏☝️😄👍🤝🐓🌹🍎⚾️⛸🚴🏻♀️🧗🏻♂️🎹💟☯️🌳🕊🐑🦋🐶👨👩👧👦🥰
Market demand or marketing 😭
How do we both go slow and fast? Reduce energy consumption and build out solar?
We need a restorative economy with incentives. Not just a 13th century consumption economy. Research Global Carbon Reward
I'm thinking about buying a better vehicle, but I should at least obtain an estimate on fixing this old one. *sigh*
Let's step away from fault and move toward responsibilty through action.
Yes! Climate refugees...and watching how the little birds don't make it through flood, then drought, then migratory flight, falling from the air when their metabolism finally fails. It is a progression.
I think '...but I like my car...' has to carry some blame.
1:01:32 _The algorithms are so freakin' powerful in the current world._ Uuh, yeah. It's becoming obvious that the doubling-down of entrenched elites on technology is the rational strategy. Especially militarily, Russia is openly articulating the notion of their superior military technology as the guarantor of state sovereignty. Elegance and frugality are superior choices in many situations but once the game reduces a few times these appropriate solutions can't compete with energy-guzzling brute-force tech. Nullifying this advantage is an area to give serious thought to, as there seem to be approximately zero ways to do that.
3:30
Bitcoin? Hardly. Think commodities during ecological and civil collapse, especially the agricultural kind. Maybe I watched Soylent Green once too often over the decades, or have seen too much during my disaster deployments down south, but I think you need to think much more basic when you plan the rest of your life.
OR we don't blame...we get way back and see the system...and then go in to be alive in it, consuming the surplus energy waste that is choking the system.
Very revealing that the comment I made with the 2nd most likes out of all the comments about truth in wealth inequality and power - did not get a "like" or "favorite" (or whatever) from this channel. Too "controversial" or revealing to draw attention too?
HOPE:hopium . Mental escapism , not facing the horrific reality looming . As much as worker owner business sounds good most normal people don’t have the endless greed, endless drive and cutthroat mindset AND the Capital to ride out 3 yrs not making a profit. Dream on .
I appreciate block chain...as a tool. Bitcoin is one of those aberrations.
This is a wonderful case study to demonstrate the validity of Dr. Ajit Varki's Mind Over Reality Transition (MORT) theory.
How is it possible that two intelligent aware people can discuss in depth how best to respond to overshoot and not even mention the one thing that might make the future less bad: population reduction policies?
It's not possible, unless our species evolved to deny unpleasant realities, as explained by MORT.
Population reduction will self regulate. War, Famine, Drought, Plague, Pestilence, etc.
@@Frank_Cosmo Genocide, Democide, Sterilization, Eugenics? We've done all of that. It's not that some nefarious architecture is the obstacle to our remembrance of what it means to be human. The meaning is neither elusive nor fugitive, and it certainly won't be wrung from the circumstances.
@@Frank_Cosmo There are dozens of effective population reduction policies that citizens could vote for however support for any of them will first require citizens to understand that the implications of not supporting them are FAR worse than any discomfort the policies may initially cause.
@@Frank_Cosmo I don't know what Dr. Varki thinks on this matter but I suspect high intelligence cannot exist without denial of unpleasant realities because otherwise we might make rational decisions that override MPP which is not permitted by the laws that govern life. So MPP does not override MORT, rather high intelligence cannot exist without MORT because of MPP.
@@Frank_Cosmo Lots of big stuff to comment on here so I'll try to do it in chunks.
1) First I should make it clear that Dr. Varki does not like me claiming that MORT enabled "high intelligence". He is very specific that MORT enabled an "extended theory of mind". I, being an electrical engineer, think "high intelligence" is a much clearer description of what happened when behaviorally modern humans exploded on the scene 1-200,000 years ago. MORT enabled a more powerful CPU which was required for an extended theory of mind (aka social cooperation abilities), AND a sophisticated hierarchical symbolic language, AND better reasoning/logic skills, AND more memory, etc. etc.
2) I think you may misunderstand the evolutionary dance between intelligence and denial. MORT says that i) an extended theory of mind on its own is maladaptive because awareness of mortality causes depression; and ii) that denial of mortality on its own is maladaptive because it causes excessive risk taking; and iii) however when fortuitously combined via an improbable double mutation that apparently happened only once on this planet creates an extended theory of mind that denies mortality (and as a side effect all other unpleasant realities since this is the easiest way for evolution to implement denial of mortality) and we end up with a super clever religious social ape capable of dominating all other species and capturing the majority of resources available on the planet, while aggressively denying that it is in a severe state of overshoot.
3) "Again, it seems that your unpleasant reality is that homo sapiens is simply a physical system". There is no doubt we are a physical system, and the implications can indeed be unpleasant to contemplate. I think the question you may have in mind is why do I waste so much time pushing for awareness of MORT? It's a good question.
The majority of people who attain a deep understanding of our overshoot predicament conclude that it was inevitable and that genetic human behavior prevents any positive change in our trajectory and so they simply try to enjoy what good days remain.
There are a few people, like for example Nate Hagens, Tom Murphy, David Korowicz, and Richard Heinberg, that are still working hard to raise awareness of our predicament in the hope that we change our trajectory to avoid the worst and/or create a good future. I belong to this group because (I think) I have a deep understanding of how rare high intelligence on a planet with abundant fossil energy and many other rare and necessary conditions for science and technology to flourish is in the universe, and therefore how tragic it is that we are not using our unique and rare intelligence to avoid racing off a cliff.
The reason I push MORT is that I think understanding it is central to any hope we might have. Simply pushing more overshoot education has not worked and will not work. We must focus on the genetic reason that 99.9% of people aggressively deny overshoot regardless of how much information we push at them.
MORT is the keystone lock that must first be picked. I'm not saying with certainty that overcoming genetic denial is possible. I am saying with certainty that nothing else will work, and therefore the few aware people that are still fighting for a better future should focus on MORT.
Interesting and Funny.
Nuclear?
Psychological maturity and spirituality are opposites. You can't be both
That's a new one on me. can you explain or provide a link to a good explanation?
Wrong. It’s the opposite.
According to psychiatrist M. Scott Peck they are one and the same. You cannot have one without the other.
there are a million ways to avoid using the word capitalism
With all due respect, and it's a lot, both of you miss what is necessary at this point. The only hope is rationing in all advanced nations. The super-rich get more but not that much more. The rich and middle class get in the middle and the working poor get the least, but still more than subsistence. So, what you need to work toward is the public and the rich, especially, accepting this is the reality, if we want to have any chance to avoid extinction by 2099. The poor in poor nations are not the problem, but may someday be rationed also.
No no, mommy and daddy said that baby gets to havey. I’m so incredibly entitled I can’t believe it. Anything bad happens always to someone else. He he