Rauru didn't get the sages killed. After he sealed Ganon, they went back to their tribes where Zelda met with them and convinced them to protect the stones to pass down to the future sages.
See this is where the power of interpretation comes in. I interpreted all of those segments with Zelda as mif way points - IE, they already had the stones, and as far as I'm aware had not returned them. Zelda actually went to lobby to the leaders for their help in the coming war, is how I saw those. So the timeline of events as I saw it in game was: - Zelda ends up back in Old Hyrule - Rauru and Sonia find her and take her under their wing, so to speak - Ganondorf swears fealty - Zelda is informed about draconification - Sonia is killed by Ganondorf, giving him immeasurable power - Rauru plans for war and enlists Zelda, as she now has the only power of time magic to help her, to speak with the sages in order for them to join the war. - They join the war effort, are given secret stones. - They lose and are inevitably beaten in battle, and killed - all bar Mineru who survives but her wounds are great. - Mineru infuses her spirit into the Purah Pad and passes away also, hence why her spirit talks about joining the aetherial realm at the end of the game. - Zelda becomes a dragon and restores the master sword. - Link finds Zelda, the Sword and heads into his final battle against an all powerful Ganondorf If you follow this, then this is why I keep saying the sages are dead and we see Rauru, Sonia and Mineru certainly are and by the time Link reaches the old sages, they have passed too. The stones, are housed within the temples, not with the aetherial spirits of the sages, and its on touching these that suddenly the spirit of the secret stone is released. In essence, I think it's the other way - the spirit doesn't hold the stone, the stone holds the spirit and why it acts as an amplifier.
@@heylistengaming only thing there is if the sages died in the battle with Ganon, then their stones would have been lost to the Depths? Unless Zelda collected them all and returned them to their people, but then there would have been no need for her to tell them to keep the stones safe for future generations.
@@thegreatescape13 hmm this is very true. I presumed they had been collected by someone, probably Zelda or Mineru. The future generations comment does put a slight hole in that though, unless they were in fact put inside the lotus' in the temples and Zelda was speaking to an aetherial form but they remember it as if they are there in person.
@heylistengaming I assumed the sages passed them on, as past Zelda has the conversation with each of them (or at least I distinctly remember the conversation with the Rito sage) within what would become the temples where Link would discover the stones in the "present".
Yup, it takes me a little while to get there but by the end of the video I'm 100% convinced of the same. Its not JUST the ears. The eyes, the patterning around the eyes, the snout, the generally wild hairstyle. Im just waiting now for fan art to pop up everywhere of Rauru as a dragon!
I think they are Zonai who sacrificed themselves to become immortal dragons, in order to seal the Triforce away. I don’t buy into the “Zelda has the Triforce” theory. I think it’s hidden. I think the ancient Zonai had the Triforce but at one point they decided it’s too powerful to remain in the mortal realm, so they broke it into shards and wrought those shards into Secret Stones. One shard each from the individual Triforces was eaten by a Zonai so that the Triforce would be sealed forever. This theory also gives a compelling reason for why draconification is really forbidden. Because after this strategy was put in place, any additional acts of draconification would weaken the seal and lessen the sacrifice of the ancient Zonai.
@@KittysCat-j7xit literally appears on her hand with none of the three shards faded out. That only ever happens when it resides within someone. They became dragons in order to protect and watch over the springs, hence why they stay in those areas
The Ancient Hylians worshipped those dragons; I don't think that Rauru made that rule. By the time Zelda reaches the past, that past with the Zonai among the Hylians was already a very old one. PS, those dragons are almost certainly ancient Zonai, minus the ones from Zelda or Ganondorf. They strongly resemble those of the Zonai race...especially those ears; certainly why they look so different from the Light and Demon dragons. As for Mineru, she was very much like Zelda...a scientist by nature. The other sages were not killed during the Imprisoning war, although Mineru was critically wounded. It was Zelda who came up with her plan after Ganondorf was sealed.
The stonework at the start of the game and Mineru's explanations of the tableaus does explain that the Zonai were almost Gods, who descended from the heavens long before their time, so this I can concur with - but I still feel as though Rauru knew a LOT more than he was letting on and therefore lied to us all based solely on the fact that he claims to know very little yet still knows how to cure Dragonification with zero impact on the character who gets transformed. Come the end of this video, I worked out that these were Zonai characters. I work my way to it, but yes, these were 100% Zonai, the other 3 dragons. The ears, snout, patterns under the eyes. It all points towards it. Zelda comes up with the plan, yes, after it is heavily implied by Rauru (telling her that she is in this time for a reason and she must do what she needs to)and Mineru (by explaining the process) , and so in turn, while she decides her fate, it is the words of others that have influenced that decision.
@@heylistengaming Rauru didn't "know" how to cure Draconification. He lucked out, by using every ounce of sacred bond energy from links new oaths from the sages. Along with both Sonia and Rauru's control over light and time. Probly feeding on all the light energy Zelda was emitting as the light dragon (as we saw that the power that Zelda had was stronger than Rauru and Sonia's combined during the molduga raid) Rauru's arm, which had Zelda's boosted time power, plus Sonia's control over time powers. And their thousands of years in the afterlife probly culminated as a "lucky present" to return both Zelda and link to their former body states. Thus giving a happy ending. Not once is it insinuated that Rauru knows more than he is letting on. Infact he makes a dumb assumption that history will turn out differently for his encounter with Gannondorf because of the statement. "perhaps it will have a different outcome, after all, last time we did this, you came from a history that you never traveled back in time to hell us" When we can see clues from both the begining of Totk and the middle of BotW that his theory is debunked. In BotW there is a quest to find the secret 8th heroine statue, that everyone thinks is myth. Low and behold the statue exists to the north west of the dividing mountains of the desert. The 7 "8" heroine statues represent the 7 sages, and Zelda being the time traveling 8th secret sage. Meaning that even in BotW we were already playing on the timeline that Zelda always was destined to travel into the past. The same is true of the beginning of Totk. As it's clearly shown to hide the set in stone history that Zelda was already going to travel to the past, try to help Rauru, fail, then eat the secret stone, become the light dragon and spend tens of thousands of years empowering the master sword.
Also, OBJECTION!!!! I will be the defense of Rauru. The Defense calls to cross-examine the defendant: 1) There is no evidence stating that Rauru put the stones in the temple because of draconification. We see what Ganondorf did with stone when he got his hands on it. The stones are dangerous without draconification because they augment the powers of the user, good or evil. Thus, they are sealed for that reason. Not draconification. The Sages are given the stones because of Ganondorf possessing a stone. Fight fire with fire. So that accusation is debunked. •Rauru does not know Zelda would have come to the future. He literally states to Zelda she comes from a timeline where they never meet. Perhaps you could say Rauru of the future knew of Zelda and gave the stone that way, but that can’t be held against past Rauru, who has no clue of Zelda’s fate and actively thought she came from a time where it all happens because she is absent from the past. •Rauru is wise? I think not. I present to you this evidence: Rauru has been characterized as preferring to go out hunting over his kingly duties and a lot of the good done to Hyrule was done with Sonia. Rauru is not wise. He is a little brother and young man (debatably). A himbo. The man thought it was a good idea to keep Ganondorf close to keep an eye on him, despite the fact that there is no way for Rauru to watch Ganondorf 24/7. The man is not wise. He is an idiot. A lovable one, but still an idiot. •He is entrusting the Sages who pledge themselves to him because he is the king of Hyrule, having all swear fealty to him. This accusation of known draconification because the Sages pledged themselves to him is not sound. The stones were given after Ganondorf stole a stone of his own. They belong to Rauru, so of course he is gonna only entrust those he knows will have his back in the coming battle against a mad man who stole power from his beloved. If Rauru gave the Sages stones prior to Ganondorf’s rise to power, I could see your point. But it is lost of the simple crucial mechanics introduced to us by Mineru of how the stones work first and foremost: They augment your existing powers. Thereby, making them potentially dangerous without factoring draconification. That is why he gives the stones after Ganondorf steals a stone. He is not gonna entrust more mad men with ultimate power. Based on the compiling evidence, I pronounce Rauru innocent of all charges on the account that he is not wise but acts like a young adult who would rather ditch important kingly duties for recreation like hunting, he constantly states wrong information without prompt as if he truly had none of the facts, and he is in fact just outright impulsive. Like a true younger brother in the prime of his life would act. The court rests.
You know, I can't even respond to this without smiling an awful lot. This is great work as a comment response, thank you! 1) The evidence of Rauru putting the stones into the lotus is evident by the fact that only he is able to open and close the lotus flower via his "arm of light" so to speak. He is the only one with any access, so either they belonged there to begin with and he was given divine passage to the stones in order to give them out to the right people of the kingdom, or he placed them there to begin with. The powers being augmented is a valid reason to hide the stones away, or would be if the powers weren't so...pathetic. Those powers, even when amplified are not dangerous, and are more defensive than anything - Riju's being the only noteable exception. Okay onto meeting Zelda - no, Rauru and Zelda never met in that timeline, however they also did. See, they met via Raurus arm, which has a power all of its own, and while Zelda and he never met formally, they met for a brief second as Rauru rescued Zelda and watched her fall into the abyss while her stone shined and transported her back to his time. Rauru has always been and will always be, the character that is most characterised by wiseness. He has always been represented by the owl, and this has been the case through many of the entries of the Zelda series. Yes, this is a different Rauru from a different time, and yes...unfortunately, he is an utterly loveable idiot, this the court upholds. Your argument contracts itself in that you say Rauru did not place them in the Lotus, yet the stones belong entirely to him. One cannot be without the other. So the argument here becomes whether or not Rauru is impetuous, reckless and stupid and led his people to death or ultimately lied to everyone about the true notion of draconification - and your argument does not help explain away the simple fact that he and sonia both understood how to return someone from that dragon state, without killing them. This can only happen via either research and then trial and error, or an innate knowledge that they had to begin with. Absolutely wonderful comment though, helps to remind me of why I do this :) Thank you
@@heylistengaming Objection! Rauru is the King of Hyrule, not the King of the Zonai. The Zonai civilization was the one that forbade the act and it was already gone from the surface when Rauru and Mineru came. Mineru was mentioning the act that was forbiden by their ancestors not by Rauru. . Ganondork himself mentions that there were more zonai before, but only Rauru and Mineru now stay in the surface. . . Also, it's prety much implied that the dragons still keep their motivations, their motivation to become dragons. It's not like they're still sentient, but that they still try to follow their purpose for turning into a dragon. The elemental dragons are servants and protectors of the springs which would be impossible had they lost everything of their minds. Zelda Became a Dragon to help link defeat the demon king and return the master sword to him, and that's what the light dragon does. Ganondorf became one the kill link and plung the world into darkness, and the demon dragon acts with this purpose.
@@heylistengamingwe really don’t know that they *did* know how to though. All we really know from that cutscene is that Force ghost Rauru and Force ghost Sonia clearly use an amplified recall by channeling their power through all 5 of Link’s stones that he acquires throughout the game. Also did the Goddesses of old not keep the Triforce hidden away for the very reason you are calling Rauru an idiot and a liar for? All three pieces grant the beholder a wish yes, but individually what do they actually amplify? Wisdom, not a particularly strong power though not useless, Courage, the power to continue to fight even in the face of fear or destruction, and Power. We’ve seen multiple times now through Ganondorf what the triforce of Power can do to a man. So why would the Rauru take the risk of keeping the stones out in the open?
It gets stated, I believe, by Mineru at the very end that they used both their light and time power and channelled it through Link in order to use him as an amplifier of sorts. Its with his power that they're able to achieve this, and would not have been able to before hand. Sorry, but with the fate of Zelda on the line, they would just take a shot in the dark and hope that it would work? I can't see that. It is a presumption, yes, but I cant see that they wouldnt outright KNOW it would work. I didnt call Rauru an idiot for hiding amplifiers, and in fact its the wrong word entirely. Rauru knew and understood the damage the stones, in the wrong hands could do. He knew hiding them away was correct, and it was. I have no objection there. Understanding ramification is smart and understandable. The issue that I have with Rauru isn't that he's an idiot, per say, I think that he is more calculated than we give credence to, and that he understood by giving his sages the stones, they would all go to war for him though they stood no chance in the battle, because the point was ALWAYS to lose, to seal Ganondorf away and martyr himself, and with that, take the last of the good that Zelda had in this new world - a world that she had just joined after being ripped from her own world, away from the person she loves the most, where her family had all died and she considered herself to be a failure (See BOTW). Rauru should hide the stones away, absolutely, and like I said, I admit idiot is the wrong terminology. (I got wrapped up answering the comment above, and I still find Rauru loveable even if he's more calculated than first thought.)
Yeah he went so hard for Rauru being secretly evil I'm kinda surprised he didn't call him out for turning Zelda human again hundreds of miles in the sky making them both crash back to Hyrule lol
Except...Raru and his sister aren't the only two Zoani to never have existed so it was probably forbidden BEFORE him by a different leader and yes, he probably had no idea why. Why WOULD he allow such power to be accessible to anyone else? We saw what can happen if it falls into the wrong hands.
Yep, I acknowledge the fact that they're not the only 2 to have ever existed and it was likely forbidden before their time - however, let's say that IS the case, it doesnt stop the fact that he knows FAR more than he lets on, and understands that Zelda NEEDS to undertake the transformation. He hasn't seen it fall into the wrong hands, and tbh the powers of the secret stones are minimal. They amplify already latent powers by the seems of things. The issue is the swallowing of the stone, but Ganondorf by all right SHOULDN'T know about this?
You are right that Rauru is a terrible leader. The ancient sages all say that the powers the new sages have were the powers that the old sages had. Ganondorf isn't going to be killed by a gust of wind or a goron rolling into him. Rauru didn't pick the best warriors. In contrast, if Zelda with her sealing power at full strength, Link with the Master Sword, and the Champions with their powers and weapons(Revali does get bomb arrows), Ganondorf would have had a much harder time.
Because he's got a good boy face, people seem to empathise with him more but Rauru is an absolutely terrible leader! You're right. Their powers were not enough for Ganondorf - and worst still, Rauru KNEW full well they would fail, he even states it and explains that it'll need to be Link that finishes the job. He martyr's himself, knowing his comrades will be hurt in the process and nearly killing his sister, as well as getting his wife killed by a lack of planning and protection. Even if they dont die (oops, I made a mistake in the video with that), they are all badly injured as a result of his poor choices. Nice to see someone agree with me!
The problems I have with the way you think things went down is that it was Mineru, not Rauru, who knew about the ritual. It seemed like new information to Rauru - he kept the Sacred Stones sacred not because of Draconification, but because of the power they have and how that power could be used if it fell into the wrong hands. Also, I have a feeling that the three Dragons were ALL Zonai, not three different races. If we look at Dragondorf and Dragon Zelda, they have appearances that are highly influenced by their original appearance. The goat-like appearances of the three dragons faces with floppy ears and white manes match with Rauru, a (male ) Zonai (Mineru's ears are pointed up and she has no mane- and while yes, a sample size of 2 Zonai is too small to fully accurately extrapolate data, it's the best we have to work off of). So in my mind, the Zonai who likely became the dragons likely preceded Rauru by...a LOT. As for the elemental nature of those people? It was not due to their race. Every person has a natural ability of their own that the Sacred Stones merely enhances, not grants. Ganon's ability was Malice thanks to his nature as Demise's hatred incarnate. Zelda's is light and time due to the genetics of Rauru and Sonia (which is interesting, as that definitely indicates these traits are hereditary). And of course, every Sage and their abilities are also innate to them (but in their case, is indeed influenced by their race, but I am making the case that that is an exception, not the rule). It's obvious that the Zonai have existed for a very, very long time- Rauru was one of the last, not one of the first Zonai. Just because Rauru and Mineru are the only significant Zonai we know of in the era of TotK's past does not mean they were the only significant Zonai to exist. Another point of consideration is that your implication that the Golden Goddesses would have no reason to become Dragons themselves could be a case of building a carriage before you've bought or tamed a horse. In mythology, especially in Zelda, Dragons are treated as divine being, immortal Gods, and let's not forget that the Zonai themselves were revered as Gods in the past. Perhaps the Golden Goddesses were indeed Zonai who became Gods by eating their sacred stones. They likely had to do it to stop the incarnation of Demise from their time (regardless if it was Demise himself, some predecessor, or etc). And one theory I saw definitely makes this seem more legitimate by pointing out that Zelda herself is implied to have the whole Triforce in her body, and she becomes a Dragon and houses the Master Sword. So if we were to extrapolate things: She became a God (a Dragon), who 'created' the Triforce and master sword (thus becoming 'Hylia'). You could view what happened in TotK's backstory as re-explanation for the origins of the series itself. I mean, Skyward Sword certainly makes it clear that there were Dragons who predated History of Hyrule itself. I make no claim that this is fact, I merely bring this up as a different perspective based on the information we are given, without outright fully calling into question Rauru. He was definitely misinformed and mistaken about a few things, but in my mind, he was definitely not intentionally 'lying' as it were.
Hey, wow, first of all thank you for leaving such a detailed comment. I really do appreciate it. Okay so my argument here is that Rauru surely MUST know more. He does seem surprised by Mineru's claims, but I think this is more of an act based on what he says later on to Zelda about her being in the past for a distinct reason, and that Link will need to be the last line of defence. This one line alone, something I actually don't bring up enough in the video on the subject, is enough for me to call into question not only his motives with ensuring Zelda has the stone (The seal breaks as she approaches, so it therefore must be under his control to some degree at least, or it's the most crazy coincidence ever that the seal breaks when she approaches it.) He clearly has grand plans for the princess and her role within the world(s). He perhaps DOESN'T see her power activating with the stone and her transporting back to their era, which causes for a change of plans, but he knows enough to hatch a plan to begin with, involving her. Also, Rauru and that third eye of his know more than meets the eye about the Imprisoning War also. He understands from the very beginning that he can't win. Even after the death of his beloved, he still understands he can't win, and knows that without Zelda, ALL of his plans would have failed. I bring this up because without Zelda, he doesn't distract Ganondorf. He NEEDS Zelda with him for the war, as foretold in the tapestries, and he likely has seen all of this via the power of his wife, Sonia - who controls time. It would not be a far stretch to assume that one or both of them can see the past and future. Now onto the dragons. This video, I change my mind quite dramatically even within the video ITSELF. Towards the end, I am of 100% opinion that the dragons are 3 former Zonai members. Now, I accuse Rauru of testing on Zonai, but no, I actually agree that these Zonai were ancient beings. Without meaning to sound like a shill for my own videos, my "Dragons and Depths" video explains this completely. I think that 3 Zonai with elemental powers were given the task of protection of the world. They live in peace for many years until a calamity style event occurs. We have not heard about this yet in games, but it's akin to the great floods. In order to protect the world and its peoples, the dragons lift a chunk of the world, or several chunks rather, to the sky with the Zonai peoples on board - hence their sudden disappearance. The world is then created anew, on the ashes of the old - covering the old world with a new crust as it were, and therefore the depths are born. The golden goddesses, I think by this time period are still non-existent. They disappeared after the worlds first creation as described in OoT and only left the Triforce as an artifact. The dragons are not golden goddesses, but are potentially Zonai with powers similar to, which is why the wording indicates that they had "close to god like powers", that's paraphrased of course. We are probably more looking at a situation where swallowing the stones turned them into immortal deities, so the Zonai become the Gods rather than the Gods were Zonai. I think I've seen the Zelda has the triforce video, it's an interesting concept. I'm just not entirely sure that she does. The reason for this is something I really need to explain in a video - but using timelines is all good and well, but each game should be treated more like the SAME story, passed down through generations and generations. As the story passes down through each race of people, each generation, the story changes in detail. From where the events happened, to how they happened. Each change better reflects the world as it is now. At the time of telling the story, the Triforce was told to children in order to teach them the virtues and vices of Power, Wisdom and Courage. Now, those lessons aren't needed as much as say, the idea that with the right support you can overcome anything. I've acknowledged. I was a LITTLE harsh on our floppy eared friend, but I do think he knew more than he lets on. Again, thank you soooo much for the comment.
@@heylistengaming Rauru does not come across to me as manipulative or evil. He seemed very honest and forthcoming- and omniscient, he was definitely not. He knew Ganondorf was evil, hence his plan to keep an eye on him, but even with the aid of Zelda, somebody from the future who could CONFIRM Ganon's evil intentions, they could not prevent Sonia's death- and I sincerely doubt any scheme Rauru would intentionally make would lead to the death of the woman he loved, regardless of how you feel about his intentions- he was not playing 4D chess here, all did NOT go as planned- and I doubt he really wanted to sacrifice his own life to keep Ganon at bay, he simply had no choice but to entrust the future to Zelda's knight, as he knew that was the best path forward, as that's how History had already been going based on what Zelda and the wall carvings told him. Rauru's knowledge of the future seemed pretty limited to a few things: that which Zelda told him, and that which the carvings on the wall foretold (and I am sure those carvings also predate Rauru by a lot). The way I think the Recall power works does not allow LIMITLESS control of time, and isn't the same as precognition- we only ever saw Sonia use it for very specific things- single objects for a limited time, like how it works in the game itself. Zelda herself seemed to have far stronger time powers than Sonia, considering she recalled all the way back to the past- but I also argue that that was because it was originally Sonia's stone, from that era- it simply 'recalled' back to its origin, which is all that power ever really is ever SHOWN to do, not traveling back and forth through time freely (hell, Zelda, who learns to control that same time Power, does not use it to TRAVEL to the present, she is forced to become a dragon to both LIVE LONG ENOUGH to carry the Master Sword to the present, and RESTORE IT to its original state- and I think it is likely that the Recall power might have had the ability to at least do the latter, but I do not think it would have allowed her to travel back to the present, at least if the ability works the way I think it does, and by all accounts of how it's used in the story AND the gameplay, I do think that's the case. I definitely think there's a lot of merit AND evidence for Zelda having the Triforce. in BotW and TotK, personally. It definitely shows the triforce on her hand as she holds the Master Sword while becoming the Dragon. I feel there's, more than enough implication that the Sealing Power she has is in fact derived from the Triforce itself, especially given its otherwise noteworthy omission, something that is frankly nearly unheard of throughout the series, except in cases like MM and Link's Awakening, both parallel worlds (one definitely imagined, the other we don't know for sure if it actually exists or was all in Link's head). But ultimately, I do think there's a lot of subjectivity and interpretation to these things. I for one, do not plan to reject the timeline in favor of treating the series as the same story retold many different ways, I plan to still try to figure out how everything works within the timeline we have. After all, as far as Word of God is concerned, that timeline is still valid.
11:54 Dunno if anyone has pointed this out (I'm commenting this mid-watching of the video), but Rauru absolutely does NOT get all of the Sages killed against Ganondorf. Only he himself died in that battle for the sake of protecting everyone else. Proof of this is that the Sages can be seen watching after Zelda's transformation into a Dragon and soaring into the sky. And they are NOT ghosts, as King Rhoam, the Champions, and even Rauru have shown us what a ghost/spirit looks like. Rauru is not a perfect leader by any means, but he IS a great leader for making the ultimate sacrifice to save both the Sages and Zelda (yes she's a Sage too but she's from the future so I'm classifying her by herself); giving his life for those close to him.
Yup, this has been picked up on a lot and I've admitted that it's an oversight on my part. He doesn't get the sages killed, but he should have been more protective of Sonia, as her death essentially caused much of what happens next with the secret stones.
With the aid of secret stones that only Rauru had access to due to his arm? Unless that power passes down generations and the previous generations of Zonai had no belief in a monarchy prior to Rauru, which would of course be possible but feels a bit like an oversight.
@@heylistengamingauru was never said to be King of the Zonai. I believe he gained the monarch moniker through the marriage to Hylia-descended (and true ruler of whatever Hyrule was before a full-on kingdom) Sonia. I haven't heard from any lore video or my own investigation that says Rauru was a king of his people, just one of the last so the OP of the comment thread here has a point
@@heylistengamingin the game the picture shown of the zonai with secret stones around him as the zonai is in a meditation position, (the mural) that isn’t rauru that was someone who descended way long before rauru who had access to the secret stones so this theory doesn’t really make any sense
@@captain_9824 the theory isn't stating Rauru was the only Zonai ever, much the opposite, but that Rauru knew fully about the effects of dragonification and most importantly how to cure it, and to do so he and Mineru would have needed to research it, meaning they had others turned into dragons in order to test how to revert it. Still, despite that drawing, the Secret Stones are exclusively accessed via the Zonai arm which only Rauru has in this current age he is within, and they were locked away in order to hide the amplification of powers and to stop the forbidden act from occurring. However, Rauru knows the moment the story of the ancient Zonai and dragonification is told to Zelda that he can lead her down the path to make sure she feels it's her only option and he condones it by telling her she is in his time period for a reason.
1. Sages didn't die in the battle with Ganondorf 2. Raoru and Mineru are the last 2 Zonai, but not the necessarily the first or only ones 3. Raoru owns the secret stones, but does it say that he created them? He may have inherited them after the ritual was forbidden prior to Raoru's birth
Also when Mineru mentions the process of draconification Rauru seems to be a little confused, it appears as though Mineru has more knowledge of the act than him and if he was the one to outlaw it that feels unlikely
Phew. There's been a lot to respond to today! 1. According to the sages cutscenes when you clear the dungeons, they are all individually bested in battle and then the next you see of them, they are ethereal, as are Rauru and Sonia, who we know for sure died. So 2 and 2 can be put together. 2. Yep, I agree here and I may have not mentioned the ancient zonai on account of only taking this games era into account. 3. Rauru owns them for sure, where they came from is another matter but my point ends up being more than only he can access them. For him to have given them to Zonai of his time, may not be such a stretch. Equally, yes they could be dragons from eras long gone by, made from Zonai who ate the rocks. I dont deny that much but equally he knows more about the process than he let's on. @itzcookie1248 he seems to act surprised and unknowing yes, but then knows how to restore a dragon back to human form, and let's not forget Rauru should be all wise - he has come from an ancestry of near God's and the Rauru name is always synonymous with wisdom and Owls, and he even has a third eye which is usually a symbol of wisdom or otherworldly knowledge. He knows more than he let's on with Minerus conversation because he knows he needs Zelda to complete her mission of turning into a dragon.
Doesn't break your theory but just because draconified Zelda saves Link, doesn't mean it's remembering anything from when she was a Hylian. The dragon can have their own thoughts and feelings. Dragon Zelda could very well be saving Link on instinct. Otherwise, why would she be saving him more often or actually do anything but fly around until the final battle
It's hard to say but I'd argue that she knows who link is, and what relevance he has, due to the regularity of making sure he completes his mission. Yes, the dragons could have their own thoughts and feelings but then the other 3 literally circle the same paths over and over like some weird groundhog day, releasing their elemental affinities and changing weather systems as they do. They have seemingly, no mind, just routine and pattern otherwise they would surely break their own cycles. They are beasts as Zelda lore would describe them, and don't discriminate between hero and villain, yet Zelda does. She knows the hero's quest, she understands the evil of Ganon-Dragon and I actually think this is because of her emotional tie to Link, hence her tears as she turns into the dragon.
Not sure if someone said it already but Mineru was the only sage to be fatally injured. The others actually lived and made sure that the stones were safe for their descendants to find and use them to help Link. Edit: the sages were also there to watch Zelda become the dragon, and were the ones to lift the sky islands up after she turned. Edit: i see there was already a convo about it but will still leave this comment up.
Yeah we smashed out this idea, and yes, I got it wrong that the other sages did not die. They did live on, indeed. However, I've watched back the cut scenes about 2 million times at this point in time and I FULLY endorse still, that he is in part, responsible for Sonia's death.
the stone that Zelda received wasn't from ganondorfs husk, it falls from rarus arm, which is why the seal was broken. Ganondorf had his stone (Sonias) throughout the game and final fight. So then it also wouldn't be called the "Stone of time" it was just a secret stone. they don't have the powers they amplify the powers of the holder.
I thought I corrected that throughout the video as I said it drops from Raurus arm as it falls but if not, yeah. I was mentioning the secret stones by elemental name purely to differentiate them because 8 secret stones when we're talking about different people holding them becomes hard to track. Hers becomes of time (with an element of light) while ganondorfs becomes of darkness.
If Zelda could hold an object while being a dragon, isn't it possible that the three dragons each hold a physical piece of the triforce, which is why no one in these two games talk about the triforce?
So I have an idea on this regarding the idea that each game is NOT as connected as we want it to be, and the reason things keep getting retconned is because the entire timeline is complete rubbish, created JUST to satiate the fans asking. In reality, the games should resemble the SAME story over and over again, but told as a different legend as time goes on. The belief in the triforce is during an era of church and religion, hence the temple of time, the songs that are sung, the belief that certain stones will lead you into the sacred realm. Its much more an age of superstition and religion in the era of OoT so as a result, you get more of a recounting of religious artifacts; Goddesses, sacred artifacts, and isn't it funny that this cooperates better with the idea of real world religion too, as every religion effectively weighs the pureness of your heart to better decide if you go to a Heaven or a Hell, the same as what happens when Ganondorf reaches for the Triforce - his heart is measured and Hyrule becomes his, a literal hell. By the time of the era of the wilds, the age of religion has passed us. The only religious buildings left are crumbled and decayed, and the only effigies left are the few, and far between, Goddess Statues, there to remind the people of Hyrule of their religious aspects. In the Wilds though, science has won the day. We are in a very scientific age, the need for stories of an artifact that grant wishes...simply isn't important, so the story of the Triforce has been lost to age. HOWEVER, there are remnants of the Triforce by those who have powers - those who have powers akin to Gods of some format. Link - his initial armour set has Triangles hanging from it. Sonia has a Triforce Tattoo on her arm. The markings ARE there, but their meanings are completely lost to time now. Now we believe in science, but back in the times of Rauru's era, we are more religious and superstitious. We believe that the founders so to speak had the powers of Gods, a legend passed down from era to era. We believe that rocks contain amplification magic. We know magic still exists in this world, so that's fine. We are superstitious in the fact that the rocks contain so much power they need to be locked away/we know about becoming immortal through swallowing the stones.
@@heylistengaming Who believes in science, though? I guess I find this confusing because it appears the Yiga use ninja magic and Zoni technology which is fueled by light magic. The Sheika use Zoni technology but also use spiritualism/religious belief to mummify themselves (like Buddhist Monks) and everyone tends to / decorates their goddess statues based on their cultural beliefs. Zelda prayed to the Goddesses 100 years ago and then her prayers were answered 100 years later... The Great Fairies exist and the Stables acknowledge the horse God.
I had a whole different thought on the tears and why Raura locked them up. I always assumed that they were the secret stones of his immediate family. So they are near and dear to him as the last relics of his zonal family. Mineru discussing draconification seemed very separate, and it gave me the impression they don't fear it necessarily because it is such a vile fate to bestow on yourself. Lose your memories and will? What's the point? He is still a terrible leader though. Great video!
I think that's the thing with zelda games, isn't it? It's easy to form your own assumptions. I've seen no text in the game that alludes to the idea that these are family heirlooms, though they could be as they were passed from chief to chief of the Zonai clan. They don't fear draconification, that is for sure, and I agree, how you put it is definitely how they feel towards it, but I feel they have 100% researched it - after all, that's Mineru's role in their group - research, and I feel more than anything, rather than afraid, they are curious. Oh yes he is not a good leader at all. Nope. Thank you!
@@sophitiaofhyrule do not tempt me write a video essay on the failings of every known ruler of the Hyrule Kingdom because I swear, there's not one that is actually capable of ruling well!
The Frostbite, Ember and Charged armor resemble the three dragons. I think they were ancient Zonai warriors who were protector of the sacred springs. They swallowed their Secret Stones to become immortal dragon to keep watching over the springs.
Well I have a theory at the depths used to be the original "surface" of Hyrule and what's now the surface of Hyrule was created when 3 goddesses or 3 ancient zonai decided the land had become too chaotic and filled with darkness and evil so they raised the great platue into the sky while using the triforce to shape the land over the depths sealing them deep below and creating a new land bathed in light and peace. And splitting the triforce into 10 pieces that became the sacred stones. Then at some point a demon broke from the depths at the location under the great platue and 3 zonai, who were reincarnations of the 3 goddesses/ancient zonai, swallowed a sacred stone to use it's power in order to seal the demon while lowering the great platue into the land, re sealing the depths and bringing the zonai back to the surface. Then many years later we see the events of ToTk Past which are this timelines parallel version of the events in ocarina of time just without link having been born yet.
Well then great minds do think alike lol plus it just seems like all the clues are there for for that being this timelines history at least somewhat. Im just wondering how closely this timeline parallels the OG timeline (like is there events on this timeline parallel to every game in the series just slightly different?) and if it's a split timeline originating from the triforce splitting into 10 or if there were some other time shenanigans done to create this parallel timeline? I look forward to seeing what youve come up with in future videos 😊
One plot hole to this theory is how were the ghosts of the first champions able to give the current champions there spirit stones if they swallowed them. You cant be a ghost and an Immortal dragon at the same time.
And this is one of the reasons why by the end of the video I've changed tact and we're no longer looking at the first champions, but rather 3 zonai from within Raurus era.
Hmm…..how would they know that the dragon’s lost themselves? Zelda herself appears to have some semblance of herself, even if subconscious. But that happens in the future. Mineru seems to know already what will happen to the mind… There must have been a telepath or soul reader of sorts who could sense the mental state of the dragons to determine them gone and stop the ritual.
Actually this is a really good question, unless they just analysed the way the dragons acted and made the presumption that they lost their minds as they circle around and around after their formation. Bare in mind that they are full formed dragons from the off, and almost seemingly lose their mind from the beginning. Mineru though, as the sage of spirit perhaps infused herself into one of the dragons as a temporary measure as part of the research? I'm just stretching for ideas now!
Hylians in general have telepathic abilities which we know dating back to lttp so yeah, but also, someone would have absolutely HAD to have done this before for them to even “know” what happens, hell even Ganondorf knows about it
My take is the Zonai were people of magic and they were prospering well. But in their research for magic they stumbled on/created the secret stones and began experimenting. That led them to understand two important things about draconification. First, that it grants you eternal life Second, that your mind changes to a completely different being. The zonites did not care about the latter to become immortal but they forgot something important. To procreate to keep the species. So Rauru had to take a hylian to keep his bloodline and forbid the stones as they were the species demise (pun intended). In regards of the dragons in totk I believe they are the same as din, farore and nayru, who are former zonites that came to this land. And their elements are the powers each individual had when they were zonites.
Thank you! I really appreciate that. On your ideas, solid foundation I feel. I just dont think the experimentation stopped at the ancients. I think that any true scientist would want to conduct studies themselves and Mineru is a prime example of this. I also think that you don't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and this feeds into my idea that both Rauru and Sonia knew how to solve Draconification, and if I'm not wrong, the ancients - even IF they knew about Draconification and were the ones to originally forbid it, they only knew that a draconified sentient being would lose what it is that makes them them, and as far as I am aware, they did not know of a cure as it were. This, is something that only the sage of light and the sage of time know of, and as such, they both knew a LOT more than they ever let on about the process. Din, Farore and Nayru COULD have been - and as a part of logic I think this could be the case - Ancient Zonai who were named after the golden goddesses and nothing more in that regard - and they potentially could have had very early renditions of the powers seen in the sages of Fire, Wind and Water, hence their elemental changes to Dinraal, Farosh and Naydra. Either way, these dragons are for sure, Zonai.
You gave this big long explanation as to why the Gorons might eat the secret Stone to become the Dragon. They literally eat rocks. I bet one of them decided that it looked tasty
Rauru doesnt get all the sages killed. The only sage death attributed to the fight with rauru and gannondorf is Rauru himself being sealed with gannondorf, and Mineru having fatal injuries. The timeline then continues. Zelda reaches out to each of the sages, who build a temple to test the future sages tk guage their worthyness tk inherit the secret stones. And ensure that link will have a new sage for that time to fight alongside link. The cutscenes of zelda talking to each sage. That link and the sage prospect see at the beginning and end of each temple happens after the fight and sealing of Gannondorf. Each of the other sages either die of old age, or die guarding their temple/homeland.
Again, I saw a lot of this at the time of writing as a different order or structure, perhaps. I figured Zelda had gathered the sages, to use the stones in the upcoming fight, with the eventual view - Raurus vision as it were, that they would fight and lose against Ganondorf, but then the stones would be returned to their locations inside of the lotuses in the temples. Actually the number of stones actually supports this idea that I just stated. For the dragons to have dragonified, they all must have had a stone. This means that there are 7 stones active and 3 in the sky and now one extra because Zelda carries a stone back in time with her. This means that there are 11 stones total, but we know that's not the case because there are 5 sages, Rauru and Ganondorf/Sonia with the original 7 stones. There's only an 8th stone in this era due to time travel. The dragons, as dragons should also carry 1 stone each, but there is no sign of the stone - not like Ganondorf anyway where the stone is clearly on show in his head. If - however - the stones regenerate in the lotus flowers many years after their use - to turn someone into a dragon - at the point where they HAVE lost their minds completely, perhaps, then we have our way for the stones to be reappearing in the lotus flowers. The same could be said for if the holder is defeated. Holder is killed --> stone shatters --> reforms in a lotus flower. It's just an idea at this point, nothing firm and will be debunked because there's no significant evidence to support the idea, but its an idea. As Link, we talk to aetherial forms of the sages. They're dead. That much is for sure. We also know Mineru is dead, as is Rauru and Sonia. We see the latter 3 again - we know Mineru did NOT die in that battle but possibly from her wounds later on after she infuses her soul into the purag pad, but what we don't know is about the others - for sure. It seems as if Zelda re-gives them the stones to pass to future generations, but would this not defy the point if they already had the stones in the imprisoning war? The idea of them being kept for future generations could be simply, that even in their deaths, they still are tasked with guarding the stones. Wouldn't be the first time a video game enlisted the help of the dead for a major plot point. Thank you for all of your comments. I really appreciate how involved so many of you guys have been. It's really fun getting to debate all.of this with you!
@@heylistengaming I really hope that your theory is correct about the stones eventually reforming after being destroyed. That would be so cool, and I want Paya as the sage of shadows. But if the theory of there having been 7 stones always being correct and the 3 guardian dragon sage stones being returned after consumption... Why did Zelda's stone not return to the lotus after the 10s of thousands of years. (This also proves that if there were 7 stones and they went back to be used by other sages, means that they had to have been super ancient. As Zelda was a light dragon for the entirety of the timeline. As the 1st calamity was the only defined timeframe we know and that was 10k years ago. Which was when calamity Gannon popped out and the ancient hero defeated calamity Gannon. The events of Zelda traveling back to Rauru and Sonia's time is unmeasured. But well beyond 10k years) No, the evidence suggests there were 10 in ancient times. 3 got eaten and became the guardian dragons of the springs. And the murals depicting the 7. (Which were created under the ruins of Hyrule. Meaning the murals were made to tell the tale of after Rauru and gannondorf got sealed. Therefore making the murals date back to that time. Well after the Draconification events of the guardian dragons were ancient knowledge. Zelda never gave the stones to the sages. She was asking them to set up trials to make future sages and ensure tk pass on their power and have a representative fight alongside link in the future. They didn't fail to kill gannondorf, then return their stones, then Zelda return them and ask for help. That order of operations is very backwards. I agree with your assessment that it's very strange we don't see the secret stones on any of the dragons except gannondorf's demon dragon. Which is very strange. He seems to be an exception to the norm of not seeing the stone. Upon further looking into screenshots of the Demon Dragon form. It seems that in the start, his secret stone isn't visible. It's only after defeating all of the Gloom/Malice polyps does the stone surface on his forehead. Thus making it vulnerable to attack and being shattered.
One thing I don't really get about Rauru is that he is credited as the first king of Hyrule... but it's also noted that the Zonai *descended* upon the Hylians from the heavens. That implies Hylians, or anscestors of them, existed before anyone met Rauru... and therefore before the first king of Hyrule... so was there simply no ruler of the land prior to Rauru appearing? Or are we assuming that the land was divided by the races, and so it hadn't become Hyrule for Hyrule to have a king prior to this?
Hmmmmmmm....game of hyrule apparently. Possible multiple groups with claims to thrones? Weirdly, my assumption was kind of that as the last male Zonai, and the fact that Zonai were thought to be God like throughout history, that he sort of proclaimed himself as King - but we KNOW there were Kings before him - just Kings now, of legend such as Dapnes Johanssen Hyrule. These Kings existed but millenia before so they almost are left to legend now.
all kings have ever done through history is turn up in an already peopled land and tell these people that they are now being ruled and use their more advance weapon technology to enforce this rule and impose arbitrary borders. This is probably what Rauru did. Maybe this is why Ganondorf revolted, because he was just there chilling in the desert with the Gerudo when Rauru turned up and was like, you all are Hylians now and I'm in charge
My assumption is that it has to do with the timeline split that happened way back in Ocarina of Time. Sounds outlandish, I know, but bear with me. Thanks to the consequences of Zelda sending Link back to the past in Ocarina of Time, there are three separate timelines in the series: Downfall, Adult, and Child. Each one of these timelines have resulted in vastly different Hyrules, with the latest games in the Child timeline even taking place in a completely new version of Hyrule after the old Hyrule Kingdom was flooded. If the timeline were to somehow bring itself back together at some point, it’d result in complete chaos. Places and potentially entire human beings would cease to exist while others would seemingly pop into existence. Given that the locations named in BotW and TotK are named after previous locations despite being nowhere near said previous locations, I believe that the proposed timeline merging happened and that, for a period of time, the world was thrown into chaos (this would also explain how the Zora and Rito can exist at the same time; without a timeline combination, it’s pretty much impossible). People had hazy memories of their lives before this and the things that they were sure of tended to cause arguments with others who originally came from differing timelines, but common threads emerged like the Goddess Hylia and the Hyrulian Royal Family’s Weird Magic Triangles. The Zonai eventually descended from the sky and brought order to the currently chaotic surface world. Everyone knew there had once been a kingdom of Hyrule, but nobody could agree on anything else involving the history of the kingdom, so Rauru was recorded as the first King of Hyrule because they didn’t really know what else to do. TLDR; it’s just the timeline causing chaos, as always.
I've actually seen this. It does kind of throw this more into the realm of the idea that the dragons were born from the triforce. However, a marking there could also be an Easter Egg as the devs have already made it crystal clear that Zelda seems to hold the triforce now.
@@heylistengamingThis is gonna sound like a stretch, and I could be wrong, but just hear me out for a second. I personally think that Zelda's triforce in BotW is symbolic of her goddess ancestry, here's why: The triforce only appears on Zelda's hand when she uses her power. Otherwise, it's not visible on her body (Fact check if I'm wrong, I haven't played the game in a while). In every other mainline Zelda game, the pieces of the triforce are visible on whoever possesses them. That's why I think it's symbolic of Hylia's blood within her. As for the dragons, each individual piece is visible on the body of each dragon. Personally, I believe that either the dragons were each given a piece of the triforce by hylia to protect, which would also explain why they had to take on the form of immortal dragons, so that they could preserve the triforce within them throughout time immemorial to prevent it from finding it's way into the wrong hands. It's also really cool to imagine three noble Zonai sacrificing their own wills in order to preserve such a powerful artifact. Either that or three very hungry Zonai thought the three pieces were golden Doritos and decided to have a snack.
When Link enters the Temple of Time and see's the growing Orb and sees Zelda, I believe that she found a way to remove her Recall ability for Link. He sent the Master Sword back in time with Recall, which Zelda recieved. She knew Link would need Recall/Time Magic in order to send the Sword. This is why (I believe) she is the Light/White Dragon, she removed her time powers so all that was left was the Sacred Light Magic in which she could bathe the Master Sword in. She couldn't risk the stone making her anything other than a source of Sacred Energy. I believe that her last wish to hell like is what kept her from truly losing herself over all the years. On a side note, I believe that the other dragons left part of themselves in the labyrinths, amd their last wish was to protect their springs and it's region for all time, that's why they do what they do. The dragons are the embodiment of that last wish/desire before swallowing their stones.
Zelda giving the recall ability makes a lot of sense. It's a time based magic, which she holds, and you could almost say at the end, Link uses her time magic to restore her alongside the spirits of the Zonai. It's an interesting idea for sure and one that's hard to disprove.
Hey great vid, just a counter theory here, we see how different Zelda’s dragon of light and how the “spoiler free” 5th dragon look compared to the other 3. The fact that the other 3 have floppy ears & a goat shaped head makes me feel like they were zonai just because they have different elements doesn’t really mean they have to be different races. The springs have been said to have their guardian dieties (these dragons) but have been cared for by the hylians because the last 2 dragons introduced retain some of their features I can only assume that it’s male zonai that were dragonified
I actually touched on this in the video. The other dragons were Zonai, I'm 95% sure of it, and it's due to their appearance in comparison to Zelda-Dragon and the fifth.
The dragons are very clearly implied to be zonai. They aren’t gerudo, Zora, and gorons. Notice how different the light dragon looks, because she originated from a hylian. It’s repeated often that the zonai seemed at first to be gods, which means that tears of the kingdom is literally a rewrite of the entire canon. This is a much deeper rabbit hole than it seems, and you’re trying to keep it surface level. Like it or not, all of the old games have been retconned.
Yes they are implied to be Zonai, I get to this in the section at the end of the video. It's clear they are Zonai. However....its not a retcon and this is where people will be and are divided about the game. This game doesn't rewrite canon. This game happens AFTER the events of the timeline as we know it, and we know that because BOTW was stated to be 10s of thousands of years after the last entry in each timeline split. The God's descended down to Hyrule, mimicking the way the golden goddesses did, but the Zonai remained and overtook the lands due to their immeasurable power and wisdom, hence why their carvings are of dragons and Owls predominantly. The whole land was possibly created anew on top of the ashes of the Old world, or the depths. But this doesn't mean the events of the timeline never happened, just that history repeats itself in this world, which should be no surprise.
@@nickmarshall6895 so the enormously long hair and zonai ears aren’t enough for you? What else do you think they would be, because they certainly aren’t hylian.
13:40 he gave this secret stones after ganondorf got secret stone and when he got it he was able to create whole army realy easy so rauru didn't wanted this to happen again, it's even mensioned that secret stone's greatly increase efectivenes of abillites
Yeah he gave the stones to this batch of sages however, I find it hard to believe that they didn't know the ramifications of the stones and draconification given that Mineru was researching it, therefore they may well have tested it on other zonai prior.
What if the three elemental dragons were actually Raura and Minaru's family. They forbid dragonfication even though they used it for whatever reason. Minaru knew, but Rauru didn't because he was too young. Rauru hid the stone out of tradition told to him by Minaru. Rauru made seemingly bad decisions, but based on what he knew from Zelda, he failed regardless of what they'd do. From Zeldas prospective they were already shadows of the past. His only decision was to try to change the past and possibly mess it up worse or play the long game and provide the future with the tools to win.
Its a really interesting idea. I actually flirted with the idea of Rauru and Sonia having had three children before the time of TOTK, and this is where the dragons mystery ends so to speak as the offspring are alive, just in the air. Then I realised that wasnt going to work as then a dragon has to have a child with a Hylian, so I soon gave up on that!
@heylistengaming I didn't think of Rauru and Sonia's children, but that would be interesting. I was thinking more like a father, a mother, and an older sibling or uncle/aunt. Then I liked the idea of them being female family members to reflect the Golden Goddesses; like a grandmother, a mother, and an older sister. But I couldn't make up my mind and just wrote "family".
I’m hoping for dlc or a third game we can revert the dragons to who they once were and meet them. Not to mention they also go into the depths as if they remember living there. The main question is how did Ganondorf know about draconfication?
That would be absolutely bad ass. Love that idea. Yeahhh...I have no idea either, but maybe I need to go back through and have a look to see if there's any kind of hint that can turn it into a video. Problem is though, it appears to be a wheres kass kind of question!
I think that the reason that the Light Dragon still had a part of Zelda’s consciousness was because she had the Master Sword embedded in her head for so long, a part of Link’s soul.
This is a solid idea apart from the memories therefore wouldn't be Zeldas, and neither would the consciousness. Its established the sword is likely Fi. Also doesnt explain Zeldas actions after the sword is pulled from her head, as the embuement of the swords influence would be lost as the story states explicitly that the art of dragonification means to lose oneself, so if there's an effect that stops that, the moment the effect stops, it should either gradually or immediately end.
Yep, I did miss them in this video though I think I've covered well enough what I think the dragons are based on what I think Farosh, Dinraal and Naydra are.
I think you are mistaken presuming the dragons were Sages at all... That is to say, they were all Zonai, but Mineru and Rauru were the last stated in game to be on Hyrule, they stated there were others who continued to exist in the sky at that time but never discussed the form they existed in, easily they could have draconified afterwards or long before, Leviathans are something entirely different though, the bone structure is not the same, they are not immortal, and they give birth/breed. If I had to guess I would Say that the 3 immortal dragons, just like Zelda, follow a geas or overriding will just like Zelda did as a holder of the master sword. Recall her words, "you must find me" are likely the only thing she needed Link to know so he would receive her empowered sword, she had 1 job, to deliver that sword repaired to him, the other 3 likely had a similar event or spent their will on devotion to their goddess and linking her to the mortal plane.
I think they will have been sages to some degree because Rauru is the holder of the stones and he gives them to those he most trusts, evidently in the cutscene where Rauru gives the stones to the elemental sages. However, it is true that the last zonai were those left in the game as we know or, Mineru and Rauru. This doesn't mean though that the current sages were those involved, but rather sages that were originally Zonai , similar to that of the first hero.
@@heylistengamingyou’re assuming that Rauru was the sole keeper of the stones in an entire race that we haven’t seen outside of him and Sonia though, for all we know he inherited their safe guarding when the rest of the zonai either died or disappeared. You’re also assuming that Sages were the only ones to have them at all. There’s still too much we really don’t know about the Zonai to be able to make a definitive judgement like that
At this current point it's not an assumption. He and Mineru are the only two Zonai left standing. He is the only one with the arm that can open the door prior to the lotus of secret stones. Therefore he's the only one that can open it as it stands and therefore he is the sole keeper. In the past - yeah, I can't say for certain, but fact remains that the stones in this iteration as a bare minimum were given to those closest and most trusted by Rauru - and in all truth, this was likely always the way as the generations of the Zonai would have had leaders - as pointed out by a fellow commenter. These leaders would not have entrusted the stones to just anyone, so therefore would have always been trusted. Whether or not it's Mineru or Rauru that tested the Dragonification on others remains to be seen, it could well have been the previous generations of Zonai, but fact does remain that Rauru knew a lot more of this than he stated, and he led Zelda to dragonify (I guess would be the word), via his supposed lack of knowledge followed by blind faith. I agree though, we need more information about the Zonai and only hope we get something to help fill this void a little.
I have a few points I would like to cover... 1 - I believe the 3 dragons were early members of the Zonai race, and because they showed no peronality, desires, or concious thoughts. They just fly by their springs, protecting them over the eons. Its because of this, which why it became a forbidden act. The remaining Zonai believe they lose who they are is because thats all they see.... However I think the protection of the Springs was the last desire for all of them, which became the only goal for the dragons. This is displayed for the Light and Demon dragons - Zelda's last wish was to help Link amd get hom the mastersword. Ganondorf's last wish was the destruction of Link and Hyrule. These desires are mirrored in their dragon forms. 2 - the gender of the dragons! In BotW I believed Naydra was female and the others were male. Since playing TotK I still want to say the same, but in truth I don't think it matters. Maybe its been so long that it doesn't matter, we have no records of their lives, so how would their gender matter? If the player want to see them as all male, all female, or a mixture of the two thats fine. 3 - the clothing of the springs. I believe they were crafted by the first generation of priest(ess)es after the dragonification process. They were baded on the features and elements of the dragons. Those who took over at the springs as guardian (those who wore the clothes) could have been male or female - though, rhe Charged Set could be scandalous. Why do they have the elemental enhancements... that's so they can be more powerful while they were in the dragons presence.
Hey, firstly thank you very much for the thought out comment, it's always very humbling having people spend considerable time to reply on things like this. I'd also like to state any opinion I have at the state of THIS video, were around 6 months ago and after doing better research, my opinion has changed and I'll be covering this really soon in a video. To answer your points: 1. I actually agree that the dragons could well have been early members of the Zonai - there will be a LOT more on this soon. Tying the dragons to the springs is a clever idea though and makes sense. I quite like the idea of them being tied to last wishes as it were, dragons in mythology are often tied to wishes so that works nicely. 2. I've actually taken footage of the dragons better than I had before, and I concur, Naydra is female. The other two are female. It doesn't per say matter too much other than shedding some light on the people that became the dragons. 3. Definitely an interesting idea with the clothing, and clearly the charged set was designed to be so that the wearer could be more powerful in the presence of the dragon, I'm not sure I could dispute it if I tried given where the clothing is found, the heavy depiction on dragons in the area and the fact the set LOOKS like Farosh.
If the three elemental dragons are Zonai, why don't they have the third eye that Mineru and Rauru have? everyone seems to ignore the Zonai's most distinguishing anatomical feature when arguing that the dragons were Zonai
I'm seeing this a little today and you know? I'm not sure I actually have an answer as I'm wondering it myself. They take on every other trait of the zonai though, and perhaps they don't take on every trait , but the third eye seems like a pretty big oversight. No pun intended. My feeling is that not all zonai have the third eye, only those in a certain bloodline, hence why Mineru and Rauru have it but the ancient hero's aspect is missing it and just has a gemstone in the middle of his head.
It could well be. The only thing here that makes me doubt that is Raurus reference to himself as the first king of hyrule, indicating that either the zonai didn't know about - or erased all previous history of monarchy in Hyrule.
@@heylistengaming Rauru is the first king of his Hyrule. But previous Hyrule's existed. I suspect that BOTW and TOTK, including the past, exist at the end of all other Zelda's. For example the past in TOTK is the future for OOT/WW/TP etc.
I'm only about 8 minutes in but it seems as if you think the secret stone Zelda got was originally Sonias, when it isn't, The stone she ends up with is Raurus stone it fell towards her as if that was the plan to make sure she traveled to the past, his arm lets go of Ganondorf and drops the stone as soon as it sensed Link and Zelda were there, It didn't seem like "happenstance"
No, I state that she has the stone of time because Sonia mentions that the stones amplify power and while Zelda Is a mix of light and time, her power leans more towards powers of time. I am aware that she gets Raurus stone and Sonias stone is firmly lodged in ganondorfs head. I mentioned happenstance because that is how it seems. An act of convenience. But yeah you're right. It clearly was all planned by our wise old owl, Rauru....which only....exacerbates my theory....
@@heylistengaming Okay I misunderstood . I thought you were saying somehow she ended up with Sonias, But yes I agree that Rauru knew more than he let on, Your theory makes sense.
@@DustinFerriss oh no, it's nothing to apologise over. I love the fact that these games get people talking over things like this. The comments have been insane with reactions and amazing ideas. I could perhaps of written that line a little clearer. These are things I'm still trying to get a handle on and will only improve upon as time goes on, I'm sure. Thanks a lot man :) yeah I cant see how he didn't know more than he let on. I feel even like if he really needed to, or perhaps he did because he knew they would lose the fight against Ganondorf, that Sonia pulled a dr strange and saw every eventuality which is why Rauru knew he had to have Zelda come to his timeline. There was only 1 way everyone didn't die and everything wasn't destroyed.
@@heylistengaming btw you earned a subscriber with this video! got my notifications on and checking out some of your old videos. Its awesome hearing what others notice in games/movies that others don't. Especially because it can lead to noticing even more stuff that was missed, as you said, games like this get people talking, but videos like this get people thinking!
The next assumption that the 3 dragons were sages/ representatives of the races of the lands of hyrule. Being a goron, gerudo, and zora is also incorrect, as they are not linked tk the races because of their elemental affinities. They are linked to the 3 springs of power, wisdom, and courage. They are the "guardian's of the springs" and have no affiliation to the races of ancient hyrule. Granted the idea of "Sage of fire, becomes dragon of fire" does make sense, and a connection to 2 sages, being fire and lightning. Is valid. But we have a sage of water, not the ice dragon. Sure there is a slant comparison from water to ice. But its not perfect. So the assumption that there was a rumor from the gerudo that the stones would give the consumer imortality is very backwards. The lore implication is that the secret stones were reserved for the zoni. And that rauru marrying Sonia was the first secret stone tk be given tk a non zoni mortal. And the emergency of Gannon rising and stealing Sonia's secret sage stone. Gave rise to Rauru giving the secret stones to representatives of the other non zoni races making new sages. But there is nothing in the lore to support the opposite theory. That the zoni slways would choose sages from the other races. As in the game. We litterally see that the remaining 4 secret sage stones are housed in storage. With no owners. Unlike the continued holding off in a test of worthyness from the original sages, waitinb for the new sages tk claim the secret stones.
On this one, I was going through possibilities and the first one was that it would have been the representatives from the possible races, but by the end I come to the realisation that due to appearance of the dragons, they simply have to be Zonai. I agree, they're not the races at all, it was a possibility until you actually look at the dragons.
Rauru literally can't be the king/authority that outlawed/made taboo the consumption of secret stones, thus committing the act of Draconification. As Mineru treats the story of Draconification as something long forgotten and she only knows about it because she is a scholar. Rauru sat right there during her explanation and let her go on, not once hinting that he too knew of the effect. No, the 3 guardian of the springs dragons are ancient. Even to Rauru and mineru. And the Zoni might live for a while, but they are only considered gods by less informed races. (any technology, if sufficiently advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic) The Zoni were heralded as gods for descending from the heavens. But they were very mortal creatures. The outlier to "living" so long was Mineru. As she was the sage of spirits. And after her body perished. She housed herself in the Purrah pad for tens of thousands of years. Only to reveal herself when link reached the construct head in the storm sky islands. I imagine that the concept to the Zoni about Draconification is a similar comparison to. "The pyramids are more ancient to Cleopatra, than Cleopatra is to us in modern times"
On the note of Rauru not knowing - I struggle to believe this and realise that Rauru could, with his wisdom - because everyone is writing this off because of his action of an impetuous young Zonai, yet he wields a third eye, which is generally thought in many belief structures IRL to be an all seeing eye, and the fact that he is likely a deep descendent of a God of wisdom, hence the name Rauru, and the Zonai are seen as God's by many including the current Zonai, hence Minerus description of them in her memory. I have 0 doubts that at some point in the formation of the world as they know it now, the Zonai were God's, or had Godlike power, possibly passed down by the triforce meaning that there would have been 3 - one to represent power, wisdom and courage and these traits while diminished as years have gone on, pass down the line. Rauru has either seen a lot of the events play out already as he seems to know every consequence to his.action before he gets there and understands Link and the master sword are truly the only hope which is why he explains so in detail to Ganondorf and tells Zelda that the Knight may be their last defence - because he already knows this to be true. I see Rauru as more manipulative to his own cause than anything, he steers Zelda down the path of draconification, quite clearly. How long the Zonai live - their mortality - where they went - all of this is a mystery for another day. As we know they disappeared suddenly, we can almost guarantee it wasn't death that came to them all, rather an exodus occurred, or they got trapped under the world, in the depths which maybe explains why there's a constrict factory underground and statues built everywhere as effigies to the races of Hyrule. No, they're not immortal God's, but they did not just simply die out via a lack of breeding or an act of war. We know this already from BOTW.
@@heylistengaming you seem to view Rauru as an all knowing and manipulative master. When, if using Occam's Razor. (everything being equal, the simplest answer is usually correct) that Rauru was a king that underestimated everything. Do you for one second believe that he forsaw his wife dieing and chose to let it happen. Instead of just underestimating how far Gannondorf would go to accomplish his goals. (If he forsaw anything he would have prevented Sonia's death and prevented Gannondorfs rise.) He didn't lead Zelda down the line of Draconification being the only answer. That requires there to have actually been other possibilities that he hid from her. What we witnessed in the game, was known theatrically as Chekov's Gun. Where in, a plot point was introduced, and if not used by the 3rd act of the story was irrelevant and not needed to be included. Rauru having a third eye is a mutation, one that he even might have pushed the other Zoni to put him in a position of power like guarding the dragon guardians of the springs). Mineru too has a third eye hers just is never shown to open in the game. And as they are the only 2 examples of Zoni people we have seen. Means they are the example of comparison for all Zoni. The only other people we think are Zoni, are the 3 guardian dragons who don't have 3 eyes. But who is to say that the Draconification didn't remove an eye. After all none of Zelda, gannondorf, or the 2 Zoni we see of Mineru or Rauru have horns. But the dragons do. But not once does the history state Rauru was a king among the Zoni people. He descended from the heavens. And the Hylians worshiped him as a god. He took a Hylians bride and decided to found a kingdom. He became a self declared king. He wasn't born with a royal lineage. Because Mineru is not a princess or a queen. Which she would be if they were royals before. No she is a scholar. On the opposite side. Gannondorf, the only male Gerudo, born a king. Refuted Rauru's rule, and wanted to claim his throne for himself.
@@ancientbaltoy8769 I try to put in a couple warnings throughout and make sure people are aware of there being spoilers. But this channel has been predominantly made from spoiler material and if I'm honest, I think many people here are wanting to talk end game content now. I apologise to anyone who has had things ruined by my out of place spoilers 😅
By the time I get to the "end game" section, I actually end up stating this clearly. I went away from them being champions or elemental sages based on appearance.
I dunno. I think rauru sealed Ganon not for the CHANCE to beat ganondorf, but because Zelda went back in the past he KNEW link would be able to take him down I also hesitate to say that failure means you suck at your job. He did the best he could with the tools he has
Yeah he did, in which case it makes it even worse as Rauru KNEW before she turned into a dragon that his casual manipulation of the knowledge of dragonification passed around by he and Mineru, would work and Zelda would see zero choice but to turn into a dragon - which is then compounded by the fact that he knows and understands a reversal process for Dragonification. Did he really do the best he could? All of his sages were not just bested, but killed in battle- we see this because aetherial forms talk to the new sages throughout the game. He went to war to avenge Sonia, and attempt to save Hyrule, and all but Mineru, including him, paid the price. He manipulated Zelda with the knowledge of dragonification and what it would mean for her, and then led his people to war in order to fully facilitate her losing everything - again- so that she then followed through on becoming a dragon to get the sword to Link. He did not employ significant security detail despite guards being stationed outside.of the pagoda where Zelda and Sonia talk, yet there are none in his castle grounds to help protect Zelda and/Sonia. Sonia is killed as a result of this and where is Rauru during all of this? The tools he has - a light to banish evil. Literally what is said. So why not act AS the security detail and literally protect your queen? Before this point, Ganondorfs power is miniscule in comparison to when he gets the secret stone. They already suspect Ganondorf will strike btw, it wasn't that unexpected, as they had worked out fake Zelda was an imposter and they all claimed they didn't trust Ganondorfs show of fealty. He's not a great leader at all. He's impetuous, he's brash and has an arrogance about him that believes nothing will go wrong - unless he plans for it to do so.
@@heylistengaming It’s a fun discussion. I’m also not saying you’re necessarily wrong. But hindsight is 20/20. It’s easy to tear a mistake apart after the fact, especially when you make a ton of assumptions that are not discussed in the story. Not to mention that this cycle is the cycle of our story as you mention. No matter what, ganon will be on the verge of destroying the world and we will have to rely on our hero and princess to save it. My main point here though, would be to be wary of calling someone a failure simply for not succeeding. It’s always easy to see why you failed when looking back on your mistakes.
This is why I make these videos, in all truth, the discussion that comes off of them. I see what you mean in terms of branding him a failure, and noted, however, I still see that he made a lot of mistakes and possibly even led his people down certain paths to make sure a grander plan could be exacted, which would make me question his leadership qualities.
Interesting, but wasn't it said or wrote that Minaru was the zelda of the zonai? I could have sworn she was studying her own people and their history, how do we know it wasn't their ansestors that forbade draconification?
Could well have been, but fact remains that while the ancients forbade it, they still knew a lot more about it than they let on, leading to Rauru executing a chain of events that he knew would result in dragon Zelda and him being able to restore her back to health again.
I think not only are the three Dragons all ancient Zonai, I think those three Zonai were the "Three Golden Goddesses". Zonai were seen as gods. Zonai can turn into dragons. Three dragons named after the three gods. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I've been looking for a way to reply to this one, but maybe the next video will answer it better than a comment can. I'll be going through, relatively, that possibility in the next one!
Yes they can, not denying that, but arguably he had that much power latent in him and the stone just amplified it. Same as the others with their lesser powers.
I wish we had a little more info so I could do a video! I think it's as he's been alive just put into a form of statis as such, perhaps he has been being fed information from Kohga who has been underground also? Something bothers me with Kohga, in that he seems to know Ganondorf was about to be brought back to life also, which makes that exchange very circular.
@@heylistengaming exactly what i think too hopefully the dlc will contain some more "in depth" story line with khoga my take on it is that the ultimate weapon he mentioned after the final fight is actually the draconification itself but who knows!?
I...dont actually remember though it was one of the last things I did in the game. I'm not sure who built them but let's say Rauru is King, the Hylians would have built it under his order still, as king.
@@obaaneaty oooh that's a great connection. It would make sense as yes, the challenges are all centered around the sages, that it would be built to honour them rather than just the Zonai. I actually- as time has gone on and I've looked deeper, no longer think he had the ruins or anything in current Hyrule build and its withstood time because I now believe his Hyrule is in the depths!
" as the first king of a recognized hyrule in this time period" THANK GOD you did not fell for the "TROTK PAST is right after skyward sword / 4th timeline" trap
No way. There's only one way Rauru works as the first king and that is that we are not recognising the events prior as they are tens of thousands of years ago and thus, they are legend and old monarchies are lost to history.
Interesting video, would be good to see a video around the limits of the ethereal presence, it seems as though the king etc in botw disappear after their purpose is fulfilled, with rauru showing up at the end and having large amounts of power, can they return after these events but just choose not to? What governs this purpose?
These are all pretty good questions actually! I guess it would be safe to assume that it is an "after I've fulfilled my purpose" style of thing, similar to how it's thought in many cultures about the paranormal. I would be interested by Mineru though who can separate her body and spirit - can she return when she wants or needs to? May be something I'll look at in the future!
@@heylistengaming did Sonia "go" before the others took their vows? If she didn't take a vow to help the hero or wasnt aware of it, it would be an interesting standout to the others
@@TomInbound I took it as that vow happened after Ganondorf punched her to death in her spine, and this act of war from Rauru to Ganondorf was his retaliation. I dont think she had the chance to make that vow, more than anything.
Rauru eludes to having children, yet they are never seen... or are they? What if the dragons were rauru's children that swallowed the secret stones in some sort of ritual? Maybe they didn't know. Or maybe they were born with no latent powers, so the stones couldn't amplify them, but the stones were sacred, so the swallowed them and then BAM! DRAGONS!
BAM DRAGONS! Might just be my favourite new phrase. I'm unclear on when he references children though as he clearly states he and Mineru are the last Zonai.
@heylistengaming honestly, I just rewatched the cutscenes, and he says "Even if something were to happen to me, both my kingdom and the peace it brings - these will endure for generations to come." Not to mention Zelda herself is a blood relative of Rauru and Sonia, as mentioned by Sonia herself upon first meeting Zelda in the dragon tear memories. They had to have children. Zonai-Hylian hybrid children.
@@striggen594 hmmm yeah I do remember that line and remember wondering how when he and mineru are also referred to as the last of their kind. Also, they have to have had children as its implied in cutscene 2 that Zelda is a descendent of Rauru and Sonia. I feel like we have a little hole we need to try to climb out of here, as there's 2 lots of game script that directly contradict one another. I think you're right though, they have to have had children, even if we don't see them directly.
@heylistengaming so what i'm trying to get at, is, rauru and sonia had kids, probably quite a few. If you were the last of a dying race, wouldn't you? ( especially with sonia ;] ) so what if a couple of them were born with no latent abilities, and to try to force abilities, they swallowed the stones. OR, what if they held slight elemental abilities, and the realm needed eternal watch dogs of some sort. There has to be some connection between the zonai and dragonification.
@@striggen594 there's a connection for sure but I can't see Rauru sacrificing his own children and dragonifying them, I mean if I think he's a liar now, that makes him an outright monster!
I think it's more likely from their wounds than old age. No, in the moment of battle they are not killed but their wounds are great and we see that this is eventually what kills Mineru, or at least its inferred.
Zelda loves to flirt with aliens and ancient tech, the dragons could all be zonai scientists who used technologies to create the known world and who's story then became that of Gods. Ganondorf makes it clear that at least the gerudo in his time know that zonai are not gods, but that could be long after or long before everything else.
We know that at least when they came to Hyrule to begin with that they had the power of the God's but that could be a legend passed down through the Zonai lines, as most Zelda games contain. But yes, Ganondorf does state they're mot God's, but him saying that could he his blind faith in himself and his absolute power. Interesting ideas though!
@@heylistengaming I actually hope we get dlc with more distant past info, obviously Zelda, sonia, and ganondorf knows they aren't all that exceptional, but at what point do the average hylian stop considering them as heaven sent?
all i'm heading is 3rd game = restore the dragons, insert other filler here, have them create / restore the triforce or something to that effect (feels a bit like a 3d link to the past remake lol)
Could well be. I personally think as we've leaned into it but not explored it fully yet that the next game tells the story of the first Calamity fully and acts as a pre-prequel
@@heylistengaming only thing is how do they flesh that out, it feels like it would be a smaller map (no sky / underground etc). or do they actually do a time thing now zeldas back? go in to the past to see whats going on, get stuck in the past for a while, when you build up stats etc you're back in your own time line, then be able to jump back and forward at will. maybe play as zelda for a while as people seem keen on that :S so its both a pre-prequel and an ending to the current story
"instead of reversing the effect of dragonifacation, they rendered it down to nothing but bone". I'm a little surprised that you didn't mention the 'Dark Skeletons' right after saying that. Those skeletons are long and slim, much like the dragons we see in-game.
The truth is there was a little more in the script but I went on the wrong lines of the Zonai dragon at the base of the Thunderhead but that's made of stone, so cut it out. However, yes, there are the skeletons in the depths also, and these almost go to show to some degree that something mustve happened to these dragons as we've already been told they are immortal. Makes sense that they tried to reverse the effect of Dragonification but failed, thus killing the dragon.
I mean, considering Rauru plays dumb the entire time you are competing the Graat Sky Island, I’m not surprised one bit. The dude is a master at playing dumb. 😂
Rauru lied, people died. Either he lied or it's just a really bad plot hole, not sure which one I like better. There's the 3 dark dragon skeletons in the depths, not sure what the "dark" implies but maybe those were the tests for the goddess dragons that went awry for some reason.
So Nintendo have habits of deliberately leaving giant holes that players of the game can leave up in interpretation. I feel this is one of those. Rauru isn't squeaky clean. He lied and like you said, people died as a result. People were dying early on into his reign, starting with whatever dragons are in the land. The 3 in the depths are an interesting extra support for this, they were likely aware of the effect that eating the stones cause draconification, so it would make more sense for them to try hard to learn how to "cure" it. The dragons down in the depths could well be their attempts with no vessel of courage (link), so to speak.
Thanks for the reply, awesome video btw! Just had a thought that if the dragons became immortal, how can there be skeletons? Maybe they did figure out how to reverse draconification and the skeletons are the remains of the husks left over after purification. How else would they know how to reverse Zelda without testing, more like trial and error it seems like. There are also the 3 dragon skeletons on the surface as well, so maybe there were 2 or even more "tests" before the goddess dragons that we see today. The in game location dragon bone mire doesn't have a skeleton but assumingly has dragon bones that are used by enemies for weapons so that's another possible "test" draconification, perhaps the first as it doesn't have 2 other counterparts like the others.
No probs, I like making these videos because they illicit conversation and debate. I think that the dragons in the depths are there as failed tests for the healing process of dragonification. How do we know that these didnt have secret stones that were destroyed somehow, like Ganondorf's at the end of the game? How do we know that these stones dont live in a constant flux of regeneration - afterall, nothing to do with this has ever been explained yet there are only 7 positions inside of the lotus flower for the stones, and we've seen that with the 3 dragons roaming the sky, there should be the 7 from the sages, rauru and Sonia, and 3 from Farosh, Naydra and Dinraal, so in reality we have 10 stones floating around. Zelda's time travel with the stones gives it credence that the stones moved forward in time with the 3 dragons, yet the sages all have theirs also. It could well be that the dragons in the depths all had their secret stones shattered as a part of trying to reverse the process, and as we've seen with the big bad, that just ends the life of the dragon.
Cool ideas! I have some other thoughts if you'll entertain them. I've seen some theories say they are previous dragons in the series, namely Levias, The Wind Fish, and The Ocean King. But what if instead they were the goddess dragons who were created from individuals lacking in whatever is needed to create a stable dragon, whether that be a not fully attuned spirit, bad intent, or other malady. I think the leviathan bones may have been the goddess dragons but ending up being misplaced on their path around Hyrule compared to what we see in BotW and TokT and succumbing to their opposite respective element. Botw mentions this in the leviathan bones quest saying that they died from a drought, blizzard, and volcano eruption. Dinraal got trapped in a Hebra blizzard and froze, and Nayda got trapped around death mountain and burned perhaps due to a volcanic eruption. Farosh is the hardest to explain as they are seen in both games around the Gerudo region, but the skeleton is found in the deepest part of the desert near the end of the map. Maybe it got lost in a sandstorm and couldn't get out then succumbed to the combination of the desert heat, cold, and constant sand.
We've seen no sign of twinrova in over 10000 years apparently, I think they're pretty done in the Zelda universe. I want my oracle's remake before a sequel to them!
@@0malleyAlleyc4t I dunno man. I'd love to see them again, I really would, but I dont see it. They're iconic, but isn't it also now time that maybe they created some new iconic enemies?
Hahaha noooooo, In typical Nintendo style, they just chose to omit a lot. I think he's more complex than the game let's on. Besides, if I treated everything like a plot device, I'd never have anything to make videos about!
@@heylistengaming no yeah I mean, that's how zelda theorizing goes. I love everything this video covers but I wish more of it was actually shown ON SCREEN. Rauru seems like he has two completely different versions - how we see him in cut scenes vs. what we can infer. I wish they weren't so different from each other.
Oh for sure I wish the same, that we see more of the other side of Rauru instead of the innocent, "I know nothing" goody two shoes he seems to.portray. I wish there was more for sure.
Is sort of my thought too but not necessarily ancient, more just that they were around in Raurus era, in a peaceful time of research and experimentation.
A lot of people believe that the Zonai went extinct, but I think they might have gone beyond the sky and towards the stars. I personally think the Zonai are aliens that descended onto the planet after the Goddesses created the universe. They could have served Hylia along side of the Sheikah. I also think the Sheikah came with them from the stars.
This is definitely an interesting idea for sure. There's something definitely alien about them but I'm not sure they just reascended to the heavens....though it is strange that they all apparently just disappeared (script written in BOTW).
This game is only 2 months old some of us actually want to learn for ourselves what the final boss looks like, you used the worst background footage possible for the time you uploaded it at
I also prewarned everyone...3 times I think. Once in a poll, asking where everyone was in the game. Once at the very start of the video. Once at the very spoilerish section. If after those warnings, people who haven't finished the game still watch, I can't be responsible. There comes a point where if someone hasn't finished the game and they watch a very spoilery video that tells them it will have spoilers, they should expect end game content, especially when one of the chapters is literally named - the endgame.
It was relevant. Every single thing I speak about I bring relevancy back to with the video. This is a part of my editing process. I'm sorry it for spoiled for you.
@@heylistengaming aside from the fact that you were speaking of draconification, there is no connection in the first half of the video. (I stopped watching after that point because it was repeatedly shown) You could very easily have used the dozen or so other draconification related clips and memories, but now I know exactly what happens in the final boss.
As far as I was aware, I clearly stated at the start of the video that it contains spoilers. That meant it was open from moment 1. There are a lot of clips of dragonification but bare in mind there are only 2 characters that dragonify throughout so clip selection is minimal. I, again, am sorry for you if you have had that moment spoiled. It was marked for spoilers, I can't do much more than that.
I wouldn't say he knew all along on Draconification or how to reverse its effects. Afterall he does state that his older sister knew more than he did on their people, Rauru is what you would call aloof in thoughts, while he serves as the King of Hyrule, he was not always up doing his duties as described in the 13 chamberlain tablets, and often preferred goofing around and fishing. However he would not shy away from his responsibilities as king when needed. Mineru however is more acquainted with archeology and technology, much like how Zelda is, and extensively researched the history of her people, in fact her quarters within Rauru's castle shows she has shelves upon shelves of books and literatures that details the entire history of the Zonai, and one subject she extensively researched just happened to be Draconification and its effects and why it was forbidden to perform the act. -- There are still untold stories and mysteries that surrounds the Zonai and why they appeared and held Secret Stones of power. One theory suggests they were looking for people worthy of wielding the Secret Stones to protect them from misuse, but it could only be granted to those who already had magic power of their own that they could use, so not just anybody could take and use a Secret Stone, since the stones themselves doesn't grant them powers, it amplifies the power they already have within themselves. Counterpoint to why Rauru took Zelda to see Mineru, he was unsure how Zelda could return to her own timeline, seeing as she unknowingly used her own power with the Secret Stone to send herself back in time. For Rauru, he thought about Mineru to see if she knew how to use the stone to get back to her own time, since she apparently knows more about the Secret Stones abilities than Rauru, despite having one himself and has the ability of Light Powers. In Rauru's mind he thought maybe there was a way to manipulate the stone to get Zelda home as she had both powers of Time and Light, with her Light Powers being the most strongest of her abilities. However Zelda spending time with Sonia she learns how to control time on objects and returning them to their previous point in time, as Sonia demonstrated during their time sitting out in the garden drinking tea, and again later when the Fake Zelda shows up, Zelda using her own abilities this time to manipulate objects. Would I consider Rauru wise? Yes to an extent, however it was his hubris _(his words)_ that set them on the path of what transpired or would transpire. While he understood Ganondorf has ulterior motives and was evil, he lacked the foresight to know his true intentions when it was clear that he had sights on the Secret Stones after witnessing its powers when Rauru stuck down the school of Molduga's approaching the Great Plateau, Ganondorf only pleaded fealty to Rauru to get closer to the Secret Stones, also for Rauru to say to Zelda that the timeline she came from probably isn't one where they met originally, but I would say that was a bit of a lie there, because Zelda wouldn't have gotten ahold of a Secret Stone if it wasn't for the arm of Rauru sealing Ganondorf in place. It's a pivotal point in time, an event that will always happen regardless of what transpired, but I guess Zelda failed to mention the fact how she got the Secret Stone in the first place, and how the mummified Ganondorf knew Zelda's name, and Link's name also. Ganondorf also specifically mentions Rauru in their first encounter, that there hadn't made sense, not only Zelda failing to tell Rauru beforehand after meeting for the first time, but it wasn't until later after Sonia's passing that she mentions the man she saw in her future timeline was the sealed Ganondorf, why she fails to mention anything until this point makes me wonder how Zelda even forgot in the first place. She was always meant to meet Rauru after being sent back in time, and while she could of told the critical details of what she encountered in the future could have somewhat shifted how things played out, and they did... sorta... the hand of Rauru saves Link of course, and Shrines of Light suddenly appeared, along with the Sky Islands and with it Gloom and Chasms across the lands, everything appeared as if out of nowhere the moment Zelda was sent back in time and Hyrule Castle was raised into the sky, which means this was meant to happen all along. Shrines of Light to purge and seal the evil from Link after his first encounter with Ganondorf and gloom. As for how much time has passed during the time Zelda disappears and Link disappears and reappears in the sky on a massive island, it's hard to say how much time has passed since, it could be more than a week or two had passed as search parties were sent out after Hyrule Castle was raised into the sky, everybody was on lookout for Zelda and Link and even had posters handed out to various places.
Alright, I think I can finally actually prove my point on Rauru knowing and understanding his powers a lot more, and the sages powers, a lot more than is implied in the final few scenes of the game. --> He doesnt know for sure that this will work, especially with Sonia's power over Mineru's. --> He actually trials it when the Molduga are ordered to attack, causing the kamehameha wave. Now it's not known whether or not he ACTUALLY knows that you can channel more power into it or not at this point, via the use of other sages and stones, and this defence of his seems like he actually planned it, judging by how he just understands thats what he needs to do. --> The game therefore lays the groundwork in telling us that this is how he will solve Zelda being turned into a dragon. --> With THIS knowledge at his fingertips, the knowledge that he can amplify both sets of powers - his and whomever he uses to fuse powers with as such, he actually tells Zelda, in effect, that her position in that world is to turn into a dragon to get the master sword back to Link. Rauru planned it all along.
Rauru didn't get the sages killed. After he sealed Ganon, they went back to their tribes where Zelda met with them and convinced them to protect the stones to pass down to the future sages.
See this is where the power of interpretation comes in. I interpreted all of those segments with Zelda as mif way points - IE, they already had the stones, and as far as I'm aware had not returned them. Zelda actually went to lobby to the leaders for their help in the coming war, is how I saw those.
So the timeline of events as I saw it in game was:
- Zelda ends up back in Old Hyrule
- Rauru and Sonia find her and take her under their wing, so to speak
- Ganondorf swears fealty
- Zelda is informed about draconification
- Sonia is killed by Ganondorf, giving him immeasurable power
- Rauru plans for war and enlists Zelda, as she now has the only power of time magic to help her, to speak with the sages in order for them to join the war.
- They join the war effort, are given secret stones.
- They lose and are inevitably beaten in battle, and killed - all bar Mineru who survives but her wounds are great.
- Mineru infuses her spirit into the Purah Pad and passes away also, hence why her spirit talks about joining the aetherial realm at the end of the game.
- Zelda becomes a dragon and restores the master sword.
- Link finds Zelda, the Sword and heads into his final battle against an all powerful Ganondorf
If you follow this, then this is why I keep saying the sages are dead and we see Rauru, Sonia and Mineru certainly are and by the time Link reaches the old sages, they have passed too.
The stones, are housed within the temples, not with the aetherial spirits of the sages, and its on touching these that suddenly the spirit of the secret stone is released. In essence, I think it's the other way - the spirit doesn't hold the stone, the stone holds the spirit and why it acts as an amplifier.
@@heylistengaming only thing there is if the sages died in the battle with Ganon, then their stones would have been lost to the Depths? Unless Zelda collected them all and returned them to their people, but then there would have been no need for her to tell them to keep the stones safe for future generations.
@@thegreatescape13 hmm this is very true. I presumed they had been collected by someone, probably Zelda or Mineru. The future generations comment does put a slight hole in that though, unless they were in fact put inside the lotus' in the temples and Zelda was speaking to an aetherial form but they remember it as if they are there in person.
@heylistengaming I assumed the sages passed them on, as past Zelda has the conversation with each of them (or at least I distinctly remember the conversation with the Rito sage) within what would become the temples where Link would discover the stones in the "present".
I dont think the holder of the water secret stone preformed draconification.
i think all three dragon's are zonai because the shape of there ears
Yup, it takes me a little while to get there but by the end of the video I'm 100% convinced of the same. Its not JUST the ears. The eyes, the patterning around the eyes, the snout, the generally wild hairstyle. Im just waiting now for fan art to pop up everywhere of Rauru as a dragon!
I think they are Zonai who sacrificed themselves to become immortal dragons, in order to seal the Triforce away.
I don’t buy into the “Zelda has the Triforce” theory. I think it’s hidden. I think the ancient Zonai had the Triforce but at one point they decided it’s too powerful to remain in the mortal realm, so they broke it into shards and wrought those shards into Secret Stones. One shard each from the individual Triforces was eaten by a Zonai so that the Triforce would be sealed forever.
This theory also gives a compelling reason for why draconification is really forbidden. Because after this strategy was put in place, any additional acts of draconification would weaken the seal and lessen the sacrifice of the ancient Zonai.
@@KittysCat-j7xit literally appears on her hand with none of the three shards faded out. That only ever happens when it resides within someone. They became dragons in order to protect and watch over the springs, hence why they stay in those areas
@@TheCreator1875 I really hope Nintendo didn’t go down this road. It would be a really stupid storytelling device.
if they were zonai, why don't they have the third eye?
The Ancient Hylians worshipped those dragons; I don't think that Rauru made that rule. By the time Zelda reaches the past, that past with the Zonai among the Hylians was already a very old one. PS, those dragons are almost certainly ancient Zonai, minus the ones from Zelda or Ganondorf. They strongly resemble those of the Zonai race...especially those ears; certainly why they look so different from the Light and Demon dragons. As for Mineru, she was very much like Zelda...a scientist by nature.
The other sages were not killed during the Imprisoning war, although Mineru was critically wounded. It was Zelda who came up with her plan after Ganondorf was sealed.
The stonework at the start of the game and Mineru's explanations of the tableaus does explain that the Zonai were almost Gods, who descended from the heavens long before their time, so this I can concur with - but I still feel as though Rauru knew a LOT more than he was letting on and therefore lied to us all based solely on the fact that he claims to know very little yet still knows how to cure Dragonification with zero impact on the character who gets transformed.
Come the end of this video, I worked out that these were Zonai characters. I work my way to it, but yes, these were 100% Zonai, the other 3 dragons. The ears, snout, patterns under the eyes. It all points towards it.
Zelda comes up with the plan, yes, after it is heavily implied by Rauru (telling her that she is in this time for a reason and she must do what she needs to)and Mineru (by explaining the process) , and so in turn, while she decides her fate, it is the words of others that have influenced that decision.
@@heylistengaming
Rauru didn't "know" how to cure Draconification. He lucked out, by using every ounce of sacred bond energy from links new oaths from the sages. Along with both Sonia and Rauru's control over light and time. Probly feeding on all the light energy Zelda was emitting as the light dragon (as we saw that the power that Zelda had was stronger than Rauru and Sonia's combined during the molduga raid)
Rauru's arm, which had Zelda's boosted time power, plus Sonia's control over time powers. And their thousands of years in the afterlife probly culminated as a "lucky present" to return both Zelda and link to their former body states. Thus giving a happy ending.
Not once is it insinuated that Rauru knows more than he is letting on.
Infact he makes a dumb assumption that history will turn out differently for his encounter with Gannondorf because of the statement. "perhaps it will have a different outcome, after all, last time we did this, you came from a history that you never traveled back in time to hell us"
When we can see clues from both the begining of Totk and the middle of BotW that his theory is debunked.
In BotW there is a quest to find the secret 8th heroine statue, that everyone thinks is myth. Low and behold the statue exists to the north west of the dividing mountains of the desert.
The 7 "8" heroine statues represent the 7 sages, and Zelda being the time traveling 8th secret sage.
Meaning that even in BotW we were already playing on the timeline that Zelda always was destined to travel into the past.
The same is true of the beginning of Totk. As it's clearly shown to hide the set in stone history that Zelda was already going to travel to the past, try to help Rauru, fail, then eat the secret stone, become the light dragon and spend tens of thousands of years empowering the master sword.
Also, OBJECTION!!!! I will be the defense of Rauru.
The Defense calls to cross-examine the defendant:
1) There is no evidence stating that Rauru put the stones in the temple because of draconification. We see what Ganondorf did with stone when he got his hands on it. The stones are dangerous without draconification because they augment the powers of the user, good or evil. Thus, they are sealed for that reason. Not draconification. The Sages are given the stones because of Ganondorf possessing a stone. Fight fire with fire. So that accusation is debunked.
•Rauru does not know Zelda would have come to the future. He literally states to Zelda she comes from a timeline where they never meet. Perhaps you could say Rauru of the future knew of Zelda and gave the stone that way, but that can’t be held against past Rauru, who has no clue of Zelda’s fate and actively thought she came from a time where it all happens because she is absent from the past.
•Rauru is wise? I think not. I present to you this evidence:
Rauru has been characterized as preferring to go out hunting over his kingly duties and a lot of the good done to Hyrule was done with Sonia. Rauru is not wise. He is a little brother and young man (debatably). A himbo. The man thought it was a good idea to keep Ganondorf close to keep an eye on him, despite the fact that there is no way for Rauru to watch Ganondorf 24/7. The man is not wise. He is an idiot. A lovable one, but still an idiot.
•He is entrusting the Sages who pledge themselves to him because he is the king of Hyrule, having all swear fealty to him. This accusation of known draconification because the Sages pledged themselves to him is not sound. The stones were given after Ganondorf stole a stone of his own. They belong to Rauru, so of course he is gonna only entrust those he knows will have his back in the coming battle against a mad man who stole power from his beloved. If Rauru gave the Sages stones prior to Ganondorf’s rise to power, I could see your point. But it is lost of the simple crucial mechanics introduced to us by Mineru of how the stones work first and foremost:
They augment your existing powers. Thereby, making them potentially dangerous without factoring draconification. That is why he gives the stones after Ganondorf steals a stone. He is not gonna entrust more mad men with ultimate power.
Based on the compiling evidence, I pronounce Rauru innocent of all charges on the account that he is not wise but acts like a young adult who would rather ditch important kingly duties for recreation like hunting, he constantly states wrong information without prompt as if he truly had none of the facts, and he is in fact just outright impulsive. Like a true younger brother in the prime of his life would act. The court rests.
You know, I can't even respond to this without smiling an awful lot. This is great work as a comment response, thank you!
1) The evidence of Rauru putting the stones into the lotus is evident by the fact that only he is able to open and close the lotus flower via his "arm of light" so to speak. He is the only one with any access, so either they belonged there to begin with and he was given divine passage to the stones in order to give them out to the right people of the kingdom, or he placed them there to begin with.
The powers being augmented is a valid reason to hide the stones away, or would be if the powers weren't so...pathetic. Those powers, even when amplified are not dangerous, and are more defensive than anything - Riju's being the only noteable exception.
Okay onto meeting Zelda - no, Rauru and Zelda never met in that timeline, however they also did. See, they met via Raurus arm, which has a power all of its own, and while Zelda and he never met formally, they met for a brief second as Rauru rescued Zelda and watched her fall into the abyss while her stone shined and transported her back to his time.
Rauru has always been and will always be, the character that is most characterised by wiseness. He has always been represented by the owl, and this has been the case through many of the entries of the Zelda series. Yes, this is a different Rauru from a different time, and yes...unfortunately, he is an utterly loveable idiot, this the court upholds.
Your argument contracts itself in that you say Rauru did not place them in the Lotus, yet the stones belong entirely to him. One cannot be without the other.
So the argument here becomes whether or not Rauru is impetuous, reckless and stupid and led his people to death or ultimately lied to everyone about the true notion of draconification - and your argument does not help explain away the simple fact that he and sonia both understood how to return someone from that dragon state, without killing them. This can only happen via either research and then trial and error, or an innate knowledge that they had to begin with.
Absolutely wonderful comment though, helps to remind me of why I do this :) Thank you
@@heylistengaming
Objection!
Rauru is the King of Hyrule, not the King of the Zonai.
The Zonai civilization was the one that forbade the act and it was already gone from the surface when Rauru and Mineru came. Mineru was mentioning the act that was forbiden by their ancestors not by Rauru.
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Ganondork himself mentions that there were more zonai before, but only Rauru and Mineru now stay in the surface.
.
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Also, it's prety much implied that the dragons still keep their motivations, their motivation to become dragons. It's not like they're still sentient, but that they still try to follow their purpose for turning into a dragon.
The elemental dragons are servants and protectors of the springs which would be impossible had they lost everything of their minds.
Zelda Became a Dragon to help link defeat the demon king and return the master sword to him, and that's what the light dragon does.
Ganondorf became one the kill link and plung the world into darkness, and the demon dragon acts with this purpose.
@@heylistengamingwe really don’t know that they *did* know how to though. All we really know from that cutscene is that Force ghost Rauru and Force ghost Sonia clearly use an amplified recall by channeling their power through all 5 of Link’s stones that he acquires throughout the game. Also did the Goddesses of old not keep the Triforce hidden away for the very reason you are calling Rauru an idiot and a liar for? All three pieces grant the beholder a wish yes, but individually what do they actually amplify? Wisdom, not a particularly strong power though not useless, Courage, the power to continue to fight even in the face of fear or destruction, and Power. We’ve seen multiple times now through Ganondorf what the triforce of Power can do to a man. So why would the Rauru take the risk of keeping the stones out in the open?
It gets stated, I believe, by Mineru at the very end that they used both their light and time power and channelled it through Link in order to use him as an amplifier of sorts. Its with his power that they're able to achieve this, and would not have been able to before hand. Sorry, but with the fate of Zelda on the line, they would just take a shot in the dark and hope that it would work? I can't see that. It is a presumption, yes, but I cant see that they wouldnt outright KNOW it would work.
I didnt call Rauru an idiot for hiding amplifiers, and in fact its the wrong word entirely. Rauru knew and understood the damage the stones, in the wrong hands could do. He knew hiding them away was correct, and it was. I have no objection there. Understanding ramification is smart and understandable. The issue that I have with Rauru isn't that he's an idiot, per say, I think that he is more calculated than we give credence to, and that he understood by giving his sages the stones, they would all go to war for him though they stood no chance in the battle, because the point was ALWAYS to lose, to seal Ganondorf away and martyr himself, and with that, take the last of the good that Zelda had in this new world - a world that she had just joined after being ripped from her own world, away from the person she loves the most, where her family had all died and she considered herself to be a failure (See BOTW).
Rauru should hide the stones away, absolutely, and like I said, I admit idiot is the wrong terminology. (I got wrapped up answering the comment above, and I still find Rauru loveable even if he's more calculated than first thought.)
Yeah he went so hard for Rauru being secretly evil I'm kinda surprised he didn't call him out for turning Zelda human again hundreds of miles in the sky making them both crash back to Hyrule lol
Except...Raru and his sister aren't the only two Zoani to never have existed so it was probably forbidden BEFORE him by a different leader and yes, he probably had no idea why.
Why WOULD he allow such power to be accessible to anyone else? We saw what can happen if it falls into the wrong hands.
Yep, I acknowledge the fact that they're not the only 2 to have ever existed and it was likely forbidden before their time - however, let's say that IS the case, it doesnt stop the fact that he knows FAR more than he lets on, and understands that Zelda NEEDS to undertake the transformation.
He hasn't seen it fall into the wrong hands, and tbh the powers of the secret stones are minimal. They amplify already latent powers by the seems of things. The issue is the swallowing of the stone, but Ganondorf by all right SHOULDN'T know about this?
You are right that Rauru is a terrible leader. The ancient sages all say that the powers the new sages have were the powers that the old sages had. Ganondorf isn't going to be killed by a gust of wind or a goron rolling into him. Rauru didn't pick the best warriors. In contrast, if Zelda with her sealing power at full strength, Link with the Master Sword, and the Champions with their powers and weapons(Revali does get bomb arrows), Ganondorf would have had a much harder time.
Because he's got a good boy face, people seem to empathise with him more but Rauru is an absolutely terrible leader!
You're right. Their powers were not enough for Ganondorf - and worst still, Rauru KNEW full well they would fail, he even states it and explains that it'll need to be Link that finishes the job. He martyr's himself, knowing his comrades will be hurt in the process and nearly killing his sister, as well as getting his wife killed by a lack of planning and protection.
Even if they dont die (oops, I made a mistake in the video with that), they are all badly injured as a result of his poor choices.
Nice to see someone agree with me!
The problems I have with the way you think things went down is that it was Mineru, not Rauru, who knew about the ritual. It seemed like new information to Rauru - he kept the Sacred Stones sacred not because of Draconification, but because of the power they have and how that power could be used if it fell into the wrong hands. Also, I have a feeling that the three Dragons were ALL Zonai, not three different races. If we look at Dragondorf and Dragon Zelda, they have appearances that are highly influenced by their original appearance. The goat-like appearances of the three dragons faces with floppy ears and white manes match with Rauru, a (male ) Zonai (Mineru's ears are pointed up and she has no mane- and while yes, a sample size of 2 Zonai is too small to fully accurately extrapolate data, it's the best we have to work off of).
So in my mind, the Zonai who likely became the dragons likely preceded Rauru by...a LOT. As for the elemental nature of those people? It was not due to their race. Every person has a natural ability of their own that the Sacred Stones merely enhances, not grants. Ganon's ability was Malice thanks to his nature as Demise's hatred incarnate. Zelda's is light and time due to the genetics of Rauru and Sonia (which is interesting, as that definitely indicates these traits are hereditary). And of course, every Sage and their abilities are also innate to them (but in their case, is indeed influenced by their race, but I am making the case that that is an exception, not the rule).
It's obvious that the Zonai have existed for a very, very long time- Rauru was one of the last, not one of the first Zonai. Just because Rauru and Mineru are the only significant Zonai we know of in the era of TotK's past does not mean they were the only significant Zonai to exist.
Another point of consideration is that your implication that the Golden Goddesses would have no reason to become Dragons themselves could be a case of building a carriage before you've bought or tamed a horse. In mythology, especially in Zelda, Dragons are treated as divine being, immortal Gods, and let's not forget that the Zonai themselves were revered as Gods in the past. Perhaps the Golden Goddesses were indeed Zonai who became Gods by eating their sacred stones. They likely had to do it to stop the incarnation of Demise from their time (regardless if it was Demise himself, some predecessor, or etc). And one theory I saw definitely makes this seem more legitimate by pointing out that Zelda herself is implied to have the whole Triforce in her body, and she becomes a Dragon and houses the Master Sword. So if we were to extrapolate things: She became a God (a Dragon), who 'created' the Triforce and master sword (thus becoming 'Hylia'). You could view what happened in TotK's backstory as re-explanation for the origins of the series itself. I mean, Skyward Sword certainly makes it clear that there were Dragons who predated History of Hyrule itself.
I make no claim that this is fact, I merely bring this up as a different perspective based on the information we are given, without outright fully calling into question Rauru. He was definitely misinformed and mistaken about a few things, but in my mind, he was definitely not intentionally 'lying' as it were.
Hey, wow, first of all thank you for leaving such a detailed comment. I really do appreciate it.
Okay so my argument here is that Rauru surely MUST know more. He does seem surprised by Mineru's claims, but I think this is more of an act based on what he says later on to Zelda about her being in the past for a distinct reason, and that Link will need to be the last line of defence. This one line alone, something I actually don't bring up enough in the video on the subject, is enough for me to call into question not only his motives with ensuring Zelda has the stone (The seal breaks as she approaches, so it therefore must be under his control to some degree at least, or it's the most crazy coincidence ever that the seal breaks when she approaches it.)
He clearly has grand plans for the princess and her role within the world(s). He perhaps DOESN'T see her power activating with the stone and her transporting back to their era, which causes for a change of plans, but he knows enough to hatch a plan to begin with, involving her.
Also, Rauru and that third eye of his know more than meets the eye about the Imprisoning War also. He understands from the very beginning that he can't win. Even after the death of his beloved, he still understands he can't win, and knows that without Zelda, ALL of his plans would have failed. I bring this up because without Zelda, he doesn't distract Ganondorf. He NEEDS Zelda with him for the war, as foretold in the tapestries, and he likely has seen all of this via the power of his wife, Sonia - who controls time. It would not be a far stretch to assume that one or both of them can see the past and future.
Now onto the dragons. This video, I change my mind quite dramatically even within the video ITSELF. Towards the end, I am of 100% opinion that the dragons are 3 former Zonai members. Now, I accuse Rauru of testing on Zonai, but no, I actually agree that these Zonai were ancient beings. Without meaning to sound like a shill for my own videos, my "Dragons and Depths" video explains this completely.
I think that 3 Zonai with elemental powers were given the task of protection of the world. They live in peace for many years until a calamity style event occurs. We have not heard about this yet in games, but it's akin to the great floods. In order to protect the world and its peoples, the dragons lift a chunk of the world, or several chunks rather, to the sky with the Zonai peoples on board - hence their sudden disappearance. The world is then created anew, on the ashes of the old - covering the old world with a new crust as it were, and therefore the depths are born.
The golden goddesses, I think by this time period are still non-existent. They disappeared after the worlds first creation as described in OoT and only left the Triforce as an artifact. The dragons are not golden goddesses, but are potentially Zonai with powers similar to, which is why the wording indicates that they had "close to god like powers", that's paraphrased of course. We are probably more looking at a situation where swallowing the stones turned them into immortal deities, so the Zonai become the Gods rather than the Gods were Zonai.
I think I've seen the Zelda has the triforce video, it's an interesting concept. I'm just not entirely sure that she does. The reason for this is something I really need to explain in a video - but using timelines is all good and well, but each game should be treated more like the SAME story, passed down through generations and generations. As the story passes down through each race of people, each generation, the story changes in detail. From where the events happened, to how they happened. Each change better reflects the world as it is now. At the time of telling the story, the Triforce was told to children in order to teach them the virtues and vices of Power, Wisdom and Courage. Now, those lessons aren't needed as much as say, the idea that with the right support you can overcome anything.
I've acknowledged. I was a LITTLE harsh on our floppy eared friend, but I do think he knew more than he lets on.
Again, thank you soooo much for the comment.
@@heylistengaming Rauru does not come across to me as manipulative or evil. He seemed very honest and forthcoming- and omniscient, he was definitely not. He knew Ganondorf was evil, hence his plan to keep an eye on him, but even with the aid of Zelda, somebody from the future who could CONFIRM Ganon's evil intentions, they could not prevent Sonia's death- and I sincerely doubt any scheme Rauru would intentionally make would lead to the death of the woman he loved, regardless of how you feel about his intentions- he was not playing 4D chess here, all did NOT go as planned- and I doubt he really wanted to sacrifice his own life to keep Ganon at bay, he simply had no choice but to entrust the future to Zelda's knight, as he knew that was the best path forward, as that's how History had already been going based on what Zelda and the wall carvings told him.
Rauru's knowledge of the future seemed pretty limited to a few things: that which Zelda told him, and that which the carvings on the wall foretold (and I am sure those carvings also predate Rauru by a lot). The way I think the Recall power works does not allow LIMITLESS control of time, and isn't the same as precognition- we only ever saw Sonia use it for very specific things- single objects for a limited time, like how it works in the game itself. Zelda herself seemed to have far stronger time powers than Sonia, considering she recalled all the way back to the past- but I also argue that that was because it was originally Sonia's stone, from that era- it simply 'recalled' back to its origin, which is all that power ever really is ever SHOWN to do, not traveling back and forth through time freely (hell, Zelda, who learns to control that same time Power, does not use it to TRAVEL to the present, she is forced to become a dragon to both LIVE LONG ENOUGH to carry the Master Sword to the present, and RESTORE IT to its original state- and I think it is likely that the Recall power might have had the ability to at least do the latter, but I do not think it would have allowed her to travel back to the present, at least if the ability works the way I think it does, and by all accounts of how it's used in the story AND the gameplay, I do think that's the case.
I definitely think there's a lot of merit AND evidence for Zelda having the Triforce. in BotW and TotK, personally. It definitely shows the triforce on her hand as she holds the Master Sword while becoming the Dragon. I feel there's, more than enough implication that the Sealing Power she has is in fact derived from the Triforce itself, especially given its otherwise noteworthy omission, something that is frankly nearly unheard of throughout the series, except in cases like MM and Link's Awakening, both parallel worlds (one definitely imagined, the other we don't know for sure if it actually exists or was all in Link's head). But ultimately, I do think there's a lot of subjectivity and interpretation to these things. I for one, do not plan to reject the timeline in favor of treating the series as the same story retold many different ways, I plan to still try to figure out how everything works within the timeline we have. After all, as far as Word of God is concerned, that timeline is still valid.
But then... how Ganondorf knew about that??? How he knew that swallowing his stone would have that effect on him???
There's a few ways and there'll be a future video on it!
I could see a Goron eating a special stone just to what it tastes like, with no idea what would happen.
My god I love the idea of that hahaha
11:54 Dunno if anyone has pointed this out (I'm commenting this mid-watching of the video), but Rauru absolutely does NOT get all of the Sages killed against Ganondorf. Only he himself died in that battle for the sake of protecting everyone else. Proof of this is that the Sages can be seen watching after Zelda's transformation into a Dragon and soaring into the sky. And they are NOT ghosts, as King Rhoam, the Champions, and even Rauru have shown us what a ghost/spirit looks like. Rauru is not a perfect leader by any means, but he IS a great leader for making the ultimate sacrifice to save both the Sages and Zelda (yes she's a Sage too but she's from the future so I'm classifying her by herself); giving his life for those close to him.
Yup, this has been picked up on a lot and I've admitted that it's an oversight on my part. He doesn't get the sages killed, but he should have been more protective of Sonia, as her death essentially caused much of what happens next with the secret stones.
i think they turned into dragons long before rauru was born
With the aid of secret stones that only Rauru had access to due to his arm? Unless that power passes down generations and the previous generations of Zonai had no belief in a monarchy prior to Rauru, which would of course be possible but feels a bit like an oversight.
@@heylistengamingauru was never said to be King of the Zonai. I believe he gained the monarch moniker through the marriage to Hylia-descended (and true ruler of whatever Hyrule was before a full-on kingdom) Sonia. I haven't heard from any lore video or my own investigation that says Rauru was a king of his people, just one of the last so the OP of the comment thread here has a point
@@heylistengamingin the game the picture shown of the zonai with secret stones around him as the zonai is in a meditation position, (the mural) that isn’t rauru that was someone who descended way long before rauru who had access to the secret stones so this theory doesn’t really make any sense
@@captain_9824 the theory isn't stating Rauru was the only Zonai ever, much the opposite, but that Rauru knew fully about the effects of dragonification and most importantly how to cure it, and to do so he and Mineru would have needed to research it, meaning they had others turned into dragons in order to test how to revert it. Still, despite that drawing, the Secret Stones are exclusively accessed via the Zonai arm which only Rauru has in this current age he is within, and they were locked away in order to hide the amplification of powers and to stop the forbidden act from occurring. However, Rauru knows the moment the story of the ancient Zonai and dragonification is told to Zelda that he can lead her down the path to make sure she feels it's her only option and he condones it by telling her she is in his time period for a reason.
1. Sages didn't die in the battle with Ganondorf
2. Raoru and Mineru are the last 2 Zonai, but not the necessarily the first or only ones
3. Raoru owns the secret stones, but does it say that he created them? He may have inherited them after the ritual was forbidden prior to Raoru's birth
Also when Mineru mentions the process of draconification Rauru seems to be a little confused, it appears as though Mineru has more knowledge of the act than him and if he was the one to outlaw it that feels unlikely
Phew. There's been a lot to respond to today!
1. According to the sages cutscenes when you clear the dungeons, they are all individually bested in battle and then the next you see of them, they are ethereal, as are Rauru and Sonia, who we know for sure died. So 2 and 2 can be put together.
2. Yep, I agree here and I may have not mentioned the ancient zonai on account of only taking this games era into account.
3. Rauru owns them for sure, where they came from is another matter but my point ends up being more than only he can access them. For him to have given them to Zonai of his time, may not be such a stretch.
Equally, yes they could be dragons from eras long gone by, made from Zonai who ate the rocks. I dont deny that much but equally he knows more about the process than he let's on.
@itzcookie1248 he seems to act surprised and unknowing yes, but then knows how to restore a dragon back to human form, and let's not forget Rauru should be all wise - he has come from an ancestry of near God's and the Rauru name is always synonymous with wisdom and Owls, and he even has a third eye which is usually a symbol of wisdom or otherworldly knowledge. He knows more than he let's on with Minerus conversation because he knows he needs Zelda to complete her mission of turning into a dragon.
Doesn't break your theory but just because draconified Zelda saves Link, doesn't mean it's remembering anything from when she was a Hylian. The dragon can have their own thoughts and feelings. Dragon Zelda could very well be saving Link on instinct. Otherwise, why would she be saving him more often or actually do anything but fly around until the final battle
It's hard to say but I'd argue that she knows who link is, and what relevance he has, due to the regularity of making sure he completes his mission.
Yes, the dragons could have their own thoughts and feelings but then the other 3 literally circle the same paths over and over like some weird groundhog day, releasing their elemental affinities and changing weather systems as they do. They have seemingly, no mind, just routine and pattern otherwise they would surely break their own cycles.
They are beasts as Zelda lore would describe them, and don't discriminate between hero and villain, yet Zelda does. She knows the hero's quest, she understands the evil of Ganon-Dragon and I actually think this is because of her emotional tie to Link, hence her tears as she turns into the dragon.
Not sure if someone said it already but Mineru was the only sage to be fatally injured. The others actually lived and made sure that the stones were safe for their descendants to find and use them to help Link.
Edit: the sages were also there to watch Zelda become the dragon, and were the ones to lift the sky islands up after she turned.
Edit: i see there was already a convo about it but will still leave this comment up.
Yeah we smashed out this idea, and yes, I got it wrong that the other sages did not die. They did live on, indeed. However, I've watched back the cut scenes about 2 million times at this point in time and I FULLY endorse still, that he is in part, responsible for Sonia's death.
the stone that Zelda received wasn't from ganondorfs husk, it falls from rarus arm, which is why the seal was broken. Ganondorf had his stone (Sonias) throughout the game and final fight. So then it also wouldn't be called the "Stone of time" it was just a secret stone. they don't have the powers they amplify the powers of the holder.
I thought I corrected that throughout the video as I said it drops from Raurus arm as it falls but if not, yeah. I was mentioning the secret stones by elemental name purely to differentiate them because 8 secret stones when we're talking about different people holding them becomes hard to track. Hers becomes of time (with an element of light) while ganondorfs becomes of darkness.
If Zelda could hold an object while being a dragon, isn't it possible that the three dragons each hold a physical piece of the triforce, which is why no one in these two games talk about the triforce?
So I have an idea on this regarding the idea that each game is NOT as connected as we want it to be, and the reason things keep getting retconned is because the entire timeline is complete rubbish, created JUST to satiate the fans asking. In reality, the games should resemble the SAME story over and over again, but told as a different legend as time goes on.
The belief in the triforce is during an era of church and religion, hence the temple of time, the songs that are sung, the belief that certain stones will lead you into the sacred realm. Its much more an age of superstition and religion in the era of OoT so as a result, you get more of a recounting of religious artifacts; Goddesses, sacred artifacts, and isn't it funny that this cooperates better with the idea of real world religion too, as every religion effectively weighs the pureness of your heart to better decide if you go to a Heaven or a Hell, the same as what happens when Ganondorf reaches for the Triforce - his heart is measured and Hyrule becomes his, a literal hell.
By the time of the era of the wilds, the age of religion has passed us. The only religious buildings left are crumbled and decayed, and the only effigies left are the few, and far between, Goddess Statues, there to remind the people of Hyrule of their religious aspects. In the Wilds though, science has won the day. We are in a very scientific age, the need for stories of an artifact that grant wishes...simply isn't important, so the story of the Triforce has been lost to age.
HOWEVER, there are remnants of the Triforce by those who have powers - those who have powers akin to Gods of some format. Link - his initial armour set has Triangles hanging from it. Sonia has a Triforce Tattoo on her arm. The markings ARE there, but their meanings are completely lost to time now.
Now we believe in science, but back in the times of Rauru's era, we are more religious and superstitious. We believe that the founders so to speak had the powers of Gods, a legend passed down from era to era. We believe that rocks contain amplification magic. We know magic still exists in this world, so that's fine. We are superstitious in the fact that the rocks contain so much power they need to be locked away/we know about becoming immortal through swallowing the stones.
@@heylistengaming Who believes in science, though? I guess I find this confusing because it appears the Yiga use ninja magic and Zoni technology which is fueled by light magic. The Sheika use Zoni technology but also use spiritualism/religious belief to mummify themselves (like Buddhist Monks) and everyone tends to / decorates their goddess statues based on their cultural beliefs. Zelda prayed to the Goddesses 100 years ago and then her prayers were answered 100 years later... The Great Fairies exist and the Stables acknowledge the horse God.
I had a whole different thought on the tears and why Raura locked them up.
I always assumed that they were the secret stones of his immediate family. So they are near and dear to him as the last relics of his zonal family.
Mineru discussing draconification seemed very separate, and it gave me the impression they don't fear it necessarily because it is such a vile fate to bestow on yourself. Lose your memories and will? What's the point?
He is still a terrible leader though. Great video!
I think that's the thing with zelda games, isn't it? It's easy to form your own assumptions. I've seen no text in the game that alludes to the idea that these are family heirlooms, though they could be as they were passed from chief to chief of the Zonai clan.
They don't fear draconification, that is for sure, and I agree, how you put it is definitely how they feel towards it, but I feel they have 100% researched it - after all, that's Mineru's role in their group - research, and I feel more than anything, rather than afraid, they are curious.
Oh yes he is not a good leader at all. Nope.
Thank you!
@@heylistengaming true! I didn't realize I had made that assumption until I watched your video.
Good stuff! 🤙
He's still a better leader than King Rhoam ever was
@@sophitiaofhyrule do not tempt me write a video essay on the failings of every known ruler of the Hyrule Kingdom because I swear, there's not one that is actually capable of ruling well!
The Frostbite, Ember and Charged armor resemble the three dragons. I think they were ancient Zonai warriors who were protector of the sacred springs. They swallowed their Secret Stones to become immortal dragon to keep watching over the springs.
I dont think they swallowed them watch over the springs, but I can see these outfits resembling the Zonai that became dragons.
Well I have a theory at the depths used to be the original "surface" of Hyrule and what's now the surface of Hyrule was created when 3 goddesses or 3 ancient zonai decided the land had become too chaotic and filled with darkness and evil so they raised the great platue into the sky while using the triforce to shape the land over the depths sealing them deep below and creating a new land bathed in light and peace. And splitting the triforce into 10 pieces that became the sacred stones. Then at some point a demon broke from the depths at the location under the great platue and 3 zonai, who were reincarnations of the 3 goddesses/ancient zonai, swallowed a sacred stone to use it's power in order to seal the demon while lowering the great platue into the land, re sealing the depths and bringing the zonai back to the surface. Then many years later we see the events of ToTk Past which are this timelines parallel version of the events in ocarina of time just without link having been born yet.
Well...this is...awkward. I'm in the middle of writing a script for a future video that near enough followe this exact same theory!
Well then great minds do think alike lol plus it just seems like all the clues are there for for that being this timelines history at least somewhat. Im just wondering how closely this timeline parallels the OG timeline (like is there events on this timeline parallel to every game in the series just slightly different?) and if it's a split timeline originating from the triforce splitting into 10 or if there were some other time shenanigans done to create this parallel timeline?
I look forward to seeing what youve come up with in future videos 😊
One plot hole to this theory is how were the ghosts of the first champions able to give the current champions there spirit stones if they swallowed them. You cant be a ghost and an Immortal dragon at the same time.
And this is one of the reasons why by the end of the video I've changed tact and we're no longer looking at the first champions, but rather 3 zonai from within Raurus era.
Hmm…..how would they know that the dragon’s lost themselves? Zelda herself appears to have some semblance of herself, even if subconscious. But that happens in the future. Mineru seems to know already what will happen to the mind…
There must have been a telepath or soul reader of sorts who could sense the mental state of the dragons to determine them gone and stop the ritual.
Actually this is a really good question, unless they just analysed the way the dragons acted and made the presumption that they lost their minds as they circle around and around after their formation. Bare in mind that they are full formed dragons from the off, and almost seemingly lose their mind from the beginning. Mineru though, as the sage of spirit perhaps infused herself into one of the dragons as a temporary measure as part of the research? I'm just stretching for ideas now!
Hylians in general have telepathic abilities which we know dating back to lttp so yeah, but also, someone would have absolutely HAD to have done this before for them to even “know” what happens, hell even Ganondorf knows about it
My take is the Zonai were people of magic and they were prospering well. But in their research for magic they stumbled on/created the secret stones and began experimenting. That led them to understand two important things about draconification.
First, that it grants you eternal life
Second, that your mind changes to a completely different being.
The zonites did not care about the latter to become immortal but they forgot something important. To procreate to keep the species. So Rauru had to take a hylian to keep his bloodline and forbid the stones as they were the species demise (pun intended).
In regards of the dragons in totk I believe they are the same as din, farore and nayru, who are former zonites that came to this land. And their elements are the powers each individual had when they were zonites.
Ps: your videos are awesome man, thanks for sharing
Thank you! I really appreciate that.
On your ideas, solid foundation I feel. I just dont think the experimentation stopped at the ancients. I think that any true scientist would want to conduct studies themselves and Mineru is a prime example of this. I also think that you don't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and this feeds into my idea that both Rauru and Sonia knew how to solve Draconification, and if I'm not wrong, the ancients - even IF they knew about Draconification and were the ones to originally forbid it, they only knew that a draconified sentient being would lose what it is that makes them them, and as far as I am aware, they did not know of a cure as it were. This, is something that only the sage of light and the sage of time know of, and as such, they both knew a LOT more than they ever let on about the process.
Din, Farore and Nayru COULD have been - and as a part of logic I think this could be the case - Ancient Zonai who were named after the golden goddesses and nothing more in that regard - and they potentially could have had very early renditions of the powers seen in the sages of Fire, Wind and Water, hence their elemental changes to Dinraal, Farosh and Naydra. Either way, these dragons are for sure, Zonai.
You gave this big long explanation as to why the Gorons might eat the secret Stone to become the Dragon.
They literally eat rocks. I bet one of them decided that it looked tasty
LMAO you know, I....did think this when I wrote it and thought...that seems too easy 🤣
Rauru doesnt get all the sages killed. The only sage death attributed to the fight with rauru and gannondorf is Rauru himself being sealed with gannondorf, and Mineru having fatal injuries.
The timeline then continues. Zelda reaches out to each of the sages, who build a temple to test the future sages tk guage their worthyness tk inherit the secret stones. And ensure that link will have a new sage for that time to fight alongside link.
The cutscenes of zelda talking to each sage. That link and the sage prospect see at the beginning and end of each temple happens after the fight and sealing of Gannondorf.
Each of the other sages either die of old age, or die guarding their temple/homeland.
Again, I saw a lot of this at the time of writing as a different order or structure, perhaps.
I figured Zelda had gathered the sages, to use the stones in the upcoming fight, with the eventual view - Raurus vision as it were, that they would fight and lose against Ganondorf, but then the stones would be returned to their locations inside of the lotuses in the temples.
Actually the number of stones actually supports this idea that I just stated. For the dragons to have dragonified, they all must have had a stone. This means that there are 7 stones active and 3 in the sky and now one extra because Zelda carries a stone back in time with her. This means that there are 11 stones total, but we know that's not the case because there are 5 sages, Rauru and Ganondorf/Sonia with the original 7 stones. There's only an 8th stone in this era due to time travel.
The dragons, as dragons should also carry 1 stone each, but there is no sign of the stone - not like Ganondorf anyway where the stone is clearly on show in his head.
If - however - the stones regenerate in the lotus flowers many years after their use - to turn someone into a dragon - at the point where they HAVE lost their minds completely, perhaps, then we have our way for the stones to be reappearing in the lotus flowers. The same could be said for if the holder is defeated.
Holder is killed --> stone shatters --> reforms in a lotus flower.
It's just an idea at this point, nothing firm and will be debunked because there's no significant evidence to support the idea, but its an idea.
As Link, we talk to aetherial forms of the sages. They're dead. That much is for sure. We also know Mineru is dead, as is Rauru and Sonia. We see the latter 3 again - we know Mineru did NOT die in that battle but possibly from her wounds later on after she infuses her soul into the purag pad, but what we don't know is about the others - for sure.
It seems as if Zelda re-gives them the stones to pass to future generations, but would this not defy the point if they already had the stones in the imprisoning war? The idea of them being kept for future generations could be simply, that even in their deaths, they still are tasked with guarding the stones. Wouldn't be the first time a video game enlisted the help of the dead for a major plot point.
Thank you for all of your comments. I really appreciate how involved so many of you guys have been. It's really fun getting to debate all.of this with you!
@@heylistengaming I really hope that your theory is correct about the stones eventually reforming after being destroyed. That would be so cool, and I want Paya as the sage of shadows.
But if the theory of there having been 7 stones always being correct and the 3 guardian dragon sage stones being returned after consumption... Why did Zelda's stone not return to the lotus after the 10s of thousands of years. (This also proves that if there were 7 stones and they went back to be used by other sages, means that they had to have been super ancient. As Zelda was a light dragon for the entirety of the timeline. As the 1st calamity was the only defined timeframe we know and that was 10k years ago. Which was when calamity Gannon popped out and the ancient hero defeated calamity Gannon. The events of Zelda traveling back to Rauru and Sonia's time is unmeasured. But well beyond 10k years)
No, the evidence suggests there were 10 in ancient times. 3 got eaten and became the guardian dragons of the springs. And the murals depicting the 7. (Which were created under the ruins of Hyrule. Meaning the murals were made to tell the tale of after Rauru and gannondorf got sealed. Therefore making the murals date back to that time. Well after the Draconification events of the guardian dragons were ancient knowledge.
Zelda never gave the stones to the sages. She was asking them to set up trials to make future sages and ensure tk pass on their power and have a representative fight alongside link in the future.
They didn't fail to kill gannondorf, then return their stones, then Zelda return them and ask for help.
That order of operations is very backwards.
I agree with your assessment that it's very strange we don't see the secret stones on any of the dragons except gannondorf's demon dragon. Which is very strange. He seems to be an exception to the norm of not seeing the stone.
Upon further looking into screenshots of the Demon Dragon form. It seems that in the start, his secret stone isn't visible. It's only after defeating all of the Gloom/Malice polyps does the stone surface on his forehead. Thus making it vulnerable to attack and being shattered.
One thing I don't really get about Rauru is that he is credited as the first king of Hyrule... but it's also noted that the Zonai *descended* upon the Hylians from the heavens. That implies Hylians, or anscestors of them, existed before anyone met Rauru... and therefore before the first king of Hyrule... so was there simply no ruler of the land prior to Rauru appearing? Or are we assuming that the land was divided by the races, and so it hadn't become Hyrule for Hyrule to have a king prior to this?
Hmmmmmmm....game of hyrule apparently. Possible multiple groups with claims to thrones? Weirdly, my assumption was kind of that as the last male Zonai, and the fact that Zonai were thought to be God like throughout history, that he sort of proclaimed himself as King - but we KNOW there were Kings before him - just Kings now, of legend such as Dapnes Johanssen Hyrule. These Kings existed but millenia before so they almost are left to legend now.
Hylians existed, but the Kingdom of Hyrule didn't exist.
all kings have ever done through history is turn up in an already peopled land and tell these people that they are now being ruled and use their more advance weapon technology to enforce this rule and impose arbitrary borders. This is probably what Rauru did. Maybe this is why Ganondorf revolted, because he was just there chilling in the desert with the Gerudo when Rauru turned up and was like, you all are Hylians now and I'm in charge
My assumption is that it has to do with the timeline split that happened way back in Ocarina of Time. Sounds outlandish, I know, but bear with me.
Thanks to the consequences of Zelda sending Link back to the past in Ocarina of Time, there are three separate timelines in the series: Downfall, Adult, and Child. Each one of these timelines have resulted in vastly different Hyrules, with the latest games in the Child timeline even taking place in a completely new version of Hyrule after the old Hyrule Kingdom was flooded. If the timeline were to somehow bring itself back together at some point, it’d result in complete chaos. Places and potentially entire human beings would cease to exist while others would seemingly pop into existence. Given that the locations named in BotW and TotK are named after previous locations despite being nowhere near said previous locations, I believe that the proposed timeline merging happened and that, for a period of time, the world was thrown into chaos (this would also explain how the Zora and Rito can exist at the same time; without a timeline combination, it’s pretty much impossible). People had hazy memories of their lives before this and the things that they were sure of tended to cause arguments with others who originally came from differing timelines, but common threads emerged like the Goddess Hylia and the Hyrulian Royal Family’s Weird Magic Triangles. The Zonai eventually descended from the sky and brought order to the currently chaotic surface world. Everyone knew there had once been a kingdom of Hyrule, but nobody could agree on anything else involving the history of the kingdom, so Rauru was recorded as the first King of Hyrule because they didn’t really know what else to do.
TLDR; it’s just the timeline causing chaos, as always.
There's a certain place on each dragon's back where you can find a triangle symbol, representing a single piece of the triforce...
I've actually seen this. It does kind of throw this more into the realm of the idea that the dragons were born from the triforce. However, a marking there could also be an Easter Egg as the devs have already made it crystal clear that Zelda seems to hold the triforce now.
@@heylistengamingThis is gonna sound like a stretch, and I could be wrong, but just hear me out for a second. I personally think that Zelda's triforce in BotW is symbolic of her goddess ancestry, here's why:
The triforce only appears on Zelda's hand when she uses her power. Otherwise, it's not visible on her body (Fact check if I'm wrong, I haven't played the game in a while). In every other mainline Zelda game, the pieces of the triforce are visible on whoever possesses them. That's why I think it's symbolic of Hylia's blood within her.
As for the dragons, each individual piece is visible on the body of each dragon. Personally, I believe that either the dragons were each given a piece of the triforce by hylia to protect, which would also explain why they had to take on the form of immortal dragons, so that they could preserve the triforce within them throughout time immemorial to prevent it from finding it's way into the wrong hands. It's also really cool to imagine three noble Zonai sacrificing their own wills in order to preserve such a powerful artifact.
Either that or three very hungry Zonai thought the three pieces were golden Doritos and decided to have a snack.
When Link enters the Temple of Time and see's the growing Orb and sees Zelda, I believe that she found a way to remove her Recall ability for Link. He sent the Master Sword back in time with Recall, which Zelda recieved. She knew Link would need Recall/Time Magic in order to send the Sword.
This is why (I believe) she is the Light/White Dragon, she removed her time powers so all that was left was the Sacred Light Magic in which she could bathe the Master Sword in. She couldn't risk the stone making her anything other than a source of Sacred Energy.
I believe that her last wish to hell like is what kept her from truly losing herself over all the years.
On a side note, I believe that the other dragons left part of themselves in the labyrinths, amd their last wish was to protect their springs and it's region for all time, that's why they do what they do. The dragons are the embodiment of that last wish/desire before swallowing their stones.
Zelda giving the recall ability makes a lot of sense. It's a time based magic, which she holds, and you could almost say at the end, Link uses her time magic to restore her alongside the spirits of the Zonai. It's an interesting idea for sure and one that's hard to disprove.
Hey great vid, just a counter theory here, we see how different Zelda’s dragon of light and how the “spoiler free” 5th dragon look compared to the other 3. The fact that the other 3 have floppy ears & a goat shaped head makes me feel like they were zonai just because they have different elements doesn’t really mean they have to be different races. The springs have been said to have their guardian dieties (these dragons) but have been cared for by the hylians because the last 2 dragons introduced retain some of their features I can only assume that it’s male zonai that were dragonified
I actually touched on this in the video. The other dragons were Zonai, I'm 95% sure of it, and it's due to their appearance in comparison to Zelda-Dragon and the fifth.
@@heylistengamingI should have finished the last 10 minutes lol 😂 😅 great vid
@@OhSnapItzSam hahahah caught out! Thanks though, I appreciate it
The dragons are very clearly implied to be zonai. They aren’t gerudo, Zora, and gorons. Notice how different the light dragon looks, because she originated from a hylian. It’s repeated often that the zonai seemed at first to be gods, which means that tears of the kingdom is literally a rewrite of the entire canon. This is a much deeper rabbit hole than it seems, and you’re trying to keep it surface level. Like it or not, all of the old games have been retconned.
Yes they are implied to be Zonai, I get to this in the section at the end of the video. It's clear they are Zonai.
However....its not a retcon and this is where people will be and are divided about the game.
This game doesn't rewrite canon. This game happens AFTER the events of the timeline as we know it, and we know that because BOTW was stated to be 10s of thousands of years after the last entry in each timeline split.
The God's descended down to Hyrule, mimicking the way the golden goddesses did, but the Zonai remained and overtook the lands due to their immeasurable power and wisdom, hence why their carvings are of dragons and Owls predominantly. The whole land was possibly created anew on top of the ashes of the Old world, or the depths. But this doesn't mean the events of the timeline never happened, just that history repeats itself in this world, which should be no surprise.
if they were Zonai, surely they would have the third eye
@@nickmarshall6895 so the enormously long hair and zonai ears aren’t enough for you? What else do you think they would be, because they certainly aren’t hylian.
13:40 he gave this secret stones after ganondorf got secret stone and when he got it he was able to create whole army realy easy so rauru didn't wanted this to happen again, it's even mensioned that secret stone's greatly increase efectivenes of abillites
Yeah he gave the stones to this batch of sages however, I find it hard to believe that they didn't know the ramifications of the stones and draconification given that Mineru was researching it, therefore they may well have tested it on other zonai prior.
What if the three elemental dragons were actually Raura and Minaru's family. They forbid dragonfication even though they used it for whatever reason. Minaru knew, but Rauru didn't because he was too young. Rauru hid the stone out of tradition told to him by Minaru.
Rauru made seemingly bad decisions, but based on what he knew from Zelda, he failed regardless of what they'd do. From Zeldas prospective they were already shadows of the past. His only decision was to try to change the past and possibly mess it up worse or play the long game and provide the future with the tools to win.
Its a really interesting idea. I actually flirted with the idea of Rauru and Sonia having had three children before the time of TOTK, and this is where the dragons mystery ends so to speak as the offspring are alive, just in the air. Then I realised that wasnt going to work as then a dragon has to have a child with a Hylian, so I soon gave up on that!
@heylistengaming I didn't think of Rauru and Sonia's children, but that would be interesting. I was thinking more like a father, a mother, and an older sibling or uncle/aunt. Then I liked the idea of them being female family members to reflect the Golden Goddesses; like a grandmother, a mother, and an older sister. But I couldn't make up my mind and just wrote "family".
I’m hoping for dlc or a third game we can revert the dragons to who they once were and meet them. Not to mention they also go into the depths as if they remember living there. The main question is how did Ganondorf know about draconfication?
That would be absolutely bad ass. Love that idea. Yeahhh...I have no idea either, but maybe I need to go back through and have a look to see if there's any kind of hint that can turn it into a video. Problem is though, it appears to be a wheres kass kind of question!
I think that the reason that the Light Dragon still had a part of Zelda’s consciousness was because she had the Master Sword embedded in her head for so long, a part of Link’s soul.
This is a solid idea apart from the memories therefore wouldn't be Zeldas, and neither would the consciousness. Its established the sword is likely Fi. Also doesnt explain Zeldas actions after the sword is pulled from her head, as the embuement of the swords influence would be lost as the story states explicitly that the art of dragonification means to lose oneself, so if there's an effect that stops that, the moment the effect stops, it should either gradually or immediately end.
Overlooked The Great Skeletons that are in The Depths, beneath the same locations where the Leviathan Skeletons were in BOTW.
Yep, I did miss them in this video though I think I've covered well enough what I think the dragons are based on what I think Farosh, Dinraal and Naydra are.
I think you are mistaken presuming the dragons were Sages at all... That is to say, they were all Zonai, but Mineru and Rauru were the last stated in game to be on Hyrule, they stated there were others who continued to exist in the sky at that time but never discussed the form they existed in, easily they could have draconified afterwards or long before, Leviathans are something entirely different though, the bone structure is not the same, they are not immortal, and they give birth/breed.
If I had to guess I would Say that the 3 immortal dragons, just like Zelda, follow a geas or overriding will just like Zelda did as a holder of the master sword.
Recall her words, "you must find me" are likely the only thing she needed Link to know so he would receive her empowered sword, she had 1 job, to deliver that sword repaired to him, the other 3 likely had a similar event or spent their will on devotion to their goddess and linking her to the mortal plane.
I think they will have been sages to some degree because Rauru is the holder of the stones and he gives them to those he most trusts, evidently in the cutscene where Rauru gives the stones to the elemental sages. However, it is true that the last zonai were those left in the game as we know or, Mineru and Rauru. This doesn't mean though that the current sages were those involved, but rather sages that were originally Zonai , similar to that of the first hero.
@@heylistengaming the stones predate Rauru and Mineru, and not once do they imply the dragons are not around in their time.
@@heylistengamingyou’re assuming that Rauru was the sole keeper of the stones in an entire race that we haven’t seen outside of him and Sonia though, for all we know he inherited their safe guarding when the rest of the zonai either died or disappeared. You’re also assuming that Sages were the only ones to have them at all. There’s still too much we really don’t know about the Zonai to be able to make a definitive judgement like that
At this current point it's not an assumption. He and Mineru are the only two Zonai left standing. He is the only one with the arm that can open the door prior to the lotus of secret stones. Therefore he's the only one that can open it as it stands and therefore he is the sole keeper. In the past - yeah, I can't say for certain, but fact remains that the stones in this iteration as a bare minimum were given to those closest and most trusted by Rauru - and in all truth, this was likely always the way as the generations of the Zonai would have had leaders - as pointed out by a fellow commenter.
These leaders would not have entrusted the stones to just anyone, so therefore would have always been trusted.
Whether or not it's Mineru or Rauru that tested the Dragonification on others remains to be seen, it could well have been the previous generations of Zonai, but fact does remain that Rauru knew a lot more of this than he stated, and he led Zelda to dragonify (I guess would be the word), via his supposed lack of knowledge followed by blind faith.
I agree though, we need more information about the Zonai and only hope we get something to help fill this void a little.
I have a few points I would like to cover...
1 - I believe the 3 dragons were early members of the Zonai race, and because they showed no peronality, desires, or concious thoughts. They just fly by their springs, protecting them over the eons. Its because of this, which why it became a forbidden act. The remaining Zonai believe they lose who they are is because thats all they see.... However I think the protection of the Springs was the last desire for all of them, which became the only goal for the dragons. This is displayed for the Light and Demon dragons - Zelda's last wish was to help Link amd get hom the mastersword. Ganondorf's last wish was the destruction of Link and Hyrule. These desires are mirrored in their dragon forms.
2 - the gender of the dragons! In BotW I believed Naydra was female and the others were male. Since playing TotK I still want to say the same, but in truth I don't think it matters. Maybe its been so long that it doesn't matter, we have no records of their lives, so how would their gender matter? If the player want to see them as all male, all female, or a mixture of the two thats fine.
3 - the clothing of the springs. I believe they were crafted by the first generation of priest(ess)es after the dragonification process. They were baded on the features and elements of the dragons. Those who took over at the springs as guardian (those who wore the clothes) could have been male or female - though, rhe Charged Set could be scandalous. Why do they have the elemental enhancements... that's so they can be more powerful while they were in the dragons presence.
Hey, firstly thank you very much for the thought out comment, it's always very humbling having people spend considerable time to reply on things like this.
I'd also like to state any opinion I have at the state of THIS video, were around 6 months ago and after doing better research, my opinion has changed and I'll be covering this really soon in a video.
To answer your points:
1. I actually agree that the dragons could well have been early members of the Zonai - there will be a LOT more on this soon. Tying the dragons to the springs is a clever idea though and makes sense. I quite like the idea of them being tied to last wishes as it were, dragons in mythology are often tied to wishes so that works nicely.
2. I've actually taken footage of the dragons better than I had before, and I concur, Naydra is female. The other two are female. It doesn't per say matter too much other than shedding some light on the people that became the dragons.
3. Definitely an interesting idea with the clothing, and clearly the charged set was designed to be so that the wearer could be more powerful in the presence of the dragon, I'm not sure I could dispute it if I tried given where the clothing is found, the heavy depiction on dragons in the area and the fact the set LOOKS like Farosh.
If the three elemental dragons are Zonai, why don't they have the third eye that Mineru and Rauru have?
everyone seems to ignore the Zonai's most distinguishing anatomical feature when arguing that the dragons were Zonai
I'm seeing this a little today and you know? I'm not sure I actually have an answer as I'm wondering it myself. They take on every other trait of the zonai though, and perhaps they don't take on every trait , but the third eye seems like a pretty big oversight. No pun intended.
My feeling is that not all zonai have the third eye, only those in a certain bloodline, hence why Mineru and Rauru have it but the ancient hero's aspect is missing it and just has a gemstone in the middle of his head.
Another option is the Secret Stones predate the Zonai and the history of dranonifcation isn't their history, just a history they discovered.
It could well be. The only thing here that makes me doubt that is Raurus reference to himself as the first king of hyrule, indicating that either the zonai didn't know about - or erased all previous history of monarchy in Hyrule.
@@heylistengaming Rauru is the first king of his Hyrule. But previous Hyrule's existed.
I suspect that BOTW and TOTK, including the past, exist at the end of all other Zelda's. For example the past in TOTK is the future for OOT/WW/TP etc.
I'm only about 8 minutes in but it seems as if you think the secret stone Zelda got was originally Sonias, when it isn't, The stone she ends up with is Raurus stone it fell towards her as if that was the plan to make sure she traveled to the past, his arm lets go of Ganondorf and drops the stone as soon as it sensed Link and Zelda were there, It didn't seem like "happenstance"
No, I state that she has the stone of time because Sonia mentions that the stones amplify power and while Zelda Is a mix of light and time, her power leans more towards powers of time. I am aware that she gets Raurus stone and Sonias stone is firmly lodged in ganondorfs head.
I mentioned happenstance because that is how it seems. An act of convenience. But yeah you're right. It clearly was all planned by our wise old owl, Rauru....which only....exacerbates my theory....
@@heylistengaming Okay I misunderstood . I thought you were saying somehow she ended up with Sonias, But yes I agree that Rauru knew more than he let on, Your theory makes sense.
@@DustinFerriss oh no, it's nothing to apologise over. I love the fact that these games get people talking over things like this. The comments have been insane with reactions and amazing ideas. I could perhaps of written that line a little clearer. These are things I'm still trying to get a handle on and will only improve upon as time goes on, I'm sure.
Thanks a lot man :) yeah I cant see how he didn't know more than he let on. I feel even like if he really needed to, or perhaps he did because he knew they would lose the fight against Ganondorf, that Sonia pulled a dr strange and saw every eventuality which is why Rauru knew he had to have Zelda come to his timeline. There was only 1 way everyone didn't die and everything wasn't destroyed.
@@heylistengaming btw you earned a subscriber with this video! got my notifications on and checking out some of your old videos. Its awesome hearing what others notice in games/movies that others don't. Especially because it can lead to noticing even more stuff that was missed, as you said, games like this get people talking, but videos like this get people thinking!
Also there are the dark skeletons in the depths that look like dead dragons which is weird because dragons are supposed to be immortal
Yessss....how...odd is that? Almost like someone tested how to "cure" or reverse dragonification and failed.
The next assumption that the 3 dragons were sages/ representatives of the races of the lands of hyrule. Being a goron, gerudo, and zora is also incorrect, as they are not linked tk the races because of their elemental affinities.
They are linked to the 3 springs of power, wisdom, and courage.
They are the "guardian's of the springs" and have no affiliation to the races of ancient hyrule.
Granted the idea of "Sage of fire, becomes dragon of fire" does make sense, and a connection to 2 sages, being fire and lightning. Is valid.
But we have a sage of water, not the ice dragon. Sure there is a slant comparison from water to ice. But its not perfect.
So the assumption that there was a rumor from the gerudo that the stones would give the consumer imortality is very backwards.
The lore implication is that the secret stones were reserved for the zoni.
And that rauru marrying Sonia was the first secret stone tk be given tk a non zoni mortal.
And the emergency of Gannon rising and stealing Sonia's secret sage stone. Gave rise to Rauru giving the secret stones to representatives of the other non zoni races making new sages.
But there is nothing in the lore to support the opposite theory. That the zoni slways would choose sages from the other races.
As in the game. We litterally see that the remaining 4 secret sage stones are housed in storage. With no owners.
Unlike the continued holding off in a test of worthyness from the original sages, waitinb for the new sages tk claim the secret stones.
On this one, I was going through possibilities and the first one was that it would have been the representatives from the possible races, but by the end I come to the realisation that due to appearance of the dragons, they simply have to be Zonai. I agree, they're not the races at all, it was a possibility until you actually look at the dragons.
Rauru literally can't be the king/authority that outlawed/made taboo the consumption of secret stones, thus committing the act of Draconification.
As Mineru treats the story of Draconification as something long forgotten and she only knows about it because she is a scholar.
Rauru sat right there during her explanation and let her go on, not once hinting that he too knew of the effect.
No, the 3 guardian of the springs dragons are ancient. Even to Rauru and mineru.
And the Zoni might live for a while, but they are only considered gods by less informed races. (any technology, if sufficiently advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic)
The Zoni were heralded as gods for descending from the heavens. But they were very mortal creatures.
The outlier to "living" so long was Mineru. As she was the sage of spirits. And after her body perished. She housed herself in the Purrah pad for tens of thousands of years. Only to reveal herself when link reached the construct head in the storm sky islands.
I imagine that the concept to the Zoni about Draconification is a similar comparison to. "The pyramids are more ancient to Cleopatra, than Cleopatra is to us in modern times"
On the note of Rauru not knowing - I struggle to believe this and realise that Rauru could, with his wisdom - because everyone is writing this off because of his action of an impetuous young Zonai, yet he wields a third eye, which is generally thought in many belief structures IRL to be an all seeing eye, and the fact that he is likely a deep descendent of a God of wisdom, hence the name Rauru, and the Zonai are seen as God's by many including the current Zonai, hence Minerus description of them in her memory.
I have 0 doubts that at some point in the formation of the world as they know it now, the Zonai were God's, or had Godlike power, possibly passed down by the triforce meaning that there would have been 3 - one to represent power, wisdom and courage and these traits while diminished as years have gone on, pass down the line.
Rauru has either seen a lot of the events play out already as he seems to know every consequence to his.action before he gets there and understands Link and the master sword are truly the only hope which is why he explains so in detail to Ganondorf and tells Zelda that the Knight may be their last defence - because he already knows this to be true.
I see Rauru as more manipulative to his own cause than anything, he steers Zelda down the path of draconification, quite clearly.
How long the Zonai live - their mortality - where they went - all of this is a mystery for another day. As we know they disappeared suddenly, we can almost guarantee it wasn't death that came to them all, rather an exodus occurred, or they got trapped under the world, in the depths which maybe explains why there's a constrict factory underground and statues built everywhere as effigies to the races of Hyrule.
No, they're not immortal God's, but they did not just simply die out via a lack of breeding or an act of war. We know this already from BOTW.
@@heylistengaming you seem to view Rauru as an all knowing and manipulative master.
When, if using Occam's Razor. (everything being equal, the simplest answer is usually correct) that Rauru was a king that underestimated everything.
Do you for one second believe that he forsaw his wife dieing and chose to let it happen. Instead of just underestimating how far Gannondorf would go to accomplish his goals. (If he forsaw anything he would have prevented Sonia's death and prevented Gannondorfs rise.)
He didn't lead Zelda down the line of Draconification being the only answer.
That requires there to have actually been other possibilities that he hid from her.
What we witnessed in the game, was known theatrically as Chekov's Gun. Where in, a plot point was introduced, and if not used by the 3rd act of the story was irrelevant and not needed to be included.
Rauru having a third eye is a mutation, one that he even might have pushed the other Zoni to put him in a position of power like guarding the dragon guardians of the springs). Mineru too has a third eye hers just is never shown to open in the game. And as they are the only 2 examples of Zoni people we have seen. Means they are the example of comparison for all Zoni.
The only other people we think are Zoni, are the 3 guardian dragons who don't have 3 eyes. But who is to say that the Draconification didn't remove an eye. After all none of Zelda, gannondorf, or the 2 Zoni we see of Mineru or Rauru have horns. But the dragons do.
But not once does the history state Rauru was a king among the Zoni people.
He descended from the heavens. And the Hylians worshiped him as a god. He took a Hylians bride and decided to found a kingdom.
He became a self declared king. He wasn't born with a royal lineage. Because Mineru is not a princess or a queen. Which she would be if they were royals before. No she is a scholar.
On the opposite side. Gannondorf, the only male Gerudo, born a king. Refuted Rauru's rule, and wanted to claim his throne for himself.
Did you give a spoiler warning after showing clips of the final boss?
I gave spoiler warnings throughout. At the very start, part way in, in the description.
@@heylistengaming yes, that's why the last one felt weird
@@heylistengaming what it warned about had already been shown, and the fact that it wasn't the first warning made it feel kinda out of place
@@ancientbaltoy8769 I try to put in a couple warnings throughout and make sure people are aware of there being spoilers. But this channel has been predominantly made from spoiler material and if I'm honest, I think many people here are wanting to talk end game content now. I apologise to anyone who has had things ruined by my out of place spoilers 😅
8:26 if you look at their physical characteristics they each look like they are zonai, male zonai in specific.
By the time I get to the "end game" section, I actually end up stating this clearly. I went away from them being champions or elemental sages based on appearance.
Excellent video, and well researched!
Thank you! 😊
I dunno. I think rauru sealed Ganon not for the CHANCE to beat ganondorf, but because Zelda went back in the past he KNEW link would be able to take him down
I also hesitate to say that failure means you suck at your job. He did the best he could with the tools he has
Yeah he did, in which case it makes it even worse as Rauru KNEW before she turned into a dragon that his casual manipulation of the knowledge of dragonification passed around by he and Mineru, would work and Zelda would see zero choice but to turn into a dragon - which is then compounded by the fact that he knows and understands a reversal process for Dragonification.
Did he really do the best he could?
All of his sages were not just bested, but killed in battle- we see this because aetherial forms talk to the new sages throughout the game. He went to war to avenge Sonia, and attempt to save Hyrule, and all but Mineru, including him, paid the price.
He manipulated Zelda with the knowledge of dragonification and what it would mean for her, and then led his people to war in order to fully facilitate her losing everything - again- so that she then followed through on becoming a dragon to get the sword to Link.
He did not employ significant security detail despite guards being stationed outside.of the pagoda where Zelda and Sonia talk, yet there are none in his castle grounds to help protect Zelda and/Sonia.
Sonia is killed as a result of this and where is Rauru during all of this?
The tools he has - a light to banish evil. Literally what is said. So why not act AS the security detail and literally protect your queen? Before this point, Ganondorfs power is miniscule in comparison to when he gets the secret stone. They already suspect Ganondorf will strike btw, it wasn't that unexpected, as they had worked out fake Zelda was an imposter and they all claimed they didn't trust Ganondorfs show of fealty.
He's not a great leader at all. He's impetuous, he's brash and has an arrogance about him that believes nothing will go wrong - unless he plans for it to do so.
@@heylistengaming It’s a fun discussion. I’m also not saying you’re necessarily wrong. But hindsight is 20/20. It’s easy to tear a mistake apart after the fact, especially when you make a ton of assumptions that are not discussed in the story. Not to mention that this cycle is the cycle of our story as you mention. No matter what, ganon will be on the verge of destroying the world and we will have to rely on our hero and princess to save it.
My main point here though, would be to be wary of calling someone a failure simply for not succeeding. It’s always easy to see why you failed when looking back on your mistakes.
This is why I make these videos, in all truth, the discussion that comes off of them. I see what you mean in terms of branding him a failure, and noted, however, I still see that he made a lot of mistakes and possibly even led his people down certain paths to make sure a grander plan could be exacted, which would make me question his leadership qualities.
Interesting, but wasn't it said or wrote that Minaru was the zelda of the zonai? I could have sworn she was studying her own people and their history, how do we know it wasn't their ansestors that forbade draconification?
Could well have been, but fact remains that while the ancients forbade it, they still knew a lot more about it than they let on, leading to Rauru executing a chain of events that he knew would result in dragon Zelda and him being able to restore her back to health again.
I think not only are the three Dragons all ancient Zonai, I think those three Zonai were the "Three Golden Goddesses". Zonai were seen as gods. Zonai can turn into dragons. Three dragons named after the three gods. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I've been looking for a way to reply to this one, but maybe the next video will answer it better than a comment can. I'll be going through, relatively, that possibility in the next one!
The three Oracles that were named after Gods probably weren't the only ones name after the goddesses.
13:00 Right, because they can't be used for devstating potential on their own. Not like they could make somebody into the Demon King or anything.
Yes they can, not denying that, but arguably he had that much power latent in him and the stone just amplified it. Same as the others with their lesser powers.
How did ganondorf know about draconification?
What if the dragons aren't the goddesses, but the three Oracles?
I dont think it would make a massive difference as the Oracles were always designed to be the human forms of the goddesses.
so how exactly did ganon know to eat the stone is the critical question that needs answered!
I wish we had a little more info so I could do a video! I think it's as he's been alive just put into a form of statis as such, perhaps he has been being fed information from Kohga who has been underground also? Something bothers me with Kohga, in that he seems to know Ganondorf was about to be brought back to life also, which makes that exchange very circular.
@@heylistengaming exactly what i think too hopefully the dlc will contain some more "in depth" story line with khoga my take on it is that the ultimate weapon he mentioned after the final fight is actually the draconification itself but who knows!?
But thyphlo ruins were build by hylians I thought?
I thought that was told to use in the quest there. Or I’m just misremembering.
I...dont actually remember though it was one of the last things I did in the game. I'm not sure who built them but let's say Rauru is King, the Hylians would have built it under his order still, as king.
@@heylistengaming very true. Also great video by the way! Thanks for sharing
@@obaaneaty oooh that's a great connection. It would make sense as yes, the challenges are all centered around the sages, that it would be built to honour them rather than just the Zonai. I actually- as time has gone on and I've looked deeper, no longer think he had the ruins or anything in current Hyrule build and its withstood time because I now believe his Hyrule is in the depths!
Are you meant to start the dragon tear sidequest by talking to impa?
Yes, that's how it all starts.
Dang it so close to the final boss and I got spoiled. Oh well.
Sorry!! I did try to warn people!! Twice at least in the video itself, even once at the start! 😪
Yeah I should’ve been careful, don’t mean to fault you.
" as the first king of a recognized hyrule in this time period"
THANK GOD you did not fell for the "TROTK PAST is right after skyward sword / 4th timeline" trap
No way. There's only one way Rauru works as the first king and that is that we are not recognising the events prior as they are tens of thousands of years ago and thus, they are legend and old monarchies are lost to history.
Interesting video, would be good to see a video around the limits of the ethereal presence, it seems as though the king etc in botw disappear after their purpose is fulfilled, with rauru showing up at the end and having large amounts of power, can they return after these events but just choose not to? What governs this purpose?
These are all pretty good questions actually! I guess it would be safe to assume that it is an "after I've fulfilled my purpose" style of thing, similar to how it's thought in many cultures about the paranormal. I would be interested by Mineru though who can separate her body and spirit - can she return when she wants or needs to? May be something I'll look at in the future!
@@heylistengaming did Sonia "go" before the others took their vows? If she didn't take a vow to help the hero or wasnt aware of it, it would be an interesting standout to the others
@@TomInbound I took it as that vow happened after Ganondorf punched her to death in her spine, and this act of war from Rauru to Ganondorf was his retaliation. I dont think she had the chance to make that vow, more than anything.
Rauru eludes to having children, yet they are never seen... or are they? What if the dragons were rauru's children that swallowed the secret stones in some sort of ritual? Maybe they didn't know. Or maybe they were born with no latent powers, so the stones couldn't amplify them, but the stones were sacred, so the swallowed them and then BAM! DRAGONS!
BAM DRAGONS! Might just be my favourite new phrase. I'm unclear on when he references children though as he clearly states he and Mineru are the last Zonai.
@heylistengaming honestly, I just rewatched the cutscenes, and he says "Even if something were to happen to me, both my kingdom and the peace it brings - these will endure for generations to come." Not to mention Zelda herself is a blood relative of Rauru and Sonia, as mentioned by Sonia herself upon first meeting Zelda in the dragon tear memories. They had to have children. Zonai-Hylian hybrid children.
@@striggen594 hmmm yeah I do remember that line and remember wondering how when he and mineru are also referred to as the last of their kind. Also, they have to have had children as its implied in cutscene 2 that Zelda is a descendent of Rauru and Sonia. I feel like we have a little hole we need to try to climb out of here, as there's 2 lots of game script that directly contradict one another. I think you're right though, they have to have had children, even if we don't see them directly.
@heylistengaming so what i'm trying to get at, is, rauru and sonia had kids, probably quite a few. If you were the last of a dying race, wouldn't you? ( especially with sonia ;] ) so what if a couple of them were born with no latent abilities, and to try to force abilities, they swallowed the stones. OR, what if they held slight elemental abilities, and the realm needed eternal watch dogs of some sort. There has to be some connection between the zonai and dragonification.
@@striggen594 there's a connection for sure but I can't see Rauru sacrificing his own children and dragonifying them, I mean if I think he's a liar now, that makes him an outright monster!
Technically the sages didnt die from ganon... from old age i'd think.
I think it's more likely from their wounds than old age. No, in the moment of battle they are not killed but their wounds are great and we see that this is eventually what kills Mineru, or at least its inferred.
Zelda loves to flirt with aliens and ancient tech, the dragons could all be zonai scientists who used technologies to create the known world and who's story then became that of Gods. Ganondorf makes it clear that at least the gerudo in his time know that zonai are not gods, but that could be long after or long before everything else.
We know that at least when they came to Hyrule to begin with that they had the power of the God's but that could be a legend passed down through the Zonai lines, as most Zelda games contain. But yes, Ganondorf does state they're mot God's, but him saying that could he his blind faith in himself and his absolute power. Interesting ideas though!
@@heylistengaming I actually hope we get dlc with more distant past info, obviously Zelda, sonia, and ganondorf knows they aren't all that exceptional, but at what point do the average hylian stop considering them as heaven sent?
all i'm heading is 3rd game = restore the dragons, insert other filler here, have them create / restore the triforce or something to that effect (feels a bit like a 3d link to the past remake lol)
Could well be. I personally think as we've leaned into it but not explored it fully yet that the next game tells the story of the first Calamity fully and acts as a pre-prequel
@@heylistengaming only thing is how do they flesh that out, it feels like it would be a smaller map (no sky / underground etc). or do they actually do a time thing now zeldas back? go in to the past to see whats going on, get stuck in the past for a while, when you build up stats etc you're back in your own time line, then be able to jump back and forward at will. maybe play as zelda for a while as people seem keen on that :S so its both a pre-prequel and an ending to the current story
"instead of reversing the effect of dragonifacation, they rendered it down to nothing but bone".
I'm a little surprised that you didn't mention the 'Dark Skeletons' right after saying that.
Those skeletons are long and slim, much like the dragons we see in-game.
The truth is there was a little more in the script but I went on the wrong lines of the Zonai dragon at the base of the Thunderhead but that's made of stone, so cut it out. However, yes, there are the skeletons in the depths also, and these almost go to show to some degree that something mustve happened to these dragons as we've already been told they are immortal. Makes sense that they tried to reverse the effect of Dragonification but failed, thus killing the dragon.
nice video😍😍
Thank you!
I mean, considering Rauru plays dumb the entire time you are competing the Graat Sky Island, I’m not surprised one bit. The dude is a master at playing dumb. 😂
🤣🤣 IKR! Can't trust a guy with ears that long, that's what I always say!
Rauru lied, people died. Either he lied or it's just a really bad plot hole, not sure which one I like better. There's the 3 dark dragon skeletons in the depths, not sure what the "dark" implies but maybe those were the tests for the goddess dragons that went awry for some reason.
So Nintendo have habits of deliberately leaving giant holes that players of the game can leave up in interpretation. I feel this is one of those. Rauru isn't squeaky clean. He lied and like you said, people died as a result. People were dying early on into his reign, starting with whatever dragons are in the land. The 3 in the depths are an interesting extra support for this, they were likely aware of the effect that eating the stones cause draconification, so it would make more sense for them to try hard to learn how to "cure" it. The dragons down in the depths could well be their attempts with no vessel of courage (link), so to speak.
Thanks for the reply, awesome video btw! Just had a thought that if the dragons became immortal, how can there be skeletons? Maybe they did figure out how to reverse draconification and the skeletons are the remains of the husks left over after purification. How else would they know how to reverse Zelda without testing, more like trial and error it seems like. There are also the 3 dragon skeletons on the surface as well, so maybe there were 2 or even more "tests" before the goddess dragons that we see today. The in game location dragon bone mire doesn't have a skeleton but assumingly has dragon bones that are used by enemies for weapons so that's another possible "test" draconification, perhaps the first as it doesn't have 2 other counterparts like the others.
No probs, I like making these videos because they illicit conversation and debate. I think that the dragons in the depths are there as failed tests for the healing process of dragonification. How do we know that these didnt have secret stones that were destroyed somehow, like Ganondorf's at the end of the game?
How do we know that these stones dont live in a constant flux of regeneration - afterall, nothing to do with this has ever been explained yet there are only 7 positions inside of the lotus flower for the stones, and we've seen that with the 3 dragons roaming the sky, there should be the 7 from the sages, rauru and Sonia, and 3 from Farosh, Naydra and Dinraal, so in reality we have 10 stones floating around.
Zelda's time travel with the stones gives it credence that the stones moved forward in time with the 3 dragons, yet the sages all have theirs also. It could well be that the dragons in the depths all had their secret stones shattered as a part of trying to reverse the process, and as we've seen with the big bad, that just ends the life of the dragon.
Cool ideas! I have some other thoughts if you'll entertain them. I've seen some theories say they are previous dragons in the series, namely Levias, The Wind Fish, and The Ocean King. But what if instead they were the goddess dragons who were created from individuals lacking in whatever is needed to create a stable dragon, whether that be a not fully attuned spirit, bad intent, or other malady.
I think the leviathan bones may have been the goddess dragons but ending up being misplaced on their path around Hyrule compared to what we see in BotW and TokT and succumbing to their opposite respective element.
Botw mentions this in the leviathan bones quest saying that they died from a drought, blizzard, and volcano eruption. Dinraal got trapped in a Hebra blizzard and froze, and Nayda got trapped around death mountain and burned perhaps due to a volcanic eruption.
Farosh is the hardest to explain as they are seen in both games around the Gerudo region, but the skeleton is found in the deepest part of the desert near the end of the map. Maybe it got lost in a sandstorm and couldn't get out then succumbed to the combination of the desert heat, cold, and constant sand.
Always nice to see a new zelda game!
Definitely is! This was definitely one of the better entries into the series as well
Oh shit do we get new Oracles?? Twinrova is still alive too
We've seen no sign of twinrova in over 10000 years apparently, I think they're pretty done in the Zelda universe.
I want my oracle's remake before a sequel to them!
@heylistengaming That's a very doubtful approach. It's a Zelda game and it's the Iconic villain, Twinrova. That just spells money for Nintendo
@@0malleyAlleyc4t I dunno man. I'd love to see them again, I really would, but I dont see it. They're iconic, but isn't it also now time that maybe they created some new iconic enemies?
@@heylistengaming I'd want like a blend between the Iconic and Innovative
I love Rauru but he really is more of a plot device than a complex character 😞
Hahaha noooooo, In typical Nintendo style, they just chose to omit a lot. I think he's more complex than the game let's on. Besides, if I treated everything like a plot device, I'd never have anything to make videos about!
@@heylistengaming no yeah I mean, that's how zelda theorizing goes. I love everything this video covers but I wish more of it was actually shown ON SCREEN. Rauru seems like he has two completely different versions - how we see him in cut scenes vs. what we can infer. I wish they weren't so different from each other.
Oh for sure I wish the same, that we see more of the other side of Rauru instead of the innocent, "I know nothing" goody two shoes he seems to.portray. I wish there was more for sure.
The dragons were ancient Zonai.
Is sort of my thought too but not necessarily ancient, more just that they were around in Raurus era, in a peaceful time of research and experimentation.
Love Legend of Zelda
Ok Nintendo's done a great job. No more Zelda games for the next four years.
4? Let's try 6 or 7 for mainline games.
A lot of people believe that the Zonai went extinct, but I think they might have gone beyond the sky and towards the stars. I personally think the Zonai are aliens that descended onto the planet after the Goddesses created the universe. They could have served Hylia along side of the Sheikah. I also think the Sheikah came with them from the stars.
This is definitely an interesting idea for sure. There's something definitely alien about them but I'm not sure they just reascended to the heavens....though it is strange that they all apparently just disappeared (script written in BOTW).
Low key this reads like ganondorf propaganda lol
Hahaha well I wouldnt say I empathise with the cause but..... 😅 🤣
This game is only 2 months old some of us actually want to learn for ourselves what the final boss looks like, you used the worst background footage possible for the time you uploaded it at
I also prewarned everyone...3 times I think. Once in a poll, asking where everyone was in the game. Once at the very start of the video. Once at the very spoilerish section. If after those warnings, people who haven't finished the game still watch, I can't be responsible. There comes a point where if someone hasn't finished the game and they watch a very spoilery video that tells them it will have spoilers, they should expect end game content, especially when one of the chapters is literally named - the endgame.
@@heylistengaming I assumed that the spoilers would be the extremely relevant memories, not the entirely irrelevant final boss
It was relevant. Every single thing I speak about I bring relevancy back to with the video. This is a part of my editing process. I'm sorry it for spoiled for you.
@@heylistengaming aside from the fact that you were speaking of draconification, there is no connection in the first half of the video. (I stopped watching after that point because it was repeatedly shown) You could very easily have used the dozen or so other draconification related clips and memories, but now I know exactly what happens in the final boss.
As far as I was aware, I clearly stated at the start of the video that it contains spoilers. That meant it was open from moment 1. There are a lot of clips of dragonification but bare in mind there are only 2 characters that dragonify throughout so clip selection is minimal.
I, again, am sorry for you if you have had that moment spoiled. It was marked for spoilers, I can't do much more than that.
I wouldn't say he knew all along on Draconification or how to reverse its effects. Afterall he does state that his older sister knew more than he did on their people, Rauru is what you would call aloof in thoughts, while he serves as the King of Hyrule, he was not always up doing his duties as described in the 13 chamberlain tablets, and often preferred goofing around and fishing. However he would not shy away from his responsibilities as king when needed. Mineru however is more acquainted with archeology and technology, much like how Zelda is, and extensively researched the history of her people, in fact her quarters within Rauru's castle shows she has shelves upon shelves of books and literatures that details the entire history of the Zonai, and one subject she extensively researched just happened to be Draconification and its effects and why it was forbidden to perform the act. -- There are still untold stories and mysteries that surrounds the Zonai and why they appeared and held Secret Stones of power. One theory suggests they were looking for people worthy of wielding the Secret Stones to protect them from misuse, but it could only be granted to those who already had magic power of their own that they could use, so not just anybody could take and use a Secret Stone, since the stones themselves doesn't grant them powers, it amplifies the power they already have within themselves.
Counterpoint to why Rauru took Zelda to see Mineru, he was unsure how Zelda could return to her own timeline, seeing as she unknowingly used her own power with the Secret Stone to send herself back in time. For Rauru, he thought about Mineru to see if she knew how to use the stone to get back to her own time, since she apparently knows more about the Secret Stones abilities than Rauru, despite having one himself and has the ability of Light Powers. In Rauru's mind he thought maybe there was a way to manipulate the stone to get Zelda home as she had both powers of Time and Light, with her Light Powers being the most strongest of her abilities. However Zelda spending time with Sonia she learns how to control time on objects and returning them to their previous point in time, as Sonia demonstrated during their time sitting out in the garden drinking tea, and again later when the Fake Zelda shows up, Zelda using her own abilities this time to manipulate objects.
Would I consider Rauru wise? Yes to an extent, however it was his hubris _(his words)_ that set them on the path of what transpired or would transpire. While he understood Ganondorf has ulterior motives and was evil, he lacked the foresight to know his true intentions when it was clear that he had sights on the Secret Stones after witnessing its powers when Rauru stuck down the school of Molduga's approaching the Great Plateau, Ganondorf only pleaded fealty to Rauru to get closer to the Secret Stones, also for Rauru to say to Zelda that the timeline she came from probably isn't one where they met originally, but I would say that was a bit of a lie there, because Zelda wouldn't have gotten ahold of a Secret Stone if it wasn't for the arm of Rauru sealing Ganondorf in place. It's a pivotal point in time, an event that will always happen regardless of what transpired, but I guess Zelda failed to mention the fact how she got the Secret Stone in the first place, and how the mummified Ganondorf knew Zelda's name, and Link's name also. Ganondorf also specifically mentions Rauru in their first encounter, that there hadn't made sense, not only Zelda failing to tell Rauru beforehand after meeting for the first time, but it wasn't until later after Sonia's passing that she mentions the man she saw in her future timeline was the sealed Ganondorf, why she fails to mention anything until this point makes me wonder how Zelda even forgot in the first place. She was always meant to meet Rauru after being sent back in time, and while she could of told the critical details of what she encountered in the future could have somewhat shifted how things played out, and they did... sorta... the hand of Rauru saves Link of course, and Shrines of Light suddenly appeared, along with the Sky Islands and with it Gloom and Chasms across the lands, everything appeared as if out of nowhere the moment Zelda was sent back in time and Hyrule Castle was raised into the sky, which means this was meant to happen all along.
Shrines of Light to purge and seal the evil from Link after his first encounter with Ganondorf and gloom. As for how much time has passed during the time Zelda disappears and Link disappears and reappears in the sky on a massive island, it's hard to say how much time has passed since, it could be more than a week or two had passed as search parties were sent out after Hyrule Castle was raised into the sky, everybody was on lookout for Zelda and Link and even had posters handed out to various places.
Alright, I think I can finally actually prove my point on Rauru knowing and understanding his powers a lot more, and the sages powers, a lot more than is implied in the final few scenes of the game.
--> He doesnt know for sure that this will work, especially with Sonia's power over Mineru's.
--> He actually trials it when the Molduga are ordered to attack, causing the kamehameha wave. Now it's not known whether or not he ACTUALLY knows that you can channel more power into it or not at this point, via the use of other sages and stones, and this defence of his seems like he actually planned it, judging by how he just understands thats what he needs to do.
--> The game therefore lays the groundwork in telling us that this is how he will solve Zelda being turned into a dragon.
--> With THIS knowledge at his fingertips, the knowledge that he can amplify both sets of powers - his and whomever he uses to fuse powers with as such, he actually tells Zelda, in effect, that her position in that world is to turn into a dragon to get the master sword back to Link.
Rauru planned it all along.