Remington Model 12 C ~ Pederson genius, or another mistake?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- Let's take a look at one of the most famous .22 pump rifles in American history, the Remington Model 12. Regarded as a genius by John M. Browning, Pederson's rifle exemplifies design engineering that is praised by many as an example of that genius, while scorned by others as testimony to over-engineering complexity. See what this rifle is about, and what I think of it.
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I caught myself breaking out in a big smile when Benny gives you that adoring look.
"I'm very well versed in firearms" Well THAT'S a sevear understatement lol.
This man IS the master!
I own a552spd master it's a real dependable, accurate 22 rifle it will hang with the best
My dad bought it new in 1976,it was handed down to me, killed many squirrel thru the years
How ironic, I was just showing my old Model 12 to my daughter telling her how we need to take it out and shoot it one of these days. I haven't fired it in years, however I remember it having extraction issues as well if it wasn't impeccably clean. I inherited mine from my grandfather, it's the rifle my dad learned to shoot with. Not in as good of shape as yours, serial number is about 11000 lower, definitely loaded with sentimental value. Thank you for another informative video Gunblue, you're greatly appreciated.
My grandpa gave me a model 12A before he passed its in pretty rough shape but it is priceless ro me
This guy has a Wealth of knowledge. I live in the same town in NH.
Did you get an Autographed 8x10 ?
Buy the man a beer for me. Maybe a case. I feel indebted to the man for all the knowlege he has freely shared. Good and accurate knowledge.
Hi from England's Derbyshire Peak District. I enjoyed every moment of this chat. So thanks very much. I have recently completed a refurbishment of my 12C which was caused by the firing pin snapping in half and jamming everything up. I bought a replacement new firing pin via "Brownells UK" who probably obtained it from "Numrich". My rifle's serial number dates it as manufactured in 1915. So another one more than a Century old. It looks exactly like yours. However at some point in time it has been re-sleeved by a previous owner and the end of the muzzle has been stamped in a circular fashion accordingly by the gunsmiths : "Parker rifled", being the "Parker-Hale" company of England. The accuracy is amazingly good and it cycles very smoothly probably due to 100 years of running in. I have noticed a difficulty on re-assembly where the cartridge retainer is little awkward to fit back in place. There is a method to it that takes a while to figure out. I will not be parting with this rifle anytime soon as I have fallen in love with it.
Im currently deployed over seas as we speak and i have a Browning Hi Power sitting on my hip most days. Just goes to show how under appreciated John Moses Browning really is.
The man is back . I'm so glad to get notified when your on . Keep them coming and stay warm 👍
I love my 1947 Winchester 61 My mother gave it to me 3 years ago in near mint condition. Smooth pump action and a 24 inch barrel-short long and long riffle amo. they just don't make Winchesters and Remingtons like these anymore . 😞
I recently picked up a model 12a. Dates 1919. Almost mint except for small crack in both stocks from people tightening the screws too much 🙄. Sat in safes for many many years. Feeding issue was never resolved. I picked it uo cheap. Feeding issue was caused by buttstock bolt being tightened too much. The end of the bold prevents the hammer from going all the way back. Add another washer or two onto the bolt and problem solved. Cycles flawlessly. 😁
I had the Remington model 24 semi auto . You would load from the middle of the stock @ it was also a break down rifle. A great little 22 @ one of my favorite guns i owned . I purchased the model 24 when i was 16 years young. I'd love to own a model 12 someday just to practice shooting on a budget. Great Memories .
Thank you sir - God Bless you
Thank you for going through the takedown & cleaning process.
I have one that I've never fired, but now I can properly maintain it & give it a go!
Cheers!
I have a 12C that was purchased brand new by my great-grandfather in 1920. It's still a great shooter; especially for a rifle that's 102 years old.
I got my great grandfather model 12 dates 1909.
Just picked one of these up at a big gun show. It's a 12-C, 24" barrel octagonal and in excellent shape. Clean bore and no rust. Someone really took care of it. Made in 1929 according to the serial number. I can't wait to shoot it! Thanks for the take down instructions. I would have never figured it out without help.
I have my grandfather's Model 12-C that he passed down to me over half a century ago. It works very smoothly and has no extraction problems, but that may be related to it's 715,000+ serial number late production. As a young teen he taught me the care and safe handling of it, and it is a prized reminder of a fine man with values and ethics much as you yourself exhibit. Thank you for your wisdom and your fine example for others.
Had a straight stocked from 1930. Found it hanging on a nail in an old shed above the door. Lost in a divorce. That is a nice rifle you have!!
The saying "I got a gun for my wife. It was the best trade i ever made"...
I have one an old friend gave me,It's Cherished ! Thank You Sir ‼️
I don't have a model 12 but I can appreciate it's design. The magazine tube moves back and forth as you work the action. This is also true for the model 141 Remington pump made in 30, 32 and 35 Remington. That rifle was manufactured around the same time period. Thanks for the knowledge and great information you provided.
Thanks for another excellent episode. I, too, have a Remington Model 12. Mine has a round barrel with the straight combed stock. It is a family 'heirloom' handed down to me from my father who also had it handed down to him by an uncle. Some versions of this rifle were known as parlor rifles, used in circuses or carnivals in their shooting booths. The one I have is extremely accurate. I had an uncle who was able to shoot dimes out of the air with it. I don't shoot it much anymore since it is in very good shape and a prized possession of mine. I keep it liberally coated with a rust preservative inside and out while stored in my gun safe.
I've heard them called Gallery guns because a variation model was used in shooting galleries. The 22 short model.
This Guy is the "Friendly Giant of Firearms!" And a very interesting informative and soothing learning experience. Just like the real "Friendly Giant" If you're an older Canadian or other.
First 22 I shot. My Grampa's, thanks for the memories! My cousin was blessed with that one. I was blessed with a Model 12 and a 32 spl. Thanks for the memories!
Model 12 win.
One 22 I will never forget was the Winchester model 63 that my father-in-law let me take squirrel hunting in Louisiana. I asked him if he would sell it and I got a quick answer. NO...
Wonderful piece of history. Thank you for sharing. God bless your family.
You sir are a national treasure...sure a wealth of knowledge, presented in such a saying that makes viewing such an enjoyable experience for the viewer. God bless👍
Thank You Once Again, Glad You have covered this Firearm. I inherited a 12c in Very Good Condition and I have had a lot of Fun Plinking this past Summer. Good to see You Sir, Still My Favorite.God Bless You
I found your channel recently, and I am really enjoying your videos. Informative and entertaining.
I inherited my grandpa's model 12 back in the 60's. It had the same issue with brass getting stuck in the chamber from all the corrosive powder and I doubt my grandpa ever cleaned it. I bought old stock lower velocity rounds and was able to cycle those without sticking and used it for years that way. I finally had a new barrel sleeve installed in the 70's and it's been terrific since then. Planning to hand it down to my grandkids one day
Thanks for the heads-up on the complexities. I was considering bidding on one. I will stick with my Winchester 1890 for now.
If you want a vintage steel pump, I'd personally suggest a Winchester Model 61, as demonstrated in my short Christmas video. It's action is so reliable and simple that Winchester incorporated it into their fabulously reliable Model 9422 lever action.
What a pleasure watching your videos sir, approximately 4.5 hours worth this evening. I understand that it may seem excessive, however today, I rediscovered your channel after losing my followed channels a few years ago. Akin to coming across a comfortable cardigan thought lost to time. Very happy to see you and Benny. Also hearing you speak of your wife in a more current video. Sharing your knowledge with us is terrific, but one's self and family…. Priceless
Thank you 😢
Neat rifle. I can't say I've ever seen one or if I did, I didn't know what I was looking at. I'll keep my eyes open for one the next time I go to a gun show. Thanks for posting!
Hope Benny is doing okay, take care and be well!
It would have been nice to have a similar instructional video on hand when I dismantled my new /old FN Browning "trombone" for a thorough cleaning .It also has the magasine tube moving with the slide. Love the workmanship in these old guns.
Friend of mine has the model 12 and brings it out from time to time it’s a very nice shooting rifle. I own the model 14 in 30 Remington and the 141 in 35 Remington. The 141 is an OK rifle, while the model 14 is an excellent rifle!! I feel as you do, the lever action design is smoother and more reliable, but I’m sure Remington was desiring something different at that time.
My uncle Ed had one in 1970. He pointed to a bird in a tree about 100 yards away and told me to shoot the small branch it was on. It couldn't have been more than an inch in diameter. He sure was suprised when the limb fell and the bird flew. I still remember thinking it was a heavy barrel but then I was a pretty skinny 12 year old.
Very nice presentation, I learned a lot. My Model 12 (was my dads) is Dec, 1929, Octagon barrel, Ser. # 797009. This 22 has a nice, substantial feel for a small gun. I always enjoy firing it. I also thought it was a neat option feature to be able to unload it by releasing the slide and ejecting the shells by pumping it. Very fun and economical to shoot. I love this little guy.
Thank you for this video, well done...I now better understand my Model 12. I always look forward to your videos.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. It's priceless to me
Mr Gunblue490
It's always a pleasure to spend some time learning and listening to you.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Very well done 👍
Americans had Great men back in the early 1900s . Thanks for the video . Great Teacher .
My first rifle - at age 11. My grandfather bought this rifle in 1915. Serial number is in the 294,000 range, so they must have been hot sellers in their early years. It was apparently rebarreled at some point in time as it has a round profile now. I bought it from my grandmother a couple years after gramps died in the early 1950s for $10. It has become a family heritage piece that may go to my grandson. One of the real weaknesses of this model is the firing pin. Many have broken because of the complicated, but frail, design. Many years ago Numerich made replacements.
My grandfather owned one and it is the gun I learned to shoot, a few years ago I had the opportunity to buy one and paid too much but I wanted it so...as to my Grandfather's Remington 12C, it went to my cousin and apparently it hasn't been seen since and no one knows what happened to it. how sad. I also bought a Winchester Model 61 and am happy with both. My 12C was made in November of '28 and the Mod. 61 in 1935. The Mod 12C has the Lyman (sp) sights that are somewhat rare.
Always a pleasure seeing videos and knowledgeable conversation. How’s the tractor 🚜 and ❄️ this year?❤️🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Winter has been very mild with little snow. It won't be long before I swap the snowblower for the rototiller and mower!
Thank you, nice instructoinal
The 12C I own is by far my favourite .22 rifle, though mine has a factory tang sight. They're somewhat complicated, but I would not say extremely so. The magazine tube doubling as the action bar always struck me as a clever simplifcation, though it does necessitate a different feed mechanism than most.
That tang sight is rare to find, very expensive to buy.
Pederson used an incredibly complicated system of many overly complex, expensively machined parts to simply release a cartridge from the magazine. The result is an action that takes four times more effort to shuck, ejects lazily, is historically prone to malfunction, and extremely difficult to work on. Other than that, it's a great, fun gun.
@@GunBlue490 Other than the Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
Thank you sir for passing your knowledge and experience to the next generation, so we don't ruin our beloved guns
Beautiful rifle. Thanks for posting. My dad had a Winchester 62A.
Spot on about Pedersons complexity. If you're a fan of fine machining like I am these rifles and the big bore brothers models 14, 14 1/2, and the 141 all exhibit that. Now you know why Remington went broke in the early years and UMC bought them! The model 12 did not go away in 1936 but was modernized into the 121 and produced till 1954. Basically, the same rifle.
Very informative, thank you.
As if the knowledge isn’t enough we also get blessed by Benny presence.
I own a nice 12C... lucky to purchase it from the grandson of the original owner. It is a smooth operating and consistently reliable rifle.
Wonderful rifle. Was in fact my first gun inherited from my Great Uncle (whose father bought the gun for his 12th birthday).
Unfortunately it seems the chamber is not in the best condition and the casings gets stuck after shooting.
Hopefully sometime I can reline it and get it back to pristine conditions.
I have three model 12s, apparently and early one without the model number, a model 12a, and a model 12 in 22WRF, marked 22 special.
nice video...I own a 141 Gamemaster in 35 rem, another Pederson design...that gamemaster is a nice shooter.
All are nice, but the pistol grip M12s just look better to me. Very nice rifle!
I own a 12-A that I got from grand dad, it has a period scope attached, it looks and shoots great!
Another very interesting and educational video... again Thank you Sir for your time sharing your vast knowledge...
Benny ❤️❤️❤️
Here in Europe we are rapidly approaching a total ban on lead ammunition. I think it might be the end of some of the smaller calibers.
Please consider making a video about the subject. It will almost certainly happen within a couple of years.
Enjoyed the video. I Like old guns the best. Just found your channel last week and I have learned a lot. I look forward to your upcoming videos.
I really like your sweater Pops.
This is great as are all of your videos. I’d love to see a review of the rem 121 one day if you run across one. Thanks
Great video. I have one with a round barrel, it’s been in the family since new. It’s going on five generations.
I agree with you , I have owned a REM. 121 , basically the same rifle . I also own. Win. Model 62A & a Win 61 . I had some minor feeding issues with the REM & sold it . I still own the two Winchesters . I also own a Remington Model 51 in .380 acp , A rather odd duck of a pistol .
Great video
Another fascinating video, thanks. A minor point though, the colour balance on your camera when you are sat on the chair could do with some adjustment if possible as it’s a bit too biased towards the warm tones. Each of these videos must take longer to produce than myself & most other viewers would guess at but rest assured the end results are much appreciated.
I attempted to correct the color imbalance as best I could. I've no idea why my auto white balance didn't do its job. I'll probably go back to doing it manually with a white card.
Thank you for all your very informative videos.
Is there a trick to installing the cartridge retainer? Thank you.
Great review!
I have to admit for some time, I think you and I lived parallel lives, same age, same interests, same kubota in the garage, great entertainment on your channel!!!!
Thank you Sir! Once again an interesting video. I wish I could get one like that but there are probably not many, if any, of these available here in Norway. Regardless. Looking forward to the next update.
GB leveling up with his vid editing skillz
Good talk, thanks! I’m looking for one, the right one.
That is a beautiful looking rifle, I have a browning trombone that looks very similar.
I would like you to make a video in regards to people drilling a touch hole in replica flintlocks made in India/Pakistan. I see too many videos proclaiming that with a drill bit owners of these wall hangers magically transform wall hangers into real firearms.
These people just reinforce that common sense is not common.
My father has a 121 fieldmaster that he head shot squirrels with. That rifle also dropped many hogs a few beef steers and at least one deer. Great rifle.
Can someone help me with a question? I have a Remington model 12.
It's in fair condition but shows visible wear and who knows whos had it apart in the past.. Ive noticed that my lifter flops back and forth if you turn the rear of the gun upside down when it is apart.
Is the lifter suppose to have a spring that holds it in the downward position? Or is it suppose to move/flop freely when the gun is apart?
The Reason For The Magazine Tube Moving With The Pump Handle Was Because He Had To Work Around John Browning’s Patented Design For The 1890 Winchester Rifle I Believe 😀😐😀
i think its the same rifle as the Browning trombone. wich came back in production in 1999
Have you made any videos on running steel Ammo in AR 15s? If not, could you please do one? I didn’t see a video in your library, if I missed it, I apologize.
What the future holds for Remington is sadly quite a mystery. From what I've heard the investment group that bought its assets hasn't even applied for a federal manufacturer's license, which takes months to get, and hasn't said where it would start production. As far as anyone knows none of the main people involved have firearms experience.
In response to your comments about Pedersen’s design choices/decisions… well a lot of them perhaps all of them were dictated by the fact that John Browning got there first. Pedersen had to design around Browning patents so that Remington wouldn’t have to pay royalties. As far as complexity and machine work… labor was cheap back then, even before the depression started
Folks have been offering those excuses for Pedersen for decades, but they hold no water.
Patents are very specific and aren't generalized concepts that lock out "fundamental" established common engineering principles. Even Browning was governed by preexisting patents. You might get a patent on how a pin passes through a piece of steel, or how a bolt is shaped, but not on the concept of the bolt, or steel or the pin. Lots of gun engineering was going on then, and has continued for decades with ideas that worked around his and other patents, and that's certainly not an issue exclusive to guns. As an example, Arthur Savage's Model 99 came after Browning, and is quite a bit simpler, and was from an entirely fresh slate.
Successful companies seek talent that thinks outside the box, no matter what they make. There's no room for excuses, and no Hall of Crying Towels for the Pedersens in this world.
Cheap production is a myth. There was never, ever, a period in American history of "cheap" production. Even when workers were grossly underpaid, everyone competed in the same marketplace with the same labor pool, and put their goods into the same consumer market for the same dollars. The Great Depression had the same effect on manufacturing and consumers alike. A nine dollar .22 in 1905 was just as costly to produce and buy as a $300 .22 is today. Every gun I ever bought in the last 55 years took the same chunk from my wallet.
But, simplicity is the hallmark of production design, and is the winner in the competitive world. Elaborate designs may win prizes at science fairs, but it won't put good bottom lines on a company spreadsheet. Pedersen didn't get that, and Remington apparently didn't either for too long. He used four complex parts where one or even none would have sufficed. One can appreciate the intense thought and engineering it takes to watch a Rube Goldberg contest winner start out with a steel ball rolled down a ramp and end up starting a car five minutes later, but it really makes more sense to just turn a key.
I think perhaps the guys who designed my gas can spout and spring loaded toilet paper roller were related to Pedersen.
@@GunBlue490 pretty strong opinions on the matter and not much good to say about Pedersen. Perhaps you can do a video about your firearms designs/patents
I was looking at a Remington 7600, slide/pump action rifle. Chambered in 30-06. Good condition with scope, for 550 CAD. Good value? Are these hard to find parts for? Your firearm prowess would be appreciated, kind sir. Great channel BTW!!!
....LGS ( and gunsmith) has one on consignment...just saw it yesterday...gonna stop by today and find out how much
Retired camera repairman (doing research for an SF novel) -- this sounds like the Compur shutter of the firearms world (and at that, a later synchro model with E.V. linkage and maybe even SLR interaction).
Why use five parts if twenty will suffice?
Yes, indeed, why??
Your rifle looks very good, shame about the bore. I have an earlier version in the same configuration but it isn't marked with a model number. It is nowhere near as nice looking, all brown. The bore was a stovepipe so I had it relined. Mine had once had the coveted tang sight, now long gone, they are very expensive now.
I'm looking forward to my second COVID vaccine so I can visit your gunshop friend in Ossipee, I live on the other side of the mountain from there.
I have the same 22,except mine has the round barrel,and I have the matching 32/20. Both guns look identical, but the 32/20 has a bigger barrel
Please do a cartridge profile on the 338 Winchester magnum.💕
I have a Model 12. And it will shoot ,feed and eject all day long! I guess I’m lucky. I’m curious what it’s worth in fair-good condition!
They don’t make them like they used to I wish they would take time and pride in guns like that
One of my uncles in Penn had one of those. I thought it was fun to shoot back when I was a kid.
This comment is off the subject. Can you talk about the 8 mm Remington magnum and why it disappeared?? Thank you.
ROCK - ON !!!
Ok have a marlin model 60 leave it setting loaded for a few days will not fire , load next round and it will any ideas ?
As usual a very good show.
my father owned a remington similar to this one in .22 special calibre. my uncle owned a round barrel model 12 in .22 s,l,lr. ever seen a .22 special? solid 45 grain slug seated in the cartridge case.
Sweet rifle
Outstanding historical and technical review Sir, thank you. I have a new to me model 12c, bought online, so I know what to look for and into with her.......maybe I could find a parts gun just because?
If it's working, I wouldn't worry about spare parts. Just have fun!
@@GunBlue490 thanks Sir, I have yet to shoot her betwixt the snow and workload
Interesting, but you failed to mention the Model 121, the successor to the Model 12.
Explain what rule applies that I must mention the successors of guns. The title is the Model 12; and I suggested nothing more.
No rule, but you did mention several other firearms during the course of your discussion. Since the Model 121 is an updated version of the Model 12, it seems reasonable that it would warrant at least a brief mention.
What model had the rear peep sight?
I have a question on my 12B that you may know the answer to. I was taught at a very young age to not "Dry Fire" any gun, especially a rim fire. I have seen chamber damage to .22s that have been repeatedly dry fired. So will the firing pin contact the chamber in my 12B if I dry fired it? Thanks much, Wayne
Never…..NEVER…. dry fire a 22….EVER !
It’s a “rim fire”…..which means the firing pin strikes the edge of the bolt face if there is no round or snap cap in the chamber, causing peening of the bolt face.
Oh…..you can THINK about it…..but dooooon’t do it !!!
I have a Model 12 With stampings of 1914
Very similar to the Browning Trombone in action function. The tube moving is a simplified design in reality.
Simplified complexity. Far more moving, intricate parts than necessary, and very prone to malfunctioning.
@@GunBlue490 I don't see much of a difference between the two mechanically, mind you I haven't got a Remington 12 to compare to my Trombones so I am only going on the videos of the 12. The Trombone definitely seems more complex in the break down, which I have done.