Ridiculous rant by Shiv. He starts off by saying that Indian Army is a circus of various calibers and weaponry....and then goes on to ask why can't each different Army unit be equipped with different rifles for trial. Dafaq?
@@harshalsingh2750 To what effect will the trials be? I do advocate Indian made stuff, but the ship has sailed on the 'Standard issue rifle". Once chosen, ALL units will be equipped with the SAME rifle...that's why it's called 'Standard issue'. This debate should have happened 5 years ago, not now. Shiv is speaking like a ntcase...aka journalist.
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon, *India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
Every Indian defence enthusiast is a blood pressure patient for years now. It would have been almost funny if it wasn't about national defence with 2 nuclear armed countries threatening our borders. It is incredible how many terrible decisions our military machinery makes consistently for decades. Our military procurement process is highly corrupt. We have been saved so far purely by raw courage and superior manpower of our soldiers, airmen and sailors (whose quality govt is hellbent on degrading with Agniveer). A time will come when the lack of strategic vision, band aid solutions, cost cutting and corruption will bite us back badly on the battlefield.
Dear Sir, Here is a reply I got from an Ex Military Top Brass " The largest Indian Defense Export is actually the US. There are as whole lot of components and sub assemblies and assemblies which get shipped from India. Coming from these are a few Offset Agreements which need to be honoured. Therefore a certain number of small arms is the easy route since it will function even after sanctions( the usual US SOP). Secondly the US Sig Saur 7.62mm rifle is a commendable weapon and no harm in getting them. Thirdly most of our Pvt Sector produces weapons are yet to be scaled for Bulk Manufacturing and are thus inducted in smaller numbers for specific sub organisations of our forces"
only army in the world which came up with genius idea of changing barrel and use both 5.56 and 7.62 with one arm. And also expect frontline soldiers to fiddle around changing this assembly, then figure out how mcuh ammo of each type to carry. and that guy is still struggling to get rid of 'hathiyar mien rok'
The only country 🧐 I can see why your army is pussy footing on choosing a standard for ammo and assaul rifle... You're so inward looking, ease up, will you, learn about the history of small arms a bit more; the Italian ARX160 is a fine modular assault rifle was gonna be your rifle, if Mexico can look outward and come up with a standard rifle (they looked at the German G36 to produce the FX 05 Xiuhcoatl) why not industrial India 🇮🇳
Well the Serbian army has inducted the M19 multi caliber rifle with quick change barrel. But the difference is they have a world class company in the form of Zastava and we have ummm....disappointment... So the Indian army demanded too much too early which even the foreign firms couldn't fulfill at that time.
@@surajbiradar9827 I have always wondered why India can't collaborate with a country like Serbia or Finland (before she went into the fold of Nato) -- their AK's are so damn good, and they are little nations... Couldn't India give them a good deal to develop her own AK variant off of their versions??? It's disappointing, a big democratic country with a well tried home industrial base to be undecided about choosing a standard assault rifle for her fine army!!
@@flamezealousIndian military procurement and pragmatism doesn't always go hand in hand. I have a list of 'should haves' just in small arms. In mid 50's Bobby McDonald wanted to give tech of Ar10 and Ar15 to anybody who'll buy those rifles. IA even liked them but our MOD prevented it and went aping the British with the slr because apparently krishna menon didn't want NATO standard and ironically we did exactly that in desperation after the Chinese gave us a rude shock. A new nation like us should have taken help from some advanced weapon maker to set up a weapons factory. But we have a British left curse on our back which doesn't want to leave us alone and that's the ordinance factories. They only performed decently when they were managed by the British but after independence IOF fell to the typical rotten babudom culture and. There were multiple rifles that could have been perfect for us like valmet rk62/95 or sig 550. But the false ego of our babudom doesn't let us make pragmatic decisions.
@@beryanbeyaan8047 Did he insult you? Why did you do that? shithead, he is right. Bureaucracy has been india's worst fault... If you dont believe me go and do some filework with them at local tehsils
@@AlphaBeta007 It's not only babus, don't put it all on babus, if our generals say yes to a indigenous weapons, there is no way in hell a babu can block it. Majority of blame for all of this phoren mal fiasco rests with army generals, who surprisingly keep getting gifted apartments in Florida, and foreign scholarships for their undeserving children out of goodness of foreign colleges hearts
The impressive stuff India has developed is mostly stuff that others won't export to us. Its amazing what we can achieve when it's not available for purchase.
Someone told the same thing about Eugene Stoner's AR-10 rifle and Armalite factory once.. now the entire world is buying and building a licensed copy of AR 15. The problem with India is lack of knowledge and too much nose poking of government officials in every matter, even if it is out of their domain
Thats true. Even americaan sf uses german weapons just like many other countries. Just because its local doesnt mean we havr to outright buy them. We live in a globalised economy where everything feels local in terms of availability. The gov should continue to give small contracts for this startups to improve and as time pass hopefully we'll have something great.
Very good podcast nailed it. Army selected sig because it was the only company which had bulk weapons lying around in their warehouse . Army got it in cheap as compared to other suppliers . Again economies of scale worked here. Had our army or govt supported our private industry initially handholded them then it could have been our industry . But again this is not last order many more will come in future . It’s high time army support Indian private companies nurture them . Then hold competition among them to supply high quality weapons
Shame on DRDO and Ordnance factories who in last 50 years can’t even deliver a proper rifle!! We lost more braves due to faulty equipment both in Kargil and Op Parakram than in any enemy action!! All projects Tejas, Kaveri engine, AEW&S system, INSAS rifles, navigation system etc are delayed by decades with no accountability, multiple cost overruns and end result is zero 🤦😭
Sig ammunition is very expensive so we are using LMG ammo that produce a greater recoil and lead to barrel bulge so army is not happy with it. AK203 is not that robust it uses polymer Piccadilly half length rails and polymer rails are not stiff enough so the sights mounted on it does not provide accuracy....
Same may happen with ASMI SMG developed by Colnel Bansod... Kudos for Shiv Aroor for speaking openly and critically on such significant issue... And salute to CEO of SSS Defence... Major issue in defence sector in India is less expenditure on Research and Development both in Govt & Pvt sector. Colt developed about 20-25 variants of M-16 , intially it has issues and failed in Vietnam war against Ak47. Similarly AK family has so many variants which are developed over a long period of Time. Whereas INSAS has only 2-4 variants. Similarly MP5 being a wonderful weapon has undergone continuous development and has many variants...
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon, *India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon, *India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
The simplest are most difficult to build. I have used AK since 1997, its so maint free in all weather we are unable to take lead in mettalurgy & composite thats probably a reason why we are unable to make good basic wpn for Inf
Army too has changed its position from 5.56mm round meant to disable a enemy from 7.62mm which will down the enemy.But SSS defence has a point.Even off we see the colt from Vietnam and now it has evolved.
This is pure bullshit!! The person/committee framing the Qualitative Requirements doesn't have a clue or watches to much super hero movies!!! They have selected a DMR as an assault rifle !! One thing I just can't understand is the Tavor Rifles use the same. 5.56 * 45mm round as the insas and its used bymost of the special forces of India without any problems in fighting terrorists while the Insas fails to do so and thats why noe you need both the Ak 203 and Sig 716!!! Its just fking ridiculous!!!
If army people are definitely getting kick backs or else no one would make such stupid decisions. It’s a joke. Look at IAF too always underprepared and always behind.
India decided on the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge in 1963. We had the our own version of the FN FAL rifles. We tried replacing them with 5.56x45 NATO cartridge and made our Infamous INSAS rifle. COIN operations showed the cartridge to be underpowered and the rifle a tad unreliable. So now we are moving back to 7.62x51mm NATO and the Soviet 7.62x39mm intermediate. We are purchasing SIG 716 for the former and AK203 for the latter. The only problem I see is SIG716 not being manufactured in India. I think we should ensure that happens. SIG SAUER should be asked set up a rifle factory in India.
Every country has definite strong points. India exports its world renowned IT sector, while USA exports weaponry. No need to belittle the nation. Can’t be great at everything.
Please bring this issue up in Jaipur Dialogues. Maj Gen Rajiv Narayanan has a quite contrary view on this which must be corrected. It’s high time we must hold people accountable.
This cliche comparison of space program, shipbuilding, missile tech to making firearms is very misleading tbh. For eg. The UK builds SSNs, aircraft carriers, tanks etc but still made a shitty service rifle in the form of L85. France builds Rafael fighter jets, submarines, tanks and still has to import german rifles for its army. On the other hand Czech Republic doesn't have a space program nor does it build any big defense equipments but this tiny country produces one of the finest guns in the world. Same can be said about countries like Finland, Switzerland, Serbia and Austria. Analysing this peculiar pattern gives you some interesting insights. The countries which produce good firearms have two things in common, human resource and a dynamic gun culture which sustains a thriving industry. If you look into firearms history one notices that iconic firearms innovation is driven by singular talented gunsmiths and engineers like John browning, Eugene stoner, mikhail Kalashnikov, samuel colt, Daniel wesson, hugo shmeisser, vasily degtyaryov, dieudonne saive etc. India doesn't have any of the two. After the 1878 arms act india's once thriving domestic gun culture was killed by the British and sadly even the independent government and bureaucrats have left no stone unturned to kill domestic private firearms manufacturing and ownership and monopolised it in the inept ordnance factories. There is not one formal gun smithing course offered anywhere in india!!. How do you expect good firearms in this situation?.
Here's the absolute truth. Sig Sauer 716 is not used by the US army. It's a gun meant for Law enforcement and civilian market. AK-203 is export version (read : inferior) of a gun Russian military rejected from the outset. all that fully kitted out less recoil versions featured on their promo are only available for the Russians.
Shiva’s heart is in the right place & I get the point about supply chain nightmare with so many guns used. But let’s also consider pov of our forces who are actually putting their lives on the line everyday, trusting their rifles. Trust isn’t built in a day. Instead of taking a binary approach why not a have a roadmap for gradually inducting indigenous small arms, starting with forces deployed in relatively less demanding battle conditions. By judiciously tracking performance, feedback & satisfaction in various battle conditions will create a database for new small arm inducted & their comparative performance, allowing the vendor to make changes or provide additional options if needed. In the meanwhile let the frontline forces use the weapon they trust to be more effective in the battlefield. As our own small arms mature & gain trust, we can take a decision of introducing it to our frontline security forces. The most important thing is to achieve our combat objectives, once we have data backing its ability to that, the transition to our own small arms will be much smoother.
100% agree with Shiv! No justification for this stupid decision. Second thing is the MoD has tomtommed the AK203, 600,000 rifles will be delivered. What are we going to do with those weapons?
@@pnstudios925 For your information, the AK203 manufacturing took about 5 years to begin after its supposed opening. With that level of Delays in defence procurement, i can hardly see any future. The reason they took these sig sauers was because the AK is taking too much time, You need to see whats going on
@@pnstudios925 It was only meant for frontline units but since the AKs didnt arrive quick enough, they had to order more and equip non frontline troops with Sig sauers too. Its because of delays
Because of INSAS rifle quality domestic rifles mfgs lost good image infront of soldiers. SIG and AK203 is now famous among Indian soldiers. AK203 local made with indigenous content is good. Assault rifle is low tech now. All defense startups should work on Jet engines, Fighter jets, Missiles, Radars, Drones and other high tech products. ❤❤
Why will India Inc put its money on R&D if the Government decides to buy everything from abroad? In any new product development, there will be iterations. The Government has to hold hands and provide support, otherwise we can defer the target of becoming a developed nation to a few centuries down the road - if we exist as a country then.
Sir if any one comment about bjp policy and how they are running this country they immediately say anti national. Thanks to bjp supporter youtubers. And our vishwa guru ji 🙏. No hope
it is the second instalment of what has already arrived in India .... contract was for 1.5 lakh rifles that was signed initially , but yes neglecting local armament industry is a shame . China makes its own weapons and will supply pakistan readily . India will be like Ukraine, but with no backers like the NATO to save them, in case of a war which is bound to happen sooner than later.
56:15 It’s NOT TERRIBLE. That 800 crore is the difference between life or death on the battlefield. I understand the need to create the standard infantry kit in house. But that concern should always be second to provide these brave soldier with the absolutely best gear, no matter where it is manufactured.
It so shocking to see that we still are importing basic infantry rifles even today especially now when we have Indian startups making them. Govt appears to be doing only lip service when it comes to defence modernization and indigenisation.
Delusion ,fake Nationalism or false notion of love towards nation can doom this country Reality, Rationalism, logic, Science can contribute towards betterment in various Departments of Country And also sometimes need to have faith in fellow indian work, creation and theory
It's not the case, actually.. the thing is lack of knowledge about firearms.. see, we put people in positions where they do not belong.. if it was upto them Indian Amry would still be using. 303 SMLEs.. private MNC is a fairly new concept in India still now these old politicians don't even know the first word of privatization they think how can a 20 year old know what is good for the country plus corruption from Bofors to even fertilizers every thing has it's own story.. so forget about government contracts it can only be done only if there is a total regime change no old politicians and only qualified educated young politicians then only Indian armed forces will get the top of the line equipments.. and not government Military is also to be blamed for this
Try to procure indigenous private rifle for BSF and Assam rifles by testing them and then force the Army to accept it. BSF / Assam Rifles why because they are drpolyed along the border and CI zones
Great topic and discussion, but you need to change the host Dev to someone who is more articulate. He cannot express his points and has a really bad accent even by Indian standards. Habad tabad ghach pach.. what are you saying dude? Also, Shiv you need to interview Army leadership and ask these questions point blank. Why don't you ask them when you get the chance? Indian military leadership should be help accountable for these blunders.
Very informative podcast. Problem is the defence provurement Bureaucracy and the vesyed interests. It isbpathetic that our our Army has no Standards in place in terms of Amunation and caliber. Wish our Govt wakes up on requirement of our own domestically developed in India. Jsi Hind
I am a US citizen and possess multiple battle rifle and fire thousands of rounds every year.... the cold forge barrel with hard coating is one of the most challenging manufacturing processes and our manufacturing process cannot supply the high volume needed for our Army. A softer steel barrel will give you accuracy up to 5K rounds and then it is not worth firing. Cold forge barrel cost the world, and it can last up to 60K 5.56 rounds. India's Insas is soft steel, and I would not touch it. India does not know how to create cold forge barrel on the heavier side to dissipate heat in full auto for multiple mag dump. Sig has been manufacturing battle rifles for US Army and Civilian for many years and India has no choice but to lean on them.
How do you know India doesn't know or have Cold Forge technology or cannot be adopted for gun barrels? Ever heard of Kalyani Forgings? Your average American car is probably running on their wheel hubs. They also make objectively the best towed artillery gun systems as tested and certified by the Indian Army. Cold forging as a technology has now existed for over a century. It is not rocket science....at least anymore..... So please don't confuse the corrupt mindset of Indian MOD Bureaucracy with lack of technical capability.
The question is not whether the SIG 716 is good enough or otherwise. The question is - why the Indian Army has to import foreign assault rifles? Don't you think that you are being a little bit presumptuous in saying that India doesn't have cold forged barrel technology. Forget the state manufactured INSAS, it's dead and buried. The Indian private sector has entered into the defence domain and is making good strides.
@@bhayo8522 India may have the know-how but lack the volume capacity. US has a huge civilian market so no one arms manufacturers have to rely solely on Govt contract. That is not the case with India hence.
The government who promised 15 lac ayange sab ke account mai then fake note band then every year youth will get 2 cr. job 🤣🤣🤣.then samosa and chai. And if u raise ur voice ur anti national. Now new thing is by yogi ji rijgar ka new way for Uttar pradesh youth is go and make TH-cam video or Facebook or insta. And earn 5/8 lacs of money. UP mai investment mat lao. Mandir banao hindu Muslim karo. By the way I am hindu Brahman from UP.
The results of these tests between foreign arms and Indian arms should be made public ! .... This is not done on the part of our defence forces ! .... Sometimes I feel our defence forces have less faith in our atmanirbharta than the private players ! .... I am very disappointed with this decision .... 🙏 ....
And our Pradhan Mantri and Raksha Mantri says Bharat will export its weapons. Yes, the country designs and builds aircraft carriers, attack helicopters and missiles, but it seemingly can't make a proper assault rifle.
"SIG Sawyer?" 😂 Sure, a spring maker's completely unknown firearm is suddenly India's ultimate hope. We also get drivel from other channels about how the same spring manufacturer sells "sniper rifles" to other countries including the USA when nothing of the sort is happening while India itself buys it's own precision rifles from overseas. Let's see one Indian company manufacturing decent barrels - the main component of a precision firearm. Then, let's see independent tests of what is being offered by the spring manufacturer - accuracy tests, cookoff tests, reliability tests including mud, dust, cold weather testing and more. Let's see optics developed for these firearms - rail systems, materials used and more. Before peddling drivel, it would be good to see evidence of what is claimed to be an alternative to the SIG Sauer 7.62x51 rifles.
Hum advance defence produce kar rahe he to ye Basic Arms kyo import kar rahe he? Sarkar ka kam gavernance karna wo kyo defence production me ghusi hui he private players or companies ko licence dedo na USA ,Russia ,EU sare desho ki private companies hi defence production karti hai to hum kyo nhi kar rahe?
Why is this question about the gun not put to Rajnath Singh. Would love to hear his answer. Also want to hear what is Chief of army saying. Hope someone raises this question in the parliment to cancel this order.
Atmanirbhar bharat ... really from last 50 years we buy from Russia and now for next 50 years only god knows.. or the politician 😂kadi ninda Karo aur bhul jao
When you have a non functional parliament and rubber stamp everything the pm's team does, then you should expect this that there is no check and balance
Do not buy defense equipments from Lotus Machine tools pvt ltd Chandigarh India. Their products are very very low quality. They are with other names: Lotus Defense and aerospace, Security Equipments, Future Technologies. RK Gupta(Father), Amit Gupta(Son)
Developing a rifle vs manufacturing a million units takes two different skill set. I agree the Army should order P-72 series rifles from SSS but for smaller numbers first to see how the quality holds up during manufacturing.
@@beryanbeyaan8047 we know when the ceo says he wasn't even given a chance to test. You don't have to be board of directors. just not being a moron is enough.
For once journalist had the courage to bell the cat, and call Indian Army procurement for what it is. A corrupt system fed by Import lobby. Hats off to shiv aroor for not patronizing IA and calling out the corrupt IA procurement out loud.
For someone at his level ...he should know...who...does the procurement.... The Army uses sub standard ..kits....from shoes to helmets.... The procurement has babus written all over it...civil servants and political parties get the kickbacks
@@thedeadwalkingguy QRs are set by IA, and procured only after it meets the QRs. For too long the buck is passed around on others. Infamous trials on year after years and this is for inhouse origin systems and does not apply for the imports. Different measurement yardstick for imported ones vs desi ones in comparitive trials no less. And I am not even going into sabotage reports. U know the data is all out in the open and this is going on for too long. Too much water has flown under the bridge and it is time for dismantling import lobbyists.
Tar 21 is a mediocre at best bullpup rifle made to look cool on the outside. It's a 4 MOA rifle with a complicated internal mechanism. Even the israelis don't use it. X95 is a far better weapon in comparison.
I can see the pain of this india today anchor.. As a nationalist myself, i feel you bro
make toilet...tatti master
Kudos to Shiv for highlighting the real issues.
Ridiculous rant by Shiv. He starts off by saying that Indian Army is a circus of various calibers and weaponry....and then goes on to ask why can't each different Army unit be equipped with different rifles for trial. Dafaq?
@@omnicurious2949 he was saying that for just for trails give the home grown weapons to any two units, I think you are exaggerating
@@harshalsingh2750 To what effect will the trials be? I do advocate Indian made stuff, but the ship has sailed on the 'Standard issue rifle". Once chosen, ALL units will be equipped with the SAME rifle...that's why it's called 'Standard issue'. This debate should have happened 5 years ago, not now. Shiv is speaking like a ntcase...aka journalist.
make toilet..dont do tatti on road
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon,
*India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
Every Indian defence enthusiast is a blood pressure patient for years now. It would have been almost funny if it wasn't about national defence with 2 nuclear armed countries threatening our borders.
It is incredible how many terrible decisions our military machinery makes consistently for decades. Our military procurement process is highly corrupt. We have been saved so far purely by raw courage and superior manpower of our soldiers, airmen and sailors (whose quality govt is hellbent on degrading with Agniveer). A time will come when the lack of strategic vision, band aid solutions, cost cutting and corruption will bite us back badly on the battlefield.
Dear Sir, Here is a reply I got from an Ex Military Top Brass
" The largest Indian Defense Export is actually the US. There are as whole lot of components and sub assemblies and assemblies which get shipped from India. Coming from these are a few Offset Agreements which need to be honoured. Therefore a certain number of small arms is the easy route since it will function even after sanctions( the usual US SOP). Secondly the US Sig Saur 7.62mm rifle is a commendable weapon and no harm in getting them. Thirdly most of our Pvt Sector produces weapons are yet to be scaled for Bulk Manufacturing and are thus inducted in smaller numbers for specific sub organisations of our forces"
only army in the world which came up with genius idea of changing barrel and use both 5.56 and 7.62 with one arm. And also expect frontline soldiers to fiddle around changing this assembly, then figure out how mcuh ammo of each type to carry. and that guy is still struggling to get rid of 'hathiyar mien rok'
Agree. In US we use 5.56 or 308 for DMR
The only country 🧐 I can see why your army is pussy footing on choosing a standard for ammo and assaul rifle... You're so inward looking, ease up, will you, learn about the history of small arms a bit more; the Italian ARX160 is a fine modular assault rifle was gonna be your rifle, if Mexico can look outward and come up with a standard rifle (they looked at the German G36 to produce the FX 05 Xiuhcoatl) why not industrial India 🇮🇳
Well the Serbian army has inducted the M19 multi caliber rifle with quick change barrel. But the difference is they have a world class company in the form of Zastava and we have ummm....disappointment... So the Indian army demanded too much too early which even the foreign firms couldn't fulfill at that time.
@@surajbiradar9827 I have always wondered why India can't collaborate with a country like Serbia or Finland (before she went into the fold of Nato) -- their AK's are so damn good, and they are little nations... Couldn't India give them a good deal to develop her own AK variant off of their versions??? It's disappointing, a big democratic country with a well tried home industrial base to be undecided about choosing a standard assault rifle for her fine army!!
@@flamezealousIndian military procurement and pragmatism doesn't always go hand in hand. I have a list of 'should haves' just in small arms.
In mid 50's Bobby McDonald wanted to give tech of Ar10 and Ar15 to anybody who'll buy those rifles. IA even liked them but our MOD prevented it and went aping the British with the slr because apparently krishna menon didn't want NATO standard and ironically we did exactly that in desperation after the Chinese gave us a rude shock. A new nation like us should have taken help from some advanced weapon maker to set up a weapons factory. But we have a British left curse on our back which doesn't want to leave us alone and that's the ordinance factories. They only performed decently when they were managed by the British but after independence IOF fell to the typical rotten babudom culture and. There were multiple rifles that could have been perfect for us like valmet rk62/95 or sig 550. But the false ego of our babudom doesn't let us make pragmatic decisions.
For once I agree with Shiv on this issue ! .... We are discouraging local manufacturers big time ! .... Stupid ! Stupid ! Decision ! .... 🙏 ....
Babus don't see any incentive to build local military industrial complex... Colonial mindset driving our policies.
you have toilet complex for doing tatti? or you are doing on road as usual.
@@beryanbeyaan8047 You have isskool to learn English grammad arr you are learning that in your Chinese donated toilet also?
@@beryanbeyaan8047 Did he insult you? Why did you do that? shithead, he is right. Bureaucracy has been india's worst fault... If you dont believe me go and do some filework with them at local tehsils
@@ninadbhave5133 teri bhen aur biwi ko dekha tha, exposing their g@@nds doing tatti on the road..help them ,make a toilet in your house.
@@AlphaBeta007 It's not only babus, don't put it all on babus, if our generals say yes to a indigenous weapons, there is no way in hell a babu can block it.
Majority of blame for all of this phoren mal fiasco rests with army generals, who surprisingly keep getting gifted apartments in Florida, and foreign scholarships for their undeserving children out of goodness of foreign colleges hearts
The impressive stuff India has developed is mostly stuff that others won't export to us. Its amazing what we can achieve when it's not available for purchase.
completely agree
Except for engines for aircraft, ships and land vehicles
Indian army be like ghas kha lenge pr Indian rifle carry nhi karenge
Maybe Sig Sauer gave the usual "something" to secure the contract? SSS Defence didn't give that " something" to secure the contract.
Ain't that the truth
I thought chandigarh lobby was not active.
@@arunchandramathi9572 chandigarh lobby is forever
U mean bribe
@@rajbiswas9077 Have u fired the SIG 716 Sir
let's be real, indian small arms companies cannot offer the kind of kickbacks that foreing manufacturers can.
Someone told the same thing about Eugene Stoner's AR-10 rifle and Armalite factory once.. now the entire world is buying and building a licensed copy of AR 15. The problem with India is lack of knowledge and too much nose poking of government officials in every matter, even if it is out of their domain
Thats true. Even americaan sf uses german weapons just like many other countries.
Just because its local doesnt mean we havr to outright buy them. We live in a globalised economy where everything feels local in terms of availability.
The gov should continue to give small contracts for this startups to improve and as time pass hopefully we'll have something great.
@@spaceman69lol unless you give orders 'something great' can never be achieved
Excellent program on this very contentious issue
there is no contentious issue except generated by bakchods.
Very good podcast nailed it. Army selected sig because it was the only company which had bulk weapons lying around in their warehouse . Army got it in cheap as compared to other suppliers . Again economies of scale worked here. Had our army or govt supported our private industry initially handholded them then it could have been our industry . But again this is not last order many more will come in future . It’s high time army support Indian private companies nurture them . Then hold competition among them to supply high quality weapons
Shame on DRDO and Ordnance factories who in last 50 years can’t even deliver a proper rifle!! We lost more braves due to faulty equipment both in Kargil and Op Parakram than in any enemy action!! All projects Tejas, Kaveri engine, AEW&S system, INSAS rifles, navigation system etc are delayed by decades with no accountability, multiple cost overruns and end result is zero 🤦😭
jaldi jaldi shame on DRDO like deta hu Cool Lagunga
@@KVSrirangam Usse jyada tez mein aajata hu bakwas karne 🤦🤣 Kyu ki mujhe ek bada sa 🌸 lagna hai
@@kamaljeetsingh1467Indian army can't win war by imported weapons...it hurting our economy gov should imposed ban on imported rifles
@@vdrk8236 so what was 1965, 1971 and Kargil 🤦🤣 are they all won by Indian equipment
Military se ek rifle dhang se procure nhi ho pa rhi par gyan pelne me peeche nhi hamare sher.
My Pt of View as a YO i asked in 1999 why 5.56mm INSAS, these are good for state Police but thank God we have got SIG & Ak-203 now.
True...comments section and presenters are just backroom bakchods whos only experience if PUB-G.
Sig ammunition is very expensive so we are using LMG ammo that produce a greater recoil and lead to barrel bulge so army is not happy with it. AK203 is not that robust it uses polymer Piccadilly half length rails and polymer rails are not stiff enough so the sights mounted on it does not provide accuracy....
SSS exists
Same may happen with ASMI SMG developed by Colnel Bansod...
Kudos for Shiv Aroor for speaking openly and critically on such significant issue...
And salute to CEO of SSS Defence...
Major issue in defence sector in India is less expenditure on Research and Development both in Govt & Pvt sector.
Colt developed about 20-25 variants of M-16 , intially it has issues and failed in Vietnam war against Ak47.
Similarly AK family has so many variants which are developed over a long period of Time. Whereas INSAS has only 2-4 variants.
Similarly MP5 being a wonderful weapon has undergone continuous development and has many variants...
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon,
*India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
In one line- that’s what happens when there is no competition and no consequences
Sticking to the past is the most foolish thing.
Very aptly put. Defence Ministry and Army has to learn to support Indian small arms and not just jump the US and Russian bandwagon!
Shiv aroor at his best... Wonderfully put...
When India didn't make aircraft carrier, when India didn't make nuclear subs, when India didn't send a prob to mars, when India didn't send rover on the surface of the moon,
*India chose Indian domestically produced all-infantry INSAS! and it has been time proven wrong decision* .
Our bureaucrats , business houses and politicians are brass hungry , unless they get it nothing is going to improve .
INSAS is a good rifle we used it for 20 years now we need to move on. But with the Indian option with the new start ups.
INSAS is not a good firearm - not now and not at the time when it was produced. Is is slow and subject to lot of maintenance issues.
The simplest are most difficult to build. I have used AK since 1997, its so maint free in all weather
we are unable to take lead in mettalurgy & composite thats probably a reason why we are unable to make good basic wpn for Inf
small fire arms , rifles , snipers should be indigenized al any cost.. its a shame we are importing them...
Army too has changed its position from 5.56mm round meant to disable a enemy from 7.62mm which will down the enemy.But SSS defence has a point.Even off we see the colt from Vietnam and now it has evolved.
9mm carbine replacement i heard as a YO waiting to see even after 26 yrs
There are no substitute for import Shiv..... So called desi maal is just screw assembled foreign maal by pvt sector or entities at 3 times the price.
This is pure bullshit!! The person/committee framing the Qualitative Requirements doesn't have a clue or watches to much super hero movies!!! They have selected a DMR as an assault rifle !! One thing I just can't understand is the Tavor Rifles use the same. 5.56 * 45mm round as the insas and its used bymost of the special forces of India without any problems in fighting terrorists while the Insas fails to do so and thats why noe you need both the Ak 203 and Sig 716!!! Its just fking ridiculous!!!
bdk tu kya Fauji hai...kabhi rifle chalaya hai? angrezi chod na band kar
If army people are definitely getting kick backs or else no one would make such stupid decisions. It’s a joke. Look at IAF too always underprepared and always behind.
Because India is still not capable enough to produce a functional reliable small arms till today..
India decided on the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge in 1963. We had the our own version of the FN FAL rifles. We tried replacing them with 5.56x45 NATO cartridge and made our Infamous INSAS rifle. COIN operations showed the cartridge to be underpowered and the rifle a tad unreliable. So now we are moving back to 7.62x51mm NATO and the Soviet 7.62x39mm intermediate. We are purchasing SIG 716 for the former and AK203 for the latter. The only problem I see is SIG716 not being manufactured in India. I think we should ensure that happens. SIG SAUER should be asked set up a rifle factory in India.
Ugram is 7.61*51 so the government has decided to go ahead with Ugram in the long run
Every country has definite strong points. India exports its world renowned IT sector, while USA exports weaponry. No need to belittle the nation. Can’t be great at everything.
Holding the mirror to the army and GOI.
Please bring this issue up in Jaipur Dialogues. Maj Gen Rajiv Narayanan has a quite contrary view on this which must be corrected. It’s high time we must hold people accountable.
This cliche comparison of space program, shipbuilding, missile tech to making firearms is very misleading tbh. For eg. The UK builds SSNs, aircraft carriers, tanks etc but still made a shitty service rifle in the form of L85. France builds Rafael fighter jets, submarines, tanks and still has to import german rifles for its army. On the other hand Czech Republic doesn't have a space program nor does it build any big defense equipments but this tiny country produces one of the finest guns in the world. Same can be said about countries like Finland, Switzerland, Serbia and Austria.
Analysing this peculiar pattern gives you some interesting insights.
The countries which produce good firearms have two things in common, human resource and a dynamic gun culture which sustains a thriving industry.
If you look into firearms history one notices that iconic firearms innovation is driven by singular talented gunsmiths and engineers like John browning, Eugene stoner, mikhail Kalashnikov, samuel colt,
Daniel wesson, hugo shmeisser, vasily degtyaryov, dieudonne saive etc. India doesn't have any of the two.
After the 1878 arms act india's once thriving domestic gun culture was killed by the British and sadly even the independent government and bureaucrats have left no stone unturned to kill domestic private firearms manufacturing and ownership and monopolised it in the inept ordnance factories. There is not one formal gun smithing course offered anywhere in india!!.
How do you expect good firearms in this situation?.
Here's the absolute truth.
Sig Sauer 716 is not used by the US army. It's a gun meant for Law enforcement and civilian market.
AK-203 is export version (read : inferior) of a gun Russian military rejected from the outset. all that fully kitted out less recoil versions featured on their promo are only available for the Russians.
Shiv on fire 🔥.
It is TRUE that army can give small orders and give feedback to manufacturer to develop own ammunition
Army is also running skill India - Agniveer
This job of make in India is .....job of Babus n politicians......not Army
So basically I am not the only one raging about these stupid decisions. However, I am confident, that nothing will ever change
Shiva’s heart is in the right place & I get the point about supply chain nightmare with so many guns used.
But let’s also consider pov of our forces who are actually putting their lives on the line everyday, trusting their rifles. Trust isn’t built in a day. Instead of taking a binary approach why not a have a roadmap for gradually inducting indigenous small arms, starting with forces deployed in relatively less demanding battle conditions. By judiciously tracking performance, feedback & satisfaction in various battle conditions will create a database for new small arm inducted & their comparative performance, allowing the vendor to make changes or provide additional options if needed. In the meanwhile let the frontline forces use the weapon they trust to be more effective in the battlefield.
As our own small arms mature & gain trust, we can take a decision of introducing it to our frontline security forces. The most important thing is to achieve our combat objectives, once we have data backing its ability to that, the transition to our own small arms will be much smoother.
Pakistan recently inducted BW20 and BW21 built upon G3, a beautiful weapon. And Pakistan made it themselves.
The opposition should do halla gulla on this issue. But they are in cahoot with military contractors so they benefit too from it.
Welding, metal cutting, machining and CAD is not the same as precision manufacturing.
You're talking about a country which measures % of indigenous content of a weapons platform by weight. WEIGHT.
100% agree with Shiv! No justification for this stupid decision. Second thing is the MoD has tomtommed the AK203, 600,000 rifles will be delivered. What are we going to do with those weapons?
we have more than 1.4 million troops FYI. AK 203 and SIG SAUER will become the standard weapons of the Indian army.
@@pnstudios925 For your information, the AK203 manufacturing took about 5 years to begin after its supposed opening. With that level of Delays in defence procurement, i can hardly see any future. The reason they took these sig sauers was because the AK is taking too much time, You need to see whats going on
@@Game_Reaper first read what the comment was... Secondly even with Ak 203 our requirements were not being fulfilled. Sig was in service before ak 203
@@pnstudios925 It was only meant for frontline units but since the AKs didnt arrive quick enough, they had to order more and equip non frontline troops with Sig sauers too. Its because of delays
Because of INSAS rifle quality domestic rifles mfgs lost good image infront of soldiers. SIG and AK203 is now famous among Indian soldiers. AK203 local made with indigenous content is good. Assault rifle is low tech now. All defense startups should work on Jet engines, Fighter jets, Missiles, Radars, Drones and other high tech products. ❤❤
Why will India Inc put its money on R&D if the Government decides to buy everything from abroad? In any new product development, there will be iterations. The Government has to hold hands and provide support, otherwise we can defer the target of becoming a developed nation to a few centuries down the road - if we exist as a country then.
Import lobby will not allow it. Next step Adani get away with the large rifle contract
I thought things have changed under this govt. sad to see nothing has changed.
Super bro, u have a guts to say reality in front of whole country specially in government .may be they shaming and start love for Indian weapons
at last TH-cam guys listen my request after so many months.
SSS can get orders for 10-20k units from CRPF, Air Force, Navy, Army, Police SF units and Coast Guard..
Today all Tanks and combat vehsBMPs of Russia n origin are manufactured in India since 1986.
Corruption and laid back attitudes in Indian red tape has led us here
Babus are to India what army is to Pakistan.
Great shiv aroor your way of patriotism and I agree with you ...why Modiji cannot break this import lobby...
I was literally felt bad when we had weapons made in India but we go abroad for procurement.
Sir if any one comment about bjp policy and how they are running this country they immediately say anti national. Thanks to bjp supporter youtubers. And our vishwa guru ji 🙏. No hope
it is the second instalment of what has already arrived in India .... contract was for 1.5 lakh rifles that was signed initially , but yes neglecting local armament industry is a shame . China makes its own weapons and will supply pakistan readily . India will be like Ukraine, but with no backers like the NATO to save them, in case of a war which is bound to happen sooner than later.
56:15 It’s NOT TERRIBLE. That 800 crore is the difference between life or death on the battlefield. I understand the need to create the standard infantry kit in house. But that concern should always be second to provide these brave soldier with the absolutely best gear, no matter where it is manufactured.
In war time u will not have supply lines to replace parts that's the main problem here.
Looks like you are a sales representative or sales agent from some US arms manufacturing company 😅
look at turkey they are doing much better than us
Turkey is a bird...like fried chicken.
It so shocking to see that we still are importing basic infantry rifles even today especially now when we have Indian startups making them. Govt appears to be doing only lip service when it comes to defence modernization and indigenisation.
I want an episode on the fiasco that is Tejas 😅
Delusion ,fake Nationalism or false notion of love towards nation can doom this country
Reality, Rationalism, logic, Science can contribute towards betterment in various Departments of Country
And also sometimes need to have faith in fellow indian work, creation and theory
It's not the case, actually.. the thing is lack of knowledge about firearms.. see, we put people in positions where they do not belong.. if it was upto them Indian Amry would still be using. 303 SMLEs.. private MNC is a fairly new concept in India still now these old politicians don't even know the first word of privatization they think how can a 20 year old know what is good for the country plus corruption from Bofors to even fertilizers every thing has it's own story.. so forget about government contracts it can only be done only if there is a total regime change no old politicians and only qualified educated young politicians then only Indian armed forces will get the top of the line equipments.. and not government Military is also to be blamed for this
Does Indian government planning to shut this startup for Adani made futuristic planned weapons favoured by Modi?
Think how many jobs would have been created by giving this contract to our private sector.
Import lobby is still active.l
Try to procure indigenous private rifle for BSF and Assam rifles by testing them and then force the Army to accept it. BSF / Assam Rifles why because they are drpolyed along the border and CI zones
Great topic and discussion, but you need to change the host Dev to someone who is more articulate. He cannot express his points and has a really bad accent even by Indian standards. Habad tabad ghach pach.. what are you saying dude?
Also, Shiv you need to interview Army leadership and ask these questions point blank. Why don't you ask them when you get the chance? Indian military leadership should be help accountable for these blunders.
Indian army simply can’t think beyond its nose - or beyond what Modi officials want. Very politicized army.
Funny Americans are moving their standard round for their military 6.35 X 48 mm from whatever NATO round they were using so look up to that
Very informative podcast. Problem is the defence provurement Bureaucracy and the vesyed interests.
It isbpathetic that our our Army has no Standards in place in terms of Amunation and caliber.
Wish our Govt wakes up on requirement of our own domestically developed in India.
Jsi Hind
I am a US citizen and possess multiple battle rifle and fire thousands of rounds every year.... the cold forge barrel with hard coating is one of the most challenging manufacturing processes and our manufacturing process cannot supply the high volume needed for our Army. A softer steel barrel will give you accuracy up to 5K rounds and then it is not worth firing. Cold forge barrel cost the world, and it can last up to 60K 5.56 rounds. India's Insas is soft steel, and I would not touch it. India does not know how to create cold forge barrel on the heavier side to dissipate heat in full auto for multiple mag dump. Sig has been manufacturing battle rifles for US Army and Civilian for many years and India has no choice but to lean on them.
How do you know India doesn't know or have Cold Forge technology or cannot be adopted for gun barrels?
Ever heard of Kalyani Forgings? Your average American car is probably running on their wheel hubs. They also make objectively the best towed artillery gun systems as tested and certified by the Indian Army.
Cold forging as a technology has now existed for over a century. It is not rocket science....at least anymore.....
So please don't confuse the corrupt mindset of Indian MOD Bureaucracy with lack of technical capability.
The question is not whether the SIG 716 is good enough or otherwise. The question is - why the Indian Army has to import foreign assault rifles? Don't you think that you are being a little bit presumptuous in saying that India doesn't have cold forged barrel technology. Forget the state manufactured INSAS, it's dead and buried. The Indian private sector has entered into the defence domain and is making good strides.
@@bhayo8522 India may have the know-how but lack the volume capacity. US has a huge civilian market so no one arms manufacturers have to rely solely on Govt contract. That is not the case with India hence.
The government who promised 15 lac ayange sab ke account mai then fake note band then every year youth will get 2 cr. job 🤣🤣🤣.then samosa and chai. And if u raise ur voice ur anti national. Now new thing is by yogi ji rijgar ka new way for Uttar pradesh youth is go and make TH-cam video or Facebook or insta. And earn 5/8 lacs of money. UP mai investment mat lao. Mandir banao hindu Muslim karo. By the way I am hindu Brahman from UP.
The results of these tests between foreign arms and Indian arms should be made public ! .... This is not done on the part of our defence forces ! .... Sometimes I feel our defence forces have less faith in our atmanirbharta than the private players ! .... I am very disappointed with this decision .... 🙏 ....
And our Pradhan Mantri and Raksha Mantri says Bharat will export its weapons. Yes, the country designs and builds aircraft carriers, attack helicopters and missiles, but it seemingly can't make a proper assault rifle.
"SIG Sawyer?" 😂
Sure, a spring maker's completely unknown firearm is suddenly India's ultimate hope. We also get drivel from other channels about how the same spring manufacturer sells "sniper rifles" to other countries including the USA when nothing of the sort is happening while India itself buys it's own precision rifles from overseas. Let's see one Indian company manufacturing decent barrels - the main component of a precision firearm. Then, let's see independent tests of what is being offered by the spring manufacturer - accuracy tests, cookoff tests, reliability tests including mud, dust, cold weather testing and more. Let's see optics developed for these firearms - rail systems, materials used and more. Before peddling drivel, it would be good to see evidence of what is claimed to be an alternative to the SIG Sauer 7.62x51 rifles.
Is any Indian arms manufacturer has a rifle to match the range of 500m
That SIG-716 offers ?
Hum advance defence produce kar rahe he to ye Basic Arms kyo import kar rahe he? Sarkar ka kam gavernance karna wo kyo defence production me ghusi hui he private players or companies ko licence dedo na USA ,Russia ,EU sare desho ki private companies hi defence production karti hai to hum kyo nhi kar rahe?
Good pointers by Shiv
That's why no one private company applied and join AMCA as SOV model
Why is this question about the gun not put to Rajnath Singh. Would love to hear his answer. Also want to hear what is Chief of army saying. Hope someone raises this question in the parliment to cancel this order.
Atmanirbhar bharat ... really from last 50 years we buy from Russia and now for next 50 years only god knows.. or the politician 😂kadi ninda Karo aur bhul jao
Were will they get hefty commission if they buy indian origin weapons
Did Indian army test the rifles made by SSS defence?
Issue with insas only it was not upgraded in regular basis I don't know why the work has stopped
Shiv knows nothing, he thinks if he reads some news on media he thinks he has become expert
When you have a non functional parliament and rubber stamp everything the pm's team does, then you should expect this that there is no check and balance
What is DRDO doing.. waste of money .. eating up exchequer money .. a rifle has to be imported?
what are you doing..waste of oxygen..eating up our meagre resources...can't even call out Indian Army?
Somebody in Govt made money from Arms supplier
A country that can build a nuclear sub, land on the moon cannot make a reliable rifle???
India shining
Do not buy defense equipments from Lotus Machine tools pvt ltd Chandigarh India. Their products are very very low quality. They are with other names: Lotus Defense and aerospace, Security Equipments, Future Technologies. RK Gupta(Father), Amit Gupta(Son)
@Shivaroor how to know who are the decision maker in arany? Can you please publish the same?x
Developing a rifle vs manufacturing a million units takes two different skill set. I agree the Army should order P-72 series rifles from SSS but for smaller numbers first to see how the quality holds up during manufacturing.
@@yasuynnuf1947 they are not even giving a fair chance to test.
@@meetme59 how you know? you are on board of directors?
@@beryanbeyaan8047 we know when the ceo says he wasn't even given a chance to test. You don't have to be board of directors. just not being a moron is enough.
@@beryanbeyaan8047 The CEO said it himself, dont be an idiot. You are antagonizing everyone, thats not nice
@@Game_Reaper make toilet..dont do tatti on the road.
Import or not we need best for our soldiers
Who designs the specifications in the Tender document for procurement?
Where is our make of india
For once journalist had the courage to bell the cat, and call Indian Army procurement for what it is. A corrupt system fed by Import lobby. Hats off to shiv aroor for not patronizing IA and calling out the corrupt IA procurement out loud.
For someone at his level
...he should know...who...does the procurement....
The Army uses sub standard
..kits....from shoes to helmets....
The procurement has babus written all over it...civil servants and political parties get the kickbacks
@@thedeadwalkingguy QRs are set by IA, and procured only after it meets the QRs. For too long the buck is passed around on others. Infamous trials on year after years and this is for inhouse origin systems and does not apply for the imports. Different measurement yardstick for imported ones vs desi ones in comparitive trials no less. And I am not even going into sabotage reports. U know the data is all out in the open and this is going on for too long. Too much water has flown under the bridge and it is time for dismantling import lobbyists.
India should collaborate with Israel to create an rifle just like we made Brahmos with Russia. Israel TAR 21 is one of the best Rifles in use.
The idea is, build your own and improve it to top class. Tavor wasn't probably built as a "collaboration".
Tar 21 is a mediocre at best bullpup rifle made to look cool on the outside. It's a 4 MOA rifle with a complicated internal mechanism.
Even the israelis don't use it.
X95 is a far better weapon in comparison.
Is it required to see the anchor's shoe and socks? Is that sponsored?
Btw Sig Sauer is German company...They are buying guns of German company from US :)
Its main branch got defunct in 2020, now the american branch dominates it
So what happen SSN failed to offer bribe to Defence force procurement people .