Do you have a more comprehensive list of cards that you would recommend (possibly) removing from you decks? I feel like you just hit the tip of the iceberg. This is the type of magic I want to play. :)
So I have a grixis deck with Bolas the Ravager as the commander which has 2 themes. The first is Nicol Bolas where I have every bolas card and a lot of the cards that directly feature bolas such as torment of hailfire, slave of bolas, and cruel ultimatum. But then my main overall theme i'm trying to do is theft. Slave of bolas works for both but then I also run expropriate because it fits the theme of stealing your things. I also have cards like minds dilation, empress galina, etali, thief of sanity. If I resolve either a torment or expropriate can you really say I am taking the win from myself there?
There's a dude in my play group who ran mono black Mikaeus. The theme was Zombie Apocalypse, so everything was Zombies and Skeletons and board wipes really cool, thematic stuff. He even had Engineered Plague in the deck for the single purpose of naming Humans as the afflicted creature type to fit with the zombie apocalypse theme. But then he throws Triskelion in the 99. Invariably, every single game he draws the Demonic Tutor and could search for a Zombie or Skeleton payoff, but he always tutored for Triskelion. It took months of telling him that Triskelion turned his deck from a cool theme into every other Mikaeus deck I've ever seen. He finally rebuilt it as Wilhelt the Rotcleaver and it's a much more satisfying deck to play against now.
Lately I've been taking this concept further and I'll remove staples if they don't fit the decks theme...but if the deck is already jank and needs the help, I might run some
Totally agree. I run a fairly mid power pod (though to be honest these days it would probably be considered a low power pod due to power creep) and I use powerful cards and staples to shore up some supreme jank to try and meet a middle ground.
Thank you! This perfectly encapsulates the way I have been building my decks. People are always asking why I’m not playing infinites or just jamming good stuff “auto includes”. It’s not fun. I’m not here to play standard or modern.
I understand your point, why using 99 cards in your deck when you have a card that make you win ? For me it's easy, I use whatever to win. Control deck use that kind of strategy, they are slowing the game until they get the card they want.
My deck building rule for edh wincons: if it's not combat it's combo/ critical mass wincon and then one sudden "I win" mechanic that fits the theme ie halo fountain in Naya tokens. So I'm not stealing the win from myself but have it as a last resort to win in my theme.
I noticed I was putting in Conflicting win cons and it was hurting me. I’d get 1 combo piece so I’d try and tutor for another and then not draw a tutor or draw into the last piece but I’d start drawing the other combo. Basically just became a mess of not being able to effectively get out one win con because there’s too many to consider and then the deck doesn’t function So I’ve had to reevaluate often to make the wincons more synergistic and be able to play off of the main theme or each other better
I really appreciate your point. Putting in random win cons or out-of-place power houses doesn't just steal the win, it steals a card slot. A bomb that you use to win the game out of nowhere is basically a "win more" card sitting useless in your hand most of the time, when that slot could've forwarded the real plan. All that said, I do have a UR spellslinger, card draw, flashback/storm, kiki-pester-splinter-exarch good stuff Jori En deck. But I made that specifically to be a jerk 😂
Really glad you made this video. This is exactly what I see in other players decks, usually new players who see something big and go "Whoa, I need that in MY deck" and they kinda have to get it out of their system because most experienced players that I play with even say that they're done with Cyc Rift and Mana Drain and Craterhoof because they say they just aren't fun, it's not interesting. The cards are too strong. One game I'm playing against my friend and we had this little battle on the stack because he was trying to kill my commander and knock me out of the game and I successfully protected it and instantly doubled my army and gained a ton of life and then after it all resolved he just went "Ok, Insurrection?" and I'm like "Oh. Well then you just win." and he goes "Are you sure?" and I'm like "Yeah of course. There's no way you don't win." The generic stuff that's like "I play this card. Can you stop it right now? Ok then I win." all just wrapped up in one card are just incredibly lame. I try to do cool stuff and my decks might be just a little durdley but they definitely aren't bad and if I have to play against that stuff then the odds can just become impossible. I've been putting a lot of thought into a Baba Lysaga deck that is thematically an evil witch build with dark magic and sacrifice and I'm looking through loads of cards and come across death cloud and I'm like "Ooh that would be a way to close the game" but then I thought "Wait. My deck needs help with a win con but this is just a cop out, if this doesn't win the game then everyone just suffers because they sacrifice lands too..." so as badass as I think the art is and thematically I think it looks like some huge toxic witch spell that just extinguishes life I'm not going to play it. I wouldn't want to play against it so I'm not going to play it against other people. Then everyone goes "You need ways to end the game" and "Your deck should have at least one way to win out of nowhere" which I don't necessarily agree with but what about something like Flying Crane Technique? I mean that doesn't win by itself but it does a lot of work and on top of it you can use it proactively for a win but you can use it reactively as removal/mass untap and do a bunch of stuff with that. That's pretty cool. People can't find more things like that to put in their deck? Ultimately I understand, we do live in a world where EDHREC says "play this" and a lot of people don't have the time to sink into learning/deck building and I don't like to tell people what to play or anything so it's sort of just a thing that you deal with so I try to look for ways that I could possibly stop one of those kind of wins while doing something that still helps my deck and if I win then I win and if I lose then whatever. Was going to leave a comment on your other video too but I didn't get to, you brought up Blessing of Leeches and that is a perfect card in my Baba build, I might have never found that myself. Also don't remember if I got Screams From Within from you but that's another great one. Your channel is the best at recommendations. Your memory is excellent.
There is one card I dread. I hate it with a passion. It's the only card I want to scoop when I see it. "Aura Shards" It's a card of nightmares, if you don't deal with it, game is generally over.
@@MaKs2K5 Well Aura Shards is bad but it isn't THAT bad. It only hits Artifacts and Enchantments. That being said I don't like the card either and I don't play it and I don't like it when someone else plays it but it sounds like you might need more flexible removal. Aura Shards can't end a game by itself, unless maybe you're playing an artifact strategy and all of your stuff is artifacts or likewise for enchantress decks, then it could shut you out. Those are two specific strategies though and you should have removal options for both. Aura Shards is a card that fits in the conversation though being a generally very strong generic repeating value engine. It basically is stax. Lots of things people can play in place of it.
@@cd15turb3d I'm more of a balanced player, so I don't rely entirely on my artifacts and enchantments, but I really like having them. Aura Shards says no to this. I also do run removal for those as well, don't worry about it, I like to control the battlefield.
I don’t play tutors for this reason. It gets boring winning the game the same way every time. I wanna think and put effort into a game rather than be on rails.
There should probably just be a disclaimer that this comment would not be applicable to decks with an 8+ power level or CEDH. Those decks are going to have combos, tutors, play and win cards or OP Commanders. They’re effective at winning but not getting points for style. I think this is more directed at upgraded precons, janky decks etc. for casual play, which is the type of game that demo plays. Play and win cards feel very out of place in that setting. Where I would disagree in that context is saying that somehow these spells are acceptable if on theme. The example given was a Mill deck with Rise of the Realms. How does that make it better ? You cast it and get like 15 creatures in play, where it is basically a win unless someone can counter or board wipe before you attack… but for some reason, if you mill them to make it 40 creatures instead of 15, that is relevant ? It’s sort of like saying if I one shot kill you with an X spell for 40 damage that’s a cheap shot but if I get infinite mana and then deal a million damage to kill you, that’s on theme with a direct damage deck and totally OK. It’s just a disconnect from logic IMO. These cards are either something your group is OK with or there is a rule 0 to exclude them. Trying to argue that a card is OK sometimes but not always is where Commander really breaks down as a friendly casual game and ends up with bickering and arguing instead. You will rarely have agreement on what is or is not OK.
I understand where you're coming from in your disagreement, and I agree with your take, but I think you may have missed the point in the take given here. I feel the reason he said Rise of the Realms fits is that it would be defense against graveyard shenanigans that keep you from milling them properly. BUT, I'm pretty sure that we can agree that there are better ways to counteract graveyard shenanigans, like Bojuka Bog effects, or Leyline of the Void effects. But, yeah, I don't think he meant to "steal the win" of a mill deck with an alpha strike.
@@julioborjon4389 I took his views as that when these types of spells have high synergy with your deck, it would make sense that you are playing them. They are not just a staple “play and win” card that would feel out of place… My point was that the objection most players have is not that they are staples or that they are not on-theme but that they are anti-climactic “play and win” cards. So whether they have synergy is not the issue, it is that they are not particularly fun cards to play against in a casual game as they generally render all play up to that point meaningless. So when you have this cleverly thought out unique deck with all sorts of synergy and then you have a card that renders all that creativity meaningless with an easy win, I still see that meeting the same criteria for “stealing the win”.
Thats a really good point and exactly why i dont put orcish bowmasters in any of my decks. First of all the pricetag on that bad boy is something else, but he consistently overshines whatever else youre doing. Everyone sorta rolls their eyes when they see that card cast just like the big good stuff haymakers like expropriate, torment of hailfire, etc. Its also not because im trying to make a quirky deck and not a good one. Im trying to make a fun play environment as well, and to me that means im making a competitive enough version of whatever my deck is aiming to do. Those cards arent necessary for that unless im playing my Vito deck i definitely use exsanguinate to heal bomb people
Bowmaster is no torment of hellfire. It's great in modern, not in edh. It's great value for 2 mana but in a vacuum it's not extremely powerful. People might roll their eyes because they know how expensive a card it is, but in casual commander it's not a big threat.
I'm brewing an Angel reanimator deck with Firja at the helm, and I opted for Patriarch's Blessing as a much more flavorful replacement for Dark Realms in my 2nd draft. This video really helped put words to my feelings about that card!
I know as soon as I cast the card whether it really belongs in my deck. For example, I have a Lathril deck that put Craterhoof into once. After casting it the first time in game, I immediately removed it from the deck after that game. But Craterhoof is great in my Hamza deck, because it fits the theme, which is about big creatures and overruns and, frankly, my Hamza deck needs all the help it can get. But Craterhoof just felt wrong in my elf deck. I haven't won yet with Craterhoof in my Hamza deck, but I have won with Makindi Stampede :).
There's no better feeling than winning a game having put a lot thought into designing a highly synergistic thematic deck. I think that's the point of this video. Your wincon should be the theme and synergy of the deck itself not singular cards
That plus fast mana is basically just cedh in a nutshell: it's why WUBRG decks are consistently popular in cedh and most others that sacrifice that part do so because they usually have half a combo in the command zone.
@@zweis 😆I had to laugh when i saw that. Those are literally two of the top 10 5c commanders there is! Kenrith is more of a pure good stuff pile, while Najeela is more thematic and combat based though
peculiar that people are saying "but you need these cards to close out the game". i've never put any cards like this in any of my decks, and i've won plenty of games.
To the people who disagree, I can only recommend you give Demo's method a shot. I play the same as him, I'd rather lose or win on plan (well, deck dependent 😅)
@@Cocytus127 not exactly a weird take. If you ever watched commander gameplays on youtube, you'll realize that one-card wins such as Torment or Expropriate never see play these days. I assume because people wanna play fun, entertaining decks, and winning isn't an end.
There are times when games just drag. That can happen with decks that have weak win conditions, games with complicated turns, or when the "big splashy plays" get defeated. Heck, it can even happen with too many board wipes. I definitely agree here that slapping Torment of Hailfire or Craterhoof Behemoth into any old deck isn't great deckbuilding. But there is a fine line. For a creature-heavy deck, especially focused on "go wide," Craterhoof is a reasonable finisher. Exsanguinate is great as a finisher for life gain. Torment is reasonable in situations where you are making big mana and your main wincon has already fizzled. Games do, indeed, have to end at some point. Demo states as much in the video, and that shouldn't be very controversial at all. I had a friend who built a "lands matter" deck and didn't want to end a game with Maze's End...he was in complete control of the board and the game was dragging, so it was OK with everyone at the table to allow him to play Maze's End and finish so we could get in another game. It's not the deckbuilding that's at fault. It's really what sort of play group you have and what kind of games people want to play, and what rapport you have with those folks.
I’ll complain all I want lol my bro has a mono black “steal your cards and cast them” deck and it’s an awesome theme, but every game he gets ahold of necropotence, tutors for Gray Merchant, then wins the game. I complain every time he does it, and he is starting to realize he’s hardly playing the stolen cards from exile, he is just playing good stuff cards to win. “Complaining” obviously has a negative connotation, but expressing my opinion or giving him a hard time is making him realize he is getting bored just playing of Black good stuff just as much as I am sick of losing to Gary.
No. I have won with those type of cards before. The wins weren't satisfying for me. The best type of wins have been when there was a back and forth in the game and I was able to set up all my game pieces in such a way that it assembled a puzzle.
This was my issue with my old Kess deck. I couldn’t close out ANY games so I stuffed in D. Con. Thoracle combo alongside demonic tutor. For just 7 mana (not hard with treasure and rituals) and d tutor in hand I can search up both game pieces and instantly win. It was entirely anticlimactic especially for a deck that wasn’t control, as it was originally a spellslinger deck.
Nice you're talking about this - definitely a sentiment I agree with! Building a thematic deck is much more artistically satisfying than leaning on "crutch" cards. If that's what floats your boat, of course! I would say though that Expropriate isn't an instant win. If you play it into a board where you have nothing going on, it's quite likely that even with 2 turns and 3 extra permanents from the other players you're not going to win there and then. It lacks synergy with most things, sure, but you do need to be doing something to make it win for you. Also, for Torment of Hailfire, another theme it fits in is X spells :)
My one deck that torment of hailfire 100% fits into is my Nicol Bolas themed Nicol Bolas deck. Because it is both a backup wincon if people kill my bolas planewalkers AND it has some of the best Nicol Bolas art on it.
@@vittoriosavian9964 I don't think that's accurate - The deck isn't a mill deck at all, and its barely a self-discard deck either. Most of the discard pieces are selective rather than just putting a bunch of stuff in the graveyard and there are multiple pieces that are there specifically to get stuff out of the graveyard and back into your hand - its almost anti-synergistic with Rise of the Dark Realms in that sense. Rise of the Dark Realms in that deck is basically a "I didn't draw anything relevant to my gameplan late game/all of my things got dealt with, maybe this card can save me because its good" which is exactly what Demo is saying cheapens the play. Whether or not you agree is totally fine, but to me rotdr is the "my plan didn't work, time to follow the blueprint" card - which I think makes a very strong argument for Demo saying it makes your really cool deck brew get overshadowed.
@@flywithafatguy5825 if you're a smart-ass taking everything and anything literally, yes. But why would you willfully ignore what a person has to say, because if taken literally, it would be wrong? I mean I know why, because some people like to put others down to feel good about themselves. "You're wrong and I'm right, if I completely ignore/misunderstand what you're trying to say." -> Good job! There's like one other option and I will entertain it for your sake: Maybe you truly think "a win is a win" and that's the only thing that matters, no matter the context. But his point is thus: If you're playing casual (not tournaments for prize money, mind you) and you just out of nowhere play a card that immediately wins the game out of nowhere in your pod, it will feel unearned and like a waste of everyone's time, including yours. You won, cool, but you didn't win because you played your deck. You won because you drew the card that is an auto-win in your deck in combination with your commander. A 1-card "I win"-combo. If you have trouble understanding this point, let's just take this to the extreme. Imagine a card that cost one colorless mana and it said "You win the game." Would you play this in your casual decks? Objectively it's the best card ever printed and playing it makes you win the game. Or would you recognize that it ultimately makes the game around it meaningless whenever it is drawn? It's the same reason that catching the snitch in Quidditch is a completely dumb game rule because it invalidates the entire game, skill and tactics of both teams, if the snitch gets caught. It doesn't matter if his examples are bad or his card evaluation skills are often ... questionable. His point is "don't invalidate what your deck is doing by playing generically busted cards that have little to nothing to do with your deck." I've long stopped putting Sol-Ring into my decks because in 1v1 commander it just means I get a cheap win that ment nothing instead of having an actual play-experience. I have 5 copies of Rhystic Studies and not a single one is in any of my decks.
I play reanimator and i resloved rise from the dark realms twice and decided to remove it. It's a feel bad, either they scoop or the board gets way too complicated, too many etbs, i have to read all my opponents cards... id rather reanimate one big creature at a time and win with combat
Funny that was mentioned the "I run a I win card but still fits on the thematic of the deck" point. I run Aetherworks Reservoir, an all star "I win card" and run it with its best friend Bolas Citadel and next to it. However, with Woe strider and/or Visera Seer, you keep the deck theme while also having an unstoppable engine of cheap creatures to cast, life gain and aristocrat leeching at the same time.
What is the theme though? One is storm, one is aristocrats - you just have the 2 aristocrat pieces that make the storm engine go crazy. It sounds more like you have an aristocrats theme....but cheapened it by shoving an Aetherflux/Citadel into it, which I think is the opposite of this video's message. Not that its 'incorrect' to do so, and of course what is 'on theme' is totally subjective, especially for your own deck, so feel free to ignore my opinion as if I don't know what I'm talking about. To me it just seems you have a well known 2 card pairing shoved into a place it doesn't really make any sense outside the fact that you have actually on-theme pieces that happen to support it.
Hey, while I agree to some extent, I'm often encountering situations in my games that I while the deck seems to be working okay, I still don't manage to finish the game. For example with Kaalia, okay I managed to get out a big scary creature.. now what? I don't do infinite combos, there's a lot of damage that needs to be done for me to win, and now I'm also a big target.. About Torment/Rise, would they "fit" more in a discard themed deck? The discard itself won't really kill the opponents, and while you could put megrim etc in the deck it feels kind of flimsy.
My take on it is to find a wincon that I couldnt pull off in any other of my decks, or a wincon that is heavily on theme for my deck. Be it worldfire in my chandra deck where it is literally an "I win" card due to emblems. Kaalia? Master of cruelties just takes out an opponent outright, Avacyn secures you against a lot of interaction, Gisela is a sweet way to make your board even more threatening
Kaalia very often doesn't win games if they don't have combos. And while she looks scary believe it or not she's a very fair card. So fair in fact that if it was normal 1v1 games she would be a D tier card straight up. If you're gonna win through combat through 120+ life you need to be doing degenerate things. HUUUUUUUUUGE pumps, tons of creatures, multiple combat steps, etc etc.
I do believe there are strong enough creatures to cheat into play that can help you close a game, whether it's with Kaalia or with a reanimation package so you're not fully reliant on your commander. Now assuming you don't win the game, is that a big deal? To me it's fine, I'd rather my opponents give me a challenge than winning through a single overpowered card.
@@guico33 there’s a guy in my playgroup that kind of politics/intimidates the pod to not mess with him early game (he will revenge attack/destroy your stuff etc) and his decks are heavily value based so he’s probably going to win if the game goes long, which often happens. So yeah for me I do want to win at least part of the time. That’s also one of the signs my deck is actually working.
@@EyalDegabli how is it a sign your deck is working if you win with torment of hellfire though? Unless you consider than staying alive until that point is an achievement. But it also sounds like it might be an issue with your pod. When my friend plays simic for instance we know we need to slow him down as much as possible because once it gets going it never stops. The thing is with a card like torment, anyone could win with it. You played it. You won. The player before you played it. They won. I find it such an unsatisfying way to end the game.
I try to keep my win cons on theme, I put my Torment in my Malik Grim Manipulator deck, because I want people to sacrifice their creatures, my build also gives people a lot of creatures to sacrifice. So if they have enough to eat the cost, I end up getting a bunch of treasures anyway and I have a lot of treasure win cons in there too
There is truth in the idea of "stealing the win from yourself," but many games need a single "I win moment" to actually close the game. Games will easily go 2+ hours if there is no "I win" moment (something I'm not personally interested in). Even putting an Ulamog on the battlefield turn 5-6 is often not good enough to end the game. A card needs to be so strong that it knocks out all 3 opponents in basically a single cast (i.e. Expropriate, Craterhoof, Torment of H., etc.).
Could not agree more. This is why I've taken out Rise of The Dark Realms from Belbe and Approach of the Second Sun from Heliod. Winning with cards like these just feels bad.
I'd still run Rise of the Dark Realms with Magar of the Magic Strings. I'm not just casting it, I've got to slap you with a 3/3 to cast it. Animating dubious sorceries and instants rules. Outside that, I'm with you. I got a Craterhoof from the last loose pack, and straight to the trade binder it went.
When I originally put together my WUBRG-Matters Jared/Jenson deck, I used a ton of land searchers to go with the gates manabase but after 3 games or so I noticed that I was basically only ever winning (or getting close to winning) through Maze's End. Sure, it worked, but it didn't feel like it had anything to do with my deck theme.
Tivit, Seller of Secrets is one of the few commanders where Expropriate is on theme, it might be why I finally end up picking up a copy of it. I'm making a new deck for a much more casual play group I might be joining that's a little lower power than some of my other decks and I'm actually enjoying forgoing the OP staples and expensive tutors for a similar reason. I've been bouncing around which commander to choose, but today stumbled upon a Tivit deck I was theory crafting a while back lovingly nicknamed "'murica" for all the effects that make my votes count higher in the variety of voting cards, taxing my opponents (mainly pillowfort stuff and a monologue tax in there for theme), and punishing everyone for my overuse of resources (sacrificing clues, treasures and the like). Between this and the jank, yet surprisingly effective, Lonis ninjutsu deck list I threw together, I'm just finding it's a lot of fun to go for theme and fun or uniqueness over power and staples. TL;DR: Theme, uniqueness, and or fun > Power and staples
I know flavor is not something you care about but Torment of Hailfire is very much fitting a Bolas or Amonkhet themed deck. :P I'm running it in my cycle deck where every card must be part of a cycle together with Torment of Venom and Torment of Scarabs.
@@W4llh4k it's mostly vertical cycles as the deck is not 5 color and I have to run every piece. But I'm also running for example the Bubbling Cauldron set which stretches the definition of cycle a little bit.
@@scaredycat3146 That I call a predefined combo. But dunno if there's an official thrme for that. Like the one with the artificer from tarkir, and vial of dragonfire, and the bow.
I guess I could agree in some decks, but I just put together a faerie tribal with Talion as the commander that focuses on dwindling everyone’s life, so I think in my deck, torment comes in handy to seal the deal
I disagree. Almost every deck SHOULD have 1 card dedicated to an, "I win," card as a backup plan, or as a quick means to end the game on the spot for dragging on too long. It isn't cheating yourself out of a win if the game has degraded to the point where you are able to spend 15+ mana on a Torment of Hailfire, because that means everyone at the table has been spinning their wheels in a manner that hasn't ended the game yet (so you definitely weren't winning to have it "stolen" from yourself anyhow).
@@quizzity4380 see. now you're just spamming my comments like the troll you really are. another troll exposed. just so you know, i'm going to block you now. the function is actually "Hide user from channel" which means nobody on youtube, including me can see anything you say on my channel. have a nice life.
I immediately thought of my Gyome deck as the video reached your Deck Doctor clip. I have a Hulking Broodlord and Saw in Half in the deck because they play into the deck's theming of taking a tour through a restaurant that Gyome owns. Problem is that instead of getting pieces for the Cauldron Familiar + Witch's Oven, I would go for the Witherbloom Apprentice + Chain of Smog combo that I decided to put in because I thought it was neat in Golgari colors. Now granted, my Gyome deck isn't intended to win with an infinite combo, *but* the latter of the two mentioned above has absolutely nothing to do with the deck's theme. And it always felt odd to win with said combo. Thanks to this video I have finally realized why.
Completely depends on the theme of the deck. My favourite deck Ive built is an anhelo the painter list that more often than not closes out the game with a torment of hailfire copied. It never feels like a phoned in win as the deck wears its identity on its sleeve and it feels satisfying to win with.
Expropriat fits in the vots theme. And I play it only in good stuff decks I have, exactly because what you said in the video. My opinion is that you don't see the 'I wine' cards all that much anymore is because counter spells and protection spells are so good know that if you cast the 'I wine' cards you are likely to get it countered or be left with a player that happend to have the teferi's protection in hand at the moment.
I have some in some decks where they fit. I also will add them to other decks as a backup win condition where my decks theme/strategy doesn't have a solid or reliable win con. At least until I find a better win strategy for it while tuning. I do again try to make them work in the deck they go in and not take away from the deck.
man i thought this was gonna be a video about cards people think are good are actually bad but it's a video telling me i shouldn't play cards that win smh
No it's more of use cards that synergize well with your deck. For example I have a Jetmir deck and my commander used to be the OG Hazezon from Legends. It was actually a deck I built bottom up, so instead of building around the Commander, I built around an idea. My idea was mass tokens and I have a lot of cards that synergize with token generation, even my removal spells generate me tokens. So basically try to use as many cards that synergize, work with and benefit your commander or deck idea.
Yea, I feel like it's not about playing cards that win you the game, so much as cards that lean in more towards what your deck does. The first example of Torment of Hailfire can be put into any deck with black. Like, it's weird to be sitting across from a deck doing a really cool thing, wondering what's coming next ... and then the game ends with an anticlimactic Torment. Like, it takes the excitement out of the finish. Any deck could've played that. Same with playing it on your end. Your deck's on a roll, doing its cooling thing and then you draw Exsanguinate. And then you win with Exsanguinate. Again. It kinda takes the wind out of your sails.
I think expropriate is a funny example. Normally my group will just scoop. The one time they played it out I took four extra turns and didn’t do much but draw a card and play a land for four turns. I’ve done a value torment of hailfire, not enough mana to actually win but enough to lower life totals and thin out the board.
I play this in my high power deck where all my cards make treasures and I use this to win by copying the spell. I see your point since I do have 30 decks.
I have Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless in my Queen Marchesa aristocrats deck, but that's about it. Plus, they're on theme. The whole point is to be widdling down my opponents life total and draining them. Once I get them low enough, sacrifice enough tokens to Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar and drain them of the rest.
Thanks for this video. I made an Anhelo deck that used a furystorm/magecraft as a consistent wincon but it did not feel satisfying since it did not fit the flow of the deck. What I've been trying to do recently is work on the flow and etiquette of the deck, making it more fun for my playgroup.
Torment is one of my control finishers, I like to use it as the finisher where my deck is designed to keep me alive long enough to win with it. I also like it in decks that accumulate mana to use with it like king macars gold or Gitrogs massive amount of lands.
I think a disclaimer is quite important in this video because of niche scenarios. For example, I have a Cirdan, the Shipwright deck that focuses entirely on player interactivity- more specifically I have included all ‘voting’ cards available in the respective colors. I can confidently say Expropriate has won me 0 games because it’s not designed to win the game. Cards like Rise of and/or Torment are harder to justify, though, because I believe those cards are for more swingy and debilitating for opponents.
Honestly, I've started taking these cards out already, but yeah this is a great point I hadn't really thought about if the card was actually just making my deck "irrelevant"
Im confused a bit if im for instance playing mono black or mardu treasures and i have quickly ramped up to a large amount of mana why wouldn't i want to play the card that can end the game over a card that just leans into my gameplan? There are quite a few decks where creating a ridiculous amount of mana is the point they need these bombs to actually win right?
@@edhdeckbuildingpolicing the game just because you want to make everyone play a certain way is a buzz kill. Playing commander is about having fun and winning, games drag and sometimes you need 1 or 2 I win cards. Nothing is stopping people from playing interaction. People just don't want to interaction imo.
@@edhdeckbuilding nah I don't care if I win I think both the decks that I described have access to a lot of really good interaction cards. What usually happens is if I'm in the position of winning the rest of the table has a hard time building up a board state cuz my deck is full of interaction so we either play for 3 hours while I don't kill everyone or I play a card that wins the game so we can play another one.
@@Knoxx96 who's policing the game? this is EDH Deckbuilding where i give people deckbuilding advice in the commander format. people can do whatever they like.
I don’t use many of those kinds of cards. I do have Exsanguinate in a couple of decks because they’re capable of making obscene amounts of mana and I wanted to have a strong X spell or two to take advantage of that.
the thing is, if you play cedh, there's no rule, take what you need to optimize your winrate, but if you play casual, you have to balance your deck with your playgroup, so maybe use those kind of card on weaker deck, abstain on stronger one unless it's in line with the theme. also, expropriate would fit really well in a Cecily, haunted mage deck
I have a Korlash landfall deck! Instead of Exsanguinate or Torment of Hailfire I run Consume Spirit, which i think fits the theme of the deck much better and leads to way more hype moments/wins than the other cards because you still have to put the work into your win. Not everything in commander needs to be optimized, sometimes playing worse versions of cards can make the game way more fun and interesting
Problem with not using these cards sometimes some decks won't ever win they just do what their theme is an never win an that's just boring an not worth even playing then or even worth spending an wasting the time building the deck
@@guico33 yes in a way, playing a deck that is completely on theme that can't win an only just play the game on theme is completely unplayable an not worth wasting the time even sleeving the deck up
@@adamwarehime6444 Personally I feel torment is the worst cause it's such a deterministic wincon that requires no setup whatsoever. To power up a deck, I'd much rather add strong card advantage pieces like a One Ring or something more random like a Breach the Multiverse. Depending on your deck's strategy there's usually plenty of very strong cards you could consider that alone will considerably further your gameplan, but not assure you an on-the-spot win.
@@guico33 nope. Playing Dralnu here, and there arent a lot of storm synergy in UB. Unless you start swinging 50 damage with Aetherflux reservoir. And no, i wont try to kill 3 enemies just with attacks from tokens made from 3 cards in a 100 cards deck
I have a Don Andreas deck. I run Rise of the Dark Realms and Insurrection. Insurrection feels on theme given Don's flavor text, and Rise is usually a way for me to get a big swathe of my opponents creatures on my board that are enhanced by my commander. Am I wrong for doing so?
I hear ya, and I mostly agree. However, one infinite combo that I love and, to me, feels on-brand for a deck, is my Strefan Vampire Clan deck running Sanguine Bond / Exquisite Blood, with a direct player interaction life/loss trigger.
Torment/Exsanguinate are outlets for big or infinite mana, Expropriate fits turns and robbery themes, and as you sad Rise of the Dark Realms can be a backup wincon for mill (and I would also add self-mill). Other than that, I am not playing these over any synergy piece.
I have a 5 color omnath with a 3 color theme (I now that it works with any 3 color pips, but thats the theme) and I ended taking out torment of hailfire for other 3 color cards to win, I like it more like it is now
The issue I see with 'I Win' cards is that - in a GENERAL game - they just steal the fun away and make it anti-climatic, while in your own specific pod it may be different. I lost a game to an Alela deck because they just tutored Walking Bal with Heliod on board after a rollercoaster of a game. Stuff like that sucks.
@troybone6849 I also encourage surgical answers to avoid these scenarios. If you can just wipe your worries away, there's no point in politics, and you may as well not be playing commander.
@@troybone6849 wtf is this take? I told you I prefer spot removal, and why. I did't tel you I dislike how commander is. I know ppl will sit together, and play different styles of decks, I'm just pointing out spot removal is way better than ppl give it credit for. I am advocating for "I cards", and for spot removal. Who's crying aside from you?
I was actually just considering that exact combo in a Kellan, Daring Traveler self mill strategy of sorts. The idea is that it’s a race against time and Kellan needs to set out to find tbe power source before it’s too late, Exploring and milling to gather the pieces of the combo to win.
@@W4llh4k Eh I disagree on your first comment. As you say, your mileage may vary, but I think in general if everyone is doing there thing, to me it means that the game was at least fairly close at many points and/or board states got interesting. And then a sudden combo win just makes it so it didn't really matter. Do the ups/downs really matter if someone wins with a combo that doesn't care about life totals, board states, or set ups at all? Nothing against combos, and I'm not saying stuff like this SHOULDN'T happen - I just don't think it makes for a particularly positive experience, which I feel was implied by your comment.
I run Expropriate in my Pirates deck since I pulled it in a Conspiracy draft years back. Seemed a shame to waste it, and it fits the Theft theme of my deck! Additionally it rarely gets cast since my deck doesn't really ramp (and I kind of like it that way).
I agree. I like commander because of the themes and creativity that goes into deckbuikding. I had Bond / Blood in my Hobbit food deck. It’s a life gain sub theme which works technically. But it’s not an aristocrats / vampire deck. It’s just two cards and tutors to get those two cards mashed into a Hobbit deck. Yes they could win the game. But in a boring way. Instead I leaned into the “feed my hobbits and make them strong” theme. I still added a couple oddball cards like, Nuka Cola Vending machine which is hugely strong in that deck. But instead of tutoring up an old tired combo, I get a bunch of rowdy hobbits all hopped up on food and Nuka Cola, cram them through a rogues passage and trample my opponent to death. I still win. But it’s funnier.
I have big X spells in my negan the cold blooded deck as alternate win cons. I basically force people to have nothing on their board as I slowly but surely rather more resources to finish them off through combat or x spells. That's why I run those type of cards.
My favorite deck is ludevic/olag self-mill ability tribal. It wins with a convoluted combo of necrotic ooze and activated abilities that leads to self mill lab maniac win. I often wonder if winning via combo stop my deck to explore his potential. The deck is more control, so it really doesnt manage to win attacking, at some point if mills enough cards it wins.
Thank you for saying this, Demo. This is one thing that’s always bothered me when I see people’s decks. They have some super cool deck and all of a sudden they win with some super overdone combo like avenger/craterhoof. Why? There’s no point. I have a friend with a beautiful ur dragon deck and he constantly tries to win with Jodah/morphon combo. He’s playing dragons! Some of the biggest baddest creatures in magic. Just attack! All you need to do is attack!
I currently have 13 decks fully constructed. 8 of which have access to black (seems I have a favourite color 😂) I agree with not just shoving torment of hailfire into any deck that can run it. It is however in 1 of my 8 decks with access to black though. it’s one of the win cons in my anhelo spell copy deck
I have a Beledros dragon typal deck that just happens to ramp into oblivion by my commander's ability. Since I create so much mana, I included Hailfire and Exsanguinate as backup wincons. I think they are quite on theme there.
I totally feel what you’re saying. I have a non-stacks, non-infinite lord high artificer deck. It focuses on flickering Urza and get a ton of stompy robots . But I don’t use cyclonic rift. Yes it fits and would totally make an easy win, but when I just spent the whole game building up an army of artifacts and robots and defending my commander, it feels bland to win with such a straightforward piece.
I like torment of hailfire in Tergrid (gross), Tinybones and Nath of the Gilt-leaf. Thats about it. Only place for Expropriate is voting theme ie. Tivit. Sidenote, I killed a table with Karma and Urborg in my mono-white deck the other day, it was hilarious.
I play Edgar Markov. I focus the deck on +1/+1 counters with life drain. So for me, Exsanguinate will be the only card that will go into my deck out of these cards shown. 😊
What you're talking about is skill expression. Earn your win through game understanding, not just by getting a lucky draw into a generic win condition.
YES! I hate seeing off theme cards! I mean i understand that theme is pretty abstract as far as EDH goes but it just feels so weird when youre fighting against a certain deck style, and then it just drops 3 typical good stuff cards in a row that have nothing to do with the cool stuff they were doing. Super boring! Especially since so many cards fit that fit into every theme you can find draw, removal and wincons that are all actually related to the gameplan
Lol, use Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire In My Burikos Party Leader /Sword Coast Sailor deck. I build up a critical mass of Treasures, and pay it off with those spells, or Cyberdrive Awakener or Rise and Shine. I also use Insurrection in my Garna, Bloodfist of Keld deck to sack all the creatures for a big explosion. These fit my commanders, but I thought it was funny you called me out :D
I have taken cards like these out of most of my decks, unless they are on theme. Same with staples in general. I play a lot of Commander, so I like to see things that are new and wins that are unique, seeing the same win happen for the 50th time isn't cool to me. So my Don Andres, the Renegade still runs an Insurrection but that's the only deck with it. It's always a nice feeling when you win a game and the pod is complimenting your deck that just beat them, saying it was cool to see X and Y cards being used because they've never seen them do that before, but I don't think I've ever heard a player in any pod say that the Craterhoof Behemoth play was really cool.
Personally I started taking out all of these cards a few years ago from most of my decks and when my playgroup uses them it always leaves an anticlimactic feeling to the game. Although I do admit that I play quite a few of them in my Elmister deck but 90% of the time, they are getting exiled to create 8-10 faerie dragons hahaha
I use torment of hellfire in my lathril deck. Because when I staff of domination and draw my entire deck it allows me to win on the spot with infinite mana
I also use insurrection in my blame game goad deck as a win con because the deck really doesn’t have a win con especially if I’m in a one V one and we’re both at lowlife
I run expropriate in my tivit voting deck, and i ran exsanguinate and torment in my grixis anhelo spell copy deck. But i wouldnt run them outside of those themes
I have no other way of winning in my dimir nymris deck: win cons are spread across multiple ways of winning: hullbreaker horror, torment of hailfire, flip sheoldred. I can't win in another way but would love tips and advice ;)
I haven't had a nymris deck in a while but I used to run a doomsday combo in there. I think it was like doomsday, predict, lab man and brainstorm something like that. But it was basically like you just hit a certain amount of Mana and without interaction you just win the game.
I came ready to argue but yeah, I actually agree that goodstuff win cons aren’t particularly interesting. For your Torment of Hailfire example, I’ve only ran it in exactly one deck which was Kagemaro First to Suffer (actually check out the commander, I think you’d find it somewhat interesting as it’s a ridiculously efficient instant speed board wipe in the command zone and it’s got less than 100 decks on EDHrec, lots of cool tricks you can do with stuff like Not Dead After All) and the only reason I decided to put Torment in was because I wanted a payoff for Skirge Familiar as I would routinely have unironically 40 cards in hand and wanted another way to win that wasn’t swinging at each of my opponents one at a time. Did it feel a little bit cheap and was it irrelevant to the unique conbat trick aspects of the commander? Absolutely! I totally get what you mean when you call it stealing the win, but on the other hand if I was ever going to cast a Torment of Hailfire, at least there was some semblance of style and synergy with my hyper card draw theme in only ever doing so when I had to discard 34 cards to make the mana for it and say “X=32 :)”.
there is apparently a whole slew of people out there with a nicol bolas themed deck with torment of hailfire in it.
I mean that is on theme for me
Do you have a more comprehensive list of cards that you would recommend (possibly) removing from you decks? I feel like you just hit the tip of the iceberg. This is the type of magic I want to play. :)
So I have a grixis deck with Bolas the Ravager as the commander which has 2 themes. The first is Nicol Bolas where I have every bolas card and a lot of the cards that directly feature bolas such as torment of hailfire, slave of bolas, and cruel ultimatum. But then my main overall theme i'm trying to do is theft. Slave of bolas works for both but then I also run expropriate because it fits the theme of stealing your things. I also have cards like minds dilation, empress galina, etali, thief of sanity. If I resolve either a torment or expropriate can you really say I am taking the win from myself there?
There's a dude in my play group who ran mono black Mikaeus. The theme was Zombie Apocalypse, so everything was Zombies and Skeletons and board wipes really cool, thematic stuff. He even had Engineered Plague in the deck for the single purpose of naming Humans as the afflicted creature type to fit with the zombie apocalypse theme. But then he throws Triskelion in the 99. Invariably, every single game he draws the Demonic Tutor and could search for a Zombie or Skeleton payoff, but he always tutored for Triskelion. It took months of telling him that Triskelion turned his deck from a cool theme into every other Mikaeus deck I've ever seen. He finally rebuilt it as Wilhelt the Rotcleaver and it's a much more satisfying deck to play against now.
That guy: OK, I remove triskelion. I now have only 99 cards in deck, so I will put walking ballista instead. Fine?😊
Lately I've been taking this concept further and I'll remove staples if they don't fit the decks theme...but if the deck is already jank and needs the help, I might run some
Totally agree. I run a fairly mid power pod (though to be honest these days it would probably be considered a low power pod due to power creep) and I use powerful cards and staples to shore up some supreme jank to try and meet a middle ground.
Thank you! This perfectly encapsulates the way I have been building my decks. People are always asking why I’m not playing infinites or just jamming good stuff “auto includes”. It’s not fun. I’m not here to play standard or modern.
I understand your point, why using 99 cards in your deck when you have a card that make you win ? For me it's easy, I use whatever to win. Control deck use that kind of strategy, they are slowing the game until they get the card they want.
My deck building rule for edh wincons: if it's not combat it's combo/ critical mass wincon and then one sudden "I win" mechanic that fits the theme ie halo fountain in Naya tokens. So I'm not stealing the win from myself but have it as a last resort to win in my theme.
I noticed I was putting in Conflicting win cons and it was hurting me. I’d get 1 combo piece so I’d try and tutor for another and then not draw a tutor or draw into the last piece but I’d start drawing the other combo.
Basically just became a mess of not being able to effectively get out one win con because there’s too many to consider and then the deck doesn’t function So I’ve had to reevaluate often to make the wincons more synergistic and be able to play off of the main theme or each other better
@robparizo4773 Exactly. As long as the alt-win-con is on theme for the deck, feels just fine to include imo. 🤘
I really appreciate your point.
Putting in random win cons or out-of-place power houses doesn't just steal the win, it steals a card slot.
A bomb that you use to win the game out of nowhere is basically a "win more" card sitting useless in your hand most of the time, when that slot could've forwarded the real plan.
All that said, I do have a UR spellslinger, card draw, flashback/storm, kiki-pester-splinter-exarch good stuff Jori En deck. But I made that specifically to be a jerk 😂
Really glad you made this video. This is exactly what I see in other players decks, usually new players who see something big and go "Whoa, I need that in MY deck" and they kinda have to get it out of their system because most experienced players that I play with even say that they're done with Cyc Rift and Mana Drain and Craterhoof because they say they just aren't fun, it's not interesting. The cards are too strong. One game I'm playing against my friend and we had this little battle on the stack because he was trying to kill my commander and knock me out of the game and I successfully protected it and instantly doubled my army and gained a ton of life and then after it all resolved he just went "Ok, Insurrection?" and I'm like "Oh. Well then you just win." and he goes "Are you sure?" and I'm like "Yeah of course. There's no way you don't win." The generic stuff that's like "I play this card. Can you stop it right now? Ok then I win." all just wrapped up in one card are just incredibly lame. I try to do cool stuff and my decks might be just a little durdley but they definitely aren't bad and if I have to play against that stuff then the odds can just become impossible. I've been putting a lot of thought into a Baba Lysaga deck that is thematically an evil witch build with dark magic and sacrifice and I'm looking through loads of cards and come across death cloud and I'm like "Ooh that would be a way to close the game" but then I thought "Wait. My deck needs help with a win con but this is just a cop out, if this doesn't win the game then everyone just suffers because they sacrifice lands too..." so as badass as I think the art is and thematically I think it looks like some huge toxic witch spell that just extinguishes life I'm not going to play it. I wouldn't want to play against it so I'm not going to play it against other people. Then everyone goes "You need ways to end the game" and "Your deck should have at least one way to win out of nowhere" which I don't necessarily agree with but what about something like Flying Crane Technique? I mean that doesn't win by itself but it does a lot of work and on top of it you can use it proactively for a win but you can use it reactively as removal/mass untap and do a bunch of stuff with that. That's pretty cool. People can't find more things like that to put in their deck? Ultimately I understand, we do live in a world where EDHREC says "play this" and a lot of people don't have the time to sink into learning/deck building and I don't like to tell people what to play or anything so it's sort of just a thing that you deal with so I try to look for ways that I could possibly stop one of those kind of wins while doing something that still helps my deck and if I win then I win and if I lose then whatever. Was going to leave a comment on your other video too but I didn't get to, you brought up Blessing of Leeches and that is a perfect card in my Baba build, I might have never found that myself. Also don't remember if I got Screams From Within from you but that's another great one. Your channel is the best at recommendations. Your memory is excellent.
There is one card I dread. I hate it with a passion. It's the only card I want to scoop when I see it. "Aura Shards"
It's a card of nightmares, if you don't deal with it, game is generally over.
@@MaKs2K5 Well Aura Shards is bad but it isn't THAT bad. It only hits Artifacts and Enchantments. That being said I don't like the card either and I don't play it and I don't like it when someone else plays it but it sounds like you might need more flexible removal. Aura Shards can't end a game by itself, unless maybe you're playing an artifact strategy and all of your stuff is artifacts or likewise for enchantress decks, then it could shut you out. Those are two specific strategies though and you should have removal options for both. Aura Shards is a card that fits in the conversation though being a generally very strong generic repeating value engine. It basically is stax. Lots of things people can play in place of it.
@@cd15turb3d I'm more of a balanced player, so I don't rely entirely on my artifacts and enchantments, but I really like having them. Aura Shards says no to this. I also do run removal for those as well, don't worry about it, I like to control the battlefield.
"Take a shot every time he says...."
Heh, this is very much what I often think when I happen to glance at deck lists. I prefer building my decks myself so I can keep them on theme.
I don’t play tutors for this reason. It gets boring winning the game the same way every time. I wanna think and put effort into a game rather than be on rails.
I agree that's why if I play tutors I utilize them in a toolbox fashion to grab whatever suits my situational needs
I agree 10000% I do the exact same thing
@@bradlnd7850 You are a toolbox tutorer like me as well?
Yep. In most of my decks I exclude them because 95% of the time you're just tutoring up what is the best thing in your deck and that's boring.
@@bradlnd7850 you don't play them or use them like I do to grab a tool out of the box to help me situationally?
There should probably just be a disclaimer that this comment would not be applicable to decks with an 8+ power level or CEDH. Those decks are going to have combos, tutors, play and win cards or OP Commanders. They’re effective at winning but not getting points for style.
I think this is more directed at upgraded precons, janky decks etc. for casual play, which is the type of game that demo plays. Play and win cards feel very out of place in that setting.
Where I would disagree in that context is saying that somehow these spells are acceptable if on theme. The example given was a Mill deck with Rise of the Realms. How does that make it better ? You cast it and get like 15 creatures in play, where it is basically a win unless someone can counter or board wipe before you attack… but for some reason, if you mill them to make it 40 creatures instead of 15, that is relevant ? It’s sort of like saying if I one shot kill you with an X spell for 40 damage that’s a cheap shot but if I get infinite mana and then deal a million damage to kill you, that’s on theme with a direct damage deck and totally OK. It’s just a disconnect from logic IMO.
These cards are either something your group is OK with or there is a rule 0 to exclude them. Trying to argue that a card is OK sometimes but not always is where Commander really breaks down as a friendly casual game and ends up with bickering and arguing instead. You will rarely have agreement on what is or is not OK.
I understand where you're coming from in your disagreement, and I agree with your take, but I think you may have missed the point in the take given here. I feel the reason he said Rise of the Realms fits is that it would be defense against graveyard shenanigans that keep you from milling them properly. BUT, I'm pretty sure that we can agree that there are better ways to counteract graveyard shenanigans, like Bojuka Bog effects, or Leyline of the Void effects. But, yeah, I don't think he meant to "steal the win" of a mill deck with an alpha strike.
@@julioborjon4389 I took his views as that when these types of spells have high synergy with your deck, it would make sense that you are playing them. They are not just a staple “play and win” card that would feel out of place…
My point was that the objection most players have is not that they are staples or that they are not on-theme but that they are anti-climactic “play and win” cards. So whether they have synergy is not the issue, it is that they are not particularly fun cards to play against in a casual game as they generally render all play up to that point meaningless. So when you have this cleverly thought out unique deck with all sorts of synergy and then you have a card that renders all that creativity meaningless with an easy win, I still see that meeting the same criteria for “stealing the win”.
"Your deck is meaningless" - great quote there
Thats a really good point and exactly why i dont put orcish bowmasters in any of my decks. First of all the pricetag on that bad boy is something else, but he consistently overshines whatever else youre doing. Everyone sorta rolls their eyes when they see that card cast just like the big good stuff haymakers like expropriate, torment of hailfire, etc. Its also not because im trying to make a quirky deck and not a good one. Im trying to make a fun play environment as well, and to me that means im making a competitive enough version of whatever my deck is aiming to do. Those cards arent necessary for that unless im playing my Vito deck i definitely use exsanguinate to heal bomb people
Bowmaster is no torment of hellfire. It's great in modern, not in edh. It's great value for 2 mana but in a vacuum it's not extremely powerful. People might roll their eyes because they know how expensive a card it is, but in casual commander it's not a big threat.
A deck that discards creatures to the grave definitely isn't the place for a mass reanimate card.
I'm brewing an Angel reanimator deck with Firja at the helm, and I opted for Patriarch's Blessing as a much more flavorful replacement for Dark Realms in my 2nd draft. This video really helped put words to my feelings about that card!
Damn, this is one of the coolest concepts I've ever heard, of what to consider when brewing a deck.
THANK YOU❤
I know as soon as I cast the card whether it really belongs in my deck. For example, I have a Lathril deck that put Craterhoof into once. After casting it the first time in game, I immediately removed it from the deck after that game. But Craterhoof is great in my Hamza deck, because it fits the theme, which is about big creatures and overruns and, frankly, my Hamza deck needs all the help it can get. But Craterhoof just felt wrong in my elf deck. I haven't won yet with Craterhoof in my Hamza deck, but I have won with Makindi Stampede :).
Yeah it's definitely unnecessary in Lathril. I own one but don't play it at all. I generally don't like those type of cards
There's no better feeling than winning a game having put a lot thought into designing a highly synergistic thematic deck. I think that's the point of this video. Your wincon should be the theme and synergy of the deck itself not singular cards
I have a 5 color jank combo deck that is only "I win" cards.
That plus fast mana is basically just cedh in a nutshell: it's why WUBRG decks are consistently popular in cedh and most others that sacrifice that part do so because they usually have half a combo in the command zone.
@@dimitriidI’ve never seen a WUBRG commander playing in CEDH. Not saying they don’t exist but idk if they’re quite as popular as you’re saying.
@@starmanda88you’d be surprised that there are quite a few WUBRG cEDH commanders
@@zweis 😆I had to laugh when i saw that. Those are literally two of the top 10 5c commanders there is! Kenrith is more of a pure good stuff pile, while Najeela is more thematic and combat based though
peculiar that people are saying "but you need these cards to close out the game". i've never put any cards like this in any of my decks, and i've won plenty of games.
“Weird take”
“Wow look at all the people disagreeing with me.”
To the people who disagree, I can only recommend you give Demo's method a shot.
I play the same as him, I'd rather lose or win on plan (well, deck dependent 😅)
@@Cocytus127 not exactly a weird take. If you ever watched commander gameplays on youtube, you'll realize that one-card wins such as Torment or Expropriate never see play these days. I assume because people wanna play fun, entertaining decks, and winning isn't an end.
@@guico33 agreed. i rarely see these cards anymore, so clearly commander players have found other ways to win games. likely more interesting ones.
There are times when games just drag. That can happen with decks that have weak win conditions, games with complicated turns, or when the "big splashy plays" get defeated. Heck, it can even happen with too many board wipes.
I definitely agree here that slapping Torment of Hailfire or Craterhoof Behemoth into any old deck isn't great deckbuilding. But there is a fine line. For a creature-heavy deck, especially focused on "go wide," Craterhoof is a reasonable finisher. Exsanguinate is great as a finisher for life gain. Torment is reasonable in situations where you are making big mana and your main wincon has already fizzled. Games do, indeed, have to end at some point. Demo states as much in the video, and that shouldn't be very controversial at all.
I had a friend who built a "lands matter" deck and didn't want to end a game with Maze's End...he was in complete control of the board and the game was dragging, so it was OK with everyone at the table to allow him to play Maze's End and finish so we could get in another game.
It's not the deckbuilding that's at fault. It's really what sort of play group you have and what kind of games people want to play, and what rapport you have with those folks.
I don't care if you personally choose not to run those types of cards but you can't complain if other people are
I’ll complain all I want lol my bro has a mono black “steal your cards and cast them” deck and it’s an awesome theme, but every game he gets ahold of necropotence, tutors for Gray Merchant, then wins the game. I complain every time he does it, and he is starting to realize he’s hardly playing the stolen cards from exile, he is just playing good stuff cards to win.
“Complaining” obviously has a negative connotation, but expressing my opinion or giving him a hard time is making him realize he is getting bored just playing of Black good stuff just as much as I am sick of losing to Gary.
No. I have won with those type of cards before. The wins weren't satisfying for me. The best type of wins have been when there was a back and forth in the game and I was able to set up all my game pieces in such a way that it assembled a puzzle.
This was my issue with my old Kess deck. I couldn’t close out ANY games so I stuffed in D. Con. Thoracle combo alongside demonic tutor. For just 7 mana (not hard with treasure and rituals) and d tutor in hand I can search up both game pieces and instantly win. It was entirely anticlimactic especially for a deck that wasn’t control, as it was originally a spellslinger deck.
This is ideal comander.
This type of thinking needs to be mainstream❤
Nice you're talking about this - definitely a sentiment I agree with! Building a thematic deck is much more artistically satisfying than leaning on "crutch" cards. If that's what floats your boat, of course!
I would say though that Expropriate isn't an instant win. If you play it into a board where you have nothing going on, it's quite likely that even with 2 turns and 3 extra permanents from the other players you're not going to win there and then. It lacks synergy with most things, sure, but you do need to be doing something to make it win for you.
Also, for Torment of Hailfire, another theme it fits in is X spells :)
My one deck that torment of hailfire 100% fits into is my Nicol Bolas themed Nicol Bolas deck. Because it is both a backup wincon if people kill my bolas planewalkers AND it has some of the best Nicol Bolas art on it.
The is only a couple of ways to steal the win from yourself literally. Divine intervention, Celestial Convergence.
I don't think this is a particularly useful contribution in regards to the topic being discussed in the video.
@@paulszki in reality the video itself doesnt even bring a good example, that rotdr was a good fit in that Grandeur deck
@@vittoriosavian9964 I don't think that's accurate - The deck isn't a mill deck at all, and its barely a self-discard deck either. Most of the discard pieces are selective rather than just putting a bunch of stuff in the graveyard and there are multiple pieces that are there specifically to get stuff out of the graveyard and back into your hand - its almost anti-synergistic with Rise of the Dark Realms in that sense.
Rise of the Dark Realms in that deck is basically a "I didn't draw anything relevant to my gameplan late game/all of my things got dealt with, maybe this card can save me because its good" which is exactly what Demo is saying cheapens the play. Whether or not you agree is totally fine, but to me rotdr is the "my plan didn't work, time to follow the blueprint" card - which I think makes a very strong argument for Demo saying it makes your really cool deck brew get overshadowed.
@paulszki nope it's exactly to the point
@@flywithafatguy5825 if you're a smart-ass taking everything and anything literally, yes. But why would you willfully ignore what a person has to say, because if taken literally, it would be wrong? I mean I know why, because some people like to put others down to feel good about themselves. "You're wrong and I'm right, if I completely ignore/misunderstand what you're trying to say." -> Good job!
There's like one other option and I will entertain it for your sake:
Maybe you truly think "a win is a win" and that's the only thing that matters, no matter the context. But his point is thus:
If you're playing casual (not tournaments for prize money, mind you) and you just out of nowhere play a card that immediately wins the game out of nowhere in your pod, it will feel unearned and like a waste of everyone's time, including yours. You won, cool, but you didn't win because you played your deck. You won because you drew the card that is an auto-win in your deck in combination with your commander. A 1-card "I win"-combo.
If you have trouble understanding this point, let's just take this to the extreme. Imagine a card that cost one colorless mana and it said "You win the game." Would you play this in your casual decks? Objectively it's the best card ever printed and playing it makes you win the game. Or would you recognize that it ultimately makes the game around it meaningless whenever it is drawn?
It's the same reason that catching the snitch in Quidditch is a completely dumb game rule because it invalidates the entire game, skill and tactics of both teams, if the snitch gets caught.
It doesn't matter if his examples are bad or his card evaluation skills are often ... questionable. His point is "don't invalidate what your deck is doing by playing generically busted cards that have little to nothing to do with your deck."
I've long stopped putting Sol-Ring into my decks because in 1v1 commander it just means I get a cheap win that ment nothing instead of having an actual play-experience. I have 5 copies of Rhystic Studies and not a single one is in any of my decks.
I have an X spells matter deck that I have torment of hailfire in.
Same here. It's one of the powerful x spells in my Zaxara deck. Definitely on theme for an x spell deck.
I play reanimator and i resloved rise from the dark realms twice and decided to remove it. It's a feel bad, either they scoop or the board gets way too complicated, too many etbs, i have to read all my opponents cards... id rather reanimate one big creature at a time and win with combat
Funny that was mentioned the "I run a I win card but still fits on the thematic of the deck" point. I run Aetherworks Reservoir, an all star "I win card" and run it with its best friend Bolas Citadel and next to it. However, with Woe strider and/or Visera Seer, you keep the deck theme while also having an unstoppable engine of cheap creatures to cast, life gain and aristocrat leeching at the same time.
What is the theme though? One is storm, one is aristocrats - you just have the 2 aristocrat pieces that make the storm engine go crazy.
It sounds more like you have an aristocrats theme....but cheapened it by shoving an Aetherflux/Citadel into it, which I think is the opposite of this video's message.
Not that its 'incorrect' to do so, and of course what is 'on theme' is totally subjective, especially for your own deck, so feel free to ignore my opinion as if I don't know what I'm talking about. To me it just seems you have a well known 2 card pairing shoved into a place it doesn't really make any sense outside the fact that you have actually on-theme pieces that happen to support it.
Hey, while I agree to some extent, I'm often encountering situations in my games that I while the deck seems to be working okay, I still don't manage to finish the game. For example with Kaalia, okay I managed to get out a big scary creature.. now what? I don't do infinite combos, there's a lot of damage that needs to be done for me to win, and now I'm also a big target..
About Torment/Rise, would they "fit" more in a discard themed deck? The discard itself won't really kill the opponents, and while you could put megrim etc in the deck it feels kind of flimsy.
My take on it is to find a wincon that I couldnt pull off in any other of my decks, or a wincon that is heavily on theme for my deck. Be it worldfire in my chandra deck where it is literally an "I win" card due to emblems. Kaalia? Master of cruelties just takes out an opponent outright, Avacyn secures you against a lot of interaction, Gisela is a sweet way to make your board even more threatening
Kaalia very often doesn't win games if they don't have combos. And while she looks scary believe it or not she's a very fair card. So fair in fact that if it was normal 1v1 games she would be a D tier card straight up.
If you're gonna win through combat through 120+ life you need to be doing degenerate things. HUUUUUUUUUGE pumps, tons of creatures, multiple combat steps, etc etc.
I do believe there are strong enough creatures to cheat into play that can help you close a game, whether it's with Kaalia or with a reanimation package so you're not fully reliant on your commander.
Now assuming you don't win the game, is that a big deal? To me it's fine, I'd rather my opponents give me a challenge than winning through a single overpowered card.
@@guico33 there’s a guy in my playgroup that kind of politics/intimidates the pod to not mess with him early game (he will revenge attack/destroy your stuff etc) and his decks are heavily value based so he’s probably going to win if the game goes long, which often happens. So yeah for me I do want to win at least part of the time. That’s also one of the signs my deck is actually working.
@@EyalDegabli how is it a sign your deck is working if you win with torment of hellfire though? Unless you consider than staying alive until that point is an achievement.
But it also sounds like it might be an issue with your pod. When my friend plays simic for instance we know we need to slow him down as much as possible because once it gets going it never stops.
The thing is with a card like torment, anyone could win with it. You played it. You won. The player before you played it. They won. I find it such an unsatisfying way to end the game.
I'm running Dralnu, Lich Lord currently and Tohf is a win con. It's also very funny if you give it flashback. Everyone will hate you but it's worth it
Excellent topic and it's primary point is spot on. I only have 'Torment of hailfire' in my "Aclazotz, deepest betrayal" where it fits the mechanic.
I only use torment of hailfire in my anhelo the painter deck. Few x burn spells really goes a long way copied
Same, only because I struggled to find a different wincon
X draw spells also work well.
Real wincon in Anhelo for me is 4-6 extra turns lol
I try to keep my win cons on theme, I put my Torment in my Malik Grim Manipulator deck, because I want people to sacrifice their creatures, my build also gives people a lot of creatures to sacrifice. So if they have enough to eat the cost, I end up getting a bunch of treasures anyway and I have a lot of treasure win cons in there too
There is truth in the idea of "stealing the win from yourself," but many games need a single "I win moment" to actually close the game. Games will easily go 2+ hours if there is no "I win" moment (something I'm not personally interested in). Even putting an Ulamog on the battlefield turn 5-6 is often not good enough to end the game. A card needs to be so strong that it knocks out all 3 opponents in basically a single cast (i.e. Expropriate, Craterhoof, Torment of H., etc.).
Could not agree more. This is why I've taken out Rise of The Dark Realms from Belbe and Approach of the Second Sun from Heliod. Winning with cards like these just feels bad.
These cards belong on the CEDH table or in tournaments
I'd still run Rise of the Dark Realms with Magar of the Magic Strings. I'm not just casting it, I've got to slap you with a 3/3 to cast it. Animating dubious sorceries and instants rules.
Outside that, I'm with you. I got a Craterhoof from the last loose pack, and straight to the trade binder it went.
When I originally put together my WUBRG-Matters Jared/Jenson deck, I used a ton of land searchers to go with the gates manabase but after 3 games or so I noticed that I was basically only ever winning (or getting close to winning) through Maze's End. Sure, it worked, but it didn't feel like it had anything to do with my deck theme.
Tivit, Seller of Secrets is one of the few commanders where Expropriate is on theme, it might be why I finally end up picking up a copy of it.
I'm making a new deck for a much more casual play group I might be joining that's a little lower power than some of my other decks and I'm actually enjoying forgoing the OP staples and expensive tutors for a similar reason. I've been bouncing around which commander to choose, but today stumbled upon a Tivit deck I was theory crafting a while back lovingly nicknamed "'murica" for all the effects that make my votes count higher in the variety of voting cards, taxing my opponents (mainly pillowfort stuff and a monologue tax in there for theme), and punishing everyone for my overuse of resources (sacrificing clues, treasures and the like). Between this and the jank, yet surprisingly effective, Lonis ninjutsu deck list I threw together, I'm just finding it's a lot of fun to go for theme and fun or uniqueness over power and staples.
TL;DR: Theme, uniqueness, and or fun > Power and staples
I know flavor is not something you care about but Torment of Hailfire is very much fitting a Bolas or Amonkhet themed deck. :P
I'm running it in my cycle deck where every card must be part of a cycle together with Torment of Venom and Torment of Scarabs.
Are U doing vertical cycles(common, Unc, rare) or circular cycles(1 each color)?
@@W4llh4k it's mostly vertical cycles as the deck is not 5 color and I have to run every piece. But I'm also running for example the Bubbling Cauldron set which stretches the definition of cycle a little bit.
I’m working on a horizontal cycles deck and it’s hard going
@@scaredycat3146 That I call a predefined combo. But dunno if there's an official thrme for that. Like the one with the artificer from tarkir, and vial of dragonfire, and the bow.
I guess I could agree in some decks, but I just put together a faerie tribal with Talion as the commander that focuses on dwindling everyone’s life, so I think in my deck, torment comes in handy to seal the deal
Spot on Demo! I wish all my pod would watch this video. This concept just makes for significantly better games
Someone pointed out that Torment of Hailfire is fantastically on-theme for a Nicol Bolas themed Vorthos deck. So I'd allow that.
I disagree. Almost every deck SHOULD have 1 card dedicated to an, "I win," card as a backup plan, or as a quick means to end the game on the spot for dragging on too long. It isn't cheating yourself out of a win if the game has degraded to the point where you are able to spend 15+ mana on a Torment of Hailfire, because that means everyone at the table has been spinning their wheels in a manner that hasn't ended the game yet (so you definitely weren't winning to have it "stolen" from yourself anyhow).
but then i just counter your expropriate.
@@quizzity4380 see. now you're just spamming my comments like the troll you really are. another troll exposed. just so you know, i'm going to block you now. the function is actually "Hide user from channel" which means nobody on youtube, including me can see anything you say on my channel. have a nice life.
I agree with this comment...having a back up plan (though I'd prefer to see it be more than 1 card) is sound in today's OP commander format
I immediately thought of my Gyome deck as the video reached your Deck Doctor clip. I have a Hulking Broodlord and Saw in Half in the deck because they play into the deck's theming of taking a tour through a restaurant that Gyome owns. Problem is that instead of getting pieces for the Cauldron Familiar + Witch's Oven, I would go for the Witherbloom Apprentice + Chain of Smog combo that I decided to put in because I thought it was neat in Golgari colors.
Now granted, my Gyome deck isn't intended to win with an infinite combo, *but* the latter of the two mentioned above has absolutely nothing to do with the deck's theme. And it always felt odd to win with said combo. Thanks to this video I have finally realized why.
Completely depends on the theme of the deck. My favourite deck Ive built is an anhelo the painter list that more often than not closes out the game with a torment of hailfire copied. It never feels like a phoned in win as the deck wears its identity on its sleeve and it feels satisfying to win with.
I have never agreed more with a take of yours. These "counter or lose" cards are the ones that most often make for forgettable games.
Expropriat fits in the vots theme. And I play it only in good stuff decks I have, exactly because what you said in the video.
My opinion is that you don't see the 'I wine' cards all that much anymore is because counter spells and protection spells are so good know that if you cast the 'I wine' cards you are likely to get it countered or be left with a player that happend to have the teferi's protection in hand at the moment.
I have some in some decks where they fit. I also will add them to other decks as a backup win condition where my decks theme/strategy doesn't have a solid or reliable win con. At least until I find a better win strategy for it while tuning. I do again try to make them work in the deck they go in and not take away from the deck.
You guys are resolving 8+ cmc spells?
Will you make a video detailing sime wincing to u think are fitting for some specific themes?
man i thought this was gonna be a video about cards people think are good are actually bad but it's a video telling me i shouldn't play cards that win smh
No it's more of use cards that synergize well with your deck. For example I have a Jetmir deck and my commander used to be the OG Hazezon from Legends. It was actually a deck I built bottom up, so instead of building around the Commander, I built around an idea. My idea was mass tokens and I have a lot of cards that synergize with token generation, even my removal spells generate me tokens. So basically try to use as many cards that synergize, work with and benefit your commander or deck idea.
Yea, I feel like it's not about playing cards that win you the game, so much as cards that lean in more towards what your deck does.
The first example of Torment of Hailfire can be put into any deck with black. Like, it's weird to be sitting across from a deck doing a really cool thing, wondering what's coming next ... and then the game ends with an anticlimactic Torment. Like, it takes the excitement out of the finish. Any deck could've played that.
Same with playing it on your end. Your deck's on a roll, doing its cooling thing and then you draw Exsanguinate. And then you win with Exsanguinate. Again. It kinda takes the wind out of your sails.
I think expropriate is a funny example. Normally my group will just scoop. The one time they played it out I took four extra turns and didn’t do much but draw a card and play a land for four turns.
I’ve done a value torment of hailfire, not enough mana to actually win but enough to lower life totals and thin out the board.
I mean expropriate makes sense in my deck since my whole thing is making opponents put stuff from their hand onto the battlefield and me cloning it.
I play this in my high power deck where all my cards make treasures and I use this to win by copying the spell. I see your point since I do have 30 decks.
I have Exsanguinate and Debt to the Deathless in my Queen Marchesa aristocrats deck, but that's about it. Plus, they're on theme. The whole point is to be widdling down my opponents life total and draining them. Once I get them low enough, sacrifice enough tokens to Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar and drain them of the rest.
Thanks for this video. I made an Anhelo deck that used a furystorm/magecraft as a consistent wincon but it did not feel satisfying since it did not fit the flow of the deck. What I've been trying to do recently is work on the flow and etiquette of the deck, making it more fun for my playgroup.
Torment is one of my control finishers, I like to use it as the finisher where my deck is designed to keep me alive long enough to win with it. I also like it in decks that accumulate mana to use with it like king macars gold or Gitrogs massive amount of lands.
I think a disclaimer is quite important in this video because of niche scenarios. For example, I have a Cirdan, the Shipwright deck that focuses entirely on player interactivity- more specifically I have included all ‘voting’ cards available in the respective colors. I can confidently say Expropriate has won me 0 games because it’s not designed to win the game.
Cards like Rise of and/or Torment are harder to justify, though, because I believe those cards are for more swingy and debilitating for opponents.
😂
Honestly, I've started taking these cards out already, but yeah this is a great point I hadn't really thought about if the card was actually just making my deck "irrelevant"
Im confused a bit if im for instance playing mono black or mardu treasures and i have quickly ramped up to a large amount of mana why wouldn't i want to play the card that can end the game over a card that just leans into my gameplan? There are quite a few decks where creating a ridiculous amount of mana is the point they need these bombs to actually win right?
what's the purpose of your deck? just to win? lots of people play casual commander for other reasons.
@@edhdeckbuildingpolicing the game just because you want to make everyone play a certain way is a buzz kill. Playing commander is about having fun and winning, games drag and sometimes you need 1 or 2 I win cards. Nothing is stopping people from playing interaction. People just don't want to interaction imo.
@@edhdeckbuilding nah I don't care if I win I think both the decks that I described have access to a lot of really good interaction cards. What usually happens is if I'm in the position of winning the rest of the table has a hard time building up a board state cuz my deck is full of interaction so we either play for 3 hours while I don't kill everyone or I play a card that wins the game so we can play another one.
I legit play these cards so when my control esque deck is winning. The game doesn't go on forever.
@@Knoxx96 who's policing the game? this is EDH Deckbuilding where i give people deckbuilding advice in the commander format. people can do whatever they like.
I don’t use many of those kinds of cards. I do have Exsanguinate in a couple of decks because they’re capable of making obscene amounts of mana and I wanted to have a strong X spell or two to take advantage of that.
the thing is, if you play cedh, there's no rule, take what you need to optimize your winrate, but if you play casual, you have to balance your deck with your playgroup, so maybe use those kind of card on weaker deck, abstain on stronger one unless it's in line with the theme.
also, expropriate would fit really well in a Cecily, haunted mage deck
I have a Korlash landfall deck! Instead of Exsanguinate or Torment of Hailfire I run Consume Spirit, which i think fits the theme of the deck much better and leads to way more hype moments/wins than the other cards because you still have to put the work into your win. Not everything in commander needs to be optimized, sometimes playing worse versions of cards can make the game way more fun and interesting
I have exsanguinate in my clavileno deck because every card is vampire related and it's an alt win con
Problem with not using these cards sometimes some decks won't ever win they just do what their theme is an never win an that's just boring an not worth even playing then or even worth spending an wasting the time building the deck
So if you lose it's boring but if you win with a one-card combo it suddenly becomes interesting? I don't follow.
@@guico33 yes in a way, playing a deck that is completely on theme that can't win an only just play the game on theme is completely unplayable an not worth wasting the time even sleeving the deck up
@@adamwarehime6444 Personally I feel torment is the worst cause it's such a deterministic wincon that requires no setup whatsoever.
To power up a deck, I'd much rather add strong card advantage pieces like a One Ring or something more random like a Breach the Multiverse.
Depending on your deck's strategy there's usually plenty of very strong cards you could consider that alone will considerably further your gameplan, but not assure you an on-the-spot win.
@@guico33 nope. Playing Dralnu here, and there arent a lot of storm synergy in UB. Unless you start swinging 50 damage with Aetherflux reservoir. And no, i wont try to kill 3 enemies just with attacks from tokens made from 3 cards in a 100 cards deck
I've sat at a table at my LGS where a guy resolved expropriate and still got 3rd lmao
same here haha we all went time and they drew 3 lands, played em, swung for 6, and passed
I have a Don Andreas deck. I run Rise of the Dark Realms and Insurrection. Insurrection feels on theme given Don's flavor text, and Rise is usually a way for me to get a big swathe of my opponents creatures on my board that are enhanced by my commander. Am I wrong for doing so?
I hear ya, and I mostly agree. However, one infinite combo that I love and, to me, feels on-brand for a deck, is my Strefan Vampire Clan deck running Sanguine Bond / Exquisite Blood, with a direct player interaction life/loss trigger.
Torment/Exsanguinate are outlets for big or infinite mana, Expropriate fits turns and robbery themes, and as you sad Rise of the Dark Realms can be a backup wincon for mill (and I would also add self-mill). Other than that, I am not playing these over any synergy piece.
I have a 5 color omnath with a 3 color theme (I now that it works with any 3 color pips, but thats the theme) and I ended taking out torment of hailfire for other 3 color cards to win, I like it more like it is now
I completely agree with everything you said in this video. Big W for this take and publicizing it
The issue I see with 'I Win' cards is that - in a GENERAL game - they just steal the fun away and make it anti-climatic, while in your own specific pod it may be different.
I lost a game to an Alela deck because they just tutored Walking Bal with Heliod on board after a rollercoaster of a game. Stuff like that sucks.
Rollercoaster decks ending with combo, sounds like everything happened, and everyone did their thing. But as you say mileage my vary.
@troybone6849 I also encourage surgical answers to avoid these scenarios. If you can just wipe your worries away, there's no point in politics, and you may as well not be playing commander.
@@troybone6849 wtf is this take? I told you I prefer spot removal, and why. I did't tel you I dislike how commander is. I know ppl will sit together, and play different styles of decks, I'm just pointing out spot removal is way better than ppl give it credit for. I am advocating for "I cards", and for spot removal. Who's crying aside from you?
I was actually just considering that exact combo in a Kellan, Daring Traveler self mill strategy of sorts. The idea is that it’s a race against time and Kellan needs to set out to find tbe power source before it’s too late, Exploring and milling to gather the pieces of the combo to win.
@@W4llh4k Eh I disagree on your first comment. As you say, your mileage may vary, but I think in general if everyone is doing there thing, to me it means that the game was at least fairly close at many points and/or board states got interesting. And then a sudden combo win just makes it so it didn't really matter. Do the ups/downs really matter if someone wins with a combo that doesn't care about life totals, board states, or set ups at all?
Nothing against combos, and I'm not saying stuff like this SHOULDN'T happen - I just don't think it makes for a particularly positive experience, which I feel was implied by your comment.
I love making 50 mana with Jaheira and casting torment of hailfire RAHHH! 🗣️🔥
I run Expropriate in my Pirates deck since I pulled it in a Conspiracy draft years back. Seemed a shame to waste it, and it fits the Theft theme of my deck!
Additionally it rarely gets cast since my deck doesn't really ramp (and I kind of like it that way).
I have Torment of Hailfire in my Zaxara deck as a finisher. It's X spell Hydra tribal so I think it fits quite nicely.
I run it in my Zaxara deck as well. Mine is more of an X spell slinger deck, but fits in either variant of Zaxara.
I agree. I like commander because of the themes and creativity that goes into deckbuikding. I had Bond / Blood in my Hobbit food deck. It’s a life gain sub theme which works technically. But it’s not an aristocrats / vampire deck. It’s just two cards and tutors to get those two cards mashed into a Hobbit deck. Yes they could win the game. But in a boring way. Instead I leaned into the “feed my hobbits and make them strong” theme. I still added a couple oddball cards like, Nuka Cola Vending machine which is hugely strong in that deck. But instead of tutoring up an old tired combo, I get a bunch of rowdy hobbits all hopped up on food and Nuka Cola, cram them through a rogues passage and trample my opponent to death. I still win. But it’s funnier.
I have big X spells in my negan the cold blooded deck as alternate win cons. I basically force people to have nothing on their board as I slowly but surely rather more resources to finish them off through combat or x spells. That's why I run those type of cards.
My favorite deck is ludevic/olag self-mill ability tribal. It wins with a convoluted combo of necrotic ooze and activated abilities that leads to self mill lab maniac win. I often wonder if winning via combo stop my deck to explore his potential.
The deck is more control, so it really doesnt manage to win attacking, at some point if mills enough cards it wins.
Would torment be good in elves I’m sure it would right?
Only deck I have torment in is my nicol bolas deck for
Obvious reasons.
Same mine is also a discard sub theme
Thank you for saying this, Demo. This is one thing that’s always bothered me when I see people’s decks. They have some super cool deck and all of a sudden they win with some super overdone combo like avenger/craterhoof. Why? There’s no point. I have a friend with a beautiful ur dragon deck and he constantly tries to win with Jodah/morphon combo. He’s playing dragons! Some of the biggest baddest creatures in magic. Just attack! All you need to do is attack!
I mean, im sure the craterhoof guy is gonna attack you soon...
I currently have 13 decks fully constructed. 8 of which have access to black (seems I have a favourite color 😂)
I agree with not just shoving torment of hailfire into any deck that can run it.
It is however in 1 of my 8 decks with access to black though. it’s one of the win cons in my anhelo spell copy deck
I have torment of Hailfire in my "X" spells deck... now he's got me wondering if it does fit or am I playing it cause "good stuff"?... 🤔
I have a Beledros dragon typal deck that just happens to ramp into oblivion by my commander's ability. Since I create so much mana, I included Hailfire and Exsanguinate as backup wincons. I think they are quite on theme there.
I totally feel what you’re saying. I have a non-stacks, non-infinite lord high artificer deck. It focuses on flickering Urza and get a ton of stompy robots . But I don’t use cyclonic rift. Yes it fits and would totally make an easy win, but when I just spent the whole game building up an army of artifacts and robots and defending my commander, it feels bland to win with such a straightforward piece.
I would rather try to win with “mechanized production” for flavor and goal alignment
I like torment of hailfire in Tergrid (gross), Tinybones and Nath of the Gilt-leaf. Thats about it. Only place for Expropriate is voting theme ie. Tivit. Sidenote, I killed a table with Karma and Urborg in my mono-white deck the other day, it was hilarious.
This is kinda like when there isn't enough news so they just make up something inane to cover
I play Edgar Markov. I focus the deck on +1/+1 counters with life drain. So for me, Exsanguinate will be the only card that will go into my deck out of these cards shown. 😊
What you're talking about is skill expression. Earn your win through game understanding, not just by getting a lucky draw into a generic win condition.
YES! I hate seeing off theme cards! I mean i understand that theme is pretty abstract as far as EDH goes but it just feels so weird when youre fighting against a certain deck style, and then it just drops 3 typical good stuff cards in a row that have nothing to do with the cool stuff they were doing. Super boring! Especially since so many cards fit that fit into every theme you can find draw, removal and wincons that are all actually related to the gameplan
I have a blue/black zombies deck with Scarab God as the commander. What would be a good add in for the theme?
Lol, use Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire In My Burikos Party Leader /Sword Coast Sailor deck. I build up a critical mass of Treasures, and pay it off with those spells, or Cyberdrive Awakener or Rise and Shine.
I also use Insurrection in my Garna, Bloodfist of Keld deck to sack all the creatures for a big explosion.
These fit my commanders, but I thought it was funny you called me out :D
I have taken cards like these out of most of my decks, unless they are on theme. Same with staples in general. I play a lot of Commander, so I like to see things that are new and wins that are unique, seeing the same win happen for the 50th time isn't cool to me. So my Don Andres, the Renegade still runs an Insurrection but that's the only deck with it. It's always a nice feeling when you win a game and the pod is complimenting your deck that just beat them, saying it was cool to see X and Y cards being used because they've never seen them do that before, but I don't think I've ever heard a player in any pod say that the Craterhoof Behemoth play was really cool.
Personally I started taking out all of these cards a few years ago from most of my decks and when my playgroup uses them it always leaves an anticlimactic feeling to the game. Although I do admit that I play quite a few of them in my Elmister deck but 90% of the time, they are getting exiled to create 8-10 faerie dragons hahaha
I use torment of hellfire in my lathril deck. Because when I staff of domination and draw my entire deck it allows me to win on the spot with infinite mana
I also use insurrection in my blame game goad deck as a win con because the deck really doesn’t have a win con especially if I’m in a one V one and we’re both at lowlife
I run expropriate in my tivit voting deck, and i ran exsanguinate and torment in my grixis anhelo spell copy deck. But i wouldnt run them outside of those themes
I have no other way of winning in my dimir nymris deck: win cons are spread across multiple ways of winning:
hullbreaker horror, torment of hailfire, flip sheoldred. I can't win in another way but would love tips and advice ;)
I haven't had a nymris deck in a while but I used to run a doomsday combo in there. I think it was like doomsday, predict, lab man and brainstorm something like that. But it was basically like you just hit a certain amount of Mana and without interaction you just win the game.
I came ready to argue but yeah, I actually agree that goodstuff win cons aren’t particularly interesting.
For your Torment of Hailfire example, I’ve only ran it in exactly one deck which was Kagemaro First to Suffer (actually check out the commander, I think you’d find it somewhat interesting as it’s a ridiculously efficient instant speed board wipe in the command zone and it’s got less than 100 decks on EDHrec, lots of cool tricks you can do with stuff like Not Dead After All) and the only reason I decided to put Torment in was because I wanted a payoff for Skirge Familiar as I would routinely have unironically 40 cards in hand and wanted another way to win that wasn’t swinging at each of my opponents one at a time.
Did it feel a little bit cheap and was it irrelevant to the unique conbat trick aspects of the commander? Absolutely! I totally get what you mean when you call it stealing the win, but on the other hand if I was ever going to cast a Torment of Hailfire, at least there was some semblance of style and synergy with my hyper card draw theme in only ever doing so when I had to discard 34 cards to make the mana for it and say “X=32 :)”.