I felt like the thing with Thor dying was to show sometimes its too late and you won't always have a chance to fix the mistakes you've made. Sometimes you get blessed like Kratos and other times you don't. It connects to the sidemissions sometimes like with the chained creature and connects to characters like Fraya.
Was Also a way to show how cruel and selfish Odin is,since we've always heard how Odin was evil but it wasn't really shown to us until this moment and when he kills brok
@@omensoffate Absolutely, watching that scene a second time is a COMPLETELY different experience when you know what's going on behind the scenes with Odin and Thor.
One becomes accustomed to the chains that binded them for so long all the whole hoping for freedom. The simple act of becoming free and in control of your own destiny after so long it then becomes a death sentence.
46:30 just one remark - Kratos didn't reveal the story of his first wife and daughter unprompted. Freya aggressively says Kratos doesn't know the pain of losing a child, and then Kratos explains that he does. There's also initiative and motivation behind it - Kratos reveals his backstory hoping it will have an effect on Freya. He doesn't just want to suddenly share his story. He has grown over GOW 2018 and Ragnarok to know that his story can offer a perspective and comfort that could be helpful for Freya. He's consciously making a choice he is uncomfortable with because he cares about Freya. Also, Kratos referring to Freya as a friend is more in line with "ally" rather than a "companion" or "loved one". He definitely feels deeply indebted to her and mentions it multiple times - especially the first or second time they survive Freya's attack in the game. He mentions something along the lines of "she helped us, took Atreus in and healed him, etc and asked for nothing. We will not kill her." Lastly, regarding "prophecy", did they actually change it? I thought we (and the characters) just misinterpreted the prophecy - reversing Kratos's and Odin's role. That's why Kratos was so moved after finding the last prophecy slab after Atreus leaves, right?
How does one play the 2018 game and doesn’t come to the conclusion that Kratos consider freya an ally and a friend He literally owes her his son’s life, she loves atreus and she did everything to help them. Even when she cursed Kratos he still took her side and defended her at the end of the 2018 game And at the beginning of GOWR they say they have been purposely avoiding killing her for the past 3 years
@@mattplaysciv143 I don’t get how that’s a misinterpretation. We literally see Kratos dying on the mural. What is there to misinterpret? It’s blatantly Kratos.
tbh I thought that the exploration in between story quests made sense. In the halfgula side quest mirmir said that the reason for Kratos doing these side quests is for him to spend more time with Atreus, they all know the prophecy of Kratos' death so it makes sense to delay something possibly innevitable by going out on adventures doing the thing that bonded them in the first place
And also a reoccurring theme of the game is both mimir and Kratos saying they miss the old days and want things to back how they were With them just going to their little adventures, so it’s just them trying to recreate this
I loved the exploration in this game a lot better personally, because it's actually motivated by Kratos rather than Atreus, which makes me want to do it more. He's a lot more engaged than before and I love it because its good character development, he began to open up more in 2018 and now you see him caring about things much more, particularly for the side quests around some of the main characters. It feels a lot more genuine than other open world games and really helped me connect to the character
i agree that explained the exploration in the beginning but as more urgent things took place it seemed dismissive of the world possibly ending to keep suggesting going and having fun exploring WE COULD ALL DIE 😂
I feel like it depends on the point of the game, like I agree 100% about exploring more with the pair of them, and felt especially motivated to do it once Atreus finally revealed he knew the prophecy too. But at the same time, when in the sections where Kratos and Atreus are split up, especially when he runs off, the last thing I wanted to do was explore because the story had gripped me and I wanted to resolve it and have them back together. For the same reason I always found myself speeding through the Atreus sections and found the Ironwood too long, not cause it was bad, but I was desperate for the pair to share their information with each other.
His "old ways" are directly referenced when he chokes Hiemdall, and for other moments in combat. Mimir also points it out when he feels Kratos is unnecessarily taking lives, or his actions will advance them toward Ragnarok when he feels it could've been avoided. I think it mostly refers to killing God's, taking vengeance, ect.
@@YeOldeMachine well ya but this guy is saying the game suffers from ludonarrative dissonance when kratos says in the first game “anger can be a weapon” and the heimdall stuff is him losing control of his anger
Exactly. I’ve seen others like the escapist also make this claim that it’s ludonarrative disconnect and it just seems like they’re wildly misinterpreting what the story is conveying in the most simplistic and boiled down form that leads to takes like that
@@YeOldeMachine it lets you know writers purposely nerf kratos. Kratos didn't need to use any time shifts to catch Heimdall even though it's because of drupnr he outsmarted him. This is why no one likes the passive kratos except casual people. Kratos acts very depressed as if he's just a pushover now.
I disagree with Kratos and Freya never being friends. Not only does Freya help them after shooting down her boar who turns out be a shapeshifter, she saves Atreus from death because of a mistake Kratos makes in hiding his godhood from his son, only to return the favor by killing her son. He tells her his past because according to him she has a right to know since he owes her, for both his son and her son. Also, her side quests further flesh out her motivations and character. The people of Vanaheim turning their back on Freya and vowing vengeance on her after she marries Odin, which she saw as something that was necessary, I think parallels the actions of Kratos. Sure, they could've drawn this whole thing out for the entire game, but I don't think her partial forgiveness of Kratos is out of character in the way they've set her up.
@@DepressedFishey123 what happens too quickly? Them being friends is establish throughout the entire 2018 game until the events with baldur And in this game you get a super long mission with her that ends with them reuninting
@@Hyde1415 I don't agree. The dialogue was more self-reflective and introspective than it was "light". There was plenty of animosity between the two. I wasn't expecting her to go all "ZEUUUSS" on Kratos on every step of the journey, especially since he was willingly helping her get her freedom back. The thing with Freya is that even in her grief-stricken rage she's established as one of the more reasonable gods in the ensemble, certainly more reasonable than Kratos was when he was in as dark a place as her. At the back of her mind she knew Kratos really wasn't to blame; the acting when Atreus tries to reason with Freya in Midgard convinced me pretty strongly that she at the very least already had some reservations with her vengeance quest on Kratos, even before he decided to help her.
She didn't even forgive him at first,she just realised that her anger needs to be directed towards Odin instead and eventually throughout the game the forgiveness starts
The game doesn't try to condemn Kratos' actions or his violence at all. Its about the context in which he performs those actions and how he controls his inhabitations during times of great strain or anger. Its only Mimir and for a moment Atreus that questions whether going about performing the violent actions that start Ragnarok is wise and questioning whether Kratos actually has control or an idea about how to achieve the desired results. If anything, the game goes about showing you that Kratos has grown significantly and hes a man that rather than being controlled by chaotic rage can now be trusted to deliver on the promises he makes no matter what. Its kinda solidified at the end of the game when he has that flashback to faye and she discusses with him how grief is the culmination of love and how that part doesn't leave you and opening your heart to the love of others and caring for people around you even with how broken and lost kratos has been, will be the only thing that can heal him and make him the man he wants to be. Thats why at the end you see him finally tear up because he sees the faith and love his wife had for him and how she went out of her way to defy fate, for a man many would cast aside if they knew his past, to create a better future for him alongside her sons destiny even after death. I will agree that the game isn't as refined in the story telling by the slightest of moments and in some stages feels rushed. It's almost like they ran out of time to make a certain scene a cutscene rather than in game over the shoulder stuff. Also feel like the big epic boss battles lacked a bit just in how a god of war fight will often entail fighting a big enemy that will actively change the environment around it and effect the map of the game. I also felt like the maps in the first game were a little more dynamic and changed with the actions you took throughout the game and made the world exciting to explore and alive. In other words, this game is more complicated in a lot of ways and has so much going for it that I feel it sits pretty much on par in the best of ways. But I also feel like the execution in the first game was that of Lazer precision and incredibly intricate. This game is almost to that level technically, but it also feels like an old movie director who hasn't done anything in a few years, took the helm and wasn't aware of some of the new tricks out there that modern directors use. They still have the talent and can make something great, but it takes a little while before they get back to making magnum opus'. Not having a crack mate, fan of ya work. Just the way I read it.
I won't respond to this full post just the beginning where you said it doesn't condem or punish Kratos for returning to his old ways. I believe that was intentional. With the coming of Ragnarök, a war, the presence of a god that refuses to battle despite being the most powerful god there, and one time a war general, I'd be foolish for certain characters to be against it. Freya, Freyr, Brok, Sindri, and many of the realms would benefit from a God of War. Kratos has to be stronger than the peer pressure. It's not punishing him because it's testing him, his will power, can he be strong enough not to become a God of War.
Definitely agree. There's a line you can get in a sidequest with Atreus where he straight up asks Kratos "Is it always okay to kill something if it attacks you first?" and Kratos just says "Yes." That has always been his stance. Like you said, the thing the game is questioning is the context of those actions and even like literally how he goes about it. For example when Kratos kills Heimdall, even that moment of "regression" GoW3 Kratos probably would've raged even harder and literally ripped his fucking head off. But Kratos has grown even in his rage and just chokes him out in the end, and only after giving him several chances to back down.
The realm that stood out most for me out of all the realms even from the first game was Vanahime. It was beautiful and lush, at one point when I found the plains there was so much to do to explore I felt like a kid in a candy store,like I couldn't even decide where to go first. And then you find a hidden area within the hidden area. I don't understand how people can't appreciate that, they put so much love and attention into that place it's hard not to love.
I think the point is people try to defy prophecy without changing themselves, just to go against it, to try to avoid it, not to try and be someone who actually wouldn't end up in that scenario and that's the part that matter, not the fighting against the current but the current taking you to a different place.
Exactly The norns make a very big point about how it’s people’s nature that make the events so predictable If you don’t change, going against prophecy is pointless
Yep exactly. I heard this somewhere and completely agree. The moment the “prophecy” changed was when Kratos told Atreus he was wrong about closing your heart in war. That he needed to open his heart to others pain and instead of letting Ragnarok destroy the Midgardians he made an effort to slow it down and give them time to escape. This was when he changed himself and thus changed the “prophecy”
Right, not trying to sail up stream in order to avoid the rocks.. but instead you turn the sails or the propellers in order to change direction away from the rocks, not the current. Only by turning the wheel so to speak can you overcome the current.
My only gripe with this game is that Ragnarok wasn't long enough. The entire game leads up to this MASSIVE event where 8 worlds band together to fight against Asgard only for it to essentially end up in fighting a few waves of enemies & 2 bosses. Don't get me wrong the spectacle was amazing seeing the world serpent fight Thor in the background, Freya joining you & Atreus simultaneously, things like that, I just wanted there to be more of Odins family who were still devoted to him to a point they'd die for him unquestioningly.
This. I loved every bit of the story and side stories leading up to Ragnarok, but the end felt rushed and underwhelming compared to the scope and nature of the rest of the game.
even the spectacle of it was weak its really apparent the game should of been two parts or just cut the fat of 50 hours to 20 so much of it was just needless
The reason I wanted more is actually because of the number of gods and deities we never got to meet. I personally love the mythology, and the biggest thing I wish had been done differently is that I wish that we could have met Njord for example. When we first fought one of those stalkers, I hoped it was gonna lead to us meeting Skadi, the goddess of the hunt, or a fight against Hodr, who wants revenge for us killing his brother, Baldur. One of the most powerful gods, Vidar, we didn't even meet, and it's just too bad
I agree, I think there should have been another named villain in the story that you fight before Thor, or the fight with heimdal should have been longer. Or heimdal should have came back from hel or Valhalla as an even stronger version. Ragnorok could have been a bit more epic.
I actually loved the Tyr twist. I thought it was amazing, very shocking, and brought an entirely new depiction to Odin's character. We knew from being told how manipulative he was, and we knew that his kindly facade must be a facade, but nothing could have driven it home quite like that. The whole thing was a set up, even the prophecy that saw us finding Tyr, it merely prophesised Odin's trick. And we fell for it so hard. Showed him EVERYTHING, all our secrets and plans. And not only to find out he was Odin, but that betrayal, him killing Brok just like that for no real reason. That whole part shook me. It took some minutes for it to sink into my mind and for me to accept that we really never met Tyr, this whole time it was Odin. And once I did, I couldn't stop crying over Brok and the whole situation feeling so hopeless. Probably in part thanks to Atreus' va. My god that boy can act! I've seen some say that Odin's character wasn't fully developed, and if not for this twist I might have understood that more. But I think having him trick us so well brought Odin to life like nothing else could. I felt his betrayal. And I don't mind that the real Tyr was never present, in the first game it was always presented that he was long dead. Until the beginning of this game, when Odin tells us not to look for him. Setting it all up. I agree about finding the real Tyr in a side quest in the epilogue though. Pointless, I'd have probably rather not found him. It hit me hard to realise that him being alive was a huge trick. Finding him actually alive meant nothing. I actually thought they did it because they'd made his character model so might as well stick him in the game for real somewhere. But it made me feel nothing. Especually anticipating that it will go nowhere since this is the last Norse GoW.
Not only does Odin tell us to look for Tyr, it's Durlin the dwarf who tells you Tyr is in the mime and then later on Odin literally pops up with Durlin multiple times. Going back and playing again with the knowledge that Odin is Tyr is a different experience. The one thing like about the post-game prison was that it shows that Odin wasn't JUST impersonating Tyr he does this all the time with everyone. Which of course he can do because he can just raven teleport everywhere.
I agree with what you said about the real tyr in the game being pointless Hoovers I kinda enjoy is inclusion simply because it’s there because it’s meant to reinforce Odin just disrespecting and making fun of his legacy like the innocent light elf or the walking stick, it adds more to odins portrayal of tyr, still unless he’s in a future game I think his inclusion would be a missed opportunity
I think the point of post game tyr was to show how little Odin thought of people. Like when you find Odin-tyr he's this broken scared shadow of the person he once was. Odin thought that all those years of imprisonment broke tyr, but they didn't which is shown by the interactions with post game tyr. I think this is one of those things that aren't said but implied in a nice way that adds to the depth of Odins character.
I think the thing with prophecy is that wishing to change it is a _predictable_ thing, and hence how the Fates know that that fate will come to pass. Faye destroying the murals frees them from any kind of influence from the murals so they can do something they don't usually do, thereby changing their fate
Or the destroying of the murals was necessary to give them the appearance of free will, and in turn make what happened on the murals, happen. It's hard to say whats the chicken and whats the egg. Just like Freya dooming Bauldr.
Kratos telling Freya about his daughter makes sense as he wants her to know he understands the pain he caused her. He knows she’d be an valuable ally and a good thing for Atreus.
Exactly. She kept telling him how he can never understand her pain truly as she thinks he's just being empathetic. He wants to show her no he literally understands her pain exactly. Hell it's the whole reason he is who he is.
One way I think the side quests could have felt less out of place would have been to change the context around them. The game calls them favors. So they could have leaned into that and made it so that you're trying to build good relations with these different groups of people so that when Ragnarok begins, they will be more willing to answer the call to arms.
I felt like a big part theme for GOW 2018 was not letting the fear of your past keep you away from your family. Kratos was so afraid of letting Atreus find out about his past that he ultimately ended up pushing Atreus away and going through the game he has to learn to let go of that fear and be closer with Atreus. I feel Ragnarok is the inverse of that. Kratos is now afraid of the future but not his future, Atreus’s future causing him to hold Atreus to closely, the opposite of what he did in 2018. Just like in real life what your kids need from you changes as time changes and I think Kratos has to again learn how to get a grip on a new family dynamic, because as a parent he’s always learning something. I feel like the core theme for 2018 was letting go of the past and living in the present. While the core theme for Ragnarok was letting go of the present and moving towards the future.
Got the side content I disagree with the intent. I feel that, as implied in the hafgufa quests, it is to spend time with BOI before things happen where they split ways. Doing them all post-story fills you with the sense of a father who didn't get to spend enough time with his son, and makes you wish you hadn't sped through/spend more time with him when you had it. Source - Cats in the Cradle
Yep, I made that mistake. I thought “let’s get Ragnarok first, then I spend quality time with my boy”. Boy I was wrong… Second playthrough I will pause more, just to spend time with Atreus
@@Jannientjuhhh I finished it last night, apart from the first Midgard stuff, I did entirety of the side quest that are available with Atreus. So happy I did that! Though I wonder about Freya's commentary as well :D
I feel like Freya was considered by Kratos a friend. I feel that when she saved Atreus' life it was a major turning point in Kratos that made him open up more and in turn trust Freya with his life. He wouldn't want to kill the person who saved his son, he couldn't live with that. And I think Kratos started to talk to Freya about his past because he saw she was going the same way as he was in Greece with her brother and her thirst for vengeance and he truly, deeply didn't want that. He wanted to have Freya as an ally and he told her his past, painful as it might be, to stop her from following his path. It isn't out of character for Kratos as he tried to do it with Baldur, referencing his past, but he did it in a much more subtle way for Baldur as he didn't trust him and he wasn't as open as he was after he took off the bandages. I do agree the arc was rushed and they could've done better but I believe the story they told with it was a good story.
Here’s my thing; I replayed GOW 2018 right before the launch date of Ragnarok, since I wanted to get the gameplay & story fresh in my mind. And well, I thought Ragnarok is just a superior game in nearly every way. 2018 was a much simpler story; less characters, less threads to follow. Because of this I would def say it’s a tighter, more grounded story. But Ragnarok just has so much more to do, more moving parts, but maintaining consistent and compelling writing throughout. I think it’s hard to really conceptualize the whole story on a first playthru. There’s just a lot to take in throughout. But when you sit down to really put the pieces together, Ragnarok is masterfully written beginning to end. I will say, this game ISNT perfect. Neither was 2018. I too thought some of the set pieces in the last battle could’ve been bigger and more epic. However, I was still satisfied with what we got. To me, these games tell a beautiful story together. I don’t necessarily want to compare them, cuz these are absolute 10/10s in my opinion, despite the flaws they both have. Some things 2018 did better, other things Ragnarok did better. I could get DEEP on what I love about this game, the story elements, dialogue, character developments. It’s just brilliant all the way through. Not to mention the actual gameplay is better in every single way from 2018. But I’ve said more than enough I think. Great video! I think with time & second playthrus you’ll grow to love this game a lot more.
That's exactly it. Ragnarok has a much grander scope. Spreading ashes and trying to prevent the end of the world have DRAMATICALLY different scopes that ((maybe)) could have used another game to flesh out some more. Before I heard that the Norse games would only be two games, I would have guessed that the second game would end with Atreus being captured by Odin in some way and Kratos recruiting Sutr. There was so much to balance in this game and I think they did a damn fine at doing so.
I agree I prefer This game but lazzerz is right this needed either be a trilogy or 10 hours longer not only to flesh out certain parts but also cause it’s so damn fun to play I can’t get off of it. My day off I spent 12 hours in one sitting and didn’t even realize it cause it’s so engaging.
I couldn’t agree more . Actually on my first play through I missed so many hidden sections of the realms . A lot of the side quests add more depth to The characters . In my opinion as I’m on my second play through I feel it’s better to have as much of the side stuff done as possible when the credits roll .
8:27 I dont really think that's the message they were going for. The whole theme around both god of war 2018 and ragnarok is controlling ones emotions and not letting them control you. That's what Kratos has been teaching Atreus since their first hunt. 27:00 (guess I deleted this point when I edited this comment) Kratos is trying to help Freya. He's trying to show her how much he understands her situation(Being shafted by every being they meet, bad relationships with family members, losing a child). And hes doing all of this, sharing all this info about himself, because he wants to help the person (the god) who saved his son. He doesnt want to see freya in this state of such anger and rage. Also again he doesn't wanna kill the person who saved his son( sorry I forgot what I said in my original message and I kinda just ran through this one) 29:54 feel like the norns were leaving out key details. Especially after them saying "Protagonist worrying about the third act without going through the second". But the fate stuff confused me aswell
The fate stuff is that there is no fate, no mystical grand scheme Just extremely predictable people, who make predictable choices according to their nature ( Broke also talks about it during the mission when he mentions the form and the nature of a thing) The norn said “he still kill gods but feels bad about it?!” Because she is saying at the end of the day, killing to solve issues is all Kratos knows. Therefore no matter his actual intentions, his action will always lead to the same stuffs
@@anselmopat4985 Interesting, I got the feeling that they where manipulating everyone like that one story that Mimr tells with the witch's that tricked that chef into killing everyone for their own purposes, but your makes sense as well.
@@anselmopat4985 So the Norns were telling Kratos that he will die, not because he will die, but because they know that's what he needs to hear in order to behave in a certain manner? Because in the end, none of them defied their fates, everything in the giant's inscriptions came to fruition. It can get a bit confusing, almost like time travel, but ultimately I think it all paid off in the end if you truly follow it.
The Norns do not have the power the Greek Fates do. They only predict based on the people involved and say that Kratos is just so predictable that they can tell when he's gonna die. Kratos changes this after his dream of Faye on the eve of Ragnarok. He tells Atreus to embrace his empathy and compassion. Afterwards he says the reason they survived was because of Atreus's choices. By trusting his son completely, he survived. I think the mural stuff can be convoluted but it seems clear even Jotun prophecy is fungible.
@@HastyElderHaman I think the only confusing thing is whether or not Kratos and Atreus subverted the murals, or if merely they looked so similar and were left open-ended enough that they could be interpreted multiple ways. Not that they were SAYING that there are multiple options for their fates, but it's left open-ended enough so that they don't know, and in turn "create" their own fates. Or that the open-endedness of them is necessary for their fates to turn out the way they should.
27:18 What do you mean by "he's not at this point"? The last game literally ended with him realising that sometimes witholding the truth can do more harm than good, and as a result of that- revealing his past to his son.
You didn’t understand what they were trying to convey in the Heimdall. The tension in that scene wasn’t about Kratos slipping into his old self. It was about how no matter how hard Kratos was trying to avert the prophecy, he was being forced into decisions that eventually culminate in his own death. Kratos tried to spare Heimdall, hoping that would mean the prophecy is false. But Heimdall forces Kratos to kill him. This is why Kratos was flustered after killing Heimdall.
@@LazerzZ without me knowing much of Norse mythology besides through god of war & god of war Ragnarok. Where would you say a potential end point for a 2nd game if it was a trilogy & a start point for the the 3rd.
@@Emperor-Inker I think it would be interesting to have the second game explore the idea of prophecy being followed, take time to establish how it all works and then have everything line ups, Atreus is working with Odin for the mask, Kratos is falling back into his old ways, and end the game there when the two protagonists are divided. Use the 3rd game to bring them back together have the whole focus being the defying of fate and prophecy
@@LazerzZ the second game could had ended with atreus going to asgard. all theyd have to do is move some things around in the story, it wouldve been easy.
Actually, the combat being contrary to the message is the point. You feel good fighting, it looks cool and, most of the time, killing gets things done. However, if this path is followed, the prophecies will come true: Kratos will die, all the realms will be destroyed. I think it's a great analogy for addiction: It feels really good, and you can't get enough of it, but if you don't stop, it will destroy you.
That interpretation doesn't really hold up. Kratos is a pacifist from the start of the game, yet for some reason still absolutely revels in brutalizing every enemy he comes across (including intelligent life such as the elves) _except_ for a handful of story bosses who are deemed to be worth sparing. It doesn't feel tonally consistent.
@@halkon4412 1) I'm not gonna debate about Kratos caring about Freya as a friend, if to you that doesn't make sense- sure whatever. It does to me. 2) The whole point of that last strech is that "they must be better" to break the hate cycle, seek justice in the best way available at the moment, saving as many lives as possible. Mimir yells at Thor about how his daughter believes in him, how he still has a chance. Kratos doesn't even spare him, he just asks him "... But what are you gonna do now?" Like- I'm pretty sure that if Thor didn't have a change of heart in those last moments he would have end up getting killed by Kratos instead of Odin anyways.
@@halkon4412 It's not that he didn't kill Freya because he was a pacifist. He didn't kill Freya because she was once his friend, plus he's able to feel sympathy for the loss of a son, plus she saved his son(which probably weighs heavy on his mind, seeing as he killed hers). As for Thor, he's a reflection of Kratos, except Thor sees no purpose in fighting against his nature, a mentality that actively hurts those he truly cares about. Kratos sees a version of himself in Thor, and chooses to insist for him to be better for the sake of his family, as Kratos knows he can be. This is also the point where Kratos himself has to change: the only ones left are Thor and Odin, and he knows Odin cannot be redeemed, so it is his last chance to finally leave behind the destroyer he once was, whilst becoming a saviour. Basically, fighting against your vices is difficult, there are times when you're just gonna fall back into old habits(as Kratos himself admits), and you really need to work hard in order to become someone better, sometimes you manage to do so(Thor), sometimes you don't(Heimdall).
I definitely agree with your points on the pacing feeling off and rushed in places, like Freya's arc especially but in terms of themes there was one you didn't mention that I feel is there based on my interpretation and that is 'letting go'. This plays into the choice and prophecy angles and changing/being better but my take away was that a big theme across the different characters was their ability or inability to let go. Kratos had to learn to let go of Atreus so that he could grow into his own man, Atreus had to let go of his obsession with Loki's destiny, Freya had to let go of her hate. On the flipside, Sindri couldn't let go of Brok, Odin couldn't let go of his obsession with knowledge and control and Heimdall couldn't let go of his pride and arrogance. And it's that in combination with choosing to be better that I really feel is the central theme, the norns touch on it with their 'predictability' lines but I think it was more meant that a person's reluctance to change, to letting go, is what seals their fate, not prophecy itself, it's about the lesson to move on, to let go, and to change that brings about a better future. Granted, this isn't said as a 'this view is definitely going to fix your issues with the game' sorta thing, this is my interpretation on the themes of the game, but I do feel that it at least plays into it. Also, you make very good content so you've definitely earned my sub, keep up the good work!
Yeah I pretty much agree with everything here. The prophecy stuff with the ashes, the giants, Faye, atreus and Kratos was extremely unsatisfying, like they didn't bother tying up any of the major questions from the first one
The gameplay complaint is mainly from the devs answering the questions of people who were disappointed that in 2018 there wasn’t much variety to the kills that u did. The whole point of both games is that there are consequences to killing a god. Kratos killing Heimdall is essentially what cause’s Ragnarok also after Heimdalls death if u read Kratos’s journal he speaks on how he essentially enjoyed killing Heimdall showing that he was starting to slip back into his old ways so many people misunderstand that
What I got from the Norns is that no prophecy is ever written down, and Kratos’s warning about self fulfilling prophecies ties back into his and Atreus’s deal, and also into Faye destroying the mural. They were able to break free from predictability by not being driven by prophecy.
Cory: You’re not gonna guess where Freya’s arc is going I guess it would either be “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” or she would almost become what she hates by attempting to kill Kratos and leave Atreus without a father… she does both, well done Cory 👏 u almost convinced me otherwise
I think that the bit about avoiding prophecy leading to it is different from Kratos' case because in those stories, the person seeking to change their prophecy, actively falls into their own nature, and thus the prophecy comes to pass. In Freya's case, her seeking to protect baldur, lead to Baldur's death. Kratos' actively chooses to change from the person he was, and in doing so, he breaks from prophecy I do agree with everything else on prophecy being weird and inconsistent, although I think that scene with the norns was fucking awesome. The music, the fear I had when I faced the idea that Kratos, who I had followed for so long, could die, the way the norns spoke, the designs, everything was so compelling. I think the one Norn that predicts quotes, is also just sorta guessing what they will say, kinda like how the first Norn says "he resists the urge to grunt" and predicts that Kratos will grunt so as to show that fate has no hold on him. Also, I'm sorry if this comment comes off as weirdly written. I haven't slept since yesterday because the World Cup starts today and there's no way I'd ever miss Qatar-Ecuador, the game of the century
Also I think the champion was supposed to be up in the air because the secret shrine showed Tyr as the one that leads the battle during Ragnorok but since Odin imprisoned him he stopped that from coming true and Kratos took his place. There's many instances in the plot showing the prophesies of the giants being changed. For example, Sutr didn't forge with his wife, Tyr didn't lead the war, Kratos didn't die, and Loki didn't join Odin. So it shows you can change what the giants saw but you gotta change your nature to do so.
Nope. Everything happened exactly the way the murals stated. Kratos was ALWAYS the person in the murals with the spear. Everyone just thought it was Tyr because they both have beards and Tyr uses a spear. But little did they know that Kratos would acquire a spear in the process. Surtr DID forge with his wife's heart, so again, the details were different, but he still forged with her. Tyr was never supposed to lead the war, it was always Kratos, and Kratos was never supposed to die, that was Odin on the ground that was dying and who's soul Loki was removing.
@@lockekappa500 You got it wrong Kratos was supposed to die, but when he spared Thor, he changed his fate. There are no strings of destiny in the Norse pantheon, only your nature, and choices. Kratos was a Destroyer/Godslayer/Father, yet during the invasion, he told Atreus to save lives, and he spared Thor. Two things that went against his own nature.
@@zillagrilla315 Well yes and No. I do agree Kratos was supposed to die, and yeah I've since watched a couple videos with the director and realize that Kratos did indeed change his fate by telling Atreus to open up himself to their suffering. But I also still think that what I said was true in a sense. The murals ARE made in a manner in which they can be open ended and left up to interpretation. The dead body also looking like Odin because of his eye patch, the general with the spear also looking like Tyr but ultimately being Kratos with his new weapon. So thats what I mean by "what happened in the murals is what always should have happened" because there is no true destiny. That the giant's murals are merely an interpretation, left open ended. They simply didnt turn out the way Kratos and Atreus interpreted them, but they DID turn out in some capacity how they were drawn.
I agree with almost everything you said. My big issues with the story is 1. As you said, it feels like it needed to be a trilogy. 2. Atreus needed more time in Asgard, his interaction with the gods and the gods relationships with each other had to be explored further. 3. The ending was rushed and felt half assed. Imo Raganrök should have taken place in the third game.
This video really goes deep and it’s the perfect representation of what I felt playing both games. I think god of war ragnarok is still a great game and it officially made my top 5 list but I don’t think it’s anywhere near god of war 2018 at all, I think 2018s initial release and connection between new and old players was executed so well it can never be repeated to the extend it was, 2018 is a gem and great on all aspects. Ragnarok continues a great sequel but it’s lacking in many aspects that the first game did but also gave us what we all wanted if that makes sense. I love thors character the best in this series because you can see that he’s old and broken like kratos and even though he’s done many bad deeds for the sake of Odin he’s also trying to tap in what’s right for his family so you can feel a sense of sympathy for him.
I've never really seen someone confused about a game like this I've heard of people having trouble explaining why something's good or bad but never they don't know what they feel very interesting video james I understand how this was hard to make:)
I felt conflicted by the time the main story had finished, moments would happen where I hoped they would’ve waited to include them in a third instalment (I was a aware this would be the last game in the Norse setting), like how I feel the Tyr plot twist should’ve been one of the last moments of the story to set up Odin as the genuine antagonist of the third game, reinforcing the recurring theme of characters Odin being the enemy throughout only to have him to show his true colours by the end of the second game, same with Surtur, his appearance felt so rushed for a seemingly crucial character. I wouldn’t say I’m disappointed in the game as a whole, I’m actually enjoying the side quests a lot more that 2018s, however I did feel a little underwhelmed with the third act, considering it was supposed to be Ragnarok and it took less than 2 hours off the back of a 20 hour playthrough, however I was really happy with the ending, hoping there will be a third instalment with Kratos ascending to godhood.
Yeah, but it's a lot more realistic. Everything that happens needs to happen, when it needs to happen. There isn't much point in having lots of one thing if it's unnecessary. We don't need lots of surtr, we got enough, we got exactly what we needed for the story to make sense. Surtr didn't want what happened, but he did it because there's nothing else to do, which is the reason Everything that happened happened. Its a lot more realistic when everything unfolds quickly, suddenly! I know what I'm saying is confusing, but trust me, it's meant to make sense. Because the game is shot with one camera through the whole thing, we can't see what odin is up to while playing as kratos. If it was a movie we would be constantly switching between what Odin was up to, what atreus was doing, what was going on with Angrboda, etc. Anyway, my point is that we don't need any more of odin. The scene where we found out that he was tyr all a long was shocking, but it that didn't give us a new view on odin, we still thought that he was an evil liar. Before and after. The reason we had such a touching moment with brok when we got the spear, was to make books death scene more emotional. And both kratos and you as a player knew that you'd had enough. Odin had to die. We already knew Odin was a terrible person, the only reason the scene with tyr turning into him existed is to give you a shock, make you realise that everything you've done as preparations has become pointless, and to kill off brok and make you angry. It wasn't to give you any more hate for odin, because we already hated him. What I've said is confusing, I think, but again, all I'm trying to get across is that everything happening quite quickly is VERY realistic, especially when we consider who the characters are, and what their goal is
The champion is Atreus, it was the character that Atreus thought was tyr who turned out to be kratos, the champion and the god of war leading the army to Ragnarok have different appearances
WOW. One heck of a great timing for dropping this video. I literally just finished watching your epic essay video on 2018 God of War mere minutes ago 😆 It was like, destiny! Some kind of prophecy perhaps. I love it lol
I think the key difference between 2018 and Ragnarok was that 2018 has one single simple main objective that Kratos and Atreus share throughout the whole game: 'Get to the highest peak in all the realms/Jotunheim'. That's it. And sometimes they go off on tangents, or get attacked and have to defend themselves, or have to double-back, or get an item so they can progress, but that's the constant goal they're moving towards, which unites the various chapters into one coherent story. And it doesn't matter how long it takes, or if they do side quests, because there isn't any real time limit on getting there. Whereas Ragnarok is completely different because there seems to be an urgency pulling everything along, which contradicts their willingness to do side quests, and Atreus doesn't have a main constant objective at all. First he just wants answers as to who he's supposed to be and what his mother wanted, then he wants to find Tyr/Jormungandr/Freya none of which helps him, then he wants to prevent Ragnarok, then he maybe wants to cause Ragnarok because he might be the 'champion', then he wants to go to Asgard, maybe to spy on Odin, but then he decides he's not there to be a spy, then they want to kill Odin, and by the end he wants to go find the giants. Now, this vague mind-changing makes sense for the character, because he's a teenager trying to work himself out, but that's not useful for giving the player a goal to work towards in-game. Meanwhile Kratos' main constant objective is basically 'Protect and follow the boy, don't start a war, be better', which again makes sense for the character, but it's so vague and passive that it means the player is just being dragged around by the narrative rather than deliberately moving towards the climax. I feel like they needed to decide at the beginning of the game what exactly the main objective was, rather than gradually discovering it and arguing about it along the way, so there was a united front moving forward, i.e.: 'Bring about Ragnarok to destroy the threat of Asgard', except then a third of the way in, Atreus just disappears (presumably taken to Asgard) and Kratos (and the player) try to work out where he is and how to save him. It's not until later that we play as Atreus and get to see what happened to him and where he actually went. Jumping back and forth between their POVs threw the overall pacing off and made it too jarringly episodic, rather than one continuous story. The other factor that shaped the way the game structure flowed was that 2018 basically had Midgard, or more specifically the Lake of Nine and the Mountain paths, as the open-world 'home base', that the characters spent the most time exploring. The act of traveling to the other realms had specific purposes, typically story-driven, but Midgard was the home territory you always came back to. But in Ragnarok, that familiar safe zone you come back to between missions was basically just Sindri's House and that was it, which shifted the way the narrative stopped and started between chapters.
Very well put comment. 2018 was truly something special that set up for amazing sequels and I don't think Ragnarok was that in terms of narrative. Not only is the feel of the game different, but based on the things Cory has said in interviews and the things set up by 2018, Ragnarok is not the original vision Cory had back when he directed 2018.
GoW 2018’s ending was definitely better imo, when I finished it I felt super satisfied, and the game strong flows better too, Ragnarok’s third act felt super rushed
One of the best things is that this game and the previous one are so great, we can nitpick and critique them on such a high level. There is so much depth and story that when parts become a shallow muddy puddle, we can lament those parts because of the enormous crystal blue sea they're next to. For me, and it's not exactly a new take, the whole prophecy thing exists to state "this is what will happen unless you change, change for the right reasons, and in time to make a difference". Changing for prophecy sake or at the last second doesn't work nor does embracing prophecy for the right reasons. The end result is the same even if its for better reasons. Dying for your child and dying for your ego are the same prophecy coming true but two very different reasons for it. Prophecy is saying "this is your fate" meaning you, the person you are now. If you don't change and the person that prophecy was written for doesn't metaphorically die, then it will still come to pass.
I feel like the biggest mistake anyone could make it to rush through the game. I’ve seen i with several playthroughs even from seasoned GOW fans that feel like you do with the pace being to fast but not b/c the story is rushing through points but you the player are. The game does not rush you or say “now we gotta go to the next point” where in actuality it literally tells you after each story mission to stop and go to side quest and adventure in the world filled with content that doesn’t feel abstract or padding but rich and intricately tied with not only the story in general but at whatever point in the story you currently are at. Whether it be Kratos learning to walk with and support his son walking his own path, or learning key history and backstory to main characters that fleshes out and endears you to them. It’s amazing how people ran into this ‘problem’ of pacing when everything to the contrary was there for you that you chose to miss. I took my time and adventures after every mission and it paid off in spades in the end.
I definitely didn't rush, I played this game the same way I played 2018 or any other new game that comes out. If it were an issue with me I'd feel this way with every game ever.
@@LazerzZ I understand I wasn’t saying that you specifically but some other walkthrough that he specifically rushed the story to get a review out as he had a review copy.
The World Serpent recognizing Atreus in GoW4 is supposed to be foreshadowing for people who know Norse Mythos, because its foreshadowing Atreus being Loki as Loki births The World Serpent. It is a hint that is executed within that game at the end with the reveal Atreus is Loki, not a setup for more in a future game.
No in ragnarok you actually see them giving birth to jormungandr Atreus put a giant’s soul into a snake in ironwood. Later on angrboda tells him that serpent is growing enormous You see the serpent appear in ragnarok at the end, hence why they comment that this world serpent is “different” in the end The serpent recognizes him because atreus is his creator. It’s made very obvious
@@anselmopat4985 I also noticed that just before you fight thor in asgard he hits the snake and it disappears. So it was sent back in time a few years.
I think with the Tyr stuff it’s really interesting, because Odin is almost playing the role of the god of ‘trickery and mischief’ that Loki would usually play in Norse myths. Loki is ‘being better’ and so he is replaced by Odin.
I mean Odin was an also a prick in the original mythology he cheated, stole, killed and did so much for knowledge. Doesn’t help that a lot of context like his ties to Loki are more obscure due to lack of older texts and information not written by Christian writers through a Christian lens. Odin and Loki were similar in a lot of ways which is why they were blood brothers. Loki however aimed most of his mischief at the aesir and the enemies of the Aesir while Odin did it with anyone.
I think the main theme is identity and choice defines that. Kratos' desire not to go to war because he does not want to return to who he once was/his fear that he will become him. Similarly, Thor believing himself to be Odin's tool and his weapon with no intelligence, so Kratos' words to be better really hit harder then. Atreus/Loki figuring out who he really is and the rest of the cast. The importance of identity is even reinforced when making the Draupnir Spear. What makes you.. you? Your appearance or what's inside and your true nature. Choice is just the vehicle for that theme imo.
It sounds to me like you weren't expecting a grand, avengers style conclusion when that's EXACTLY what I was expecting and frankly, what a story of this scale needed. After all that was established, built up, and foreshadowed in the last game a typical high brow story wasn't going to cut it this time.
But what was so grand about the ending? The fight in the trenches of Asgard was fun, but then it immediately led to two disappointing boss battles with Thor/Odin, then the game was over. Jormagandr and Surtr, the coolest parts of the whole thing, were relegated to distance set-pieces. We didn't even get to see the realm's armies being rallied beforehand, instead the story NPC's just said "I know it's impossible, but don't worry I got this because PLOT" then wham it took like ten minutes
@@wingsoffreedom3589 I've seen a few others say that too and I just don't understand. If it were any longer it would have felt too long and bloated, and if it were harder it would have felt frustrating and intrusive. I feel like they nailed the finale just right.
@@MrEffectfilms Some parts are too long and some parts are too short. The game’s overall length feels fine, but it definitely could’ve benefited from some pacing adjustments
What I took from the prophecy thing is that they just see possible futures and their “prophecies” come from something like Occam’s razor, they say people are extremely predictable due to their common choices and paths they take. Imo it means you can change prophecy just by doing different than your typical choices.
“Alright, what’s the plan? What do we do next? Where are we going? We gotta go to alfheim? Alright, let’s go to fucking alfheim. Alright, now what are we gonna do? Ah, atreus is running away, ah fuck now we’re in fucking Asgard. Now we gotta become friends with fucking odin. Now we’re looking for pieces of a mask, ah now we’re back and we’re friends again. But ah we gotta go stop Garm because he’s tearing holes in things and now we’re back again and tyrs is actually odin wha what’s going on?”🤣
the side exploration does fit into the narrative because its mostly about Kratos spending more time with Atreus because he thinks he might die due to the prophecy.
I think the exploration during the game is best explained with the jelly fish quest, at the end Atreus asks why his dad is helping, n mimir says exactly what Kratos is thinking: he wants to spend time with his son while he still can. With Freya it makes WAY less sense tbh until postgame as now Kratos is to become the new all father n so try’s to protect the realms to live up to Faye n also because it’s what Atreus would want if he was around.
I agree with you 200%,and you worded everything perfectly,at the end of the game I felt the same way,I liked it,it was a good game but something felt very off about the story the whole time so when I finished I was more confused about what the story was,I literally thought I missed something in the story and replayed it just to see that I didn’t miss anything,they just dropped pieces of the story and left them, and then it felt like the writers tried to hide that part of the story with the moments between Atreus and kratos which were great. It seemed like it left more questions then answers and when your ending the “story” of the Norse era it’s feels wrong and then you think why were the plot pieces brought up in the first place if they had no purpose,no explanation and then for it just to not play into the story anyway. Everything else about this game is awesome it’s just sucks that what I played the game for was its weakest part
My main issue with the game was its third act. Everything else was phenomenal but the last bit felt rushed and would’ve benefited from having one last game. Thor’s death felt cheap as he was finally taking the steps to becoming better. I would’ve loved more interactions between him and kratos and maybe even a moment where they slip back into their old ways only to be stopped by their children. Odin’s fight felt bland. Him teleporting everywhere on top of the fact that it took place in his home felt lackluster.
Thor represents Kratos, who realized too late that he could be something more. Basically, Kratos 2018 did not go on a soul-searching journey with his child.
I was a bit disappointed by the gameplay too... I mean, i feel like completing Ironwood took twice as much time as completing Ragnarok. The last battle with Thor is good, but it does not top the first one (i believe it would have been more spectacular if you fought all around asgard to end up the fight at Odin's doorstep). Odin's fight felt a little bit underwhelming too... It would have been cooler to fight around the Nine Realms to end up in his study/basement (maybe the PS4 couldn't have run that). Storywise it was almost perfect
@@doctorgol9 my thoughts exactly. I also thought Thor’s final fight was pretty easy tbh. I get that we didn’t have our skills in the first fight but unless I’m remembering incorrectly, his moves were almost identical in both fights
20:45 Choice is important because this follows the same theme of the last game. The fear of relieving the past mistakes is the fear that Atreus will inevitably repeat his fathers mistakes because its his fate and therefore choice is the means of escaping that. There is no greater depth to any of those 2 themes
For me GOW 2018 to Ragnarok is similar to TLOU to TLOU2. The narrative went from simple, straightforward and focused to being expanded allowing for different issues with pacing to arise. For me, the game is like a 9.5 to 2018's 9. I feel like Atreus', Kratos' and Freya's arcs are better and more substantial here than the original. I feel like the comedy is better. The emotional moments hit me harder. And the supporting cast was more involved and added more to the story. This comment isn't very persuading, but these are just my feelings on it. I feel like it was an improvement over 2018 in almost every way and GOW 2018 was my easy GOTY that year as well.
At least for the prophecy part (if I remember correctly) Mimir says how prophecy’s are usually very weird and illusive and in the ironwood big they say how prophecy’s can be inaccurate (at least with the smaller things) so the way I took it was that giants future vision stuff only shows the most likely future for how the characters are when the vision is had (idk about kratos’ wife maybe there are multiple visions and she chose the best one for everyone and that’s why she was arguing with the giants on the mural in the first game?)
I did have more stuff to say about the other stuff you said in your video as well but I have a bad memory so I forgot most of what you said for the other stuff and don’t want to rewatch the video
Wow a lot of really good points. I felt very similar after I finished the game. 2018’s story was so tight and focused that this story felt a little all over the place. And the combat is mostly the same so it kind of ends up feeling like 2018 with a messier story
i have to disagree with you on the exploration, i loved it and found myself constantly going out of my way and going off the story path to explore and would find really fun stuff to do like the drauger holes or find relics or find secret bosses with the mysterious relic. after i got the relic i wend back and explored more of the realms because i tried to use the relic in combat to see what it would do and i woke up a troll completely by accident and had remembered in vanihime while i was roaming around that there were two trolls on a beach across from a berserker grave and when back and god that was exciting. i was also going back to do some side quest after getting the spear and wound up on dragon beach in svfartl and so a stone dragon and my first thought was hmm i wonder if the amulet would work on that two and so i tried it only to find out that there was a secret dragon boss on dragons beach which was so cool. the exploration was definitely way better in this game than it was in 2018. the only thing i will say is that the valks were way more fun then the berserkers lol i actually didn't like the berserkers because a lot of them feel super cheap and have the "its hard for the sake of being hard" feeling where as the valk had the opposite once you learned them they were easy with the berserkers you can learn them but it doesn't matter because they have stupid hard to avoid moves that will one shot you and there is nothing you can do about it except clinch your cheeks and prepare to die tbf i played the game from the start of my first pt on GMGOW so i did ask for it.
You have summed up how I feel about this game perfectly! Thank you for making this video, because, if I have to be honest, I wasn’t sure how to feel about this game.
I fucking loved the bar fight section!! I was laughing my ass off the whole time and just had such an amazing, fun time. If I could replay that over and over, I would.
I would say that honestly to me the bar fight and Ironwood where kinda like little mental breaks for you, allowing you to process what had happened in the story.
@@williamking1081 I really enjoyed both, they are very necessary shifts in mood for both the characters and the player. I dont think your average gamer understands how these little breaks are necessary. Constantly going 100mph will dull the experience.
I have a theory about the confusing nature of the prophecies. I read up on the primary sources of Norse mythology a little online, and I think the game is trying to set up two different prophecies. Kratos is filling the role of “Forbauti”(roughly translates to Cruel Strike) - Loki’s Father, and husband of Laufey. This actually fits into the original mythology pretty smoothly, as Forbauti is rarely mentioned, and Loki is referred to as “Loki Laufeysson”, instead of the expected: “Loki Forbausson” - taking after the father. (Spoilers‼️) in the original mythology, Loki is a Jotunn, and his good standing with the gods ends with the killing of baldur, (there was a slight timeline adjustment for the games, Loki enters the Aesir story here, already in bad standing with the gods.), and he fathers three children: Jormungander, Fenrir, and Hel with the Giant, Angrboda. Come ragnarok, Loki and Heimdall both die fighting each other - which should have been emphasized more in the game. When Mimir, Freya, the Aesir, the Fates, etc., talk about prophecy they are referring to the same Norse Mythology that I just discussed. Obviously some changes and omissions have been made for the game, but it works. Personally I think works quite well. When Loki is in Asgard he is fulfilling the Aesir prophecies - which are based on prediction - and ultimately fulfilling the events of Norse mythology. This works thematically as well, since Thor, Odin, Baldur, etc., all repeatedly make the same bad decisions that cause them to fulfill their own prophecies. The other half of this story, is the Jotunn prophecies. Those of Faye and Angrboda. These prophecies, I believe, are made with a more concrete magic - Giant Stuff - that allows them to see the future (maybe not perfectly, but at least better than the Aesir, or maybe not, who knows). In the OG myths, Loki enters into Asgard as a Jotunn. What this game is implying, is that the Jotunn have their own prophecies, separate from that of the Aesir, which are made to circumvent / subvert the Aesir prophecies. Atreus is playing the part of the Aesir Loki while fulfilling his role as the Jotunn Loki. They play off of each other quite a bit, but it’s two distinct prophecies which were made by two different peoples with different magic. This is all laid out across the game, but I don’t think the game really spent enough time setting up the Aesir half of the coin, and kind of got lost in the sauce. I believe this is where most people’s confusion is coming from, and why the message of “choice” can seem kind of blurry sometimes. My own interpretation of it is this: People like Thor and Odin who are stuck in their own ways and can’t see past themselves are going to write “prophecies” onto others, predicting that they will get stuck in their ways and make the same choices consistently. Those who truly know a person and believe in them will write prophecies that see that person becoming the best version of themself. While one of these prophecies is a little more hopeful, both are an attempt to influence somebody else’s life - for better or worse. While it is easy to fall into these prophecies: either by giving into the worst aspects of one’s self, and fulfilling Thor’s request to “bring out the God of War”, or Atreus eager to become the man his mother and his people want him to be. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to decide what it is from their life. Prophecy can be a guide, by giving examples to strive for and steer clear from, but what matters is what choices we make in light of these prophecies. “Knowing a prophecy” is to be aware of the stories other people will tell as a result of one’s actions. Kratos made the right choices throughout this game, and became a better person who does the right thing in spite of those who expected him to give into his past, and as a result he is presented with a better future as a god who is loved, as opposed to Odin who people “worship” out of fear. Goddamn it’s fun to rip things apart with those blades though.
I know I’m a bit late to this but i just finished the game and i want to touch on something you said about Kratos’s dreams of Faye. When he says they are more than just memory I think what’s happening is that they are just memories but after he stepped into the light of Alfheim in 2018s game Faye’s soul affected his mind ever so slightly and she is triggering these memories when his mind is at it’s weakest state, asleep, to help remind Kratos of who he wants to be. He says they are more than memories because he knows they are incredibly specific memories. Not just random flashbacks
Ypu actually bring up some great points I tried to ignore. Freya should’ve slowly been opening up with you throughout the game. Only be concerned for your safety towards the end and after the end. Kratos sharing his stories make sense since he is transitioning to become a leader again.
@@ItalianIrishguy because it has over 30 hours of side content. i'd been playing ever since the day it released and finished 8 hours before he uploaded this video
I think you really nailed it! I had similar feelings. Actually, I quite enjoyed the main plot, but then there was too much of being a collector in side quests. I would prefer to remove 20 hours of generic side quests and opening chests but add +10 hours of the main plot. I also felt like the main plot and everything else are like two different games. The main plot was really fast and involving and everything else was very slow, methodic, and repetitive.
The violence is fun and enjoyable for kratos too, he details that when he kills Heimdall. The point is that that violence is still indicative of a return to form for him, and also he isn't on this path to honor a loved one he's on this path for war
I don't know if this is intended or anything of the sorts but I think the reason the combat feels so epic and glorified in relation to the story is because it represents Kratos' addiction to rage. It feels really good to kill and I don't think they're intending to go the direction of 'Oh the humanity' when Kratos does these violent actions but instead they show how it affects Kratos and how if he lets his anger gets control of him it will ultimately just lead him to his own demise. But he doesn't do it to stop his demise, he does it because if he does die, so will the people he cares about. His anger is an addiction which can solve a problem in the short term (heimdall) but will only hurt him and the people he cares about.
It’s also because it’s a damn god of war game People want the epic, they had to compromise. If they made the gameplay more tamed down the game simply would get destroyed lol
I definitely think think that the champion of the jotnar thing will be further explored in an Atreus centred story but I’m not sure the horn in GOW 4 will be addressed in the games and will be relegated to a tweet from Cory barlog
Interesting video! I thought Freya stopped trying to kill Kratos because she saw that Atreus would suffer without his father, rather than suddenly liking Kratos again. Then she redirects her vengeance to bringing Odin to justice (vengeance vs justice seems to be another big theme of this game) and that's why she allies with Kratos. Then eventual friendship. I do think some of Freya's character development is odd towards the end, but when we first see her second-guess the choice to kill Kratos for the good of Atreus... I liked it. Her decision has a nice parallel with Atreus' hard-learned lesson about consequences at the beginning of the game, when in his grief he transforms into and kills a bear, leaving its cubs parentless. It's also kind of awful but on theme that Kratos and Freya kill Nidhogg, leaving her wyrm children parentless... yet interesting that Kratos chooses to help the lindwyrms, rather than let 'nature take its course' as he did with the bear cubs before.
The whole thing about the exploration not fitting into the story early game isn't really true. In the Alfhiem side mission where you free the giant jelly fish, it is established that Kratos is doing these things with Atreus because he wants to spend the limited he has with his son doing things he knows Atreus enjoys, such as helping people (which he also does out of good will), and exploring.
I think a big issue with this game is the distribution of story beats. It's not spread out evenly enough so the pacing gives you whiplash. If for example the 3-hour section where you meet angrboda was instead split up into 3 1-hour sections over the course of the story up until that point, the pacing wouldn't be as fucky.
Subbed. I Like how you think. However, i think this conclusion is sublime. We have played angry Kratos and saw how badly he didnt want to be that way. He finally achieved what he wanted.
My interpretation of the prophecy stuff is that they told the stories that they needed to tell. Groa lied to Odin about Ragnarok, but that doesn't mean the prophecy left over for the giants isn't also a lie meant to steer them. The Norns directly lied to Kratos, telling him that Heimdall plans to kill Atreus, but that wasn't true. Heimdall was not going to disobey Odin. They did that so that Kratos will be prepared for the fight against him.
This was a really great look into the game! I largely agree with you that the game felt kinda scattered in its focus. I felt like a lot of the story was about running around and completing tasks that ultimately did not pay off to the culmination of the story, nor did they feel like natural "steps" towards that. Personally interpreted the main themes of the game as something else, though the idea of choice was certainly prevalent. I read the game as being more about the characters being defined either by their past and future, and how some of them managed to break free of those restrictions. I also talked about the possible meaning of the Rift in my own video, as I found that being one of the most fascinating aspects of the game.
The story felt a bit weird indeed but there is a new fun and it's the gameplay. I just wished that the end (story-wise) was a bit longer. And I completely agree with your statements but I think people expected too much and let's be honest getting a sequel this good is impossible nowadays.
I’m sure someone has said this already, but I’ll throw my two cents in the mix. When Kratos said he was “slipping back into his old ways” I didn’t take that to mean with violence necessarily, I think it meant more that he’s slipping back into his mindset of doing whatever it takes to achieve his goal (in this case protecting Atreus), e.g. by brutally murdering Nidhogg and Heimdall. He’d become so focused on doing everything and anything to protect Atreus that he was pushing Atreus away again, like he’d used to, and was losing that trust in each other they’d slowly built up throughout the first game. That’s what I think he meant about falling into his old ways.
This game is just as good as the first one to me. Loved every minute of it. So I have to disagree. My biggest gripe is with what you said about Freya’s arc. She doesn’t immediately change her mind because she sees Kratos be good to his son, she stops because even tho she was about to murder him, he still stopped Atreus from killing her as a bear. He saved her life from Atreus even tho she was a threat, because once she wasn’t a threat. Once she was a friend.
I think that the main prophecy(the destroyed mural) where Kratos is shown dying is not actually showing Kratos' death but instead Odin's. If you compare the framing of Odin's death at the end of the game, it looks incredibly similar to the mural. In other words, the final prophecy was never changed. I don't know if this is the case, but I wanted to bring it up.
Actually, I think the mural does show Kratos' death but IF they continued on the path they were on. Loki being an agent of disruption and change in the myths also act as such here. His influence along with his father's willingness to change did change the prophecy, so instead of Kratos dying by Thor's hand, Odin fills that place due to his own inability to change and do better.
Excellent point, I’ve seen this mentioned elsewhere. Indeed the framing of Odin’s death is identical to the prophecy mural. But this brings another question: does it mean that we cannot, after all, escape from prophecy?
Loved to listen through because I disagreed with a lot of the points and that made me really reflect on the complexity of the story told. There were a lot of things that I've percieved differently while playing through and honestly there's so many layers to the characters/story/world to talk about. The other thing is that the pacing is different from GoW 2018 and I think it's just personal prefference for that. 2018 was indeed slower paced and felt more peaceful, but at the same time you have to take into consideration the circumstances in the world of the game which kinda make sense. Either way, great video. :)
You've really encapsulated my feelings. This game feels like it's moving at lightspeed but at the same time, languorously limping along...I think what made GOW 2018 so great is because the writing was focused and restrained. This particular game feels like it's trying to expand too quickly and feels awkward as result. It is by no means a bad game, just not on the same calibre as its predecessor. By the way, I get the thing of Atreus wanting to have an adventure of his own but if only we had a choice between companions in the end game (final adventures before he goes off to look for giants?). After all, it began with father and boy, kind of a cop out to end with father and Freya. Feels like they take too many choices away from us.
I am very surprised to learn of how much I am in agreement with your analysis of this game's execution. I finished my first playthrough a few days ago (100%, plat achievement), so I am familiar with all aspects you covered here. It felt like you articulated my feelings and observations of this game very well. I loved God of War, 2018 the best among them, and I feel that Ragnarok landed just slightly below the level that was set by it. I suspect it is due to Ragnarok being released as one game instead of two, though it's difficult to say if being a trilogy would make it better or worse. The "rushed" pacing became apparent to me by the early stages of Freya's arc. Her tone in the non-cutscene dialogue gave away too much about the outcome of their relationship, and it felt far too calm for someone who supposedly is feeling so much anger and hated towards Kratos at the moment. I also agree with your opinion on side quests. Granting us the ability to complete them while Ragnarok is coming seems to directly contradict the sense of urgency that the event is supposed to carry. I agree that it would be better and would make more sense if the side quests are reserved for the very end. In fact, one of it spoiled the outcome for me because at some point when I was going around Svartalheim with Freya as companion, she said something that eludes to Kratos having to settle with not having Atreus around by saying how Atreus would have been proud of him (side quest was about helping someone). All that said, it is still one of the best games I've played (loved the combat so much that I immediately started my second playthrough in harder difficulty level).
I just finished Ragnarok, and I felt this video put into words the feelings I had as the game concluded. A+ commentary. What I would like to see explored is the weird feeling of sadness I have in the post game content where I go to places I went in the main story remembering “oh yeah, here’s where Atreus and Kratos had this conversation” and, “oh yeah, this is what Brok said the last time I was here.” Obviously these deaths and partings are not real, but there is a profound feeling I still get from the game, which if anyone besides me feels this way, I think is an amazing achievement. Also, Mimir solving Broks riddle made me incredibly depressed, lol.
Also I think the concept of prophecy is that you can't escape it by trying to avoid prophecy, you can only escape it by trying to change yourself. If the prophecy is that you will be killed by your son then doing the absolutely predictable thing like sending your infant away down a river or something won't avert your fate. But if you contemplated why your son might kill you and you recognized your own flaws and actually overcame them (which a vast, VAST majority of the time does NOT happen with real people, that's why they are flaws and not mini character arcs to overcome) then it's possible you could change your fate. The fact that humans are so reluctant to change and prove this time and time again is why prophecy is so "accurate" but not infallible
I've been trying to put my finger on why I liked 2018 better than Ragnarok. While I was playing I had a ton of fun and loved the story but I wasn't as emotionally invested in it. I think James was on point when he said this was the "Endgame of video games". The first game only had Kratos and Atreus, and occasionally Freya or one of the dwarves which made the game feel really focused and personal, but because this game had such a drastic increase in its character cast I genuinely think it takes a lot from that story. There are a lot of characters that either serve no real purpose or are severely under utilized ie: Hildesvinni was a totally unnecessary character that added nothing to the story imo and Sif, Thrud, and Thor's story was genuinely super interesting and it is a total shame that they didn't go further with it. Generally it feels like this game has been bloated with different characters for the sake of not having every realm be empty when one of the reasons why 2018 felt so personal was because there was no one else, sure Freya and Brock and Sindri were there, but ultimately Kratos and Atreus only had each other and it was a story about them coming to terms with that.
I agree with the prophecy part.. During the encounter with the witches, it played out as though the future is set in stone, whatever Kratos thought he _could_ or he _would_ do won't change a thing. That gives a sense of dread & despair of the inevitable. Set the mood perfectly. But then, they switched 180 and I remember thinking "Sooo.. does prophecy matter then?". It cheapened the previous encounter with the witches, and made it felt like the mindblowing revelation of GOW 2018 ending didn't matter.
If God of War: Ragnarok is Infinity War, then God of War (2018) is Logan. Both are really great, but 2018 is better in terms of story and character work. However, Ragnarok is still spectacular. Together, both create a fantastic duology of games.
Hey LazerzZ, I really enjoyed this video and your thoughts on the game. I have the same feelings towards GOW 1-3 and 2018. I finished Rangarok a few hours ago, and am feeling a lot of the same things you are. I think you articulated those disappointments well in an "initial reactions" video. I like to do the same thing with movies, as my feelings on them change over time. I wonder how my feelings towards this game will age too. The only point of disagreement I had was at the "prophecy doesn't make sense" section. You actually explained the answer at 32:40. The message is that anyone can change their story, they just have to make the choice. If they remain to their own devices, then fate is predictable. But it's not as simple as "i just need to act like someone I'm not in order to escape fate", it is more about learning and growing in the ways that are not easy for our nature. Kratos had to learn to be a father, and his choice in the battle was the choice to be a better father for his son, growing from his old ways because he has learned what it costs to go down the path they were on. Kratos wants better for his son, and he must learn what all parents must - he must let go and let his son become his own person, and to not make the same mistakes Kratos did. He is choosing to be a better person, a better father, and that is all the difference it takes for fate to change. The message is growth and love, and maybe that's enough to change fate. I don't know if I am making sense, typing this at 4:00 AM after thanksgiving day. I would be interested in talking about this with you if you ever wanted to bounce ideas of someone. This was my first time seeing your channel, but I'm subbed and can't wait to see what you have in front of you. I'm gonna go back and watch that LOU2 video you mentioned, as I loved what you said about it in this video. That game got far too much hate. It wasn't perfect, but hated for the wrong reasons.
This game just felt so off, a mish-mashed Frankenstein of various concepts and meaningless story beats, and I agree with a lot of what you said. The single biggest issue I had with it was Ragnarök itself, which felt like The Long Night from GoT - an event that was hyped for years, but ultimately is over in under an hour and feels extremely underwhelming. And when you consider you’re riding a yak for a longer period than you’re fighting in fucking Ragnarök... make it make sense please.
Brilliant vid James, I agree with the points you made tbh. It’s nice to have a TH-camr who puts as much effort into their vids as much as you do, keep making that dosh
The pacing is the games largest issue. The GoW Norse Saga was supposed to be a trilogy, but the Barlog eventually decided to give us two games. Whether that decision occured before or after the writing for the saga was completed is likely never going to be revealed to us, but it certainly feels as though they decided to axe the third game either before Ragnarok's development started, between 2018 and itself, or during the development of Ragnarok.
I agree with this. It was a great game, I wouldn’t say I’m disappointed but it just felt “bloated but rushed”. This was actually well articulated. Great job
I feel like this game definitely needs to have a DLC that gives a finality to Sindri's situation. As for Freya and Kratos being friends. makes sense given that she saved atreus from dying. Kratos was mistrusting once he found out she was a god but he definitely respected and treated her as a friend the moment she saved Atreus' life. Personally this game surpassed 2018 for me. I was more invested in the story than 2018 and the enemy and combat were varied and better.
I LOVE this series, ragnarok is easily one of the best experiences I’ve ever had. I cried more times throughout than I did with last of us or red dead. It hit every cylinder for me. My game of the year and easily one of the best I’ve ever played.
Another Sony banger! This game was emotionally charged and had so many satisfying moments with character growth. When you look at GOW 2005 up to GOW 2018 up to Ragnarok, I’m just amazed at the evolution of the series. And the evolution of Kratos as a character 😭
I platinum the game this morning. It was worth the wait, can't wait to see where it goes next. There's a mural in jotunheim, and a poem of kvasir that hint. Actually the poems nod to Hzd and a couple games. Pretty cool little nuggets.
i think the only issue i had was there's times like i wanted atreus and kratos to say i love you to eachother, to be a little more chatty than through symbolic actions and fighting etc. yet that might be because i like soppy stories lmao
I'd say the story highs of this game definitely trumps 2018, but has much lower lows. Like oh my god, Broks funeral is probably the best directed video game funeral of all time.
![[Part 4] หนุ่มน้อยรักคุณย่ายิ่งกว่าใคร ไม่ว่าใครก็รังแกดูถูกท่านไม่ได้!! #โลกการละคร](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sLsBxw99FR0/mqdefault.jpg)
I felt like the thing with Thor dying was to show sometimes its too late and you won't always have a chance to fix the mistakes you've made. Sometimes you get blessed like Kratos and other times you don't. It connects to the sidemissions sometimes like with the chained creature and connects to characters like Fraya.
Good point, very good point. Noted down.
Was Also a way to show how cruel and selfish Odin is,since we've always heard how Odin was evil but it wasn't really shown to us until this moment and when he kills brok
@@LazerzZ the beginning scene with thor pouring drinks but not drinking because he’s trying to make amends for his past is so good.
@@omensoffate Absolutely, watching that scene a second time is a COMPLETELY different experience when you know what's going on behind the scenes with Odin and Thor.
One becomes accustomed to the chains that binded them for so long all the whole hoping for freedom. The simple act of becoming free and in control of your own destiny after so long it then becomes a death sentence.
46:30 just one remark - Kratos didn't reveal the story of his first wife and daughter unprompted. Freya aggressively says Kratos doesn't know the pain of losing a child, and then Kratos explains that he does. There's also initiative and motivation behind it - Kratos reveals his backstory hoping it will have an effect on Freya. He doesn't just want to suddenly share his story. He has grown over GOW 2018 and Ragnarok to know that his story can offer a perspective and comfort that could be helpful for Freya. He's consciously making a choice he is uncomfortable with because he cares about Freya.
Also, Kratos referring to Freya as a friend is more in line with "ally" rather than a "companion" or "loved one". He definitely feels deeply indebted to her and mentions it multiple times - especially the first or second time they survive Freya's attack in the game. He mentions something along the lines of "she helped us, took Atreus in and healed him, etc and asked for nothing. We will not kill her."
Lastly, regarding "prophecy", did they actually change it? I thought we (and the characters) just misinterpreted the prophecy - reversing Kratos's and Odin's role. That's why Kratos was so moved after finding the last prophecy slab after Atreus leaves, right?
How does one play the 2018 game and doesn’t come to the conclusion that Kratos consider freya an ally and a friend
He literally owes her his son’s life, she loves atreus and she did everything to help them. Even when she cursed Kratos he still took her side and defended her at the end of the 2018 game
And at the beginning of GOWR they say they have been purposely avoiding killing her for the past 3 years
I love this last bit about prophecy misinterpretation, had not thought of that before.
He got a lot wrong in this
preach brother
@@mattplaysciv143 I don’t get how that’s a misinterpretation. We literally see Kratos dying on the mural. What is there to misinterpret? It’s blatantly Kratos.
tbh I thought that the exploration in between story quests made sense. In the halfgula side quest mirmir said that the reason for Kratos doing these side quests is for him to spend more time with Atreus, they all know the prophecy of Kratos' death so it makes sense to delay something possibly innevitable by going out on adventures doing the thing that bonded them in the first place
Yessss just what I thought
And also a reoccurring theme of the game is both mimir and Kratos saying they miss the old days and want things to back how they were
With them just going to their little adventures, so it’s just them trying to recreate this
I loved the exploration in this game a lot better personally, because it's actually motivated by Kratos rather than Atreus, which makes me want to do it more. He's a lot more engaged than before and I love it because its good character development, he began to open up more in 2018 and now you see him caring about things much more, particularly for the side quests around some of the main characters. It feels a lot more genuine than other open world games and really helped me connect to the character
i agree that explained the exploration in the beginning but as more urgent things took place it seemed dismissive of the world possibly ending to keep suggesting going and having fun exploring WE COULD ALL DIE 😂
I feel like it depends on the point of the game, like I agree 100% about exploring more with the pair of them, and felt especially motivated to do it once Atreus finally revealed he knew the prophecy too. But at the same time, when in the sections where Kratos and Atreus are split up, especially when he runs off, the last thing I wanted to do was explore because the story had gripped me and I wanted to resolve it and have them back together. For the same reason I always found myself speeding through the Atreus sections and found the Ironwood too long, not cause it was bad, but I was desperate for the pair to share their information with each other.
The whole “slipping into his old ways” isn’t referencing the combat but rather his distrustful and passive nature with Atreus and what he wants
His "old ways" are directly referenced when he chokes Hiemdall, and for other moments in combat. Mimir also points it out when he feels Kratos is unnecessarily taking lives, or his actions will advance them toward Ragnarok when he feels it could've been avoided. I think it mostly refers to killing God's, taking vengeance, ect.
@@YeOldeMachine well ya but this guy is saying the game suffers from ludonarrative dissonance when kratos says in the first game “anger can be a weapon” and the heimdall stuff is him losing control of his anger
@@tbrown5836 exactly
Exactly. I’ve seen others like the escapist also make this claim that it’s ludonarrative disconnect and it just seems like they’re wildly misinterpreting what the story is conveying in the most simplistic and boiled down form that leads to takes like that
@@YeOldeMachine it lets you know writers purposely nerf kratos. Kratos didn't need to use any time shifts to catch Heimdall even though it's because of drupnr he outsmarted him. This is why no one likes the passive kratos except casual people. Kratos acts very depressed as if he's just a pushover now.
I disagree with Kratos and Freya never being friends. Not only does Freya help them after shooting down her boar who turns out be a shapeshifter, she saves Atreus from death because of a mistake Kratos makes in hiding his godhood from his son, only to return the favor by killing her son. He tells her his past because according to him she has a right to know since he owes her, for both his son and her son. Also, her side quests further flesh out her motivations and character. The people of Vanaheim turning their back on Freya and vowing vengeance on her after she marries Odin, which she saw as something that was necessary, I think parallels the actions of Kratos. Sure, they could've drawn this whole thing out for the entire game, but I don't think her partial forgiveness of Kratos is out of character in the way they've set her up.
I mean that's fair and I do agree but I think it happens way too quickly and isn't really stated or clear enough.
@@DepressedFishey123 what happens too quickly? Them being friends is establish throughout the entire 2018 game until the events with baldur
And in this game you get a super long mission with her that ends with them reuninting
@@anselmopat4985 I don't think that long mission justifies how she is now buddy buddy with Kratos. The dialogue between the two is way too light.
@@Hyde1415 I don't agree. The dialogue was more self-reflective and introspective than it was "light". There was plenty of animosity between the two. I wasn't expecting her to go all "ZEUUUSS" on Kratos on every step of the journey, especially since he was willingly helping her get her freedom back. The thing with Freya is that even in her grief-stricken rage she's established as one of the more reasonable gods in the ensemble, certainly more reasonable than Kratos was when he was in as dark a place as her. At the back of her mind she knew Kratos really wasn't to blame; the acting when Atreus tries to reason with Freya in Midgard convinced me pretty strongly that she at the very least already had some reservations with her vengeance quest on Kratos, even before he decided to help her.
She didn't even forgive him at first,she just realised that her anger needs to be directed towards Odin instead and eventually throughout the game the forgiveness starts
The game doesn't try to condemn Kratos' actions or his violence at all. Its about the context in which he performs those actions and how he controls his inhabitations during times of great strain or anger. Its only Mimir and for a moment Atreus that questions whether going about performing the violent actions that start Ragnarok is wise and questioning whether Kratos actually has control or an idea about how to achieve the desired results. If anything, the game goes about showing you that Kratos has grown significantly and hes a man that rather than being controlled by chaotic rage can now be trusted to deliver on the promises he makes no matter what. Its kinda solidified at the end of the game when he has that flashback to faye and she discusses with him how grief is the culmination of love and how that part doesn't leave you and opening your heart to the love of others and caring for people around you even with how broken and lost kratos has been, will be the only thing that can heal him and make him the man he wants to be. Thats why at the end you see him finally tear up because he sees the faith and love his wife had for him and how she went out of her way to defy fate, for a man many would cast aside if they knew his past, to create a better future for him alongside her sons destiny even after death.
I will agree that the game isn't as refined in the story telling by the slightest of moments and in some stages feels rushed. It's almost like they ran out of time to make a certain scene a cutscene rather than in game over the shoulder stuff. Also feel like the big epic boss battles lacked a bit just in how a god of war fight will often entail fighting a big enemy that will actively change the environment around it and effect the map of the game. I also felt like the maps in the first game were a little more dynamic and changed with the actions you took throughout the game and made the world exciting to explore and alive.
In other words, this game is more complicated in a lot of ways and has so much going for it that I feel it sits pretty much on par in the best of ways. But I also feel like the execution in the first game was that of Lazer precision and incredibly intricate. This game is almost to that level technically, but it also feels like an old movie director who hasn't done anything in a few years, took the helm and wasn't aware of some of the new tricks out there that modern directors use. They still have the talent and can make something great, but it takes a little while before they get back to making magnum opus'.
Not having a crack mate, fan of ya work. Just the way I read it.
Definitely a very interesting piece of insight for sure, thank you for this.
I won't respond to this full post just the beginning where you said it doesn't condem or punish Kratos for returning to his old ways. I believe that was intentional. With the coming of Ragnarök, a war, the presence of a god that refuses to battle despite being the most powerful god there, and one time a war general, I'd be foolish for certain characters to be against it. Freya, Freyr, Brok, Sindri, and many of the realms would benefit from a God of War. Kratos has to be stronger than the peer pressure. It's not punishing him because it's testing him, his will power, can he be strong enough not to become a God of War.
This was exactly what I was going to comment too lol
Definitely agree. There's a line you can get in a sidequest with Atreus where he straight up asks Kratos "Is it always okay to kill something if it attacks you first?" and Kratos just says "Yes." That has always been his stance. Like you said, the thing the game is questioning is the context of those actions and even like literally how he goes about it.
For example when Kratos kills Heimdall, even that moment of "regression" GoW3 Kratos probably would've raged even harder and literally ripped his fucking head off. But Kratos has grown even in his rage and just chokes him out in the end, and only after giving him several chances to back down.
The realm that stood out most for me out of all the realms even from the first game was Vanahime. It was beautiful and lush, at one point when I found the plains there was so much to do to explore I felt like a kid in a candy store,like I couldn't even decide where to go first. And then you find a hidden area within the hidden area. I don't understand how people can't appreciate that, they put so much love and attention into that place it's hard not to love.
I think the point is people try to defy prophecy without changing themselves, just to go against it, to try to avoid it, not to try and be someone who actually wouldn't end up in that scenario and that's the part that matter, not the fighting against the current but the current taking you to a different place.
Exactly
The norns make a very big point about how it’s people’s nature that make the events so predictable
If you don’t change, going against prophecy is pointless
Yep exactly. I heard this somewhere and completely agree. The moment the “prophecy” changed was when Kratos told Atreus he was wrong about closing your heart in war. That he needed to open his heart to others pain and instead of letting Ragnarok destroy the Midgardians he made an effort to slow it down and give them time to escape. This was when he changed himself and thus changed the “prophecy”
Right, not trying to sail up stream in order to avoid the rocks.. but instead you turn the sails or the propellers in order to change direction away from the rocks, not the current. Only by turning the wheel so to speak can you overcome the current.
My only gripe with this game is that Ragnarok wasn't long enough. The entire game leads up to this MASSIVE event where 8 worlds band together to fight against Asgard only for it to essentially end up in fighting a few waves of enemies & 2 bosses. Don't get me wrong the spectacle was amazing seeing the world serpent fight Thor in the background, Freya joining you & Atreus simultaneously, things like that, I just wanted there to be more of Odins family who were still devoted to him to a point they'd die for him unquestioningly.
This. I loved every bit of the story and side stories leading up to Ragnarok, but the end felt rushed and underwhelming compared to the scope and nature of the rest of the game.
Yeah it’s crazy how long you spend in vanaheim, ironwood etc. how much effort is put into those, only for them to then rush the big ending.
even the spectacle of it was weak
its really apparent the game should of been two parts or just cut the fat of 50 hours to 20
so much of it was just needless
The reason I wanted more is actually because of the number of gods and deities we never got to meet. I personally love the mythology, and the biggest thing I wish had been done differently is that I wish that we could have met Njord for example. When we first fought one of those stalkers, I hoped it was gonna lead to us meeting Skadi, the goddess of the hunt, or a fight against Hodr, who wants revenge for us killing his brother, Baldur. One of the most powerful gods, Vidar, we didn't even meet, and it's just too bad
I agree, I think there should have been another named villain in the story that you fight before Thor, or the fight with heimdal should have been longer. Or heimdal should have came back from hel or Valhalla as an even stronger version. Ragnorok could have been a bit more epic.
I actually loved the Tyr twist. I thought it was amazing, very shocking, and brought an entirely new depiction to Odin's character. We knew from being told how manipulative he was, and we knew that his kindly facade must be a facade, but nothing could have driven it home quite like that. The whole thing was a set up, even the prophecy that saw us finding Tyr, it merely prophesised Odin's trick. And we fell for it so hard. Showed him EVERYTHING, all our secrets and plans.
And not only to find out he was Odin, but that betrayal, him killing Brok just like that for no real reason. That whole part shook me. It took some minutes for it to sink into my mind and for me to accept that we really never met Tyr, this whole time it was Odin. And once I did, I couldn't stop crying over Brok and the whole situation feeling so hopeless. Probably in part thanks to Atreus' va. My god that boy can act!
I've seen some say that Odin's character wasn't fully developed, and if not for this twist I might have understood that more. But I think having him trick us so well brought Odin to life like nothing else could. I felt his betrayal. And I don't mind that the real Tyr was never present, in the first game it was always presented that he was long dead. Until the beginning of this game, when Odin tells us not to look for him. Setting it all up.
I agree about finding the real Tyr in a side quest in the epilogue though. Pointless, I'd have probably rather not found him. It hit me hard to realise that him being alive was a huge trick. Finding him actually alive meant nothing. I actually thought they did it because they'd made his character model so might as well stick him in the game for real somewhere. But it made me feel nothing. Especually anticipating that it will go nowhere since this is the last Norse GoW.
Not only does Odin tell us to look for Tyr, it's Durlin the dwarf who tells you Tyr is in the mime and then later on Odin literally pops up with Durlin multiple times. Going back and playing again with the knowledge that Odin is Tyr is a different experience.
The one thing like about the post-game prison was that it shows that Odin wasn't JUST impersonating Tyr he does this all the time with everyone. Which of course he can do because he can just raven teleport everywhere.
@@rabertoification Yes, but not with the Norse mythology.
@@Sheechiibii maybe not the Norse realm but Norse character's will still appear.
I agree with what you said about the real tyr in the game being pointless Hoovers I kinda enjoy is inclusion simply because it’s there because it’s meant to reinforce Odin just disrespecting and making fun of his legacy like the innocent light elf or the walking stick, it adds more to odins portrayal of tyr, still unless he’s in a future game I think his inclusion would be a missed opportunity
I think the point of post game tyr was to show how little Odin thought of people.
Like when you find Odin-tyr he's this broken scared shadow of the person he once was. Odin thought that all those years of imprisonment broke tyr, but they didn't which is shown by the interactions with post game tyr.
I think this is one of those things that aren't said but implied in a nice way that adds to the depth of Odins character.
I think the thing with prophecy is that wishing to change it is a _predictable_ thing, and hence how the Fates know that that fate will come to pass. Faye destroying the murals frees them from any kind of influence from the murals so they can do something they don't usually do, thereby changing their fate
Or the destroying of the murals was necessary to give them the appearance of free will, and in turn make what happened on the murals, happen. It's hard to say whats the chicken and whats the egg. Just like Freya dooming Bauldr.
@@lockekappa500 yeah, agreed
Kratos telling Freya about his daughter makes sense as he wants her to know he understands the pain he caused her. He knows she’d be an valuable ally and a good thing for Atreus.
For moments like this, I wish they got a short cutscene to give it some impact but no, Kratos casually brought this up while climbing a wall.
Exactly. She kept telling him how he can never understand her pain truly as she thinks he's just being empathetic. He wants to show her no he literally understands her pain exactly. Hell it's the whole reason he is who he is.
One way I think the side quests could have felt less out of place would have been to change the context around them. The game calls them favors. So they could have leaned into that and made it so that you're trying to build good relations with these different groups of people so that when Ragnarok begins, they will be more willing to answer the call to arms.
Exactly what I was hoping for too
I felt like a big part theme for GOW 2018 was not letting the fear of your past keep you away from your family. Kratos was so afraid of letting Atreus find out about his past that he ultimately ended up pushing Atreus away and going through the game he has to learn to let go of that fear and be closer with Atreus. I feel Ragnarok is the inverse of that. Kratos is now afraid of the future but not his future, Atreus’s future causing him to hold Atreus to closely, the opposite of what he did in 2018. Just like in real life what your kids need from you changes as time changes and I think Kratos has to again learn how to get a grip on a new family dynamic, because as a parent he’s always learning something. I feel like the core theme for 2018 was letting go of the past and living in the present. While the core theme for Ragnarok was letting go of the present and moving towards the future.
Got the side content I disagree with the intent. I feel that, as implied in the hafgufa quests, it is to spend time with BOI before things happen where they split ways.
Doing them all post-story fills you with the sense of a father who didn't get to spend enough time with his son, and makes you wish you hadn't sped through/spend more time with him when you had it.
Source - Cats in the Cradle
Haha. I love that song.
Yep, I made that mistake. I thought “let’s get Ragnarok first, then I spend quality time with my boy”. Boy I was wrong… Second playthrough I will pause more, just to spend time with Atreus
@@Jannientjuhhh I finished it last night, apart from the first Midgard stuff, I did entirety of the side quest that are available with Atreus. So happy I did that! Though I wonder about Freya's commentary as well :D
I feel like Freya was considered by Kratos a friend. I feel that when she saved Atreus' life it was a major turning point in Kratos that made him open up more and in turn trust Freya with his life. He wouldn't want to kill the person who saved his son, he couldn't live with that. And I think Kratos started to talk to Freya about his past because he saw she was going the same way as he was in Greece with her brother and her thirst for vengeance and he truly, deeply didn't want that. He wanted to have Freya as an ally and he told her his past, painful as it might be, to stop her from following his path. It isn't out of character for Kratos as he tried to do it with Baldur, referencing his past, but he did it in a much more subtle way for Baldur as he didn't trust him and he wasn't as open as he was after he took off the bandages. I do agree the arc was rushed and they could've done better but I believe the story they told with it was a good story.
freya is honestly just an annoying btch that is absolutely unnecessary for anything in the game.
Here’s my thing;
I replayed GOW 2018 right before the launch date of Ragnarok, since I wanted to get the gameplay & story fresh in my mind.
And well, I thought Ragnarok is just a superior game in nearly every way.
2018 was a much simpler story; less characters, less threads to follow. Because of this I would def say it’s a tighter, more grounded story. But Ragnarok just has so much more to do, more moving parts, but maintaining consistent and compelling writing throughout.
I think it’s hard to really conceptualize the whole story on a first playthru. There’s just a lot to take in throughout. But when you sit down to really put the pieces together, Ragnarok is masterfully written beginning to end.
I will say, this game ISNT perfect. Neither was 2018. I too thought some of the set pieces in the last battle could’ve been bigger and more epic. However, I was still satisfied with what we got.
To me, these games tell a beautiful story together. I don’t necessarily want to compare them, cuz these are absolute 10/10s in my opinion, despite the flaws they both have.
Some things 2018 did better, other things Ragnarok did better.
I could get DEEP on what I love about this game, the story elements, dialogue, character developments. It’s just brilliant all the way through.
Not to mention the actual gameplay is better in every single way from 2018.
But I’ve said more than enough I think. Great video! I think with time & second playthrus you’ll grow to love this game a lot more.
I did the same thing and agree. I didn’t like how they rushed some things especially the end, but the games way better!
That's exactly it. Ragnarok has a much grander scope. Spreading ashes and trying to prevent the end of the world have DRAMATICALLY different scopes that ((maybe)) could have used another game to flesh out some more. Before I heard that the Norse games would only be two games, I would have guessed that the second game would end with Atreus being captured by Odin in some way and Kratos recruiting Sutr. There was so much to balance in this game and I think they did a damn fine at doing so.
Well said
I agree I prefer This game but lazzerz is right this needed either be a trilogy or 10 hours longer not only to flesh out certain parts but also cause it’s so damn fun to play I can’t get off of it. My day off I spent 12 hours in one sitting and didn’t even realize it cause it’s so engaging.
I couldn’t agree more . Actually on my first play through I missed so many hidden sections of the realms . A lot of the side quests add more depth to
The characters . In my opinion as I’m on my second play through I feel it’s better to have as much of the side stuff done as possible when the credits roll .
8:27 I dont really think that's the message they were going for. The whole theme around both god of war 2018 and ragnarok is controlling ones emotions and not letting them control you. That's what Kratos has been teaching Atreus since their first hunt.
27:00 (guess I deleted this point when I edited this comment) Kratos is trying to help Freya. He's trying to show her how much he understands her situation(Being shafted by every being they meet, bad relationships with family members, losing a child). And hes doing all of this, sharing all this info about himself, because he wants to help the person (the god) who saved his son. He doesnt want to see freya in this state of such anger and rage. Also again he doesn't wanna kill the person who saved his son( sorry I forgot what I said in my original message and I kinda just ran through this one)
29:54 feel like the norns were leaving out key details. Especially after them saying "Protagonist worrying about the third act without going through the second". But the fate stuff confused me aswell
The fate stuff is that there is no fate, no mystical grand scheme
Just extremely predictable people, who make predictable choices according to their nature
( Broke also talks about it during the mission when he mentions the form and the nature of a thing)
The norn said “he still kill gods but feels bad about it?!” Because she is saying at the end of the day, killing to solve issues is all Kratos knows. Therefore no matter his actual intentions, his action will always lead to the same stuffs
@@anselmopat4985 Interesting, I got the feeling that they where manipulating everyone like that one story that Mimr tells with the witch's that tricked that chef into killing everyone for their own purposes, but your makes sense as well.
@@anselmopat4985 So the Norns were telling Kratos that he will die, not because he will die, but because they know that's what he needs to hear in order to behave in a certain manner? Because in the end, none of them defied their fates, everything in the giant's inscriptions came to fruition. It can get a bit confusing, almost like time travel, but ultimately I think it all paid off in the end if you truly follow it.
The Norns do not have the power the Greek Fates do. They only predict based on the people involved and say that Kratos is just so predictable that they can tell when he's gonna die.
Kratos changes this after his dream of Faye on the eve of Ragnarok. He tells Atreus to embrace his empathy and compassion. Afterwards he says the reason they survived was because of Atreus's choices. By trusting his son completely, he survived.
I think the mural stuff can be convoluted but it seems clear even Jotun prophecy is fungible.
@@HastyElderHaman I think the only confusing thing is whether or not Kratos and Atreus subverted the murals, or if merely they looked so similar and were left open-ended enough that they could be interpreted multiple ways. Not that they were SAYING that there are multiple options for their fates, but it's left open-ended enough so that they don't know, and in turn "create" their own fates. Or that the open-endedness of them is necessary for their fates to turn out the way they should.
27:18 What do you mean by "he's not at this point"? The last game literally ended with him realising that sometimes witholding the truth can do more harm than good, and as a result of that- revealing his past to his son.
You didn’t understand what they were trying to convey in the Heimdall. The tension in that scene wasn’t about Kratos slipping into his old self. It was about how no matter how hard Kratos was trying to avert the prophecy, he was being forced into decisions that eventually culminate in his own death. Kratos tried to spare Heimdall, hoping that would mean the prophecy is false. But Heimdall forces Kratos to kill him. This is why Kratos was flustered after killing Heimdall.
This is a fair take, could definitely be the case here. Like I said, I'm still gathering my thoughts and putting the pieces together.
@@LazerzZ without me knowing much of Norse mythology besides through god of war & god of war Ragnarok. Where would you say a potential end point for a 2nd game if it was a trilogy & a start point for the the 3rd.
@@Emperor-Inker I think it would be interesting to have the second game explore the idea of prophecy being followed, take time to establish how it all works and then have everything line ups, Atreus is working with Odin for the mask, Kratos is falling back into his old ways, and end the game there when the two protagonists are divided. Use the 3rd game to bring them back together have the whole focus being the defying of fate and prophecy
@@LazerzZ the second game could had ended with atreus going to asgard. all theyd have to do is move some things around in the story, it wouldve been easy.
2018 was about letting go of the past, 2022 is about how to build a better future. It's basically the two parts of 'we must be better'.
Actually, the combat being contrary to the message is the point.
You feel good fighting, it looks cool and, most of the time, killing gets things done. However, if this path is followed, the prophecies will come true: Kratos will die, all the realms will be destroyed.
I think it's a great analogy for addiction: It feels really good, and you can't get enough of it, but if you don't stop, it will destroy you.
That interpretation doesn't really hold up. Kratos is a pacifist from the start of the game, yet for some reason still absolutely revels in brutalizing every enemy he comes across (including intelligent life such as the elves) _except_ for a handful of story bosses who are deemed to be worth sparing. It doesn't feel tonally consistent.
@@halkon4412 He's not a pacifist, he just doesn't want Atreus to go to war, that's the whole point of the conflict between them.
@@deff1044 I don't think killing Freya would have led to any kind of war. Plus, he still spares Thor at the end while they're already *at* war.
@@halkon4412 1) I'm not gonna debate about Kratos caring about Freya as a friend, if to you that doesn't make sense- sure whatever. It does to me.
2) The whole point of that last strech is that "they must be better" to break the hate cycle, seek justice in the best way available at the moment, saving as many lives as possible.
Mimir yells at Thor about how his daughter believes in him, how he still has a chance. Kratos doesn't even spare him, he just asks him "... But what are you gonna do now?" Like- I'm pretty sure that if Thor didn't have a change of heart in those last moments he would have end up getting killed by Kratos instead of Odin anyways.
@@halkon4412 It's not that he didn't kill Freya because he was a pacifist.
He didn't kill Freya because she was once his friend, plus he's able to feel sympathy for the loss of a son, plus she saved his son(which probably weighs heavy on his mind, seeing as he killed hers).
As for Thor, he's a reflection of Kratos, except Thor sees no purpose in fighting against his nature, a mentality that actively hurts those he truly cares about. Kratos sees a version of himself in Thor, and chooses to insist for him to be better for the sake of his family, as Kratos knows he can be.
This is also the point where Kratos himself has to change: the only ones left are Thor and Odin, and he knows Odin cannot be redeemed, so it is his last chance to finally leave behind the destroyer he once was, whilst becoming a saviour.
Basically, fighting against your vices is difficult, there are times when you're just gonna fall back into old habits(as Kratos himself admits), and you really need to work hard in order to become someone better, sometimes you manage to do so(Thor), sometimes you don't(Heimdall).
I definitely agree with your points on the pacing feeling off and rushed in places, like Freya's arc especially but in terms of themes there was one you didn't mention that I feel is there based on my interpretation and that is 'letting go'.
This plays into the choice and prophecy angles and changing/being better but my take away was that a big theme across the different characters was their ability or inability to let go. Kratos had to learn to let go of Atreus so that he could grow into his own man, Atreus had to let go of his obsession with Loki's destiny, Freya had to let go of her hate. On the flipside, Sindri couldn't let go of Brok, Odin couldn't let go of his obsession with knowledge and control and Heimdall couldn't let go of his pride and arrogance.
And it's that in combination with choosing to be better that I really feel is the central theme, the norns touch on it with their 'predictability' lines but I think it was more meant that a person's reluctance to change, to letting go, is what seals their fate, not prophecy itself, it's about the lesson to move on, to let go, and to change that brings about a better future.
Granted, this isn't said as a 'this view is definitely going to fix your issues with the game' sorta thing, this is my interpretation on the themes of the game, but I do feel that it at least plays into it. Also, you make very good content so you've definitely earned my sub, keep up the good work!
Yeah I pretty much agree with everything here. The prophecy stuff with the ashes, the giants, Faye, atreus and Kratos was extremely unsatisfying, like they didn't bother tying up any of the major questions from the first one
The gameplay complaint is mainly from the devs answering the questions of people who were disappointed that in 2018 there wasn’t much variety to the kills that u did. The whole point of both games is that there are consequences to killing a god. Kratos killing Heimdall is essentially what cause’s Ragnarok also after Heimdalls death if u read Kratos’s journal he speaks on how he essentially enjoyed killing Heimdall showing that he was starting to slip back into his old ways so many people misunderstand that
What I got from the Norns is that no prophecy is ever written down, and Kratos’s warning about self fulfilling prophecies ties back into his and Atreus’s deal, and also into Faye destroying the mural. They were able to break free from predictability by not being driven by prophecy.
Cory: You’re not gonna guess where Freya’s arc is going
I guess it would either be “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” or she would almost become what she hates by attempting to kill Kratos and leave Atreus without a father… she does both, well done Cory 👏 u almost convinced me otherwise
It was pretty obvious she's gonna forgive Kratos for the sake of uniting the realms against Odin
I think that the bit about avoiding prophecy leading to it is different from Kratos' case because in those stories, the person seeking to change their prophecy, actively falls into their own nature, and thus the prophecy comes to pass. In Freya's case, her seeking to protect baldur, lead to Baldur's death. Kratos' actively chooses to change from the person he was, and in doing so, he breaks from prophecy
I do agree with everything else on prophecy being weird and inconsistent, although I think that scene with the norns was fucking awesome. The music, the fear I had when I faced the idea that Kratos, who I had followed for so long, could die, the way the norns spoke, the designs, everything was so compelling. I think the one Norn that predicts quotes, is also just sorta guessing what they will say, kinda like how the first Norn says "he resists the urge to grunt" and predicts that Kratos will grunt so as to show that fate has no hold on him.
Also, I'm sorry if this comment comes off as weirdly written. I haven't slept since yesterday because the World Cup starts today and there's no way I'd ever miss Qatar-Ecuador, the game of the century
Also I think the champion was supposed to be up in the air because the secret shrine showed Tyr as the one that leads the battle during Ragnorok but since Odin imprisoned him he stopped that from coming true and Kratos took his place. There's many instances in the plot showing the prophesies of the giants being changed. For example, Sutr didn't forge with his wife, Tyr didn't lead the war, Kratos didn't die, and Loki didn't join Odin. So it shows you can change what the giants saw but you gotta change your nature to do so.
Nope. Everything happened exactly the way the murals stated. Kratos was ALWAYS the person in the murals with the spear. Everyone just thought it was Tyr because they both have beards and Tyr uses a spear. But little did they know that Kratos would acquire a spear in the process. Surtr DID forge with his wife's heart, so again, the details were different, but he still forged with her. Tyr was never supposed to lead the war, it was always Kratos, and Kratos was never supposed to die, that was Odin on the ground that was dying and who's soul Loki was removing.
@@lockekappa500 isn't kratos usually depicted with his olympis red markings? In the murals I'd feel like we woulf of seen that
@@lockekappa500 You got it wrong Kratos was supposed to die, but when he spared Thor, he changed his fate. There are no strings of destiny in the Norse pantheon, only your nature, and choices. Kratos was a Destroyer/Godslayer/Father, yet during the invasion, he told Atreus to save lives, and he spared Thor. Two things that went against his own nature.
@@zillagrilla315 Well yes and No. I do agree Kratos was supposed to die, and yeah I've since watched a couple videos with the director and realize that Kratos did indeed change his fate by telling Atreus to open up himself to their suffering.
But I also still think that what I said was true in a sense. The murals ARE made in a manner in which they can be open ended and left up to interpretation. The dead body also looking like Odin because of his eye patch, the general with the spear also looking like Tyr but ultimately being Kratos with his new weapon.
So thats what I mean by "what happened in the murals is what always should have happened" because there is no true destiny. That the giant's murals are merely an interpretation, left open ended. They simply didnt turn out the way Kratos and Atreus interpreted them, but they DID turn out in some capacity how they were drawn.
I agree with almost everything you said. My big issues with the story is
1. As you said, it feels like it needed to be a trilogy.
2. Atreus needed more time in Asgard, his interaction with the gods and the gods relationships with each other had to be explored further.
3. The ending was rushed and felt half assed. Imo Raganrök should have taken place in the third game.
This video really goes deep and it’s the perfect representation of what I felt playing both games. I think god of war ragnarok is still a great game and it officially made my top 5 list but I don’t think it’s anywhere near god of war 2018 at all, I think 2018s initial release and connection between new and old players was executed so well it can never be repeated to the extend it was, 2018 is a gem and great on all aspects. Ragnarok continues a great sequel but it’s lacking in many aspects that the first game did but also gave us what we all wanted if that makes sense. I love thors character the best in this series because you can see that he’s old and broken like kratos and even though he’s done many bad deeds for the sake of Odin he’s also trying to tap in what’s right for his family so you can feel a sense of sympathy for him.
I've never really seen someone confused about a game like this I've heard of people having trouble explaining why something's good or bad but never they don't know what they feel very interesting video james I understand how this was hard to make:)
This is a perfect explanation of the pacing. Man im so glad i found your page. If ur ever in atlanta let me kno i will buy u a pair of jordans bro.
I felt conflicted by the time the main story had finished, moments would happen where I hoped they would’ve waited to include them in a third instalment (I was a aware this would be the last game in the Norse setting), like how I feel the Tyr plot twist should’ve been one of the last moments of the story to set up Odin as the genuine antagonist of the third game, reinforcing the recurring theme of characters Odin being the enemy throughout only to have him to show his true colours by the end of the second game, same with Surtur, his appearance felt so rushed for a seemingly crucial character. I wouldn’t say I’m disappointed in the game as a whole, I’m actually enjoying the side quests a lot more that 2018s, however I did feel a little underwhelmed with the third act, considering it was supposed to be Ragnarok and it took less than 2 hours off the back of a 20 hour playthrough, however I was really happy with the ending, hoping there will be a third instalment with Kratos ascending to godhood.
Yeah, but it's a lot more realistic. Everything that happens needs to happen, when it needs to happen. There isn't much point in having lots of one thing if it's unnecessary. We don't need lots of surtr, we got enough, we got exactly what we needed for the story to make sense. Surtr didn't want what happened, but he did it because there's nothing else to do, which is the reason Everything that happened happened. Its a lot more realistic when everything unfolds quickly, suddenly! I know what I'm saying is confusing, but trust me, it's meant to make sense.
Because the game is shot with one camera through the whole thing, we can't see what odin is up to while playing as kratos. If it was a movie we would be constantly switching between what Odin was up to, what atreus was doing, what was going on with Angrboda, etc.
Anyway, my point is that we don't need any more of odin. The scene where we found out that he was tyr all a long was shocking, but it that didn't give us a new view on odin, we still thought that he was an evil liar. Before and after. The reason we had such a touching moment with brok when we got the spear, was to make books death scene more emotional. And both kratos and you as a player knew that you'd had enough. Odin had to die.
We already knew Odin was a terrible person, the only reason the scene with tyr turning into him existed is to give you a shock, make you realise that everything you've done as preparations has become pointless, and to kill off brok and make you angry. It wasn't to give you any more hate for odin, because we already hated him.
What I've said is confusing, I think, but again, all I'm trying to get across is that everything happening quite quickly is VERY realistic, especially when we consider who the characters are, and what their goal is
kratos was confirmed to be the champion of the jotnar by him receiving the draupnir spear because the champion was always shown with a spear
The champion is Atreus, it was the character that Atreus thought was tyr who turned out to be kratos, the champion and the god of war leading the army to Ragnarok have different appearances
WOW. One heck of a great timing for dropping this video. I literally just finished watching your epic essay video on 2018 God of War mere minutes ago 😆
It was like, destiny! Some kind of prophecy perhaps. I love it lol
I think the key difference between 2018 and Ragnarok was that 2018 has one single simple main objective that Kratos and Atreus share throughout the whole game: 'Get to the highest peak in all the realms/Jotunheim'. That's it. And sometimes they go off on tangents, or get attacked and have to defend themselves, or have to double-back, or get an item so they can progress, but that's the constant goal they're moving towards, which unites the various chapters into one coherent story. And it doesn't matter how long it takes, or if they do side quests, because there isn't any real time limit on getting there.
Whereas Ragnarok is completely different because there seems to be an urgency pulling everything along, which contradicts their willingness to do side quests, and Atreus doesn't have a main constant objective at all. First he just wants answers as to who he's supposed to be and what his mother wanted, then he wants to find Tyr/Jormungandr/Freya none of which helps him, then he wants to prevent Ragnarok, then he maybe wants to cause Ragnarok because he might be the 'champion', then he wants to go to Asgard, maybe to spy on Odin, but then he decides he's not there to be a spy, then they want to kill Odin, and by the end he wants to go find the giants. Now, this vague mind-changing makes sense for the character, because he's a teenager trying to work himself out, but that's not useful for giving the player a goal to work towards in-game.
Meanwhile Kratos' main constant objective is basically 'Protect and follow the boy, don't start a war, be better', which again makes sense for the character, but it's so vague and passive that it means the player is just being dragged around by the narrative rather than deliberately moving towards the climax.
I feel like they needed to decide at the beginning of the game what exactly the main objective was, rather than gradually discovering it and arguing about it along the way, so there was a united front moving forward, i.e.: 'Bring about Ragnarok to destroy the threat of Asgard', except then a third of the way in, Atreus just disappears (presumably taken to Asgard) and Kratos (and the player) try to work out where he is and how to save him. It's not until later that we play as Atreus and get to see what happened to him and where he actually went. Jumping back and forth between their POVs threw the overall pacing off and made it too jarringly episodic, rather than one continuous story.
The other factor that shaped the way the game structure flowed was that 2018 basically had Midgard, or more specifically the Lake of Nine and the Mountain paths, as the open-world 'home base', that the characters spent the most time exploring. The act of traveling to the other realms had specific purposes, typically story-driven, but Midgard was the home territory you always came back to. But in Ragnarok, that familiar safe zone you come back to between missions was basically just Sindri's House and that was it, which shifted the way the narrative stopped and started between chapters.
Very well put comment. 2018 was truly something special that set up for amazing sequels and I don't think Ragnarok was that in terms of narrative. Not only is the feel of the game different, but based on the things Cory has said in interviews and the things set up by 2018, Ragnarok is not the original vision Cory had back when he directed 2018.
loved the game, for me it was on par with 2018. i had a blast. good that people have different opinions and loved your video mate.
GoW 2018’s ending was definitely better imo, when I finished it I felt super satisfied, and the game strong flows better too, Ragnarok’s third act felt super rushed
One of the best things is that this game and the previous one are so great, we can nitpick and critique them on such a high level. There is so much depth and story that when parts become a shallow muddy puddle, we can lament those parts because of the enormous crystal blue sea they're next to.
For me, and it's not exactly a new take, the whole prophecy thing exists to state "this is what will happen unless you change, change for the right reasons, and in time to make a difference". Changing for prophecy sake or at the last second doesn't work nor does embracing prophecy for the right reasons. The end result is the same even if its for better reasons. Dying for your child and dying for your ego are the same prophecy coming true but two very different reasons for it.
Prophecy is saying "this is your fate" meaning you, the person you are now. If you don't change and the person that prophecy was written for doesn't metaphorically die, then it will still come to pass.
I feel like the biggest mistake anyone could make it to rush through the game. I’ve seen i with several playthroughs even from seasoned GOW fans that feel like you do with the pace being to fast but not b/c the story is rushing through points but you the player are. The game does not rush you or say “now we gotta go to the next point” where in actuality it literally tells you after each story mission to stop and go to side quest and adventure in the world filled with content that doesn’t feel abstract or padding but rich and intricately tied with not only the story in general but at whatever point in the story you currently are at. Whether it be Kratos learning to walk with and support his son walking his own path, or learning key history and backstory to main characters that fleshes out and endears you to them. It’s amazing how people ran into this ‘problem’ of pacing when everything to the contrary was there for you that you chose to miss. I took my time and adventures after every mission and it paid off in spades in the end.
I definitely didn't rush, I played this game the same way I played 2018 or any other new game that comes out. If it were an issue with me I'd feel this way with every game ever.
@@LazerzZ I understand I wasn’t saying that you specifically but some other walkthrough that he specifically rushed the story to get a review out as he had a review copy.
The World Serpent recognizing Atreus in GoW4 is supposed to be foreshadowing for people who know Norse Mythos, because its foreshadowing Atreus being Loki as Loki births The World Serpent. It is a hint that is executed within that game at the end with the reveal Atreus is Loki, not a setup for more in a future game.
No in ragnarok you actually see them giving birth to jormungandr
Atreus put a giant’s soul into a snake in ironwood. Later on angrboda tells him that serpent is growing enormous
You see the serpent appear in ragnarok at the end, hence why they comment that this world serpent is “different” in the end
The serpent recognizes him because atreus is his creator. It’s made very obvious
@@anselmopat4985 I also noticed that just before you fight thor in asgard he hits the snake and it disappears. So it was sent back in time a few years.
I think with the Tyr stuff it’s really interesting, because Odin is almost playing the role of the god of ‘trickery and mischief’ that Loki would usually play in Norse myths. Loki is ‘being better’ and so he is replaced by Odin.
I mean Odin was an also a prick in the original mythology he cheated, stole, killed and did so much for knowledge. Doesn’t help that a lot of context like his ties to Loki are more obscure due to lack of older texts and information not written by Christian writers through a Christian lens. Odin and Loki were similar in a lot of ways which is why they were blood brothers. Loki however aimed most of his mischief at the aesir and the enemies of the Aesir while Odin did it with anyone.
Got the platinum today. The conversation with the shield maidens after defeating Gna is great.
I think the main theme is identity and choice defines that. Kratos' desire not to go to war because he does not want to return to who he once was/his fear that he will become him. Similarly, Thor believing himself to be Odin's tool and his weapon with no intelligence, so Kratos' words to be better really hit harder then. Atreus/Loki figuring out who he really is and the rest of the cast. The importance of identity is even reinforced when making the Draupnir Spear. What makes you.. you? Your appearance or what's inside and your true nature. Choice is just the vehicle for that theme imo.
It sounds to me like you weren't expecting a grand, avengers style conclusion when that's EXACTLY what I was expecting and frankly, what a story of this scale needed. After all that was established, built up, and foreshadowed in the last game a typical high brow story wasn't going to cut it this time.
THIS!!!!!! Exactly
But what was so grand about the ending? The fight in the trenches of Asgard was fun, but then it immediately led to two disappointing boss battles with Thor/Odin, then the game was over. Jormagandr and Surtr, the coolest parts of the whole thing, were relegated to distance set-pieces. We didn't even get to see the realm's armies being rallied beforehand, instead the story NPC's just said "I know it's impossible, but don't worry I got this because PLOT" then wham it took like ten minutes
I didn't find it grand I found it anti-climactic.
@@wingsoffreedom3589 I've seen a few others say that too and I just don't understand. If it were any longer it would have felt too long and bloated, and if it were harder it would have felt frustrating and intrusive. I feel like they nailed the finale just right.
@@MrEffectfilms Some parts are too long and some parts are too short. The game’s overall length feels fine, but it definitely could’ve benefited from some pacing adjustments
What I took from the prophecy thing is that they just see possible futures and their “prophecies” come from something like Occam’s razor, they say people are extremely predictable due to their common choices and paths they take. Imo it means you can change prophecy just by doing different than your typical choices.
choices he nords tell him its his choices..thats why kratos usses that word "choose" so much
“Alright, what’s the plan? What do we do next? Where are we going? We gotta go to alfheim? Alright, let’s go to fucking alfheim. Alright, now what are we gonna do? Ah, atreus is running away, ah fuck now we’re in fucking Asgard. Now we gotta become friends with fucking odin. Now we’re looking for pieces of a mask, ah now we’re back and we’re friends again. But ah we gotta go stop Garm because he’s tearing holes in things and now we’re back again and tyrs is actually odin wha what’s going on?”🤣
the side exploration does fit into the narrative because its mostly about Kratos spending more time with Atreus because he thinks he might die due to the prophecy.
Exactly!
I think the exploration during the game is best explained with the jelly fish quest, at the end Atreus asks why his dad is helping, n mimir says exactly what Kratos is thinking: he wants to spend time with his son while he still can. With Freya it makes WAY less sense tbh until postgame as now Kratos is to become the new all father n so try’s to protect the realms to live up to Faye n also because it’s what Atreus would want if he was around.
I agree with you 200%,and you worded everything perfectly,at the end of the game I felt the same way,I liked it,it was a good game but something felt very off about the story the whole time so when I finished I was more confused about what the story was,I literally thought I missed something in the story and replayed it just to see that I didn’t miss anything,they just dropped pieces of the story and left them, and then it felt like the writers tried to hide that part of the story with the moments between Atreus and kratos which were great. It seemed like it left more questions then answers and when your ending the “story” of the Norse era it’s feels wrong and then you think why were the plot pieces brought up in the first place if they had no purpose,no explanation and then for it just to not play into the story anyway.
Everything else about this game is awesome it’s just sucks that what I played the game for was its weakest part
My main issue with the game was its third act. Everything else was phenomenal but the last bit felt rushed and would’ve benefited from having one last game. Thor’s death felt cheap as he was finally taking the steps to becoming better. I would’ve loved more interactions between him and kratos and maybe even a moment where they slip back into their old ways only to be stopped by their children. Odin’s fight felt bland. Him teleporting everywhere on top of the fact that it took place in his home felt lackluster.
Thor represents Kratos, who realized too late that he could be something more. Basically, Kratos 2018 did not go on a soul-searching journey with his child.
I was a bit disappointed by the gameplay too... I mean, i feel like completing Ironwood took twice as much time as completing Ragnarok. The last battle with Thor is good, but it does not top the first one (i believe it would have been more spectacular if you fought all around asgard to end up the fight at Odin's doorstep). Odin's fight felt a little bit underwhelming too... It would have been cooler to fight around the Nine Realms to end up in his study/basement (maybe the PS4 couldn't have run that). Storywise it was almost perfect
@@doctorgol9 my thoughts exactly. I also thought Thor’s final fight was pretty easy tbh. I get that we didn’t have our skills in the first fight but unless I’m remembering incorrectly, his moves were almost identical in both fights
20:45 Choice is important because this follows the same theme of the last game. The fear of relieving the past mistakes is the fear that Atreus will inevitably repeat his fathers mistakes because its his fate and therefore choice is the means of escaping that. There is no greater depth to any of those 2 themes
For me GOW 2018 to Ragnarok is similar to TLOU to TLOU2. The narrative went from simple, straightforward and focused to being expanded allowing for different issues with pacing to arise.
For me, the game is like a 9.5 to 2018's 9. I feel like Atreus', Kratos' and Freya's arcs are better and more substantial here than the original. I feel like the comedy is better. The emotional moments hit me harder. And the supporting cast was more involved and added more to the story.
This comment isn't very persuading, but these are just my feelings on it. I feel like it was an improvement over 2018 in almost every way and GOW 2018 was my easy GOTY that year as well.
The core theme of the game is that you control your own destiny your own fate,your choices wil decide how your life plays out.
At least for the prophecy part (if I remember correctly) Mimir says how prophecy’s are usually very weird and illusive and in the ironwood big they say how prophecy’s can be inaccurate (at least with the smaller things) so the way I took it was that giants future vision stuff only shows the most likely future for how the characters are when the vision is had (idk about kratos’ wife maybe there are multiple visions and she chose the best one for everyone and that’s why she was arguing with the giants on the mural in the first game?)
I did have more stuff to say about the other stuff you said in your video as well but I have a bad memory so I forgot most of what you said for the other stuff and don’t want to rewatch the video
Wow a lot of really good points. I felt very similar after I finished the game. 2018’s story was so tight and focused that this story felt a little all over the place. And the combat is mostly the same so it kind of ends up feeling like 2018 with a messier story
i have to disagree with you on the exploration, i loved it and found myself constantly going out of my way and going off the story path to explore and would find really fun stuff to do like the drauger holes or find relics or find secret bosses with the mysterious relic. after i got the relic i wend back and explored more of the realms because i tried to use the relic in combat to see what it would do and i woke up a troll completely by accident and had remembered in vanihime while i was roaming around that there were two trolls on a beach across from a berserker grave and when back and god that was exciting. i was also going back to do some side quest after getting the spear and wound up on dragon beach in svfartl and so a stone dragon and my first thought was hmm i wonder if the amulet would work on that two and so i tried it only to find out that there was a secret dragon boss on dragons beach which was so cool. the exploration was definitely way better in this game than it was in 2018. the only thing i will say is that the valks were way more fun then the berserkers lol i actually didn't like the berserkers because a lot of them feel super cheap and have the "its hard for the sake of being hard" feeling where as the valk had the opposite once you learned them they were easy with the berserkers you can learn them but it doesn't matter because they have stupid hard to avoid moves that will one shot you and there is nothing you can do about it except clinch your cheeks and prepare to die tbf i played the game from the start of my first pt on GMGOW so i did ask for it.
You have summed up how I feel about this game perfectly! Thank you for making this video, because, if I have to be honest, I wasn’t sure how to feel about this game.
I fucking loved the bar fight section!! I was laughing my ass off the whole time and just had such an amazing, fun time. If I could replay that over and over, I would.
When they make ng+ I hope
I would say that honestly to me the bar fight and Ironwood where kinda like little mental breaks for you, allowing you to process what had happened in the story.
If you do a manual save you can replay any part over and over
@@williamking1081 I really enjoyed both, they are very necessary shifts in mood for both the characters and the player. I dont think your average gamer understands how these little breaks are necessary. Constantly going 100mph will dull the experience.
i have been researching for similiar takes, defiinitely spot on for me. great video, man.
I have a theory about the confusing nature of the prophecies. I read up on the primary sources of Norse mythology a little online, and I think the game is trying to set up two different prophecies.
Kratos is filling the role of “Forbauti”(roughly translates to Cruel Strike) - Loki’s Father, and husband of Laufey. This actually fits into the original mythology pretty smoothly, as Forbauti is rarely mentioned, and Loki is referred to as “Loki Laufeysson”, instead of the expected: “Loki Forbausson” - taking after the father. (Spoilers‼️) in the original mythology, Loki is a Jotunn, and his good standing with the gods ends with the killing of baldur, (there was a slight timeline adjustment for the games, Loki enters the Aesir story here, already in bad standing with the gods.), and he fathers three children: Jormungander, Fenrir, and Hel with the Giant, Angrboda. Come ragnarok, Loki and Heimdall both die fighting each other - which should have been emphasized more in the game.
When Mimir, Freya, the Aesir, the Fates, etc., talk about prophecy they are referring to the same Norse Mythology that I just discussed. Obviously some changes and omissions have been made for the game, but it works. Personally I think works quite well. When Loki is in Asgard he is fulfilling the Aesir prophecies - which are based on prediction - and ultimately fulfilling the events of Norse mythology. This works thematically as well, since Thor, Odin, Baldur, etc., all repeatedly make the same bad decisions that cause them to fulfill their own prophecies.
The other half of this story, is the Jotunn prophecies. Those of Faye and Angrboda. These prophecies, I believe, are made with a more concrete magic - Giant Stuff - that allows them to see the future (maybe not perfectly, but at least better than the Aesir, or maybe not, who knows). In the OG myths, Loki enters into Asgard as a Jotunn. What this game is implying, is that the Jotunn have their own prophecies, separate from that of the Aesir, which are made to circumvent / subvert the Aesir prophecies. Atreus is playing the part of the Aesir Loki while fulfilling his role as the Jotunn Loki. They play off of each other quite a bit, but it’s two distinct prophecies which were made by two different peoples with different magic.
This is all laid out across the game, but I don’t think the game really spent enough time setting up the Aesir half of the coin, and kind of got lost in the sauce. I believe this is where most people’s confusion is coming from, and why the message of “choice” can seem kind of blurry sometimes. My own interpretation of it is this:
People like Thor and Odin who are stuck in their own ways and can’t see past themselves are going to write “prophecies” onto others, predicting that they will get stuck in their ways and make the same choices consistently. Those who truly know a person and believe in them will write prophecies that see that person becoming the best version of themself. While one of these prophecies is a little more hopeful, both are an attempt to influence somebody else’s life - for better or worse. While it is easy to fall into these prophecies: either by giving into the worst aspects of one’s self, and fulfilling Thor’s request to “bring out the God of War”, or Atreus eager to become the man his mother and his people want him to be. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to decide what it is from their life. Prophecy can be a guide, by giving examples to strive for and steer clear from, but what matters is what choices we make in light of these prophecies. “Knowing a prophecy” is to be aware of the stories other people will tell as a result of one’s actions. Kratos made the right choices throughout this game, and became a better person who does the right thing in spite of those who expected him to give into his past, and as a result he is presented with a better future as a god who is loved, as opposed to Odin who people “worship” out of fear.
Goddamn it’s fun to rip things apart with those blades though.
I know I’m a bit late to this but i just finished the game and i want to touch on something you said about Kratos’s dreams of Faye. When he says they are more than just memory I think what’s happening is that they are just memories but after he stepped into the light of Alfheim in 2018s game Faye’s soul affected his mind ever so slightly and she is triggering these memories when his mind is at it’s weakest state, asleep, to help remind Kratos of who he wants to be. He says they are more than memories because he knows they are incredibly specific memories. Not just random flashbacks
That’d be great, if the game explored that in any way 😅
Ypu actually bring up some great points I tried to ignore. Freya should’ve slowly been opening up with you throughout the game. Only be concerned for your safety towards the end and after the end. Kratos sharing his stories make sense since he is transitioning to become a leader again.
I finished the game 8 hours ago. And now I wake up to this
How? It has over 20 hours of story. Lmao
@@ItalianIrishguy because it has over 30 hours of side content.
i'd been playing ever since the day it released and finished 8 hours before he uploaded this video
I think you really nailed it! I had similar feelings. Actually, I quite enjoyed the main plot, but then there was too much of being a collector in side quests. I would prefer to remove 20 hours of generic side quests and opening chests but add +10 hours of the main plot. I also felt like the main plot and everything else are like two different games. The main plot was really fast and involving and everything else was very slow, methodic, and repetitive.
It's sad that your comment is the only one with a heart (that i could find)
The violence is fun and enjoyable for kratos too, he details that when he kills Heimdall. The point is that that violence is still indicative of a return to form for him, and also he isn't on this path to honor a loved one he's on this path for war
I don't know if this is intended or anything of the sorts but I think the reason the combat feels so epic and glorified in relation to the story is because it represents Kratos' addiction to rage. It feels really good to kill and I don't think they're intending to go the direction of 'Oh the humanity' when Kratos does these violent actions but instead they show how it affects Kratos and how if he lets his anger gets control of him it will ultimately just lead him to his own demise. But he doesn't do it to stop his demise, he does it because if he does die, so will the people he cares about. His anger is an addiction which can solve a problem in the short term (heimdall) but will only hurt him and the people he cares about.
It’s also because it’s a damn god of war game
People want the epic, they had to compromise. If they made the gameplay more tamed down the game simply would get destroyed lol
@@anselmopat4985 things can be multifaceted, one can support the other without clashing
I definitely think think that the champion of the jotnar thing will be further explored in an Atreus centred story but I’m not sure the horn in GOW 4 will be addressed in the games and will be relegated to a tweet from Cory barlog
Interesting video! I thought Freya stopped trying to kill Kratos because she saw that Atreus would suffer without his father, rather than suddenly liking Kratos again. Then she redirects her vengeance to bringing Odin to justice (vengeance vs justice seems to be another big theme of this game) and that's why she allies with Kratos. Then eventual friendship. I do think some of Freya's character development is odd towards the end, but when we first see her second-guess the choice to kill Kratos for the good of Atreus... I liked it.
Her decision has a nice parallel with Atreus' hard-learned lesson about consequences at the beginning of the game, when in his grief he transforms into and kills a bear, leaving its cubs parentless.
It's also kind of awful but on theme that Kratos and Freya kill Nidhogg, leaving her wyrm children parentless... yet interesting that Kratos chooses to help the lindwyrms, rather than let 'nature take its course' as he did with the bear cubs before.
The whole thing about the exploration not fitting into the story early game isn't really true. In the Alfhiem side mission where you free the giant jelly fish, it is established that Kratos is doing these things with Atreus because he wants to spend the limited he has with his son doing things he knows Atreus enjoys, such as helping people (which he also does out of good will), and exploring.
That makes sense when Kratos is WITH Atreus. Doesn't make sense when Kratos is exploring with someone else.
@@troublesomebirdsong Well he said that he found exploring to be more enjoyable with Freya so I was explaining my perspective.
I think a big issue with this game is the distribution of story beats. It's not spread out evenly enough so the pacing gives you whiplash. If for example the 3-hour section where you meet angrboda was instead split up into 3 1-hour sections over the course of the story up until that point, the pacing wouldn't be as fucky.
Subbed. I Like how you think. However, i think this conclusion is sublime. We have played angry Kratos and saw how badly he didnt want to be that way. He finally achieved what he wanted.
My interpretation of the prophecy stuff is that they told the stories that they needed to tell. Groa lied to Odin about Ragnarok, but that doesn't mean the prophecy left over for the giants isn't also a lie meant to steer them. The Norns directly lied to Kratos, telling him that Heimdall plans to kill Atreus, but that wasn't true. Heimdall was not going to disobey Odin. They did that so that Kratos will be prepared for the fight against him.
??! No the norns didn’t lie
Heimdall literally did plan to kill atreus the second he arrived there because he felt his intention to betray Odin
This was a really great look into the game! I largely agree with you that the game felt kinda scattered in its focus. I felt like a lot of the story was about running around and completing tasks that ultimately did not pay off to the culmination of the story, nor did they feel like natural "steps" towards that. Personally interpreted the main themes of the game as something else, though the idea of choice was certainly prevalent. I read the game as being more about the characters being defined either by their past and future, and how some of them managed to break free of those restrictions. I also talked about the possible meaning of the Rift in my own video, as I found that being one of the most fascinating aspects of the game.
The story felt a bit weird indeed but there is a new fun and it's the gameplay. I just wished that the end (story-wise) was a bit longer. And I completely agree with your statements but I think people expected too much and let's be honest getting a sequel this good is impossible nowadays.
I’m sure someone has said this already, but I’ll throw my two cents in the mix. When Kratos said he was “slipping back into his old ways” I didn’t take that to mean with violence necessarily, I think it meant more that he’s slipping back into his mindset of doing whatever it takes to achieve his goal (in this case protecting Atreus), e.g. by brutally murdering Nidhogg and Heimdall. He’d become so focused on doing everything and anything to protect Atreus that he was pushing Atreus away again, like he’d used to, and was losing that trust in each other they’d slowly built up throughout the first game. That’s what I think he meant about falling into his old ways.
That’s exactly what I thought when I was playing through the game as well man glad to see I wasn’t the only one that thought that
This game is just as good as the first one to me. Loved every minute of it. So I have to disagree. My biggest gripe is with what you said about Freya’s arc. She doesn’t immediately change her mind because she sees Kratos be good to his son, she stops because even tho she was about to murder him, he still stopped Atreus from killing her as a bear. He saved her life from Atreus even tho she was a threat, because once she wasn’t a threat. Once she was a friend.
I think that the main prophecy(the destroyed mural) where Kratos is shown dying is not actually showing Kratos' death but instead Odin's. If you compare the framing of Odin's death at the end of the game, it looks incredibly similar to the mural. In other words, the final prophecy was never changed. I don't know if this is the case, but I wanted to bring it up.
Actually, I think the mural does show Kratos' death but IF they continued on the path they were on. Loki being an agent of disruption and change in the myths also act as such here. His influence along with his father's willingness to change did change the prophecy, so instead of Kratos dying by Thor's hand, Odin fills that place due to his own inability to change and do better.
Excellent point, I’ve seen this mentioned elsewhere. Indeed the framing of Odin’s death is identical to the prophecy mural. But this brings another question: does it mean that we cannot, after all, escape from prophecy?
Loved to listen through because I disagreed with a lot of the points and that made me really reflect on the complexity of the story told. There were a lot of things that I've percieved differently while playing through and honestly there's so many layers to the characters/story/world to talk about. The other thing is that the pacing is different from GoW 2018 and I think it's just personal prefference for that. 2018 was indeed slower paced and felt more peaceful, but at the same time you have to take into consideration the circumstances in the world of the game which kinda make sense. Either way, great video. :)
If you didn’t play side missions all together then you won’t think it go together
You've really encapsulated my feelings. This game feels like it's moving at lightspeed but at the same time, languorously limping along...I think what made GOW 2018 so great is because the writing was focused and restrained. This particular game feels like it's trying to expand too quickly and feels awkward as result. It is by no means a bad game, just not on the same calibre as its predecessor.
By the way, I get the thing of Atreus wanting to have an adventure of his own but if only we had a choice between companions in the end game (final adventures before he goes off to look for giants?). After all, it began with father and boy, kind of a cop out to end with father and Freya. Feels like they take too many choices away from us.
Exactly, like now I wanna redo the game before the Ragnarok scene to do all the side quest stuff with Atreus
I am very surprised to learn of how much I am in agreement with your analysis of this game's execution. I finished my first playthrough a few days ago (100%, plat achievement), so I am familiar with all aspects you covered here. It felt like you articulated my feelings and observations of this game very well. I loved God of War, 2018 the best among them, and I feel that Ragnarok landed just slightly below the level that was set by it. I suspect it is due to Ragnarok being released as one game instead of two, though it's difficult to say if being a trilogy would make it better or worse. The "rushed" pacing became apparent to me by the early stages of Freya's arc. Her tone in the non-cutscene dialogue gave away too much about the outcome of their relationship, and it felt far too calm for someone who supposedly is feeling so much anger and hated towards Kratos at the moment. I also agree with your opinion on side quests. Granting us the ability to complete them while Ragnarok is coming seems to directly contradict the sense of urgency that the event is supposed to carry. I agree that it would be better and would make more sense if the side quests are reserved for the very end. In fact, one of it spoiled the outcome for me because at some point when I was going around Svartalheim with Freya as companion, she said something that eludes to Kratos having to settle with not having Atreus around by saying how Atreus would have been proud of him (side quest was about helping someone). All that said, it is still one of the best games I've played (loved the combat so much that I immediately started my second playthrough in harder difficulty level).
I just finished Ragnarok, and I felt this video put into words the feelings I had as the game concluded. A+ commentary. What I would like to see explored is the weird feeling of sadness I have in the post game content where I go to places I went in the main story remembering “oh yeah, here’s where Atreus and Kratos had this conversation” and, “oh yeah, this is what Brok said the last time I was here.” Obviously these deaths and partings are not real, but there is a profound feeling I still get from the game, which if anyone besides me feels this way, I think is an amazing achievement. Also, Mimir solving Broks riddle made me incredibly depressed, lol.
Also I think the concept of prophecy is that you can't escape it by trying to avoid prophecy, you can only escape it by trying to change yourself.
If the prophecy is that you will be killed by your son then doing the absolutely predictable thing like sending your infant away down a river or something won't avert your fate.
But if you contemplated why your son might kill you and you recognized your own flaws and actually overcame them (which a vast, VAST majority of the time does NOT happen with real people, that's why they are flaws and not mini character arcs to overcome) then it's possible you could change your fate. The fact that humans are so reluctant to change and prove this time and time again is why prophecy is so "accurate" but not infallible
I've been trying to put my finger on why I liked 2018 better than Ragnarok. While I was playing I had a ton of fun and loved the story but I wasn't as emotionally invested in it. I think James was on point when he said this was the "Endgame of video games". The first game only had Kratos and Atreus, and occasionally Freya or one of the dwarves which made the game feel really focused and personal, but because this game had such a drastic increase in its character cast I genuinely think it takes a lot from that story. There are a lot of characters that either serve no real purpose or are severely under utilized ie: Hildesvinni was a totally unnecessary character that added nothing to the story imo and Sif, Thrud, and Thor's story was genuinely super interesting and it is a total shame that they didn't go further with it. Generally it feels like this game has been bloated with different characters for the sake of not having every realm be empty when one of the reasons why 2018 felt so personal was because there was no one else, sure Freya and Brock and Sindri were there, but ultimately Kratos and Atreus only had each other and it was a story about them coming to terms with that.
disagree
I agree with the prophecy part.. During the encounter with the witches, it played out as though the future is set in stone, whatever Kratos thought he _could_ or he _would_ do won't change a thing. That gives a sense of dread & despair of the inevitable. Set the mood perfectly. But then, they switched 180 and I remember thinking "Sooo.. does prophecy matter then?". It cheapened the previous encounter with the witches, and made it felt like the mindblowing revelation of GOW 2018 ending didn't matter.
If God of War: Ragnarok is Infinity War, then God of War (2018) is Logan.
Both are really great, but 2018 is better in terms of story and character work.
However, Ragnarok is still spectacular.
Together, both create a fantastic duology of games.
Hey LazerzZ,
I really enjoyed this video and your thoughts on the game. I have the same feelings towards GOW 1-3 and 2018. I finished Rangarok a few hours ago, and am feeling a lot of the same things you are. I think you articulated those disappointments well in an "initial reactions" video. I like to do the same thing with movies, as my feelings on them change over time. I wonder how my feelings towards this game will age too.
The only point of disagreement I had was at the "prophecy doesn't make sense" section. You actually explained the answer at 32:40. The message is that anyone can change their story, they just have to make the choice. If they remain to their own devices, then fate is predictable. But it's not as simple as "i just need to act like someone I'm not in order to escape fate", it is more about learning and growing in the ways that are not easy for our nature. Kratos had to learn to be a father, and his choice in the battle was the choice to be a better father for his son, growing from his old ways because he has learned what it costs to go down the path they were on. Kratos wants better for his son, and he must learn what all parents must - he must let go and let his son become his own person, and to not make the same mistakes Kratos did. He is choosing to be a better person, a better father, and that is all the difference it takes for fate to change. The message is growth and love, and maybe that's enough to change fate.
I don't know if I am making sense, typing this at 4:00 AM after thanksgiving day. I would be interested in talking about this with you if you ever wanted to bounce ideas of someone. This was my first time seeing your channel, but I'm subbed and can't wait to see what you have in front of you. I'm gonna go back and watch that LOU2 video you mentioned, as I loved what you said about it in this video. That game got far too much hate. It wasn't perfect, but hated for the wrong reasons.
This game just felt so off, a mish-mashed Frankenstein of various concepts and meaningless story beats, and I agree with a lot of what you said. The single biggest issue I had with it was Ragnarök itself, which felt like The Long Night from GoT - an event that was hyped for years, but ultimately is over in under an hour and feels extremely underwhelming. And when you consider you’re riding a yak for a longer period than you’re fighting in fucking Ragnarök... make it make sense please.
Brilliant vid James, I agree with the points you made tbh. It’s nice to have a TH-camr who puts as much effort into their vids as much as you do, keep making that dosh
The pacing is the games largest issue. The GoW Norse Saga was supposed to be a trilogy, but the Barlog eventually decided to give us two games. Whether that decision occured before or after the writing for the saga was completed is likely never going to be revealed to us, but it certainly feels as though they decided to axe the third game either before Ragnarok's development started, between 2018 and itself, or during the development of Ragnarok.
I agree with this. It was a great game, I wouldn’t say I’m disappointed but it just felt “bloated but rushed”. This was actually well articulated. Great job
I'm currently halfway through the game & loving it. Your retrospective on GoW 2018 was great so I'm definitely coming back to this one.
@SHUBH GUPTA source? It was revealed to you in a dream by Zeus?
@SHUBH GUPTA Haha yes I'm loving it & I do think we'll get the next sometime then.
@SHUBH GUPTA my bad dawg I thought you were trying to pose as an insider 😭
I love how most comments in this video are people shitting on your takes. Fitting.
I feel like this game definitely needs to have a DLC that gives a finality to Sindri's situation.
As for Freya and Kratos being friends. makes sense given that she saved atreus from dying. Kratos was mistrusting once he found out she was a god but he definitely respected and treated her as a friend the moment she saved Atreus' life.
Personally this game surpassed 2018 for me. I was more invested in the story than 2018 and the enemy and combat were varied and better.
James you have such a way of putting my whirling thoughts into words couldn't agree more with what you raised.
I LOVE this series, ragnarok is easily one of the best experiences I’ve ever had. I cried more times throughout than I did with last of us or red dead. It hit every cylinder for me. My game of the year and easily one of the best I’ve ever played.
Another Sony banger!
This game was emotionally charged and had so many satisfying moments with character growth. When you look at GOW 2005 up to GOW 2018 up to Ragnarok, I’m just amazed at the evolution of the series. And the evolution of Kratos as a character 😭
I platinum the game this morning. It was worth the wait, can't wait to see where it goes next. There's a mural in jotunheim, and a poem of kvasir that hint. Actually the poems nod to Hzd and a couple games. Pretty cool little nuggets.
26:42 I feel that Freya isn’t saying it like she’s saying “No! my friend is dead!” but more like “No! How am I supposed to get rid of my curse now?!”
i think the only issue i had was there's times like i wanted atreus and kratos to say i love you to eachother, to be a little more chatty than through symbolic actions and fighting etc. yet that might be because i like soppy stories lmao
I'd say the story highs of this game definitely trumps 2018, but has much lower lows. Like oh my god, Broks funeral is probably the best directed video game funeral of all time.