I consider your recent editing to be top notch! Between shooting targets, video editing, weight sorting ammo and now the upcoming rim thickness sorting, you’re gong to be one busy guy. I do appreciate your dedication of putting out interesting content. 👍
I have watched a lot of guys trying to prove that makes a difference however you are the first one that makes it perfectly clear that weight separation makes a difference and I would bet that measuring rim thickness will also make a difference..Thankyou for your efforts.
Thanks glad you enjoy them I plan to keep them coming and I think I may try to get more than 1 video per week. I’m going to try it and see how it goes. But I don’t want to over do it and at the same time I need to have time with my family. But thanks you so much for sharing this with me I appreciate you!
I like the new video editing format. Please keep up with it, even though its a lot of work, I think that when people watch it, get a feel for "real-time" data, shot by shot instead of just the summary statistics. Just my opinion, but the significant "sorting" was already done by the manufacturer (such as Lapua, SK and Eley) by lots, batches and brands (SK Standard +, Rifle Match, Long Range Match, etc...) and verification through shooting in their test setup. The "additional" sorting (by weight and by rim thickness) may or may not yield any additional benefit but would really be determined by statistically significance through multiple/repeatable experimentation and large sample sizes (minimum of 30 for statistical relevance). Factor in the time to perform the sorting by measurement and the large amounts of ammo you would have to test, and then repeat through different rifle setups (to negate any bias through any one rifle setup), most people (and Tubers) end up with the same conclusion...just find the lot that works best for your rifle and buy as much of the lot you can. Lather, rise, repeat when the lot runs low/dry. I think it was very telling when you repeated the "best group" sorted weight (51.4gr) and saw nearly double the group size. My takeaway from this is: you need larger size shot group (20-30) to establish a relevant group size and repeat it several times to establish a group size/spread. I would like to see you evaluate all the shooting you did in 2024 for each rifle and ammo type tested (at various distances) and provide your thoughts for each rifle you favor the ammo for the application or shooting objective. For example: The CZ457 with SK Rifle Match @ 50 yds for precision shooting because it consistently yielded the smallest group size, but would use SK Long Range Match (maybe even include the lot # if you have that info) for 100yds for shooting steel (or 6" targets) as it was more accurate (tended to center around POA) and for 200 yds either same ammo or maybe it was a different brand like Lapua Long Range. For colder weather, Lapua Polar Biathlon performed well over Eley, or something like that. I love watching your channel as you are willing to shoot different rifles and test through many different brands of ammo (from cheap to uber elite) that you should be able to make some thoughts on which ammo for which shooting scenario as a 2024 summary of what you did. As an engineer, I am always analyzing data, so please take the above comments as feedback and not negative towards what you have done and been doing. I think your format is fantastic and is one that I look forward to watching each time you post a new video. Cheers!
Merry Christmas to you and your family! Thanks for the kind words! You won’t have to wait long ha ha tomorrow morning is coming up fast. See you again tomorrow
Wow, thank you! I really appreciate that and thanks for sharing this with me. I hope you subscribe and follow my journey here on TH-cam. Hope you had a very merry Christmas and have a great new year! Cheers 🍻
@ oh I did absolutely subscribe and will follow you closely! I am actually in France and love shooting 22Lr. I have a 457 Varmint with a MDT XRS chassis, a Arken EP5, I shoot SK pistol match and rifle match, amazing accuracy 👍
Great video. I am not a statistician, but I don’t see a definitely determinable correlation here. I guess I would reshoot the ammo used in your best group again on another day to see if it is repeatable. Many thanks for the time and effort you put into your work here!
I'm with you there, I'm going to test it again and see if that best group is repeatable. I also believe this is not a good way to sort the ammo. There are way to many variables that can’t be sorted. I think it was a good try but definitely not worth the effort and time.
Hey great effort on all the videos, really enjoying them. Good seeing all the different rifles and ammo. Finally got my handset on a brick of sk standard plus so keen to try it out. So hot and humid in North Queensland at the moment not going a lot but will be into it when the weather gets better. Keep up the good work 👌
There is always some amount of +/- for everything manufactured. Weight of powder charge, weight of brass, and weight of bullet all have a tolerance so sorting them by weigh while not perfect may show a sweet spot so long as 1 variable happens to be the culprit. If it is powder charge and the bullet weight and brass weight are identical then I believe the best results are possible. However, if within this group there are large inconsistencies in bullet weight too then the test will not readily produce any improvements outside of chance.
Interesting. I weighed the weight of the empty cases and I was surprised because the weight varies. Yes, sorting and weighing the balls is good. Measuring the rims I don't know because Eley has thin rims. Looking forward to seeing your tests.
Very interesting. You always have good videos, just keep doing your thing. I don't always shoot the same procedures at home and consider that part of the fun. Looking forward to watching more from you. Thanks
I think it's more for the fun of it but also some serious shooters might find the benefits worth the effort. Not sure I’ll be doing it again though because the results weren’t night and day difference between sorted and not sorted
I definitely like that way you laid this video out. Weight sorting is a rabbit hole. Rim thickness play a little part. But definitely not worth the hours spent on sorting rim and or weight. Did little over 10,000. Rds this summer and started shooting better once I stoped.
Thanks for this test. As others point out, weight sorting 22 rimfire ammunition can’t tell us what component(s) is/are the variable(s), but your results have about convinced me to try sorting myself: something to do when I don’t feel like going to the range on a cold day. 😉 And as always, your test methods should serve as examples for other testers who are trying to convince us that their efforts demonstrate anything that we should pay any attention to: enough groups consisting of a significant number of shots fired with precise points of aim at meaningful distances. I also appreciate your using two chronographs at the same time. I really like the convenience of my Garmin unit, and it’s good to see that its readings are always within a few feet per second of the other’s.
I do not shoot competitively, but I have sorted 22lr ammo for years and still do today and yes it makes a difference take a brick " 500 ", and you'll see a weight swing of .1-.8 gr low to high but you will end up with three good groups about 90% of all rounds within .3 gr of each other, I use the others 10% for sighting/warmup rounds. I shoot mainly Norma Tac22 that I buy in bulk or on sale for $4 per 50 or cheaper, I have shot the high end the $20 per box stuff, I don't shoot for trophies, just for fun and my gun likes Norma really well !! and I shoot every week, weather permitting hundreds of rounds, cheap accurate fun !! Thanks for sharing, keep up the great work.
Great video and format. It is admirable your attention to detail. I have CZ 457 LRP too and have sorted by weight and by rim thickness...(I don't have a life apparently) and I think rim thickness matters more! It is pretty hard to get ammo where I am, have not seen any of the best ammo from any makers other than Fiocchi in the area I live in NZ so it is interesting to see what I am missing out on. Thanks for a great series of videos Ryan...keep 'em coming! Happy New Year too!
I have never done the weighing and measuring. But it does show promise. I would go nuts measuring/weighing 250 rounds. 100 yards is a great place to test them. Less environmentally to affect it. Damn near impossible to duplicate again at say, 200y. Unless you had a few bricks of the same lot.
Enjoy your vids, the rabbit hole of 22lr accuracy is a head scratcher, I too am shooting a cz457 mtr tricked out with tuner, trigger, F class bipod, firing pin, chasis, and a gen iii vortex rzr scope. the ammo sk lrm has been sorted by rim thickness (jjones sliding scale) . I was shocked to see the different poi and corresponding velocity not always correlate high and low hits. I do clean the chamber after 200+ rounds to eliminate the carbon ring After sitting for about 20 minutes my first two shots seem to ;be the widest as far as fps and spread. cold bore??? Looking forward to more vids thanks
I really like this format of your video. Also like the 2 chrono's, they are giving very close readings. Also like your shooting style, staying on your rifle until you are finished shooting. It does not look as if the heavier rounds have a higher velocity, nearly the opposite. As you say, maybe rim thickness will give a better indication of accuracy gain.
That's a lot to keep up with. Nice work with the camera and editing. A barrel tuner can be time consuming like weight sorting. That SK sample is pretty good right out of the box.
Watched a video about gasses building up in the barrel as it heats up causing larger groups. Makes me wonder if this has something to do with accuracy. This shooter would look thru the barrel and it would appear to be blocked until the gas cleared out. Just a thought. Thanks for great videos on rimfire, have enjoyed them all.
Wondering if after sorting by weight one could then check their balance points to see if it is the lead or the powder that was over or under. It almost looked like you increased the spread, moreso in the edge case weights, and seemed to have up to two different clusterings: ones more bullet heavy powder lighter, and other extreme with powder heavy bullet lighter. So many load variables to try and pry apart.😅
@ I’m waiting on one from Raven Eye Custom. Need to pick up a 1/4” travel dial indicator. You can use a set of calipers but I would imagine a dial indicator setup would be faster.
Keep going in your testing because I've started doing the same, however I don't have a chrono yet, and I'm not sure what it all means because we can't control primer amount/weight, powder weight, and bullet weight. But it just seems to me that it's the speed, or lack there of, which makes one a "flyer" or not. Just my thoughts. Yes Keep them videos coming and maybe experiment with sk match?????
Personally I have better results with rim thickness sorting because there's only one factor-thickness. With weight sorting you don't know if the weight variance is in the the bullet, primer, powder or case.....just a thought. I like this format.
Absolutely does not work. There are too many variables you can't control or even put into the equation 😉 As soon as the rain and snow stop, I am doing a similar video also 😊 Thanks for sharing, Ryan! 👍
Hey, try doing single shots at single targets, because the next bullet will follow into the same one. Once you make a hole the air in front of the bullet will follow the path of less resistance. cheers
I have to wonder if, by weight sorting, you're actually measuring the projectile and not powder? Maybe the weight means each projectile is a different size, affecting the interface with the rifling. 🤔 BTW I have no idea what I'm talking about!😅
I guess there are 4 parts to a 22rf. Case, powder primer and pill...possibly wax too. As you can't assess these you can't tell if you have a heavy pill and light powder charge..or any such combination.. I guess you'd have to disassembly a box of rounds to assess this...and weight all the parts...or..primer and case, pills powdsr..then maybe weigh the fired and cleaned brass...if you could sonic clean out all the primer...to find out the consistency of case weight.. Anyway .. interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing your research and bothering with all the editing ... Keep well Thanks.
Let this old man educate y’all. Weight sorting does nothing. And here’s why. Each loses .22lr round has four components. You have the brass, the priming compound, the powder charge, and the bullet weight. So by sorting LOADED ammo, which component changed on one that was a different weight? The weight of the brass? The powder charge? The amount of priming compound or the bullet weight? You don’t know. Nobody does. It is a total waste of time that I have known for over 40 years. This has already been tried by folks that cannot think. The only thing that can improve accuracy is by sorting according to RIM THICKNESS. The rim thickness is what sets headspace. If it is consistent, then they will group tighter, but……. Each group you sort will have to be sighted in as each groups will have a different POI. Already tested years ago.
I consider your recent editing to be top notch!
Between shooting targets, video editing, weight sorting ammo and now the upcoming rim thickness sorting, you’re gong to be one busy guy. I do appreciate your dedication of putting out interesting content. 👍
I have watched a lot of guys trying to prove that makes a difference however you are the first one that makes it perfectly clear that weight separation makes a difference and I would bet that measuring rim thickness will also make a difference..Thankyou for your efforts.
you took the question right out of my mouth regarding rim thickness variations, can't wait to see your results
Your videos are always great. I always watch them completely. Keep them coming. Thanks.
Thanks glad you enjoy them I plan to keep them coming and I think I may try to get more than 1 video per week. I’m going to try it and see how it goes. But I don’t want to over do it and at the same time I need to have time with my family. But thanks you so much for sharing this with me I appreciate you!
I like the new video editing format. Please keep up with it, even though its a lot of work, I think that when people watch it, get a feel for "real-time" data, shot by shot instead of just the summary statistics.
Just my opinion, but the significant "sorting" was already done by the manufacturer (such as Lapua, SK and Eley) by lots, batches and brands (SK Standard +, Rifle Match, Long Range Match, etc...) and verification through shooting in their test setup.
The "additional" sorting (by weight and by rim thickness) may or may not yield any additional benefit but would really be determined by statistically significance through multiple/repeatable experimentation and large sample sizes (minimum of 30 for statistical relevance). Factor in the time to perform the sorting by measurement and the large amounts of ammo you would have to test, and then repeat through different rifle setups (to negate any bias through any one rifle setup), most people (and Tubers) end up with the same conclusion...just find the lot that works best for your rifle and buy as much of the lot you can. Lather, rise, repeat when the lot runs low/dry.
I think it was very telling when you repeated the "best group" sorted weight (51.4gr) and saw nearly double the group size. My takeaway from this is: you need larger size shot group (20-30) to establish a relevant group size and repeat it several times to establish a group size/spread.
I would like to see you evaluate all the shooting you did in 2024 for each rifle and ammo type tested (at various distances) and provide your thoughts for each rifle you favor the ammo for the application or shooting objective. For example: The CZ457 with SK Rifle Match @ 50 yds for precision shooting because it consistently yielded the smallest group size, but would use SK Long Range Match (maybe even include the lot # if you have that info) for 100yds for shooting steel (or 6" targets) as it was more accurate (tended to center around POA) and for 200 yds either same ammo or maybe it was a different brand like Lapua Long Range. For colder weather, Lapua Polar Biathlon performed well over Eley, or something like that.
I love watching your channel as you are willing to shoot different rifles and test through many different brands of ammo (from cheap to uber elite) that you should be able to make some thoughts on which ammo for which shooting scenario as a 2024 summary of what you did.
As an engineer, I am always analyzing data, so please take the above comments as feedback and not negative towards what you have done and been doing. I think your format is fantastic and is one that I look forward to watching each time you post a new video.
Cheers!
Way to go Bro!!
Very nice presentation and science behind rimfire accuracy. Cant wait till your next episode.
Thank you!!
Merry Christmas!!
Merry Christmas to you and your family! Thanks for the kind words! You won’t have to wait long ha ha tomorrow morning is coming up fast. See you again tomorrow
@1:10 love your trigger lock.
I don't really post comments on TH-cam, but I MUST say your methodology, set up and editing is beyond world class. Well done Sir
Wow, thank you! I really appreciate that and thanks for sharing this with me. I hope you subscribe and follow my journey here on TH-cam. Hope you had a very merry Christmas and have a great new year! Cheers 🍻
@ oh I did absolutely subscribe and will follow you closely!
I am actually in France and love shooting 22Lr. I have a 457 Varmint with a MDT XRS chassis, a Arken EP5, I shoot SK pistol match and rifle match, amazing accuracy 👍
Great video. I am not a statistician, but I don’t see a definitely determinable correlation here. I guess I would reshoot the ammo used in your best group again on another day to see if it is repeatable. Many thanks for the time and effort you put into your work here!
I'm with you there, I'm going to test it again and see if that best group is repeatable. I also believe this is not a good way to sort the ammo. There are way to many variables that can’t be sorted. I think it was a good try but definitely not worth the effort and time.
Hey great effort on all the videos, really enjoying them. Good seeing all the different rifles and ammo. Finally got my handset on a brick of sk standard plus so keen to try it out. So hot and humid in North Queensland at the moment not going a lot but will be into it when the weather gets better. Keep up the good work 👌
There is always some amount of +/- for everything manufactured. Weight of powder charge, weight of brass, and weight of bullet all have a tolerance so sorting them by weigh while not perfect may show a sweet spot so long as 1 variable happens to be the culprit. If it is powder charge and the bullet weight and brass weight are identical then I believe the best results are possible. However, if within this group there are large inconsistencies in bullet weight too then the test will not readily produce any improvements outside of chance.
Interesting. I weighed the weight of the empty cases and I was surprised because the weight varies. Yes, sorting and weighing the balls is good. Measuring the rims I don't know because Eley has thin rims. Looking forward to seeing your tests.
Good point!
Very interesting. You always have good videos, just keep doing your thing. I don't always shoot the same procedures at home and consider that part of the fun. Looking forward to watching more from you. Thanks
Thanks! I agree, there's always something new to learn and try.
Thanks for the video. Weight sorting is a lot of work, maybe beneficial at 100 yards when trying to hit small targets.👍🏽👍🏽
I think it's more for the fun of it but also some serious shooters might find the benefits worth the effort. Not sure I’ll be doing it again though because the results weren’t night and day difference between sorted and not sorted
Bro its your channel, i enjoy watching however u wish to format it. B blessed
I definitely like that way you laid this video out.
Weight sorting is a rabbit hole.
Rim thickness play a little part. But definitely not worth the hours spent on sorting rim and or weight. Did little over 10,000. Rds this summer and started shooting better once I stoped.
Thanks for this test. As others point out, weight sorting 22 rimfire ammunition can’t tell us what component(s) is/are the variable(s), but your results have about convinced me to try sorting myself: something to do when I don’t feel like going to the range on a cold day. 😉
And as always, your test methods should serve as examples for other testers who are trying to convince us that their efforts demonstrate anything that we should pay any attention to: enough groups consisting of a significant number of shots fired with precise points of aim at meaningful distances. I also appreciate your using two chronographs at the same time. I really like the convenience of my Garmin unit, and it’s good to see that its readings are always within a few feet per second of the other’s.
I do not shoot competitively, but I have sorted 22lr ammo for years and still do today and yes it makes a difference take a brick " 500 ", and you'll see a weight swing of .1-.8 gr low to high but you will end up with three good groups about 90% of all rounds within .3 gr of each other, I use the others 10% for sighting/warmup rounds.
I shoot mainly Norma Tac22 that I buy in bulk or on sale for $4 per 50 or cheaper, I have shot the high end the $20 per box stuff, I don't shoot for trophies, just for fun and my gun likes Norma really well !! and I shoot every week, weather permitting
hundreds of rounds, cheap accurate fun !!
Thanks for sharing, keep up the great work.
Great video and format. It is admirable your attention to detail. I have CZ 457 LRP too and have sorted by weight and by rim thickness...(I don't have a life apparently) and I think rim thickness matters more! It is pretty hard to get ammo where I am, have not seen any of the best ammo from any makers other than Fiocchi in the area I live in NZ so it is interesting to see what I am missing out on. Thanks for a great series of videos Ryan...keep 'em coming! Happy New Year too!
I like the New video editing 👍🏼
Glad you liked it! I'm trying to improve!
I have never done the weighing and measuring. But it does show promise. I would go nuts measuring/weighing 250 rounds. 100 yards is a great place to test them. Less environmentally to affect it. Damn near impossible to duplicate again at say, 200y. Unless you had a few bricks of the same lot.
Enjoy your vids, the rabbit hole of 22lr accuracy is a head scratcher, I too am shooting a cz457 mtr tricked out with tuner, trigger, F class bipod, firing pin, chasis, and a gen iii vortex rzr scope. the ammo sk lrm has been sorted by rim thickness (jjones sliding scale) . I was shocked to see the different poi and corresponding velocity not always correlate high and low hits. I do clean the chamber after 200+ rounds to eliminate the carbon ring After sitting for about 20 minutes my first two shots seem to ;be the widest as far as fps and spread. cold bore??? Looking forward to more vids thanks
It is definitely a rabbit hole and I’m still digging for answers!
I really like this format of your video. Also like the 2 chrono's, they are giving very close readings. Also like your shooting style, staying on your rifle until you are finished shooting. It does not look as if the heavier rounds have a higher velocity, nearly the opposite. As you say, maybe rim thickness will give a better indication of accuracy gain.
That's a lot to keep up with. Nice work with the camera and editing. A barrel tuner can be time consuming like weight sorting. That SK sample is pretty good right out of the box.
Another great video enjoyed it very much. You do a great job. Just keep going.
Awesome video! Thanks mate. 👍
Glad you liked it! Thanks for watching
Interesting stuff. I like it.
Thanks
Can you get your hands on some large piping -50 yards worth for example- and perform tests which eliminate wind variation?
Seem to recall the Benchrest Guys getting quite fixated by rim thickness (headspace ?) rather than weighing ammo…
Excellent test. The 51.5 seemed like it may have been influenced by wind, but hard to say from 1800 miles away.😄
If you have the time, much smoother, however, I really enjoy all formats💯❤️
In my opinion, it's mostly about priming compound.
I agree
Watched a video about gasses building up in the barrel as it heats up causing larger groups. Makes me wonder if this has something to do with accuracy. This shooter would look thru the barrel and it would appear to be blocked until the gas cleared out. Just a thought. Thanks for great videos on rimfire, have enjoyed them all.
Wondering if after sorting by weight one could then check their balance points to see if it is the lead or the powder that was over or under. It almost looked like you increased the spread, moreso in the edge case weights, and seemed to have up to two different clusterings: ones more bullet heavy powder lighter, and other extreme with powder heavy bullet lighter. So many load variables to try and pry apart.😅
Good vid mate, cheers Yogi ✌️
Have a look at pursuit accuracy channel Josh did a very informative video on failure to eject and jams.
I wonder what the results would be if you sorted them by rim thickness now.
That’s my next step but I still haven’t made or bought a rim thickness gauge
@ I’m waiting on one from Raven Eye Custom. Need to pick up a 1/4” travel dial indicator. You can use a set of calipers but I would imagine a dial indicator setup would be faster.
Keep going in your testing because I've started doing the same, however I don't have a chrono yet, and I'm not sure what it all means because we can't control primer amount/weight, powder weight, and bullet weight. But it just seems to me that it's the speed, or lack there of, which makes one a "flyer" or not. Just my thoughts. Yes Keep them videos coming and maybe experiment with sk match?????
I didn’t see much correlation between vertical shot placement and velocity.
Personally I have better results with rim thickness sorting because there's only one factor-thickness. With weight sorting you don't know if the weight variance is in the the bullet, primer, powder or case.....just a thought. I like this format.
Watched you channel a few times now very few outhers shoot at 100 yards how long do you take between groups if at all
Absolutely does not work. There are too many variables you can't control or even put into the equation 😉
As soon as the rain and snow stop, I am doing a similar video also 😊
Thanks for sharing, Ryan! 👍
Hey, try doing single shots at single targets, because the next bullet will follow into the same one. Once you make a hole the air in front of the bullet will follow the path of less resistance. cheers
I never had any luck with sorting .22LR ammo weather it is weight, rim thickness or length. With air rifles I have good luck sorting by head size.
I could see more merit in separating by rim thickness, great vid tho!
I’ve thought about that as well!
I have to wonder if, by weight sorting, you're actually measuring the projectile and not powder?
Maybe the weight means each projectile is a different size, affecting the interface with the rifling. 🤔
BTW
I have no idea what I'm talking about!😅
I guess there are 4 parts to a 22rf. Case, powder primer and pill...possibly wax too.
As you can't assess these you can't tell if you have a heavy pill and light powder charge..or any such combination..
I guess you'd have to disassembly a box of rounds to assess this...and weight all the parts...or..primer and case, pills powdsr..then maybe weigh the fired and cleaned brass...if you could sonic clean out all the primer...to find out the consistency of case weight..
Anyway .. interesting stuff.
Thanks for sharing your research and bothering with all the editing ...
Keep well
Thanks.
Let this old man educate y’all. Weight sorting does nothing. And here’s why. Each loses .22lr round has four components. You have the brass, the priming compound, the powder charge, and the bullet weight. So by sorting LOADED ammo, which component changed on one that was a different weight? The weight of the brass? The powder charge? The amount of priming compound or the bullet weight? You don’t know. Nobody does. It is a total waste of time that I have known for over 40 years. This has already been tried by folks that cannot think. The only thing that can improve accuracy is by sorting according to RIM THICKNESS. The rim thickness is what sets headspace. If it is consistent, then they will group tighter, but……. Each group you sort will have to be sighted in as each groups will have a different POI. Already tested years ago.
DON'T THINK POI HAS TO MUCH TO DO WITH TENTH OF A GRAIN OF WEIGHT DIFFERENCE 🤔 🤔
remove this compensator from part and buy a varmint barrel nut from cz part, the groups are tighter
it's a waste of time