Dan Barker v Martin Kuhrt: Is the biblical God a malevolent, misogynistic, sadomasochistic bully?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- Richard Dawkins famously describes the God of the Old Testament as ‘jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully’.
Dan Barker and Rev Martin Kuhrt have both published books defending and refuting Dawkins’ description. They debate three of the charges on today’s show.
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Was a believer for thirty years and the sermonizing of the Biblical God’s horrors was a full time job. Dan did a great job
You're both heathen idiots. Your prize awaits in. Hell.
I was once a Muslim and the more I read the Quran and the Bible it became crystal clear to me that the stories in these books were fables. It’s been proven that Moses was a fictional character and he’s mentioned more in the Quran than the Prophet Muhammad. If Moses was sham then the entire book is. I’ve been done with religion for years and I will NEVER return to any of them! MY WIFE AND I ARE VERY PROUD ATHEISTS!💯✊🏿💪🏿👍🏿
Atheist?
Jesus paid a price at the cross for a reason
@@kronos01ful that's not a valid an argument specially for an atheist who doesn't believe Jesus rose from the dead, if you want to prove a point, your arguments have to be stronger, Jesus "paying the price" won't convince anyone who's isn't already a believer.
There's no evidence Moses existed but I'm not sure how anyone can prove he never existed either.
The Egyptians never took the Israelites or Hebrews as slaves if they did they would have recorded it they were meticulous record keepers
I was a believer and sunday school teacher for many years including taking every bible study class I could and the book of Job was my last. The pastor's wife was leading the study and I asked her how god could do all these things to "his child" just to prove a point to satan? Her only reply was "to prove his power above satan's and besides, god replaced what he allowed satan to take by sevenfold". I'm thinking "Are you kidding me"?! Just like Dan said, "How can you replace 1 child for another"? As a parent, I could not imagine allowing anything bad to happen to my child for any reason. This was when my eyes and mind were opened and I'm happier than I've ever been in my life and secure in knowing that it is all manmade. Job well done Dan Barker! Thank you!
Book v Job well done too
Carl JUNG wrote a book Answer to Job. V interesting
We don't even replace a pet for our kid when one dies. And whenever we do in a sitcom or drama it's always the wrong answer.
I was raised by christian parents. When I started doubting, I really read the bible for the first time, not only the few nice parts I was shown as a child. And it worked, I am an atheist now.
How's it like to perpetually bear the burden of opinion?
You're a foolish heathen. There's a wonderful spot for you in Hell.
nothing makes more atheists than (really) reading the bible.
@@dany_fgI am almost done but still Christian
@@heathersnyder8789ah ok, well there's plenty in Revelation to turn your stomach and mind.
I don’t see how anyone can argue with Dan’s logic. That story about Job is insane
Martin Kuhrt dances around and deflects (makes unrelated, separate points), but he really had no answer to Dan Barker's articulate description and characterization of the Job story. For someone who doesn't presuppose the truth of the Bible, it's clear and obvious that apologists are just rationalizing and defending things for which they have no good answer. The true conclusion is obvious: the Bible is entirely manmade, and the Christian (and Jewish) God is pure fiction. What's notable is that a reasonably good group of fiction writers and philosophers, today, could get together and draft a really good fictional "Bible" for a brand new God, in a completely new religion, and avoid the blatant contradictions and moral problems in the actual Bible----and the new Bible/New Religion would be just as fictional as the actual Bible/Christian God, but the new Bible/New Religion would just be a lot harder to impugn. We're fortunate that the actual Bible's creators/writers/compilers did such a poor job, and so it's very easy to see, as a modern reader, that it's pure fiction.
Martin is like a defense attorney here. He is giving some sort of justification for bad things about God that are indeed depicted in scripture. How sad that a God needs a defense attorney to make himself look good. If he really was All powerful, he could simply explain himself clearly in the first place.
Or maybe people like you are just really bad at interpreting ancient literature and understanding the truth….But no, it must be that God is bad because your feelings are your ultimate guide, and obviously feelings are the ultimate path to all truth….
So god makes an entire peaceful group of people flee from their homes so HIS people can take over, and if they fight back they die. THAT is moral to you??!?!
Only if they believe in the same God that gave them the land. So it will never be moral to you, and it was always be moral to them.
Huh America?
Guess everyone needs to go back to Europe Africa etc….
That's exactly why they created this God to justify their devastating other cities and towns and murdering the inhabitants
This is all about where one starts:
#1. If you start from the position that you don't know whether some purported deity is moral or immoral and then go to examine its purported actions/commands, then you can possibly make a determination based on what it purportedly said and did.
#2. If you start from the position that the deity in question can do no wrong and all it says or does MUST be moral, then it doesn't matter what the deity said, commanded or condoned, the conclusion has already been set.
On the other hand, if a person starts from #2 there doesn't seem to be much point in having a conversation about it in the first place since anything anyone suggests to the contrary will inevitably be rejected.
I found this debate and thought the same thing, whats the point of dan even trying. Dan used to be a number two as well which says a lot. I prefer listening to ex believers in these debates than atheist speakers who never believed.
Yes, but you are grossly assuming that those who go with number 1 have an infallible moral compass in everything and that everything they find objectionable ultimately is wrong. This is the height of hubris.
@@keatsiannightingale2025 Yes, it would be, but since it isn't something you've demonstrated, you've just assumed that I've assumed such a thing when I haven't, it's not a problem - at least not for me.
@@keatsiannightingale2025stop being disingenuous. There are some things that are universally morally not permissible no matter someone’s moral compass. Rape, blatant murder etc.
The point: remember when you feel hopeless, is that maybe and that maybe is high probablity, maybe someone else will hear or see what YOU heard and saw and shake their heads like a dog and free their minds from this stuff. It's not easy if it was taught to you very young, and if you have a good lfe, you think it's your rewards.
I remember the preachers used to say that the poor and down trodden wish for jesus to return the most because they wished for the glorious world he offered. While the rich were having their cake.
But another thing that happens is the poor and down trodden have their eyes opened easier because they know how much they bellieved and none of the bible promises came true. and the upper middle class think they did . And they say you're poor because you don't believe. And it is hard to convince them otherwise when your personal life is not profitable.
Why would god be in favor of capitalism?
Thankyou Dan for promoting rational enquiry and critical thinking.
If you call Poisoning the well, showing that you’re incapable of engaging anything related to Christianity remotely beyond the most superficial fundamentals level possible, lying constantly being called out for your mistakes and then doing nothing with double down on those mistakes. Critical thinking then I guess so, if Dan Barker is like the bar for critical thinking we are doomed as a society.
I went into this episode as neutral as I could and have not listened to content like this in a while.
But I found some of the responses to Dan Barkers points absolutely frustrating. I don't know how he kept such a calm!
A thoroughly unconvincing apologetic. Not sure what a good one would look like.
No such thing as “good apologetics” from what I’ve seen.
@Paul Morgan I agree his arguments here were poor, however I am not sure you could blame the mess in the world on Christian thought, which is a call to defend the poor, uphold justice and stand against wickedness through love. Atheist thought is behind some of the most awful atrocities in human history, and a lack of fearing God has the ability to create selfish, 'all about me' power systems. Not saying atheists are all like that, just that the basis of atheism allows for justification of those behaviours way more than bible based teaching. What exactly do you see in Jesus that makes you say that?
@Paul Morgan I think the majority of people would agree that was Hitler and the Nazis, and that is my view. You?
@Paul Morgan I would say that anti-semitic thought and action stems from a person's view that people are not all made in the image of God, and that there are 'lesser' humans. This kind of thought springs from a heart turned away from God, producing hate for others and pride, that begins as thoughts and when 'full grown' leads to awful things like holocausts.
Where do you see this kind of action and belief about Jewish people (or other groups of people, or individuals) coming from? Is it not from the heart of a person?
@Paul Morgan I did know that. Do you think they were being 'Christian'? Because I would submit to you that people can say things about themselves and act in ways that do not align with what they say. Where in the bible do you see the basis of their actions?
Dan Barker, thank you for pointing out about Job’s children being wiped out and God just replacing them with new ones without remorse, and like the first ones didn’t even matter. I thought I was the only person who thought of that; I’m so glad I’m not the only one! Also, why did God have to prove anything to Satan anyway?!?! And use a faultless innocent man to prove it his point? Uggghh, I hate that book!
This was fascinating! Martin had nothing to offer that negated Dan’s points. As Dan said, all he did was preach and pontificate, desperately flailing around searching for some- any- way to squirm out of the accusations. Good job, Dan! And Justin was a very good mediator
I've always suspected that seminary school taught new preachers to couch their bullshit in cozy language. I'm so glad to see Dan using it defending reality.
All Dan did was show how incompetent he is in interpreting Biblical literature. Only the gullible and biased could honestly find his takes from Job convincing and forceful.
@@keatsiannightingale2025 Wow. Projection at it's finest.
@@davex444
Wow, That's right on the mark
It's people like @keatsiannightingale that scare the living sh!t out of me
Or to say it otherwise
I fear no "God" , Because there is no "God"
But by "God" I do so fear "his / her" messengers
Of any & all religions
Theocracies are spreading across the globe
Televangelists are sucking money from the elderly & poor
with empty promises of an imaginary heaven
I too was a true believer in my childhood and later teens
brainwashed in the Dutch Reformed Church
When I was a child, I believed as a child
I am a child no more
Luckily saw the light at the end of the sixties
Been a happy go lucky Atheist ever since
It would be fascinating to see how much longer Martin was allowed to speak compared to Dan. I know it's petty AF. But it seemed asymmetrical at best
I love Job- God side steps with the best of em, when Job asks why? God points out how great God is, but he doesn’t answer the question, why because he’d have to admit he gambled with Satan- a horrible fictional story
It was exactly apologetics like Martin that made me leave Christianity when i was doubting
What sorts of doubts were you having?
Honestly, I can see why here .....but there are much better responses available, so would encourage you to search a little more if you are open to that. But based on the responses given here, I got pretty frustrated myself, as he basically didn't answer the questions and seemed evasive.
@@clarad7669 he wasn’t being evasive, he was realizing he had zero answers that wouldn’t be able to immediately be demolished by logic
@@clarad7669 and i assume you’re a woman... and you want to DEFEND the stuff that’s in the bible that informed all the bigotry (that’s described in this discussion) against woman throughout history?!?!?
@@dkirk_official how did you come to the conclusion that the Bible informed bigotry throughout history?
Is the biblical God a malevolent, misogynistic, sadomasochistic bully?
YES, YES IT IS.
Luckily, for all of us. It is IMAGINARY
Kurht’s defence of what God did to Job is pathetic.
ask him about KEEP ALL THE VIRGINS, GENOCIDE THE CITIES, FIRSTBORNS, WATER GENOCIDE, SLAVERY. STONE WOMAN and CHILDREN . what to do with pregnant woman withs swords, suckling infants with rocks, put me on this show I CALL THIS PSYCHO A EVIL PSYCHO.
I always wondered why God had to kill all the first-born children in Egypt when he sent the plagues so that Moses would be freed. Even the first-born children of the hapless slaves were not spared. I mean, these were innocent children and had nothing to do with Moses. When i asked religious people about this, all they said to me was "Don't question the wisdom of God".
It's too easy for them to answer this way. That's because they do not know. Or at most they say it's the mystery of god, mystery of faith. I answer it was an event perfectly explainable as a natural phenomena, and it was taken as source by the Israelites and romanticized, emphasizing as it were deeds of their elohim Yahweh.
This natural phenomena occurred twice again, featuring almost every plague mentioned in the biblic event.
@@lepidoptera9337
Yes. Apparently, God had to go through the "screenplay" of 10 plagues to punish the Pharaoh.
I mean if you are a Being with infinite power that created the entire Universe, why would you go to such trouble of sending 10 plagues at all? You can just will something and the entire country of Egypt will be instantly dissolved out of existence.
However, if that was the case, then i guess the Book of Exodus would probably be just 1 paragraph long. LoL
Barker is great! There is nothing like a former believer revealing the weakness of theistic arguments.
"God is a meany therefore he doesn't exist." Such science. So logic.
@@philo3407 The fact that you are dismissive on this issue reveals your religious bias and inability to hold a conversation about challenges to your faith. Just keep believing in that faith crap.
@@vilicus77 weak arguments don't scare me or challenge my faith. Guess what, you're a meaning so you don't exist. I win.
@@vilicus77 You don't actually give any reason for saying 'Barker is great!' Why would you say so?
@@mensetens6391 He has a powerful deconversion story and his books have been very helpful to many people.
The is what religion does... You can no longer distinguish between love and abuse. Your deity is definitionally good, so any abuse must go through the apologetic process to excuse it. They all sound like the abused wife trying to excuse away the bruises left by their spouse.
Apt given the title of bride given to Israel. Tough most times the punishments are more like reaping what you sow kinda deals.
You’re absolutely right. Barker definitely killed it in this debate.
The rose colored glasses have think tint. We have our own perceptual filters naturally but when they put the God glasses on and filter out genocide and rape and tribalism to say “well God is the creator so he reserves the right to end life or violate and women and children”. Sigh
N like the EVIL PSYCHOS THE YARE. I was a DUPOE, didn't read the book AT ALL. I found christendumb2, his first video he shows that YWH BOOKK IS ATATED BY YWH TO BE ALL TRUE
HE STTAED JUST ONE THAT THAT'S NOT TRUE, MAKES IT AL A LIE. I QUIT. I played most of the rets of his videos and I WA SDISGUSTED. many I CAN'T PLAY
slavery, TORT, what they do to PREGNANT WOMAN,, CHILDREN ANIMALS. I was like what EVILPSYCHOS. follow,, wrote this garbage
@Unbelievable @Justin I just wanted to say how much I enjoy this show. I'm an atheist and found out about it from you having cosmic skeptic on. I really wanted to give my feedback but didn't know the best place so I'm leaving it here.
First off I want to say while I'm an atheist, I have the utmost respect for this show. To elaborate, I really like how this show exposes the general public to these ideas. I think Justin does an amazing job as the host and moderator. Many times moderators can hinder a conversation more than help, but I find Justin does an amazing job of remaining largely neutral (even though I'm fine with him giving his own thoughts and think that can often add to the conversation), keeping the dialog moving, and summarizing or making more concise the ideas and arguments for those who are less familiar with them and philosophy in general.
I think discourse on these ideas are very important and bennaficial, and that gives me gratitude for this show and the work of those involved with it.
P.s. I recommended to atheist friends as well as my brother who is a Methodist and enjoys philosophy of religion as well as Christian history. Also as an aside, I know it's a Christian show but I would love to see some other religions get some representation. Maybe you could do episodes where you have a Hindu or Muslim etc. on and discuss differences as well as common ground, or why they believe their particular religion as opposed to others. I'm looking forward to watching through more of your content, and want to say thank you again to everyone working to produce this show.
Thanks for being one of the good ones. 😁
I am an atheist and completely agree with what you wrote. Justin does an amazing job as moderator. The conversations are great.
I find it slightly interesting but having these discussions putting both sides forward as equally valid is wrong . One side is based on 21st century knowledge and understanding the other is Bronze Age myths and ignorance . Like the thousands of other ‘stories’ from thousands of other cultures the Christian one has the same legitimacy as the rest and deserves the same revilance .
The TLDR summary of Martin - "We must not take terrible passages literally, even if it's sensible to do so, and also I can interpret any passage in a positive light, therefore God is good and all is well"
i.e. a coward boot licker
You just can't compete with someone who was a former believer for years
So god can declare SOME laws, just not monogamy!? Can't ban slavery!? He can say don't steal and murder, but can't say don't buy slaves!? Come on...
I would love to see a Christian apologist respond to this point.
@@stealth797 here’s how they respond:
1) it’s not the same as antebellum slavery!!!!!! It was much nicer (as if certain types of slavery are okay).
2) they got to go free after 6 years, so it’s really like indentured servitude. This is true in Exodus 21 but not in Leviticus 25:44-46.
If you talk with an apologist, make them focus on Leviticus 25:44-46 and foreign slaves. Don’t let them dodge with the indentured servitude passages.
@@Iamwrongbut
On the old timey definition, our prison population would be all classified as slaves, specially if they do some manual labour witch many of them do.
The passage @I am wrong but refers to is not that bit of a gold nugget against believers. It simply states that perpetual slaves are to be taken from other peoples, never Israelites, as israelites are specifically tasked with being servants of God.
But even those get freed if they are harmed:
“An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth."
@@handler8838 the “harm” passage you refer to only refers to excessive punishment. After all, if you beat your slave and they recover within a few days, they do not get freed.
Further, how are you okay with perpetual slaves in any regard? How is it ever morally okay to own another human being? Your point about prison sounds a lot like what Southern slave owners used to say before the civil war...
Although I always enjoy any chance to hear Dan speak, I found this "debate" frustrating because Martin seems unable to comprehend the questions Dan raises and goes on to wax eloquent about some possible general good that could be found if the reader already had a moral framework. A moral framework superior to the one put forth in the specific passage.
I'm reminded of the passage: I once was blind but now I see". Martin is blind, perhaps willfully.
I suppose the real debate is who has the gift of "site"? Humans long for an athority to settle this question but the answer lies within.
So allowing suffering and humiliation of good people is justified because it make for good literature.
Which good people do you have in mind?
@@barry.anderberg In the Bible, both God and the demon He was betting with agreed that Job was a good, godly, and pious man. It is taught in most churches that the story of Job represents how good, pious, godly people should behave in the face of adversity, tragedy and pain.
@@estuchedepeluche2212 So is it good literature or does it represent the truth?
@@barry.anderberg The truth that God make people suffer for no good reason?
@@estuchedepeluche2212 How did you conclude that suffering is for no good reason?
Justin gave a couple of minutes to Dan and then 15-20min to the Christian, and helped in the arguments against Dan. The most lopsided episode I’ve ever seen. Seems like Justin has dropped all pretence of being a fair debate or discussion between theists and atheists. Justin - what are you doing? Where will this lead you?
Agreed. His bias was giving away
I’m a Christian, but I do believe Dan Barker did a better job with this debate
May I ask why you stay a Christian? Please don't take it as a negative. I happen to be agnostic but am interested to know WHY people see truths and evidence against their position, but keep their position.
@@seanodowd4085 Well, I just read a lot of books and study both sides and I just came to the conclusion that Christianity is true. Nothing more and nothing less.
@@swiftsea6225 cool! Can you offer any suggestions where I can see the evidence of truth? I appreciate it!
@@seanodowd4085 Well I think you should compare evidence on both sides. I I would recommend starting with the debate between Richard Swinburne and Graham Oppy the debate was something like “Does God Exist?”
Then you can look up the 7 hour resurrection debate between Mike Licona and Bart Ehrman, but that cost $50 to see, but it’s worth it. Then I suggest you should read books by professional philosophers who are both Theists and Atheists. But please STAY AWAY from Pop-Apologists and Atheists.
Apologists: Frank Turek, Lee Strobel, and J Warner Wallace
Pop-Atheist: Dan Barker, Richard Dawkins, or any other of the four horsemen of atheism. They’re not bad people, they just overestimate their case and are uncharitable to the other side.
Lastly, this is unrelated to religion, but you should read regular or classic fiction books and poetry, just to rest your mind for a bit, trust me it’s good for you. I recommend either Catcher In The Rye or Fahrenheit 451 (my personal favorite).
But trust me, the hardest thing about this journey is to accept the fact that your questions will take time to satisfy, months maybe even years if you’re really devoted.
Source is trust me bro😂😂😂
Justin kept saying, the glass is half full for Martin but half empty for Dan, but the point is, why would the glass be only half-way filled if this god really existed?
And why would you want to look for the half full version abuse??? Do people say hey, my spouse only hits my 3 days a week, so really look at how much they love me 4 days a week.
The short answer; YES!
The longer answer; Well Of Course He Is!!!
In short, yes!
I was very disappointed with Martins responses. He was not very direct in answering the questions. And didn’t seem to at all in some cases. Dan does a good job at asking very good and pointed questions. However lacking in some contextual understanding.
I love listening to how Christians justify god's immorality. I am so glad I no longer have to worry about this.
Well, not me. I am a Christian who realized from studying the Bible that the God of the old testament was the devil.
As a christian I rarely read the bible, and so didn't really think/worry about these issues!!! Probably like most Christians, I would wager. Now I'm an atheist because of actually reading the bible, and know 10x more about it.
Is there anyone who's seen someone defeat Dan Barker's arguments against God?
No and there never will be. Unless God reveals himself/herself/ itself 😁
Trent Horn
@@chrisobrien6254 Trent Horn couldn't defeat a bacon cheeseburger.
@@rembrandt972ify 🤣
Yes dr james white listen to the debate 👌
Even Justin was cringing to some of the Martin's laughable justifications of the various God's misogynies like the impurity of the women giving birth to daughters vs sones.
why is that misogynistic?
@@user-pv9pv4xf9c Daughters make the mother impure and sons don't? hello?
@@TopoTopaco but what does it actually mean if a mother is impure? Perhaps the birthing process is a little different whether or not a woman gives birth to a boy or girl. I know my one coworker's daughter had a bowl movement while in her womb during the delivery process, and it was a bit of a complication. But nothing modern medicine can't fix. Maybe girls are more likely to do that.
@@user-pv9pv4xf9c I seriously doubt that is more likely the case with female babies than Male babies, and I seriously doubt that's why they claim that a mothers more impure after delivering a female than a male.
@Paul Morgan We see everything in very short term. I've never had to suffer like that and if I did it would probably not seem like a short time and would be pretty unbearable, but if we can endure pain our character is stronger. An easy life with comforts and no difficulties can't make us noble and righteous and truly good, which is what God's most interested in. If we seek his kingdom and righteousness and are prepared to suffer for it, something much greater and eternal awaits beyond the short span that is our lives. God wanting our worship isn't for him, it's for us. It's what we need most
If only we atheists understood the context of the repugnant parts of the Bible. We just don’t understand! 🙄
The Christian apologist stammers for minutes over Yahweh telling Satan that he allowed him to destroy Job "FOR NO REASON"! AMAZING!
Even in an unfair lopsided format , Dan still beat his arse. You can tell the mediator favored his Christian beliefs and didn’t give Dan half the time he gave Martin . Martin just makes up chit
Yes, next question
Wrong answer. Now what?
While I have absolutely no doubt that Martin is a lovely person and a well-loved minister, he is, in my opinion, a classic example of how Christians have spent the last 2,000 years fitting a square peg into a round hole. Apologetics is now a well oiled machine. Martin of course is just one of a long line of Christain apologists, who over the centuries try to rationally explain universal suffering and the utterly unChristian nature of God. Although I was brought up in a devout Christian home, I now cannot understand why anyone would want to worship the God of the Old Testament.
Agree 100%
We sound foolish and immoral when we doggedly treat the Old Testament the same as the New. We don't refuse to update our notions of science, mathematics, music theory, etc, and yet we don't think that this makes mathematics unbelievable, or that there's no reason to read Archimedes or Galen. Dan is clearly correct: the implied values of parts of the OT do not match modern values in ways which make them less holy.
Any debate about Jewish behaviors inserting the anti-Semitism trigger-word instantly looses any merit.
Dan Barker played a major part in guiding me realistically and logically, into an atheist position. I've never been happier ! Thank you Dan Barker
He's up there among my favorites
Dan Barker is a complete joke. Watch his debate with James White. That guy is laughable.
@@manne8575 I did. He massacred White. Dan doesn't lose debates. Atheists don't lose god debates. All Theists reuse stale, debunked arguments
@@JnWayn "Dan doesn't lose debates. Atheists don't lose god debates."
Haha, nice job proving your ignorance and bias. I won't even bother responding to you anymore, you just made it clear that there's no point in trying to help your deluded mind.
@@manne8575 yeah, post your comment then run away, cuz eventually, only I could back up my claim. Only you need an excuse. Have at it. Bye
The god of the new testament is even worse: he promises to burn me for ever and eternity.
OT jahweh at least limited the suffering to maybe a couple of minutes in drowning, slaughtering by his fanclub or maybe somewhat longer in stoning. And Job suffered a couple of weeks. But he got special attention, being jahweh's homie.
Why do you say "worse"? That implies there is a better condition, which means you have an absolute standard for how things ought to be. Please tell me what is your standard or ultimate authority before you start comparing conditions as better or worse.
@@ProverbsOne-Seven so without God telling me which is better or worse I cant say putting my hand on a burning stove is worse than my putting it on a pillow?
I guess you should repent and believe the gospel.
@@ProverbsOne-Seven
My standard is well being. Makes things easy isn't it? No god, no goodbook required.
There is no absolute standard by the way. Maybe in your good book, not in reality. Stealing is wrong? Always? Also if you steal to feed a starving child?
And you don't need an absolute standard to judge whether someting is better or worse: being burnt for ever and eternity is worse than 3 hours on a cross.
The new testament teaches conditional immortlaity. That is the unsaved will perish or cease to existnot burn in hell for all of eternity. I suggest you check out the rethinking hell website. Also Bart Ehrman who is not a chrsitian but a new testament scholar agrees with this and even wrote a book about it.
Thank you dan barker for pointing job. God is not loving at all he allowed unnecessary suffering.
Dan Barker always makes sense, the apologists on the other never do, they just agree the book is sick and think it’s what’s best at the time because god says so. Absolute nonsense, to think how far our knowledge of the sciences and the universe has come yet we are still talking as if a god may exist? Utter madness, wake up already
Justin desperately trying to help out......so so many times.
It's his show, he can be biased and team up with the Christian however much he wants.
Perhaps he does not realize it makes everybody see that the host himself thinks that the Christian *needs* saving - every time.
Not every time. Sometimes the Christian defeats the non Christian. William Lane Craig is hard to beat when he is on form, for example. But in this case, I am sorry to say, and it is no ad hominem attack at all, the Christian speaker really was floundering.
@@machyndman9933 WLC can indeed be formidable. Are you aware of William Craig's response to the murder of the midianites? He destroyed himself there.
@@LASLAY13 No. interested if you can send a link., However I am more and more convinced (what a silly phrase that is) that these debates change nobodies points of view, to wit, they only confirm what people already think. Doesn’t stop me enjoying them!
@@machyndman9933 The part that I found truly disgusting is how WLC justifies that the Israeli soldiers who were ordered to do the killings were the real victims.
It is amazing how Martin knows exactly what god meant, his interpretations fully confident and one can not help but feel like god has personally talked to Martin, not......
Yeah because barker presents his similarly biased views with extreme humility and no boasting or confidence.
I just want to say, from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU for saying "titled".
My parents never brainwashed me to believe in religion and deity, I'm thankful every day. I've always been fascinated by theists and have spent far too much of my time researching wether their may be merit in their faith. Bottom line is that sadly the human race needs religion and God belief but to think it's more than superstitious beliefs is just stupid and proposterous. Thankfuly as we evolve there is becoming less need for the discipline and fear tools God brings but sadly some of the behaviours we see every day remind us why religion and God were invented by man.
It's amazing to hear someone in the 21st. century talk about 'Satan' as being a real thing, and I use the word 'thing' as being preferable to referring to Satan as a person, something that I've found ridiculous since I stopped believing in Santa Claus 50 plus years ago. I've never really thought of myself as an atheist but as a humanist.
One other point I hate in discussions of the bible is that debaters as brilliant as Hitch', mention the great literature in the bible; this is nonsense. If you've read great literature, you quickly realise that it is not apparent in the bible. The 'literature' as such is turbo charged by the flowery, opaque biblical language. If you want literature start with Keats of Shakespeare, they both write at a level that the misogynistic biblical writer could hardly imagine, so constrained by their beliefs as they were.
There's some good parts in the Bible, but they're mostly ancient Near East myths or folk-tales taken and retold to fit this crazy OT god, which has lead to complete incoherence for what the OT even is.
I wish you were kidding.
_I've never really thought of myself as an atheist but as a humanist._
Those are not opposed. Whether you 'think of yourself' as something does not mean that you are not that thing.
_debaters as brilliant as Hitch_
Christopher Hitchens was not 'brilliant.' He as an enjoyable, quick-witted debater who unfortunately was also intellectually lazy (he would not research Mother Teresa before he wrote his hatchet-job on her. There are no footnotes or bibliography in the slim --- 195 pages in my copy --- volume), and when called on it in a debate, reminding him that he hadn't even been to Calcutta, his only defense was, 'Well, there was no guarantee of finding her in, was there?' There were no telephones, no post in his time? He couldn't have scheduled a visit?
His history was selective, his facts one-sided and limited. The only thing he had going for him was presentation, not sufficient for 'brilliance.'
_The 'literature' as such is turbo charged by the flowery, opaque biblical language_
'Now art should never try to be popular. The public should try to make itself artistic' (Oscar Wilde)
To complain about 'the language' is a schoolboy's indolent objection. The Bible was not written to you but to your longfathers (poetically speaking). Learn that language the way we have to learn Shakespeare's or Chaucer's.
_the misogynistic biblical writer_
Really? Who? You don't give any examples in your post, you know, only assertions.
There are a ton of atheist and/or humanists out there with great ideas, and you are not one of them.
Plus the rampant elitism "I hereby declare that one work of literature created over 2000 years later tan the other and influenced by the first one, is more complex".
@@LordJagd Are there really that many inconsistencies with OT God? He is basically always portrayed as loving and somewhat permissive but very jealous.
@@handler8838 Incoherent insofar that he is mostly a collage of either different perspectives on god from different eras in Israelite history or he is from two very different traditions altogether. The scholars pointing out the J and E and P sources of the OT have done a great job at showing this difference, and how sheerly stark it is at times.
“Murder has to be avenged for justice”, good one, but not all “sinner” commit murder, some just have a lustful thought, steal when hungry or curse in the trusts of rage.
OK. Now what? What conclusion should we draw from this?
@@mensetens6391 I really don’t know, but, to an extent, I agree with traditional legal theory that stipulates that the punishment has to fit the crime.
@@estuchedepeluche2212 Yes. Where are you going with this?
@@mensetens6391 a conclusion.
Good job Martin!!! Seek God while He may be found and you have breath.
Can anyone believe that the Christian guy wrote a whole book as a response and somehow forgot to tackle the issue that God explicitly terrorised Job "for no reason"?
Have to say Dan did a better job of providing good argument for his point than the theist that tried to hand wave away the obviously immoral character of the biblical god. Well done Dan!
I'm thirty mins in. Does the Christian guy ever give an answer? Before I watch the rest of it
Sorry, but towards the end of Job, didn't God rebuke Job when He said Where were you when I formed the mountains and the rest of creation? If Job never sinned and remained blameless, why did God take him to task about that?
Anyone else thought of Mary Poppins? “Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious” lol
I am so disappointed with Martin’s responses, in this debate, although I am a christian, I have to say that the atheist did much better.
Yeah, especially with the book of Job. He pretty much didn’t give answer at all. The accusation of God in Job is fair; it’s a difficult text and I was hoping for a more scholarly explanation of the opening section.
Atheists have no moral foundation. It was kind of cute watching him try to bd morally outraged
@Miriam Novo. I'm not sure it's possible to do much better than Martin to be honest. That Old Testament deity character is seems pretty indefensible.
@@adamcraig1468 "Atheists have no moral foundation. It was kind of cute watching him try to bd morally outraged" That's just you parroting apologists. Lot's of studies on meta-ethic studies on naturalist morality having been refuted. Theists like you just go about making bald assertions you can't actually back up.
@@elawchess sorry, no objective moral foundation. There.
Maybe someday we will be able set aside the ancient superstitions. Just not the years 2020/2021 apparently. Actually sad to see so many believe such crazy falsehoods.
Why would god feel jealous? He could always just make more people? And why give us brains? If all he wants is worship?
This sure sounds like a friend(Dan) came to another friend(Martin) and points out the abuse, lies, etc. they have suffered from their spouse, and Martin is just sadly coming up with excuses, and suffering from severe cognitive dissonance.
18:50 terrible response
Well if you have to ask...
It's not bullying when god does it. Because we can only judge this one particular god in this special way that absolves him of any wrongdoing.
Special pleading? Sure, but there's scriptural precedence for that.
@@Iverath there is no prescient for logical fallacies. They simply can not exist in your argument and simultaneously claim you have a good argument
Yes an argument based on a category error is fallacious and not good. The god described in the Old Testament is not the same type of thing as gods described in other religions nor as humans and it doesn’t even make sense to the judge it as though it were either of those.
@@49perfectss Vortex Harmonics is the Proof.
@@sammcknight8671 For lasers ya. God? Nope. Wait are you that moron who thought the water wheel was super advanced because you have almost no education? Hahaha guy you're too dumb to address further so don't expect me to read your next reply as you clearly don't know what you're talking about lol
Maybe this god should know not to put a couple of forbidden trees in the middle of a garden with people who don't know right from wrong yet, and a talking serpent that they will actually listen to instead of running away from it scared sh*tless since serpents can't talk.
It is like a parent putting a baby in a crib with a loaded gun, telling the baby not to use the gun, and then putting their sibling in the room to show them how to use it. Whose fault is that when they get shot?!?!?
It's an honest-to-God *miracle* that so many christians are pretty good people, given the character of Whom they worship; TAKE THAT, ATHEISTS!!
An entire town of Christians drove telltale out of his home for the simple fact he tried to reveal the corruption in the PUBLIC school. Nifb church preaches nothing but hatred towards LGBT people. Loads of Christians will basically disown anyone who comes out as atheist.
Kent hovind has an entire series called whack an atheist.
Don't act like Christians are any different than any other human.
@@ForgedinPrint ah yes, but you're talking about the *real* Christians! they're just as horrible (well almost) as their God. Most Christians I encounter are surprisingly reasonable outside their supernatural beliefs. (but I live in the Netherlands 🤷♂️)
Love this series! 👍💯
Thank you for your work. You are bringing enlightenment to christians.
It's funny that I don't know if you are theist or Atheist when you say that haha
TY Dan.
Can you marvel at the imagination of the human being? The stories and excuses that oone can come up with be they from the Jewish rabbi to this current Priest. Remember the disco song: Lies, Lies, Lies.
Loving the Advent purple, Justin.
It always baffles me, to see the length a believer, especially the educated ones goes to defend this fictional monster. What's wrong with these people.
It really makes no sense. It seems that these people NEED this god to exist, but why?
It always baffles and amazes me the legnth that educated atheists will go to disprove bronze age fairy tales.
Dan Barker is being a badass sadist here. He roughed up Martin Kuhrt pretty bad with just straight logic 🙂
It's like the song says with friends like that Lord you don't need enemies.
So...prior to creating us this god had no identity? Or...perhaps he wasn’t satisfied with it? Why create at all if we simply end up as “objects of his wrath “? Selfish
I sure hope he’s happy with his new “human factor” identity. Ridiculous!
?!? You ever heard of something called Genesis?
Is this still in dispute in 2020?
Have you heard of Flat Earth? LOL. People believe what they want to, not what critical thinking & evidence suggest.
@@skyeangelofdeath7363 do you know that people believe in God with good evidence right we could disapprove the flat earth but no one can disapprove God
No, but people pretend it is because xtians refuse to read their own holy book.
@@webslinger527 where's the good evidence? If y'all have all this evidence then why isn't the scientific community investigating it?
@@robyn6174 what do you mean the scientific Community is investigating you do know that God is beyond this world right. God is Supernatural Beyond this world because he created this world. It's hard to find evidence of another world while you're in a different world but doesn't mean it doesn't it isn't thier. God's evidence is US existing the universe the complexity Evolution all the things that we take for granted dick Evolution example what looks like a random assortment of animals to him was a giant web you pull one string and a whole different species is born until eventually it may be men. That's why the Bible tells us that we are like the Beast we will die like beast but we aren't the Beast for separate from them we're different we're ninety-nine percent monkey and yet while they're throwing feces and Hurley sticks were building missiles and nuclear bombs assault rifles and missiles to Mars that's 1% different just imagine what else we could be waiting for us and we don't even know exist
God can never defend himself. He needs his defense lawyers to speak for him. Delivers a book full of contradictions and issues that raise more questions than it answers and then vanishes from the face of the earth once humans started recording stuff.
Dan you have the patience of a saint, pun intended🙏
get the feeling Martin wont's to "Hide"something.
Feelings are not thoughts. They aren't even facts beyond their mere existence.
Dan Barker v Martin Kuhrt: Is the biblical God a malevolent, misogynistic, sadomasochistic bully?
YES he is and/or IT is that is God is a Bully....
it's halarious how apologist have to change the context of what is written to make them look like liers just to believe this fictional book.
Biblical God is mirror of the society when this book was first written. Bronze and iron age Middle East and Eastern Mediterranean.
He also invented the talking snake ,Martin,
and who was writing down these conversations between satan and god,and where did they happen ?
The answer is in your question, GOD (Elohim), the angels, prophets, patriarchs, priests, kings, laymen. The text tells us.
It's like asking who witnessed the events at the Cross of Calvary, then forgetting about the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the context of the bible. So this depends on whether you trust your understanding as greater knowledge than what is presented within the biblical themes.
The serpent was used as a medium. You believe a snake could talk if it acquired small accumulative changes over millions of years. What are the boundaries of reality?
Dan Barker kicks butt
Dan is member of Lenape tribe. I am very interested in revival of native american languages. Especially eastern tribes.
Martin is skirting around the points and at one point he essentially said well god didn't mean to say that what he meant to say was.....
I diligently defended the Bible for thirty years as an Evangelical. It eventually wore my faith down to the point that it collapsed. As such, am I truly thankful for the Bible, it saved me from continuing to be an Evangelical.
To anyone who earnestly thinks the Bible is the infallible word of God as I once did, I have a simple challenge: Read the whole thing through over the course of a few months (30 minutes a day, it’s not that hard) and while you are doing that, truly ask yourself a simple question... Does this make more sense as the message of the all powerful, all loving creator of the universe to all human beings or as the work of one group of ancient human beings writing about what they call God as they try and understand the world and their place in it?
The earliest Christians didn’t take the view of inspiration that fundamental Protestants do. Their view is much more like Muslims have regarding their scriptures. The Eastern Orthodox view of the scriptures maintains the view of the early Christians in my opinion.
@@TheOnlyStonemason The hermeneutics of the Eastern Fathers and Mother’s became very important to me as I grew in my faith journey. However, I would note that neither they or the modern Orthodox Church have seriously grappled with or responded to the violence or sexism in the text and tradition. Using an allegorical lense dosent help much if you also have a patriarchal bent.
I would say it is the Mainline/liberal Protestant tradition that has done the most honest reflection on the text and church tradition.
@@CB-fb5mi , actually Eastern Orthodox see everything through the lens of the revelation of God in and as the person of Jesus Christ. Best wishes to you.
Did you know the current (and only extant) Hebrew text used for all Jewish Bibles, Roman Catholic Bibles (since the Middle Ages), and Protestant/Evangelical Bibles is a revised text which those [John 8:44] scribes falsified and mutilated is a HUGE reason why many readers think that the biblical God is a “malevolent, misogynistic, sadomasochistic bully.” And, due to the extensive sabotage done to the wisdom teachings, Job, and the text’s intelligibility, many readers decide it’s uninspired and are repulsed by it; and most Christians avoid reading the Old Testament.
The true Semitic text, as found in the Peoples Bible/(which also happened to be the Apostles Bible thus) the Christians Bible, has been preserved in uninterrupted use by the Eastern Orthodox Church and there are decent English translations of it (except for one abbreviated as the NETS version which is a complete fraud based on the current Hebrew text via the NRSV.)
The Peoples Bible/the Apostles Bible/Christians Bible is referred to by Academia as "the Septuagint" and "LXX" [ = “the Seventy" and "70" short for the Greek translation of the Seventy-two interpreters (which was sanctioned and made in the 3rd century BC; and it was cordially and permanently received)].
I have compared over half the Scripture and meditated on many of verses that were messed-with. And so, I see what a “boo-bam” those “sages” did and I like to try to help people by providing a time-saving chart which I produced and honed/polished over 4 years’ time. It incorporates some verses from the “Dead Sea scrolls” and gives crucial info on the so-called Great Isaiah Scroll being flaunted by scholars propping (up) the Masoretic Text/Hebrew text. And the chart ends with good info on what’s available to buy or use online/PDFs in the way of Septuagints and study tools.
email me, ask for the chart, and you'll receive just one email back with the chart as a PDF in the email’s attachment: hilohouserepairs @ gmail . com. Thanks. God bless you. Glory to God.
@Desire Of All Nations Your testimony is very good. The Septuagint OT is more faithful in it's renderings and more intelligible in it's sense. I know this and can share massive proof in a PDF of a chart I made of verses for comparison from searching and comparing the Scriptures for several years. Just ask : hilohouserepairs at gmail dot com
God Bless.
It is sad (and even pathetic) to see believers rationalizing in such a way. - To justify the immoralities of the bible is immoral in itself.
yes, and these immoral people need to be re-educated or we must end their existence as not to befoul the purity in the rest of us, right?
@Sombre Cynic cynicism is not wasted on you, is it sunshine?
@Pisstake no
@@silalumen643 Yes, you said it.
@@Elaphe472 Yes, I understand that weak people who cannot
tolerate other viewpoints, have a need to systematically degrade, but much rather eliminate those other viewpoints.
Thankfully, in modern day, those weak fools will never attain the position of power to do so.
Interesting fyi for anyone interested in the history of Christianity. I believe it was a sect called the cathars that believed the God of the new testament was a completely different God than that of the old. The viewed the God of the old testament as an evil God, and Jesus with the God of the new testament came to defeat him.
Unfortunately the cathars were and their ideas were wiped out for being "heretical", but there is still some info out there for anyone interested.
And they were likely not the only ones, either, considering Gnosticism and further, @Eugene Coleman .
Like many Gnostic style groups, the Cathars were kind of messed up about embodiment and sensuality/sexuality, though.
Sounds like Marcionism
@@djfrank68 idk much about marcian or his writings, but I'm pretty sure there were a few early christian sects that had this dualistic view. It's an interesting take on the bible and and interesting way to reconcile the new and old testament. I find this topic pretty interesting.
what i hear here is apologetic wriggling of the likes that i doubt anyone back when it was written were capable of. having said that i think he did just about the best job i’ve heard of defending it.
When ex clergy say "How did I miss that reading the Bible...?" You missed that because you were indoctrinated not educated
You're not educated you're brainwashed yourself
True, princess! And because of the current (and only extant) Hebrew text used for all Jewish Bibles, Roman Catholic Bibles (since the Middle Ages), and Protestant/Evangelical Bibles is a revised text which those [John 8:44] scribes falsified and mutilated is a HUGE reason why many readers think that the biblical God is a “malevolent, misogynistic, sadomasochistic bully.” And, due to the extensive sabotage done to the wisdom teachings, Job, and the text’s intelligibility, many readers decide it’s uninspired and are repulsed by it; and most Christians avoid reading the Old Testament.
The true Semitic text, as found in the Peoples Bible/(which also happened to be the Apostles Bible thus) the Christians Bible, has been preserved in uninterrupted use by the Eastern Orthodox Church and there are decent English translations of it (except for one abbreviated as the NETS version which is a complete fraud based on the current Hebrew text via the NRSV.)
The Peoples Bible/the Apostles Bible/Christians Bible is referred to by Academia as "the Septuagint" and "LXX" [ = “the Seventy" and "70" short for the Greek translation of the Seventy-two interpreters (which was sanctioned and made in the 3rd century BC; and it was cordially and permanently received)].
I have compared over half the Scripture and meditated on many of verses that were messed-with. And so, I see what a “boo-bam” those “sages” did and I like to try to help people by providing a time-saving chart which I produced and honed/polished over 4 years’ time. It incorporates some verses from the “Dead Sea scrolls” and gives crucial info on the so-called Great Isaiah Scroll being flaunted by scholars propping (up) the Masoretic Text/Hebrew text. And the chart ends with good info on what’s available to buy or use online/PDFs in the way of Septuagints and study tools.
email me, ask for the chart, and you'll receive just one email back with the chart as a PDF in the email’s attachment: hilohouserepairs @ gmail . com. Thanks. God bless you. Glory to God.
@@TedBruckner Well, why would God WISH such sabotaged to be enacted?
And please do not invoke 'free will' as the get out clause for everything, if possible. There must be more to it.
most IGNORED IT.
what a lunacy - to judge God treating ancient peoples through today's legislation and modern European ethics that have but little to do with Christianity nowadays .)
So why bother worshipping that god?
@@rovert46 certainly: wood for hell is to be supplied
@@humbleman7196 wood in hell?!
@@rovert46 yeah, to keep the fire..)
This Martin does not respond directly to Dan's allegations vs God. He cannot respond directly because Dan quote from the bible. So, as a usual tactic of of apologists, Martin talks about the birds and the bees in defense of his god in attempt to muddle the subject of the discussion.
Mr Kuhrt, do you have any physical evidence for a physical JC?
I don’t know whether Dan is serious or just pretending that he doesn’t understand imagery or figures of speech in literature...
Well said by Martin.. If Dan and Dawkins truly believe that Bible will lead people to become atheists.. Please donate to Bible society...
Of course Dan understands that. When it comes to the character of the deity described in the bible and its actions you can't get away with calling it figure of speech. That's either really stupid or just dishonest.
@@samael5782 Nobody is getting away...
Dan agrees that there is no endorsing but descriptive... Also the skirt part- Dan agree it’s a warning..
So all his terms he gave to God are based on descriptive and warning stuff... which is nothing related to nature of God..
I can warn you with my utmost harsh words so that you won’t get hurt.. but that doesn’t make me a terrible person.. Don’t you get it??? Hope Dan has some common sense to understand such silly stuffs ...
my goodness, this discussion is absurd. The book of Job is a story, manufactured by people! yes, you can discuss any fictional story and maybe learn a lesson from it, but it is still a fictional story. Why do we not discuss the lessons learned from Harry Potter?
If this story is true, then it reflects terribly on any god, that claims to be loving.
the whole creation story is also totally absurd, totally debunked.
We are not "lost" and no-one needs a "savior" Get over it
Actually, the letter B used to represent the home because the smaller hump was where the wives and slaves slept and the big hump was where the man slept. So, yes, the ancient past was pretty misogynistic.
Cool, any other made-up facts you care to share?
The blood of my ancestors tell more truth than the good book. Believers are bullies that made bully gods to justify their horrific ideology and deeds.