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You might have a good argument but I cringed so hard in the first 20 seconds stop talking like a high schooler after they take their first philosophy class.
It's the first paragraph of Henry David Thoreau's essay "Walking" spoofed with some Yu-Gi-Oh language, it was meant as a joke.
You’re cringe
@@QuestLogFaker Yes that is why I called it cringe and referenced philosophy, congratulations for understanding my comment. I'm just saying it wasn't funny and omega cringe.
I liked it
Living proof that YGO players don't read
One thing I never understand is when people suggest set rotation would "balance" yugioh. As if going to set rotation would make Konami develop weaker cardboard and balance their archetypes any differently. In my eyes, Kash or Splight or Tear or any of the other broken archetypes would not have been any different had we had set rotation and tbh may even last longer unless we ALSO have a banlist to go with set rotation (which imo defeats the purpose of having set rotation). Konami will always want to make new, cooler archetypes to get people to buy their products - set rotation wouldn't stop that and its a fool's hope to think otherwise. People that suggest this seem to forget every single other card game with set rotation has the exact same issue as Yugioh has right now. It's legitimately not any different. Yugioh just has more defined archetypes and a focus on legacy support that other games don't IMO.
I also think there's this perspective that power and complexity = bad and I just don't like that perspective. Every MTG player I've brought to the game loves how quickly and powerfully you can get into your plays, I know it's just an anecdote but it informs my perspective.
yeah and another thing to note is that set rotation didn't stop pokemon tcg from having power creep
so it definitely wouldn't stop konami from continuing yugioh's power creep
set rotation would also probably be verry imparsial in the way they introduce older decks in the format, i hope you like dark magician and blue eyes cus the second they cut the new stuff that's the first archetypes that will be tier 1 and that will be receiving supports over the years.
When decks are like 300 bucks, the idea that your deck, meta or not, is just in time out because dad said so sounds like an idea that would turn more people away from the game than into the game.
Amen, prices rise and fall for a number of reasons in Yu-Gi-Oh, but it's almost never because you just can't play any of your cards anymore.
This is the kind of perspective Yugioh needs. The fact that you pointed out that this game is a hobby you invest in and that's the core of Card Games is just something you don't hear from the big names.
I think it's partly our fault, I'm sure the incentive structure for the big names is always agree with their meal tickets (their words not mine) and telling budget player subscribers that it's okay that the new card was printed as a secret rare because that's how products are sold and your game perpetuated is crazy unpopular. We kinda create the representation we want to see.
Either way I appreciate ya, I got into Yu-Gi-Oh again back in 2018 with Dzeeff's video essays and would like to do a few when the inspiration strikes me.
And you dont know that games with set rotation have formats that dont use it
Magic has standard wich uses set rotation
But several formats that dont where you can just play almost every card like vintage, modern and pioneer
As well as dedicated casual formats like comander
And even a competitive format using only common cards to make decks cheap and acessible
I think one of the major reasons why rotation was brought up because many people in the community feel that Yugioh now is to expensive to play to a certain degree but I possibly can be wrong
@@studi3249 games with rotation are as expensive, having rotation or not doesent rly fix prices, standard in mtg is as expensive as competitive ygo
There are games with rotation that are much cheapet like pokemon, and games without rotation that are cheap like digimon, the determining factors is stuff like reprint policies, ammount of rarities and rare cards in boosters/boxes etc
Card games with rotation just have to be designed differently from games without, with things like always reprinting or revamping staples, and the designers dont need to be worried about a 10yo card breaking the meta
In an archetypal game like ygo it can be rly hard to do, but often they introduce new support that just rotates the old support out from beeing played in decks (cyberdarks), and banlists and new sets hit so hard thst every year/2 years the meta is completely different just like rotation
Why alot of peoplr that play ygo are afraid of rotation is cus they fear they wont be able to play all theyr old cards, but as iv discussed previously, there are always alternative formats, and it wouldnt rly impact how meta rotates
i wanted to get back into the pokemon tcg after years of leaving it behind as a kid but the set rotation really pushed me away from it- I play games for my favorites and learning i couldn’t play with my old favorite cards just didn’t sit right with me at all
this was also around the same time where i got into yugioh and was completely blown away with the open format! even with my favorite cards/archetypes being complete dogshit it didn’t stop me from building niche fun decks around them
I own a Metagross GX and Turtonator deck from my time in competitive Pokemon and would love to play at locals but they've both long since been rotated out. When I first got back to Yu-Gi-Oh I brought my three copies of the Shaddoll structure, normal summon Mathemagician send Hedgehog, awful stuff, but I could play it and modified it and that was huge.
Pokemon TCG and MTG both have a format, Expanded and Modern. Which basically mean you can play any cards in existence. I personally enjoy Set rotation and the style of play it offers for the Pokemon TCG but a Modern format or "Open Format" is best in games such as YuGiOh and MTG to an extent. It is just how you implement the format. Rotation is just a way to keep the card economy to be stable with prices and availability of cards if reprints are in the sets that are legal.
@@DarkshiftGaming Who are you finding to play expanded pokemon though if you can even find a local that hosts pokemon in the first place.
Honestly same with Magic, all I ever see from those people is just damn Commander
@@snakevenom56 complaining everything is commander is like complaining that yugioh doesnt support time wizard formats or rush duels. Commander is the most popular way to play the game and as such is what the company has embraced for its releases. Do I think this is good? no I personally would like wotc to return to mainly supporting standard and to a lessor extent modern and this is coming from someone who mostly plays Commander.
@@snakevenom56 Damn its almost like people like a variety of formats and that some of them aren't always as popular as the others. weird huh.
This IS technically a re-upload, I accidently uploaded the incorrect and poorly edited version of this video! I hope that you guys enjoy, it took quite a lot of effort to make, let me know what you think.
Also! The intro is a bit of a spoof of Henry David Thoreau's famous essay "Walking" I don't usually talk like that.
Dude the editing on this is fantastic and the script is great
I consider this video a big leap forward in my editing ability and I appreciate that.
it took me around 30 min to play Pokemon for the first time before i knew exactly what i was doing, and was playing meta and off meta decks competently. I was playing YuGiOh on and off since 2008 and i still have no idea what Tearlaments do.
A few things to note (i'm personally against set rotation, but I feel like a few major arguments were either misrepresented or missed during this video):
1) There would still be non-set rotation formats for those wanting to play their favorite archetypes, and it wouldnt affect casual players playing at friends' homes and shit since they'd just bring what they own. People like MBT are strictly talking about introducing an additional rotated format along side the eternal format.
2) I have a brother who's just as much of a card game nerd as me, and he simply can't get over the hurdle of how difficult to parse Yugioh cards can be to read. One of the many benefits of Magic's card text design is its many uses of shorthand, which Yugioh doesnt implement. While this does allow Yuguoh cards to have much more design flexibility, it does mean that a person simply can't easily pick up a deck and learn it as they play without the aid of an emulator or a friend. I can promise you that I (someone with no Pokémon experience) could pick up a deck product, look over the rules packed with the product, and then figure out how to play the deck as I go.
This point really doesn't have much to do with being for or against set rotation, but more that including it in this discussion is irrelevant. At most, you could say that a format would be easier to participate in with a smaller card pool, which is something that I do agree with.
3) The argument regarding "group think" is only really true to a certain degree. Like, if we're talking about what is or isnt considered meta for example, its always traditionally been done by observing tournament top 32 cuts. While I think there's flaws to this outlook of the game when it comes to deciding to rep a certain deck, it does give an objective outlook of the competitive landscape and gives assistance in what deck would be a good choice to take to an event since match-up spreads are always a factor. So that would be an example of "group think" with a lot of supporting argumentation and evidence backing it up.
My main point is that many of the arguments I hear surrounding Set Rotation are regarding complexity and ease of access. I may have not made that distinction as well as I could have but I definitely didn't expect this level of attention to the vid for a channel my size. Like I've said I think it's about what you want from the game, either way I definitely appreciate your input, I may address this topic again in a later, longer video considering some of the great arguments that have been left in the comments.
Excellent video, excellent points. Very well made !!!
Wow, you have no idea how much that means to me coming from you, I might pin this above my computer. I honestly didn't think anyone would see the video, and am heavily considering doing a follow up with user comments because I feel I missed some good points on both side. Again, thank you so much.
Talks about rotating out cards is probably just a result of the banlist standards that Yugioh has needing a rework. The F&L list's structure is old as dirt, and the logic of how its been handled has always been catered to competitive players rather than more casual ones. There are a few points to be made here.
It only hits cards if they are a clear and present problem for the health of the meta (and only after they've passed their active selling time) for one. They err on the side of decks being too strong versus too weak. Think of it like this: if your favorite archetype is something like Solfachord, the deck will never be made sufficiently strong to compete with the most common decks as a result of a banlist shakeup, the only thing you could hope for is some new wave of broken support. Because Konami has been fairly passive and reactive with how they decide to hit cards, it's contributed to a steeper ramp-up of the game's power creep.
There's also that the banlist only has "Forbidden, Limited, and Semi-Limited" as categories which was no problem when they were dealing with a game that was "goodstuff.dek" way back when the F&L list was first implemented but it isn't as well fit to the current game.
This is how you get things like, "We need to hit EVERY Tearlament monster as well as EVERY Ishizu monster just to stop this deck." Bushiroad games I've glanced towards have a lot more of a flexible set of restrictions (having some cards that aren't hit at all but you can't have specific pairs in your deck) including some that get hard-wired into the game's rules (such as Vanguard's "You can only have 4 Heal Triggers").
A somewhat unique issue in the banlist to Yugioh is how despite the Extra Deck being the most vital part of MOST strategies, there is not any effective way of restricting it. Honestly it is kinda odd how Konami made the banlist restrictions during DM era when the Fusion Deck wasn't even a relevant gameplay mechanic and they haven't revised them since, even after the Extra Deck became one of the most important things in the game.
There are so many ED monsters that are obviously and clearly broken but that can't be hit because they aren't so overwhelming that they're worthy of a ban and limiting them to 1 does literally nothing since most EDs only run 1 of each monster anyway. Cards like Baronne, Accesscode, Mirrorjade or Bagooska. There is probably a not insignificant amount of balance that could be achieved if the ED had its F&L list function under a different standard such as the "Duel Links style".
A shakeup of how the banlist works, rethinking how it should function with the way the game has evolved, would probably do way more to balance the game than rotating cards out would. If push comes to shove, having the ability to support an alternate format with a different banlist ethos that appealed to a different segment of the fan base. There is the "Heart of the Underdog" alt format they marketed, but make it more official (the format was pitched with "just let the store owner decide the banlist idk") and give it a name that sounds less like it's a gimmick format for people who are bored at locals and more like a new mainline gameplay style, like Magic's Commander format.
Appreciate the thought, I do agree that the banlist could use some tuning, but I also don't think that the purpose of hitting cards should be to take decks out of rotation. Too often I think the cries for crucifixion lists are unwarranted, and taking a deck from over centralizing to reasonable should be the goal, not rendering it unplayable. Sometimes we're just out for blood. I couldn't disagree more with the extra deck point and that might warrant a video in the future. I don't know that Yu-Gi-Oh is as staple dependent as Duel Links so I'm not sure that approach to the banlist in the TCG would be as effective, but it's definitely an interesting thought.
@@QuestLogFaker I mean that if there were more options on how Konami could tweak the banlist beyond just "Forbidden, Limited, Semi-Limited" that it could limit some overpowered strategies without making the decks completely unplayable. If they just said, "You can't use Ishizu cards and Tearlaments in the same deck" then they probably wouldn't have needed to completely gut both archetypes.
There are many instances where a card gets hit for basically a single interaction that Konami missed and it hurts people who actually play the strategy in its own archetype. Cyber Angel Benten is a recent example, being hit for how she interacted with Drytron (which was itself only a problem because of how it also interacted with Herald) while actual Cyber Angel decks were not particularly strong.
The Extra deck point isn't necessarily one that speaks about the overall necessity of restricting cards because the limited space certainly does help with it but it does help with some of the issues the game has with sticking in that more often than not, especially in certain summoning types, the end boards are so homogenized because of the Extra Deck. It makes it really boring when it's like, "Here's a new Synchro archetype, now you can make Baronne in a slightly different way." or when every deck using Links reaches a point where they just abandon their built-in strategy and say, "Guess it's time to punch with Accesscode for game." Or how even if the deck isn't an Xyz deck, if it CAN make ANY Xyz monster it might throw in a Zeus package just because (and with the new T-PHON there's certain to be everyone throwing it into every deck because you can slap it on top of any monster for free).
The reason Electrumite got banned in the TCG was because the designers found it not healthy to make EVERY Pendulum deck play the same. That's just the logic I'd apply with other mechanics, just try and find a way to do it without needing to outright ban every good generic ED monster. Doing a "Pick one of these" isn't necessarily the best solution but it would be an easy one.
Great video. I also think it is worth pointing out that through banlist and power creep, the game does have de facto set rotation. Top decks change constantly, and the longest lasting top decks only last 3-5 years at maximum. At a casual level, though, lack of set rotation makes it easy to get back into the game after years of not playing, because most cards are still legal even if they aren't meta relevant.
Very true, I have a video coming out Tuesday addressing power creep and rotation as it wasn't a part of my point here but yeah you're right.
However, this de facto set rotation still technically lets people play what they want and - more importantly - allows for old cards to find unforseen use in modern formats.
Finding such niche techs is part of what makes this game fun and I wouldn't want to miss it.
There's also the phenomenon that some obscure decks that are usually a couple of years old sometimes just top events out of nowhere (such as Madolche, or Fluffal).
This too is only possible in one big format.
A good or bad set rotation is basically just multiple good or bad banlists. And if you don't trust Konami now for good banlists, then why would you trust them for good set rotations. They will simply use it to make even more money off of addicts who must buy the best stuff for multiple "ban lists".
Couldn't agree more, it's a bit of a cynical interpretation but still something you have to worry about.
Cards would get scalped tenfold every time a new rotation is revealed
There's a reason MTG is so expensive
Well WoTC also don’t allow reprints of the investment cards
I kind of want rotation. Honestly as someone who played MTG most people ignore it, and I can't see it ever being the only Yu-Gi-Oh! format. So, it won't hurt your pet deck because most people don't play standard in my experience or if they do, they often also often have causal or what would now be Advanced format or free-for-all decks. What it would do is extend the competitive viability of decks. If it is like old MTG standard before modern MTG card design. You might get 7 cards or an archetype a year that are good enough for advanced. I think that could be a cristism if you power down the cards you would make the current meta last longer. Also, you can tell they need something like this because every time they try to make a new player experience they just end up making a new game anyways Duel links, Speed Duel, Rush. Also, more cards being added in packs if you add would fix the archetype problem and even by adding lets say 3 cards to pack at the cost of 25cents per pack. Yugioh doesn't have to build for draft so they can put any dog crap card in a pack.
I found myself agreeing more with the point of how once big name channels establish an opinion, their followers just accept it like a cult. Providing any counter narrative is hard in this space when a) they see it as a personal attack and b) they can use your criticisms to fuel content for their streams.
That's why you use their content to fuel responses and grow your channel. That's the point of a dialogue
@four-en-tee I consider a healthy dialogue one that is like a podcast format. Two people with some give and take, back and forth, point and counterpoint and however the audience feels is based on the conversation. In this space, that is few and far between, unless they are already friends first. It's mostly just sniping at each other for clout from the comfort of their own streams. Every video gets a reaction and then a reaction to the reaction and so on until someone gives up. It's not only childish, but it keeps the community insular and incapable of growth because even the people with the biggest followings can't set an example of conflict resolution among adults.
I honestly agree with this take because Yugioh is a game that has so developed itself into archetypes that you cannot implement it without making a good portion of the userbase unhappy. Set Rotation works in other card games because the strategies and Deck Themes of other card games are generic enough to where they will always exist to some capacity even when rotated out. In Yugioh however, many Deck Themes come with unique flavors, strategies and playstyles to the point that archetypes are drastically different from each other (even the ones that synergize with other Deck Themes). At that point, it does more harm than good to rotate Decks that are somebody's favorite out of the game for other Decks that they may not like that are available. It risks alienating players for the sake of introducing supposed balance into the game.
And (in my opinion) ultimately failing anyway because the supposed balance is gonna end up wonky anyway. It's a net loss all around
I personnaly like the decks that just have weird af gimmicks.
Magic the Gathering’s success proves archetypes and set rotation aren’t incompatible.
This video needs to be spreaded to MBT and the community, this truly is an amazing point to me- an old yugioh lovers that doesnt care 1 bit about meta being broken and just want to play with my Red Dragon Resonator deck (new SD coming). Why don't people see that old archetypes getting new support is bringing more player back to the game? They urge to fix some current OP mechanics by seperating them from old cards and ruin what makes yugioh unique... just fix the gameplay not the game itself!! I don't have answer but "Dark Ruler" cards alike are a right way to go for me..
It makes me think about all the "alternative format" takes, which is something I'm going to make a video on for sure, radical changes to the game for their own sake are not what Yu-Gi-Oh needs.
i do think the game needs to bring back spells and traps as a form of interaction rather then leaving it all up to monsters which is 1 of the reason why drnm, droplets and kaijus or kaiju-like cards is so effective at breaking boards or leading to broken boards though when i said bring back s/t as interactions i do not mean in the style of labyrnth
Although I can resonate with pretty much all your points I think everyone in the YGO community that doesn't actively interact with set rotating card games misses the biggest benefit of set rotation:
There. Are. No. Rules.
For how to do it.
Many of the "stigmas" people have about it have no reason to be, and to me they come from the fear of the unknown.
"You left out old archetypes in set rotation" you don't, as long as you have the means of preservation you can reprint them in the sets to make them legal again, retrain them, bring some pieces alongside new support or even release links between those old archetypes and new archetypes.
"Old staples don't work anymore" they continue to be as viable as they are of the core set centers around which ones are needed for the expected format, one format with have backrow they can reprint twin twisters in order to help, in recursive formats they can reprint cosmic cyclone. If anything set rotation makes viable many intresting cards that never saw any play, just for a quick one murmur of the forest becomes busted in a set rotation format around the toss archetypes as it shuts down both dingirsu and babel.
"It ruins the innovation of old techs to combat meta" although that's really valid the simple solution to that is konami doing their work and researching their card poll before putting out the core set, if they print old cards that maybe can work as tech cards its up to the players to test and confirm thats true, otherwise they just become pack filler and this is something that magic does to such extreme that really, really old cards from their very first sets are reprinted just in case they become the right tech a new format needs.
We as a community have stop seeing set rotation as a carbon copy of magic system piece by piece and think of it as a tool to allow experimentation, diversity and leverage of the dominant archetypes and a way to create new ways to play and bring new players, you're not obligated by any means to left out any archetype and by contrary you're encourage to try creating bizarre and inventive formats that catch everyones attention.
Someone who does an amazing job explaning why set rotation is not something like the plague that we should avoid at all cost is Khodok on his very first episode of The Seven Deadly Sins of TCGs, really recommend it.
I watched that Seven Deadly Sins video and marinated on it so I feel you there, I stand by my point that making changes to the ban list is a better solution to the problems the game faces instead of cutting out a large portion of the history of the game, and you're definitely right that it could take any form and could theoretically dodge many of these issues, but I don't want to go down that road to begin with.
@@QuestLogFaker Yap, I also think, we basically have something like indirect set rotation via the ban list - but without losing out of anything. When e.g. Tearlament was too good for too long, it basically got nerfed to the point that most people don't want to play it any more. But there are the one or two guys at local that still play Kashtira-Tearlament and I think, it is a wonderful thing that they can still play that, if they really want to, but had to get a little creative in order to do so.
You want Konami to be the ones to tell us what "experimentation" we're allowed to do? Really? The people who printed Kashtira Arisehart? By all means, let people come up with house rules, but don't put Konami in charge of this shit. Knowing them, they'll make you re-buy the same staples but with different names, over and over and over.
@@saitougin7210 that is literally not set rotation my guy, it's a banlist system with it's ups and downs.
The biggest virtue of a set rotating system is that no matter how degenerate or boring a format is, it will always go away.
As for what you call "indirect set rotation" we had no guarantee of that, it happened like what? 5 to 6 times in all Yu-Gi-Oh history, Rulers, Toss, TearZero for example
@@drewbabe you do have a point but then again, we already have retrains of pretty much every good staple, not to mention every archetype now days get either an MST, ROTA, Raigeki break, Solemn or Reborn, or all of them.
So is that really a big problem? Even so, if Konami does a horrendous work with set rotation the community can finally stop buying crappy TCG product on release and instead look for previous stuff to craft those new house rules and formats.
Even if Konami fails at doing so we get something to do about it, if they keep the same format and business model nothing will change, new comers will leave as soon as they see what Ash do, retro players will play Edison/GOAT only, and the meta will be defined by the absurd rarity bumps in sets for the dominant archetype.
I am happy with the way yugioh is right now. Is it perfect? Of course not. But I know for a fact that there is people like me out there, that have played a million card games and abandoned all of them but one. The one that does not have set rotation. The one that keeps releasing support for the cards and archetypes we played in the past. Why do we have to be like magic? We don't. I am one unimportant random person on the internet but I will say this: The day we become like hearthstone or magic when it comes to what is available to play, that's the day I will stop playing.
There are enough card games in the world that we don't all have to be like each other
Achieving the balance between incoming players and keeping old happy... Honest I'm speechless by how I missed something as simole as newcomers don't caring about Swordsoul being out of the rotation this month, but rather if they can archieve x or y boardstate with what's appealing for them... for us
It was very enjoyable, haven't watched / heard a similar format in ages.. I might not be a meta sheep, but haven't questioned what I'm comsuming on a weekly basis; thanks for the reminder, and hope you have a great day gentleman
I appreciate you, I grew up on Dzeeff and Rhystic Studies video essays formats and while my vids are obviously not there yet I hope to get there. Thanks for the feedback.
I mean swordsoul is a very fun deck that’s great to learn the game through anyway
What I LOVE about Yugioh that every card has the potential to be strong when it gets new support. I also don't like the fact that in other card games your old cards become nothing more than a paper. Yugioh also does that due to power creep, but you still can use them if you want.
And the existence of an open format means they can't just reprint compulse 1000 times but they need to fill up the set anyways, leading to some really interesting cards.
I can see the appeal, but I would rather be unable to play my favorite cards over trying to use them only to get absolutely destroyed because they simply got power crept off the map.
@@goldenpersonwhoexists8834 I'd say another angle to look at it from is that there is always that possibility that your old favorite cards/ archetypes become meta due to new support or a new archetype it pairs really well with and suddenly by utilizing your favorites you're the one who is destroying, it happened with blue eyes, cyber angels, and Umi just for a few examples, of course I will concede that my knowledge on yugioh's various past metas is rather small and thus can't say how common or uncommon such an occurrence is, but I still know it happens from time to time and thus shouldn't be entirely discounted as a possibility to consider.
@@EnergyBurst2I think that mindset kinda sounds too close to a gamblers cope for my own liking but I suppose so
I see what you mean, don't get me wrong. It's just that at the end ofthe day, Yu-gi-oh is a business product, and Konami is trying to make money. That means that for the most part, the only old archetypes that get support are either fan-favorites from the anime or ones that have been popular befre @@EnergyBurst2
I really have to disagree with the complexity of yugioh not being the issue. Picking up a card game like Magic or Pokemon is 100x easier than having to pick up Yugioh and is a MASSIVE turn off for new players. Reading a card in those games gives you a pretty good knowledge on what your opponent is trying to do or can do. Reading your opponents card in yugioh means next to nothing.
I really do think its just a matter of reading the cards explains the cards just like in every other game. While I'm not really aware of how easy or not the Pokemon TCG, I know MTG cards have simpler card text. but I don't think your average beginnier would know the difference between Blue Tinker, Paradoxical Outcome, or Doomsday decks without seening a wincon or combo piece. Which Yugioh more causal friend way of playing the game tho so I can agree with you a bit.
Also my guy, if I see my opponent is playing a (insert archetypal card name) then I'm gonna assume they are playing a (insert archetype) deck. Very few cards in ygo are truely generic with the expection of some removal and handtraps. Its not that hard to tell the difference
@@nyxboi427 YuGiOh has no key words which makes it even worse.
I dont think yugioh is too complicated, but i do think the higher quality competetive game is more important than the casual who is excited to add that new TG card to their 10 year old deck which he goes x-4 in locals with. Id rather have some casual collectors leave the game than not try a rotation that massivly benefits the games health overall. The only alternative would be to ban another 100-200 cards to perform anti powercreep which is way too much
I think that's why I try to avoid single factor analysis and look at the game from a distance as a whole. I think it depends on your opinion on power creep as a whole, pre-pote people complained the power level of the game had stagnated, I think it comes in waves.
Look, there are plenty of arguments to be made against set rotation. But many of the points you bring up here are just…wrong. Set rotation does not mean the death of old archetypes. Hell, it doesn’t even mean the death of the current format. Most card games that do set rotation ALSO do a non-rotating format, and no one is suggesting Yu-Gi-Oh! do a complete 180 to exclusively rotation. It’s effectively just another ban list. There’s no risk of losing players if it’s done properly, there is only the chance of drawing in new players.
Do you know how big the influx of new players was for masterduel and duel links when they first launched, solely because they were new formats? The people didn’t stick around, but that’s at least in part because those formats largely turned into what the TCG already is. But it shows people would be willing to engage with the game if the right format were presented to them.
You also worry about how current set design ethics would translate to a rotating format, when one of the core points of rotation is that the sets are designed differently from the ground up. It’s genuinely a different design philosophy, so it’s understandable that Yu-Gi-Oh! players don’t understand that but you have to recognize the bias here. Do I really think Konami would adequately change their design philosophy to do rotation successfully as an alt format? Not really. But that speaks to the designer, not the concept. It’s clear something has to change because otherwise the game will continue the spiral of power creep into the sun and loss of playerbase until it dies.
Lastly I really don’t understand why you think this is somehow the underdog opinion. The VAST majority of Yu-Gi-Oh!’s playerbase agrees with your points here, however misguided they may be. Do not confuse the larger platforms the yugitubers who have recently come out for the concept (of which that aren’t that many anyway) have for agreement amongst their audience.
this is an interesting video with some weird takes:
-group think isn't a yu-gi-oh thing, it's a humans thing, people like to be in the majority or be perceived as being in the majority, people can just be wrong and misvalue cards it's not just a "everyone says X is good therefore X must be good" people can be convinced by theoretical arguments that in practice don't work for one reason or another.(also I'm pretty sure that rotation is a minority position so it's weird as an exemple of group think but I haven't looked into that)
-the suggestion "have some archetypes in the core set" isn't about the player's personality, it's sometimes about anime bait but mostly having core ways of showcasing game mechanics. dark magician and blue eyes as DM era bait and a way to showcase fusion monsters as an example.
-the way that you talk about loosing players because their deck has rotated is reliant on 2 factors: 1) rotation being the only format supported and 2) their deck being playable in the current format. point 2 is arguable and people may enjoy going 0-200 in their locals with their dark magician deck so that may be a pass but point 1 is very much unsupported by the way rotation formats have been implemented in the past, usually there is both a rotating format and a open format with the support for them being the factor that defines their participation.
-legacy support has an weird history in ygo, sometimes you get a link 1 monster that solves all the problems with the archetype and becomes a massive choke point for the deck, sometimes you get a field spell that solves all the problems with the archetype that becomes a massive choke point for the deck, sometimes you get functionality a hole new archetype but with the name of the old archetype even if you play none of the old cards, and sometimes you get some cards that do help the archetype get a new life, but that almost never happens in a healthy way. some people would tell you that getting rid of legacy support is a feature of rotation, to me personally there is nothing wrong with bringing an archetype to the core set and making them legal or partially legal to have legacy support or, what would be easier, having legacy support be part of the cards being printed directly to the open format (you didn't forget the previous point about 2 formats right? I know this is getting long but that's gonna repeat at least once more)
-the exemple of f0 in ghostricks is a funny one because that's exactly the kind of unintended interaction that rotation is aiming to stifle: deck all about face down cards that instead only extra deck monsters are used as an engine to make a negate. I think you meant stuff like tour guide being used in decks like BA to get their engines going but that again is something that can be put in the core set no problem.
-the reprint thing is just kinda confusing to me, like rarity is an issue even now right? people complain about that even without rotation, no? they could just let you use your old cards if they are considered a legal card, that seems pretty obvious? the "multiple versions of monster reborn" thing is just weird, they are different cards? if Konami created a card that is exactly monster reborn as a way to make people buy a different card there would be riots but if it is monster reborn but you have to pay a cost to activate that's a mechanism of reducing the power level of the format aka one of the things people want from rotation.
-while old cards interacting with new ones is an interesting part of an open format but it really should be clear that it should be clear that, in the majority of cases, the old cards that see play because of new cards are complete nonsense. diablosis is one of the most annoying cards to ever grace this game and even without kash it probably shouldn't exist, even if it's really funny to deck someone out with it, it should be very clear that banishing cards face down form ED or main deck for free is a very uninteractive experience even if it wasn't all that good. toadly awsome is a soft opt omni negate, it was begging to be broken, even if it's not too poor of design by it self. even if arise and elf were broken and poorly designed, it doesn't innocent old cards with critical design flaws. that's without talking about the stupid floodgates.
-the game being too complex and the game being able to have a rulebook aren't mutually exclusive things, because the complexity of yu gi oh doesn't come from the rules, they come from the card interactions, just like chess is a crazy complex game with very simple rules. yu gi oh has rules more complex than chess, but not as complex as MTG, what is more complex in ygo is the cards.
-the question isn't "why are random people not entering ygo?", it's "why, despite having the second most recognizable name for random people, when people become card game players they don't play our card game?". just like pokemon, there is a good shot even your parents know have some idea of what is yu-gi-oh: "oh it's that cartoon with the boy with spike hair". the barrier to entry of modern ygo is definitely higher than other card games, even for people already familiar with card games. having a format that has a limited card pool is a way to simplify the game so we can introduce people in a easier form, just like edison is a good format to introduce people. (again, losing salad in the rotation format is only a problem to salad players if rotation is the only way to play the game, wich it probably wouldn't be).
In conclusion, this was a well put video and it is good to hear from people that think that we shouldn't have a rotating format at all even if I disagree. this video is a bit old and you may already have heard this points or have changed your mind on some aspects but I thought it was worth to say.
sorry if I misunderstood you and for the bad English, it's not my first language.
Wow I definitely appreciate the input. When I published this video I had less than 50 subs, and none of my videos got more than 20 views, so I didn't really expect anyone to watch it, I don't think I made my points as strong as I could have in this video, but definitely appreciate your input, thank you 🤙
Ive always thought set rotation would make an interesting alt format, kind of like an expanded version of a sealed product tournament.
I do agree as both a yugioh enjoyer and woodworker that people will invest in hobbies theyre interested in. The real issue that I've seen is that when people have questions about the game they get a lot of toxic answers from people online, so if we were truly worried about the new player experience as a community then we shoul address those issues first.
Great video though man, hope to see more in the future!
Thanks man I appreciate you, my friend group and I do a lot of sealed Yu-Gi-Oh and that has been a huge contributor to our love of the game, I'm working on a sealed cube of dinos with the new support from DUNE. I agree about the toxicity but you gotta take internet interactions with a grain of salt. At my card shop we're super inviting to new players.
@@QuestLogFaker I don't doubt that at all, you seem super welcoming. My problem has been getting people *to* the card shop in the first place; once they're there the comaraderie tends to keep em around....thus proving the internet will always pale in comparison to IRL time with some legit homies.
@@robertchitty3603 100% the amount of players I've gotten into a locals who have lamented how long they've spent on DB or sims due to fear of what it would be like once they showed up in person. Getting yelled at over misplays, rude people, most of that doesn't exist at most shops. Making time for these things as an adult is difficult but it's so worth it.
I enjoyed your perspective. I am actually all for rotation, because I think its necessary. Soon enough you will open with a can of cards they read either "I win" or "nope" and we will just count to see if the going first player opened more "Wins" than their opponent opened "Nopes". The eras of HAT and Edison are not decided on the coinflip and are very much superior games to what we have now. There is also no way to get back to that style of gameplay by adding cards to the game.
I think you make a good point on archetypes. Archetypes started out being stuff normal to other games such as reinforcement of the army, which wasn't a archetype card, but it helped a deck which was themed. If it rotated from the beginning I suspect this would be the type of design you would've seen. Archetypes are a band-aid on power creep. By keeping certain cards from working together Konami can control the game to an extent, in exchange for this we don't get as much room to design our own decks and limited yugioh is basically non-existent. But right now the community expects their archetypes and would be sad to see them minimized. We all myself included love some random archetype.
"Legacy support" is better in rotational games. When original strategy isn't power crept into oblivion, the archetype doesn't need to be completely resigned for the modern game. Pokemon always has some form of pikachu legal. Magic's planeswalkers are constantly being retrained/reprinted for the new format. If yugioh rotated its more likely that we'd see blue-eyes and dark magician in events than now, since their original strategies wouldn't have been invalidated.
I agree that rules wise yugioh is not more complex than magic. Magic just presents their game better to new players. Yugioh cards need more restrictions printed on them since they don't have costs and lack the space saving keywords. I think a new card layout might help fix a lot of this. Additionally magic's gameplay has a built in tutorial for your deck. Basically on your first turn you can only play a one mana spell, so the one mana spell in a new players hand screams "play me first". Then their opponent plays a one mana spell and the new player gets to process what that player just did. Yugioh doesn't have this kind of soft entry. As a magic first player I actually think letting you just go makes for a better more exciting game as long as over extending is likely to be punished.
I think its possible that the game is too far gone to rotate. But Rush Duel should 100% rotation.
Congratulations if you read all that.
That took a lot of consideration and I appreciate the thought and effort. I agree with what I think is your core concession, that Yu-Gi-Oh is too far gone to implement rotation at this point, and I think most of my arguments kind of center around that.
Archtypes have had too long to develop, we've released too many cards to tract what would become a "standard set" I'm not sure I'm as concerned about power creep as many people are, because I feel like it's kind of evening out. Power creep in the old days was pretty rough too, only there were less flavors of gaming winning card, but building back after a lost game state was pretty miserable without the recovery and board breaking options we have now. I actually think the power of the game is in an alright place (for now) but I agree it's a concern going forward.
Thanks for watching 🤙🤙🙏 like I said at the end I welcome disagreement, especially as well phrased as yours
"and we will just count to see if the going first player opened more "Wins" than their opponent"
"The eras of HAT and Edison are not decided on the coinflip"
but have you not seen where the current direction of the game is headed? Konami IS addressing the "going second" problem by including tools for a lot of the modern decks to be flexible going first or second, often playing 'turn 0.' We got our first taste with tear, where the mirror was most certainly not a die roll due to the ishizus, and now decks like Labrynth and Rescue Ace also have tools to setup and interact with the opponent before they've drawn a card for turn, without 'traditional' handtraps. And with less hard negates being built into archetypes like these, I think you should very much keep an eye on for how the game will carry on. Knock a few more problematic cards out of the format, and I don't think you'll be needing those retro formats to scratch that itch for some nice, interactive yugioh.
The thing is rotation wouldn't actually quickly take us back to a 2011-2014-esque YGO format because for the most part the issue with the meta being the way it is now is not unintended Card Interactions leading to broken combos as much as intentional power creep that did away with restrictions like "Except the turn this card is sent to the GY" on GY effects to allow for more flashy combos and increase interruption resilience. You could probably ban every single YGO card from before 2017 in the TCG right now, leaving us with a cardpool of around 3000 cards, and Kashtira would only have to swap like 5 cards and would absolutely still remain Tier 1 and would still play almost the exact same way it does now. Almost the same with Labrynth, and while Spright would be far more impacted, it is more of an exception among recent meta decks.
So, if you want 2014 Power Levels, you will absolutely have to butcher most archetypes released in the past 6 years, and especially in 2021-2022, anyway. There aren't more than 4 or 5 Kashtira cards that would ever be fair in a game with 2014 power levels. Same with Swordsoul, Spright, etc. And if in this quest to get YGO back to its more appealing gameplay, with more floaters and weaker Extra Deck interruptions, you end up having to ban far more modern cards than older cards, what is exactly the point of trying to pull off a "rotation" and banning stuff that was already bad in 2014 like Gladiator Beasts and Cloudians?
Why not just create a new YGO secondary format, besides Standard, Speed Duels and "Traditional" (implying Traditional has ever been treated as a real format) that is just at a 2014-2015-esque power level by default, and has some 500-600 banned cards?
The thing with Pokemon and MtG too is that their Sets tend to be 2.5-3 times larger than YGO Sets, so putting out legacy archetype support, and retrained staples, is far more common and easier to implement. If YGO is to have a Rotation Format, we'd also NEED a similar increase in output of cards to replace all the stuff that is rotating out and not make deckbuilding too shallow, and obviously the community wouldn't take kindly to rarity distributions being the same if there are 3 times more cards per set. The game's whole economy would need some drastic changes.
And I would argue that archetypes would actually demand an even greater increase in Set Sizes than what you see in Mtg/Pokemon. Because cards can't be as easily combined to play together, Deckbuilding in YGO would probably become far more shallow with even the same cardpool as the other major TCGs.
Mostly agree on your point on complexity. YGO isn't actually more complex than MtG in terms of rules. But in YGO you are expected to activate at least 5 card effects in your first turn unless you bricked and that makes it much harder for brand new players to keep up with experienced players.
@@abyssal113I agree with some of wat the above commenter said. And I agree with all of wat u said, except the complexity part. I disagree with both of u on the complexity of he big 3.
Pokémon is designed to be very simple basic base rules. There is very little rules beyond the base rules. It is a very straightforward and simple game. It is meant for children to learn. It can surely be enjoyed by all ages, but 8t is designed to make it fun and easy to learn for every1, even a 5yo.
MTG however is a much much more complex game. It has a very strong base rules that takes the mind of a 14yo to learn and be good at. And then there r the complex extreme case rules. Those complex rules r mighty complex but they come up very little, maybe 5% of games. And there is very little rules that bridge between the base rules and the complex 1s.
Yugioh on the other hand has equally as ez to learn but far more base rules than MTG. Yugioh doesn’t have as many complex rules as MTG. However yugioh has many rules that range between base rules and complex 1s. There is lots of granularity in the complexity in the rules of yugioh. And unlike MTG, 90% of yugioh rules r relevant in almost every modern game of yugioh. The base rules of yugioh and MTG r about the same in terms of ease of learning, however yugioh has more base rules to learn. And unless u rewind time and teach a newbie 2005 yugioh, and work them way up to modern day bit by bit, they r literally fucked. They can’t learn shit if u try to reach them with on the go learning with a modern game.
U can actually teach a person MTG by playing with them a game with competitively viable decks. U can’t do that with yugioh. U will be lucky to get thru just 1 game if u r teaching them how to play yugioh with competitively viable decks b4 they give up on yugioh altogether. All of Yugiohs rules r too concentrated into everyday games for new ppl to learn like they can in other TCGs.
@@snakevenom56 I think Konami has accepted the speed of the game. Post modern design is stuff like Bystials where your entire archetype is a hand trap or Labrynth as you mentioned.
This is really the only the place left for them to powercreep the game into. How do you make a deck that can turn 1 OTK/Lock out players faster? You could make it FTK, but nobody wants that. So instead post-modern decks are going combo before their first turn. I think there is a non-zero chance of yugioh having a good format in the future. But I don't think yugioh will never be as good as it was.
When every deck can OTK, holding back resources is always a mistake. You have to pull that trigger the first instance you get. In older formats if you set 5 backrow and get them feather dusted away, it was your fault for overextending. Maybe you should've only set two. In the modern day if you set 5 and get them feather dusted you still lost, but if you set only two you also lost. It actually leads to very swingy games which are more determined by opening hands.
Trap cards are also more fun than hand traps. Having the card placed face down telegraphing something, is actually a huge difference. The first clue you often get to the existence of a hand trap is when it is played against you. You weren't being greedy playing into Nibiru, if you didn't play that 5th summon you probably lose anyways. If you didn't call a bluff or anything. What happened was that the other player just happened to have the right card in their hand from their opening 5.
No, the game is too fast. And making it even fast isn't going to fix the core problems with the play patterns.
As someone who plays both Magic and Yugioh, I can't say I really agree with your assessment. The most basic issue I think is with formats. With Set Rotation, its not as though the rotation format or rather the "standard" format will still be the only way to play Yugioh. Like Magic Yugioh could easily maintain a "legacy" format identical to the current format which would of course include all the benefits you mentioned right down to creating sets specifically catered to legacy or standards with certain cards only legal in one format and not the other. I also don't agree on the matter of complexity. The popularity of retro formats like goat and edison show that there is much demand for formats that are more simpler. While goat and edison are fantastic, the issue is that by definition, the cardpools cannot change or update. To me, the appeal of set rotation is to have a constantly changing format that retains the gameplay style of older formats.
I don't know if Edison and goat are more popular because they're simpler, I think they're more popular because they're perceived as being more fair (something I also don't think is true but it's a perception) also you gotta keep in mind that Yu-Gi-Oh has been almost defined by it's single format compared with the other card games, and in a way I think it's helped set it apart.
In my head at least, it's the definition of simplicity. One format, one banlist, just play what's legal and what you want and let the chips fall where they may.
So have you found anyone to play Speed Duels with recently?
@@snakevenom56 I actually host speed duel sealed tournaments at my locals every few months, we get 20-30 participants and it's a blast. Each player gets one of the sealed decks from the sets and duels with that.
I agree on the points and literal set rotation is maybe not the best way, or need super delicate way of implementation. I just don't really agree on "complexity is not the issue" because I've seen some people just give up to keeps up.
with that said, an official, supported, and expanding alt format would be very appreciated (maybe worldwide rush duel)
I just worry about alt formats, maybe it's just a me thing but I personally don't like what Commander did to magic and how it split the playerbase and I want to avoid that.
@@QuestLogFaker well I too for now won't vouch alt format as in different game rule like standard magic to commander. The ideal would be still the same game, just with different cardpool, simpler cards if possible. It woule be nice bridge for "just learning the rule/how to play" and "this is how modern yugioh play", as I think this middle step is what really missing and challenging to get potential new player to stay
I'm in general not in favor of rotation. Its always struck me as a way to force continuous purchases in a way that there simply isnt in open format. Sure, i might get powercrept out of the game if I wont buy new cards, but I can still play my cards that ive had for years and i have sentimental attachments to, and every once in a while my 10+ year old D/D Monarch deck still strangles out a meta pick and its all the more satisfying for the fact they are old powercrept cards.
If they were going to introduce rotation like magic and pokemon does, there would need to be eternal formats with seperate ban lists like modern, pioneer, commander, etc. and at that point, just like in magic, I'd only play those eternal formats.
100% agree. Why design new cards when we can rerelease Twin Twisters because we rotated it out lmao. I got back into the game five years ago and used my Shaddoll Deck and got smashed but could still play and made adjustments from there.
I would argue that the game essentially already has a system of soft set rotation in how Konami designs new archetypes to powercreep old ones to churn product. I think I do essentially agree with you though, and I would actually like to see something of the opposite sort, allowing older decks to flourish and have staying power in a competitive setting, but this probably won't ever happen.
I think there is some merit to that idea that a limited selection of possible decks would make it more simple for a new player to just jump into the game and that since this is already closer to how the game actually functions anyways, it could be worth considering in some sense. I think having more options for equally balanced and powerful cards in a more complex game is better though, and if decks did get to last around and have more staying power, that would also make it easier in a way to get into the game as someone trying to learn it would be able to gradually learn and remember the different decks as they see them and won't have to learn a new meta completely each and every time they want to come back from taking a break from the game.
Great video and interesting pov. Love the new editing process, too!
Thank you very much :D
I really enjoyed the video and was glad to see Counter points towards set rotation. The concept of archetypes and legacy support really screws over set rotation. But, there is an interesting way to make the concepts of archetypes, legacy support, and set rotation work. It would work similar to how magic the Gathering handles different formats and how Master Duel handles Events. Basically, make different formats that are tied to Archetypes or themes, and release legacy support for those formats. Like, we could have a format that has archetypes that we're released during the GX Era, or a format that only has Machine and Dragon Monsters allowed. That would be the best way to have a sudo set rotation while having interesting formats.
I agree that could definitely work, but the most common argument towards set rotation is that it helps "simplify the game for new players" and I don't see how telling a new player "sorry that deck you built because you watched GX and loved Cyber Dragons isn't legal in this format" does that, you know?
@@QuestLogFaker They would just have to be informed that the Deck you love has other formats where they are legal. And if you want to try out a format where your Deck isn't legal has a similar enough Deck that you could try out. It's kinda like Magic's formats. You wouldn't expect that a Deck that is legal in Pauper, which only has cards that are printed at common, be able to function in a format like vintage, where only the most busted cards are banned.
I am working on a Yugioh League where each deck is required to be Mono-Type. Want to hear about it?
@@vincentsissom4180 Mono type like "warrior" or "zombie" good stuff or archtypes allowed? That's definitely interesting. Yeah lemme hear.
@@QuestLogFaker Basically, when you join the League, you get to choose a Type, and by dueling, you get points to Level Up, with each Level getting you an additional Type, more access to Custom Cards (yes the League has Custom Cards), and more benefits, like influencing the ban list, being a Leader or secondary Leader of a Type, and the ability to submit your own custom cards for the League.
@@vincentsissom4180 I would pay good money for an officially licenced game with that premise lmao, I like it.
Konami is printing more and more turn 0 cards.
Tearlements, bystials, labrynth.
That should combat the going second disadvantage.
And the solution for konami printing more powerful cards each set...is just don't print stronger cards...print cards that have similar power level to the current cards with different play styles. Simple.
Set rotation may keep the power level low for sure.. but is forcing the players to buy new sets because their deck got rotated out a good thing?
Wouldn’t some of the issues pointed out be resolved by having the main Master format (I think it’s called) alongside the rotating one? Also in that way they could have an additional deck builder’s set that introduces legacy support without it entering the rotating one.
The point of the video also fell kinda short in my opinion cause of the misunderstanding I believe of set rotator fans wanting to get rid of the Master Format whole sale which isn’t true.
I mean we kind of already have that, the people asking for rotation are asking for it to supplant the Master Format and to be the definitive format. If Konami really buckled down on like, Time Wizard or Rivalry of Warlords it wouldn't change people's opinions on the master format needing rotation in my opinion. I appreciate your input though.
I’m gonna be 100% honest, I actually prefer yugioh in part due to there *not* being set rotation. I like being able to play pet decks from years ago that have gotten recent synergy with a random set of cards is super cool. Decks like Thundrags, Ritual Blue Eyes, Infernoids, Kaijus (it’s actually pretty fun just never give your opponent Gam), etc are really cool and I guarantee most of the more fun decks would only be in very specific formats which I might not even enjoy
This is a really well explained and true, I think they could experiment with split formats have different lists for different events but I don’t see set rotation sitting well with yu gi oh players
While all of these arguments are genuinely great and well thought out, they come from a perspective that yugioh, in an effort to create set rotation, would replace the current format which includes every card ever printed. This is not the argument many set rotation speakers are trying to make, what we're looking for isn't a replacement of the current game, but rather a list of formats to coexist along side the current version of yugioh, and set rotation is just the most obvious format to create aside from historic formats. Set rotation is being pushed not because of any of these reasons, but simply because it's a new way to play the game. I personally really enjoy playing bad and janky decks, but it feels disheartening to lose every game just because the cards i like didn't receive the legacy support they needed to become meta relevant, and playing a ton of floodgates and handtraps to bridge that gap isn't fun either. Set rotation existing would only mean potential for those older, unsupported, or just generally bad strategies to potentially see the limelight, allowing the people who like those archetypes to have a place to enjoy them, even if only for a few sets. More formats just means more potential to explore and grow, and there's no reason to get rid of what we have for it.
I wanted to add, after saying all of this, that I do genuinely understand the points said in the video. I think the view of yugioh being a hobby that you need to invest into being the main reason behind its inability to pull in new players is absolutely spot on, and something that a lot of bigger names completely disregard, and the idea of preserving the core values yugioh has already cultivated by completely switching its main retaining method of printing legacy support is also correct, though viewing konami as some kind of evil overlord instead of viewing them as exactly what they are, which is a company built with the purpose of making money is a bit of a stretch.
I have for long played with a format idea on my mind that sticks to more "balanced" and sort-of anime-like duels. Archtype Format.
Archtype are the heart of the game, yet they are not recognized as a game element. I say screw that, make an official throughout list of archtypes. Then, each player has to select a key card and build their deck only with the archtypes listed on that single card+ non-archtype cards (like sangan).
For example, if you select "Stardust Trail" as your key card, then your cards can only be part of the Stardust, Warrior or Synchron archtypes, leaving out cards like Baronness or Crystal Wing.
This would reduce cases like Swordsoul-tenyi playing baronness, or most decks using predaplant verte anaconda to play D-Hero DPE.
I wish we'd see a video game built like this, something like the old Tag Duels
Sounds very interesting
Though I do have sone questions
First cards that basically are part of the archetype despite not technically being so (probably the most obvious combination is psy-frame omega bring an honourary zombie monster) would those have there own category similar to non-archetypes
Also another question how would archetypes with little support be interpreted (for example the new maxx C replacement in the OCG is technically an archetype but is the only card, also barronne has like 5 monsters not example hood fir making up a deck)
Also I don’t entirely see what the issue with barronne in swordsoul is unlike a lot of other archetypes barronne supliments there end boards but isn’t the main attraction
@@jmurray1110
1) On this set of rules, as they are inspired by the anime, cards like omega CAN'T be played outside their archtype. Think how odd it would be if in the anime, divine (the 5D's psychic villian) suddenly summoned Uni-Zombie just because it pairs well with his deck.
2) Archtypes that have a low card count can still benefit from the "evergreen non-archtype list", so you could technically run a "Fleur" deck complimenting its few cards with generic warrior or wind support
3) My problem with baronne in swordsoul, as the point of this "anime-like format", is that they are two different archtypes. It doesn't matter how well or poorly they play together, they just don't belong together.
I think this video missed some of the important points people who are in favor of set rotation like to make:
Set rotation doesn't have to mean that the current non-rotating format goes away. You could just have multiple formats side by side as long as they're supported enough. Also, a rotating format allows the speed of the game to be adjusted every now and then. The game is at a point where it's basically impossible to create a slow format without banning (and I am not kidding) hundreds if not thousands of cards. I know Yu-Gi-Oh! is a special case when it comes to power creep because Konami power creeps the game deliberately but not everyone enjoys the modern combo play style. Yes, new or returning players might get deterred from playing the game if they know their old cards will get rotated out but how many players get deterred because they remember old Yu-Gi-Oh! and then get turn 1 combo'd on during their first game against a real player on Master Duel? And again, people who want to play with every card still could if rotation was just implemented as a seperate new format.
The video was more about making my points why Set Rotation wouldn't work, than addressing arguments made by others. I also think that "slowing down the game" is not an intrinsic good, Yu-Gi-Oh hasn't really been slow since it's been good, and even when it was slower, board states would still reach a point where victory was assured. Achieving victory three turns before you kill is worse than killing on one turn, in my opinion.
I appreciate your input however, believe me I've been keeping up with the comments, and may make a follow up video at some point.
For starters, I do prefer slower YGO over current YGO, and I do think getting back to an Edison-like format would probably require over 1000 banned cards. That said, I still can't get behind the Rotation approach simply because:
1) It is not like Edison was the last tolerable point for YGO. TOSS probably pushes things a bit too much for most classic YGO fans, but it still had some Trap decks like Paleozoics being playable, and monsters still often did battle eachother. And getting back to something like it shouldn't take even 50 bans. So, maybe some approach that tried to make the game a bit like TOSS, but slightly weaker could work. Alternatively, many 2014-2015 Formats like HAT, Burning Abyss, and Clown are fairly popular, and still somewhat recognizable as classic YGO, and I think getting to them might only take around 500-600 or so bans. So why exactly ban some 8000-9000 cards through rotation?
2) Moreover, the issue in current YGO isn't really broken card interactions between old cards and new cards breaking the new stuff. Kashtira barely uses any old cards and would keep its playstyle even if you banned all cards from before 2020.
3) If the pretense is that we'll get back to a pre wombo-combo YGO (say circa 2014) in power levels for the "Rotating Format" and have 2 Tournament-supported formats, then the new Sets intended for the "Rotating Format" would have to be released to have circa 2014 power levels with little power creep. Which means the new cards would do nothing in an "Advanced Format" that has Kashtira still running around. So "Advanced" would just feel endlessly stagnant since all the strongest cards are already out. This was a huge problem for MtG's Modern for a long time, until recently when Wizards started power creeping the **** out of the format.
4) Realistically many archetypes from the last two or three years will never fit-in with archetypes of much lower power level without having their entire playstyles ripped apart, so we are probably not ever seeing some newer archetypes making it to the format.
5) YGO Product releases just aren't intended to fit in that well with rotation right now in term of set sizes and general design philosophy. We'd probably need Sets at least twice as big in order to provide needed staples for a format where older ones just go away after a while, and cards would require designs that are much more open so deckbuilding isnt too shallow, and predetermined, since possible deck combinations would be much smaller.
6) Konami has managed to drive away power creep for years through Massacre Ban Lists in the past, like the one that ended Goat Format.
Yeah I can't argue with your points. However I do think there is a complexity issue with Yugioh as there are way more linguistic issues. If you watch a competitive match, you have to know what each card in the deck does otherwise you're completely lost. Granted this can be applied to any card game like you said, yet with Yugioh since most meta cards are so text heavy and multi-effect driven, it's naturally harder to follow.
Like I mentioned I do think it's just an "inherent weakness of card games" issue, even the games like Hearthstone that do get watched, it's hard to say if it's the game that's the draw or just the visual spectacle. I've brought many friends into the game and they've all learned it in a week or two, because they were motivated to and wanted to. The game is definitely complicated and the reason it's complicated is power creep for sure, but I think it's just an issue of degrees.
I do think that the whole "this game is hard" issue is one that card games struggle with, especially considering the popularity of media that basically does it for you.
For me set rotation means I can't play as much because I enjoy somewhat old decks and trying out all the crazy options but I can't do that if you have it in the game
Couldn't agree more, I feel like you erase so much of your games history when you just rotate it out. Nobody talks about Pokemon historically like they do Yu-Gi-Oh and I think that's why.
Personally i believe Yugioh should stay the way it is, let us who enjoy the old and broke play this great game. And if people really want set rotation so badly, just play Magic or Pokemon.
I was actually gonna join MBT's set rotation format but agter seeing the card list and knowing some of my favorite decks (Steelswarms and S-Force) probably would never show up made me not wanna play it
I don't understand the obsession with wanting to "be like the other card games" not everything has to be the same lol.
@@QuestLogFaker yeah, and I have only seen it in the yugioh community for some reason. Like in the dragon ball super card game, I haven't seen anyone ask for it to be more line with things like magic and pokemon because they understand support will come out for older decks to bring them up or change their game plan
@@nathanvig4401 it's because yugioh players think their game is the best one but they're mad that it isn't the most popular. kinda like melee players being jealous of smash ultimate's view numbers. truth is, there's some validity to that-the other TCGs are kind of slow and boring and don't really feel like you're watching an over-the-top badass anime battle when you look at gameplay of them, and it is kind of weird that pokemon in particular is so popular, the game at its best is actually not even half as fun as YGO is in its worst formats. but like, people GOTTA let that be. MTG is going to be popular forever because it was the first to do it and it's been kept competent enough for its brand to stay strong. pokemon is going to be popular forever because it's fucking pokemon, i mean their video games are so busted and non-functional yet they're still best-sellers, that franchise will never die and there's no amount of ill will that can be caused by TPC that will get people to stop loving the franchise. every other popular card game is based on an external media franchise, yugioh's the only one that's become a card game first and a media franchise second unless you count cardfight vanguard but like who actually still plays that lmao. and those franchises' popularity will cause their respective card games to wax and wane in popularity accordingly. yugioh's just gotta let that be and keep doing its thing. the players have gotta stop being babies and start showing their appreciation for the game they play if they want anyone else to be interested.
Yugioh as a manga first not a card game but yes the cards became the main thing that everything warped around
@@jmurray1110 what's the current manga run?
i would love to have rotation as an extra format, but ABSOLUTLY NOT as a replacement to our current open format. the fact i get to still play phantom knights even tho they released like 8 years ago is soooo cool to me and makes me love yugioh.
Spectacular video with good points, and the jokes were on point.
I gotta work a little bit on my punchline delivery lmao, but I appreciate that more than ya know.
@@QuestLogFaker I especially loved the visual gags. Your choice of cards on screen were top notch.
One of my fears about Rotation is that I don’t trust Konami with Rotation. Do we really want to give THIS company the power to reprint 2 cards with different names that do the same thing in form of as an all-deck staple at high rarity? (For example: Pot of Greed is a Secret rare in Rotation 1, the Rotation 2 introduces “Container of craving” which says “Draw 2 Cards”. Pot of Greed isn’t legal in this format. And Container of Craving is also a secret rare. Container of Craving is as powerful as Pot of Greed and also a staple like Pot of Greed was in Rotation 1. But you still need to buy the same card AGAIN. And then Rotation 3 introduces a new Secret rare: Bucket of Cupidity. It’s just Pot of Greed Again.)
People neglect this point, despite the fact I mentioned it in the video. It incentives bad behavior. Reprint a card everyone owns and let them use their old versions, or print a new card with the same effect? Let's just not open that Pandora's box.
I've got a follow up to this dropping Tuesday that goes a bit more in depth.
Apologies for the long comment.
My perspective has always been that in a game with an increasing pool of content to get players to engage with the new content you either need to; a) formally remove the old content with something like rotation or b) informally remove the old content with something like power creep.
A ban list sits somewhere between the two as it's not a predictable as a regular rotation and not as flexible as your cards still being legal but now being bad. In digital games, balance adjustments would occupy a similar space; you can still use your platinum greatsword but it now does 12 damage with each swing rather than 20.
I suspect a player who likes blue eye might be similarly disappointed to hear that their archetype is nowhere near competitive at a locals as they would be to hear that it's not legal at their locals.
A player who doesn't care about being competitive will similarly not care about legality.
While formal rotation and informal rotation share many downsides I believe formal rotation has the advantage of minimising complexity. Power creep just inevitably involves writing a lot of words on the card.
One downside that formal rotation has that informal doesn't is that a player with a particular interest in one aesthetic (dragons, anime ladies, etc) might not be served by what's in the new rotation is something I believe could be relatively easily designed around. If there's a chunk of the playerbase that loves dragons just make sure some kind of dragons are in each rotation, same for particular types of gameplay patterns, types of art, etc. The color pie in mtg is a clear example of this, each color exists in every set and has a consistent similar identity. If you like black creepy Zombies last rotation maybe you'll like black Creepy vampires this rotation.
Tldr; I believe set rotation is the best option to solve the problems of an increasingly pool of content.
set rotation is definitely something of a red flag for me, maybe its because i was exposed to yugioh first before any other tcgs but i just dnt like the idea of set rotations purely because it effectively gives all cards an expiration date
knowing that the cards im playing now is gonna be dead given enough time not out of anything like viability or powercreep but simply because the official rules dictates that i cannot play them anymore outside of specifically playing older formats is a huge warning sign for me
even in the argument of simply being able to go back to an older format whenever i wnat to isnt gonna convince me because i cannot play those old cards against newer ones like i first started with gusto back in the early 2010s when i actually got into the game beyond "playground yugioh" and even now im perfectly fine knowing that while they arent competitively viable they can still steal wins in casual play in a wind synchro pile deck which is something that cannot happen with set rotation and who knows maybe in the future there would be new wind attributed archetype or support if not legacy support that brings this deck back in some capacity but set rotation would just kill this potential
Tear format Forever And Ever And Ever And Ever
I believe that a core set is actually very feasable, MBT has made a decent enough core set to create a new format that is playable.
Regarding core set as a limit to card desing, it can be considering that yugioh unlike hearthstone or shadowverse is too massive and many corners would have to be cut, however they can slowly reintroduce the cards through expansions and slow down the insane powercreep going on which got especially bad during 2020 or 2017, it seems like a massive investment at the beginning and it is, however it creates an environment in which many more strategies are viable and mechanics are available, technically currently we have hundreds of archetypes available for play, however only a very select few strategies are actually playable, a rotation would guarantee that eventually many strategies get to shine and if they are too weak to ever compete the support they receive is made along the power level of the expansion.
So MBT's core set was actually what inspired me to make this video saying it's a bad idea lol, I don't think it's very good at all, you just end up reverting back to battle traps being the name of the game, which isn't interesting in my opinion. I don't think you're ever going to get to a space where most of the game is competitively viable, and if you did I think you'd hate it, it would make preparing for tournaments impossible as you can't prepare for anything. I appreciate your input though.
@@QuestLogFaker The gameplay shown for many of the battles in the set rotation were actually quite interesting and it didn’t devolve into “we’re playing goat with extra steps”, we just need to stick to themes and be quick to balance like hearthstone, the problem with this and mbt’s approach is that it would be vey difficult to implement in paper, at least the legality of cards is something Konami has always been slow with, the problem with salamangreat being the best deck in mbt’s core set can be easily fixed by the community by just releasing a new list of limits but I doubt konami would be as quick to implement. In master duel it could be a different story however, you make a pack for the current expansion and keep the core set free and add a new rotation ranked, that should definitely spice things up.
@@josemarioperozofuenmayor3475 yeah I think you definitely could do that, I just don't think that resembles the game I love and am not really on board. You could make it work if you strong armed it enough though. Salad is the perfect deck imo, in terms of what it can do, extension, recovery. I think salad is great.
@@QuestLogFaker the deck is very fair, thats why people didn’t complain too much on mbt’s set rotation despite it clearly being the best deck and I think its fair to not like set rotation, however for me it seems like a good way to establish decent formats that aren’t necessarily time wizard that are somewhat accessible (make a core set product and a pack per expansion) without creating a lot of content. Its similar to speed duels but with higher ceiling and no weird rule changes.
Why not fixing the 2017-2020 cards instead of removing all loved archetypes like Gladiator Beast, Blackwing, Burning Abyss, Volcanic..? The new support for old archetypes are bringing people back to the game- MBT only saved Blue-eyes, Dark Magician... For me, update modern staples like "Dark Ruler No more" is amazing to the path of fixing 2017-20 scope-creeping cards era
I think set rotation wouldn't be the worst thing because of how Konami does and wants to sell reprints. The thing is that you could take advantage of it to have pools per year of playable cards just to avoid "unwanted interactions." That being said, that could also be a secondary format now that they killed speed duel, and run alongside the advanced format.
Very nice video that I enjoyed even if I don't agree with all of the points. Like you said, a lot of yugioh "discussions" these days just feel like apes jumping on bandwagons and rehashing old points all the time, so it's nice to hear something more thought out and not be condescending.
old points
1. In regards to old cards becoming meta techs, many would argue that most of these cards only see play due to them being incidental floodgates/pseudo floodgates against new decks and creating non games as a result (super ancient org vs branded). I don't disagree with the sentiment and would personally want floodgates gone, but I think there is more nuance in the discussion of "floodgates' place in rotation". Most rotation proponents just assume that floodgates will automatically rotate out of the format when Konami's track record shows an affinity to generic s/t floodgates and the possibility of constantly reprinting them. And if generic floodgates will remain a thing, I rather also have niche pseudo floodgates to help pad out matchups or in case Konami did an oopsie when making a new archetype.
2. Like you, I also find it hilarious how players talk about wanting a more "curated" and better designed experience out with set rotation yet turns around to call Konami's banlist decisions out of touch. Yes a lot of konami's decisions are questionable, but then why do you want a more curated experience from the company you think can't design for shit.
3. I do agree that "hobbies take investment" and that there are easier forms of entertainment (was in a chess club where everyone came for free food but most disappeared when the food did. And honestly, we didn't need those people) but I do think there are structural/inherit issues with modern yugioh's design that makes it harder for new players. I argue that the disparity between the game design's basic mechanics (NS, spell, trap, extra deck summoning, ...etc) and properly playing the game (hand traps, long combos, thesis length text on cards, ...etc) is the greatest in yugioh at a baseline, and this does create issues for new players trying to get into the game. Just because there are easier forms of entertainment doesn't mean Konami shouldn't design the game to improve the learning process and make it easier for new players (given our restrictions such as game identity). Now I agree that set rotation isn't the/an answer to this problem, but I don't want the above mentality to be used to sweep issues under the rug (even if you didn't imply it that way).
new points
1. One thing nobody mentioned in relation to set rotation is actually the tcg/ocg divide. Joshua Schidmt has a recent video (Joshua Schidmt vod channel, " The Return to the TCG" vod, I have a theory chapter) talking about the OCG designing decks with maxx c in mind and the tcg getting screwed because big combo decks don't have maxx c to check them and some midrange decks are just underwhelming because the benefit of playing around maxx c disappears. Now imagine much worse the divide would be if we also had set rotation.
Welp, I believe in refining ones opinion by taking the "good" parts to make your view more holistic while shaving the "bad" parts off of each new perspective. Was able to do that here so can't complain much.
About the OCG/TCG-"divide": Is it really a divide though? In Asia they play OCG. Everywhere else they play TCG. That means in any reagion of the world there is only one dominant format. (Only thing is that online in say Yu-Gi-Oh-Omega you could choose to play the other format. But there everyone seems to stick to the format they know well - shocking, I know.)
Also btw the "Maxx C keeping things in check"-argument never really worked. If a card is not a very specific floodgate (rivalry etc.), but just a very powerful staple card that every deck can play, then it doesn't keep the best decks in check. The best decks simply use it as well. So there goes that hope.
@saitougin7210 the problem I'm highlighting is that most cards come from the ocg and are designed with their environment (Maxx c) in mind, that's why the OCG allows their combo decks to be so balls to the wall (not saying its a good idea, just saying it's their idea).
If the tcg gets to design most of the cards/archetype that come into the tcg format, it would be much easier to implement set rotation without everything breaking. (it's not the only issue with set rotation, but it is a serious issue nobody talks about). So yes, in the context of set rotation and card design, it is a divide.
Regarding Maxx c, just watch the 15-20min chapter please? Josh does a good job going over the differences Maxx c has on card design and iirc includes examples likes vanquish Soul, rescue ace, and shs.
can confirm, i've played this game my whole life off and on. usually coming back when a past deck gets legacy support
I came back into the game with the Shaddoll structure deck
I will admit I am super hard on the other side, I think it NEEDS rotation. Just because a card rotates doesn't mean you cannot play it, mtg has modern for that exact reason. Put aside all the other reasons I would, but the biggest reason is I support rotation is its easier to dial back the power of the game if you balance the game around only recent cards. Additionally while many would say you can just play edison or goat, those formats will never evolve, they are stuck with the same card pool. Conversely if you add set rotation, but keep a modern format for yugioh you can grow both. And I will say whole heartedly the biggest advantage of a rotation is you can reverse power creep, yugioh is stuck in an arms race and we have more actions in a single turn modern day than entire games did in the original game. There is only so much more room to grow with the game as it is, unless we get a crucifixion ban list.
I definitely respect your perspective and might make a follow up to this video including some comments because I didn't expect this video to get the attention it did. I think a lot of people are focused on set rotation as an antidote to power creep, which was not my main focus of the video as I mentioned, so I might readdress that.
@@QuestLogFaker Definitely fair, I only bring it up myself as I have played mtg almost as long as I have yugioh, started mtg after, the multiple formats do a lot of good work for the game. People think that rotation means the cards are gone forever, when it really just rotates to a format that we have right now. Plus I dont think we would need as many staples as we do now, if they didnt have to account for the gigantic card pool.
@@XehnasI played heartstone way before yugioh and I'll say, I dont want rotation. Set rotation in heartstone is hot garbage, 2022 had an awful format after an awful format, first time set rotation occured in heartstone, it replaced best set in the game, curse of naxxramas.
Set rotation is a lazy way to fix the game, yugioh doesnt need to copy Magic and Heartstone.
@@idkdontask7142 I can respect the opinion but will never agree with it. I have played yugioh since the day it came out, and unfortunately bar an armageddon level ban list, there is no way to reset power level in the game as a whole. Everyone else seems to think that Edison and Goat formats are benefits to yugioh, and I couldnt disagree more, Imagine people being so annoyed or bored with your eternal format that they just decide to go back in time and pretend the banlist was at a certain point 10+ years ago because they aren't happy with the state of the current game. Yugioh is a 25 year old game, and as much as many people fear rotation from other experiences, it may be the only thing to actually make yugioh able to retain new players, because while yugioh doesn't shrink, it really doesnt grow either. See what just happened in the last year with the lack of any real convert players from master duel. And before I get any "I bet you play blue eyes", I am currently on Sword Soul and Branded Chimera so no, I do keep somewhat current with the game at almost all times.
@@Xehnas maybe they should just shrink the power creep by designing better cards lol.
Thing is yugioh players are hypocritical, i think they tried to reduce the power creep in the game this year with that 2 main sets that came out but players are whining at the fact that these sets dont make konami profit because a few stores stopped selling yugioh cards and so it means the game is over.
Also, rotation doesnt mean reducing power creep. Again look at heartstone, that game was power crept into oblivion despite having rotation.
As for Edison and Goat argument, I dont see it. If you like those formats but dont like modern yugioh then sure, but I dont think we should listen to people who inherently dont like the modern game. Goat format is an overrated clusterfuck of a format with only 1 good deck, ik people pretend there is 3 but all of them run the same staples and the chaos package, anything else is unplayable. We shouldnt listen to people who think that set sangan pass is good gameplay imo.
Utterly based and correct take. Yugioh would not be the same game with set rotation, and I happen to love the game as it is!
Set rotation is inevitable tough, because the cards power level can only get so high until you hit those user created cards whose effect is you win the duel. In Japan they already did it, they just called it Rush Duels. And Konami is banking hard on them.
If Yu-Gi-Oh ever became rush duels that would be the day I hang my hat on the coat rack lol. I think they're doing a good job of navigating power creep by introducing interesting restrictions or unique effects on cards, and I think archtypes will always be a solid way of keeping cards in check. Like I said I think that set rotation would do far more harm than good
@@QuestLogFaker I think is inevitable, I am a returning player from the original DM era, and what convinced me is that most relevant competitive card now days have a mechanic that let them play in your turn now (Tier, Lab, etc), that has turned off a lot of new players due the increased complexity. When in the first turn, your turn you see your opponent make a full board, and you can't attack, nor interrupt because you didn't draw any hand traps, that is going too far. Also most important is real expensive. Unless you play Master Duel then the game takes care of the complexity and cards can be obtained with Gems and crafting.
@@bruno17289 the game definitely isn't real expensive, not for new players, you can built a competent deck for $50 in nearly every instance and then slowly make additions to make it more competitive over time if you wish, paper play had never been cheaper and is on track to get even cheaper as the year goes on. Playing on your opponents turn has always been the game, flipping compulse or mirror force has always been in the game, and since both players can do it now, I think that's just the level of interaction the game exists at, it can be really engaging if you get in the right headspace.
Rush duels is a new game entirely it's not set rotation. It might reference old cards here and there but it is pretty much a new game with its own rules and cards
Gotta say, your closing statements showed SO much character and you got a sub at the beginning of the video, but now I'm logging into all my accounts to sub multiple times
Thank you very much, I really appreciate that. I was completely unprepared for the attention this video got so i'm going to possible take some of the best comments and work them into a follow up video that addresses a few of the points in greater detail.
@@QuestLogFaker that's a great idea! If you ever would like help/collab with ygo content I would love to join you on your journey
I think the primary issue with Yugioh in terms of power balance is that Yugioh has no resource system. Other games like Magic or Pokemon have some method of slowing down the speed of play by attaching a cost to playing certain types of cards.
Where some see issues, others see opportunities 😁 Yu-Gi-Ohs main resources are things like once per turns, navigating locks, and card economy. Which may be less effective to be sure, but Pokemon and MTG have both been betraying their resource systems in the name of power creep as well. Manaless cards, Pokemon that let you turbo out energy, I don't know that I agree it's a Yu-Gi-Oh issue but I appreciate the take.
I think the appeal of yugioh is that you can start at full power if you want.
I'm growing critical of the concept of packfiller. Sure, the cards may not be useworthy in the official Advanced format but this is a game and we want to have fun here under the constraints of its mechanics. Why couldn't we add rules to that, though, as we please?
It seems as if this card game gave us an inconceivable variety of options that we do not explore because we (or card shops) stick to the rules set by Konami.
Dude I specifically don't remotely want Yugioh to ever have rotation but this video only had maybe 1-2 points that had merit. The segments of this video range from either tangential to the purpose of rotation (rarity???) or j something extremely subjective from the biased perspective of someone that either hasn't interacted that much with games that have rotation or specifically refuses to acknowledge/explore the advantages of your opponents argument. If you can't acknowledge the benefits you can't argue against them. It's just misrepresenting to say archtypes are uniquely yugioh.
As someone who would be very sad if yugioh ever went towards rotation I feel as if this video hurt the argument that yugioh is equally enjoyable, if not better, in an eternal format rather than closing the pool down.
I started to play magic a few months ago, I never got into any other tcg, I have enjoyed it quite a lot too, I'm starting to play digimon cause it looks fun and I'm getting the hang of it, but believe me that just seeing ygh cards makes me not want to pay it, and that's having a bunch of friends that would gladly teach me, as an outsider, ygh looks very ridiculous, if they where to reboot the game and structure it better and make interactions easier to read and solve, I would get a starter deck to play with friends, see where it takes me, I would for sure have at least 1 deck to play friends
I have never felt a yugituber get me as much as you have with this video. I have made so many of the same points in the past in different ways. Two things often missed in this disucssion is how rotation does very little to power creep unless you try and mistakes are far worse than in a format with a banlist because if you already have an expiration date adding another way to get rid of cards is a failure on your part. HERO is my favorite deck it is rarely meta but because it gets supports its always on a spot where it can play the game, legacy support just needs to bring decks to that level or higher and that's fun and you don't have to add a bunch of reprints to main sets.
One of the problems locally is that new people don't like Yu-Gi-Oh because of how quickly the game is paste we're even during the first match they ever play they get locked down on their side the first turn so they lose their first game on the first turn and they don't want to play again it's definitely one of those things where it's not that it's hard to grasp and it's not that they care what cards are available it's at they don't have any fun because they can't play
Well, I totally get where you are coming from. However, I think one could say, that in many compeitive hobbies, someone who just got into the game can not realistically think to defeat someone who does this since like 10 years or so. However, at the locals, where I play almost every week, we typically play swiss tournaments of 4 to 5 matches. Due to the swiss system after say 2 matches or so, you typically should be paired against someone of about your power level. And then it is the most fun to play, if you play someone at about your level. As long as there are other beginners, this works well enough, the way I see it. I guess it can betricky, if either there are no locals near your place, when you want to get into it, or when at locals there are just only relatively good players. (Although I've seen kind of a broad spectrum of players. And many really good players don't play their best deck, but try out some weaker stuff, to see how well it works.)
oh boy! I sure do love when floodgates from 20 years ago become meta again!
The think what always gets left out of the "Should Yu-Gi-Oh have set rotation?"-discussion is, that Magic not only has set rotation but also a lot of parallel formats. If one introduced set rotation to YGO, (id est only the cards of the current set (plus maybe some staples) are allowed), then one should also introduce at least another format, which would basically be our usuall advanced format, but always just one set behind, (id est every card but the latest set is allowed). Magic does something similar. Actually they have more formats - including, I think, an "everything allowed except banlist" format, which is basically something like our advanced format today. So, this whole set-rotation discussion is then actually a discussion about, whether YGO can handle more parallel formats. Then I guess, players at locals would just split into two player bases - one for each of two potential parallel formats.
Ya, he's definitely missing the point. Every card game with a rotation system also has "eternal" formats. It seems like he doesn't even know about eternal formats given he came up with a brand new name for the concept. Every problem he's brining up is basically not real. The biggest thing a rotation format does is allow the developers to sell product without needing such power creep. I feel like it's a bit late for YuGiOh, but better late than never to mitigate it. You wouldn't need so much legacy support for old archetypes if they didn't get powercreeped out so hard.
I think you may have missed my point, which is that I think introducing multiple formats into your card game is bad, and a sign that things have gone off the rails.
@@QuestLogFaker Off the rails? Like the other more successful games? You say it's simply an uphill battle to get people into the game because TCGs are uncool, but Hearthstone and Magic are seeing record success.
@@Cman21921 Magic is successful in a vacuous, fake way. They killed their game and are currently living off its corpse, selling Lord of The Rings decks to people who haven't played their actual game in years. If rotation is so great, why don't Magic players play the format that has it? Man some day I'm going mask off on MTG lmao.
@@QuestLogFaker Even before LoTR Magic was doing better than ever. And I can tell you from experience most people enjoying the set are Magic players first. LoTR isn't even a standard rotation set.
And the great thing about standard is that even though it's somewhat less popular than other formats, it still means that Magic has much, much less powercreep than it would need otherwise.
Think of early format links as set rotation. There’s never been a time in history when people were more turned off from the game for not being able to play anything they used too at all. Not that I didn’t love later spiral format skill wise but technically speaking its was THE MOST polarizing deck in history second being tear not to long ago here for the shear power difference not unlike spiral.
Master rule 4 was a joke
I think set Rotation needs to be a thing But much like magic has legacy amd vintage the classic open format can exist
Retro formats or limited card pool special events like Master Duel does are solid ways of keeping the game fresh. Set rotation as an experiment would probably help in the short term, but the long term negatives could do a lot more damage to the game.
I love how you tackled a lot of the points that many have mentioned in the past few months. Very well made video; I enjoyed it!
Thank you! Like I said in the video I just kept hearing the same things over and over and didn't want to let the community consensus go unchecked.
I think a flawed misconception that always occurs from a "counter-Rotation perspective" is the notion that a format without an eternal cardpool cannot and will not exist independently of the rotating format.
Rotating formats exist to create a more curated format that is more easily digestible. If a player wants to gnaw on something with more depth or has understandably different play patterns, they can move onto the eternal formats.
Similarly, if they find the gameplay in eternal formats not suitable to their taste, their options are to either completely stop playing, let the spirit of masochism inhabit them and deal with it, or take a look at the rotating format.
Well, this is a well put together video. Everyone would have the option of which format they would play. It's quiet, multiple stores by me. Magic can have modern. And Pioneer running at the same time.
I decided to come back to this video months after it blew up when MBT mentioned it on stream. I mostly agree with your points, but I have two criticisms/disagreements.
1) Cards like Shadow-Imprisoning Mirror and other floodgates aren't innovative. They're cards we've known are good for specific reasons, but also they're floodgates. Floodgates promote a type of gameplay that, in practice, win the game unless the opponent has an out for them. People (including myself) generally find this toxic and unfun, so I find this to be a poor example. A better example would be cards like Gravity Controller (who has use in some decks), Downerd Magician (for Zeus), Enemy Controller (when Spright and Floow started teching it unexpectedly), Compulsory (in some builds of Labrynth), etc. These are innovative rather than expected. (Also Mushroom Man 2 was like a 1 week wonder in the OCG. I wouldn't say its a fair example, but its probably fine for the video cause the wider audience of people don't realize this fact.)
2) You talk about Diablosis and Kashtira, and I think there's a better way to look at it. You view it as "is Diablosis the problem because of the type of interaction it performs OR is it Kashtira for being a strong deck that enables it". I think its better to view this type of situation as "they created a deck that happens to synergize way too much with a certain card". Diablosis wasn't that good before Kashtira, and Kashtira is a deck that *could* exist in a fair manner (y'know banning Ariseheart). The solution should be determined based on the situation to prevent the this hyper synergy from occurring, which means using the banlist. This comes down to banning Diablosis, but the reasoning isn't something like "Diablosis is a card that was always gonna be a problem, we were waiting for it to be broken" cause no one expected they'd ever make something like Kashtira. The reason is that Diablosis wasn't designed for current yugioh, and its the banlist's job (in my opinion) to change card legality based whether its fair for the current design of the game. This is similarly why a card like Change of Heart coming to 1 isn't an issue. The design of the game has changed to where Change of Heart is a pretty fair card to have when compared to other board breakers. In general, I feel the video doesn't mention the banlist much as a tool to ensure old cards that break the current game are dealt with.
Definitely a good comment, you stopped at two disagreements but I definitely could have gone on, this was the first video I made in the style I want to go with going forward and made a lot of mistakes, I think my broader point was largely correct but I don't think I explained it particularly well, largely in part due to the fact that nobody watched my videos before and I didn't expect anyone to watch this, I was mostly passionately giving myself an excuse to practice with the editing software.
Specifically answering your point about floodgates, idk how I feel about them precisely, I feel like they're annoying to deal with but I don't think they're unfair, asking a player to prepare an out for a floodgate is no different than preparing an out for a towers, it's just another style of card, at least in my opinion, and this is coming from a guy who has been clobbered by TCOBO more times than I can count.
I appreciate your perspective, hopefully the stuff coming out soon is a bit higher quality.
@@QuestLogFaker Thanks for the reply! One thing I forgot to mention at the end that isn't a criticism or anything is that Yugioh already has rotation. You've seen the recent banlist. They just rotated out Tear, Mathmech, and Plant Link. I'd say the points you made in this video would be good arguments opposing this kind of rotation as well. With how yugioh uniquely has archetypes and people attached to them as favorites, it's really sucky that a deck can just be rotated out of playability even if it wasn't top tier (like Mathmech and Plant Link).
As for your reply, you made a comparison between floodgates and towers. There's a big difference between those because of how much investment they require, the pressure they apply, and the counterplay available. For a towers, they're high investment, usually only apply a single disruption, and the counterplay to them ranges from negation preventing the plays that summon it, drawing a Kaiju, and making Avramax or Accesscode to beat over it. For floodgates (at least the cont traps), they don't require any investment besides being 1 card, they apply immense pressure, and the counterplay available is main deck spell trap removal (because the floodgate is usually preventing the deck from accessing extra deck). In short, you can continue playing even if a towers is on board and work towards removing it, but for a floodgate you have to "draw the out".
Yugioh already has a rotation format, its called "your deck isnt good enough". I mean, yeah you can play old cards at a tourney, but you will lose. I also feel like old cards cause far more harm that good when affecting new formats. Which old cards are the ones that come up the most? Floodgates that werent designed to be played alongside newer stuff. I cant imagine being a card designer for yugioh and having to designed around the thousands of other cards that you could potentially break by typing a sentence in the wrong way. By introducing a rotating format, you free up so much design space. You choose what kind of floodgates are available in any given format. Legacy support to archetypes actually matters because those archetypes can be balanced in a format where they are intended to be strong. Its sucks that the one tricks dont get to keep their deck, but i mean, how many more of those one tricks left the game because their deck doesnt work anymore anyway? Most of the legacy support doesnt do anything to the deck's winrate. Do you think any of the new volcanic or salamangreat support will be stronger than kastira/purrley/rescue ace/labrynth? Probably not. Then the next archetype will come out, and the legacy support will become even worse. In a rotation format, you can keep that archetype relevant for the entire time its in rotation, if its bad, you release a new card to make it better. Then, you can just reintroduce it later. In fact, by doing this, you could keep almost every archetype you make around the same level of power overall. Even in MBT's experiment, where salamangreat dominated the tourneys, how much easier is that to fix then whatever is happening in current yugioh? He could release the next set and buff the other archetypes, while adding one or two new ones. He could introduce cards that are good counters to salad which wont affect the entire cardpool until the end of time. How many deck counters are introduced in modern yugioh that also hit pretty much any old startegy aiming to do similar things? In tear format, every graveyard deck became unviable. In superheavy, droll was everywhere, so no decks that could be hurt by it were playable. We already have rotation format, just with extra steps.
I definitely agree, the freedom and creativity that Yugioh's open format allows for is one of it's greatest strengths IMO. The fact I can build a deck with my dusty old LOB vanillas alongside fresh out of the pack Duelist Nexus cards is just an experience you can't really get elsewhere!
100% I'm very much a "not every game needs to be the same" kind of duelist.
Everyone needs to send this video to Joseph
Lmao he reacted to it last night and completely fucking tore me to shred, I'll pass on that.
I don't want set rotation. The master rules usually are already a turn off. As a fan of Blue-Eyes who likes to also play niche cards, it would feel awful if something like a Set Rotation gets introduced. I don't think anyone would be happy if they invested a lot of money on cards that end up being unplayable (literally) until a new set is out and hopefully it is included. You can say the bannlist is similar in that sense but it affects just a limited pool of cards. Set rotation would kill several decks instead a few and would upset far more people.
I am not playing modern yugioh, so my words may not hold much value. The game evolved to a point I just cannot get back into it, so I play GOAT format. But if set rotation where a thing, I would still not play it. While I could consider getting back in modern yugioh. Set rotation would kill a lot of the old core fanbase. The only reason other formats work now, is because the old format of allowing all the previous cards is still an option to be played.
As someone who used to not support set rotation in the game but now does from listening to other people's perspectives on YGO as it relates to other card games, I get where you're coming from but I disagree with you when it comes to complexity.
YuGiOh is a very complex game, and at its peak it is arguably the most complex of the Big 3 by far. And yet, at the same time, the game can tend to get pretty homogenized. Don't get me wrong, I love modern YuGiOh, I'm fine with the 3-turn meta, but to pretend you can put a deck in someone's hand who's never read a single card and teach them how the entire game works in a day is a little disingenuous. There's a lot of intricacies in how cards interact in even the more simple and linear decks, and even the simplest modern deck can do so much turn one, which is why you'll often hear Magic players not like YGO because "every deck is combo." By their standards, it is!
I don't have it on me, but I saw something in Twitter where a pro YGO player taught their younger relative how to play Pokemon in like 15 minutes, and then even the mom got involved and wanted to play too. Pokemon is an easy game to grasp because there's not really a combo chain or stack to keep track of, and most effects don't have stipulations like activation timing windows and figuring out if or when it checks to see if the requirements are met to be able to resolve the effect correctly.
Note that I don't want set rotation to become a main thing. But even with the love I have for modern stuff, there's a charm in going back to playing Edison or Battle Pack Draft that the modern game just doesn't have. I'd love if at the very least, Konami added more support for alternative formats other than Time Wizard events at YCSes.
Man for my bachelor party we did Battle Pack Three draft from a sealed box and it was the best Yu-Gi-Oh I ever played, we loved it. I agree the game is complex, what I was trying to say is that rotation won't impact the complexity, and even if it did, the complexity isn't so severe it makes it a problem. Some people are turned off by complexity, some people see it as a challenge that's satisfying to overcome. The perspective that complexity is a problem is just that, a perspective. I appreciate your input though :)
Plus ya know set rotation is only good for people who buy cards on the regular
Good video. I was on board until you said pokemon was just as hard yugioh but whatever that's subjective. Honestly id like to see more formats. Id like a rotating format and the current one. But I agree we cant ever just only have a rotating format that would suck and we would miss out mushroom #2 moments.
Yeah, i understand the idea that Yugioh is never going to be truly mainstream because its a card game and that is something that it shares with Pokemon TCG, but to say that they require the same time investment to "get a solid grasp on" is not very accurate.
How does magic the gathering not have archetypes? Goblins, elves, merfolk etc appear and disappear across rotation blocks. Also a lot of your arguments are completely flawed, just watch MBTs reaction. I don’t really think you understand what you are arguing against, set rotation provides many of the things you think it doesn’t.
Archetypes are much more restrictive in Yu-Gi-Oh because the lack of a mana system necessitates cards to have harder conditions to fulfill.
This video has 2 MAJOR problems. Really only one problem: it ignores two extremely important points of information.
1) its extremely possible for konami to support a rotation format AND a Non-rotating format. Magic the gathering has fully supported Standard(rotation) format and Modern(non rotating) format. As well as fully supporting limited formats with tournaments AND legacy format.
2) yugioh already has a version of rotation. But a much more destructive and alienating version called “Selective Banning + Extreme powercreep”. Its so well known and accepted by the community that konami bans older decks to promote new cards its sad. And the powercreep is so extreme that decks like tearelements, sprite, and kashtira are simply so much better than the best decks of a year or two ago, and look like a completely different game than decks from a decade or a decade and a half ago.
So long story short I hate the idea of introducing separate formats, I think it's bad design and bad for the game, but I should have brought it up and had planned to in a video that was slated for today but decided to hold it off and make sure it was tighter. And I don't think the Yu-Gi-Oh power creep is as bad as it's often made out to be, but arguing that banning is a form of rotation is a legitimate point.
Personally, a bigger problem than set rotation is card accessibility. Ok so tear is the best deck? At least let everyone play tear, make the majority of cards common and make a high rarity counterpart. I spend a decent amount of money in this game, but I would never in my entire life spend 300$ in 3 copies of perlereino, you can be sure of that. Making the game accessible only to people that are willing to make those investments is a terrible practice.
OCG be like
Idk, I think you're kinda misunderstanding how other nostalgia-driven games have handled rotation. Like, looking at Pokemon as an example, Pokemon prints *some version of* Charizard constantly. There basically is never a rotation where there isnt some card with the word Charizard on it. But that doesn't mean they actually re-print whole legacy Charizard decks back into the game, they just make new cards that fit the new set's theme, that have Charizard in the name and do Charizard type things. Like, for Yu-Gi-Oh maybe they would need to print the literal OG blue eyes normal monster every so often, that's fine. But they don't need to reprint Dragon spirit of white, or sage with eyes of blue, they just make a different deck that does different blue-eyes related things. Honestly, that deck would probably have a better shot of seeing play, cause they can design it at the current standard power level
I'm actually not exaggerating at all when I say the *whole point* of rotation is to *not* reprint ash blossom and joyous spring. The whole point is to make it so the cards people play change and the texture of the game changes without having to literally power creep every card. I don't want them to re print ash blossom, and I also don't want them to print ash blossom ultra instinct that draws two cards when you successfully negate something. I want them to print new cards that interact with the opponent in new different ways, and have those be good in the game
I'm sure there are players who really just want to keep playing one particular deck as is. But I have good news for you! Konami actually has no power to prevent you and your friends from doing that! I have a Magic deck that hasn't been legal or viable in any format for ten years and I still play it with my friends periodically. This is how casual players who don't go to tournaments have basically always played games. The point of rules like a rotation are for master dual and YCSs (with master dual being the important one because that's how most people are going to come into the game)
Good Video!
Couldn’t have said it any better myself!
Nice work!
Thank you so much I appreciate that, any requests or thoughts? I'm new to this.
Eh! I don’t know myself! I’m not really an expert or veteran when it comes to Yugitubing or being in the world of content creation, in general, so I don’t really believe that I’m qualified to give a concrete/proper answer! However, from the content of yours that I have seen, it seems to be fine for what it is! So, I guess my recommendation would simply be just this: “Eh! Just keep doing what your doing! And, See where things go from there! Or something, like that, I dunno!”
Alright, that is all! From me!
of course, why yugioh would surely die if people couldn't play Genex into the Kashtira meta.
the point of this idea of rotation is to curb the powerlevel of the game. "draco future isn't a ghost trick monster but it's close enough" is an opinion that can only be derived from the state of modern yugioh, where games are decided at the beginning of turn 2 and you need a negate less your board meets its metaphorical and literal match.
complexity is indeed an issue. anecdotal tho this may be, me and my sister learned to play the pokemon game in about a day. she got interested in the anime and wanted to play with some of the old trading cards I had. we got some structures and learned together, it was very easy. I think if I had to explain the difference between an if and when effect and why a card like solemn judgment cannot stop a fusion summon itself, you need to negate the spell, she would fall asleep.
none of this is to say that the game needs to shed mechanics, I think making pendulum decks that don't fall into the categories of "goodstuff board builder" or "we play a game that isn't yugioh" is a good thing. releasing certain pieces of generic support for decks to use is a good thing, knightmares are some quintessential things in lower power environments, but not giving you IP to make unicorn on your opponents turn is a compromise. you can have bomber dragon but not accesscode. sky cav but no zues. etc...
when it comes to reprints of old cards, like modern times, why wouldn't the previous versions be legal? if they reprint ash blossom because they rotated it back in, why wouldn't you be able to use the ones you already have? you make it sound like if we got ash in a traptrix structure suddenly you couldn't play with the foot fetish art, a ridiculous notion.
what I guess I'm trying to say is. just because something is different does not mean that it is bad. yugioh is going through a little bit of a cultural Renaissance. it would be a shame if it were squandered by returning or new players not understanding, to use a quote from a very big youtube personality, what an asstrap is.
People couldn't play genex when it was current so that's hardly relevant to the Kash meta. However less silly decks like Marincess, Speedroid, Altergeist, Traptrix and Super heavy have all topped recently and those decks would be non-existent.
Like I said on other comments Power Creep wasn't really my focus of the video and that might have been a mistake on my part, I was more addressing specifically the idea that rotation would be good for new players or curb complexity.
I agree about the Renaissance, and I have a video slated for next week titles "Deck Traps, or The Death of Yu-Gi-Oh" so maybe I can address some of the missed points from this video. Thanks for watching though 😁🤙
This was interesting, but I rise the argument... IT SHOULD BE AN OPTION.
Not a single person I've seen advocate for set rotation suggests it as a replacement for Yu-Gi-Oh's current format. I think your perspective is reasonable, but I don't really get the point of advocating against something that potentially doesn't effect you in any way at all. You're making it black and white when it is not.
Also I have no clue where the "concern trolling" comment comes from. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind Yu-Gi-Oh is the most complex and intimidating game to introduce to new players. I don't really see how that could be interpreted any other way... Several extra deck mechanics, missing the timing, hard/soft once per turns, poor card wording, lack of keywords, lengthy text, etc. It's not just complex, it's bloated.
I appreciate your perspective but couldn't disagree more. Maybe we're listening to different voices but I don't think I've heard anyone suggest Rotation as an alternative format, and even if I had I'm not sure alternative formats are really what Yu-Gi-Oh needs, and I think it would gum things up more than anything. The comment on concern trolling comes from people who state that Yu-Gi-Oh is too complicated for new players, but will also belittle the game by comparing it's difficulty negatively to games like Magic. I don't think it's nearly that bad.
Hey, so, after MBT's response/reaction to this video on stream a while back, do you plan on making any more videos on this subject?
I get that it kinda got some negative reception, but it's a genuinely interesting discussion, and I feel like the both of you had some pretty good arguments, so I feel like it'd be kind of a bummer to leave the discussion as is.
I definitely do, I'm just not super confident in the quality of video I'm able to make right now and work has been killer lately, so I'm trying to navigate making better videos that I think are actually good, with my day/night job. I think my audio quality, scripting, all that is pretty touch and go, and I haven't had the time to sit and really iron out those flaws in my videos just yet.
I appreciate your comment though, it's nice to know people made looking forward to it.
Couldnt have said it better tbh
Idk about that, we all have a voice :D appreciate it though
@@QuestLogFaker you could have also mentioned the price of the game. When it comes to meta decks today, if u buy a meta deck in 2021 there is a good chance it will at least be rogue and playable in 2023 given new cards. (Salamangreat, striker, phantom knights, etc.)
Imagine price of the game where in a year suddenly your pots of extravagance, tripped tactics thrusts, chaos angels and kurikaras were all unplayable and you have to replace them with a bunch of other cards that will be unplayable in a year. Of course yugioh has a problem with rarities and price but set rotation really wont help make game any more accessible.
@@idkdontask7142 very good point, Yu-Gi-Oh is insanely affordable for the vast majority of players and decks and the fact that old cards get supported and reprinted is a huge part of that. You want to build dinos nowadays? The deck is $30 have fun.
I find myself generally against set rotation due to how it forces players to constantly replace cards and decks to keep up in local settings where one would frequent. MtG has a rotating format, though I'd argue that it's little more than an introductory format for players before they dig into far better formats which contains bigger card pools with cards that lack rotation.
Playing Standard sucked as a casual player when I could only get a local tournament at best once a month where my deck was little more than budget cards pulled together for some cheap aggro win. Once the next block was introduced I'd have to drop a portion or all of my deck to build something else and the second hand wasn't forgiving with regards to my cards since my cards didn't quite have an impact on the other formats.
Without set rotation I can keep an older deck and still play it against other opponents. I'm not favored to win, but I can still enjoy eeking out those wins against newer decks.
When I got back into Yu-Gi-Oh I brought my old Shaddoll structure deck, won a single match, and improved the deck over time by adding invoked and all sorts of stuff. It doesn't matter that people old decks aren't competitive, it just matters they can play them lol. At least in my eyes
it's also like, yugioh just isn't designed to have a set rotation. archetypes and legacy support simply aren't built for a constantly rotating set of cards. are we going to say the people who like branded are "fusion players" who will gladly play any fusion deck in the format, even if it doesn't play like branded beyond the summoning mechanic? what do we consider emblematic link and pendulum archetypes? people are going to have wildly different answers to this question almost purely through their own motivation.
and re:simplification:
part of yugioh's appeal is the big plays, going through 15 cards on a turn. simplifying that doesn't make for a compelling game, at least in my opinion.
Not every game needs to be the same, things have pros and cons, you must sacrifice the perfect conceptual for the flawed actuality. Couldn't agree more.
Fire video, fantastic points and awesome awareness 🎉
I'm indifferent toward set rotation, I'd probably play whatever whenever because I just love Yugioh. But I will say limiting the card pool will definitely stop me from playing. I'm not the type of person to latch to one deck, I get bored too quickly, and if 80% of choices are gone, I won't have anything new to switch to when I do get bored.
This is kind of what happens with Speed Duel, a bunch of decks I've already played and seen. Sure, it was fun to revisit them, but when that nostalgia novelty wore off, I just stopped playing. Also, the failure of Speed Duel, because I can't find it anywhere anymore, makes me think a set rotation will not work. Of course, there are different rules and issues, but it's basically a beta set rotation. At five locals, no one sponsors it or asks for it.
One of my biggest fears is stagnation of the game. If set rotation does happen, then what happens to the main format? Are we still going to get new support when konami's attention is divided? If not, will Kash forever remain the best deck, leaving the main line a boring mess? Even if we do get new support, will it be for the rotation or main line? If it is for the rotation, it will be borderline useless in the main line due to the power difference.
Competitively (which is where this would have been implemented) we basically already have set rotation. What decks are viable rotate out and Konami chooses which decks those are by printing support or putting things on the banlist
You should watch law's 2012 tcg recap
Top cut mostly dino rabbit,wind up, chaos dragons
Event winner :that one six samurai player
I think a lot of people are begging for a set rotating format now because they don't like the direction of the game. Now I don't understand why they don't just play a different game or not play at all if they don't like playing Yugioh, but to each their own I guess.
To me it's very similar to when people beg for a banlist and then still complain. No amount of banning or set rotation is gonna make your normal monster beat down viable man, sorry.
Its way to late for yugioh to go to set rotation at this point. The power creep at this point has created a lot more just unfun formats where it isnt uncommon that you lose on the 3rd turn of the game, this for new players is really off putting. I dont know if there's much stats about it but the player base seems like it decreases each year and there isnt as much new blood that comes into the game
One thing that I didn't see in the video that is important to add is that advanced and rotation are not exclusive. Yu-Gi-Oh is unique in how it has only one main format officially and other ways of playing are set as minor side events.
I think the best way to set up rotation is to set it up like how speed duels were intended to run - as its own version of the game thats run with its own tournaments and packs. I certainly agree that rotation is not the best when its your only way to play, but I'd also like to introduce the idea that exclusively playing advanced is not the best either.
Allowing players to switch between formats helps prevent people from leaving the game because they're priced out or frustrated with a particular meta. For example, if someone is tired of playing against Kash, they can head over to rotation where salamangreat, blue eyes, and onomat are duking it out, or if that's not your cup of tea, head over to speed duels where vampires, trap monsters, and dark scorpions are topping. Alternative formats allow for a variety of gameplay styles and themes to flourish while keeping to the central principals and rules of Yu-Gi-Oh.
Hm, interesting idea: to just try to introduce a set rotation format right next to the advanced format, just to see how people would accept it as a low risk kinda thing. But then, I think one should really think well about an allowed list: something like, the current so and so sets with these and those names, plus a list of 100 staples or so + a list of some old cards that indirectly go well with the current decks. Maybe this is something Konami could just try out. It would literally almost no effort and no risk. One just would have to advertise it enough. I don't know, if it would work, tbh. If it finally got to the point where enough people had accepted it, one however would have to think about where to go with it. To make it its own thing - seperate from advanced format? From then on, it would get tricky.
@@saitougin7210 Yup! that's part of what MBT's rotation is working with. Though, it has a bunch of other goals in addition, such as taking out unfun cards and mechanics, such as floodgates and towers and teaching new players deckbuilding principals and strategies for advanced format.
@@kj9004 Sounds fun. Now, it just had to be official and I would have to have more free time. Then I'd be in, I guess.
Great Video!
Thank you! I appreciate it
Great video but it ultimately ignores multiple issues with the game itself. One the cost of having an open format. By allowing ancient archetypes to be around players who want to play those cards have to spend more money as the cards hevent been reprinted in forever (something pokemon doesnt have an issue with as they reprint cards all the time) Secondly the game has become a game of solitaire where most decks rush to build an unbreakable board. Time and time we see hand traps and new towers like monsters being made. Which , for that specific niche of players who like playing with themselves, is fine.
But it doesn't exactly make the game both interesting to observe nor fun to experience if u bring say a madolche deck from the mid 2010s to your locals.
This fear of change is common and very human but it ignores the fact that you *can* have ur cake and eat it too. You *can* have multiple formats. Magic the gathering does and to an extent so does pokemon. if you want to play your turbolockdown solitaire deck from 2020 vs a turbolockdown down form 2023 its possible to have that AND a healthy game, where players fully expect a top tier deck to have their cards hit by the banlist.
If literally the only way to balance your game is to ban cards outright how the hell is that more freedom or a better healthier cardgame then one with set rotation. Its essentially just a hostage situation and the players are the willing hostages. its asinine.
Yugioh has one of the best reprint policies in any card game and Yugioh players have just as much access to pretty much every game piece as older sets were printed into the ground just like newer sets. As someone who plays Vintage and cEDH I can understand the expense of playing a more open format, but most old Yugioh cards are dirt cheap and every once in a while some old common jumps up to like 10 bucks but gets reprints a few months later in a OTS pack or one the biannual reprint sets. Right now, I think newer staple prices are a far bigger problem than older cards are.
Current yugioh isn't about building a towers monster and having a unbreakable board really, its about interacting with your opponents plays as much as possible just like many other games. It can have bad formats sure, but the game is ever evolving thanks to banlists, new releases, and play testing. Also just because you think Yugioh isn't fun doesn't mean others do and saying those players are a niche is just silly.
Also fun fact, you can just rule zero cards you don't like in your play group if you really want to, no ones stopping you from playing the game the way you want to. You can have a fan regulated set rotated format if you want, but probably Konami isn't going to support it unless a lot of people want to play it. You aren't a hostage, you can just play the game you want. Its called MTG standard and it sucks.