I was thinking of this, but there is that element in certain religions of excommunication or once you leave you can't come back which isn't quite like what we would normally think of with a cult but certainly could be construed to have a coercive tone.
My personal definition is a that an organization is a cult is based on how they treat you if you attempt to leave. The Catholic faith is not a cult. You're free to walk away without consequence from members within the organization at any time you choose.
@@forthewin369 Correct. But no one from the Catholic Church, no clergy, is going to come hunt you down or try to discredit you. Hence my statement of "without consequence from members within."
@@esthert9146 I would say they are a religion. However, are they Christian in a sense that they practice a Trinidadian baptism? I’m thinking in RCIA we had someone who came from that religion and had to be baptized conditionally because of that.
It's healthy to reflect on whether the organizations we are part of share the negative qualities of cults. Thank you for raising these questions, Father Casey.
There is another thing to point out here, and it's that _cults_ don't always have a religious-like facade, some of them are presented as a leadership/entrepreneurship seminars. Some people use the term of "coercive organizations" instead of "cult" to be more objective with the meaning.
I think "coercive organization" is a good step in dissociating the abusive behaviors of these groups from the anthropologically useful word "cult" to describe religious practice. Still feels like it ticks some but not all of the boxes, though. I suppose language is...complex and difficult to negotiate!
As a former atheist (baptized about a year and a half ago, now Catholic) I saw both as one and the same. I've been wondering how to better distinguish the two, thank you so much!
@@allykat5899 Coming from practically a disbelief in all things Catholic: Subjective morality, People can't resurrect from the dead, time could be cyclical, Jesus didn't start a specific church, the pope is a “look at the video title” leader, the first cause couldn't be rational/moral, religion is meant to control, people can change “parts” and clothes, neutralizing or separating said “parts” from each other are good, “lack of baby” and "helping" our genetics are okay, “people of different types”icsm is okay in right measure, “pleasure” and media for it are natural and good, “substances” are okay in measure, “party for the end” is okay and just an expression or choice whether or not there was a “party”, “the evil one”ism is better than Christianity. All these things and more I used to do/believe and God had to convince me otherwise. He got to me in the only way He could; What is true? I thought I knew the answers to all these things so I tried to prove myself right. I started looking into religion when I saw a random post saying that Jesus rose from the dead. I was like "that's literally crazy talk" little did I know God was already working in me before that to be open to such craziness that I was willing to be convinced otherwise. It wasn't just one thing, it was a radical change of my whole person in like maybe 2 years after I had already changed political and moral ideologies shortly before that. I used to get so angry about politics I argued myself closer to Christ, and He took what He could get and ran. Unfortunately it's gone a little too far in terms of "following Christ" (really not Him) combined with a host of mental issues, so I need a lot of spiritual guidance from priests and therapists to not be so scrupulous or mislead but I wouldn't have it any other way. If it's between being how I was or walking this way of life I'm gonna choose this. Thank you for asking! I don't often get asked about life questions, I appreciate you. I would have worded this slightly differently to make expose evil but TH-cam unfortunately didn't like the comment. Thanks to @Paul Cooper for pointing it out
Wow. I know I am extremely late to read this but man, this is perhaps one of the most in depth dives I've seen to a complicated subject in the shortest possible time, and I really have to say your honesty is amazing. I really hope I can see more content of yours like this in the near future! Keep it up!
Cult-like behaviour can certainly infect mainstream churches. It's one of the reasons I warm to quiet, self-contained priests more than big personalities or great orators. I want someone to deliver the sacraments, not be someone to admire, except in their lack of desire for admiration.
It depends. Is the person using their charisma to draw people to God or are they drawing people to themselves? God gives us gifts intending us to use them to draw people to Him, to do good for other people.
Great video! I asked my freshman year Theology teacher (a Jesuit novice) the same question a while back, mostly as a snarky yet friendly remark. I’ve changed a lot since lol. He responded with much more simplistic versions of the arguments you brought up, so it was great to see you dive into this topic in detail. Nice work.
Father Casey, you are a courageous truth teller and wise beyond your years. I’ve learned so much from you by watching your videos. You have helped to revive my faith in the Catholic Church and it’s teachings.
I don't normally respond to videos, but thank you Fr Casey fo addressing the question, "What is a Cult?" Unfortunately, I have heard too many "nones" say the church is a cult and frankly that truely makes me concerned. You are one of the first catholic priest's that I know of to address this concern. In today's environment I think it is more important than you know.
The B.I.T.E model is great assessment method. Behavior, information, thought, and emotional influence are ways people effect each other. There's healthy and unhealthy levels for all of these things. Religious orders CAN run on the unhealthy spectrum or can respect the individuality of members while in community. The word has separate definitions in theology, sociology, psychology etc. I used to be a Jehovah's Witnesses and they won't let you leave or disagree in any fashion. They are lead by a group of leaders and is 150 years old but they're still a cult.
The word "cult" has taken on its own (probably negative) connotation, in the post-modern world. Let's remember, the word "cult" used to be used synonymously with the word "culture."
If by "used to" you are referring to the original latin words, coined two thousand years ago? Sure. Since then however, a bit of time has passed. Cult and culture have pretty much never referred to the same thing since....
Agriculture involves cultivating an acre (agri) of land, as "culture" involves a cultivating of values. A "cult" is an organization that cultivates - the culture is the byproduct - in the way a scribe inscribes scripture, a painter depicts a picture, a sculptor sculpts a sculpture, a meter metes a measure, and so on. There, now you, the reader, are one step closer to being fluent in Latin.
Thank you, Fr. Casey for your insightful comments. I remember the Jonestown deaths, the "Moonies", the Hare Krishna's and others. People would actually have to be rescued from such; unfortunately, that didn't always work. In becoming a Benedictine, no one ever controlled my mindset, and we were free to leave at anytime. Although one can have great devotion to another, that's not worship. Generally, the leaders of the cults want their followers to worship them and regularly manipulate. Thanks again for everything you do. PAX.
I am reminded of a book I read; The Codex, by Douglas Preston. It is NOT a religious book; it is an adventure thriller of dubious ethics. But there is a character in it who has spent his whole life bouncing from one cult to another looking for meaning. On his deathbed, his father tells him: "Here's the rule of thumb; if they want all your money, the religion is bullshit. If doesn't cost anything to pray in a church." I think that is a good rule. If they ask for donations, fine. If you have to give up everything to the faith just to join it is probably a cult. Give up everything just to join, as opposed to the Catholic Church, where you can choose to do that if you want to join a holy order, but can also just go once a week.
"A community must have a center. It must have a purpose. It must have a unifying purpose. And it must be stronger than the will and intent of any person. It must have the Power of Heaven within it to be true, to be lasting and to carry itself forward into a world that will be ever more chaotic within the Great Waves of change." *_The New Message from God » The Worldwide Community of God’s New Message_*
I saw a video once where a couple of guys who used to be in groups which... Are arguably cults, use an attempt at a clinical model for cults on different religions to determine things like "How much does this religion control the thoughts of its people/ does this group have thought crime as doctrine?" Among others. IIRC their conclusion on the Catholic church at large from an outside point of view was "Cult like but definitely not a cult".
I really liked this video and the fact that you were willing to dive deep into the idea instead of being scared and avoidant speaks volumes to me about your character. I'm LDS and am often accused of being in a cult. It's always hurtful and confusing to hear that. So i appreciated the topic. Thank you
@@cutebeanie 😁😃. Are the Free Masons, Illuminati & Rosicrucians cults? Not all cults are controlling to the extreme. If R. Catholicism is regarded a cult, I'll be regarded as a cultist which is quite fine as I'm an unapologetic follower/believer/worshipper & all that goes with being a Christian of the ultimate Head of the Church Jesus Christ Son of The Living God & God Himself.😊
Dunno about the others, but the freemasons may be a mystical order, but they aren't a cult. I was a member from 2016 to late last year. When I decided I didn't belong anymore and resigned from the Craft nobody had any problem with me leaving, just asked me to keep in touch.
The word cult in Spanish “culto” can have a positive… in Spanish culto or to “offer cult” (rendir culto) means worship and can be used in relation to our all Loving God… while the negative in English “cult” in Spanish is called a “secta” or a sect 🧏🏽♀️
People also tend to forget that there are political cults. Just ask Dr. Janna Lalich, who says she was formerly in a radical political cult. Wired did an excellent video with her discussing cults.
I always appreciate your willingness to grapple with hard questions and find nuanced answers. I agree with your assessment, it's more of a spectrum than two absolute categories.
I thought about this a lot over the past several years and I think that the intention question is a very important one. I also was lucky enough to encounter some very good thinkers who helped me to see that "religion" is not just organized, but that the elements that define organized religion are functionally found all over our greater social interactions; that the things which are religious are not limited to what we link automatically with religions. In that, it became much easier to see how people can be swayed into unfortunate ideas and beliefs especially when they do lack the guidance of good organized religion (ideally in my opinion, The Church). Humans seem to have a natural desire to these religious elements of the world and society. They naturally seek beyond themselves and when they don't have something solid of religion to lean against, they might find themselves hopelessly floating or they might latch onto these idea groups which function religiously or worse an actual detrimental cult. One of the things which set in stone my return to the Catholic Church was coming to understand that she is very open to and even encouraging of questions and of discovery, and that she is in fact seeking truth in all of these "rules" and ways. Cults don't allow for that. Of course, there is a line to be drawn between a religion which is more strict but maybe there is simply a line there that can't be defined and maybe some of these groups do tread close to it, but you are correct: it is very much a visceral reaction that is somewhat lost on younger people or people who have come to see the world more relativistically.
Father keep up your wonderful Utube videos. I live in Australia and have never seen anything like you do in this country. You are a pleasure to listen to. Thank you
0:42 & 1:16: “ _that guy isn't in a cult - that's the life of any religious_ " 2:11 3:17 I agree! *Ppl who reject social constructs* 4:19 the line is blurred between religion & cults PROBLEMS 4:52 1️⃣ it's easy to give oversimplified definitions that aren't clear enough ==> 5:28 a better définition: having a charismatic leader isn't enough 5:57 cult leaders override any other sources: there's no room for questioning his or her authority * individuality is suppressed and people spend all their time in groups 7:30 8:45 2️⃣ *many members of cults & religion have similar practices but what differentiates it is the reason behind the action* For example (10:19), asceticism isn't always bad ==> body cleansing methods like diets are frequently used by regular people who deem it good to do it from time to time 10:39 when you compare religion & cults it's inevitable that there's going to be a lot of similarities in practice, thus the focus shouldn't be on wether they do the same things but rather, why they do them 11:07 3️⃣ inflexible definitions * Built on logical fallacies, promote unhealthy behavior 13:12 4️⃣ the difference isn't binary * There are no cult apologist bc it carries a negative connotation * It's a continuum *Just because it's not a cult doesn't mean it's above reproach either. There are cult like tendencies sometimes in great organization*
I have worked for several "eco-villages", where I taught and learned sustainable construction. I have had to actually deal with this same question, people telling me I'm in a cult.
Cults tend to mimic religion. A funny joke would be a religion is just a cult + time 🤣 The only difference is the Catholic Church is based on witness accounts of the truth.
I took a college course on cults, and one of the major questions was whether the term "cult" is an accurate or useful descriptor. Definitions of "cults" are often broad and can attach negative connotations to innocent groups. You can break a lot of things down and place them into the category of cult.
Having spent 20 years in a cult I might lend some clarity. For me a cult is defined by its method as opposed to its doctrines. A cult is demonstrated by how it implements its beliefs as compared to what the details are. Cults are almost exclusively a projection and extension of the leader/founder who is 99% of the time an extreme Narcissist. A Narcissist isn't just someone who has a comb up his sleeve, but is a person with a permanent personality disorder, driven by a lifelong consumption to have power and superiority over other people, whilst being extremely fragile and sensitive to any form of criticism. The cult is the constructed environment they make to sustain these drives. There is no real belief in any of the teachings, just that the leader must always be in charge and can never be questioned or threatened in anyway.
4:15 when he says that it rejects social constructs be spot on of why monk orders would be seen as cults by modern society. Their oath to poverty, celibacy, adherence to Benedictine Rules, they rise at 3:00 am, their habits, and little use of modern devices. They choose this over what society can't fathom living without. But I sense a lot of double standards when it's Christian orders and not Buddhist orders who are just as strict if not stricter.
Pretty good topic, Father, and your honest answer is sound - a cult is different from a religion or other social grouping of likeminded people based upon a subjective, negative determination of what they strongly believe, how they live as a group, and how the group or group’s leader controls its members. Your discussion made me think about, within the Catholic Church, the organization Opus Dei. I’m not inclined to consider Opus Dei a cult within the Catholic Church, in spite of some of their more extreme practices to regularly sanctify themselves in a way that celebrates Jesus’ sacrifice and suffering during the passion. However, Opis Dei does seem to proselytize the Gospel by focusing or prioritizing the membership of people in power or near power, something I unfortunately perceive to be an effort to wield power to influence both the Church and secular society at large. I support their basic ends, promoting individuals to get closer to God and thus seek to be more Christ-like, but I also seriously question Opus Dei’s means of going about it.
Hear me out: y’all should be regularly reaching out to separating or recently separated service members, especially those who served in the combat arms. 1) They are already use to service and fraternal living, and have accepted (and in some cases have) put their lives on the line for their brothers or complete strangers. 2) They often feel lost and overwhelmed when they leave the service 3) It won’t be easy, because they’re probably separating from the service because they want some sort of “freedom”, but at least knowing that this is an option may lead some good men to you 4) especially if with the wars in the Middle East, many troops are familiar with dealing with difficulties cultures and language barriers 5) most of these men have really good hearts which unfortunately may have been scared/hardened by evil. Idk I would’ve really liked more of a Church influence while I was serving/when I separated. It maybe an underserved area that may yield many fruits
Thank you so much for this video! I heard my grandma asked my parents if I was “joining a cult” when they told her I’m starting to discern religious life. This video definitely helps!
Well you haven't joined one of the more extreme ones. If believing in a talking snake and accepting a blood sacrifice on a cross helps you, then I wish you the best :) I personally cannot ever look back at any Abrahamic religion. Their flaws are very obvious with a bit of critical thinking.
@@ciscornBIG I implied no such thing. I just think accepting a blood sacrifice on a cross to be forgiven is just a convenient way to avoid any accountability for your actions. Christianity is all about that, which is why so many criminals turn to the bible because it makes them feel better about themselves. It's easier to seek forgiveness from an imaginary friend than it is to seek it from those that you have wronged.
I think it was Jimmy Akin who said something like this: that cult is not a very useful word because it mostly just says that you don’t like a particular religious sect. I would prefer adjective descriptors: If a sect is controlling, say it’s controlling. If it’s heretical, say it’s heretical. If its doctrines are the result of mental illness or fabrication, then say that. The problem is that sometimes people just willingly believe stupid things; the Heavens Gate people, for example, were all free to leave-and at least one if not more, came back because they preferred the sect to the outside world. We want it to look as evil as possible because all those poor people died, but I think part of the problem is having a charismatic leader who’s out of touch with reality, and impressionable idealistic people on a search for meaning-where those two lines intersect, disaster is always possible.
How to know if you in cult check list? 1. Are you allow to leave freely? 2. Are leaving is extremely hard and costly, it mostly cost money, relationship, family, etc? 3. Does leader control your life, your money, your food, your schedule, your free time, what books to read, who to talk, where to go, who to love? 4. Does leader make mental punishment when you go agaisnt their will. Public shame, take your money for punishment. Make you feel bad about yourself and demand your loyal to their belief system to re-gain their trust. 5. Educate you is all people in group is good, all outsider is bad. Complete loyal to their teaching will help you better and more superior to all outsider.
Religion for Breakfast does a good job explaining how academics deal with questions like cults, new religious movements, and religions. You will see even in the academic sphere, it’s a hard question to pin down. Cults in the modern sense (rather than cultus in Latin) need not even have explicit religious elements; multi level marketing schemes, yoga clubs, and so on often form cults without any religious element. Similarly New religious movements may look like this, but lack the abusive elements of cults as we use the word. RFB released the aforementioned video quite a few years ago, and I’d highly recommend his analysis.
I think you hit upon the answer near the end of your video, at 13:15, but then you don't explore what that means. If you go back to the Oxford Dictionary's primary definition of the word cult you will see that it is not a pejorative word. Also, you will see the church will often use it in the non-pejorative context when referring to certain devotions or practices. It has only been relatively recently that the word has taken on a negative meaning which we should probably do our best of removing. Since Oxford defines the word cult as "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object" then that should be the way we use it.
The living God took me out of the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit showed me they were praying to statues. There is only one mediator between God and Man that is Jesus Christ.
Do you tink that when Jesus will came back he's gonna want to know if you are protestant or eastern orthodox or Roman catholic or batist or pentecostal? Do you tink he is gonna save people based on what confession or he gonna instead save people's by the faith they have in him and how they lived that faith ( work) ? The fact is that catholic Do not worship statue and graved image and protestant are not heretic comdem to hell for rejecting the catholic church!! You even have protestant that tink you have to make babbling noise whit their mouth thinking they showing the gift of tongues!! They are no different than a catholic who tink he is more pious because he pray is rosary tinking that it gonna weight in the balance! Or you have catholic who worship one statue of Jesus because he is ignorant or misguided yes that happen like you have protestant who listen to their pastor instead of obeying the command of Jesus!!! They are all misguided!!! My point is beware of any spirit who take you afar from your church... maybe it is a demon disguised as a angel of light!!! Focus on your relationship to the lord in a theologicaly sound way. Be bless
If someone is praying to statues themselves or the people as if they were God then it would be wrong. But it is not different from asking a living Christian to pray for you, and your prayers do not end in the saints because they are not God and have no power to answer them. Nor are they mediators between us and the Father because, as Catholics would affirm, that role is filled by Jesus alone.
My fellow team mate asked me when we were in High School if a certain religion in our country is a cult because they had a registration as a company and require their followers to pay a percentage of their salaries. I said I don't know back then. 3 years has passed and still questions. This helped me direct my thoughts though. Thank you Father!
I saw the movie "Midsommar" (beware - this is a very strong film to watch). The most interesting comment I've heard about cults was a comment I've heard about the film. The claim was that the cult takes advantage of spiritually hungry people. The main character was very much emotionally compromised. Interesting.
There are a lot of religious cults out there, though. Critical thinking is a key thing. If a religion allows you to critically question everything, it's a good thing.
This was a good watch. To give my two cents there is no difference between a cult and a religion because cults are simply small and/or new religious movements that are seen as existing outside mainstream society. For example Mormonism generally isn't considered a cult in the United States despite its newness because it has a large, geographically concentrated following and as a derivative of Christianity it fits more seamlessly into mainstream society than some world religions. In China on the other hand Mormonism is considered a cult because it's a relatively new religion with a very small following in the country and it being a Christian derivative further separates it from mainstream society. It all comes down to cultural perspective.
Father, what you said in the end matches something I've read from St. Josemaria's "The Way" (just switching the word cult for "cliques"): "May I never see 'cliques' developing in your work. It would make a mockery of the apostolate: for if, in the end, the 'clique' got control of a universal undertaking, how quickly that universal undertaking would be reduced to a clique itself!"
Fr. Casey, I've recently heard much about 'Christian Nationalism'. I have heard some things about it but, not exactly sure what it is. Could you speak on this topic? TIA
The difference between a cult and a religion is that a cult does not respect the individual conscience. Pope John Paul 2 acknowledged that a catholic can descent if after much prayer and spiritual guidance cannot agree with a teaching. A cult leader cannot accept any descent at all.
Any group can feel like or turn into a cult; marriage, school, sports team, etc. I would narrow things to “formation of conscience within a supportive environment of free choice.” Any extreme deficiency can manifest as a cult.
the most widely accepted way of determining a cult that I have heard of is the BITE model. It stands for Behavior control, Information control, Thought control, and Emotion control. When put up to the BITE model the catholic church fares pretty well, since the church only tries to control your behavior and to a very limited extent your thoughts.
Thanks Fr. Casey for an insightfull and important discus as always. I sure hope that young people always use their reasoning faculties, even with faith matters, for that is why God gave us brains. God bless you real good, Amen
I am far from Catholic but feel that calling it a cult is just a thoughtless insult. However, I wonder how free a friar or monk is to leave if they change their mind and want to leave. Are they free to leave? Is there a time period that they must be in the order and then are they free to leave? Concerning the guy's question around the 8:00 mark, if someone goes into it of their free will and can get out when they want, what problem is there with that? I think of the Catholic religion as being more heterodox than anything, having serious doctrinal errors, however, calling it a cult immediately cuts off all dialogue.
Steven Hassan's BITE definition is good. Let's see how that fits. Behavior Control - Summary: Oh heck yes! 1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality - Yup. 2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals - Yup. 3. Need to ask permission for major decisions - Yup. 4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors - Yup. 5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative). - I don't know. 6. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails - Yup. 7. Rigid rules and regulations - Yup. 8. Need for obedience and dependency - Yup. Information Control - Summary: No. 1. Use of deception - I don't know. 2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged - I don't think so? 3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines - No. 4. Spying on other members is encouraged - Never heard of it. 5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda - Matter of opinion? 6. Unethical use of confession - I don't think so? Thought Control - Summary: Yes? 1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as “Truth” - Yes. 2. Adopt “loaded” language (characterized by “thought-terminating clichés”). Words are the tools we use to think with. These “special” words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous “buzz words”. - Yes. 3. Only “good” and “proper” thoughts are encouraged. - Yes. 4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down “reality testing” by stopping “negative” thoughts and allowing only “good” thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. - Yes. 5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate - I don't think so? 6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful - No. Emotional Control - Summary: No 1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings. - Not that I'm aware. 2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s. - I don't think so? 3. Feeling-stopping (with number 4, Excessive use of guilt). Like thought-stopping, this is the automatic suppression or blocking of feelings that are not acceptable by the cult identity- such as feeling \”homesick\” or feeling \”depressed\” or feeling \”resentful\”. - No. 4. Excessive use of guilt - Yes. 5. Excessive use of fear - No. 6. Extremes of emotional highs and lows. - No. 7. Ritual and often public confession of “sins”. - No. 8. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group. - I don't know. So Catholic Monastic orders seem to only fit two of the four categories, so it's not a cult. The Catholic Church as a whole only fits one. So, no,. you are not in a cult.
This should have been posted closer to Halloween, Father. The music is ominous and you are speaking/teaching the difference between church and cult. Definitely needs to be addressed and Definitely scary stuff.
I used to belong to an organization that required me to wear the same thing as everyone else, told me where to live, controlled what I ate, who I could associate with, where I could go and when. I went through a formal indoctrination, and they would have punished me if I had tried to leave. It was the US Army. But, you do sign a contract with a limited duration (for enlisted folks, officers are different as I understand it), so you only get in trouble for leaving prior to the end of the contract, so that's a clear differentiator.
In a Catholic religious order, there are clear rules about how the members relate to each other. It is also clear (at it least it should be) that no-one is allowed to order anything that is against faith or morals. There is also a higher Church authority outside of the community that can be called in if there is abuse or severe strife.
Official definitions aside, what I would say is that a cult not only punishes apostasy, but any deviation from a leader's idea of doctrine with zero room for individual interpretation or understanding. To make someone a blank slate and fill their entire being with preordained ideology.
I might also add with a cult the leader refuses to be questioned about their authority that would be a difference from Christianity because at least any good Christian leader should welcome their beliefs being questioned because sometimes the line where we cross from strict Orthodox Christian beliefs and become a cult is hair thin remember Branch davidian started as an order of the Adventist and so that line where they moved from being an orthodox order of a Christian denomination and a call was very thin but once they crossed that line they kept going and that's how they became a cult
I think academia should adopt a new term for "abusive religious groups". From what I understand, the current scholarly term for groups most think of as cults is "new religious movement" and that doesn't cover ancient groups that can possibly be abusive and it implies there's something wrong about "new" religions.
1:51 Could it possibly be that the sociological and psychological definitions of "cult" are pretty irrelevant to good or bad in morality of groups? That studying sociology and psychology is a fault in modern seminaries. There is obviously a different sense of cult too. The guys who believe weird things and this is kept up by a kind of mind control ... after going to a modern seminary, which included sociology and psychology - and some clearly off base observations on the Bible too - are you sure you aren't in a cult?
Good job. I appreciate your constant pursuit of discernment. I’ve seen priests attack your statements and views with nothing substantial; just some gaslighting & double-talk.
i am running out of time, so i havent finished watching. but, question: how did a pricey apple computer find its way into the rooms of a Franciscan? i've wondered this while watching your vids.
It's probably borrowed from the order. Video editing takes some computer power, so it's a justifiable tool for his brand of outreach. He almost certainly does not own it. It's like your job giving you a laptop to work from home
To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly defining what a cult is. But I know it when I see it.
For me the answer is "Are you allowed to leave?" If yes not a cult, if no a cult.
It's also a dead giveaway if the guy at the top is sleeping with everyone's wife.
I was thinking of this, but there is that element in certain religions of excommunication or once you leave you can't come back which isn't quite like what we would normally think of with a cult but certainly could be construed to have a coercive tone.
Cult members, most of the time, are allowed to leave. They just experience shame and judgement from others when they do
That's a huge aspect in my opinion. I used to be a Jehovah's Witness and they don't let you leave.
Good point
My personal definition is a that an organization is a cult is based on how they treat you if you attempt to leave. The Catholic faith is not a cult. You're free to walk away without consequence from members within the organization at any time you choose.
If you don't go to Sunday Mass, it's a mortal sin...
@@forthewin369 Correct. But no one from the Catholic Church, no clergy, is going to come hunt you down or try to discredit you. Hence my statement of "without consequence from members within."
Are 7th day Adventist a cult?
@@esthert9146 I don't know enough about them to give an opinion.
@@esthert9146 I would say they are a religion. However, are they Christian in a sense that they practice a Trinidadian baptism?
I’m thinking in RCIA we had someone who came from that religion and had to be baptized conditionally because of that.
I grew up as Jehovah's Witness, and never considered it a cult until I thought about leaving 😬
My mother was in the thick of it too and all of her family does not talk to her at all because she left. Only her parents and siblings talk to her
I was also a JW. Got DF'd and that was about as cult like as it gets. As I continue to watch the video he pretty much describes the JWs as a cult.
It's healthy to reflect on whether the organizations we are part of share the negative qualities of cults. Thank you for raising these questions, Father Casey.
There is another thing to point out here, and it's that _cults_ don't always have a religious-like facade, some of them are presented as a leadership/entrepreneurship seminars. Some people use the term of "coercive organizations" instead of "cult" to be more objective with the meaning.
Yes. I think NXIVM is an example of that.
I think "coercive organization" is a good step in dissociating the abusive behaviors of these groups from the anthropologically useful word "cult" to describe religious practice. Still feels like it ticks some but not all of the boxes, though. I suppose language is...complex and difficult to negotiate!
Yeah, that's really what Scientology is about.
As a former atheist (baptized about a year and a half ago, now Catholic) I saw both as one and the same. I've been wondering how to better distinguish the two, thank you so much!
Can I ask you what made you convert? What evidence or argument did it for you?
God bless you!
I would also like to know why you decided atheism was no longer for you.
@@allykat5899 Coming from practically a disbelief in all things Catholic:
Subjective morality, People can't resurrect from the dead, time could be cyclical, Jesus didn't start a specific church, the pope is a “look at the video title” leader, the first cause couldn't be rational/moral, religion is meant to control, people can change “parts” and clothes, neutralizing or separating said “parts” from each other are good, “lack of baby” and "helping" our genetics are okay, “people of different types”icsm is okay in right measure, “pleasure” and media for it are natural and good, “substances” are okay in measure, “party for the end” is okay and just an expression or choice whether or not there was a “party”, “the evil one”ism is better than Christianity.
All these things and more I used to do/believe and God had to convince me otherwise. He got to me in the only way He could; What is true? I thought I knew the answers to all these things so I tried to prove myself right. I started looking into religion when I saw a random post saying that Jesus rose from the dead. I was like "that's literally crazy talk" little did I know God was already working in me before that to be open to such craziness that I was willing to be convinced otherwise. It wasn't just one thing, it was a radical change of my whole person in like maybe 2 years after I had already changed political and moral ideologies shortly before that. I used to get so angry about politics I argued myself closer to Christ, and He took what He could get and ran.
Unfortunately it's gone a little too far in terms of "following Christ" (really not Him) combined with a host of mental issues, so I need a lot of spiritual guidance from priests and therapists to not be so scrupulous or mislead but I wouldn't have it any other way. If it's between being how I was or walking this way of life I'm gonna choose this. Thank you for asking! I don't often get asked about life questions, I appreciate you.
I would have worded this slightly differently to make expose evil but TH-cam unfortunately didn't like the comment. Thanks to @Paul Cooper for pointing it out
@@paulcooper8818 I posted a reply for you
Wow. I know I am extremely late to read this but man, this is perhaps one of the most in depth dives I've seen to a complicated subject in the shortest possible time, and I really have to say your honesty is amazing. I really hope I can see more content of yours like this in the near future! Keep it up!
Cult-like behaviour can certainly infect mainstream churches. It's one of the reasons I warm to quiet, self-contained priests more than big personalities or great orators. I want someone to deliver the sacraments, not be someone to admire, except in their lack of desire for admiration.
It depends. Is the person using their charisma to draw people to God or are they drawing people to themselves? God gives us gifts intending us to use them to draw people to Him, to do good for other people.
Great video! I asked my freshman year Theology teacher (a Jesuit novice) the same question a while back, mostly as a snarky yet friendly remark. I’ve changed a lot since lol. He responded with much more simplistic versions of the arguments you brought up, so it was great to see you dive into this topic in detail. Nice work.
Father Casey, you are a courageous truth teller and wise beyond your years. I’ve learned so much from you by watching your videos. You have helped to revive my faith in the Catholic Church and it’s teachings.
Why do they call these guys "fathers" when they aren't (or at least aren't supposed to be) fathers?
I don't normally respond to videos, but thank you Fr Casey fo addressing the question, "What is a Cult?"
Unfortunately, I have heard too many "nones" say the church is a cult and frankly that truely makes me concerned. You are one of the first catholic priest's that I know of to address this concern. In today's environment I think it is more important than you know.
The B.I.T.E model is great assessment method. Behavior, information, thought, and emotional influence are ways people effect each other. There's healthy and unhealthy levels for all of these things. Religious orders CAN run on the unhealthy spectrum or can respect the individuality of members while in community. The word has separate definitions in theology, sociology, psychology etc. I used to be a Jehovah's Witnesses and they won't let you leave or disagree in any fashion. They are lead by a group of leaders and is 150 years old but they're still a cult.
The word "cult" has taken on its own (probably negative) connotation, in the post-modern world.
Let's remember, the word "cult" used to be used synonymously with the word "culture."
If by "used to" you are referring to the original latin words, coined two thousand years ago? Sure. Since then however, a bit of time has passed. Cult and culture have pretty much never referred to the same thing since....
Agriculture involves cultivating an acre (agri) of land, as "culture" involves a cultivating of values. A "cult" is an organization that cultivates - the culture is the byproduct - in the way a scribe inscribes scripture, a painter depicts a picture, a sculptor sculpts a sculpture, a meter metes a measure, and so on. There, now you, the reader, are one step closer to being fluent in Latin.
Thank you, Fr. Casey for your insightful comments. I remember the Jonestown deaths, the "Moonies", the Hare Krishna's and others. People would actually have to be rescued from such; unfortunately, that didn't always work. In becoming a Benedictine, no one ever controlled my mindset, and we were free to leave at anytime. Although one can have great devotion to another, that's not worship. Generally, the leaders of the cults want their followers to worship them and regularly manipulate. Thanks again for everything you do. PAX.
I am reminded of a book I read; The Codex, by Douglas Preston. It is NOT a religious book; it is an adventure thriller of dubious ethics. But there is a character in it who has spent his whole life bouncing from one cult to another looking for meaning. On his deathbed, his father tells him:
"Here's the rule of thumb; if they want all your money, the religion is bullshit. If doesn't cost anything to pray in a church."
I think that is a good rule. If they ask for donations, fine. If you have to give up everything to the faith just to join it is probably a cult. Give up everything just to join, as opposed to the Catholic Church, where you can choose to do that if you want to join a holy order, but can also just go once a week.
"A community must have a center. It must have a purpose. It must have a unifying purpose. And it must be stronger than the will and intent of any person. It must have the Power of Heaven within it to be true, to be lasting and to carry itself forward into a world that will be ever more chaotic within the Great Waves of change."
*_The New Message from God » The Worldwide Community of God’s New Message_*
Thank you for sharing.
I saw a video once where a couple of guys who used to be in groups which... Are arguably cults, use an attempt at a clinical model for cults on different religions to determine things like "How much does this religion control the thoughts of its people/ does this group have thought crime as doctrine?" Among others. IIRC their conclusion on the Catholic church at large from an outside point of view was "Cult like but definitely not a cult".
I am discerning a vocation in Carmel and this vid is so helpful for framing the parameters of discernment.
If you are free to leave/not practice the religion then it is not a cult, if you are forced to stay against your will then a cult, that’s how I see it
I really liked this video and the fact that you were willing to dive deep into the idea instead of being scared and avoidant speaks volumes to me about your character.
I'm LDS and am often accused of being in a cult. It's always hurtful and confusing to hear that. So i appreciated the topic. Thank you
If the Franciscan order were a cult Father Casey wouldn't be on TH-cam acting on his own initiative.
Father Casey, blink twice if you are kidnapped.... :)
@@cutebeanie 😁😃.
Are the Free Masons, Illuminati & Rosicrucians cults?
Not all cults are controlling to the extreme.
If R. Catholicism is regarded a cult, I'll be regarded as a cultist which is quite fine as I'm an unapologetic follower/believer/worshipper & all that goes with being a Christian of the ultimate Head of the Church Jesus Christ Son of The Living God & God Himself.😊
@@patthompson8591 Im catholic! I was just trying to crack a joke
Dunno about the others, but the freemasons may be a mystical order, but they aren't a cult. I was a member from 2016 to late last year. When I decided I didn't belong anymore and resigned from the Craft nobody had any problem with me leaving, just asked me to keep in touch.
The word cult in Spanish “culto” can have a positive… in Spanish culto or to “offer cult” (rendir culto) means worship and can be used in relation to our all Loving God… while the negative in English “cult” in Spanish is called a “secta” or a sect 🧏🏽♀️
People also tend to forget that there are political cults. Just ask Dr. Janna Lalich, who says she was formerly in a radical political cult. Wired did an excellent video with her discussing cults.
Well said. Sometimes we should critique or evaluate whatever group we are in. School, church, friends or even our own families.
I always appreciate your willingness to grapple with hard questions and find nuanced answers. I agree with your assessment, it's more of a spectrum than two absolute categories.
The B.I.T.E model provides a pretty good basis of what a cult is and how to decide if an organization is a cult or not.
I generally feel that cults contain destructive qualities, have problems with visitors "off the street" & serious issues letting members leave.
Truly food for thought. Thank you, Fr. Casey!
Good to see you back Fr Casey. I find your comments insightful and thought provoking. God Bless.
Important to question and discuss these issues. Thank you
I thought about this a lot over the past several years and I think that the intention question is a very important one. I also was lucky enough to encounter some very good thinkers who helped me to see that "religion" is not just organized, but that the elements that define organized religion are functionally found all over our greater social interactions; that the things which are religious are not limited to what we link automatically with religions.
In that, it became much easier to see how people can be swayed into unfortunate ideas and beliefs especially when they do lack the guidance of good organized religion (ideally in my opinion, The Church). Humans seem to have a natural desire to these religious elements of the world and society. They naturally seek beyond themselves and when they don't have something solid of religion to lean against, they might find themselves hopelessly floating or they might latch onto these idea groups which function religiously or worse an actual detrimental cult.
One of the things which set in stone my return to the Catholic Church was coming to understand that she is very open to and even encouraging of questions and of discovery, and that she is in fact seeking truth in all of these "rules" and ways. Cults don't allow for that. Of course, there is a line to be drawn between a religion which is more strict but maybe there is simply a line there that can't be defined and maybe some of these groups do tread close to it, but you are correct: it is very much a visceral reaction that is somewhat lost on younger people or people who have come to see the world more relativistically.
TLDR
@@rethinkcps2116 hilarious
Father keep up your wonderful Utube videos. I live in Australia and have never seen anything like you do in this country. You are a pleasure to listen to. Thank you
0:42 & 1:16: “ _that guy isn't in a cult - that's the life of any religious_ "
2:11
3:17 I agree! *Ppl who reject social constructs*
4:19 the line is blurred between religion & cults
PROBLEMS
4:52 1️⃣ it's easy to give oversimplified definitions that aren't clear enough
==> 5:28 a better définition: having a charismatic leader isn't enough
5:57 cult leaders override any other sources: there's no room for questioning his or her authority
* individuality is suppressed and people spend all their time in groups
7:30
8:45 2️⃣ *many members of cults & religion have similar practices but what differentiates it is the reason behind the action*
For example (10:19), asceticism isn't always bad ==> body cleansing methods like diets are frequently used by regular people who deem it good to do it from time to time
10:39 when you compare religion & cults it's inevitable that there's going to be a lot of similarities in practice, thus the focus shouldn't be on wether they do the same things but rather, why they do them
11:07 3️⃣ inflexible definitions
* Built on logical fallacies, promote unhealthy behavior
13:12 4️⃣ the difference isn't binary
* There are no cult apologist bc it carries a negative connotation
* It's a continuum
*Just because it's not a cult doesn't mean it's above reproach either. There are cult like tendencies sometimes in great organization*
I'm pleased to hear these young people. They try to articulate a reasonable answer. Makes me feel hopeful for the future
I have worked for several "eco-villages", where I taught and learned sustainable construction. I have had to actually deal with this same question, people telling me I'm in a cult.
I love your self-reflection and humility here. Great channel
Cults tend to mimic religion.
A funny joke would be a religion is just a cult + time 🤣
The only difference is the Catholic Church is based on witness accounts of the truth.
You’re absolutely truly warrior 💪👍🏻keep going brother
I took a college course on cults, and one of the major questions was whether the term "cult" is an accurate or useful descriptor. Definitions of "cults" are often broad and can attach negative connotations to innocent groups. You can break a lot of things down and place them into the category of cult.
A brave man. Thank u Father. I was in a Prayer group and the Leaders were very controlling. I left.
Having spent 20 years in a cult I might lend some clarity. For me a cult is defined by its method as opposed to its doctrines. A cult is demonstrated by how it implements its beliefs as compared to what the details are. Cults are almost exclusively a projection and extension of the leader/founder who is 99% of the time an extreme Narcissist. A Narcissist isn't just someone who has a comb up his sleeve, but is a person with a permanent personality disorder, driven by a lifelong consumption to have power and superiority over other people, whilst being extremely fragile and sensitive to any form of criticism. The cult is the constructed environment they make to sustain these drives. There is no real belief in any of the teachings, just that the leader must always be in charge and can never be questioned or threatened in anyway.
4:15 when he says that it rejects social constructs be spot on of why monk orders would be seen as cults by modern society. Their oath to poverty, celibacy, adherence to Benedictine Rules, they rise at 3:00 am, their habits, and little use of modern devices. They choose this over what society can't fathom living without. But I sense a lot of double standards when it's Christian orders and not Buddhist orders who are just as strict if not stricter.
Father: all my admiration and respect for you and your congregation. Thanks God we have you all as guides, examples and friends.
The humility of the lass at 8.30 who said she wouldn't give an opinion. You're looking at intellectual honesty there. Good to see.
Pretty good topic, Father, and your honest answer is sound - a cult is different from a religion or other social grouping of likeminded people based upon a subjective, negative determination of what they strongly believe, how they live as a group, and how the group or group’s leader controls its members.
Your discussion made me think about, within the Catholic Church, the organization Opus Dei. I’m not inclined to consider Opus Dei a cult within the Catholic Church, in spite of some of their more extreme practices to regularly sanctify themselves in a way that celebrates Jesus’ sacrifice and suffering during the passion. However, Opis Dei does seem to proselytize the Gospel by focusing or prioritizing the membership of people in power or near power, something I unfortunately perceive to be an effort to wield power to influence both the Church and secular society at large. I support their basic ends, promoting individuals to get closer to God and thus seek to be more Christ-like, but I also seriously question Opus Dei’s means of going about it.
Hear me out: y’all should be regularly reaching out to separating or recently separated service members, especially those who served in the combat arms. 1) They are already use to service and fraternal living, and have accepted (and in some cases have) put their lives on the line for their brothers or complete strangers. 2) They often feel lost and overwhelmed when they leave the service 3) It won’t be easy, because they’re probably separating from the service because they want some sort of “freedom”, but at least knowing that this is an option may lead some good men to you 4) especially if with the wars in the Middle East, many troops are familiar with dealing with difficulties cultures and language barriers 5) most of these men have really good hearts which unfortunately may have been scared/hardened by evil.
Idk I would’ve really liked more of a Church influence while I was serving/when I separated. It maybe an underserved area that may yield many fruits
Thank you so much for this video! I heard my grandma asked my parents if I was “joining a cult” when they told her I’m starting to discern religious life. This video definitely helps!
Well you haven't joined one of the more extreme ones.
If believing in a talking snake and accepting a blood sacrifice on a cross helps you, then I wish you the best :)
I personally cannot ever look back at any Abrahamic religion. Their flaws are very obvious with a bit of critical thinking.
@@LisaAnn777hubris. Why do you imply no one else has thoughts but you?
@@ciscornBIG I implied no such thing. I just think accepting a blood sacrifice on a cross to be forgiven is just a convenient way to avoid any accountability for your actions. Christianity is all about that, which is why so many criminals turn to the bible because it makes them feel better about themselves.
It's easier to seek forgiveness from an imaginary friend than it is to seek it from those that you have wronged.
I think it was Jimmy Akin who said something like this: that cult is not a very useful word because it mostly just says that you don’t like a particular religious sect. I would prefer adjective descriptors: If a sect is controlling, say it’s controlling. If it’s heretical, say it’s heretical. If its doctrines are the result of mental illness or fabrication, then say that. The problem is that sometimes people just willingly believe stupid things; the Heavens Gate people, for example, were all free to leave-and at least one if not more, came back because they preferred the sect to the outside world. We want it to look as evil as possible because all those poor people died, but I think part of the problem is having a charismatic leader who’s out of touch with reality, and impressionable idealistic people on a search for meaning-where those two lines intersect, disaster is always possible.
How to know if you in cult check list?
1. Are you allow to leave freely?
2. Are leaving is extremely hard and costly, it mostly cost money, relationship, family, etc?
3. Does leader control your life, your money, your food, your schedule, your free time, what books to read, who to talk, where to go, who to love?
4. Does leader make mental punishment when you go agaisnt their will. Public shame, take your money for punishment. Make you feel bad about yourself and demand your loyal to their belief system to re-gain their trust.
5. Educate you is all people in group is good, all outsider is bad. Complete loyal to their teaching will help you better and more superior to all outsider.
Religion for Breakfast does a good job explaining how academics deal with questions like cults, new religious movements, and religions. You will see even in the academic sphere, it’s a hard question to pin down. Cults in the modern sense (rather than cultus in Latin) need not even have explicit religious elements; multi level marketing schemes, yoga clubs, and so on often form cults without any religious element. Similarly New religious movements may look like this, but lack the abusive elements of cults as we use the word.
RFB released the aforementioned video quite a few years ago, and I’d highly recommend his analysis.
I think you hit upon the answer near the end of your video, at 13:15, but then you don't explore what that means. If you go back to the Oxford Dictionary's primary definition of the word cult you will see that it is not a pejorative word. Also, you will see the church will often use it in the non-pejorative context when referring to certain devotions or practices. It has only been relatively recently that the word has taken on a negative meaning which we should probably do our best of removing. Since Oxford defines the word cult as "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object" then that should be the way we use it.
I surely appreciate you and all your Teachings. May the good Lord guide and protect you.
The living God took me out of the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit showed me they were praying to statues. There is only one mediator between God and Man that is Jesus Christ.
Do you tink that when Jesus will came back he's gonna want to know if you are protestant or eastern orthodox or Roman catholic or batist or pentecostal? Do you tink he is gonna save people based on what confession or he gonna instead save people's by the faith they have in him and how they lived that faith ( work) ? The fact is that catholic Do not worship statue and graved image and protestant are not heretic comdem to hell for rejecting the catholic church!! You even have protestant that tink you have to make babbling noise whit their mouth thinking they showing the gift of tongues!! They are no different than a catholic who tink he is more pious because he pray is rosary tinking that it gonna weight in the balance! Or you have catholic who worship one statue of Jesus because he is ignorant or misguided yes that happen like you have protestant who listen to their pastor instead of obeying the command of Jesus!!! They are all misguided!!! My point is beware of any spirit who take you afar from your church... maybe it is a demon disguised as a angel of light!!! Focus on your relationship to the lord in a theologicaly sound way. Be bless
If someone is praying to statues themselves or the people as if they were God then it would be wrong. But it is not different from asking a living Christian to pray for you, and your prayers do not end in the saints because they are not God and have no power to answer them. Nor are they mediators between us and the Father because, as Catholics would affirm, that role is filled by Jesus alone.
Father Casey's search history "Dramatic music to make you think"
I was thinking about it for a while now, thank you for bringing this up
My fellow team mate asked me when we were in High School if a certain religion in our country is a cult because they had a registration as a company and require their followers to pay a percentage of their salaries.
I said I don't know back then.
3 years has passed and still questions. This helped me direct my thoughts though.
Thank you Father!
God bless you Fr. Casey🙏❤️✝️
I saw the movie "Midsommar" (beware - this is a very strong film to watch). The most interesting comment I've heard about cults was a comment I've heard about the film. The claim was that the cult takes advantage of spiritually hungry people. The main character was very much emotionally compromised. Interesting.
There are a lot of religious cults out there, though. Critical thinking is a key thing. If a religion allows you to critically question everything, it's a good thing.
This was a good watch. To give my two cents there is no difference between a cult and a religion because cults are simply small and/or new religious movements that are seen as existing outside mainstream society. For example Mormonism generally isn't considered a cult in the United States despite its newness because it has a large, geographically concentrated following and as a derivative of Christianity it fits more seamlessly into mainstream society than some world religions. In China on the other hand Mormonism is considered a cult because it's a relatively new religion with a very small following in the country and it being a Christian derivative further separates it from mainstream society. It all comes down to cultural perspective.
Father, what you said in the end matches something I've read from St. Josemaria's "The Way" (just switching the word cult for "cliques"):
"May I never see 'cliques' developing in your work. It would make a mockery of the apostolate: for if, in the end, the 'clique' got control of a universal undertaking, how quickly that universal undertaking would be reduced to a clique itself!"
Fr. Casey, I've recently heard much about 'Christian Nationalism'. I have heard some things about it but, not exactly sure what it is. Could you speak on this topic? TIA
I have been in a cult
And
I appreciate this video
Thanks ❤
Has a Mac in the background, but "I'm not in a cult!" -LoL
The difference between a cult and a religion is that a cult does not respect the individual conscience. Pope John Paul 2 acknowledged that a catholic can descent if after much prayer and spiritual guidance cannot agree with a teaching. A cult leader cannot accept any descent at all.
Any group can feel like or turn into a cult; marriage, school, sports team, etc.
I would narrow things to “formation of conscience within a supportive environment of free choice.”
Any extreme deficiency can manifest as a cult.
As always Fr. Casey wa wonderful and thought provoking video. ❤
Great work on this one!
the most widely accepted way of determining a cult that I have heard of is the BITE model. It stands for Behavior control, Information control, Thought control, and Emotion control. When put up to the BITE model the catholic church fares pretty well, since the church only tries to control your behavior and to a very limited extent your thoughts.
Jesus tells us how to spot them. "by their fruit, you shall know them."
For me I think the answer and difference lies in the purpose of the organization.
Thanks Fr. Casey for an insightfull and important discus as always. I sure hope that young people always use their reasoning faculties, even with faith matters, for that is why God gave us brains. God bless you real good, Amen
I am far from Catholic but feel that calling it a cult is just a thoughtless insult. However, I wonder how free a friar or monk is to leave if they change their mind and want to leave. Are they free to leave? Is there a time period that they must be in the order and then are they free to leave? Concerning the guy's question around the 8:00 mark, if someone goes into it of their free will and can get out when they want, what problem is there with that?
I think of the Catholic religion as being more heterodox than anything, having serious doctrinal errors, however, calling it a cult immediately cuts off all dialogue.
Definition for CULT: "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object."
Steven Hassan's BITE definition is good. Let's see how that fits.
Behavior Control - Summary: Oh heck yes!
1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality - Yup.
2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals - Yup.
3. Need to ask permission for major decisions - Yup.
4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors - Yup.
5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative). - I don't know.
6. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails - Yup.
7. Rigid rules and regulations - Yup.
8. Need for obedience and dependency - Yup.
Information Control - Summary: No.
1. Use of deception - I don't know.
2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged - I don't think so?
3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines - No.
4. Spying on other members is encouraged - Never heard of it.
5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda - Matter of opinion?
6. Unethical use of confession - I don't think so?
Thought Control - Summary: Yes?
1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as “Truth” - Yes.
2. Adopt “loaded” language (characterized by “thought-terminating clichés”). Words are the tools we use to think with. These “special” words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous “buzz words”. - Yes.
3. Only “good” and “proper” thoughts are encouraged. - Yes.
4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down “reality testing” by stopping “negative” thoughts and allowing only “good” thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. - Yes.
5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate - I don't think so?
6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful - No.
Emotional Control - Summary: No
1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings. - Not that I'm aware.
2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s. - I don't think so?
3. Feeling-stopping (with number 4, Excessive use of guilt). Like thought-stopping, this is the automatic suppression or blocking of feelings that are not acceptable by the cult identity- such as feeling \”homesick\” or feeling \”depressed\” or feeling \”resentful\”. - No.
4. Excessive use of guilt - Yes.
5. Excessive use of fear - No.
6. Extremes of emotional highs and lows. - No.
7. Ritual and often public confession of “sins”. - No.
8. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group. - I don't know.
So Catholic Monastic orders seem to only fit two of the four categories, so it's not a cult. The Catholic Church as a whole only fits one. So, no,. you are not in a cult.
Fr. Casey, are you in a musical theater group? You know, singing hymns, repeated rites (performances), costumes (robes), etc.
This was very interesting and I appreciate your analysis of the question.
Also, the apple logo monitor in the background was strangely distracting.
This should have been posted closer to Halloween, Father. The music is ominous and you are speaking/teaching the difference between church and cult. Definitely needs to be addressed and Definitely scary stuff.
Good point, thanks fr. Casey❤️
It's about degree of personal autonomy retained by members and whether leaders can be held accountable and removed or at least restrained.
Thankyou, Fr Casey, patiently waiting for your review on Jesus Revolution.🕯️👏
Have you read "Engaging with God: A Biblical Theology" by David G. Peterson? I'm still churning his discussions on cultic practices.
Excellent video brother! Thank u! God Bless u
I used to belong to an organization that required me to wear the same thing as everyone else, told me where to live, controlled what I ate, who I could associate with, where I could go and when. I went through a formal indoctrination, and they would have punished me if I had tried to leave. It was the US Army. But, you do sign a contract with a limited duration (for enlisted folks, officers are different as I understand it), so you only get in trouble for leaving prior to the end of the contract, so that's a clear differentiator.
But Father Casey, you can leave anytime you like...
David Koresh is portrayed one way by those that blew him away, while others who were their own person spoke well of him.
Father Casey, I have a question that I wanna ask u personally but Idk what platforms I could DM you on that I actually have installed
He was 30 years old in 1994.
“If it walks like a cult and it quacks like a cult….well it’s either a duck or a cult.” -Caitlin Doughty
In a Catholic religious order, there are clear rules about how the members relate to each other. It is also clear (at it least it should be) that no-one is allowed to order anything that is against faith or morals. There is also a higher Church authority outside of the community that can be called in if there is abuse or severe strife.
Official definitions aside, what I would say is that a cult not only punishes apostasy, but any deviation from a leader's idea of doctrine with zero room for individual interpretation or understanding. To make someone a blank slate and fill their entire being with preordained ideology.
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. The technical definition of a cult
I might also add with a cult the leader refuses to be questioned about their authority that would be a difference from Christianity because at least any good Christian leader should welcome their beliefs being questioned because sometimes the line where we cross from strict Orthodox Christian beliefs and become a cult is hair thin remember Branch davidian started as an order of the Adventist and so that line where they moved from being an orthodox order of a Christian denomination and a call was very thin but once they crossed that line they kept going and that's how they became a cult
I think academia should adopt a new term for "abusive religious groups". From what I understand, the current scholarly term for groups most think of as cults is "new religious movement" and that doesn't cover ancient groups that can possibly be abusive and it implies there's something wrong about "new" religions.
1:51 Could it possibly be that the sociological and psychological definitions of "cult" are pretty irrelevant to good or bad in morality of groups?
That studying sociology and psychology is a fault in modern seminaries.
There is obviously a different sense of cult too. The guys who believe weird things and this is kept up by a kind of mind control ... after going to a modern seminary, which included sociology and psychology - and some clearly off base observations on the Bible too - are you sure you aren't in a cult?
Good job. I appreciate your constant pursuit of discernment. I’ve seen priests attack your statements and views with nothing substantial; just some gaslighting & double-talk.
i am running out of time, so i havent finished watching. but, question: how did a pricey apple computer find its way into the rooms of a Franciscan? i've wondered this while watching your vids.
It's probably borrowed from the order. Video editing takes some computer power, so it's a justifiable tool for his brand of outreach. He almost certainly does not own it. It's like your job giving you a laptop to work from home
To paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly defining what a cult is. But I know it when I see it.
You cannot cultivate a culture, without a cult. Difficult as that may seem.
At the time of Jesus and at the destruction of the temple do we know of any group that falls into the cult category?