If you look at videos on here of Helio Gracie in his younger days he is practicing bog standard Kodokan Judo (which would make sense from his initial introduction was that). It is only much later that the ground game seems to have been emphasized and Tachi-Waza dropped almost completely. Fusen Ryu had nothing to do with BJJ. Fusen Ryu was not known for its ground game. Not many of those proposing this linkage know that it seems. Fusen Ryu had a heavy Tachi-Waza emphasis like many other Jujutsu Ryu's. But a few Fusen Ryu practitioners were very good at the ground game. However those practitioners never went to Brazil or had anything to do with BJJ. There was much cross polination between Ryu's due to open no-rules competition in the early days though so trying to figure out where the ground game REALLY originated from in terms of its strength is going to be very difficult. You need to start at the Osaka Handa School - not with ideas around Fusen Ryu.
Fusen ryu has Ne waza as well as most styles of Jujutsu but specifically Mataemon Tanabe developed his groundwork more because he focused more in Ne waza and beat several members of the Kodokan, after these events Hajime Isogai train with Kaichiro Samura who was good at Ne waza before entering Kodokan Samura treined in Takenouchi ryu that had a development in Ne waza, Isogai had victory against Tanabe and the Kodokan started training Ne waza, and then emerged Kosen judo, Sambo and Brazilian jiu jitsu.
@@SI-ln6tc Tanabe´s newaza did not come from fusen ryu, came from Tanabe´s competitive experiences. Tanabe influenced Judo´s newaza but not all newaza from Judo came from Tanabe. In Judo there was newaza but not enough to defeat Tanabe, after the challenges from Tanabe to Kodokan Judô improved newaza.
@@SI-ln6tctirou do jujutsu antigo . Fusen ryu. E so isso o europeu tem um historico de roubo , veja a televisao , ai veio uma certa familia aqui no Brasil e encamparam cwrtas coisas .
Well, certainly Tanabe, the man who was famous for challenging the Kodokan, was great at groundwork. And his students, Yukio Tani and Taro Miyake, were also known for their submission acumen. Tani produced instructional material which you can view in a number of places. Some people say that Tanabe, Tani and Miyake were not characteristic of Fusen Ryu in general, but certainly they did not arise out of a vacuum and are at least somewhat representative of a certain Fusen Ryu branch, Tanabe's branch.
There are many branches of Fusen Ryu but there was only one that was known for it's ground work. IIRC that branch was absorbed into the Kodokan. Fusen Ryu was more known for the kusari-gama more than ground work. Brief Intro: I am a Judo Nidan, BJJ (Gracie Barra) Black Belt, and have study several Koryu Jujutsu schools (mainly Asayam Ichden Ryu, Tenshin Shinto Ryu) and lived in Japan for 9 yrs. I also trained in the Bujinkan and Genbukan but it's been years.
Correct. The students of Tanabe (the most famed groundwork specialist of Fusen ryu, known for defeating multiple judokas via ground submission) joined the Kodokan and added their input later. The same situation with Totsuka Yoshin Ryu practitioners who would engage judokas on the ground in the 1880s after judos advantage in throwing skill became apparent. (At the time, challenge matches were also conducted over hardwood floors which was the preferred surface for Koryu jujustsu. And one of the reasons why judo, practiced on tatami, became better skilled in throwing. One clean throw could end the fight.) Same same with Takenouchi ryu on later challenges. A lot of these were later absorbed in to the Kodokan around the turn of the century. Some BJJ's claims to links to other older Koryu instead of the Kodokan is purely retrospective. Before the Kodokan adopted weight divisions, smaller players' tactics naturally included 'straight to ground' rather than risk to be muscled out of an ippon. They would approach with shiko or knee walking (looked more elegant than bum shuffling spread eagled towards the opponent ;p).
I didn't even know this but in Japan there's around like 25 different styles of Ju jutsu or Jiu Jitsu however the correct spelling is legend has it all styles we're fighting each other to see which one was the most effective to train military and police in Japan and the final two were Fusen Ryu vs Kito Ryu or what is known today as Judo and maybe back then Kano Jiu Jitsu because Kano branched off to start his on system with his masters blessings and Kito Ryu Kano Ju Jutsu best Fusen Ryu not by much but about by three victories and the Japan police and military went with Judo
But Tanabe sensei gave his school to Jigoro Kano due the few student that he had, for keep that scence Kano sensei founded Kosen Judo just for ne waza or grappling....Maeda was one of the first judoka when sensei Kano added grappling to Judo but Maeda focus in ne waza technique, something normally in Judo where you can specialize in some kind of technique or form of fight
Mataemon Tanabe ( Fusen Ryu ) disciple of its father Torajiro Tanabe who was the disciple of Mutsugai Takeda and the head and follower of takeds martial art school ( Motsugai takeda was a buddhist Zen priest known as Fusen and founder of Fusen Ryu and a member of takeda clan ) Tanabe taught its ju jutsu ground techniques (ju jitsu) ( which where common since year 1500-1600 sengoku period in japan in many ryu schools as grappling and samurai clan members trained on them) to some judokas on the kodokan after defeating each one of them and they incorporated Fusen ju jitsu into judo. He also exchanged techniques with handa dojo . He was appointed judo kyoshi in 1906, teaching at the Butoku Kai until his retirement in 1922. Theres is a. pdf of 1906 "the game of Ju Jitsu" of Yukio Tani student of Tanabe long before Gracie Jiu jitsu, at that time Tani was calling it "Ju Jitsu" and if you read that. pdf is identical to modern jiu jitsu. So what you call today "Jiu jitsu" is grappling techniques from Fusen Ryu Ju Jitsu (+ some catch wrestling in case of Bjj). In the book of 1906 you can see the use of " the close Guard" etc but there is no triangle choke as it is a modern kosen judo development from1921, the Sankaku-jime (triangle choke). Of course Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie and Franca, Pire Dos Reis etc learned Maedas Judos (which had Fusen Ryu already incorporated to Judo + catch wrestling) perfected and developped a lot of techniques mostly Gi chokes techniques with long sleeves and made it a worldwide addiction we enjoy today.
there was no catch in bjj and still isnt,theres also no fusen ryu.Its kodokan judo that incorporated tanabe senseis newaza but that was not part of fusen ryu as any student of it today will tell you.
@@scarred10 yes it was. Tanabes father mtorajiromtanabe was who taught grappling tedhniques to matae,on tanabe, and guess what? Torajiro learned that with Motsugai takeda (fusen) fusen was motsugai name. Of course fusen ryu had newaza as motsugai training in 18 different styles, the training of a takeda clan mmber incorporated grappling which existed in japan since 1400 1500 and samurais trained on grappling which they just called in 1700 just ju jutsu.
@@aircombatmaneuvers wherever he learned it ,it wasn't fusen Ryu,its a koryu art that doesn't use newaza. The individual techniques existed for 100s of years in different styles but the skill was developed by tanabe via randori .
Anthony, BJJ was most directly influenced by Kodokan Judo. Judo founder, Jigoro Kano, studied a variety of different schools of Jujutsu, mostly Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū and Kitō-ryū. Kano's Judo students had successfully defeated several other schools of Jujutsu in matches, but they were defeated by the Fusen-ryū school, which had superior ne-waza techniques. Kano incorporated their ne-waza into his Judo curriculum and was passed on to the Gracie family by Kano's student, Mitsuyo Maeda. The Fusen-ryū did not specialize in ne-waza, however, as they also focused on tachi-waza, atemi-waza, shime-waza, nage-waza, and kansetsu-waza, which is standard in all Jujutsu schools.
What your not understanding is it all comes down to one man . Tanaabe Sensei. AKA " Butt Scooter Tanabe ". He is credited with defeating the Kodokan at the challenge match between the Kodokan and Fusen Ryu. Kano then hired him to teach the Kodokan Newaza . His greatest students were Maeda (count Komo) who taught the Gracie' s and Kimura ( who defeated Helio Gracie ) .
These do not like like the old Helio Gracie self defense moves (standing stuff). You will be hard pressed to directly connect Fusen ryu to BJJ. Renzo notes that Fusen ryu had a hand in developing the newaza of Judo. But Conde Coma, the man who taught the Gracies martial arts, was a Kodokan man. Fusen seems to be in the lineage but looking at the tachi waza of Fusen ryu for similarities to GJJ/BJJ is futile when the standing skills of BJJ/GJJ are from Kodokan Judo, which were developed even before the newaza were developed.
I study Yoshin Ryu jujutsu. I recognize most of the techniques used in this video. My understanding is that most traditional jujutsu schools use roughly the same techniques but with different emphasize. The MAJOR difference between Japanese jujutsu and Brazilian jujutsu is historical context and the end goal. The goal of Brazilian jujutsu is to defeat an unarmed opponent in combat and in that context Brazilian jujutsu has no equal. The goal of traditional jujutsu (including akido to an extent) is to defeat an opponent armed with melee weapons. Much of the approach and the techniques seen above require little alteration if the opponent is armed while for the student of Brazilian jujutsu, the entire approach and most of the moves have to be changed or abandoned if the opponent is armed. This is not to say that Brazilian jujutsu does not teach knife defense etc. they do but it's not the focus. Most of the ground techniques used in Brazilian jujutsu appear in most of the traditional jujutsu schools, they are generally treated as a given and as a weapon of last resort. A samurai never wants to go to ground because he assumes that his opponent is armed with a tanto if no larger weapon is visible. And knife fighting on the ground is near suicide. What Brazilian jujutsu brings to the table, more than improved ground work is it's teaching technique. Every move is taught with it it's counter-move or defense strategy, these can then make little games of move and counter move. This teaching technique produces faster results than the set-piece kata training of my own and other traditional styles.
Bjj is a sport...guaranteed safety so you can focus on defeating an opponent. Jujutsu was combat...no grantees for anything, kill or maim the person or people, maybe with weapons so you can escape alive. Similarities but huge differences too.
Traditional Jiu Jitsu was melee in Armour. In this context the techniques make sense. This does not change the fact, that knife defense training is bullshit and can actually put your life in danger due to false confidence. One of my instructors actually gave us some rubber knives and made us spar with them. Stabs are so quick, that at most you can try to dodge them. But if you try to catch hands it suddenly becomes very apparent that these techniques are not practical. (The training session was Bujinkan, not BJJ)
@@MultiMeschi I do agree that the knife methods are very outdated and not practical for today's tactics. When I teach knife methods we do spar, do live blade on skin exercises and simple secure and drop drills... if you cannot get away.
Fusen Ryu defeat Judo in Ne Waza, that was the birth of Kosen Judo, and Judo did absorb Fusen Ryu Ne waza (Kosen) into their own but focusing on the throw.
That is entirely incorrect,fusen Ryu had nothing g to do with newaza and nothing to do with kosen either,there is no groundwork in classical jj styles because it's not battlefield appropriate. Many people myself included think the newaza used in the challenge matches v judo was entirely tanabes own speciality seperate from fusen Ryu ,a specific strategy against the strong tachiwaza of judo.
Kano had instructors/masters from Fusen Ryu come an teach in the Kodokan. This was part of kano’s Judo. Old school Judo had throws, striking, newaza( ground) and self defense. In Brasil the focus became ground. Remember wrestling was big in Brasil. So it adapted to its competition. But, for competition striking and wrist locks were not allowed. This was done for safety. Did they spar with striking, Yes. Just not in competition.
COMPLETELY WRONG... VERY WRONG, IT WAS FAR FROM TRUE... The focus in Brazil was A COMPLETE ART, just like Jujutsu, DIFFERENT FROM JUDO, the story you tell about judo IS 100% FAKE... Judo is a sport created by Jigoro Kano to create a Japanese wrestler,use as physical training to strengthen the Japanese, but using Jujutsu techniques WHICH WAS NOT A WRESTLER STYLE, but a style of self defense...but with takedowns and locks...the ground game appears only AFTER THE MIXING WITH WRESTLER, but from practitioners from another school, Fusen, which focused on STAND UP, but its master developed a good ground game...Only later did Judo spend a few years copying and developing a good ground game, including bringing many things from the wrestler... What the Brazilians did was try to recreate what according to the Japanese themselves was Jujutsu, a complete style (the mother of all martial arts, that's what they said)... As the Japanese only taught JUDO (THE SPORT) and very basic, still most of the learning came through imitation and reverse engineering, JAPANESE BEFORE WWII were the devil, they weren't a friendly and peaceful people like today, they were 99% RACIAL SUPREMACISTS, they didn't mix, they created colonies in the style of the Amish and they stayed there as if were still in Japan... That's why Brazilians know that Jiujitsu had everything, and they only had takedowns and a ground game more or less, they developed more the ground, wrestling and strike, mixing it with Capoeira, wrestling and boxing...Capoeira at the time was a mix of wrestler, savate, boxing, catch wrestling, jujutsu, and gymnastics, it didn't have much to do with today's capoeira...Capoeira was an ORGANIC style that mixed everything that was fought on the street, with a lot of French and English influence practiced by street hooligans, 1/3 of those arrested for using capoeira in street gang fights were FOREIGNERS...only later with the prohibition of capoeira that it survives in the black peripheries, and mixes with African dances and fights, The current capoeira was invented in the 50s by Mestre Bimba... That said, from capoeira came the kicks, trickery, the absence of rules, double leg, technical lifting, butt, from boxing the punches, distance, movement...and some things were created like strategy, postures, etc... NEVER FOCUSED ONLY ON GROUNDS until the 90's, pulling guard is something that comes out in the 90s, however, as it was the only style that had a very complete ground game, they always ended up taking the fight to the ground...But Helio himself has fights that he tries to keep the fight standing for an hour of fighting, and the opponent, a wrestler is the one who takes him to the ground all the time, Helio gets up and goes back to strike... Jiu Jitsu had self defense training, full power sparring against several opponents, strikes standing and on the ground, with and without kimono...defense against weapons, etc. It was only in the late 90s that the focus shifted to newaza, even when that happens it greatly increased the complexity of the ground game, but the new techniques are few efficient in MMA, because the focus is sport newaza, before the focus was VALE TUDO.
INITIALLY, JUDO AND JIUJITSU were taught at Kodokan... that's why both names were used... The Japanese only called it Judo when it was COMPETITION OR TRAINING IN THE RULES OF JUDO... judo was a modality, a rule, within Jujutsu which was the art... With time, the same thing happens with BJJ, the competition became the main focus and the rest was abandoned...AND THAT'S RIGHT... that's what works... you can't embrace the whole world, to have a high level, you have to specialize...BJJ managed to be complete because it was a SMALL amateur sport, when it became global, with people investing 1 million dollars in a camp, having a complete art IS DYSFUNCTIONAL, and IT DOESN'T WORK... what works is to train each area with SPECIALISTS IN THAT AREA...do strike sparring with strikers, wrestler sparring with wrestlers, and grappler with grapplers...it's MMA... practicing MMA and calling it complete art like Combat Sambo does is just a joke for crazy nationalists or racists who don't want to accept reality...then they pretend to be what it is not for SUPERIORITY PROPAGANDA... When BTT, the BJJ elite at the time, STARTED training wrestlers with wrestlers and no longer within their own style, and Strike with Muay Thay or Boxing and not within their own style, no one else said it was all BJJ, it was MMA, it was boxing, it was muay Thay and only the floor continued to be called BJJ...
wrestler it has always been INSIGNIFICANT IN BRAZIL, until today it is IMPOSSIBLE to learn decent wrestling in Brazil, there was a handful of Catch Wrestlers in Brazil for a while, but few too, when Vitor Belfort went to the US and learned some wrestling moves and returned to Brazil, he is a striker, caused amazement in the Jiujitsu crowd with the different type of movement he brought from the wrestler...because Brazil NEVER HAD A HIGH LEVEL WRESTLER... and still doesn't have one today, when they find a good mid/high level Is it an immigrant who fled from a war in Iran or came from Cuba, or something like that...
Alot of folks talking about where Helio got his standing self defense. I have watched video of those techniques and have seen them in alot of old wrestling manuals from the early 1900s and some of the techniques can be found in some of the earliest cqc manuals. so, I will venture to say that Helio did not invent them.
@@scarred10 that's not true. You can believe that if you so wish, that's your right. History shows otherwise. His illustrious teacher was also known to fight and train with Catch wrestlers, as well. Yes, there is wresting in bjj
This is excellent, I have seen similar techniques taught by Zigurd Ogrens in Boston. Sieneuri Ryu or something like that spelling, of French origin I believe. I saw the techniques second hand, I was not a student there.
Anthony I don't see much BJJ here. The strikes are too held out (as in leaving your arm there for a throw to be applied). I would like to see some more ground work. There are similarities in the throws, such as the arm takedowns and the hip and stomach throws earlier. But again if some ground work could be shown then we could see a lot more similarities...
HI Anthony, I enjoy your videos very much. I have been studying under Relson Gracie for several years and the standup self defense techniques are stressed alot. From what I know a lot of the techniques look similar to the techniques in Judo's goshin jutsu no kata. although we practice them a little less rigidly. Also mixed in are some judo type throws ( O goshi seems to be utilized the most). As far as ground work is concerned it is very similar to Kosen Judo in techniques but emphasizes "flow" a lot more. There is no denying that Gracie jiu jitsu comes from judo, however we must not forget that whenever Maeda trained judo (at the time still called Kano jiu jitsu) judo looked a lot different from what it is today. just look at how much judo has changed in the last couple of decades. Another point I would like to bring up although it is only my speculation is this : Maeda participated in prize fighting and so most likely favored the techniques that worked for him in the ring and most likely those are the techniques that he taught to the gracies (more focused on ground work and submissions) because in 1on 1 situation that stuff works really well. Lastly I would like to bring something up that you Anthony might want to look into. When Maeda moved to Brazil and taught his judo/jiu jitsu, the gracies werent his only students. I wonder what happened to those people? Is there another style of brazilian jiu jitsu that does not trace its lineage back to the gracie family?
The Gracies actually learned Judo from one of Maeda's apprentice. The Gracie brothers soon assualted their poor master because he prevented Carlos Gracie to represent Judo with a match against a Catchwrestler, because he is not a direct student of Maeda.
There is 100% evidence that Mataemon Tanabe was a representative of Fusen ryū. I think he was the man responsible for the Kodokan becoming more grappling efficient. It is documented that Tanabe had defeated several Kodokan Judokas using newaza (grappling) throughout the late 1880's - to the turn of the 20th century. To first understand what Kodokan Judo was like at that time frame (1880's-early 1900's), I will cite a few chapters from Jigoro Kano's autobiography: Mind Over Muscle The following chapters is taken from pages 28-32 from Mind Over Muscle and details how katame-waza (grappling) was further included in Kodokan Judo: NAGE-WAZA AND KATAME-WAZA - "Next, I would like briefly to discuss free practice involving throwing and grappling techniques, which I will refer to by their Japanese names. When I was training, I practiced katame-waza quite a bit, but after coming to appreciate nage-waza when I learned Kito-ryū, I came to believe that nage-waza should be emphasized in the technical training aspects of judo. This does not mean I consider katame-waza to be useless, of course, but I stress practicing nage-waza first, followed then by katame-waza. This is because doing katame-waza first hinders progress in nage-waza, while it makes sense that learning nagewaza makes it easier to remember katame-waza at a later stage. When I established the Kodokan, I encouraged the practice of of nage-waza precisely for that reason. As a result, at that time a great number of experts in nage-waza were fostered in the early years of the Kodokan. As a result of emphasizing nage-waza, however, katame-waza gradually became neglected. Sometime around 1887, masters from all the various schools around the country gathered at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department. Among them were experts in katame-waza. When competing against them, the Kodokan practitioners had no problem using nage-waza, but they had difficulty using katame-waza at first. The same thing happened in a series of competitions held in the Kyoto Butokukai with experts in katame-waza from around the country-the Kodokan practitioners easily won using nage-waza but struggled with the less familar katame-waza. For these reasons, more efforts were directed into the practice of katame-waza in which the Kodokan gained more prominence, and these days most practitioners at the Kodokan can hold their own against any opponent, whether with nage-waza or katame-waza. I must point out , though, that as we progressed at katame-waza in the Kodokan, our progress at nage-waza was interrupted. There is a limit to one's energy, and when energy is expanded in one area, other areas become neglected-this is unavoidable. I am therefore giving serious thought to the randori of the future. If katame-waza are practiced after first emphasizing nage-waza, then it is possible for certain people to become highly skillful at both. Ordinarily, however, one cannot excel at both, so most people should put their energy into mastering nage-waza while devoting less of their energy to katame-waza, while those who are particularly interested in katame-waza may practice them as a main form. I plan to use this policy accordingly when giving instruction in the future. I have outlined the general changes in judo techniques here, but would like to add something about the changes that have taken place in judging". Next chapter will be provided in the next comment.
Next chapter is on pages 31-32: IMPROVEMENT OF THE RULES FOR JUDGING - "The Kodokan's rules for judging were drawn up the year following the establishment of Kodokan judo, but they were not finalized until 1900, when rules shared by the Butokukai were created. Until that time, the Butokukai had used the Kodokan's rules for judging. They felt, though, that there was a need for additional rules, and because the Kodokan itself was of the same mind, I drafted new rules and finalized them after listening to and carefully considering the thoughts of masters who gathered from around the country. Most of those who gather at the Butokukai today are practitioners of Kodokan judo either directly or indirectly, but at that time many people were still practitioners of the various schools of jujutsu. Accordingly, the use of Kodokan judo's rules for judging was disadvantageous for them, so when regulations were proposed, various allowances were made. One example was if a person used ineffective techniques excessively and lay down out of fear of being thrown, this would be overlooked and no fault found. When formulating that rule, we felt there would be few negative effects, but when we actually implemented it we discovered that it was flawed in various ways. I consulted with, among others, the head of the Butokukai, and was asked whether something could be done to improve the situation. In the end we decided to revise the rule, and after many meetings with the principal people involved in both Tokyo and Kyoto, we finally formulated the revised judging rules in 1922. We still found more deficiencies in them, however, and after further revision the current rules were established in 1925. There may be a need to revise the rules even further in the future, but I think there is no doubt that the judging rules have improved after many years of study". *Interesting to note that Kano specifically wrote "if a person used ineffective techniques excessively and lay down out of fear of being thrown, this would be overlooked and no fault found". What did Kano mean by "lay down out of fear of being thrown"? Pulling guard? It seems plausible that the variuos katame-waza jujutsu schools would pull guard to defeat Kano's students. I highly think in fact that that was the case of those various katame-waza based jujutsu schools at the time; that they would simply "lay down" or "pull guard" to defeat the Kodokan representatives. Pulling guard is known as "hikikomi" in Japanese. It literally means to "pull in" and is the common tactic used in Kosen Judo. More on kosen judo later.
Here is photographic evidence showing Fusen ryū representative Mataemon Tanabe. This photograph lists the names of the jujutsu masters and their schools right above their names. It is written in Japanese Kanji. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataemon_Tanabe#/media/File:Butokukai.jpg Mataemon Tanabe's full name is written in Kanji in the bottom half (6th from left) and the name of his jujutsu school (Fusen ryū) is written above his name. Some of the kanji characters is written in old kanji. Kanji is read from left to right and read and written from top to bottom. Tanabe is standing 6th from left and is standing right behind Kodokan judo founder Jigoro Kano. Jigoro Kano is sitting in dead center. *Note that Kano being in the center displays his importance and hierarchy at the Butokukai.
The direct students of Mataemon Tanabe were Taro Miyake and Yukio Tani. Both Miyake and Tani went to England to open up their Jujutsu school in London, England in 1904. It also noted that in 1898, Tanabe had trained with Yataro Handa, a notable master of newaza; the school that is a descendant of Sekiguchi ryū. Both Miyake and Tani list that their masters were Mataemon Tanabe & Yataro Handa. Link of Miyake and Tani in London, England: www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2016/09/the-original-bjj-new-discoveries-and-speculations-re-the-submission-grappling-of-british-jiu-jitsu/comment-page-1/ Here is a book that both Miyake and Tani wrote in 1906: www.docdroid.net/PC2xkV8/the-game-of-jujitsu-yukio-tani-koizumi-1906.pdf#page=54 Read pages 41-50 and 57-63. It illustrates and details the open and closed guard and submissions from these guards. All of this was before any Gracie or Brazilian learned "Jiu Jitsu". How does this relate to BJJ? One can only speculate that Mitsuyo Maeda was taught the open & closed guard from his time in Japan between 1897-1904 or when he met up with Miyake and Tani in 1907. Refer back to the chapter in the first comment. Kano wrote that "more efforts were directed into the practice of katame-waza in which the Kodokan gained more prominence". Does that mean Tanabe had taught Kano his Fusen ryū style of katame-waza? One can only speculate that he did. "As a result of emphasizing nage-waza, however, katame-waza gradually became neglected. Sometime around 1887, masters from all the various schools around the country gathered at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department. Among them were experts in katame-waza. When competing against them, the Kodokan practitioners had no problem using nage-waza, but they had difficulty using katame-waza at first. The same thing happened in a series of competitions held in the Kyoto Butokukai with experts in katame-waza from around the country-the Kodokan practitioners easily won using nage-waza but struggled with the less familar katame-waza. For these reasons, more efforts were directed into the practice of katame-waza in which the Kodokan gained more prominence, and these days most practitioners at the Kodokan can hold their own against any opponent, whether with nage-waza or katame-waza." It is described that Mitsuyo Maeda first trained in Kodokan Judo in 1897 and left for the United States of America in 1904 with his teacher Tsunejiro Tomita. It is very possible that Tanabe had taught his newaza to Kano when he had beaten his students or that Maeda learned the use of the open and closed guard from his time in England with Miyake and Tani. It is noted that Tanabe either did teach his Fusen ryū to Jigoro Kano for no gain or was paid for teaching his grappling techniques. Either way, the open and closed guard was used in Japan before any Gracie or Brazilian claimed to have invented it. Look up BJJ lies The Hélio Gracie cult by Kron 'Flat Earth' Gracie (no disrespect to Hélio Gracie) here on YT and you'll hear Kron say that his grandfather Hélio Gracie invented the guard.
Link of Mitsuyo Maeda meeting up with Tanabe's students Taro Miyake & Yukio Tani in London, England circa 1907: www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2017/10/mitsuyo-maeda-in-england-1907-08/
Looks more like aikido I'm almost positive most the ground work or newaza was made in the kosen judo schools or ryus but this looks alot like aikido with a lil more judo influence
Hi Antony. Great video. Thanks for the Fusen Ryu footage. I heard a story, and I have no idea if this is true, that for a while the Gracies were in fued with the Judo community, and they tried to say that they had nothing to do with them, that their art came from Fusen Ryu. Don't get me wrong, I have a great appreciation for BJJ, i have a blue belt, but the Gracies have been known to tell some tall tales.
the gracies never even heard of fusen ryu,youre possibly referring to john danahers foreward to renzo gracies book.Its true that they claimed it was jujitsu rather than judo that carlos learned but never specified which style.
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Hey Anthony I´ve returned because I couldn ´t find the Kunoichi video. If TH-cam hasn´t removed it then you´re the one who best knows where it is. Could you please send me a link?
I can not find it either. I have too many videos. TH-cam did pull some down. I have a small chapter on them in my book In Search of teh Ninja. There is not much to know. Its a sort of sub spy helper.
@@AntonyCummins I´ve read some Kunoichi-stuff from Stephen Hayes´ old books. I especially remember the female-character Chiyome Mochizuki, and that her uncle should have been the powerful Shingen Takeda, who was in strong rivalry with a man named Kenjin Uesugi if I´ve spelled it correct. She drowe an orphanage for homeless girls, where she raised them, was like a family for them, made them loyal and taught them the Kunoichiskills. Espionage was something that quickly became natural for them. They learned how to use their gender to charm and manipulate men. They could fight but it´s my impression that the correct kind of acting in any situation was more emphasized. It was more important to not get revealed as a spy than anything else. They must have been very good at talking and excusing themselves out of any suspicious and potential dangerous situation is my impression. The kind of intelligence we would cunningness if it is called so in correct English. A shame that the video is gone. I think I´ll have to buy some of your books then. I already have your Bansenshukai, Shoninki and Ninpiden/Shinobi Hiden. Isn´t thats rights that Ninpiden and Shinobi Hiden are the same? I think I´ll get the one "The dark side of Japan" and the book about Kujikiri and Kujiin to get wiser on these aspects of the art. My martial skills are great therefore I think it´s more important for me to focus on these aspects of the art. The art of fighting without fighting or more subtle ways of fighting is just as cool as the very physical and concrete ways of fighting.
@@renehenriksen1735 Hello renehenriksen1735. Just want to let you know that Antony doesn't receive notifications for replies to his replies so he didn't see your follow up comment. I agree with you. Your comment reminds me of two things; a Sun Tzu quote saying " It is far better to outwit your enemy than to outfight them." and this book called The Delicate Dependency about these vampires who only used pure intellect against their enemies, no physical violence. It forever changed my thought process. To be a creature of pure intellect. They were on a whole other level and since it is fiction I still practice the physical aspects of martial arts but this ideal heavily influences how I would apply the physical techniques. I still practice the physical techniques for just in case but it definitely changed my life for the better in the sense that I will never get in a physical confrontation again if it is ever due to an argument for example. I will never engage with anyone physically because I also choose to be a creature of pure intellect. Yet since I do still live in this world and violence is a part of this world unfortunately, I still want to stay sharp on the application of physical techniques but now I always contemplate how to apply them without severely harming the attacker if at all. For the most part I focus on evading confrontation as my first line of defense.
+fullyautomaticgerman Yes they do, Helio did not incorporate these techniques. His self defense techniques are in more of a Judo style - lots of hip throws to finish, etc.
Being a UFC fan I've just recently got the Gracie combatives DVD which contains everything of there syllabus up to blue belt (about half way to black belt). They are all about clinching and talking the opponent to the ground, and defending yourself if you have been taken to the ground. They claim to prepared you to defend yourself in most street fight as most fights end up on the floor. If you are interested in seeing it let me know.
If you want to see them in action Hickson Gracie is regarded as the best ever practitioner, several videos on you tube one of which is a good documentary called 'Choke'.
That's not Gracie Jujitsu that is the old style of nihon Jujitsu my father was a instructor of Jujitsu and close quarter combat for the US Navy from 1955-1965 at Cambridge Maryland training station, Gracie is just pre WW2 Judo not Jujitsu
Hi, Antony, I love your work and what you're doing for the MA community! I've been practicing BJJ (Primarily Gracie Academy system but dabble in other schools of grappling as well) for almost 7 years now since I was 16. I am now 23. I also had done Shaolin Kempo before that for about 3 years which had some traditional Japanese Jujitsu within the system. The style presented in this video doesn't really seem to have much in common with our system. Obviously, some of the core principles exist (Leverage, body positioning, using their momentum etc) But I think that's just because physics works the same no matter what "style" you do. These guys tend to focus on catching strikes out of the air and flowing into a technique from there. This, in my opinion, sounds EXTREMELY difficult to do and in my own personal experience, I might even venture to say it is too hard to rely on pulling off in a real fight. In our system we do not try to catch anything flying at us but instead time between strikes to "shoot in" to either go for a shot style takedown (Tackle kind of thing) or establish a "clinch" (Bear hug kind of thing) position on the person snuffing their ability to throw effective strikes and from there look for a sweep or trip to get them down where we would finish the fight. Having competed in grappling matches with fully resisting opponents, I am not a fan of wrist locks, at all. Not to sound proud or full of myself, but I am almost 100% certain I would never be caught in a wrist lock from a free standing position if I was resisting. However, it is my personal theory that wrist locks have their own niche in a fight which would explain their popularity among traditional arts. Grappling for an OBJECT is different than grappling a person. If we're in a grapple on a battle field and we were trying to get something like a sword or knife out of each other's hands, twisting your wrist around might be more of a viable option as the focus is not on takedowns and submissions but more getting the weapon. In BJJ our focus is get you to the ground PERIOD and then win from there. But in traditional JJ the focus tends to be on getting the opponent to the ground while you are still standing which makes sense if you're on a battle field with a weapon. BJJ is more for if someone tries to attack you, you grab onto them and hang on for dear life while utilizing leverage and skill to defeat or survive an attack from what might be a bigger, stronger person. I hope any of this helps your research, Antony. We need more historians in the MMA side of things. I hope your quest to show the world true Ninjutsu goes well. For everyone's sake...
I also trained BJJ started in 07, wrist locks are not common, but they are taught, from standing and on the ground, and the overall emphasis is they can work. Even Keenan Cornelius did a video showing some wrist locks that he uses occasionally.
This is almost identical to the style of Japanese jiujitsu I got my third degree black belt in. I have since over the past 20 years since, added catch wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai. Combining old style jiujitsu with realistic sparring creates a very well rounded self defence system. Whilst I love BJJ it is impractical to spend so much time on the ground, the idea of wearing down a bigger opponent might make sense in a refereed fight, but not in the street. If you haven’t finished the guy within 10 to 20 seconds or so, better to get back to your feet and run away, unless of course you are defending others.
Fusen Jujitsu is combat effective compared to BJJ. I can tell these techniques are geared towards multiple combat while BJJ is only good for combat sport's. And that only!!!!
What you can tell from this video is that this doesn't work at all,no resistance, speed,power or intent in any attack. This fusen Ryu had zero I influence on either judo or bjj which by the way was until the 1990s a style for vale tudo, not sport bjj.
Don't think that's a bjj, allthough i don't know bjj. You can see the Gracie tectiques for yourself i think through youtube and you can contact them if you like for more info.
i'm surprised as a researcher you don't know more about this. you need to give credit in whatever books you write to us, i'll be expecting a check in the mail. BJJ/GJJ is completely based off of Katame Waza which, as almost everyone knows, was introduced to the gracies by Maeda who was a disciple of Oda(most don't know this). Oda was a brilliant Katame Waza specialist and is credited by many of re-asserting grappling into Judo. Guard and guard sweeps can be all seen in old footage of Oda sensei, long before Helio. There is also a Kendo vid from the 30's around here that ends up on the ground and these old guys (50s) pull each other into the guard. Anyhow, Judo was developed from a guy name Kano who was a high ranking dan(10th?) in Jujutsu. Kano was extremely passionate about Jujutsu, learning from various ryu, and wanted to show case the art in competition. Jujutsu was far too brutal so, he developed a sport with that specific reason in mind and found Kodokan ryu. pro tip: The uke in most of those demo vids with Kano was the great Mifune. The claim that the gracies make, of helio unable to perform the techniques because of his stature, ive always found odd. Kano, Mifune, Iso, etc. were even smaller. 5 footish. helio was a whopping 5'9. weird. finally, the lineage is actually jujutsu->judo->gjj. and with the first public ryu of jujutsu opening in the 780s there is a lot of history to development of this martial art. you're a bad bad researcher.
Lad you really need to do some research before typing. Katame waz are pinning techniques , its newaza that bjj is based on with so e rudimentary throws and self defense,all from kodokan judo. Maeda was not a student of oda ,he was senior or contemporary of oda and left Japan in 1908 prior to any division between kosen rule and kodokan.The footage your referring to is from the 1950s,30 yrs after helio started training but yes everything helio learned was judo.
Looks closer to Aiki-jitsu or Naihan jujitsu, I also see some techniques that are found in chinese chin-na the striking looks like basic atemi/ karate. There are some similar grappling techniques in the original Helio Gracie Jiu-jitsu, known as the self defenses. Most of the schools have discarded the "self defenses" as well as the wrist attacks and standing straight arm/ shoulder lock throws, for the more functional body lock/ clinch and ground techniques you see in UFC and BJJ tournaments.
The randori in BJJ/GJJ is more like a mix of Kosen judo and catch wrestling, and the match isn't restarted once you get taken to the ground; It restarts when someone is submitted. The randori here is much more like traditional jujutsu, and there doesn't seem to be much ne waza in this branch of Fusen ryu. You would need a video of the ne waza for a better comparison. (Fyi, BJJ is more so based off Kosen judo, which in itself, is inspired by the ne waza of Fusen ryu.)
Click186 That is simply untrue my friend. Second generation Gracies were extremely involved in wrestling and sambo styles, especially Rolls Gracie, who was a monolithic figure in its development. Maeda is said to have incorporated catch wrestling into his judo and it is not a stretch of the imagination to suggest that his judo game at least changed to suit the threat of the many catch wrestlers he fought in his career.
Nick Vázquez Kosen didn't flourish until the early 20th century. Maeda had already left in 1903 which, if Kosen had existed, would have been in its infancy. He might have been aware of the developments, but what he taught to the Gracies seems to have been standard Kodokan. Old videos and articles, etc. suggest there wasn't as much of an emphasis on ground in the founding of GJJ as there was once the second generation rose to prominence. The similarities are coincidence in my opinion.
Josh Okami Note that the kodokan judo of today is far away from the kodokan judo of the early 20th century. The old style kodokan judo of the early 20th century (in which Maeda was involved in) had a lot emphasis on the ground (also with leglocks). And this concept (emphasis on the ground) was transferred to kosen judo later. The only difference between kosen and early kodokan judo is, that kosen bans leglocks now. And when I watch kosen judo I see bjj wtihout leglocks.
+elosoloco1000 I don't want to know anything about BJJ because when 2 or 3 thugs are trying or attacking you on the streets all your grappling and trying to take some one on the floor will only help to put you in the hospital or worse. What I know is what ever you practice my friend is what you're going to do in emergencies. And it is you who needs to wake and know the difference between the sport and practical skills. End of lesson.
+David Lebron BJJ is good for what it does, Judo relies more on strength than BJJ though. I personally found Judo easy to learn and BJJ difficult but most people are the opposite. Then again I'm large and strong with good balance, most people are weak and skinny and fall down all the time. lol At the end of the day good BJJ is better than bad Judo and BJJ does have some Judo throws depending where you train.
Agreed. A Karate master wrote a book a while back titled the "Karate Dojo" it also specified the advantages of different body types like speed, mobility and sizes. It is very important to know what are your strengths and weaknesses and adapt techiques your can use effectively TO DEFEND against in body type.And that's the meaning of martial arts. The art of not struggling or fighting.
The Gracie self defense is a different style than this, much simpler. I have a hard time believing Helio invented it, perhaps Maeda trained in other schools?
Bob Belson Gracie self defense is almost all standing. It encompasses knife, gun, stick, chair, headlock, punch defense. Pretty sure Helio invented most of them at this point. These techniques are in more of an aiki style where his technique work more like judo and require no momentum.
petersouth1000 I taught you were refering to the ground fighting. Gracie self defense comes Maeda as Franca/Fadda lineage of BJJ has half of the same moves.
have notice these also in ninjutsu even tho it is military type art shinobi no mono dose gorilla type war fair long with spying intel work and sometime assassination nice video
THIS is really hard work my drill with dummy is all hard work no play finger where dummy center gravity at but throw it 70lb same easy but no it hard when dead weight live weight be little hard even jujitsu all hard work
Vince Millett "Maeda was born in Funazawa Village, Hirosaki City, Aomori Prefecture, Japan, on November 18, 1878. He attended Kenritsu Itiu high school (currently Hirokou-a Hirosaki school).[1] As a child, he was known as Hideyo.[5] He practiced sumo as a teenager, but lacked the ideal build for the sport. Because of the interest generated by stories about the success of judo at contests between judo and jujutsu that were occurring at the time, he changed from sumo to judo. In 1894, at seventeen years of age, his parents sent him to Tokyo to enroll in Waseda University. He took up Kodokan judo the following year.[1]" LOL!
The name is wrong. Brazilian Ju Jutsu not exist. The name of the System is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Ju Jutsu and the Jiu Jitsu Systems are different Systems.
+Ray ZXA that's just silly. jiu jitsu IS the same as ju jutsu. It just so happens that us brazilians spelled it "jiu jitsu" cos thats how people heard it and wrote it down here. for instance, the letter "U" as spoken in english, if written down in portuguese based on sound, it's written "IU", since our "U" actually sounds like your "OO", and so on.
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If you look at videos on here of Helio Gracie in his younger days he is practicing bog standard Kodokan Judo (which would make sense from his initial introduction was that). It is only much later that the ground game seems to have been emphasized and Tachi-Waza dropped almost completely. Fusen Ryu had nothing to do with BJJ. Fusen Ryu was not known for its ground game. Not many of those proposing this linkage know that it seems. Fusen Ryu had a heavy Tachi-Waza emphasis like many other Jujutsu Ryu's. But a few Fusen Ryu practitioners were very good at the ground game. However those practitioners never went to Brazil or had anything to do with BJJ. There was much cross polination between Ryu's due to open no-rules competition in the early days though so trying to figure out where the ground game REALLY originated from in terms of its strength is going to be very difficult. You need to start at the Osaka Handa School - not with ideas around Fusen Ryu.
Old man Gracie learned Judo he called it Jujutsu but what he used was Kanos mdified Jujutsu he then named Judo...from Maeda one of Kanos students.
Fusen ryu has Ne waza as well as most styles of Jujutsu but specifically Mataemon Tanabe developed his groundwork more because he focused more in Ne waza and beat several members of the Kodokan, after these events Hajime Isogai train with Kaichiro Samura who was good at Ne waza before entering Kodokan Samura treined in Takenouchi ryu that had a development in Ne waza, Isogai had victory against Tanabe and the Kodokan started training Ne waza, and then emerged Kosen judo, Sambo and Brazilian jiu jitsu.
Where do you think judo got their newaza from?
@@SI-ln6tc Tanabe´s newaza did not come from fusen ryu, came from Tanabe´s competitive experiences. Tanabe influenced Judo´s newaza but not all newaza from Judo came from Tanabe. In Judo there was newaza but not enough to defeat Tanabe, after the challenges from Tanabe to Kodokan Judô improved newaza.
@@SI-ln6tctirou do jujutsu antigo . Fusen ryu. E so isso o europeu tem um historico de roubo , veja a televisao , ai veio uma certa familia aqui no Brasil e encamparam cwrtas coisas .
Well, certainly Tanabe, the man who was famous for challenging the Kodokan, was great at groundwork. And his students, Yukio Tani and Taro Miyake, were also known for their submission acumen. Tani produced instructional material which you can view in a number of places. Some people say that Tanabe, Tani and Miyake were not characteristic of Fusen Ryu in general, but certainly they did not arise out of a vacuum and are at least somewhat representative of a certain Fusen Ryu branch, Tanabe's branch.
thats exactly correct,fusen ryu has no groundwork, I know all 3 trained at the handa dojo before leaving japan.
There are many branches of Fusen Ryu but there was only one that was known for it's ground work. IIRC that branch was absorbed into the Kodokan. Fusen Ryu was more known for the kusari-gama more than ground work.
Brief Intro: I am a Judo Nidan, BJJ (Gracie Barra) Black Belt, and have study several Koryu Jujutsu schools (mainly Asayam Ichden Ryu, Tenshin Shinto Ryu) and lived in Japan for 9 yrs. I also trained in the Bujinkan and Genbukan but it's been years.
Are you the same Gezere from Bullshido? Kyokushin BB, US Army mustang officer?
Dear Sir, Are you by any chance located in Prague cz??
Correct. The students of Tanabe (the most famed groundwork specialist of Fusen ryu, known for defeating multiple judokas via ground submission) joined the Kodokan and added their input later. The same situation with Totsuka Yoshin Ryu practitioners who would engage judokas on the ground in the 1880s after judos advantage in throwing skill became apparent. (At the time, challenge matches were also conducted over hardwood floors which was the preferred surface for Koryu jujustsu. And one of the reasons why judo, practiced on tatami, became better skilled in throwing. One clean throw could end the fight.) Same same with Takenouchi ryu on later challenges. A lot of these were later absorbed in to the Kodokan around the turn of the century.
Some BJJ's claims to links to other older Koryu instead of the Kodokan is purely retrospective. Before the Kodokan adopted weight divisions, smaller players' tactics naturally included 'straight to ground' rather than risk to be muscled out of an ippon. They would approach with shiko or knee walking (looked more elegant than bum shuffling spread eagled towards the opponent ;p).
Very good video Antony, my respects for your research on the samurais, Shinobi and everything related to Japan, Greetings from Argentina ✋🥋.
I didn't even know this but in Japan there's around like 25 different styles of Ju jutsu or Jiu Jitsu however the correct spelling is legend has it all styles we're fighting each other to see which one was the most effective to train military and police in Japan and the final two were Fusen Ryu vs Kito Ryu or what is known today as Judo and maybe back then Kano Jiu Jitsu because Kano branched off to start his on system with his masters blessings and Kito Ryu Kano Ju Jutsu best Fusen Ryu not by much but about by three victories and the Japan police and military went with Judo
Tenjin shinyo ryu + Kito ryu + fusen ryu = Kodokan Judo. Jigoro Kano - Maeda - Gracies.
But Tanabe sensei gave his school to Jigoro Kano due the few student that he had, for keep that scence Kano sensei founded Kosen Judo just for ne waza or grappling....Maeda was one of the first judoka when sensei Kano added grappling to Judo but Maeda focus in ne waza technique, something normally in Judo where you can specialize in some kind of technique or form of fight
Mataemon Tanabe ( Fusen Ryu ) disciple of its father Torajiro Tanabe who was the disciple of Mutsugai Takeda and the head and follower of takeds martial art school ( Motsugai takeda was a buddhist Zen priest known as Fusen and founder of Fusen Ryu and a member of takeda clan ) Tanabe taught its ju jutsu ground techniques (ju jitsu) ( which where common since year 1500-1600 sengoku period in japan in many ryu schools as grappling and samurai clan members trained on them) to some judokas on the kodokan after defeating each one of them and they incorporated Fusen ju jitsu into judo. He also exchanged techniques with handa dojo . He was appointed judo kyoshi in 1906, teaching at the Butoku Kai until his retirement in 1922. Theres is a. pdf of 1906 "the game of Ju Jitsu" of Yukio Tani student of Tanabe long before Gracie Jiu jitsu, at that time Tani was calling it "Ju Jitsu" and if you read that. pdf is identical to modern jiu jitsu. So what you call today "Jiu jitsu" is grappling techniques from Fusen Ryu Ju Jitsu (+ some catch wrestling in case of Bjj). In the book of 1906 you can see the use of " the close Guard" etc but there is no triangle choke as it is a modern kosen judo development from1921, the Sankaku-jime (triangle choke). Of course Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie and Franca, Pire Dos Reis etc learned Maedas Judos (which had Fusen Ryu already incorporated to Judo + catch wrestling) perfected and developped a lot of techniques mostly Gi chokes techniques with long sleeves and made it a worldwide addiction we enjoy today.
there was no catch in bjj and still isnt,theres also no fusen ryu.Its kodokan judo that incorporated tanabe senseis newaza but that was not part of fusen ryu as any student of it today will tell you.
@@scarred10so according to you tanabe newaza from where come from?
@@scarred10 yes it was. Tanabes father mtorajiromtanabe was who taught grappling tedhniques to matae,on tanabe, and guess what? Torajiro learned that with Motsugai takeda (fusen) fusen was motsugai name. Of course fusen ryu had newaza as motsugai training in 18 different styles, the training of a takeda clan mmber incorporated grappling which existed in japan since 1400 1500 and samurais trained on grappling which they just called in 1700 just ju jutsu.
@@aircombatmaneuvers wherever he learned it ,it wasn't fusen Ryu,its a koryu art that doesn't use newaza. The individual techniques existed for 100s of years in different styles but the skill was developed by tanabe via randori .
Anthony, BJJ was most directly influenced by Kodokan Judo. Judo founder, Jigoro Kano, studied a variety of different schools of Jujutsu, mostly Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū and Kitō-ryū. Kano's Judo students had successfully defeated several other schools of Jujutsu in matches, but they were defeated by the Fusen-ryū school, which had superior ne-waza techniques. Kano incorporated their ne-waza into his Judo curriculum and was passed on to the Gracie family by Kano's student, Mitsuyo Maeda. The Fusen-ryū did not specialize in ne-waza, however, as they also focused on tachi-waza, atemi-waza, shime-waza, nage-waza, and kansetsu-waza, which is standard in all Jujutsu schools.
Bjj is judo no way around it period
What your not understanding is it all comes down to one man . Tanaabe Sensei. AKA " Butt Scooter Tanabe ".
He is credited with defeating the Kodokan at the challenge match between the Kodokan and Fusen Ryu.
Kano then hired him to teach the Kodokan Newaza . His greatest students were Maeda (count Komo) who taught the Gracie' s and Kimura ( who defeated Helio Gracie ) .
These do not like like the old Helio Gracie self defense moves (standing stuff). You will be hard pressed to directly connect Fusen ryu to BJJ. Renzo notes that Fusen ryu had a hand in developing the newaza of Judo. But Conde Coma, the man who taught the Gracies martial arts, was a Kodokan man. Fusen seems to be in the lineage but looking at the tachi waza of Fusen ryu for similarities to GJJ/BJJ is futile when the standing skills of BJJ/GJJ are from Kodokan Judo, which were developed even before the newaza were developed.
I study Yoshin Ryu jujutsu. I recognize most of the techniques used in this video. My understanding is that most traditional jujutsu schools use roughly the same techniques but with different emphasize. The MAJOR difference between Japanese jujutsu and Brazilian jujutsu is historical context and the end goal.
The goal of Brazilian jujutsu is to defeat an unarmed opponent in combat and in that context Brazilian jujutsu has no equal.
The goal of traditional jujutsu (including akido to an extent) is to defeat an opponent armed with melee weapons. Much of the approach and the techniques seen above require little alteration if the opponent is armed while for the student of Brazilian jujutsu, the entire approach and most of the moves have to be changed or abandoned if the opponent is armed. This is not to say that Brazilian jujutsu does not teach knife defense etc. they do but it's not the focus.
Most of the ground techniques used in Brazilian jujutsu appear in most of the traditional jujutsu schools, they are generally treated as a given and as a weapon of last resort. A samurai never wants to go to ground because he assumes that his opponent is armed with a tanto if no larger weapon is visible. And knife fighting on the ground is near suicide.
What Brazilian jujutsu brings to the table, more than improved ground work is it's teaching technique. Every move is taught with it it's counter-move or defense strategy, these can then make little games of move and counter move. This teaching technique produces faster results than the set-piece kata training of my own and other traditional styles.
Rhodri What about Judo? Nearly everything in BJJ came from Kodokan Judo.
BJJ does not teach knife defense, because knife defense is BS if you are unarmed.
Bjj is a sport...guaranteed safety so you can focus on defeating an opponent. Jujutsu was combat...no grantees for anything, kill or maim the person or people, maybe with weapons so you can escape alive. Similarities but huge differences too.
Traditional Jiu Jitsu was melee in Armour. In this context the techniques make sense. This does not change the fact, that knife defense training is bullshit and can actually put your life in danger due to false confidence.
One of my instructors actually gave us some rubber knives and made us spar with them. Stabs are so quick, that at most you can try to dodge them. But if you try to catch hands it suddenly becomes very apparent that these techniques are not practical. (The training session was Bujinkan, not BJJ)
@@MultiMeschi I do agree that the knife methods are very outdated and not practical for today's tactics. When I teach knife methods we do spar, do live blade on skin exercises and simple secure and drop drills... if you cannot get away.
Good old Fusen ryu jujutsu. It works great in armored combat too.
Fusen Ryu defeat Judo in Ne Waza, that was the birth of Kosen Judo, and Judo did absorb Fusen Ryu Ne waza (Kosen) into their own but focusing on the throw.
That is entirely incorrect,fusen Ryu had nothing g to do with newaza and nothing to do with kosen either,there is no groundwork in classical jj styles because it's not battlefield appropriate. Many people myself included think the newaza used in the challenge matches v judo was entirely tanabes own speciality seperate from fusen Ryu ,a specific strategy against the strong tachiwaza of judo.
Kano had instructors/masters from Fusen Ryu come an teach in the Kodokan. This was part of kano’s Judo. Old school Judo had throws, striking, newaza( ground) and self defense.
In Brasil the focus became ground. Remember wrestling was big in Brasil. So it adapted to its competition.
But, for competition striking and wrist locks were not allowed. This was done for safety. Did they spar with striking, Yes. Just not in competition.
COMPLETELY WRONG... VERY WRONG, IT WAS FAR FROM TRUE...
The focus in Brazil was A COMPLETE ART, just like Jujutsu, DIFFERENT FROM JUDO, the story you tell about judo IS 100% FAKE... Judo is a sport created by Jigoro Kano to create a Japanese wrestler,use as physical training to strengthen the Japanese, but using Jujutsu techniques WHICH WAS NOT A WRESTLER STYLE, but a style of self defense...but with takedowns and locks...the ground game appears only AFTER THE MIXING WITH WRESTLER, but from practitioners from another school, Fusen, which focused on STAND UP, but its master developed a good ground game...Only later did Judo spend a few years copying and developing a good ground game, including bringing many things from the wrestler...
What the Brazilians did was try to recreate what according to the Japanese themselves was Jujutsu, a complete style (the mother of all martial arts, that's what they said)...
As the Japanese only taught JUDO (THE SPORT) and very basic, still most of the learning came through imitation and reverse engineering, JAPANESE BEFORE WWII were the devil, they weren't a friendly and peaceful people like today, they were 99% RACIAL SUPREMACISTS, they didn't mix, they created colonies in the style of the Amish and they stayed there as if were still in Japan...
That's why Brazilians know that Jiujitsu had everything, and they only had takedowns and a ground game more or less, they developed more the ground, wrestling and strike, mixing it with Capoeira, wrestling and boxing...Capoeira at the time was a mix of wrestler, savate, boxing, catch wrestling, jujutsu, and gymnastics, it didn't have much to do with today's capoeira...Capoeira was an ORGANIC style that mixed everything that was fought on the street, with a lot of French and English influence practiced by street hooligans, 1/3 of those arrested for using capoeira in street gang fights were FOREIGNERS...only later with the prohibition of capoeira that it survives in the black peripheries, and mixes with African dances and fights, The current capoeira was invented in the 50s by Mestre Bimba...
That said, from capoeira came the kicks, trickery, the absence of rules, double leg, technical lifting, butt, from boxing the punches, distance, movement...and some things were created like strategy, postures, etc...
NEVER FOCUSED ONLY ON GROUNDS until the 90's, pulling guard is something that comes out in the 90s, however, as it was the only style that had a very complete ground game, they always ended up taking the fight to the ground...But Helio himself has fights that he tries to keep the fight standing for an hour of fighting, and the opponent, a wrestler is the one who takes him to the ground all the time, Helio gets up and goes back to strike...
Jiu Jitsu had self defense training, full power sparring against several opponents, strikes standing and on the ground, with and without kimono...defense against weapons, etc.
It was only in the late 90s that the focus shifted to newaza, even when that happens it greatly increased the complexity of the ground game, but the new techniques are few efficient in MMA, because the focus is sport newaza, before the focus was VALE TUDO.
INITIALLY, JUDO AND JIUJITSU were taught at Kodokan... that's why both names were used...
The Japanese only called it Judo when it was COMPETITION OR TRAINING IN THE RULES OF JUDO... judo was a modality, a rule, within Jujutsu which was the art...
With time, the same thing happens with BJJ, the competition became the main focus and the rest was abandoned...AND THAT'S RIGHT... that's what works... you can't embrace the whole world, to have a high level, you have to specialize...BJJ managed to be complete because it was a SMALL amateur sport, when it became global, with people investing 1 million dollars in a camp, having a complete art IS DYSFUNCTIONAL, and IT DOESN'T WORK... what works is to train each area with SPECIALISTS IN THAT AREA...do strike sparring with strikers, wrestler sparring with wrestlers, and grappler with grapplers...it's MMA... practicing MMA and calling it complete art like Combat Sambo does is just a joke for crazy nationalists or racists who don't want to accept reality...then they pretend to be what it is not for SUPERIORITY PROPAGANDA...
When BTT, the BJJ elite at the time, STARTED training wrestlers with wrestlers and no longer within their own style, and Strike with Muay Thay or Boxing and not within their own style, no one else said it was all BJJ, it was MMA, it was boxing, it was muay Thay and only the floor continued to be called BJJ...
wrestler it has always been INSIGNIFICANT IN BRAZIL, until today it is IMPOSSIBLE to learn decent wrestling in Brazil, there was a handful of Catch Wrestlers in Brazil for a while, but few too, when Vitor Belfort went to the US and learned some wrestling moves and returned to Brazil, he is a striker, caused amazement in the Jiujitsu crowd with the different type of movement he brought from the wrestler...because Brazil NEVER HAD A HIGH LEVEL WRESTLER... and still doesn't have one today, when they find a good mid/high level Is it an immigrant who fled from a war in Iran or came from Cuba, or something like that...
Alot of folks talking about where Helio got his standing self defense. I have watched video of those techniques and have seen them in alot of old wrestling manuals from the early 1900s and some of the techniques can be found in some of the earliest cqc manuals. so, I will venture to say that Helio did not invent them.
He never claimed to invent them,they are straight up judo self defense techniques, they have no relationship to wrestling at all.
@@scarred10 that's not true. You can believe that if you so wish, that's your right. History shows otherwise. His illustrious teacher was also known to fight and train with Catch wrestlers, as well. Yes, there is wresting in bjj
This is excellent, I have seen similar techniques taught by Zigurd Ogrens in Boston. Sieneuri Ryu or something like that spelling, of French origin I believe. I saw the techniques second hand, I was not a student there.
Anthony I don't see much BJJ here. The strikes are too held out (as in leaving your arm there for a throw to be applied). I would like to see some more ground work. There are similarities in the throws, such as the arm takedowns and the hip and stomach throws earlier. But again if some ground work could be shown then we could see a lot more similarities...
HI Anthony, I enjoy your videos very much.
I have been studying under Relson Gracie for several years and the standup self defense techniques are stressed alot. From what I know a lot of the techniques look similar to the techniques in Judo's goshin jutsu no kata. although we practice them a little less rigidly. Also mixed in are some judo type throws ( O goshi seems to be utilized the most). As far as ground work is concerned it is very similar to Kosen Judo in techniques but emphasizes "flow" a lot more.
There is no denying that Gracie jiu jitsu comes from judo, however we must not forget that whenever Maeda trained judo (at the time still called Kano jiu jitsu) judo looked a lot different from what it is today. just look at how much judo has changed in the last couple of decades.
Another point I would like to bring up although it is only my speculation is this : Maeda participated in prize fighting and so most likely favored the techniques that worked for him in the ring and most likely those are the techniques that he taught to the gracies (more focused on ground work and submissions) because in 1on 1 situation that stuff works really well.
Lastly I would like to bring something up that you Anthony might want to look into. When Maeda moved to Brazil and taught his judo/jiu jitsu, the gracies werent his only students. I wonder what happened to those people? Is there another style of brazilian jiu jitsu that does not trace its lineage back to the gracie family?
+jaraman9 good points
+jaraman9 those people probably accepted the title of judo when it came, and probably they didnt start their own schools
+jaraman9 osvaldo fadda is a student of luis franca who is also a student of mitsuyo maeda.
The Machados
The Gracies actually learned Judo from one of Maeda's apprentice. The Gracie brothers soon assualted their poor master because he prevented Carlos Gracie to represent Judo with a match against a Catchwrestler, because he is not a direct student of Maeda.
you should speak to the kosen/kodokan judo guys.
There is 100% evidence that Mataemon Tanabe was a representative of Fusen ryū. I think he was the man responsible for the Kodokan becoming more grappling efficient. It is documented that Tanabe had defeated several Kodokan Judokas using newaza (grappling) throughout the late 1880's - to the turn of the 20th century. To first understand what Kodokan Judo was like at that time frame (1880's-early 1900's), I will cite a few chapters from Jigoro Kano's autobiography: Mind Over Muscle
The following chapters is taken from pages 28-32 from Mind Over Muscle and details how katame-waza (grappling) was further included in Kodokan Judo:
NAGE-WAZA AND KATAME-WAZA
- "Next, I would like briefly to discuss free practice involving throwing and grappling techniques, which I will refer to by their Japanese names. When I was training, I practiced katame-waza quite a bit, but after coming to appreciate nage-waza when I learned Kito-ryū, I came to believe that nage-waza should be emphasized in the technical training aspects of judo. This does not mean I consider katame-waza to be useless, of course, but I stress practicing nage-waza first, followed then by katame-waza. This is because doing katame-waza first hinders progress in nage-waza, while it makes sense that learning nagewaza makes it easier to remember katame-waza at a later stage. When I established the Kodokan, I encouraged the practice of of nage-waza precisely for that reason. As a result, at that time a great number of experts in nage-waza were fostered in the early years of the Kodokan.
As a result of emphasizing nage-waza, however, katame-waza gradually became neglected. Sometime around 1887, masters from all the various schools around the country gathered at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department. Among them were experts in katame-waza. When competing against them, the Kodokan practitioners had no problem using nage-waza, but they had difficulty using katame-waza at first. The same thing happened in a series of competitions held in the Kyoto Butokukai with experts in katame-waza from around the country-the Kodokan practitioners easily won using nage-waza but struggled with the less familar katame-waza. For these reasons, more efforts were directed into the practice of katame-waza in which the Kodokan gained more prominence, and these days most practitioners at the Kodokan can hold their own against any opponent, whether with nage-waza or katame-waza.
I must point out , though, that as we progressed at katame-waza in the Kodokan, our progress at nage-waza was interrupted. There is a limit to one's energy, and when energy is expanded in one area, other areas become neglected-this is unavoidable. I am therefore giving serious thought to the randori of the future. If katame-waza are practiced after first emphasizing nage-waza, then it is possible for certain people to become highly skillful at both. Ordinarily, however, one cannot excel at both, so most people should put their energy into mastering nage-waza while devoting less of their energy to katame-waza, while those who are particularly interested in katame-waza may practice them as a main form. I plan to use this policy accordingly when giving instruction in the future.
I have outlined the general changes in judo techniques here, but would like to add something about the changes that have taken place in judging".
Next chapter will be provided in the next comment.
Next chapter is on pages 31-32:
IMPROVEMENT OF THE RULES FOR JUDGING
- "The Kodokan's rules for judging were drawn up the year following the establishment of Kodokan judo, but they were not finalized until 1900, when rules shared by the Butokukai were created. Until that time, the Butokukai had used the Kodokan's rules for judging. They felt, though, that there was a need for additional rules, and because the Kodokan itself was of the same mind, I drafted new rules and finalized them after listening to and carefully considering the thoughts of masters who gathered from around the country.
Most of those who gather at the Butokukai today are practitioners of Kodokan judo either directly or indirectly, but at that time many people were still practitioners of the various schools of jujutsu. Accordingly, the use of Kodokan judo's rules for judging was disadvantageous for them, so when regulations were proposed, various allowances were made. One example was if a person used ineffective techniques excessively and lay down out of fear of being thrown, this would be overlooked and no fault found. When formulating that rule, we felt there would be few negative effects, but when we actually implemented it we discovered that it was flawed in various ways. I consulted with, among others, the head of the Butokukai, and was asked whether something could be done to improve the situation. In the end we decided to revise the rule, and after many meetings with the principal people involved in both Tokyo and Kyoto, we finally formulated the revised judging rules in 1922. We still found more deficiencies in them, however, and after further revision the current rules were established in 1925. There may be a need to revise the rules even further in the future, but I think there is no doubt that the judging rules have improved after many years of study".
*Interesting to note that Kano specifically wrote "if a person used ineffective techniques excessively and lay down out of fear of being thrown, this would be overlooked and no fault found". What did Kano mean by "lay down out of fear of being thrown"? Pulling guard? It seems plausible that the variuos katame-waza jujutsu schools would pull guard to defeat Kano's students. I highly think in fact that that was the case of those various katame-waza based jujutsu schools at the time; that they would simply "lay down" or "pull guard" to defeat the Kodokan representatives. Pulling guard is known as "hikikomi" in Japanese. It literally means to "pull in" and is the common tactic used in Kosen Judo. More on kosen judo later.
Here is photographic evidence showing Fusen ryū representative Mataemon Tanabe. This photograph lists the names of the jujutsu masters and their schools right above their names. It is written in Japanese Kanji.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataemon_Tanabe#/media/File:Butokukai.jpg
Mataemon Tanabe's full name is written in Kanji in the bottom half (6th from left) and the name of his jujutsu school (Fusen ryū) is written above his name. Some of the kanji characters is written in old kanji. Kanji is read from left to right and read and written from top to bottom. Tanabe is standing 6th from left and is standing right behind Kodokan judo founder Jigoro Kano. Jigoro Kano is sitting in dead center. *Note that Kano being in the center displays his importance and hierarchy at the Butokukai.
The direct students of Mataemon Tanabe were Taro Miyake and Yukio Tani. Both Miyake and Tani went to England to open up their Jujutsu school in London, England in 1904. It also noted that in 1898, Tanabe had trained with Yataro Handa, a notable master of newaza; the school that is a descendant of Sekiguchi ryū. Both Miyake and Tani list that their masters were Mataemon Tanabe & Yataro Handa.
Link of Miyake and Tani in London, England: www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2016/09/the-original-bjj-new-discoveries-and-speculations-re-the-submission-grappling-of-british-jiu-jitsu/comment-page-1/
Here is a book that both Miyake and Tani wrote in 1906:
www.docdroid.net/PC2xkV8/the-game-of-jujitsu-yukio-tani-koizumi-1906.pdf#page=54
Read pages 41-50 and 57-63. It illustrates and details the open and closed guard and submissions from these guards.
All of this was before any Gracie or Brazilian learned "Jiu Jitsu".
How does this relate to BJJ? One can only speculate that Mitsuyo Maeda was taught the open & closed guard from his time in Japan between 1897-1904 or when he met up with Miyake and Tani in 1907. Refer back to the chapter in the first comment. Kano wrote that "more efforts were directed into the practice of katame-waza in which the Kodokan gained more prominence". Does that mean Tanabe had taught Kano his Fusen ryū style of katame-waza? One can only speculate that he did.
"As a result of emphasizing nage-waza, however, katame-waza gradually became neglected. Sometime around 1887, masters from all the various schools around the country gathered at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department. Among them were experts in katame-waza. When competing against them, the Kodokan practitioners had no problem using nage-waza, but they had difficulty using katame-waza at first. The same thing happened in a series of competitions held in the Kyoto Butokukai with experts in katame-waza from around the country-the Kodokan practitioners easily won using nage-waza but struggled with the less familar katame-waza. For these reasons, more efforts were directed into the practice of katame-waza in which the Kodokan gained more prominence, and these days most practitioners at the Kodokan can hold their own against any opponent, whether with nage-waza or katame-waza."
It is described that Mitsuyo Maeda first trained in Kodokan Judo in 1897 and left for the United States of America in 1904 with his teacher Tsunejiro Tomita. It is very possible that Tanabe had taught his newaza to Kano when he had beaten his students or that Maeda learned the use of the open and closed guard from his time in England with Miyake and Tani. It is noted that Tanabe either did teach his Fusen ryū to Jigoro Kano for no gain or was paid for teaching his grappling techniques.
Either way, the open and closed guard was used in Japan before any Gracie or Brazilian claimed to have invented it.
Look up BJJ lies The Hélio Gracie cult by Kron 'Flat Earth' Gracie (no disrespect to Hélio Gracie) here on YT and you'll hear Kron say that his grandfather Hélio Gracie invented the guard.
Link of Mitsuyo Maeda meeting up with Tanabe's students Taro Miyake & Yukio Tani in London, England circa 1907:
www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2017/10/mitsuyo-maeda-in-england-1907-08/
Thank you for these links BigJules89! Great research. Please keep illuminating our minds!
Looks good but none of the punches of kicks are in landing distance.
That makes a big difference on the reaction time
Looks more like aikido I'm almost positive most the ground work or newaza was made in the kosen judo schools or ryus but this looks alot like aikido with a lil more judo influence
Hi Antony. Great video. Thanks for the Fusen Ryu footage. I heard a story, and I have no idea if this is true, that for a while the Gracies were in fued with the Judo community, and they tried to say that they had nothing to do with them, that their art came from Fusen Ryu. Don't get me wrong, I have a great appreciation for BJJ, i have a blue belt, but the Gracies have been known to tell some tall tales.
the gracies never even heard of fusen ryu,youre possibly referring to john danahers foreward to renzo gracies book.Its true that they claimed it was jujitsu rather than judo that carlos learned but never specified which style.
This is Daito ryu aikijujicu
Good examples of sparring with throws here. Should be brought into Bujinkan.
Should be brought into all schools of tradational jujutsu
You should look into Kosen Judo as well Antony Cummins.
Fusen is Kito Ryo
this is dont brazilian jiu jitsu! This is REAL Jujutsu!
Looks like judo/shorinji kempo...
Legit old school japanese juijitsu.
around 2.12 its a shoulder wheel throw, traditional Ju Jitsu ...
HELLO TO ALL NINJA AND SAMURAI ENTHUSIASTS!!! ON BEHALF OF ANTONY CUMMINS I WOULD LIKE TO INFORM YOU THAT HE DOESN'T RECEIVE NOTIFICATIONS FOR REPLIES TO HIS REPLIES. IF YOU ARE NEW TO THE CHANNEL ANTONY WOULD LIKE YOU TO START BY WATCHING HIS 2020 DOCUMENTARY.
actually it looks alot like the tenshin hyoho kukishin ryu and the asayamaichiden ryu. certainly based on some of the original jujustu (kempo) style.
I've never seen a Jujutsu or Taijutsu school do sparring this way. Respectfully, are you sure it's not some sort of Japanese karate style?
Hey Anthony I´ve returned because I couldn ´t find the Kunoichi video. If TH-cam hasn´t removed it then you´re the one who best knows where it is. Could you please send me a link?
I can not find it either. I have too many videos. TH-cam did pull some down. I have a small chapter on them in my book In Search of teh Ninja. There is not much to know. Its a sort of sub spy helper.
@@AntonyCummins I´ve read some Kunoichi-stuff from Stephen Hayes´ old books. I especially remember the female-character Chiyome Mochizuki, and that her uncle should have been the powerful Shingen Takeda, who was in strong rivalry with a man named Kenjin Uesugi if I´ve spelled it correct. She drowe an orphanage for homeless girls, where she raised them, was like a family for them, made them loyal and taught them the Kunoichiskills. Espionage was something that quickly became natural for them. They learned how to use their gender to charm and manipulate men. They could fight but it´s my impression that the correct kind of acting in any situation was more emphasized. It was more important to not get revealed as a spy than anything else. They must have been very good at talking and excusing themselves out of any suspicious and potential dangerous situation is my impression. The kind of intelligence we would cunningness if it is called so in correct English. A shame that the video is gone. I think I´ll have to buy some of your books then. I already have your Bansenshukai, Shoninki and Ninpiden/Shinobi Hiden. Isn´t thats rights that Ninpiden and Shinobi Hiden are the same? I think I´ll get the one "The dark side of Japan" and the book about Kujikiri and Kujiin to get wiser on these aspects of the art. My martial skills are great therefore I think it´s more important for me to focus on these aspects of the art. The art of fighting without fighting or more subtle ways of fighting is just as cool as the very physical and concrete ways of fighting.
@@renehenriksen1735 Hello renehenriksen1735. Just want to let you know that Antony doesn't receive notifications for replies to his replies so he didn't see your follow up comment.
I agree with you. Your comment reminds me of two things; a Sun Tzu quote saying " It is far better to outwit your enemy than to outfight them." and this book called The Delicate Dependency about these vampires who only used pure intellect against their enemies, no physical violence. It forever changed my thought process. To be a creature of pure intellect. They were on a whole other level and since it is fiction I still practice the physical aspects of martial arts but this ideal heavily influences how I would apply the physical techniques. I still practice the physical techniques for just in case but it definitely changed my life for the better in the sense that I will never get in a physical confrontation again if it is ever due to an argument for example. I will never engage with anyone physically because I also choose to be a creature of pure intellect. Yet since I do still live in this world and violence is a part of this world unfortunately, I still want to stay sharp on the application of physical techniques but now I always contemplate how to apply them without severely harming the attacker if at all. For the most part I focus on evading confrontation as my first line of defense.
Also funny they do a belt system when master kano developed the system
Kosen Judo
Traditional Japanese jujitsu. Good stuff .
Jiu-jitsu tradicional muito Bom
no this is not the style takeda motsuge
developed his style was based on ground fighting.
this is not real fusen ryu jiu jitsu
A lot of these throws look very similar to modern Hapkido.
+fullyautomaticgerman
Yes they do, Helio did not incorporate these techniques.
His self defense techniques are in more of a Judo style - lots of hip throws to finish, etc.
Hapkido is a direct decendent of Daito Ryu .
Being a UFC fan I've just recently got the Gracie combatives DVD which contains everything of there syllabus up to blue belt (about half way to black belt). They are all about clinching and talking the opponent to the ground, and defending yourself if you have been taken to the ground. They claim to prepared you to defend yourself in most street fight as most fights end up on the floor. If you are interested in seeing it let me know.
If you want to see them in action Hickson Gracie is regarded as the best ever practitioner, several videos on you tube one of which is a good documentary called 'Choke'.
not even close, blue belt is an experienced novice, purple would be halfway to black
That's not Gracie Jujitsu that is the old style of nihon Jujitsu my father was a instructor of Jujitsu and close quarter combat for the US Navy from 1955-1965 at Cambridge Maryland training station, Gracie is just pre WW2 Judo not Jujitsu
Nice 👍 thanks man for your efforts
Muito BOM
It looks like traditional jujitsu... like Daito Ryu Aiki jujitsu and its sister lineages. I practice a similar style when I was young.
Hi, Antony, I love your work and what you're doing for the MA community!
I've been practicing BJJ (Primarily Gracie Academy system but dabble in other schools of grappling as well) for almost 7 years now since I was 16. I am now 23. I also had done Shaolin Kempo before that for about 3 years which had some traditional Japanese Jujitsu within the system.
The style presented in this video doesn't really seem to have much in common with our system. Obviously, some of the core principles exist (Leverage, body positioning, using their momentum etc) But I think that's just because physics works the same no matter what "style" you do.
These guys tend to focus on catching strikes out of the air and flowing into a technique from there. This, in my opinion, sounds EXTREMELY difficult to do and in my own personal experience, I might even venture to say it is too hard to rely on pulling off in a real fight.
In our system we do not try to catch anything flying at us but instead time between strikes to "shoot in" to either go for a shot style takedown (Tackle kind of thing) or establish a "clinch" (Bear hug kind of thing) position on the person snuffing their ability to throw effective strikes and from there look for a sweep or trip to get them down where we would finish the fight.
Having competed in grappling matches with fully resisting opponents, I am not a fan of wrist locks, at all. Not to sound proud or full of myself, but I am almost 100% certain I would never be caught in a wrist lock from a free standing position if I was resisting. However, it is my personal theory that wrist locks have their own niche in a fight which would explain their popularity among traditional arts. Grappling for an OBJECT is different than grappling a person. If we're in a grapple on a battle field and we were trying to get something like a sword or knife out of each other's hands, twisting your wrist around might be more of a viable option as the focus is not on takedowns and submissions but more getting the weapon.
In BJJ our focus is get you to the ground PERIOD and then win from there. But in traditional JJ the focus tends to be on getting the opponent to the ground while you are still standing which makes sense if you're on a battle field with a weapon. BJJ is more for if someone tries to attack you, you grab onto them and hang on for dear life while utilizing leverage and skill to defeat or survive an attack from what might be a bigger, stronger person.
I hope any of this helps your research, Antony. We need more historians in the MMA side of things. I hope your quest to show the world true Ninjutsu goes well. For everyone's sake...
I also trained BJJ started in 07, wrist locks are not common, but they are taught, from standing and on the ground, and the overall emphasis is they can work. Even Keenan Cornelius did a video showing some wrist locks that he uses occasionally.
+prodigypenn Actually wrist locks were a speciality of bjj red belt Oswaldo Alves. His student, Fredson Paixao, used them a lot in Bjj competition .
This is almost identical to the style of Japanese jiujitsu I got my third degree black belt in. I have since over the past 20 years since, added catch wrestling, BJJ and Muay Thai. Combining old style jiujitsu with realistic sparring creates a very well rounded self defence system. Whilst I love BJJ it is impractical to spend so much time on the ground, the idea of wearing down a bigger opponent might make sense in a refereed fight, but not in the street. If you haven’t finished the guy within 10 to 20 seconds or so, better to get back to your feet and run away, unless of course you are defending others.
Fusen Jujitsu is combat effective compared to BJJ. I can tell these techniques are geared towards multiple combat while BJJ is only good for combat sport's. And that only!!!!
What you can tell from this video is that this doesn't work at all,no resistance, speed,power or intent in any attack. This fusen Ryu had zero I influence on either judo or bjj which by the way was until the 1990s a style for vale tudo, not sport bjj.
Great stuff nick.Antony's got a hard -on for GJJ or Bjj.You don't have to keep trying to justify Ninjutsu against Bjj, it's obviously jealousy...
Why is the student always slapping his thigh?
Don't think that's a bjj, allthough i don't know bjj. You can see the Gracie tectiques for yourself i think through youtube and you can contact them if you like for more info.
i'm surprised as a researcher you don't know more about this. you need to give credit in whatever books you write to us, i'll be expecting a check in the mail.
BJJ/GJJ is completely based off of Katame Waza which, as almost everyone knows, was introduced to the gracies by Maeda who was a disciple of Oda(most don't know this). Oda was a brilliant Katame Waza specialist and is credited by many of re-asserting grappling into Judo. Guard and guard sweeps can be all seen in old footage of Oda sensei, long before Helio. There is also a Kendo vid from the 30's around here that ends up on the ground and these old guys (50s) pull each other into the guard.
Anyhow, Judo was developed from a guy name Kano who was a high ranking dan(10th?) in Jujutsu. Kano was extremely passionate about Jujutsu, learning from various ryu, and wanted to show case the art in competition. Jujutsu was far too brutal so, he developed a sport with that specific reason in mind and found Kodokan ryu. pro tip: The uke in most of those demo vids with Kano was the great Mifune.
The claim that the gracies make, of helio unable to perform the techniques because of his stature, ive always found odd. Kano, Mifune, Iso, etc. were even smaller. 5 footish. helio was a whopping 5'9. weird.
finally, the lineage is actually jujutsu->judo->gjj. and with the first public ryu of jujutsu opening in the 780s there is a lot of history to development of this martial art. you're a bad bad researcher.
Lad you really need to do some research before typing. Katame waz are pinning techniques , its newaza that bjj is based on with so e rudimentary throws and self defense,all from kodokan judo. Maeda was not a student of oda ,he was senior or contemporary of oda and left Japan in 1908 prior to any division between kosen rule and kodokan.The footage your referring to is from the 1950s,30 yrs after helio started training but yes everything helio learned was judo.
Nope before BJJ, was Judo.
If you were looking for BJJ ground fighting you need to look no further than Judo's Katame-waza. Some researcher you are.
It comes from Kosen judo This is nothing like it
It's very much like Aikido. So before art went all sporty. It wasn't the same art. LOL
Looks closer to Aiki-jitsu or Naihan jujitsu, I also see some techniques that are found in chinese chin-na the striking looks like basic atemi/ karate. There are some similar grappling techniques in the original Helio Gracie Jiu-jitsu, known as the self defenses. Most of the schools have discarded the "self defenses" as well as the wrist attacks and standing straight arm/ shoulder lock throws, for the more functional body lock/ clinch and ground techniques you see in UFC and BJJ tournaments.
The randori in BJJ/GJJ is more like a mix of Kosen judo and catch wrestling, and the match isn't restarted once you get taken to the ground; It restarts when someone is submitted.
The randori here is much more like traditional jujutsu, and there doesn't seem to be much ne waza in this branch of Fusen ryu.
You would need a video of the ne waza for a better comparison. (Fyi, BJJ is more so based off Kosen judo, which in itself, is inspired by the ne waza of Fusen ryu.)
The story is extremely varied.
But in all seriousness, regardless, it still is judo and catch wrestling that are the main influences.
Nick Vázquez
Catch Wrestling is not a influence in bjj. bjj´s only influence is early kodokan judo.
Click186 That is simply untrue my friend. Second generation Gracies were extremely involved in wrestling and sambo styles, especially Rolls Gracie, who was a monolithic figure in its development. Maeda is said to have incorporated catch wrestling into his judo and it is not a stretch of the imagination to suggest that his judo game at least changed to suit the threat of the many catch wrestlers he fought in his career.
Nick Vázquez Kosen didn't flourish until the early 20th century. Maeda had already left in 1903 which, if Kosen had existed, would have been in its infancy. He might have been aware of the developments, but what he taught to the Gracies seems to have been standard Kodokan. Old videos and articles, etc. suggest there wasn't as much of an emphasis on ground in the founding of GJJ as there was once the second generation rose to prominence. The similarities are coincidence in my opinion.
Josh Okami
Note that the kodokan judo of today is far away from the kodokan judo of the early 20th century. The old style kodokan judo of the early 20th century (in which Maeda was involved in) had a lot emphasis on the ground (also with leglocks). And this concept (emphasis on the ground) was transferred to kosen judo later. The only difference between kosen and early kodokan judo is, that kosen bans leglocks now. And when I watch kosen judo I see bjj wtihout leglocks.
No, completely wrong.
Actually the way you spell Jiujitsu not this way perhaps you’re right Japanese jujitsu you’re basically upside down six ways to Sunday sorry
BJJ is just a sport compared to any of the other schools of jiujitsu. It lacks the atemi waza applications and unfortunately emphasis strength.
*****
Obviously you have no practical experience. So please offer some evidence. And by the way I'm easy to find.
You must no know much about Gracie jiu Jitsu.
+elosoloco1000
I don't want to know anything about BJJ because when 2 or 3 thugs are trying or attacking you on the streets all your grappling and trying to take some one on the floor will only help to put you in the hospital or worse. What I know is what ever you practice my friend is what you're going to do in emergencies. And it is you who needs to wake and know the difference between the sport and practical skills. End of lesson.
+David Lebron
BJJ is good for what it does, Judo relies more on strength than BJJ though.
I personally found Judo easy to learn and BJJ difficult but most people are the opposite.
Then again I'm large and strong with good balance, most people are weak and skinny and fall down all the time. lol
At the end of the day good BJJ is better than bad Judo and BJJ does have some Judo throws depending where you train.
Agreed. A Karate master wrote a book a while back titled the "Karate Dojo" it also specified the advantages of different body types like speed, mobility and sizes. It is very important to know what are your strengths and weaknesses and adapt techiques your can use effectively TO DEFEND against in body type.And that's the meaning of martial arts. The art of not struggling or fighting.
lol looks like aikido..which it is-they all come from the same arts-ai yai yai
This appears to be a mixture of Judo and Kung Fu.
The Gracie self defense is a different style than this, much simpler.
I have a hard time believing Helio invented it, perhaps Maeda trained in other schools?
+petersouth1000 type in budokwai YUKIO TANI theres a black and white video from 1909 or something. All ground work. Fusen Ryu.
Bob Belson
Gracie self defense is almost all standing. It encompasses knife, gun, stick, chair, headlock, punch defense.
Pretty sure Helio invented most of them at this point.
These techniques are in more of an aiki style where his technique work more like judo and require no momentum.
petersouth1000
I taught you were refering to the ground fighting. Gracie self defense comes Maeda as Franca/Fadda lineage of BJJ has half of the same moves.
Bob Belson
That's what I thought at first but I cannot find any Japanese source for these techniques.
petersouth1000
Gracie self defense looks like basic jujutsu techniques, pretty common. The only real difference is less "LARPing". haha
Meet my new Grand Master you guys.
This looks more like a McJitsu when compared against other traditional Jujitsu styles.
Fuse Ryu haven't ground fighting
have notice these also in ninjutsu even tho it is military type art shinobi no mono dose gorilla type war fair long with spying intel work and sometime assassination nice video
THIS is really hard work my drill with dummy is all hard work no play finger where dummy center gravity at but throw it 70lb same easy but no it hard when dead weight live weight be little hard even jujitsu all hard work
gracie jiujitsu ferived from kito ryu jiu jitsu and yagyu shingan ryu and tenjin shinyo ryu .
+Yakuza tattoo Maeda who taught the Gracies only studied Judo and Sumo. LOL Prove me wrong.
+Bob Belson (JEW-JITSU) He was an experienced jiu jitsuka before he ever studied Kodokan judo.
Vince Millett
"Maeda was born in Funazawa Village, Hirosaki City, Aomori Prefecture, Japan, on November 18, 1878. He attended Kenritsu Itiu high school (currently Hirokou-a Hirosaki school).[1] As a child, he was known as Hideyo.[5] He practiced sumo as a teenager, but lacked the ideal build for the sport. Because of the interest generated by stories about the success of judo at contests between judo and jujutsu that were occurring at the time, he changed from sumo to judo. In 1894, at seventeen years of age, his parents sent him to Tokyo to enroll in Waseda University. He took up Kodokan judo the following year.[1]"
LOL!
There is no Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Brazilian JIU JITSU...
The name is wrong. Brazilian Ju Jutsu not exist. The name of the System is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Ju Jutsu and the Jiu Jitsu Systems are different Systems.
+Ray ZXA that's just silly. jiu jitsu IS the same as ju jutsu. It just so happens that us brazilians spelled it "jiu jitsu" cos thats how people heard it and wrote it down here. for instance, the letter "U" as spoken in english, if written down in portuguese based on sound, it's written "IU", since our "U" actually sounds like your "OO", and so on.
+xeamus
Jiu jitsu is the spelling used in the english speaking world from the 1890's thru the 1960's
Pretty lame.