users: how do we increase marketshare devs: we make better defaults and seamless installations from telemetry to identify problems users: no not like that CRAZY how all the best platforms and programs use it. almost like it always makes it better
My personal philosophy is this: If FOSS and ONLY FOSS asks me first for data collection and it's only for hardware stuff to make it better I always say yes. On KDE I have manually set it so it gets all info from me in crash reports etc. The moment FOSS start selling my data however I not only would turn it off, I would also stop using said software.
I don't mind sharing my data with a FOSS project if they're going to use it to actually fix and improve the things they make that I use. My main issue is when they suck up the data by default without ever asking and then turn around and use that for marketing or sell that info to someone else.
I think opt-in with opt-out/refinement during installation/usage. A common library with a settings page, accessed within the settings panel and the application, to choose what is acceptable to communicate.
You're a great salesman. I've seen too many companies start out with something like this then gradually move to something worse. Sure, I can see that Manjaro may well start out with good intent. However, organizations change over time along with the people involved. Personally, I'd rather not be involved to begin with.
I'm against any type of data collection on my systems. Since it never stops, once someone is hooked on data collection, it will keep expanding until it can collect everything. Even if it starts out innocent enough, such as to improve the software, knowing what hardware your users have will allow you to track how often a person upgrades their hardware as well as their general budget. At some point, it will become too hard to resist, and selling the data you have collected thus far will seem like the only logical option. I ditched Manjaro 6 months ago so it won't effect me. It was obvious after that Proprietary Office stuff they started shipping
I don't care how innocuous telemetry is *right now*. By implementing opt out telemetry at all, you're telling me it's your choice what data you collect, not mine. I'd never use an OS I have an antagonistic relationship where I have to keep tabs on every update to make sure it doesn't flip more switches I don't want flipped. That's literally one of the reasons people switch from Windows.
Its a tough sale for sure. Even Linux Mint does their own data analytics through Datadog for similar reasons. Its not a 1:1 here as Mint was just looking for how was downloading what edition etc but I understand distros needing to know what their users use, wants needs etc. HOWEVER, the user needs to be consulted immediately about it (opt in or out) and fine grain control of what gets reported. I'm no developer but I can see that a simple application to do check boxes of "I want to do this, that, not this" etc. I personally don't like data collection due to its abuse, but at the same time I understand its a 2 way street. Its one thing to be opt out and not yell your users (*cough cough* firefox) vs being upfront, honest and clear what it is what you're doing.
1- it should be opt-in only 2- it should list all type of data to be collected 3- any personal identifiable data should be replaced with hashed function (could be seeded with user account name for multiuser login)
Whenever a distribution (i.e. fedora recently) tries to convince that this type of data collection "will improve next releases" it NEVER seems to be accompanied with a committment to report regularly to the end-users / contributors how their data actually resulted in specific improvements that would otherwise not have been possible. I still have to meet the first person/blog that explains with some clear examples which improvements can actually be expected? I basically just don't want those Kb/Gb data to flow out of my network without understanding the purpose.
I think that as long as the collected data can be checked before it is sent by the user themselves, and the choice for participation is made during installation where everybody has to make the choice then that would be an acceptable option for me. Even if I would not check the data myself, enough people would check it to unearth any shenanigans/risk with said data.
Those saying "opt-out is never ok" did you watch the whole video? Do you guys _want_ the linux to grow on the desktop? If yes how _would_ you proof to application developers that our userbase is large enough to be worthwhile?
There should be no asymmetry to withhold consent. Requiring an extra step to opt-out demonstrates little care went into it and does not inspire confidence. The simple middle ground is to present a mandatory Yes / No choice without a default. It's like a speedbump, but it's important enough to require the user to interact, and to demonstrate their choice is taken seriously. Using a "No" answer as telemetry would be a dirty trick.
it would be interesting to have some usage data. an open source project with an open data set. everyone could decide to contribute data, and use the data to make reports
Freebsd has a website where newbies and users report willing to share their data, and it works quite well.At least it's a choice not a feature no users ask for it...
Why wouldn't metrics from the software repository be sufficient? It doesn't give up any information about the user (except IP address etc) and if you already have mate-desktop 1.28.2-2 will you generally download it again? No. If an organization has exactly 19 computers behind your NAT, it will generally show exactly 19 downloads to mate-desktop (for example). Now there are some software repository caches meant to reduce downloads for large organizations, maybe they could gather metrics from them to compensate? I dunno.
I think your logic of “well, people aren’t going to do it if it’s opt-in, so we have to do it opt-out” is reasonable and effective but also very dangerous. That means your starting point is you assume you’re doing the right thing, and proceed to do so without spending the effort to try convince them. That is some fertile breeding ground for abusive tactics in the future. Maybe you show your current data to your sponsors and they’re still not convinced, so you go and do more aggressive data collection, all the while believing you’re still on the good side. And it will grow into a “we’ve come too far to go back” situation. And then at some point you mess something up, and somebody caught you in the act, and the whole thing blows up, and at that point you have managed to poison the well for all other people who is doing any kind of telemetry, opt-in or opt-out anyway. The “proper” way in my view is you have to do it the hard way, namely can only do opt-in, and you channel most of your energy into doing PSAs and changing perception that you’ll always ask before doing such a thing. If you value efficiency and effectiveness above the proper communication, you’re gonna end up at the place as Microsoft now. Very few “evil” entities deliberately do evil intentionally from the start. The road to hell is more often that not paved with good intentions.
Well it has been awhile since Manjaro screwed something up 🤣. I do expect them to do the right thing but probably in the "wrong way" given their history... something something certificates multiple times . In all seriousness its not a distro I use but I look forward to seeing if they can change my opinion on the subject for sure. I believe even Fedora has talked about this as well so its a matter of time before it comes to a distro near you.
@samarthnagar2939 please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
Opt-out is NOT ethical (and almost certainly a violation of GDPR here in the EU). Maybe such a practice is acceptable to you, but it is not for me. Manjaro is now permabanned from all systems I control or have a say in. And if Arch does something like this, I'm leaving it, too. And if GNU/Linux follows your advice and implements this everywhere, I'm leaving it for BSD. The line has to be drawn here. This far and NOT further. No opt-out stuff. Not ever.
good more people should do this. no ones gonna go out of their way to turn it on lol. unless your proofreading every line of code, they could just be stealing your stuff anyways. if they say they aren't abusing data you may as well believe them too
Opt-out is honestly really bad and I find it disappointing that you think this is the right way to do it. The way Debian does this is pretty nice, you get a step on the installer asking if you want to enable it. The default option is OFF, you can enable it if you want at any time. I'm not saying the Manjaro team is acting in bad faith, but these "surprise" enable telemetry updates is one of the reasons I got away from Microsoft in the first place. Weather the amount of shared information is reasonable or not is different for each user. Maybe you're okay sharing your country, other people probably aren't. Maybe they'll update the amount of information shared, maybe they'll turn it back on in another update. This break of trust is a slippery slope. The argument you make that a person would be too distracted to notice this new telemetry update works the other way as well. A distracted user that does not want to share their location for whatever reason can now start sharing it without realizing. Distributions should empower the user, opt-out is empowering someone else.
How do you feel about this case? Manjaro isn’t going behind users back since they are telling people up front about it and it’s not opt-out yet so no one has been affected by it unless they chose to
I like Manjaro Cinnamon...but mine is already installed. Like you, I'll keep a weather eye out if an update slaps this opt-out on my existing distro. Aloha!
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
@@michael_tunnell Mahalo for your prompt reply! I did watch, and I'm intrigued. I'm an old man in his 7th decade of life. For my part, I don't approve of the timezone part of this metric-gathering change. My threat model could never require such granular security...but very few people live in Hawaii. As a result, when I do browser fingerprint tests...as you can imagine...my browser signature is nearly always unique. That's just a silly browser. What do pentesters and security people think about this stuff on their machines? No big deal for me. Much aloha to you!
I agree but we don’t have any indication that this it would. Right now we’re in the wait-and-see mode. The fact that they became public with this before doing it suggest that they’ll do it right.
Totally agree, just a thought that I had in a worst case vacuum. It definitely happens in the proprietary world. @@michael_tunnell. I think like youve suggested, Manjaro needs to do this right. I like KDE plasmas slider approach at install
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
Neither will I. I don't trust anyone who collects data opt-out. You ask me politely before any collecting, and I'll consider it. You go behind my back and you're done.
its not in Manjaro yet so not sure but thats up to Mabox devs also please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
Opt-in by default collection of PII is illegal under the GDPR. Someone who works in marketing/advertising should be well aware of that. It's inherently impossible to anonymize PII or it wouldn't be PII to begin with.
Isn't that going against the GDPR ? I've my doubt that this is legal. Manjaro is run by a german company so I think they technically can't do this. At least not without being opt-in by default.
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
@@bhargavjitbhuyan9394 It's just a worse Arch linux really. They hold back packages by 2 weeks to make it more "stable" but in reality, you just get the same bugs as upstream arch, but 2 weeks later. If you want an "easy" arch-based distro, just go with Endeavour, Garuda, Cachyos. There are far better options than Manjaro.
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
I'm not happy with this I switched to Linux from Windows in April because of Microsoft behaviour and privacy I'm using Manjaro and I don't want them to collect my Data It should be opt In only if you want most people won't notice or fiddle with settings People don't want their data to be used and sent somewhere 😢😢 So goodbuy Manjaro just switched to Open Suse I hope Linux won't do the same like Microsoft?
please watch the video before making decisions on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this kind of thing
I think its one thing to make it opt in, not tell your users nor ask you on first boot (or at installation) your preferences (make it opt out there then?) vs just doing something and making your users "figure it out" hopefully they make the right decision.
Russian Troll here - sad to say, but after 5 years of subscription - I see me unsubscribing, as your country has led wars - and therefor I can no longer accept your effort ... :,[
Manjaro: "We need your data to find out what our users want."
Users: "We don't want opt-out data collection."
Manjaro: "No, not like that."
users: how do we increase marketshare
devs: we make better defaults and seamless installations from telemetry to identify problems
users: no not like that
CRAZY how all the best platforms and programs use it. almost like it always makes it better
My personal philosophy is this: If FOSS and ONLY FOSS asks me first for data collection and it's only for hardware stuff to make it better I always say yes. On KDE I have manually set it so it gets all info from me in crash reports etc. The moment FOSS start selling my data however I not only would turn it off, I would also stop using said software.
I don't mind sharing my data with a FOSS project if they're going to use it to actually fix and improve the things they make that I use. My main issue is when they suck up the data by default without ever asking and then turn around and use that for marketing or sell that info to someone else.
I think opt-in with opt-out/refinement during installation/usage. A common library with a settings page, accessed within the settings panel and the application, to choose what is acceptable to communicate.
The fact that they're displaying data makes it feel less 'surveillanc-y', to me...
You're a great salesman. I've seen too many companies start out with something like this then gradually move to something worse. Sure, I can see that Manjaro may well start out with good intent. However, organizations change over time along with the people involved. Personally, I'd rather not be involved to begin with.
I like your channel because it has a moderate opinion, linux desktop adoption won't come frome extreme adoptions
I'm against any type of data collection on my systems. Since it never stops, once someone is hooked on data collection, it will keep expanding until it can collect everything. Even if it starts out innocent enough, such as to improve the software, knowing what hardware your users have will allow you to track how often a person upgrades their hardware as well as their general budget. At some point, it will become too hard to resist, and selling the data you have collected thus far will seem like the only logical option. I ditched Manjaro 6 months ago so it won't effect me. It was obvious after that Proprietary Office stuff they started shipping
I don't care how innocuous telemetry is *right now*. By implementing opt out telemetry at all, you're telling me it's your choice what data you collect, not mine. I'd never use an OS I have an antagonistic relationship where I have to keep tabs on every update to make sure it doesn't flip more switches I don't want flipped. That's literally one of the reasons people switch from Windows.
Its a tough sale for sure. Even Linux Mint does their own data analytics through Datadog for similar reasons. Its not a 1:1 here as Mint was just looking for how was downloading what edition etc but I understand distros needing to know what their users use, wants needs etc.
HOWEVER, the user needs to be consulted immediately about it (opt in or out) and fine grain control of what gets reported. I'm no developer but I can see that a simple application to do check boxes of "I want to do this, that, not this" etc.
I personally don't like data collection due to its abuse, but at the same time I understand its a 2 way street. Its one thing to be opt out and not yell your users (*cough cough* firefox) vs being upfront, honest and clear what it is what you're doing.
1- it should be opt-in only
2- it should list all type of data to be collected
3- any personal identifiable data should be replaced with hashed function (could be seeded with user account name for multiuser login)
I always opt in, especially for KDE
Whenever a distribution (i.e. fedora recently) tries to convince that this type of data collection "will improve next releases" it NEVER seems to be accompanied with a committment to report regularly to the end-users / contributors how their data actually resulted in specific improvements that would otherwise not have been possible. I still have to meet the first person/blog that explains with some clear examples which improvements can actually be expected? I basically just don't want those Kb/Gb data to flow out of my network without understanding the purpose.
I think that as long as the collected data can be checked before it is sent by the user themselves, and the choice for participation is made during installation where everybody has to make the choice then that would be an acceptable option for me. Even if I would not check the data myself, enough people would check it to unearth any shenanigans/risk with said data.
Those saying "opt-out is never ok" did you watch the whole video?
Do you guys _want_ the linux to grow on the desktop? If yes how _would_ you proof to application developers that our userbase is large enough to be worthwhile?
I like the thumbnail :D
There should be no asymmetry to withhold consent. Requiring an extra step to opt-out demonstrates little care went into it and does not inspire confidence. The simple middle ground is to present a mandatory Yes / No choice without a default. It's like a speedbump, but it's important enough to require the user to interact, and to demonstrate their choice is taken seriously.
Using a "No" answer as telemetry would be a dirty trick.
it would be interesting to have some usage data. an open source project with an open data set. everyone could decide to contribute data, and use the data to make reports
Freebsd has a website where newbies and users report willing to share their data, and it works quite well.At least it's a choice not a feature no users ask for it...
Why wouldn't metrics from the software repository be sufficient? It doesn't give up any information about the user (except IP address etc) and if you already have mate-desktop 1.28.2-2 will you generally download it again? No. If an organization has exactly 19 computers behind your NAT, it will generally show exactly 19 downloads to mate-desktop (for example). Now there are some software repository caches meant to reduce downloads for large organizations, maybe they could gather metrics from them to compensate? I dunno.
I think your logic of “well, people aren’t going to do it if it’s opt-in, so we have to do it opt-out” is reasonable and effective but also very dangerous. That means your starting point is you assume you’re doing the right thing, and proceed to do so without spending the effort to try convince them. That is some fertile breeding ground for abusive tactics in the future. Maybe you show your current data to your sponsors and they’re still not convinced, so you go and do more aggressive data collection, all the while believing you’re still on the good side. And it will grow into a “we’ve come too far to go back” situation. And then at some point you mess something up, and somebody caught you in the act, and the whole thing blows up, and at that point you have managed to poison the well for all other people who is doing any kind of telemetry, opt-in or opt-out anyway.
The “proper” way in my view is you have to do it the hard way, namely can only do opt-in, and you channel most of your energy into doing PSAs and changing perception that you’ll always ask before doing such a thing.
If you value efficiency and effectiveness above the proper communication, you’re gonna end up at the place as Microsoft now. Very few “evil” entities deliberately do evil intentionally from the start. The road to hell is more often that not paved with good intentions.
Well it has been awhile since Manjaro screwed something up 🤣. I do expect them to do the right thing but probably in the "wrong way" given their history... something something certificates multiple times . In all seriousness its not a distro I use but I look forward to seeing if they can change my opinion on the subject for sure. I believe even Fedora has talked about this as well so its a matter of time before it comes to a distro near you.
Yes but this is ohh man disastrous
@samarthnagar2939 please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
@@michael_tunnell Your thumbnail plays into glancing youtube users forming such opinions.
Opt-out is NOT ethical (and almost certainly a violation of GDPR here in the EU). Maybe such a practice is acceptable to you, but it is not for me. Manjaro is now permabanned from all systems I control or have a say in. And if Arch does something like this, I'm leaving it, too. And if GNU/Linux follows your advice and implements this everywhere, I'm leaving it for BSD. The line has to be drawn here. This far and NOT further. No opt-out stuff. Not ever.
good more people should do this. no ones gonna go out of their way to turn it on lol.
unless your proofreading every line of code, they could just be stealing your stuff anyways. if they say they aren't abusing data you may as well believe them too
Opt-out is honestly really bad and I find it disappointing that you think this is the right way to do it. The way Debian does this is pretty nice, you get a step on the installer asking if you want to enable it. The default option is OFF, you can enable it if you want at any time.
I'm not saying the Manjaro team is acting in bad faith, but these "surprise" enable telemetry updates is one of the reasons I got away from Microsoft in the first place. Weather the amount of shared information is reasonable or not is different for each user. Maybe you're okay sharing your country, other people probably aren't. Maybe they'll update the amount of information shared, maybe they'll turn it back on in another update. This break of trust is a slippery slope.
The argument you make that a person would be too distracted to notice this new telemetry update works the other way as well. A distracted user that does not want to share their location for whatever reason can now start sharing it without realizing. Distributions should empower the user, opt-out is empowering someone else.
I don't mind providing data, but I think the option should be opt-in by default.
its ok to opt in
~manjaro
Ask
And I'll approve
Go behind my back
Time to install new distro
How do you feel about this case? Manjaro isn’t going behind users back since they are telling people up front about it and it’s not opt-out yet so no one has been affected by it unless they chose to
Theres's only 1 time zone in France if you wonder ;)
Most of Europe. I set some country and not mine.
I like Manjaro Cinnamon...but mine is already installed. Like you, I'll keep a weather eye out if an update slaps this opt-out on my existing distro. Aloha!
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
@@michael_tunnell Mahalo for your prompt reply!
I did watch, and I'm intrigued. I'm an old man in his 7th decade of life.
For my part, I don't approve of the timezone part of this metric-gathering change.
My threat model could never require such granular security...but very few people live in Hawaii. As a result, when I do browser fingerprint tests...as you can imagine...my browser signature is nearly always unique.
That's just a silly browser. What do pentesters and security people think about this stuff on their machines?
No big deal for me. Much aloha to you!
Opt-out is a huge problem if a device phones home before you can turn it off
I agree but we don’t have any indication that this it would. Right now we’re in the wait-and-see mode. The fact that they became public with this before doing it suggest that they’ll do it right.
Totally agree, just a thought that I had in a worst case vacuum. It definitely happens in the proprietary world. @@michael_tunnell. I think like youve suggested, Manjaro needs to do this right. I like KDE plasmas slider approach at install
Personally I don't have an issue with this but its a shame that this is coming from Manjaro. Its not like Manjaro needs more people to hate it.
RIP Manjaro.
i'll never use it again.
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
Neither will I. I don't trust anyone who collects data opt-out. You ask me politely before any collecting, and I'll consider it. You go behind my back and you're done.
Opt-Out does not equal “behind your back”, they are separate things. It is possible to be Opt-Opt and completely transparent
Good thumbnail
I hope everyone who is cursing Manjaro so much for these don't use an Android or iOS device...
Don't be evil!!. respect people's privacy!. or RIP Manjaro projcet.
How are they not respecting people’s privacy?
Does this effect Mabox distro?
its not in Manjaro yet so not sure but thats up to Mabox devs also please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
@michael_tunnell Thanks. No opinion was formed. I was merely asking if you knew anything about Mabox. No worries.
Makes me glad I've switched away from using Manjaro
Umm... no opt-out telemetry is NOT OK! it will NEVER be OK! I don't use manjaro and I will now never use it!
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
Opt-in by default collection of PII is illegal under the GDPR. Someone who works in marketing/advertising should be well aware of that. It's inherently impossible to anonymize PII or it wouldn't be PII to begin with.
Exactly. This might even get Manjaro into legal trouble here in the EU.
None of the data in question is classified as personal information and therefore GDPR is not applicable.
I just "undoned" Manjaro
Why?
Isn't that going against the GDPR ? I've my doubt that this is legal. Manjaro is run by a german company so I think they technically can't do this. At least not without being opt-in by default.
No, the GDPR is about Personal Identifying Information and none of the data is personally identifying
i hope they learn from microsft and make this disabled by default with maybe apop up to ask to enable it
To me it seems mainline arch is the way to go these days.
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
please dont use manjaro, linux mint is super easy to install
Why? It is also a decent distro. (As long as you don't use the aur, everything remains stable)
@@bhargavjitbhuyan9394 It's just a worse Arch linux really. They hold back packages by 2 weeks to make it more "stable" but in reality, you just get the same bugs as upstream arch, but 2 weeks later. If you want an "easy" arch-based distro, just go with Endeavour, Garuda, Cachyos. There are far better options than Manjaro.
@@bhargavjitbhuyan9394 it's arch on a fragile software set that can't handle different kernels and can't use the AUR
why bother?
endeavouros
I used to love Mankato. This sucks
please watch the video before forming an opinion on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this and I explain why in the video
I'm not happy with this I switched to Linux from Windows in April because of Microsoft behaviour and privacy
I'm using Manjaro and I don't want them to collect my Data
It should be opt In only if you want most people won't notice or fiddle with settings
People don't want their data to be used and sent somewhere 😢😢
So goodbuy Manjaro just switched to Open Suse
I hope Linux won't do the same like Microsoft?
please watch the video before making decisions on what is happening, it's not some Microsoft type thing and it could actually be good for the ecosystem to do this kind of thing
They are only collecting data about your hardware.
@@bhargavjitbhuyan9394 gateway drug to windows level telemetry
@@bhargavjitbhuyan9394 gateway drug to microsoft level telemetry
I think its one thing to make it opt in, not tell your users nor ask you on first boot (or at installation) your preferences (make it opt out there then?) vs just doing something and making your users "figure it out" hopefully they make the right decision.
🐧🐧🐧
Moldjaro needs telemetry because they suck at development.
AI generated thumbnail sucks, I’m out :(
The base of this is AI but I customized it a lot
Actually check out the Wordpress vs WP Engine video on the channel, that’s AI generated too and I like that one. What do you think
Just don't use any arch derivative distro, use arch instead. The only exception to this is artix.
Nothing wrong with Endeavouros, Cachyos, Garuda. It's really only Manjaro that I would never ever recommend.
Russian Troll here - sad to say, but after 5 years of subscription - I see me unsubscribing, as your country has led wars - and therefor I can no longer accept your effort ... :,[
lol 😆